The Auron MacIntyre Show - February 01, 2023


The Persecution of Ricky Vaughn ｜ Guest： James R. Lawrence ｜ 2⧸1⧸23

Topics
vaccine requirements precedent
Hosted by
Auron MacIntyre
Guests
James R. Lawrence
Mentioned
Ricky Vaughn Douglas Mackey Alex Berenson Hillary Clinton James Lawrence Trump Biden George Orwell Alvarez Mackie Doug Enlightened Desmond Jordan Peterson Charlie Sheen Thomas Paine Common Sense Sotomayor Ginsburg COVID-19 Kennedy and 3 more
The Therapeutic State ｜ Guest： Paul Gottfried ｜ 1⧸30⧸23 Tyre Nichols Footage Unmasks the Left’s Ugly Blood Libel ｜ 2⧸2⧸23

Episode Stats


Length

47 minutes

Words per minute

145.19

Word count

6,842

Sentence count

357

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Toxicity

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, we discuss the case of Ricky Vaughn and the implications for freedom of speech on the internet, especially when it comes to the use of the term "voting" in relation to the 2016 election. In this case, the government alleges that Vaughn used a fake account called "Ricky Vaughn" to communicate with potential voters and encourage them to vote for Hillary Clinton.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
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00:01:29.980 Hey, everybody.
00:01:34.200 How's it going?
00:01:34.920 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.
00:01:36.680 I've got a great stream on a topic I think is really important to everyone.
00:01:41.800 It's something that I think is just, it impacts everybody in the United States when it comes
00:01:46.700 to freedom of speech, especially on the internet, but it especially impacts, I think, this community.
00:01:52.260 I know many of you like me started off or are still posting on Twitter often, you know, without your real face or name or anything on there.
00:02:00.380 And you think to yourself, you know, the events that impact people like Ricky Vaughn could impact people like me.
00:02:07.340 So I know it's a story that a lot of people like me, so I know it's a story that I know it's a story that a lot of you have been asking about.
00:02:11.200 Coming on to discuss Ricky Vaughn's case is his attorney, James Lawrence.
00:02:17.360 James, thanks for joining me.
00:02:19.060 Thank you so much for having me.
00:02:20.400 Absolutely.
00:02:21.900 Now, James has served as an attorney with the Trump administration, and he is now defending Ricky Vaughn in this case.
00:02:29.820 We're going to go through a number of different aspects of this.
00:02:32.540 We're going to go in first kind of close and get the general outline of what things look like, what happened, bring people up to speed who maybe aren't familiar.
00:02:39.460 But we're also then going to talk about the wider implications about what this case could mean for everyone's speech online, freedom of speech, the ability to, you know, just have political comedy, these kind of things that everyone just took for granted as part of your right as American online.
00:02:56.100 We're going to be getting to all of that.
00:02:57.940 But I do want people to remember that James is involved in a case that, you know, is ongoing right now.
00:03:03.420 And so there are things that he may not be able to touch on.
00:03:06.740 And so if we get into those areas, he'll just let us know and we'll move on from there.
00:03:11.260 But with that, James, can we go ahead and start out for people who are unfamiliar, who is Ricky Vaughn and why is he in this situation in the first place?
00:03:21.980 So Ricky Vaughn was a Twitter account that was in use at certain points in and around the 2016 election.
00:03:35.260 The account had an avatar that was based on the character from the movie Major League played by Charlie Sheen, shown wearing kind of a cartoonish MAGA hat and other adornments to the overall kind of look and feel of the Twitter page.
00:04:01.300 And this particular account tweeted a number of things throughout the 2016 election cycle that were related to politics.
00:04:13.800 It's memes and satirical analyses and claims in the broader context, really, of what was happening on Twitter in 2016, which was a very much a free for all and people making statements that were.
00:04:32.980 From a certain point of view objectionable or sort of outrageous, I suppose, which is consistent, I think, with the overall point of satire and comedy being a mechanism by which people can use to poke fun at the powers that be at any given time.
00:04:58.100 So with respect to this particular case, Douglas Mackey is alleged by the government to be the person who owned and operated the Ricky Vaughn account.
00:05:15.720 You know, that is what the complaint in the indictment was brought against my client alleges.
00:05:23.120 The government, and this is all part of the public record that I'm citing from and what I'll be discussing here today, but the government, again, alleges that he owned the account and that at certain points in time in the lead up to the 2016 election, engaged in the use of deceptive memes.
00:05:48.860 And one of the memes that's cited in the indictment as the government crafts its overall narrative of its case is that Mr. Mackey, again, alleged to be the owner of the Ricky Vaughn account.
00:06:06.420 And the alleged person who made these tweets tweeted, allegedly, a meme regarding Draft Our Daughters in a way to kind of poke fun at the Clinton campaign.
00:06:26.940 And really to criticize, I would say, the hawkish position of the Clinton campaign on issues like engagement with Russia, for example.
00:06:41.380 So I believe there was an alleged meme that the government says that the Vaughn account tweeted that or on that.
00:06:52.860 But as the 2016 election came closer, the government also alleges that the account tweeted memes related to the method of voting,
00:07:11.740 particularly a meme which contained a picture of an individual and some commentary inviting voters, inviting potential Twitter users to vote by text.
00:07:32.980 And the government alleges that a certain number of people took up that invitation and texted the number.
00:07:43.380 However, they do not allege in the indictment or the complainer in any of the pleadings that have been put forth so far in this case that any one voter actually didn't vote as a result of the meme,
00:07:58.660 but that that that that that the meme was part of a conspiracy to interfere with the constitutional right to vote and the statute that's an issue.
00:08:15.280 And I want to read from the statute that's an issue that the operative language is from.
00:08:24.960 Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 241, and that.
00:08:33.120 Criminalizes conspiracies to, quote unquote, injure, oppress, threaten or intimidate any person with respect to the their exercise of their constitutional rights.
00:08:43.560 In this case, in this case, the government's allegation is the right to to vote.
00:08:48.600 And so citing this meme, the government arrested Mr. Mackey shortly after President Biden took office in January of 2021 under 18 U.S.
00:09:08.080 C. 241, which, again, he's charged with conspiring to violate civil constitutional rights.
00:09:20.980 And and so that's that's that's that's the the background of kind of how how we got here.
00:09:27.600 Now, now the statute itself, I'll just note, was a reconstruction era statute that was passed after the Civil War
00:09:36.640 with the goal of of really securing the rights of newly freed slaves to engage in civil life in the post-Civil War.
00:09:46.060 So and what we're seeing here from the defense's standpoint is a is is an expansion of that statute in a way that it was never originally intended to be expanded,
00:09:59.960 that even though Congress, by the way, and we have argued this in the pleadings, has considered taking action to regulate election misinformation and disinformation.
00:10:15.520 Multiple times multiple bills have been put out to consider doing that, and they've never passed.
00:10:22.420 And yet, again, from from our vantage point here, the government is trying to use the statute to accomplish what could not be accomplished otherwise through the legislative process.
00:10:34.760 That's that's, again, separate and apart from the very troubling First Amendment free speech questions that the prosecution raises.
00:10:43.100 Absolutely. And we're definitely going to get into those.
00:10:45.560 But I want to break down some of the information you just gave everybody, because I think it's really important.
00:10:49.880 So the first thing here is, of course, that Ricky Vaughn, for people who don't know, weren't aware of kind of like online, especially like right wing culture in around the 2016 election.
00:11:01.020 It is, you know, pretty different. You get that. This is where the phrase me mad magic came from. Right.
00:11:06.240 And so there was a lot of people out there, you know, sharing wild and crazy stuff, having a lot of fun, making jokes, a lot of satirical humor, a lot of stuff that's over the top, a lot of gonzo type stuff.
00:11:18.820 And so this is very much the the context in which this happens, which I think is very important, because for people who don't really know what that was like, they don't really understand that this is very much kind of the subculture that existed at the time.
00:11:33.040 And of course, memes were a key part of that. So comedy is a really essential part of this.
00:11:38.640 And so many times people would speak on these political topics, but they're laying on like heavy amounts of irony, different layers of inside jokes.
00:11:48.660 You need to be seven, eight, nine layers deep on some of this stuff to really understand some of the jokes that were being made.
00:11:55.820 And so when people just look at these memes or just look at what's going on, they may not get that context.
00:12:01.080 But it's really essential to know that this is the stuff that allegedly Ricky Vaughn was was kind of posting in to in this environment.
00:12:08.920 Now, the meme, the first one that you cited is kind of hilarious because the draft our daughter's meme, I think, as you pointed out, is poking fun at the fact that the left is not only very hawkish and pro war.
00:12:22.180 Now we can see that very clearly when it comes to the Ukraine, the conflict in Ukraine and everything that's happened since, but also very that the left is comically egalitarian to the point where it would subject women in the United States to compulsory military service under the guise of equality.
00:12:42.740 And so this this is, of course, a joke at the time. This was on nobody's radar.
00:12:47.000 Everyone say, oh, this is ridiculous. But that actually came true. Right. 0.91
00:12:50.940 Like we've actually now had proposals. We've actually had the left making proposals that this actually be an action.
00:12:58.620 So the so so so ironically, Ricky Vaughn there, they're citing something that was prophetic in its comedy, which is even more chilling, because that means that people can't make jokes that that reveal truths that might become something that actually manifests in the real world later on for fear of the government attacking them legally.
00:13:19.320 Well, and just to be clear, I mean, the that that that meme is part of the overall context that I think the government's allegations are setting the interference issue is with respect to the the vote by text.
00:13:36.380 Right. Sure. But yeah, I mean, the larger implications of this prosecution are if.
00:13:45.220 If again, if if if if what the Ricky Vaughn account allegedly tweeted out is actionable from a matter from the perspective of the criminal law in this country.
00:14:01.080 In terms of providing instructions, false instructions, allegedly, as the government asserts in its theory of the case about the method and manner of voting.
00:14:15.220 It's it's not a far attenuated leap to go to policing misinformation, disinformation about candidates themselves and their positions. Right.
00:14:28.960 And the Supreme Court has said in the Alvarez case for justices and an opinion, plurality opinion, six, three decision on the Stolen Valor Act, which criminalized.
00:14:42.340 It's. Individuals falsely claiming that they had served in the military, right, that was a six, three decision by the Supreme Court, who said that could not that wasn't acceptable under the First Amendment and for justices in that case,
00:14:57.900 including Justice Kennedy, which was joined by Justice Ginsburg and Justice Sotomayor was that we don't have a ministry of truth in this country.
00:15:14.460 Right. This is and they, in fact, cited in the plurality opinion to George Orwell's 1984, we don't have a ministry of truth in this country.
00:15:24.660 That that is something that I believe the court wrote something to the effect of it.
00:15:28.520 That's that's that's at odds with our constitutional tradition and the the the Pandora's box, really, that this prosecution represents and the door that we on the defense side of this equation are trying to close is the possibility that this case,
00:15:48.520 again, again, sets a precedent that the government will use to push the boundary further in in in in all kinds of ways that relate to the the the voting process and and and is that and we submit that's not that's not the proper role of the federal government
00:16:12.720 to be involved in to be involved in that kind of activity or really any government under the First Amendment, state, local or federal.
00:16:19.440 And those are the stakes that this case.
00:16:22.800 Raises and and that's why it's important, that's why it matters to anyone, really, regardless of political ideology, left, right, center.
00:16:34.440 It's it's a it's a huge issue that that everyone, all Americans should care about.
00:16:42.720 Yeah. In the case you're citing, I believe the Congress had to rewrite the law in question so that it could only ban the fraud.
00:16:49.500 It couldn't actually ban the claim because, like you said, there's no ministry of truth in the United States, though, again, ironically, actually, they sure did try under the banner of misinformation.
00:16:59.160 Right. They they appointed a a misinformation czar and then disappeared her almost immediately as she continually embarrassed the Biden administration. 1.00
00:17:08.720 Right. Well, and that's and that's part of this overall, this overall world that we're living in.
00:17:15.180 Right. About myths and disinformation.
00:17:17.700 And unfortunately, and I come at it from somebody, as we talked about having litigated against Twitter on behalf of Alex Berenson and Berenson versus Twitter, arguing about Twitter's COVID misinformation policy, misleading information policy and the efforts that were made at various points in time in the pandemic to try to control the spread of misinformation and disinformation.
00:17:45.480 And let's remember that at certain times, Twitter was policing claims that the COVID-19 vaccines did not stop the stop infection or transmission of the disease itself of COVID-19.
00:18:05.040 So, you know, these these are all issues, misinformation, misinformation, these are all very issues that cut across ideology, I would argue, they cut across ideological, the ideological spectrum and really across subject matter, particularly when you think about what happened and what went on with COVID-19 and needing to debate.
00:18:35.040 So the lockdown measures or the lockdown measures or the lockdown measures or masking or vaccine mandates or whatever the the standard position of the government was at the time.
00:18:48.260 Yeah. And YouTube is still policing that. So we may or may not find out if they approve of our current discussion, but you can always catch it on Blaze TV if they take it down, guys.
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00:19:28.280 One of the things that I also wanted to talk about was the nature of the statute that's being exploited in this case, because as you pointed out, this is originally a statute meant to prevent, I think, most directly like violent action or other action actively taken to stop newly freed slaves from voting.
00:19:50.020 So what we're seeing here is a theme that I think we've seen quite often and probably will continue to see in the United States, which is the exploitation of civil rights based law as a way to punish political opponents.
00:20:03.120 And so it seems very clear to me, and of course, you're a lawyer in this case, so I don't know how much you can, but I can say the opinion, so I'll go ahead and air it.
00:20:11.460 It seems very clear that this law is being expanded and directed with the intent of punishing someone who embarrassed Hillary Clinton, a very powerful person, a very well-connected person, whose friends are now most likely involved in operating the Biden administration on it, you know, on behalf of an Alzheimer's patient.
00:20:32.020 And so, you know, that's very likely why this was extended and the implications are very dire because these laws can be wildly exploited as we're seeing now to go after people in ways that were never imaginable.
00:20:48.860 Of course, this law was written entirely without the internet, the concept of memes, that there would ever be satire around this stuff, that this could be mass communicated.
00:20:58.140 That was obviously nothing that came to mind when this law was drafted.
00:21:02.540 They can't, as you pointed out, get the law passed that would do this.
00:21:06.040 They thought about it.
00:21:06.840 They considered it.
00:21:07.800 The language has been drafted at some point or another, but they cannot actually solidify this.
00:21:13.980 And so because they don't have the law on the books they need, they can find a way to go out and exploit an old civil rights law that has nothing to do with the case that's currently being leveled at your client.
00:21:26.320 And they're going to continue to use that to prosecute someone just because they don't like the fact that he humiliated them allegedly online.
00:21:34.740 Well, we, we, we, we have argued the, the, in, in the, and again, I can, I can speak to what's in the public record.
00:21:43.000 Right.
00:21:43.480 We have argued on the defense side that this, this prosecution is, is unprecedented under 18 USE 241 because it's, it's been, it's been directed at physical activities.
00:22:01.900 Right.
00:22:02.460 So for example, interfering with people's right to vote in the context of cutting phone lines or, or otherwise preventing people from getting into the, getting to the polls physically to cast their ballot, not with respect to simply pure, pure, pure speech.
00:22:26.600 Um, so, you know, again, I mean, the, the, the, the law, the law, uh, our, our position is that the law is, is being, you know, is being expanded through the process of, of, of the prosecution.
00:22:42.220 And that there are, there are, there are a number of, of rules that, uh, would counsel against this application in this case.
00:22:52.180 Obviously we've talked about the first amendment being one of them, but another is the, the rule of lenity, which every first year law student learns about in their introductory criminal law class,
00:23:03.900 which is the, to the extent there's any ambiguity in a statute, it's construed against, uh, the government and not in, in favor of, uh, or, um, against, uh, a defendant.
00:23:17.500 So, um, you know, you're, you're, you're, our, our, our, our, our position again, which has been outlined in the briefing in the case is that Congress tried to expand the scope of what is actionable from a, uh, criminal law perspective with respect to misinformation, disinformation.
00:23:40.160 Those proposals, uh, did not go anywhere.
00:23:43.060 And yet here we are, um, the reasons why we're here would be speculative.
00:23:48.640 I can say that the defense, Mr.
00:23:51.480 Mackie, uh, all, all have deep respect for the legal system and for the process that, uh, is, is before us and are grateful for the guarantees and the constitution with, uh, for, for trial by jury.
00:24:08.660 Um, which, which, which, you know, again, Mr.
00:24:13.180 Mr.
00:24:13.500 Mackie is, is, is very grateful for and has faith in.
00:24:17.260 Yeah.
00:24:17.820 It's, uh, would be nice if the DOJ had the same, uh, respect, but let me ask you this.
00:24:23.480 I believe you, you already said no one was harmed by this, right?
00:24:27.160 They're not even alleging that one person was not able to cast their vote due to this action.
00:24:33.140 Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's right.
00:24:35.400 But the government's, uh, the government's view and theory of the case is that they don't have to prove that they, they only have to prove the conspiracy to interfere with the right to vote, regardless of whether or not one actually, uh, voted or not.
00:24:54.440 And again, one can just see how, um, taking, drawing out the implications of that are very troubling and chilling for purposes of freedom of speech.
00:25:08.320 Right.
00:25:08.640 Uh, are, are, are people going to be able to speak freely on broadcasts like this?
00:25:16.780 Are they going to be able to have free and open, um, unfettered debate on really the issues of the day if, if this Pandora's box is open?
00:25:28.280 Uh, and, and, and, and that, that's at the core of this case.
00:25:32.300 It's why this case is so important.
00:25:34.580 Uh, it's, it's why, um, it's why I'm here with you today is because.
00:25:40.360 You know, I, I, I, I, I certainly see, I see the stakes that are, that are at play.
00:25:45.900 And, and I would just say, you know, for your, for your viewers that are there to listen to us right now, if you're interested in, in, in being, um, in assisting with, with the defense, uh, Mr. Mackey has established a defense fund.
00:25:59.520 It's at, um, memedefensefund.com again, memedefensefund.com and you can, you can log on there and learn more.
00:26:10.080 Absolutely. And I know that many people actually were asking me about, you know, being able to help, uh, Mr. Mackey and his defense.
00:26:18.160 I know a lot of people lamented the fact that really there wasn't the, you know, the type of support system necessary in, in place beforehand.
00:26:27.880 Uh, like, like this stuff has kind of grown up a little more now.
00:26:31.000 I think people are more aware of the fact that, you know, you need a support system for people when they run into these kinds of legal challenges, this kind of stuff,
00:26:39.300 because if you don't have that for people, then it makes it much harder for them to fight the necessary battles.
00:26:44.280 So if you guys are interested in that, please go ahead and check out what James just told you about to help out Ricky Vaughn.
00:26:52.880 But, uh, I want to go now into the wider, uh, implications here, right?
00:26:59.240 So as you said, this can have a very chilling effect, especially when it comes to particular types of comedy, right?
00:27:06.860 Like we all are pretty sure, uh, um, you know, again, I'm, I'm, I can speak on this more than you can, but, but we obviously are very sure that the average late night host,
00:27:16.920 the average kind of, uh, you know, uh, liberal who's just going to get up there and spat regime talking points,
00:27:22.800 they can make all the jokes they want about political candidates.
00:27:25.740 They can make all the jokes they want about voting.
00:27:27.720 They can do skits that satirize the process, even if they might mislead on someone and the, you know, the government is never going to come after them.
00:27:35.960 This is very clearly, I believe, uh, targeted, uh, prosecution.
00:27:40.740 And it's done to, with a specific effort to chill, uh, a very effective form of speech was, which are memes.
00:27:48.660 Memes are designed specifically to be very vague, to be very open, to be very, uh, interpretable by their audience.
00:27:56.200 That's kind of what makes the magical.
00:27:58.220 That's what makes the me magic happen that they can spread like wildfire because they contain a core idea, but they aren't, you know, necessarily something that, uh, you know, directs people in a specific way.
00:28:10.220 And so I think that this, the broadness with which they could apply this law will really lock down on a lot of things, but meme comedy in particular, because you can really attach it to almost any aspect of a general meme saying that it could mislead.
00:28:25.060 It could do something.
00:28:25.780 It could bring some kind of doubt into a fact that has now been deemed unquestionable or misrepresent a position of a candidate or something like you had mentioned.
00:28:34.760 And all of a sudden the meme maker is a criminal who could go to jail or face serious fines.
00:28:40.220 Yeah, I, I, you know, again, uh, is it, is it the kind of political power that anyone wants the federal government to wield?
00:28:51.380 And the Supreme court has said, again, I'll, I'll cite the Alvarez case for justices, very powerfully citing to George Orwell's 1984, that our constitutional tradition stands against the concept of a ministry of protest.
00:29:10.220 truth.
00:29:11.220 And, you know, yeah, I mean, comedy, satire, all of these, these tools have typically been used by the, the, the, the less powerful to speak out on, uh, speak out on behalf of, uh, speak out to speak on behalf of the less powerful against the powers that be in any given society.
00:29:37.220 Right.
00:29:38.220 Right.
00:29:39.220 Maybe we can go back from, from, from, uh, historical analogs to, uh, to, to, to, to Aesop's fables.
00:29:46.220 Right.
00:29:47.220 And, and, and, uh, to, uh, other, other, other classic pieces of literature where, uh, satire, meme type literature, right?
00:30:00.220 Memes are, are certainly, uh, they're an internet phenomenon, but not entirely without historical precedent, but, but again, it's, it's, it's a, it's a mechanism and it's a way for less powerful people to speak truth to more powerful people.
00:30:17.220 And our constitution protects that, you know, our first amendment is, uh, designed at its core, right.
00:30:26.220 Right.
00:30:27.220 To protect political speech, right.
00:30:30.220 The, the first amendment isn't, isn't, you know, there to protect, you know, and, and again, this might be a little bit far, far afield, but, you know, new dancing, for example, right.
00:30:43.220 Right.
00:30:44.220 Or, or pornography.
00:30:45.220 I mean, the, the, the core of it is to be able to engage in conversations about the big issues of the day.
00:30:56.220 And yes, if, if, if this Pandora's box is opened, then the, the, the chilling effect from, from our vantage point in our view is, is significant.
00:31:11.220 And again, it's, it, it, it, it, it's not an ideological issue.
00:31:17.220 It's something that cuts across ideological lines and should be of concern to each and every American.
00:31:24.220 Absolutely.
00:31:25.220 And I think it also touches again on something that's near and dear to my audience, which is internet anonymity.
00:31:31.220 Now, obviously that's not the core part of this case, but I think a lot of people relate to it because Ricky Vaughn is just an average guy.
00:31:39.220 I believe Ricky or I believe Douglas Mackey was like a local journalist or something before, before all this is just a, just, just an average person, you know, allegedly posting online under this account.
00:31:54.220 And, you know, we just had a guy like Jordan Peterson today on Twitter, ranting against internet anonymity, how important it is to, to get rid of internet anonymity, how, you know, dangerous it is to have people speaking their minds in public.
00:32:09.220 You know, and I think it's really critical.
00:32:12.220 I think it's really important for people in positions of power, especially on the right to acknowledge the importance of having voices out there that have the ability to make these controversial statements that have the ability to make this satire, to make this comedy, to craft the memes that break this conditioning, that break this censorship.
00:32:33.220 Because so much of the Trump campaign was about Trump saying things that other people wouldn't say.
00:32:40.220 And so much about the accounts like Ricky Vaughn are their abilities to post things that otherwise maybe wouldn't get said.
00:32:48.220 And the fact that internet anonymity allows that.
00:32:52.220 And we see the government specifically going after people like this.
00:32:55.220 I mean, you know, there was that one guy who did the Trump beating up CNN meme and the CNN like completely doxed and destroyed this guy's life.
00:33:03.220 Now, this is, you know, with Ricky Vaughn, this is a whole nother level with the government is actually taking criminal action, not just doxing, but trying to completely destroy someone in a way that, like you said, will absolutely chill this ability of internet anons to speak out and do so from a position that allows them to say true things that no one else would really express.
00:33:23.220 Well, to your point about anonymity, right, let's, let's just think about that for a second.
00:33:33.220 You know, and again, just setting to the side, the government's allegation is that Mr. Mackey owned and operated and tweeted under Ricky Vaughn, and that is just an allegation.
00:33:48.220 But with respect to anonymity, when you think about the architects of our Constitution, right, the Federalist papers were written under, right, they were written anonymously under, under pen names.
00:34:05.680 Publius, right?
00:34:06.400 Right, right, or, right, or, you know, the, the anti-Federalist papers, when you think about people like Brutus and Federal Farmer and the rest of them.
00:34:15.760 I mean, so, so there's a great history and tradition in this country of people using anonymity to, to, as a shield to be able to air views that they otherwise wouldn't be able to air without fear of reprisal, whether that's governmental or, or, you know, or private.
00:34:38.760 And, and, and, and it's, it's, it's an important thing, right?
00:34:41.940 You know, not everybody has the, the wherewithal and the ability to, to enter into the public arena.
00:34:48.320 You and I, you and I are blessed to be able to have the conversation that we're having right now.
00:34:53.900 And I'm showing my face as James Lawrence, right?
00:35:01.540 You know, I, I, I, I, I can do that.
00:35:05.140 You can have the show that you're having, but a lot of people don't have that, that ability without putting themselves unduly in a, in a, in a, in a bad, in a bad position.
00:35:17.080 So, you know, anonymity, and this is just more of, you know, a general comment, more than anything else is a very, it's a very important thing.
00:35:26.080 And it goes right back to the very foundations of this country and the constitution and, and, and the pay and the very papers that the Supreme Court routinely cites as they're explicating what these guarantees mean to us now in 2023.
00:35:45.640 Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's so important is, is just, just the very papers that we're, we're talking about, the very concepts, the very legal protections, the very philosophical grounding on which we're basing our arguments were often first argued by newspaper anons, right?
00:36:02.520 I believe Thomas Paine originally published Common Sense under Un-Englishman, you know?
00:36:08.140 So this is deeply in the core, in the history and tradition of the United States, in its founding documents, in its belief, in the ability to speak and the belief of people to shield themselves, not just from government reprisal, as you point out, but very importantly, personal and private reprisal.
00:36:23.840 Because increasingly, these corporations, as we find out, and, you know, I think you have some experience with, with the Alex and Berenson case, these, these private institutions are, in effect, arms of the government.
00:36:36.300 They do censor on its behalf. We know this from the Twitter files. We know this explicitly, you don't have to guess about it at this point.
00:36:42.100 And so the fact that, that, that, you know, it's just a private company that silences you or fires you, or keeps you from doing banking, you know, these are all things that don't matter, because they are doing so in many ways, you know, directly on the behest of the government or in, or in league with the government. 0.85
00:37:00.020 And so this distinction is pretty ridiculous. And I think it's really important for everybody who has any kind of voice, any kind of leadership, to support internet anonymity, because like you said, it does go right back to the founding of the country and the core of the documents that they're talking about defending in the first place.
00:37:15.560 Well, I mean, and to, and to your point about private reprisals, and again, I would acknowledge this is a difficult issue for people on the right to, to grapple with, because the right, certainly conservative movement, having been a veteran of it myself, and kind of growing up in it, is, is you want to be able to vindicate the rights of business owners and private property owners, and property is so important.
00:37:45.560 And so, so, so there's, there's tension, where you're, you're wanting to use power of the state, power of the government to, to police private reactions to speech, right?
00:38:02.120 So, you know, there, there, there, there is a tension there. But, you know, it's interesting. I think of the meme on the issue that you just raised of the, of the foot.
00:38:15.560 The, the, the, that's Trump trampling down on the, on the, you know, the, the don't tread on me snake with different corporate logos emblazoned on the, on the ankle. I don't know if you've seen the meme that I'm talking about.
00:38:27.920 Oh, sure. Yeah.
00:38:28.520 But it, it, it goes to the point that, you know, it, the conservative reaction or the rights reaction to that kind of activity is, is sometimes leaves, leaves some to somewhat to be, something to be desired, I suppose.
00:38:46.580 Absolutely. All right, guys. Well, I think we've talked about most of the core issues around the case. If you have any questions, of course, James Lawrence can only speak on certain things.
00:38:57.340 He is, he does have to, you know, make sure that he's kind of in accordance with everything with the law and whatnot. So, you know, we're happy to answer as much as we can, but there might be certain things that we can't touch on.
00:39:10.600 But just as we are wrapping up, James, could you, for people again, just give that place, if they want to support, you know, Douglas Mackey in his defense, how can they do that?
00:39:21.360 Yes. Happy to do that, Aron. So again, to learn more about the defense fund, you can log on to memedefensefund.com. Again, memedefensefund.com.
00:39:34.540 And there's an opportunity for you to donate there if you're so inclined. In terms of other things that people can do to support, I've said this previously, and I'll say it again and reiterate, I do believe that James chapter 15, or excuse me, James chapter 5, verse 16 is true, that the prayers of the righteous availeth much.
00:39:59.060 And so I would ask for anyone that's concerned about this case or interested in this case to pray about it, to pray for Doug, to pray for the defense team, to pray really that justice will be done.
00:40:16.160 In this case, it's probably the most important thing, I would argue, that one can do. And certainly, you know, as for Doug, he has, he has faith in God, he has faith in the jury system that our founders secured for us and the Bill of Rights.
00:40:35.280 And I will just say that from my vantage point, it's a privilege to stand and fight on his behalf and be a part of this defense team.
00:40:49.000 Absolutely. I'm glad it's getting done. Like I said, it's a critical case. It's something that shouldn't, people shouldn't just let this go by the wayside. This is such an, you know, again, this is me saying this, not James, but this is such a horrific abuse of government power.
00:41:04.000 This is so obviously politically motivated. This is obviously so petty. This is such a manipulation of legal code in an attempt to silence and destroy and chill free speech in the United States.
00:41:17.180 The fact that this case even exists is a absolute travesty. It should shock the conscience of the United States and the government officials involved. And absolutely, please pray for Douglas Mackey's defense, because he should absolutely be exonerated. This is just insanely ridiculous.
00:41:34.760 Now, I did want to ask one more thing before we go. And I don't know how much you can talk about it. So feel free to just tell me you can't, if there's certain aspects you can't. But I have heard that it has been reported that the judge in this case has said that they want a fully vaccinated jury. Is there any word on the truth of that? 0.90
00:41:57.900 Actually, there's an update on that.
00:42:27.900 Also, thank you for your question.
00:42:31.840 There's also a categorical bar on unvaccinated jurors could have a disparate impact on the basis of race and religious affiliation. But in any event, the court ordered today clarified that the court will not require a fully vaccinated jury to be infaneled.
00:42:50.920 Uh, and, and so, um, unvaccinated individuals, uh, could, could potentially be part of that,
00:43:01.440 uh, that pool.
00:43:03.160 And that's probably all I can say about it.
00:43:05.300 Okay.
00:43:05.380 Well, that's, that's good to hear because that was a very concerning development.
00:43:08.500 Of course, I'm sure many people understand that at this point, vaccination status is
00:43:13.820 considered by most a badge of loyalty.
00:43:16.240 It's just like face masks.
00:43:17.740 Again, these are my words, not, not anyone involved legal case, but these actions are
00:43:23.300 being taken specifically to weed out people who otherwise would agree with the wrong type
00:43:29.480 of people.
00:43:29.980 This is why VAX requirements were pushed in the military to purge it of people with wrong
00:43:34.860 think.
00:43:35.300 This is why they're being pushed in all kinds of things.
00:43:38.220 Uh, they, they try to push them in corporate corporations, why they try to push them in
00:43:41.900 all these different organizations because it weeds out people, the wrong opinions, people
00:43:45.080 with their own backgrounds, people who think the wrong way.
00:43:47.920 And if that can be exploited in the legal system, if you can impanel juries specifically
00:43:52.920 based, you could, uh, based on their vaccine vaccination status, you can make it far more
00:43:57.580 likely to ensure the outcome that you're looking for, especially when trying political dissidents.
00:44:02.460 And so that's a very dangerous precedent.
00:44:04.360 So, uh, that, that's just something that I hope is, is not used in the future.
00:44:09.040 And just to be clear that, that, that, uh, rule was not promulgated by the court in this
00:44:15.680 particular case.
00:44:16.600 That's the, the, the, the rule in, in prior cases.
00:44:21.300 And, you know, again, we, we, we, uh, respect the court immensely.
00:44:27.460 We respect the process and we're grateful, uh, again, for the jury system and the opportunity
00:44:36.620 that, uh, Mr. Mackey and his defense team will have in the middle of March to put, to
00:44:43.120 put on his case in this very important case.
00:44:46.860 Absolutely.
00:44:47.600 All right, guys.
00:44:48.320 Uh, we do have one question here real quick.
00:44:51.000 Let me grab that.
00:44:52.860 Enlightened Desmond here for $20 in, uh, Canada.
00:44:56.220 Thank you very much, sir.
00:44:57.080 There's also the issue of political anonymity and candidate.
00:45:00.260 You can't become a judge without disclosing social media.
00:45:03.400 You will never be before a judge who shares our moral views in private and can interpret
00:45:09.380 laws accordingly.
00:45:11.020 Yes.
00:45:11.280 Very interesting, uh, that, that basically there's a requirement where you would have to
00:45:16.700 be able to vet a judge by their theoretically, uh, anonymous post that could be, uh, applied
00:45:24.260 to multiple different things.
00:45:25.700 Obviously, uh, government service, uh, ability to work in law enforcement, military, all kinds
00:45:30.520 of stuff.
00:45:30.920 And so having this kind of retroactive ability to, uh, force people to compel, you know,
00:45:36.300 compel them to air, uh, you know, uh, anonymous speech after the fact means that you could
00:45:43.040 secure a system in which no one with kind of these wrong thinking views is able to enter
00:45:49.440 into these positions of power, which is, is a dangerous precedent as well.
00:45:52.680 I'm not familiar with, uh, Canada and its laws, but if light and despot is correct, then obviously
00:45:58.820 that could be very concerning.
00:46:00.880 All right, guys, I think we are all done here.
00:46:04.280 Uh, want to go ahead and thank James again for coming on.
00:46:09.100 It was very good to get this update.
00:46:10.880 Very important issue.
00:46:11.800 I'm sure everyone is very glad to know more about this incredibly important case and its
00:46:16.080 implications.
00:46:17.040 Again, if you want to go ahead and help out Douglas Mackey, uh, the prayers and donations
00:46:23.100 are very much appreciated.
00:46:25.000 I'm sure they really would appreciate that.
00:46:28.720 Finally, uh, let me just make sure.
00:46:30.580 Yep.
00:46:30.740 We've got all of our super chats.
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00:47:01.800 Thank you for coming on guys.
00:47:03.400 Thanks to James once again.
00:47:04.760 And as always, we will talk to you next time.