The Auron MacIntyre Show - The Prophetic Brilliance of 'Brazil' ｜ Guest： Radical Liberation ｜ 4⧸3⧸24

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00:00:30.680 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:32.260 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.880 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.700 So a lot of us have seen these dystopian movies.

00:00:41.240 There's a trend of them coming out.

00:00:42.920 They predict the downfall of civilization.

00:00:45.820 Some horrific future.

00:00:47.800 But one of the ones that I think gets passed over because it was a little bit quirkier,

00:00:51.900 is kind of more of a comedy, a little more British, is Terry Gilliam's Brazil.

00:00:57.280 And I think it's an amazing movie because it doesn't just give us a dystopian future.

00:01:02.620 It specifically looks at the bureaucratic aspect of what would happen.

00:01:07.880 It predicts much of the kind of bureaucratic malaise and the terrible, quiet desperation that many people feel when they're trapped in the kind of world that we have today.

00:01:18.000 And so coming on to discuss that great film with me is Stephen Carson.

00:01:22.380 He's the host of the Radical Liberation podcast.

00:01:25.600 Stephen, thanks for coming on, man.

00:01:27.480 Thank you.

00:01:28.360 Yeah, you know, I just thought of this phrase, Aaron.

00:01:31.760 It's Brazil is the deep state dystopia, right?

00:01:35.180 It's the dystopia that we can connect to from our own experience.

00:01:39.080 Yeah, absolutely.

00:01:39.820 Again, it's one of those that I think in some ways, I wouldn't say understated because the movie obviously is very flamboyant at moments.

00:01:47.620 But like I said, it really captures the way that you are stuck inside of this machine.

00:01:53.060 You feel hopeless.

00:01:54.180 You feel like there's very little escape.

00:01:57.220 And Terry Gilliam is a director who's very visually gifted.

00:02:00.460 The story of this film is not particularly complicated, but the events, the way they're depicted, very much capture the essence of that experience.

00:02:11.280 I know you're a big fan of the director, so I want to go ahead and dive into his general style and then the specifics of what makes this movie so great.

00:02:19.640 But before we do that, guys, let me tell you a little bit about ISI.

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00:03:40.220 ISI is here to educate the next generation of great Americans.

00:03:43.780 To learn more, go to ISI.org.

00:03:46.720 That's ISI.org.

00:03:48.460 All right, so before we dive into Brazil itself, let's talk a little bit about its director, because I think Terry Gilliam is a guy who has a very specific style.

00:03:59.620 Like I said, it's incredibly unique.

00:04:01.800 That's one of the things that lends this movie part of its genius, because it communicates so much of the dystopia in a visual manner.

00:04:09.240 And it's interesting, because most people probably just know him as the other guy from Monty Python, right?

00:04:15.900 It's not John Cleese from Monty Python.

00:04:19.460 He's one of these guys.

00:04:20.460 He had a couple of movies early on that were aimed at more of a mainstream audience, I think, with things like Time Bandits.

00:04:28.940 I've seen a few of his movies.

00:04:30.640 Probably Twelve Monkeys is the other big commercially successful one most people would be familiar with.

00:04:35.540 But he feels like the kind of guy that, you know, he kind of goes into hiding for five years and then emerges to make a weird movie and then goes back underground if he sees his shadow.

00:04:46.340 So can you talk a little bit about Gilliam and his kind of movie and directing style?

00:04:52.200 Yeah, so Gilliam was part of the Monty Python crew, those guys.

00:04:58.900 And he was involved with some of their films, right?

00:05:02.220 Like Monty Python, The Holy Grail, Life of Brian, Meaning of Life.

00:05:05.740 He directed at least two of them, I think.

00:05:10.580 And Time Bandits, I view, is sort of transitional.

00:05:14.980 I love it.

00:05:16.000 I recommend it.

00:05:17.240 I've shown it to my kids.

00:05:19.560 It's kind of transitional.

00:05:20.880 It feels a bit more like a Monty Python film.

00:05:23.380 It's got kind of like sketches, little sort of pieces you could watch by themselves, right?

00:05:28.660 Sort of a series of sketches where they're bouncing around in history.

00:05:32.260 But you start to see Gilliam finding his own way.

00:05:38.100 It's not quite a Monty Python film.

00:05:40.260 It's not quite a Gilliam film.

00:05:41.980 With Brazil, which is his next film after, yeah, after Time Bandits, this is now Gilliam finding his voice.

00:05:51.660 And after this, his films, I think, are just brilliant.

00:05:55.420 The greatness begins with Brazil, and it just keeps going through his other films.

00:06:01.180 Yeah, so Gilliam is one of my two favorite directors, along with David Lynch, the American director, David Lynch.

00:06:11.300 And one of the things I find in common between them is an emphasis on dreams.

00:06:15.380 If you've ever seen Twin Peaks, which, if you haven't, do it.

00:06:21.020 If you haven't seen the Twin Peaks series, there's a big emphasis on dreams.

00:06:25.640 He's using dreams.

00:06:27.160 Special Agent Cooper is using dreams to actually help solve the mystery, right?

00:06:32.900 So dreams are actually a part of the plot.

00:06:35.080 Well, in Brazil, dreams are about as far forward as they are in any of Gilliam or Lynch's work.

00:06:45.780 The dreams are a major part of how we know what is inside the heart of the main character, right?

00:06:53.080 Because when he's in the real world, when he's not dreaming, he's kind of a drone stuck in a bureaucratic world.

00:07:01.800 He seems a bit hapless, you know, kind of pushed around.

00:07:05.420 And he's starting to maybe find that he, throughout the plot, he's starting to find that he has things he cares about, wants to fight for.

00:07:14.240 But in his dreams, he's a hero, right?

00:07:18.020 He is the center of the dream.

00:07:20.160 And these are not nightmares.

00:07:21.680 These are heroic dreams.

00:07:23.580 Fantasy.

00:07:24.440 His dreams are like fantasy, you know, like the genre.

00:07:29.520 Fantasy the genre, like think Tolkien or something, right?

00:07:31.920 He's filled with flying and fighting and up in the sky.

00:07:37.580 He's broken out.

00:07:38.820 He's out of the box in his dreams, right?

00:07:41.260 Yeah, he looks like Ziggy Stardust with giant angel wings flying around, right?

00:07:45.520 Like it's a radically, it's radically juxtaposed to his existence as, like you said, this cog in the machine of this giant bureaucratic state.

00:07:55.280 And that definitely shows, again, I think it very much captures that quiet desperation that a lot of people feel when they're stuck in corporate jobs.

00:08:04.620 I mean, The Matrix does this in a way, obviously.

00:08:08.520 It's famous for breaking you out of The Matrix and Neo's in this, you know, very boring office job doing this coding or whatever.

00:08:16.140 But Brazil does it in, again, a far more fantastic way.

00:08:20.180 It feels almost like a Dio album or, you know, some kind of power metal album art as he's flying around trying to free the princess from these, you know, from these evil people and everything.

00:08:31.720 It definitely evokes a much different spirit.

00:08:35.640 It's not all this slick 90s stuff.

00:08:37.800 It definitely has that 80s fantasy, you know, willow or something like that feel to it involved in there.

00:08:45.860 So let's go ahead and start at the beginning, you know, to kind of set the stage for people.

00:08:51.920 The film begins with one of these dream sequences.

00:08:56.500 So we kind of know what's going on in his head.

00:09:00.780 But then we also see this extremely oppressive and very British bureaucratic world.

00:09:08.880 You know, the world that we are introduced to is one that is, there's lots of,

00:09:15.300 the first thing I notice is lots of duct work.

00:09:18.960 Duct work is everywhere in this film. 0.94

00:09:21.120 Like the hilarious thing about the duct work is it's this industrial grade.

00:09:25.620 It's very ugly and it's strewn through everything.

00:09:27.860 So even when you're in fancy restaurants, like we get a scene where he's supposed to be eating in this fancy restaurant with his mother and everything.

00:09:35.620 There's still this duct work just coming out of the bottom of what is supposed to be these fancy tables and strewn throughout everywhere.

00:09:42.640 So it's just very ugly and oppressive.

00:09:44.880 And when, you know, when we look at the technology, there's lots of technology everywhere.

00:09:50.820 But in a way, it's like, it's like the technology, like someone from the 1950s would imagine what technology would look like in the future.

00:10:00.260 Right.

00:10:00.660 It's got, there's computers, but they all look like typewriters and they have these giant magnifying glasses.

00:10:06.360 So things are technologically advanced, but they're in a very particular, ugly, industrial way.

00:10:12.940 Right.

00:10:13.980 Yeah.

00:10:15.420 It's making me think of the cartoonist, Krom, who, when he draws a street, he really brings forward all the telephone wires and the, you know, cables running around and stuff like that.

00:10:27.380 But it's like that, right, when you're in the world of Brazil, the infrastructure is almost cartoonishly exaggerated, right, with the duct work everywhere.

00:10:40.840 It's so that you can't ignore that you're sort of shrinking down in the midst of all this infrastructure that sort of oppresses you.

00:10:49.160 And an important plot point, you can't touch it.

00:10:52.780 You can't touch the duct work or, you know, you got to get the right licensed people and fill out the right forms or you are toast.

00:11:00.060 They will crush you.

00:11:02.140 Yeah.

00:11:02.340 We see early on that there, the kind of how the bureaucracy is brutal towards people and cares very little about them.

00:11:11.780 Well, like you said, just burying them under this stuff.

00:11:15.000 So the things that sets the events in motion and guys, spoiler alert for a movie that is literally as old as I am.

00:11:22.100 You know, it's a very old movie.

00:11:23.780 So, you know, if you haven't seen it by now, fix that.

00:11:27.160 But we're going to be talking about the plot here.

00:11:29.160 We have to.

00:11:30.320 So so what sets the events in motion is that, you know, the basically the torture orders that come up for dissidents inside the bureaucracy are typed out in these old style typewriters that automatically print out.

00:11:42.920 And one of the guys is trying to smash a bug.

00:11:45.800 Right.

00:11:45.980 There's like this comedic scene because the whole thing is it is a satire while also being extremely dark at the same time.

00:11:52.980 And so there's this kind of comedic scene where the guy is trying to stack all this really cheap bureaucratic furniture on top of each other so he can kill the one fly in his tiny office that's bothering him.

00:12:03.320 And the fly drops onto the typewriter and messes up the type and it misses it by one letter.

00:12:09.240 And so after, you know, this absurd scene of this guy trying to go ahead and, you know, kind of get this fly, we get a hit squad that is coming after the guy who just got the wrong order.

00:12:21.720 And so just this average British man with his family sitting there watching Christmas die.

00:12:27.100 Yeah. 0.85

00:12:27.420 And they cut a hole and they slide in and this whole SWAT team shows up and, you know, threatening to murder and murder him.

00:12:33.840 And they bag him up.

00:12:35.040 They put a hood over his head and take him away.

00:12:38.120 Yeah.

00:12:38.600 Right.

00:12:38.840 Yeah.

00:12:38.980 And then the best part is, you know, at the end of this whole thing, his, you know, traumatized wife has to, like, sign a form in triplicate.

00:12:46.360 And, you know, the bureaucrat comes in and is like, no, you have to press down harder.

00:12:50.460 Make sure that we get the, you know, we get the signature traced in so that you have a receipt for the murder of your husband.

00:12:57.680 Right, right, right.

00:12:58.520 Yeah, because they have to pay for their own execution or something.

00:13:05.560 It comes out of their account, which is the next plot point.

00:13:08.780 Yeah.

00:13:09.380 Yeah.

00:13:09.680 And so that's kind of the world we're set in.

00:13:12.900 We actually, I should say, the movie actually starts with a little vignette of an absurd kind of Christmas commercial.

00:13:20.180 And as people are pushing the cart by during the absurd kind of very British commercial, trying to sell some insane product on a wall full of TVs for Christmas, the whole thing explodes, right?

00:13:34.400 Like, there's a whole, there's explosion.

00:13:36.140 So we know this is a world that is very, is very regimented, very depressed and oppressively bureaucratic.

00:13:44.620 But we also know there's, like, terrorism happening in the background, right, from that visualization.

00:13:50.640 Yeah.

00:13:50.840 And I wonder on how much that resonates now.

00:13:53.820 I remember revisiting Brazil around the 9-11 era and feeling like, wow, Gillian was a prophet.

00:14:02.300 Yes, terrorism.

00:14:03.580 And, you know, we're all being oppressed in the name of terror, you know, terrorism and stuff.

00:14:08.000 And how much is the government, like, kind of behind it in a way, you know?

00:14:12.560 So all these thoughts were brought up by Brazil where, you know, to make it comically absurd, things blow up and everybody just goes about their business almost as if nothing happened. 0.97

00:14:25.940 They just kind of sweep a little bit and move on, you know?

00:14:28.620 Like, this is, you know, the implication being that these terror incidents are just happening all the time and just people go about their lives, you know?

00:14:36.160 Yeah, again, that's another absurdist thing that gets introduced in the fancy restaurant scene where they're all sitting there trying to eat their fancy food, which isn't.

00:14:45.180 It's gross.

00:14:45.820 They have to pick from, like, a cheap McDonald's-style menu.

00:14:51.840 You have to say the number.

00:14:53.360 You can't tell me you want a steak.

00:14:54.680 You have to pick the fast food number, even though we're in a fast food restaurant.

00:14:57.860 And then they just get, like, a slop of goop that has the picture of the actual dish on top of it.

00:15:03.400 But during this whole thing, you know, that scene that everything explodes and there's lots of terrorism and everyone is, you know, the waiters are kind of embarrassed.

00:15:11.140 Like, all the people eating there are like, oh, you can't get rid of the terrorists as if there's, like, a homeless man sitting in front of the whole thing.

00:15:18.440 And you wonder how much of that is supposed to, is, like, a reflection of the British experience of, kind of, the World War II bombings, right?

00:15:27.320 You know, the keep on and carry on thing where we're supposed to just keep consuming and act like everything's normal, even though things are exploding around us.

00:15:36.040 Yeah, and it's sort of a bomb, what do they call it, bomb shelter humor or whatever, right?

00:15:39.600 Right.

00:15:39.840 Sort of carrying that tradition forward.

00:15:42.620 Yeah.

00:15:42.800 So, we have our main character and he gets introduced to this whole thing because he works in, like, the information department.

00:15:52.400 He's got to file a check somewhere, right?

00:15:54.760 Like, the check has to be written to the family of the guy who ended up dying in his interrogation for being a terrorist, even though he wasn't a terrorist, right?

00:16:04.020 Right.

00:16:04.460 And so, he, you know, and we find out that.

00:16:08.560 Yeah, the main, the issue is that the main character realizes that there's been a mistake.

00:16:13.700 Right.

00:16:14.100 And that, you know, like, it's not lining up.

00:16:16.700 The name of the person who got snatched and the name of the person who he's supposed to be charging for it or crediting back, they're not the same name.

00:16:24.300 They're off by one letter, as you explained, right?

00:16:27.300 Yeah, and that's the whole terrifying thing for them is that the bureaucracy is supposed to be perfect.

00:16:33.120 Like, one of the propaganda posters, because we get a lot of these 1984 style propaganda posters throughout the film.

00:16:39.900 And one of them is that information makes you free.

00:16:43.200 That is one of their big things is we have all the information.

00:16:47.360 We have all the experts.

00:16:49.360 We know all the answers, right?

00:16:51.420 And so, this is a very scientific, you know, people today will recognize all of these claims, right?

00:16:57.260 We have a very scientifically perfect system that has been measured out.

00:17:01.740 The experts are in charge.

00:17:03.660 And because we have all the data and we have all the science and, you know, the science is always correct, then any idea that the bureaucracy would make a mistake is ridiculous. 0.85

00:17:13.580 It's de facto, you know, ridiculous. 0.60

00:17:16.060 And so, the fact that he is... 0.93

00:17:17.060 We have studies.

00:17:18.800 We have studies.

00:17:19.640 So, don't worry about them, man.

00:17:20.700 Right, yeah, just trust the science.

00:17:22.520 It's fine.

00:17:23.400 And so, the fact that his boss, you know, he finds this mistake and his boss just melts down that, you know, how would we ever fix this, right?

00:17:33.440 Like, this is the end.

00:17:35.000 We're all done.

00:17:35.840 We're all fired.

00:17:36.500 And he wants to, his immediate instinct, his boss is, shh, hush, quiet, you know, like, don't let anyone know that there's been a mistake, right?

00:17:45.680 We've got to just, we've got to cover it up.

00:17:48.060 Right.

00:17:48.340 And so, he, as this guy who wants to escape, you know, this kind of oppressive bureaucracy at any moment, he goes ahead and volunteers to drive, right?

00:17:58.580 Like, I'll go out, even though this is something they never do, I'll go drive and deliver this check.

00:18:03.700 And when he does...

00:18:05.260 Hand deliver.

00:18:06.600 And I didn't think about this, Aaron, but this is, he's not thinking about it this way yet, right?

00:18:11.840 But this is a moment of him kind of breaking free of the machine a little bit, right?

00:18:16.400 He's deviating from processes and what's been designed.

00:18:20.360 And he's, instead of doing a bureaucratic process, he is going and going to make human contact.

00:18:26.760 And he's going to actually interact with these people personally, not through a process, right?

00:18:33.340 Exactly.

00:18:33.860 Yeah.

00:18:34.020 Though the woman doesn't have the bank account she's supposed to have. 1.00

00:18:37.000 And so, they can't just do the impersonal transaction to the widow.

00:18:40.420 Normally, they would just, you know, and it's some absurd amount.

00:18:43.640 It's like 30 bucks.

00:18:45.280 That's the thing.

00:18:46.120 Like, your husband is murdered.

00:18:47.560 We owe you $30, right?

00:18:49.660 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:50.220 Like, you know, so it's some absurd amount.

00:18:52.560 And normally, they would just mail this $30 check.

00:18:54.740 But it's funny because one of the reasons I wanted to watch this movie was someone I knew was having an issue like this with the IRS, where their grandmother had died.

00:19:04.680 And they were, like, in this long six-month battle trying not to get, you know, not, you know, to figure out what to do with a $100 check.

00:19:13.180 The IRS simply would not stop calling.

00:19:15.000 They're like, whatever.

00:19:15.640 I don't care about the $100.

00:19:17.000 Like, this is, you know.

00:19:18.040 Yeah, let it go.

00:19:19.040 Yeah, yeah.

00:19:19.380 So, it's like, oh, yeah.

00:19:20.960 So, yeah.

00:19:21.440 This is literally the world we live in.

00:19:23.480 It's very much the case.

00:19:24.840 Right, yep.

00:19:25.560 And I love when he's driving.

00:19:27.120 Again, so much of this is communicated in the visual with Gil.

00:19:32.800 But when he's driving, the billboards on the roads are on both sides.

00:19:36.880 It's just a wall.

00:19:38.040 There is no, you can't see any of the landscape.

00:19:40.240 All you can see is billboards.

00:19:41.660 Yeah, yeah.

00:19:41.980 Right.

00:19:43.060 Yeah, so there's never this moment where you go from your high-rise apartment building where you can't see anything but the city.

00:19:50.600 And then, you know, you go to the office where you can't see anything but, you know, these ugly duct work everywhere.

00:19:56.660 And then, even when you drive to some other part of the world, you are always stuck inside this tunnel of advertisement.

00:20:05.460 Right.

00:20:05.580 Yeah, and in his dreams, he is in the sky, in the clouds, among trees, right?

00:20:13.540 He's out of this inhuman, industrial, bureaucratic, soulless environment.

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00:20:51.180 Absolutely.

00:20:52.140 So when he finally arrives there, he discovers that the woman from his dreams, that he's been dreaming about, actually lives upstairs.

00:21:01.880 She's been complaining the whole time.

00:21:06.060 We start to see her trying to figure out what's going on with this poor man who's been drug away.

00:21:12.860 And so he discovers that she's upstairs, but he can't get to her.

00:21:16.280 And eventually she starts showing up to the records department he's at because she wants to file.

00:21:21.060 Oh, there's been a false arrest, this kind of thing.

00:21:23.020 And so that's how he figures out.

00:21:25.160 She's trying to help this family who lost the husband, the father of the family, and she's trying to intervene as a neighbor.

00:21:32.380 Right.

00:21:32.680 And she goes again through this very DMV-like process where she goes to one department like,

00:21:38.200 sorry, you haven't stamped the form of the arrest receipt.

00:21:41.500 We can't pull any of the information.

00:21:43.740 You have to go to the other one.

00:21:44.700 I've already been to that department.

00:21:46.620 I can't, you know, they're not allowed to talk about that until you've seen.

00:21:49.580 And so she's running around this, you know, this whole kind of gerbil, you know, terrarium thing, trying to figure out how to get into a department.

00:21:59.400 And he's like trapped up against the glass, constantly chasing her, you know, getting stuck in elevators that go out and people put, you know, signs that it can't be fixed for the next two weeks because they haven't filed the paperwork as they're like going around this whole time.

00:22:14.500 And she's not submissive to this whole system, right?

00:22:18.000 I mean, she's trying to work with it out of necessity, but she clearly is not trusting the process.

00:22:25.960 She screams at people. 0.99

00:22:27.700 She's emotional.

00:22:29.000 She isn't just like, okay, I'll go get in that line now.

00:22:32.500 She's angry.

00:22:34.340 She's alive, right?

00:22:37.360 Yeah.

00:22:37.700 And that's absolutely one of the things that draws him to her because, you know, in the other scenes, for instance, again, with that fancy restaurant scene,

00:22:46.860 his mother, who is well-to-do, she, she, he's a low-level bureaucrat, but he obviously should have been more.

00:22:54.780 That's one of the themes of the film is he was supposed to want to climb up in the bureaucracy, but he's just interested in having his daydreams, right?

00:23:02.620 He doesn't, he doesn't want to, he doesn't like this world.

00:23:05.180 He doesn't want to advance in it.

00:23:06.100 He doesn't want to play the game.

00:23:07.180 In particular, he has turned down a promotion because he didn't want the additional responsibility or whatever.

00:23:14.160 Yeah.

00:23:14.600 Exactly.

00:23:15.200 And that becomes very important later on in the storyline.

00:23:18.680 And so when he shows up, you know, the mother is disappointed.

00:23:22.780 She wants to get him to take this promotion.

00:23:26.080 He gets angry and he's refusing it.

00:23:27.580 But they're trying to set him up with the daughter of one of the, one of his mother's friends.

00:23:33.460 And she is this sheepish, you know, she, she's involved in the whole thing. 0.63

00:23:38.860 And so this woman who's fiery and fighting back and, you know, and has that life, has the animation, is coming from outside the system.

00:23:46.660 She definitely is, is, uh, well contrasted with this other woman who is kind of playing the game is, you know, she's got like a bunch of facial, she's got these giant braces that, you know, like headgear, uh, like she's still stuck in middle school somewhere from seventies, you know, that kind of thing. 1.00

00:24:04.740 Yeah.

00:24:05.260 I mean, you know, it's a film, right?

00:24:06.820 So she's not only unattractive in the sense of not having that liveliness of this woman he's drawn to, but she also just doesn't look that great.

00:24:15.360 Right.

00:24:16.060 Right.

00:24:17.200 So, so, uh, another big theme that is a part of this is the plastic surgery, right?

00:24:24.180 One of the, the, the themes we see is, you know, when we're introduced to his mother, she's getting this comment.

00:24:30.220 In fact, if you've only seen maybe two pictures from the movie, you've probably seen this one where they're stretching the mother's face out like silly putty.

00:24:38.660 And the, you know, the doctor is trying to decide where to cut on him.

00:24:42.580 Um, and very interestingly, just like, uh, Gilliam predicts a lot of the bureaucratic problems.

00:24:49.020 He predicts a lot of the family problems because the mother that we never see the father, you know, we know that he died at some point.

00:24:57.420 They have a conversation about, uh, how he, he knew one of the upper ups and something, but you know, that he's, he's without a father.

00:25:04.380 The son is without a father and the mother is treating him as something of, uh, just a trophy or something.

00:25:12.220 To only pay attention to, uh, uh, you know, very fleetingly only when she can introduce him or, or try to, you know, uh, elevate him, make him play the game.

00:25:22.160 He, he is like a fashion accessory.

00:25:24.820 If you've ever watched absolutely fabulous, you know, exactly what I'm said, the dynamic I'm describing.

00:25:29.020 Yeah.

00:25:29.820 Right.

00:25:30.160 And she, uh, and she's constantly looking for the attention of younger men right in front of him.

00:25:35.760 And so one of the reasons she's going through these plastic surgeries is to look more presentable to, you know, so that it very much is that like, uh, you know, single mother who doesn't care very much about the child is always just, you know, chasing after the attention of younger and younger men. 0.66

00:25:52.860 And that's the theme throughout.

00:25:54.160 She, she keeps getting plastic surgeries. 0.91

00:25:56.180 You know, all of the social events are, are based around the reveal of her latest plastic surgery.

00:26:01.660 And each time she gets younger, she pays less and less attention to him at the end, basically telling him, just go away.

00:26:08.400 You know, I I'm busy talking to all these younger men.

00:26:10.780 You don't matter to me.

00:26:12.740 Right.

00:26:13.340 Right.

00:26:13.720 Yeah.

00:26:14.040 Yeah.

00:26:14.400 I mean, she's sort of the, you know, what we'll talk about sort of the boomer stereotype, right?

00:26:20.620 It's, it's all about me.

00:26:22.640 It's all about what I'm thinking about right now.

00:26:24.900 What my, I just want to be happy to use a phrase from a boomer.

00:26:29.140 Just let me be happy, you know?

00:26:31.020 And don't distract me with your stuff.

00:26:34.000 Right.

00:26:35.040 Absolutely.

00:26:35.800 So the, the next big, uh, big kind of twist is when he needs to find the information, uh, to, to track down this girl from his dreams.

00:26:46.220 And I want to get into that because the information retrieval is a very interesting euphemism that ends up getting used in the film.

00:26:52.980 I want to talk a little bit about that.

00:26:54.340 But before we do guys, let me remind you about your absolute moral duty to get out of the whole bureaucratic thing and hire based people in based companies through new founding.

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00:28:13.080 All right.

00:28:13.760 So before he gets transferred to information retrieval, he ends up deciding to take this promotion that he's been denying for a long time so he can.

00:28:21.760 No, no, no, no, that's how he gets, that's how he, he, he's doing the promotion so he can be an information retrieval.

00:28:27.240 Right, right.

00:28:27.920 So he can get access to the information.

00:28:30.040 Yeah.

00:28:30.500 So he can get to the information about this lady.

00:28:32.620 Yeah.

00:28:33.080 Right.

00:28:33.420 But, but, but before that happens, he runs into an interesting character.

00:28:37.720 So Robert De Niro is in this film out of nowhere.

00:28:40.640 Right.

00:28:41.180 And that's one of the beautiful things about this film.

00:28:43.000 Like you get Robert De Niro and Bob Hoskins and all these guys who you wouldn't expect to be sprinkled in here as kind of key players.

00:28:51.720 But even though they're kind of practically get like cameos, right?

00:28:55.640 I mean, they're not even on the, they're not major characters.

00:28:57.700 They're minor characters in the film.

00:28:59.560 Yes.

00:28:59.780 And so what you discover is that, that Robert De Niro is a, he's an HVAC technician.

00:29:07.740 He's an air conditioner repairman.

00:29:10.320 And so when he deals with the ducks that are, that are so often in there, like you said, you're not allowed to touch him.

00:29:17.200 You're not allowed to fix anything.

00:29:18.800 The system always works.

00:29:20.140 There's nothing ever wrong.

00:29:21.340 You know, the central services is this kind of, you know, this bureaucratic organization that takes care of all the maintenance.

00:29:30.040 And he, our main character calls in because his air conditioning gets stuck and, but, but they won't show up.

00:29:36.540 And so, you know, they, he keeps getting a recording that says it's not a recording telling him that, you know, the thing will be taken care of soon.

00:29:43.840 And instead, Robert De Niro's character shows up and he's, the great thing about Robert De Niro's character is that he's this dangerous rogue.

00:29:53.320 You know, he's, he's got to run in with a gun and he's got to scare the main character.

00:29:57.200 And you reason, find out the reason he has the gun is because fixing the ducks is illegal. 0.90

00:30:03.300 And he's like the, you know, he's a scab.

00:30:05.600 He's a non-union, non-government.

00:30:08.940 Yeah.

00:30:09.340 Yeah.

00:30:09.740 Yeah.

00:30:09.900 Fixing that.

00:30:10.760 And so, and so he like runs in and he like zip lines away from the building, like Batman and everything, but he's just some dude who fixes the air conditioning.

00:30:20.360 Fixes stuff.

00:30:21.020 Yeah.

00:30:21.220 Yeah.

00:30:21.700 Yeah.

00:30:22.000 I mean, and effectively he's like a pirate in this world.

00:30:25.500 Right.

00:30:26.160 He's off the grid.

00:30:27.740 He's, he's out of the system.

00:30:29.540 He, oh, in fact, he said he left the system because he was too frustrated with the bureaucracy.

00:30:34.300 He just wanted to fix things.

00:30:35.660 You know, yeah, this is the most libertarian moment of the, of the movie.

00:30:40.260 Right.

00:30:40.720 Where he's like, I just got tired of, I just wanted to come in and work for someone and do the job and get paid.

00:30:47.620 Right.

00:30:48.100 I didn't want the government.

00:30:49.280 I didn't want the bureaucracy. 0.58

00:30:50.360 And this is what makes him like a violent criminal.

00:30:53.340 Right.

00:30:53.800 Right. 1.00

00:30:54.020 And they are hunting and they want to kill him. 0.99

00:30:55.980 And sorry, just to be clear that the name that got mistaken was his name.

00:31:00.440 His name was typed wrong.

00:31:01.780 And this poor, innocent fellow got killed.

00:31:04.400 They were trying to take him out.

00:31:06.120 This, this dangerous air conditioner repairman.

00:31:09.980 Yes.

00:31:10.360 That's the, that's the beauty of the whole thing.

00:31:12.200 Right.

00:31:12.440 It's like, we discover that the, the, the guy, the reason the guy ended up getting murdered is not because, you know, he's this horrific terrorist or he, you know, he's this menace to society.

00:31:22.420 It's that they confused him with an illegitimate AC repairman.

00:31:27.240 Right.

00:31:28.000 That was, that was the, you know, the fatal crime.

00:31:30.840 And so our character ends up meeting him.

00:31:33.760 And that's important because, you know, he, he's a recurring character throughout the rest.

00:31:38.820 But like you said, just in bit parts, he just shows up for a minute or two throughout the film.

00:31:43.860 So I just want to make sure we mentioned that.

00:31:45.440 Um, and no, no surprise have to say Robert De Niro absolutely nails it.

00:31:50.020 They're some of the best scenes of the film.

00:31:51.580 I mean, they're great.

00:31:53.540 Yeah.

00:31:54.040 Again, absolutely.

00:31:54.660 Just in there for the moment, but the moment he, and you forget, like, it's really young De Niro, you know, it's, it's in the, you know, so, uh, so, so it's a pretty young De Niro for the, for that movie.

00:32:05.680 Um, but, but he goes, he, he takes this, uh, promotion to the, uh, information retrieval bureau.

00:32:13.820 And you're thinking, okay, well, so that means like he sits around and he does a lot of, uh, a lot of computer work, which yeah, they do.

00:32:20.680 But, uh, but he does this so he can find the girl, right?

00:32:23.760 That's why he finally takes a promotion he always hated.

00:32:25.820 So he can get the level of access necessary to search for this girl's name and everything.

00:32:30.920 But what you slowly start to realize through clues, uh, you know, like the, the, there's a stenographer listening to all of the tape from what's going on and she's typing it out.

00:32:41.700 And you slowly realize it's notes from a torture.

00:32:44.800 Yeah.

00:32:45.380 And then you run into his friend.

00:32:49.000 The retrieval of information we're thinking like, like computer land, right?

00:32:53.920 It's, it's getting information out of the database.

00:32:56.460 No, no, no.

00:32:56.900 It's retrieving information from people by any means necessary.

00:33:01.600 Yes, exactly.

00:33:02.840 And then he runs into his friend, which was introduced early in the film, the one, a film, a friend who was chiding him for being so low ranking.

00:33:10.640 And, you know, why aren't, you know, why aren't you living up to your potential, the kind that your father and your, your mother expected of you.

00:33:17.860 And you discover that, uh, you know, you think he's a doctor and you slowly realize, oh, he's a doctor in the sense that, you know, he's torturing people, you know, and he's got this, this weird mask on, uh, this kind of, that, that's got the weird baby face.

00:33:31.780 Again, if you've never seen, if you've seen a couple images from the film, that's probably one that you've seen, uh, the character in the torture chair with that.

00:33:38.720 Uh, and, and so you, you slowly realize that, uh, that that's, that's what's actually happening in this building.

00:33:46.400 And it's even more horrific because the guy wasn't supposed to die.

00:33:50.400 In fact, the way that the, uh, the friend who's the, the torture absolves himself of responsibility is that, uh, because there was a mistake made in the lower, uh, bureaucracy, uh, the, the guy he tortured had a heart condition he wasn't supposed to have.

00:34:07.260 And so he's not responsible for the murder.

00:34:09.880 He thought he was torturing Robert De Niro.

00:34:11.840 Exactly.

00:34:12.980 Yeah.

00:34:13.560 Yeah.

00:34:13.720 Yeah.

00:34:14.120 Yeah.

00:34:14.600 He got the, the poor hapless, uh, you know, uh, kind of grandfather from the, uh, from the earlier scenes.

00:34:20.780 And so that's the only reason that the guy died.

00:34:23.220 And so he kind of puts off the responsibility.

00:34:26.340 And again, just the, how, how easily human life is discarded here.

00:34:32.140 Nobody cares.

00:34:33.340 No one would know.

00:34:34.340 So this woman is trying to track down things and she, they don't even know that he's dead, you know, and, and, uh, in the midst of this, for a lot of this, uh, they don't realize the husband is dead for, for much of this.

00:34:46.140 And no one would have told her probably if it wasn't for the discovery of this check and everything.

00:34:50.920 And so, you know, there's just this constant showing of, of how no one can be held accountable. 0.70

00:34:57.020 It's all people just dying to a ridiculous system.

00:35:00.060 There's no responsibility anywhere inside of the bureaucracy. 0.76

00:35:04.340 Yeah, this is, this Kafka, this Kafkaesque system doesn't have accountability.

00:35:11.840 Everywhere you turn, you see people who find a way to do things, but not be responsible for what they're doing, not be held accountable for what they're doing.

00:35:21.080 We're just a cog in the system.

00:35:23.400 You can't, don't look at me, you know, it's nothing personal.

00:35:26.520 It's just business, right?

00:35:27.680 That's, that's all the way through the movie.

00:35:29.400 That's the, the attitude.

00:35:31.320 Absolutely.

00:35:31.880 And again, you can't help, but feel how relevant that is today.

00:35:36.020 You know, how, how many police officers, how many FBI, you know, how, how many, even judges, people who are, you know, they're given the task of being a linchpin in the system of adjudicating issues would just turn around and say, well, I got the wrong data from the experts.

00:35:54.020 I got the, yeah, you can't really blame me.

00:35:56.740 I'm not really someone who can bear responsibility.

00:35:59.840 It just mirrors how much of our system is, is what Carlyle would have called a government by steam instead of one where actual people are held accountable and make real decisions based on what they, what they understand.

00:36:13.760 Right, right.

00:36:14.360 Yeah.

00:36:14.580 So there's not decisions.

00:36:15.740 There's just process.

00:36:17.060 Exactly.

00:36:17.840 It's all process all the way down.

00:36:20.200 And that's, again, that, that's what's so beautifully communicated in every aspect of the movie.

00:36:26.840 Everything is, is hyper reality.

00:36:29.080 There's no, there's no real experiences involved.

00:36:32.580 Everything is an echo of an echo of an echo.

00:36:35.100 You start to see, you know, there, there's technically Christmas happening and everyone exchanges gifts, but no one cares when they get them.

00:36:43.600 Like no one, no one ever opens them.

00:36:46.280 No one cares about what's inside them.

00:36:48.120 All, all, and everyone always gives the same gift.

00:36:51.460 They've just got like 12 of them sitting around the exact same wrapping paper.

00:36:56.080 Um, you know, the, the, the billboards say, you know, like consumers for Christ are the, you know, is the only, uh, kind of religious symbol we see involved with Christmas, you know?

00:37:06.880 Oh, I miss that.

00:37:07.840 I'm not kidding.

00:37:08.760 Consumers for Christ.

00:37:10.100 Yeah.

00:37:10.380 Oof.

00:37:11.220 Oof.

00:37:12.060 Exactly.

00:37:12.900 Exactly.

00:37:13.420 But, but, but it's, but it's, it reminds, you know, when we look at, uh, you know, our own, our own government that just, you know, celebrated, uh, you know, trans awareness day on Easter.

00:37:25.940 Trans day of visibility.

00:37:27.620 Exactly.

00:37:28.620 Yeah.

00:37:28.760 And the way that every corporation and every government has reduced every of our, every one of our Christian holidays into the secular symbols.

00:37:37.060 So you're not allowed to have anything about Christ on Easter or Christmas, but you can have Santa Claus, you can have reindeer, you can have Easter bunnies.

00:37:45.480 You know, if this is the worst thing, if anyone plays a video games that have like that live service type model, uh, every one of these holidays is just like egg day or bunny day or, you know, sleigh day.

00:37:58.680 There's always this, this weird sanitized version of this.

00:38:02.860 And again, it's just amazing how easily that's reflected out of this movie into our present day where every one of these bureaucracies sanitizes these religious, you know, symbols.

00:38:13.120 One, one of the things that strikes me around, uh, you know, we have family movie night every Friday night.

00:38:18.160 And so we've watched a lot of the films that are suitable for children, right.

00:38:23.020 Including holiday films.

00:38:24.480 And one of the things that always strikes me is they will have the Santa and the Easter bunny and so forth, but it's all about, it all ends up being about how you have to believe in Santa.

00:38:35.700 The whole movie ends up the linchpin is you've got to really believe in this fake thing.

00:38:41.020 Right.

00:38:41.460 Or, or there won't be joy in the world or something.

00:38:44.260 So it's like, wait, so are they talking about faith?

00:38:48.080 But the faith is in a thing that we all know is imaginary.

00:38:51.180 What's happening here, you know?

00:38:52.660 But, but it, I see it in movie after movie after movie, the same thing.

00:38:56.340 This huge emphasis on, you know, you've got, you've got to clap for the fairy, right?

00:39:00.500 And then Peter Pan or whatever, she'll die.

00:39:02.620 It's, but it's like that over and over through these holiday films.

00:39:05.980 Yeah, that is strange how that, it's like they feel that the archetype has to be presented inside the movie, but they know they can't present the real thing because that will affect people.

00:39:17.500 And so we just, yeah, you're right.

00:39:19.040 We just get this weird iteration on the theme without any of the truth behind it.

00:39:23.820 Yeah, a strong belief, a very strong belief in nothing in the middle, but nothing in, that you're actually believing in, right?

00:39:32.300 Yeah.

00:39:32.500 So, so eventually he tracks this woman down, he gets the information he needs and discovers she's a, she's a trucker. 0.78

00:39:40.020 So she's someone who is driving around and she goes to these industrial sites, right?

00:39:45.580 And he, he is assuming that she is a terrorist, right?

00:39:50.260 Like this is, this is one of the things that he ends up thinking that she's a terrorist, she's delivering a package.

00:39:55.980 And so she must be one of the, the kind of terrorists that people are talking about all the time.

00:40:02.520 And, uh, and so he accuses her of this and, uh, you know, he said, you know, she, she says, oh, you work in an information retrieval.

00:40:10.140 You're one of those guys.

00:40:10.980 And he's like, well, I suppose you're one of the people that wants, you know, terrorists.

00:40:14.060 And he's like, she's like, have you ever met any terrorists?

00:40:16.280 Do you know?

00:40:16.880 And again, it feels like, uh, we're, we're trapped again.

00:40:20.120 And, you know, what, 30 years before the nine 11, uh, you know, 20 or 30 years before the nine 11 events, uh, you, you have this reflection of, okay, uh, the, the, the specter of terrorism means we have to submit to this constant bureaucracy, this constant security apparatus, everything has to be monitored, surveilled, but no one has actually ever run into this situation.

00:40:42.120 And, you know, like people die, like we see the terrorist events, you know, but, but no one is really sure who's responsible or how anyone would, would, would actually be held accountable again for this.

00:40:53.360 Why it's happening.

00:40:54.320 Why it's happening.

00:40:55.360 Yeah.

00:40:55.640 And that, that's what I was trying to get at earlier on that.

00:40:57.780 The, the global war on terror era that I remember very well, it felt like Brazil was the movie for that era.

00:41:04.600 You know, it's, it, you've got to submit to all this apparatus they're building and take your shoes off at the airport, which we're still doing.

00:41:12.120 We're still doing, et cetera, because, you know, there's terrorists out there, man.

00:41:18.300 Well, and now they're doing it in the New York subway, right?

00:41:20.480 Like they refuse to arrest people.

00:41:22.620 They refuse to arrest criminals.

00:41:24.800 They were the, in fact, the only people they arrest are the people trying to stop crime in the New York subway.

00:41:30.380 And now they've brought in the national guard and are doing, you know, uh, airport style, you know, security for the subway.

00:41:38.760 Not because we don't know how to stop crime, but because they refuse to do it and they'd rather have the bureaucratic control.

00:41:47.400 And again, that dispersal of responsibility, right.

00:41:50.040 Is the key.

00:41:50.880 We're not racist.

00:41:51.640 We're not, you know, we're not judging people.

00:41:53.660 We don't want anyone.

00:41:54.560 We don't need cops to be.

00:41:55.640 So we're just going to screen everybody all the time.

00:41:58.720 So we're now going to, we're now going to pat down grandma as a virtue signal or something.

00:42:05.560 Yeah, exactly.

00:42:07.020 And, and I love that in one of the interviews, uh, in kind of the very British moment, you know, someone is there, they're playing the background interview with a TV and one of the British ministers.

00:42:16.040 And they're asking him, Hey, you know, why do you think there's terrorism?

00:42:19.120 What do you, what do you think is going on?

00:42:20.560 What's motivating these people to constantly commit these acts of terror?

00:42:24.460 And the response from the minister is, Oh, I think it's a lack of sense of fair play.

00:42:29.920 You know, they, they just, yeah, they, they just, a lot of people don't want to see someone else get ahead.

00:42:35.420 And if, you know, if they would just play by the rules that they would, they would be okay too, but they just can't stand it.

00:42:41.800 You know, it very much is that, that, that, that very British sense of, uh, of humor there, but, uh, but, but a beautiful thing.

00:42:50.560 It makes me think of like, they hate us for our freedom, you know, all that, that they were peddling, you know?

00:42:56.000 Yes, exactly.

00:42:56.800 Yeah.

00:42:57.000 That's exactly the right, uh, the right comparison.

00:43:00.220 The, yeah.

00:43:00.720 Well, what they hate us for is our freedom.

00:43:02.160 There's nothing else wrong with this, this completely conformist, oppressive, depressing, you know, completely totalitarian society.

00:43:09.640 It's our freedom.

00:43:10.480 You know, that, that's, that's our prosperity.

00:43:13.440 Yeah.

00:43:14.020 Yeah.

00:43:15.000 Well, and again, it's that, that theme of the information makes us free, right?

00:43:19.520 It's the 1980, uh, is it 1984 that has, you know, the, the walls and bars make you free.

00:43:24.820 I'm trying to remember if that's an actual quote, uh, from 1984.

00:43:28.240 You know, you have, uh, what, ignorance is strength and not, you know, all that sort of, those mottos.

00:43:33.700 Yeah.

00:43:34.180 But, but it really is that, that iteration of, you know, we, we, of course we're free.

00:43:38.680 Of course we're advanced.

00:43:39.560 Of course we're civilized.

00:43:40.720 We have the technology.

00:43:42.080 We have the information.

00:43:43.020 We have the bureaucracy.

00:43:44.460 And that's what makes us, you know, the, the advanced civilization with the freedoms we have.

00:43:49.080 Yeah.

00:43:49.240 I meant to say it earlier, but let me drop it in now, which is that, you know, as you talked about the world that he gives us where, um, well, it's a, because it's, he's funny.

00:44:00.720 Right.

00:44:00.960 And it's, it's a combination of this devotion to the idea of expertise and of, of bureaucratic process that is really well designed and all that combined with a clearly incompetent system.

00:44:13.300 Right.

00:44:13.780 I mean, it's not, it's nuts how incompetent it is, um, but they really believe in it.

00:44:18.400 Right.

00:44:19.180 Uh, it, it, um, it makes me think of the progressives, not the progressives now, but the progressives from a hundred plus years ago or, or in the U S or the Fabian society in UK, where it's all about rule by experts.

00:44:33.640 Right.

00:44:34.280 Right.

00:44:34.840 And so, you know, we've got to get rid of the chaos of charity and have a welfare state instead that has experts, social workers, bureaucratic processes.

00:44:47.180 Right.

00:44:47.620 That's going to be the solution.

00:44:49.560 Um, we've got to drop the term, right.

00:44:51.560 Our, a managerialist system, right.

00:44:54.220 That is, that is going to solve our problems because we are going to rationalize it.

00:44:59.100 We're going to line it all up, make it systematic, and then we're going to have wonderful outcomes.

00:45:04.780 Right.

00:45:05.300 And that, this movie is, could, it could be read so many ways, but one of them as a, as an absolute slam against rule by experts and the progressives.

00:45:13.400 Yes.

00:45:13.960 And again, at every turn, like the oppression of the system, this, this very, uh, kind of, uh, absurdist, but dark aesthetic is contrasted with that high fantasy, uh, dream sequence.

00:45:27.280 Right.

00:45:27.720 Right.

00:45:27.980 They're always peppered in to remind us that he's soaring above.

00:45:30.340 Because one of the interesting things about the movie is it, it has in a way, uh, some of the beautiful aesthetics that we would think of in some of these types of movies.

00:45:39.580 It has a neo-noir, you know, art deco type look to it.

00:45:44.200 Right.

00:45:44.680 Everyone's got the trench coats with the hat and the, that you get the, the art deco statues.

00:45:50.140 And so in some ways it would look like a dark city or a, or a rocketeer in certain ways.

00:45:56.380 But on top of that is this ugly layer of, I don't know, like fifties diners kitsch, right? 0.98

00:46:03.700 Like, uh, yeah, it's, you know, there's these weird windows and the, and again, the, the, the ducks everywhere, everything.

00:46:10.200 It looks like someone took a beautiful art deco city and then just like vomited a bunch of industrial, ugly, cheap stuff on top of it.

00:46:19.380 Right.

00:46:20.180 Yeah.

00:46:20.460 Speaking of the neo-noir part, uh, one of the scenes visually that for me really stands out is people are leaving, I think, information retrieval, if I remember correctly.

00:46:29.180 But there's a bunch of bureaucrats, they're all dressed with, uh, fedoras and trench coats.

00:46:34.660 They look very much the same, right?

00:46:37.300 They're all dressed very similarly and they're all leaving work, uh, dressed the same.

00:46:42.060 And I, if I remember correctly, the camera pans up and is above them and just all these very similar looking figures pouring out of the building.

00:46:48.420 These bureaucrats, well, there were some bureaucrats, right?

00:46:51.440 Pouring out of the building.

00:46:52.320 It's, it's, it's one of those scenes that really stuck visually in my head.

00:46:56.040 Yeah.

00:46:56.480 You have almost like ants just pouring out of the hill.

00:46:59.340 Yeah.

00:46:59.600 You know?

00:47:00.000 Yeah.

00:47:00.280 Yeah.

00:47:00.580 Very good.

00:47:01.220 Yes.

00:47:02.120 Yeah.

00:47:02.460 So he ends up, uh, thinking that she's a terrorist and they go on this kind of long chase with the authorities, uh, you know, a lot of absurd, uh, things happen, but eventually he ends up being captured.

00:47:15.600 Right.

00:47:15.980 And he ends up in the very torture chair, uh, you know, that, that his friend operates.

00:47:21.340 In fact, he finds out his friend is behind the mask and he's trying to, you know, uh, he's trying to appeal to him as humanity, but he's trying to, you know, you're, you're embarrassing me.

00:47:30.920 He's covering the microphone, making sure to pull his mask down, uh, you know, so that his, you know, his kind of emotion, uh, doesn't show.

00:47:38.060 So even though he's known this guy for a long time, he's connected to his family at the end of the day, it's just another business transaction.

00:47:43.440 You know, it's, it's, it's another, another thing, but, but at the last second, um, you know, the, the, the rogue HVAC guys rappel down, uh, and they, you know, they, they shoot the, uh, the guy in the head and, uh, they, they, they rescue him.

00:47:59.980 The main character, they start taking him out of the building.

00:48:02.360 I love that there's this huge, uh, again, it's not as stylized as the matrix, but it reminded me of that big lobby shooting scene, you know, in the matrix, huge firefight, but the whole time, uh, the, the janitors keep cleaning and the guy at the desk keeps doing boring paperwork.

00:48:19.720 Like, and it's really great because the janitors again, have like, they don't just have vacuums.

00:48:24.900 Like it's all got duct work being dragged behind it.

00:48:27.440 So like all of the gun shootout or like diving over like vacuum cleaner duct that's being dragged across the lobby and everything.

00:48:36.060 So it's this absurd, like high energy, you know, firefight there's gruesome, like there's bloody, you know, uh, there's gore in this for sure.

00:48:43.840 It's rated R, uh, but it's all happening in this very absurd, you know, manner while everyone else is just hearing on the most mundane tasks.

00:48:51.360 It's really fantastic.

00:48:54.260 Right.

00:48:54.660 And so he's, he's, uh, rescued, um, and, uh, ultimately he is back in the truck driven by his dream girl.

00:49:03.760 Right.

00:49:04.620 Yeah.

00:49:05.060 And they go, everything's wonderful.

00:49:07.040 And this is the part that's a little confusing.

00:49:10.260 Um, yeah, they leave the city together, right?

00:49:12.860 They're getting out of the system.

00:49:14.520 Um, and this is the part that is a little confusing about the history of the film.

00:49:17.840 Um, I thought that it was released in America where it stopped right there with that wonderful happy ending.

00:49:24.500 Um, I'm a little unclear on that, but at least that was one of the cuts they had, but in the actual director's cut are on.

00:49:32.060 Yeah.

00:49:32.900 Yeah.

00:49:33.420 That that's the wild thing.

00:49:34.480 You're right.

00:49:34.780 So they go through and it's interesting because even once he's rescued and he meets her, you know, they, they kind of meet back.

00:49:41.860 Like they're going back into these dream sequences again, you know, so he finally gets her, he gets to bed her and everything, you know, and, and they go through these dream sequences and you're not sure like, okay, he's just seeing her the way he wants to see her.

00:49:54.200 And then it cuts back to the way she actually looks and these things.

00:49:56.480 And he like goes through this strange dream sequence of his mother and he's like at a funeral.

00:50:02.580 And, uh, you know, this is where she's super young and she doesn't even want to talk to him anymore because she's surrounded by all.

00:50:08.500 And so things are getting more and more dreamlike.

00:50:10.640 They're getting further or further away from the real world.

00:50:13.900 And he keeps tumbling through these different kind of vignettes of, of, of more surreal dream until eventually you get to the, the big kind of twist ending where you realize it's all the dream.

00:50:25.780 And he's still stuck in the torture chair.

00:50:28.260 He never escapes.

00:50:29.920 There was no, there was no rescue there.

00:50:33.000 These, you know, Robert De Niro never shows back up and, and liberates him.

00:50:36.740 And like you said, I think in the original, I only ever saw the, the movie many years after its theatrical release.

00:50:42.280 So I'm only familiar, the sad ending.

00:50:45.500 Right.

00:50:45.800 That was the only one I even knew existed.

00:50:47.920 And then you mentioned this.

00:50:49.240 And when we started diving into it, I was like, Oh, I didn't even know this was a thing.

00:50:52.220 And it looks like there was a battle between Gillum to, to keep in the edgier kind of depressing cut.

00:50:57.660 But of course it didn't do well with audiences that were, you know, I want to watch Monty Python, you know?

00:51:02.160 Uh, and so, and, and so they kind of kept, like you said, they, they kind of, it looks like they kept, we haven't seen the other ending, so we can't comment on kind of the, the more toned down ending, but it does look like there, you know, there's a Blade Runner-esque battle over the editing rights.

00:51:17.900 Right, right, right, right.

00:51:19.340 But the real, the real ending that the, the Gilliam director's ending or whatever is that, um, they, uh, the torturers realize that he is just completely insane at this point.

00:51:30.100 He's just, he's completely in his head, completely in his dreams.

00:51:33.260 And the film ends with them just walking away with him in the chair, humming, of course, Brazil, the song Brazil, which is the theme throughout the movie.

00:51:42.100 Yeah, that's a great thing.

00:51:43.220 I've always loved that song ever since, ever since that movie, I've loved the song.

00:51:45.840 But when you, when you explain the movie, movie to people and you start with, it's called Brazil and it has nothing to do with Brazil at all.

00:51:53.500 Yeah, right.

00:51:54.040 It doesn't take place in Brazil.

00:51:55.380 We probably should have mentioned that.

00:51:57.240 It is not set in Brazil.

00:51:58.800 It's just the song represents, um, a happier place or something, right?

00:52:03.480 Yeah.

00:52:04.040 Yeah, so, go ahead.

00:52:06.220 Did you have, I wanted to talk about the dreams at some point.

00:52:09.520 Yeah, well, we'll definitely, yeah, I just wanted to, for the re, the ending real quick, what do you think about that ending?

00:52:14.040 Because so many of these movies do end on a happier note when they're in this theme.

00:52:19.620 There is some form of liberation.

00:52:21.240 There's some crack in the system that allows you to know that you're going to make it through.

00:52:25.440 Of course, 1984 doesn't do that.

00:52:27.600 You know, Winston eventually, you know, becomes, uh, uh, realizes his love for big brother.

00:52:33.000 Uh, but, but what do you think?

00:52:34.540 Brave new world that the, the, the, the man who's outside of the system, who's come into the system just hangs himself.

00:52:40.340 Right.

00:52:40.960 Right.

00:52:41.400 So, yeah, yeah.

00:52:42.540 He's really keeping with the darker dystopian tradition here.

00:52:47.640 Uh, what do you think that says about, you know, his, his, his understanding of the bureaucratic system and what he thinks will be the possibility of, of people breaking through?

00:52:56.700 Well, this is the time to show your book, the total state.

00:53:00.220 Yeah.

00:53:00.460 Right.

00:53:01.020 I was actually thinking about it, thinking back through this film because it is, um, the, the moments of escape from this total bureaucratic state in the film are, um, all illusions.

00:53:19.880 Right.

00:53:21.000 So in the film, as the viewer, you get to go with him on his dream, in his dreams, and you get to feel a relief from the, the, the, the ugliness and the bureaucracy and the system, the solace of the system.

00:53:34.460 But it's clear in the film that that is all just made up in his mind.

00:53:39.300 That's not the lived reality of the people in this world.

00:53:41.900 Right.

00:53:43.280 Um, that is him wanting to be out of it, but not succeeding.

00:53:47.460 And, and of course, at the end, he really doesn't succeed, even though he's, you know, gone crazy and sort of thinks he has.

00:53:54.260 Right.

00:53:54.520 He's never able to get out of the system.

00:53:56.600 So, so, yeah, I mean, I, I think that the, the, the whole point that Gilliam's doing is that he is going to, he's really going to do a dystopian.

00:54:05.180 He's going to go for it.

00:54:06.700 Right.

00:54:07.360 He's not going to give you any signs of like, oh yeah, but there's this bright side to it.

00:54:12.440 No, no, no.

00:54:13.160 That any bright side that you think is there is a trick and illusion.

00:54:18.800 You're going to wake up someday or whatever.

00:54:21.100 And you're going to realize that, no, no, no, there is nothing else but this.

00:54:25.440 It's pretty soul crushing, actually.

00:54:27.300 I mean, I, I didn't, I hadn't thought about that in its entirety, but you're right that there's every moment of hope, like every moment of resistance really is one in which there is an illusion.

00:54:39.020 Maybe the only thing that's even a deviation is the Robert De Niro character.

00:54:43.760 Like we were pretty sure he's real and even in that moment, his act of rebellion, like his very edgy, uh, way to escape the system is to go out and repair stuff for free to people when the bureaucracy isn't getting around to it.

00:54:59.660 That's as wild as he's not, he's not exactly, he's not exactly an anarchist tearing it down or something.

00:55:05.780 Right.

00:55:06.540 Yeah.

00:55:07.060 Yeah.

00:55:07.240 Even, even, even the, the, the greatest act of defiance in the movie is simply a maintenance of the system.

00:55:12.800 It's simply a more efficient version of maintaining what the world that they live in.

00:55:18.580 There's, there is no moment where there's actual liberation.

00:55:22.240 Robert De Niro's, uh, air conditioner repairman is just containment.

00:55:26.660 Our own face.

00:55:27.700 It's true.

00:55:28.640 It's true.

00:55:30.280 Very true.

00:55:31.580 So you wanted to say more about the, um, the, the, yeah.

00:55:34.960 So thinking about this, thinking about this movie, um, and maybe some of the other themes in Gilliam's film, I wanted to particularly mention, uh, the adventures of Baron Munchausen.

00:55:43.540 It's a big favorite of mine.

00:55:45.000 And I think that if you, um, like Brazil and you haven't caught Baron Munchausen, I'd really recommend it.

00:55:52.160 Uh, and I think you'll see a lot of, a lot of similar themes.

00:55:55.260 And as I was mentioning, Aaron, I think it has the best, like little,

00:55:58.640 it's like 30 seconds, 30, 60 seconds, uh, reactionary moment in, in a Gilliam film that absolutely slams like the French revolution and the leftist violence.

00:56:09.360 It's just marvelous.

00:56:10.260 It's worth seeing for that.

00:56:11.620 And there's so much more in there.

00:56:12.760 Um, but, but, um, it, it, it got me thinking the, the, the strong theme of dreams.

00:56:18.840 It got me thinking about escape.

00:56:20.200 And that got me thinking about Tolkien writing about fantasy, um, in his wonderful essay on fairy stories.

00:56:27.280 And in which he addresses the critics who say the problem with fantasy is that it's just escapism.

00:56:34.500 You're just trying to get away from the real world.

00:56:37.740 Right.

00:56:38.180 And so Tolkien responds to this very thoughtfully.

00:56:41.140 And he says, he says, you know, usually in real life, when we talk about escape, it's a positive thing.

00:56:47.100 You know, you're trapped and you escape from the trap.

00:56:49.940 You're in jail.

00:56:50.760 You escape from the jail.

00:56:52.200 Right.

00:56:52.800 You're, you're going to, you're escaping into freedom.

00:56:55.480 Right.

00:56:56.380 Um, and he says, so why couldn't fantasy be, as I think we see it as in Brazil, why can't it be an escape from your awful system that you guys are a part of? 0.91

00:57:07.220 You know, this, this modern dystopian bureaucratic soulless machine that we're more and more getting trapped in.

00:57:15.840 Um, is that, is that okay?

00:57:18.560 We escape from it even for a moment, even while we read a little story.

00:57:22.480 Can we be out of your system, please?

00:57:25.480 Anyway, so I, that's something that this movie made me think of, which I had never made that connection before thinking about Tolkien on escape.

00:57:33.040 Yeah.

00:57:33.520 It's interesting that there's never any moments of, of fantasy, uh, on the, we, we see a lot of media in the movie, uh, but it's never anything of a, always news.

00:57:44.080 It's always a discussion.

00:57:45.300 And, um, part of that is obviously just moving the story along.

00:57:48.380 It's, it's just, it's, you know, just story pipe.

00:57:50.540 But there's also the fact that in this omnipresent bureaucratic state where, you know, you would often see, uh, you know, in other dystopias, some kind of propaganda film or some, you know, some, some kind of entertainment that at least had the propaganda message inside of it.

00:58:08.120 But there's never any of that.

00:58:09.620 There's never any escape.

00:58:10.740 There's never even moment of levity.

00:58:12.880 Uh, again, like you said, the only escape is ever through, uh, through the dreams.

00:58:17.040 Uh, the, the, the people inside are never allowed to, to view something.

00:58:20.680 I don't think they do have, I guess they do have the movies.

00:58:23.880 Uh, they actually, in fact, we do see real world movies.

00:58:26.400 I want to say it's a wonderful life is on there at some point.

00:58:29.900 Oh, okay.

00:58:31.060 Yeah.

00:58:31.200 But there, but so, so we do see it's connected in some way to our own world.

00:58:37.960 Uh, but there's, but there's no, yeah, there's nothing new.

00:58:40.980 There's, there's nothing new that is media produced.

00:58:44.080 That's escapist by the system.

00:58:46.260 The only thing they seem to have is leftover from a time where they weren't trapped in, I guess, this level of bureaucracy.

00:58:53.420 So, so here's a beautiful line from, from this section I'm thinking of, of Tolkien.

00:58:57.240 He says, uh, why should a man be scorned if finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home?

00:59:04.520 Or if, when he cannot do, do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison walls.

00:59:11.780 I love it.

00:59:14.480 Absolutely.

00:59:15.260 Well, uh, we're going to go ahead and pivot over to the questions of the people.

00:59:19.940 But before we do, Stephen, you have an excellent podcast.

00:59:23.240 You do a great, you do a great amount of work on the violence of the left, which I think is really important.

00:59:27.960 It's something that doesn't get documented enough.

00:59:30.240 Can you tell people a little bit about that and where to find it?

00:59:32.480 Yeah, I'll mention that.

00:59:33.380 So I have a channel on YouTube called Radical Liberation.

00:59:36.540 We do some economic analysis every other week.

00:59:39.320 And then on the other weeks, I, I, um, kind of do a political history and things like that.

00:59:44.740 One series we concluded recently is called the Left Wing Terror Series.

00:59:49.060 And this tries to fill in the blanks for the, uh, uh, as we joke about on the internet, why some things happen for no reason at all.

00:59:58.040 Right.

00:59:59.120 So in the Left Wing Terror Series, I try to fill in the for no reason at all, um, and, and show how there is a consistent history for hundreds of years, uh, particularly with the French Revolution afterwards.

01:00:12.740 But we actually start the series prior to that, um, there's a history of what I think is fair to call left-wing terror, where there's assassinations, there's terror bombings, like we see in Brazil.

01:00:25.240 Right.

01:00:25.940 Um, and, uh, this is all in the name of seizing power so that they can impose their utopia.

01:00:32.460 Right.

01:00:32.720 Um, and then it doesn't work out so well, and it's time for another round of left-wing violence to, to try to make the utopia happen this time.

01:00:39.920 Um, many of these episodes I talk about are not well remembered.

01:00:44.300 Um, for example, one of the episodes is, uh, about Red Bavaria when part of Germany, uh, was taken over by communists after World War I.

01:00:53.840 Um, another section is about Italy, where a number of Italian cities were taken over by communists.

01:01:00.200 Um, and this is all flushed down the toilet because it doesn't make the left look so good, and our history, as I think you've figured out, Aron, is, seems to be pretty much curated by the left.

01:01:12.440 Written by the victors, unfortunately.

01:01:14.620 Yes.

01:01:15.200 Yeah, written by the victors.

01:01:16.460 Yes.

01:01:16.800 Well, well, well put.

01:01:18.300 Yeah, everybody should definitely check those out.

01:01:20.200 Like I said, they're historical deep dives of a lot of things that people are not familiar with.

01:01:24.180 And like you said, when you start filling in, it's a, it's amazing how much, uh, you know, go further down these rabbit holes.

01:01:30.420 The more history, you know, the more, uh, you know, events make sense.

01:01:34.640 And you're like, oh, wow.

01:01:35.860 Yeah.

01:01:36.680 No, that's why they just suddenly happen.

01:01:38.380 Yeah.

01:01:39.060 Right.

01:01:39.500 Yeah.

01:01:40.220 And actually cause it wasn't just that everyone who disagreed was, was evil all the time.

01:01:47.180 All right.

01:01:47.440 So, uh, let's go ahead and go to our questions here.

01:01:51.060 Creeper weirdo says, but have you watched Brazil 200 times?

01:01:53.800 Then you'll fully understand it.

01:01:56.000 You know, again, the, the story of Brazil is not particularly complicated that there's not, you know, other, there's a couple of twists and turns, but you can follow it pretty easily.

01:02:04.560 Uh, the, the interesting thing, the thing is how much of the visual you can catch.

01:02:08.900 Uh, we, we can, we talked a lot about the visual representation here, a lot going on on the screen.

01:02:14.460 And you brought out details now I'm wanting to watch it again.

01:02:16.840 Cause I'm like, well, I don't remember catching the janitors anyway.

01:02:20.320 Yeah.

01:02:20.640 So there's a lot of things that like the, the, the main thing happening on the screen has got your attention and off in the corner, there's something really funny going on.

01:02:28.220 If you just notice.

01:02:29.620 Right.

01:02:29.800 Exactly.

01:02:30.260 Yeah.

01:02:30.540 That's the feeling I have the whole time is you, you really, you could do a where's Waldo to find all the absurd little bits that are occurring in each scene.

01:02:38.320 So it's one of those things that definitely benefits from a careful watching, not so much for the story, but for the visuals.

01:02:43.800 We, we can talk about it ad nauseum, but it's something you really should see for yourself.

01:02:48.000 We haven't, even if we just spoiled the ending for you, it's worth watching just because you capture all of those visuals.

01:02:55.720 Uh, Capitalismo says Gilliam is great, but Baron Munchausen is the best of the imagination trilogy.

01:03:02.200 Yeah.

01:03:02.400 He must have said that before.

01:03:03.520 I've heard the term imagination trilogy.

01:03:05.500 That's might be time bandits, Brazil and the adventures, adventures of Baron Munchausen, because the later films are the Fisher King with Robin Williams, um, 12 monkeys, fear and loathing in Las Vegas.

01:03:17.920 Um, and then some, some later more recent films, but those are sort of the classic, the eighties and the nineties films.

01:03:23.940 I think are really, if you watch those, you'll understand why Gilliam's one of my top two directors of all time.

01:03:30.080 Yeah.

01:03:30.480 Obviously I've seen the Monty Python stuff, fear and loathing, 12 monkeys, uh, uh, Brazil. 1.00

01:03:36.260 And then I saw the, the, one of the newer ones he had, like the imaginarium of somebody.

01:03:42.740 Imaginarium of Dr.

01:03:43.660 Parnassus.

01:03:44.140 Yeah.

01:03:44.340 I have not seen that one yet.

01:03:45.440 I think the, I'm trying to remember, it's like the main actor died in the, the beginning of the film.

01:03:50.340 And so they ended up placing him throughout the film with different people because, you know, they, you know, so they, they, they like turned it into a visual, uh, kind of, uh, language, which is an interesting way to solve that problem.

01:04:02.880 But, um, but that's all I really remember about that movie.

01:04:06.840 But yeah, for what I've seen, yeah, I love 12 monkeys.

01:04:10.700 Oh yeah.

01:04:11.080 No, that's a classic performance by, uh, Brad Pitt, I think.

01:04:14.600 It's, it's Willis and Pitt, I think.

01:04:17.360 Right.

01:04:18.060 Yeah.

01:04:18.720 Yeah.

01:04:19.140 It's Bruce Willis for sure.

01:04:20.760 And I, yeah, I think Bruce Willis is the time traveler and then Brad Pitt is the bad guy, I think.

01:04:25.500 I remember correctly.

01:04:26.800 But yeah, that's one of those that kept popping on, uh, like TNT all the time when I was, uh, you know, like one of those, those, uh, uh, channels that played movies all the time, uh, in the middle of the day.

01:04:36.580 Sorry, I remember that one.

01:04:37.940 It says, honest question.

01:04:39.080 Do you guys think terrorists, the terrorists are real?

01:04:41.580 Well, I know Gillum hinted that they are, but I'm wondering what you guys think.

01:04:46.340 I don't think, I think you said it right, Aron.

01:04:48.500 He doesn't really ever give us, that is not the story we're being told.

01:04:53.480 We're not being told the story of the terrorists.

01:04:55.620 Yeah.

01:04:55.760 The, the, the main character thinks that his dream woman is a terrorist, but that's not correct.

01:05:00.720 Right.

01:05:01.340 Um, so the terrorists are a backdrop and I don't, frankly, I don't think he ever tells us or even suggests whether the terrorists are real or, uh, what's it called a false flag or a mix.

01:05:14.240 You, you, you, you can kind of, you kind of bring your own ideas to that, but I don't think he really gives us much.

01:05:19.720 Did you catch something?

01:05:20.840 No, I had the same feeling.

01:05:22.260 It really is that, uh, you know, the, especially as the dreams get more thoroughly mixed in, uh, and it's not always clear, you know, how much of a scene is reality.

01:05:32.320 Uh, that becomes more and more of a question as well.

01:05:35.320 And, and I think it's like Blade Runner as where, you know, the more you, the, the more information you get about what actually is happening, the worse the film gets, like the cuts where they try to explain everything about, you know, who's a replicant and who isn't and who's definitive.

01:05:48.780 It's like, no, actually the ambiguity is a much better, uh, aspect of the film.

01:05:53.460 So I think it's actually better that we don't know, uh, you know, how much of that is, is manufactured by the government.

01:05:59.360 How much of what happened is, is his imagination.

01:06:02.320 I think all of that being ambiguous is part of the charm and, and, uh, uh, creepy weird also says Jesus comes with baggage.

01:06:12.580 Santa comes with Coke.

01:06:14.220 I see.

01:06:14.700 I see what you did there.

01:06:16.080 I see what you did there.

01:06:17.440 All right.

01:06:18.260 Yeah.

01:06:18.740 Uh, well, we're going to go ahead and wrap this one up guys again, make sure to check out Steven's channel, especially that violence of the left, uh, series.

01:06:25.840 That's an excellent.

01:06:26.400 Left-wing terror.

01:06:27.520 Left-wing terror.

01:06:28.140 There's a playlist.

01:06:28.500 If you go to my channel, you can find the playlist.

01:06:30.800 It's all there in order.

01:06:32.160 Absolutely.

01:06:32.740 And of course, if it's your first time on this channel, make sure that you go ahead and subscribe.

01:06:37.180 Make sure that you turn on your notifications, click the bell, everything that you need to catch these streams when they go live.

01:06:43.360 Uh, if you'd like to get these broadcasts as podcasts, make sure that you go ahead and subscribe to the Orr McIntyre show on your favorite podcast platform.

01:06:50.020 And if you guys would like to check me out over on Timcast, I'll be on the show tomorrow night.

01:06:54.720 So I'll see you over there.

01:06:56.260 Thank you for watching guys.

01:06:57.680 And as always, I'll talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - April 03, 2024

The Prophetic Brilliance of 'Brazil' ｜ Guest： Radical Liberation ｜ 4⧸3⧸24

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