The Auron MacIntyre Show - The State of the Anti-Woke Coalition ｜ Guest： Benjamin Boyce

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00:00:29.760 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.320 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.060 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.160 So, Wokeness.

00:00:38.200 So many of us hate it, but do the factions that hate it hate each other more than they hate Wokeness itself?

00:00:45.960 Benjamin Boyce is a guy who does a great show.

00:00:49.080 I've been on there a couple times.

00:00:50.540 And he kind of serves as a nexus for many different factions that have some kind of problem, I think, with Wokeness.

00:00:58.100 Some of them are classical liberals.

00:00:59.780 Some of them are on the new right.

00:01:01.580 Some of them are more of your traditional conservatives.

00:01:04.020 Some of them are concerned leftists, just hoping that they can pull things back from the edge of insanity.

00:01:08.480 But I thought he would be a great guy to talk about the state of the anti-woke coalition,

00:01:13.440 what these different factions feel about each other,

00:01:15.480 and whether he thinks there's any kind of future going forward for those that oppose this movement.

00:01:20.600 But before we get to all that, guys, let me introduce you to, of course, our guest today.

00:01:24.960 Benjamin, thanks for coming on, man.

00:01:26.800 All right.

00:01:27.120 Great to see you again, man.

00:01:28.400 How have you been?

00:01:29.380 It's been good.

00:01:30.040 Been good.

00:01:30.460 It's good talking to you.

00:01:31.440 Glad you can finally come to this side.

00:01:34.200 We can have a show over on my platform.

00:01:37.080 Like I said, I want to get into all of these different factions,

00:01:39.900 what Benjamin thinks about the developments that have been going on and kind of this anti-woke side.

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00:03:24.580 All right, so Benjamin, I think when I said you were coming on, a lot of people said,

00:03:30.760 oh, it's the one centrist I like.

00:03:32.620 It's the only one left that I can actually put up with anymore.

00:03:37.340 Because I think so many people are extremely tired of this way that a lot of people frame things.

00:03:44.200 Well, it's not the left or the right.

00:03:47.140 It's both.

00:03:47.820 I oppose all of this.

00:03:48.840 I'm just the rational guy.

00:03:50.000 I'm just the guy that is, you know, looking at the facts.

00:03:53.440 I don't have a team.

00:03:54.440 I'm my own man.

00:03:56.160 Do you even see yourself as a centrist at this point?

00:03:59.140 Oh, I like the centrist protocol.

00:04:02.980 So when I started doing my work on my channel, it was because I went to the most wokest university

00:04:10.300 in America that went super woke, Evergreen State College.

00:04:12.880 And so I spent a lot of time studying that event and studying the way that this anti-racist

00:04:20.760 and leftist-ish post-modernist progressivism played out in psychologically and then in people's

00:04:30.080 behavior.

00:04:31.960 And so I started studying those things and I started interviewing people to gain more understanding

00:04:39.840 of this stuff.

00:04:40.540 So I just was participating in understanding the critique of wokeness.

00:04:45.220 And so I became more and more skeptical of leftism over time because of the psychological

00:04:52.100 aspects of it, the aesthetic aspects of it, and then also the stuff that you talk about

00:04:57.060 and kind of people in your wheelhouse about analyzing power and how it operates.

00:05:03.060 So I'm definitely skeptical, but I like the liberal framework or the aesthetic of just

00:05:10.680 being open to conversing with people and meeting people where they are.

00:05:15.500 Though I do select who I speak to, radical leftists turn me off and I have a hard time

00:05:21.160 with socialism and communism and stuff.

00:05:22.740 So I'm not like, I don't go both sides as deep as I do.

00:05:27.760 I'm more interested in what's happening on the right than what's happening on the left.

00:05:32.400 And I'm more skeptical of what's happening on the left than I am skeptical of what's happening

00:05:38.160 right.

00:05:38.420 But I keep an open mind.

00:05:40.160 So I think by behavior, I'm a liberal, by behavior, I'm a centrist because I just suspend

00:05:47.780 my own opinion to allow, you know, interacting with other opinions.

00:05:53.660 So kind of constitutionally liberal, if not officially political in the, in the kind of

00:05:58.580 assuming of those, those priors and that system of political belief.

00:06:04.480 Well, I spoke with, I spoke with Sargon of Akkad, Carl Benjamin earlier and this summer,

00:06:11.560 this past summer, and, you know, going through his critique of liberalism and, you know, and

00:06:17.460 he keeps on coming back to like, liberalism is the outgrowth of a people and a state in

00:06:23.480 history.

00:06:23.920 It's very particular.

00:06:25.480 And the liberal assumptions are trying to interact with the blank slate and rational agents and

00:06:31.860 stuff like that.

00:06:32.580 And he's critiquing that, but I still hear him critiquing it as a liberal because he's

00:06:37.100 culturally a liberal.

00:06:38.040 He can't escape liberalism any more than, you know, these other cultures can escape their

00:06:43.020 own cultures.

00:06:43.800 And I think that, you know, growing up when I did in the nineties, eighties, nineties,

00:06:48.520 that like, it's just baked into how I operate.

00:06:51.280 And even if I put on airs of being communist or fascist or whatever, it like, it doesn't

00:06:56.640 really, it's not really my country.

00:06:58.780 My country is liberalism.

00:07:01.060 Does that make sense?

00:07:01.860 No, it does.

00:07:02.920 There's a lot of people who don't like the term post liberal, but I think it's actually

00:07:06.220 super helpful, at least in, in the sense that, you know, guys like me might have a lot of

00:07:12.200 critiques of liberalism.

00:07:13.960 Carl might have a lot of critiques, at least to what liberalism did as it mutated beyond

00:07:18.540 its kind of natural borders.

00:07:20.060 But as you say, ultimately, we're both still creatures of kind of this post enlightenment

00:07:24.940 society.

00:07:25.860 A lot of the assumptions, a lot of the language, a lot of the symbolism that we onboard is marinated

00:07:32.460 deeply in these concepts.

00:07:34.500 And so even as we're trying to find what comes next, we recognize kind of a natural end,

00:07:39.820 perhaps, to the cycle of this belief, as so many ideologies and beliefs do come to a particular

00:07:45.880 end.

00:07:46.320 And we are still using much of the language because there's no way to escape it.

00:07:50.680 I found this particularly interesting when I looked at some of some philosophers like,

00:07:56.280 you know, you look at someone like Deleuze who did call himself a Marxist, but a guy like

00:08:01.400 Nick Land who, you know, does not ultimately.

00:08:04.580 But they both heavily are using that language, even though Land would say that, say, Deleuze

00:08:10.380 is trying to escape Marxism in a lot of ways.

00:08:12.760 But the culture of academia at that time is so heavily marinated in it that even those

00:08:17.980 that are critiquing it or trying to break out of many of the assumptions can only really

00:08:23.120 use the language that is currently in fashion if they want to be taken seriously, if they

00:08:27.280 want to be able to communicate with their peers.

00:08:29.520 And so I feel like there's a moment there where we're post a lot of this stuff.

00:08:33.920 We're looking at liberalism.

00:08:35.100 We're looking at at least some of its assumptions are falling away.

00:08:38.800 But the only way to address that is still inside some level of liberal critique.

00:08:43.580 And so you have you have a moment of there's this somewhat liminal space where you're, you

00:08:49.400 know, you're you're possibly moving, transitioning from one way of understanding the world to

00:08:54.340 another.

00:08:54.820 But you can only really still do it with the language of the previous ideology.

00:09:01.140 And in this way, I think ultimately anything we make or anything we do beyond this, be it

00:09:06.660 left or right, will be post liberal in the sense that it will have to carry the language

00:09:11.600 of liberalism forward.

00:09:13.780 It will carry some of the assumptions, some of the understandings forward.

00:09:17.400 You know, you don't completely discard an entire paradigm for hundreds of years.

00:09:22.160 You generally you carry some level of that into the next iteration.

00:09:25.640 If that makes sense, what's something in liberalism that is going away or that needs to be reviewed?

00:09:34.700 Is it liberty?

00:09:35.460 Because when I speak, when I argue about liberalism with my wife, she's like, well, I don't want

00:09:39.720 any authority over me.

00:09:41.000 But I'm like, well, I don't even think the liberal, like us 90s guys, like understand

00:09:46.800 authority anymore.

00:09:47.640 We used to have authority in the institutions, but that's going away.

00:09:51.540 Right.

00:09:52.000 So I don't even think we have a concept of authority, but we have a knee jerk reaction to authoritarianism.

00:09:56.860 So when we critique liberalism, people get defensive about it because they want that liberty and

00:10:02.600 that freedom.

00:10:03.400 Right.

00:10:03.800 They don't want a totalitarian influx.

00:10:06.720 And so I think that that's what they critique when they critique woke.

00:10:09.700 And now this idea of the woke right is people in the center, whatever that means, looking

00:10:14.960 at a growing desire or at least overture of a totalitarianism that's being kind of, you

00:10:23.000 know, intimated on the right.

00:10:26.020 So can you help me with that?

00:10:27.920 When we critique liberalism, do you want to live in a post free society, a post liberty

00:10:33.400 society?

00:10:34.620 Well, I think, and I know this is going to sound pedantic, but we got to define our terms

00:10:39.060 if we want to get anywhere.

00:10:40.440 I think there's a danger in conflating freedom and liberty because none of the ancients would

00:10:45.520 have understood what the libertine aspect of our current culture as liberty.

00:10:52.920 That's not, you know, ordered liberty was something that was manifested in a community.

00:10:57.720 Aristotle understood this as a relation between people who fill certain roles.

00:11:01.880 And you could not be a virtuous human.

00:11:05.160 You could not live a virtuous life without being inside a community.

00:11:08.840 And therefore, you could not have the liberty to pursue that life unless you were in these

00:11:13.780 communal relations and took on roles and aspects that were necessary for the flourishing of

00:11:19.680 humanity at the level in which you engaged with it.

00:11:21.940 And so when we say freedom, a lot of people are like, well, the freedom to do heroin in

00:11:25.920 a gutter, that's a little different than, say, the liberty to pursue, you know, the building

00:11:31.520 of a family, the worshiping of, you know, a deity.

00:11:34.680 These things are there are degrees of liberty that are not necessarily just just completely

00:11:40.900 unbound freedom in the same.

00:11:42.380 Yeah, yeah.

00:11:43.160 But who imposes the rails?

00:11:45.120 Right.

00:11:46.000 Yeah.

00:11:46.220 And this is this is always important, right?

00:11:49.020 There are always rails.

00:11:50.560 I think this is the failure of liberalism at its end point now.

00:11:54.980 And, you know, Paul Godfrey does it really good.

00:11:57.060 If you want to I don't know if you've ever read any Paul Godfrey stuff.

00:11:59.480 I need to have him on my channel.

00:12:00.780 He's yeah, he's a really interesting guy.

00:12:02.440 Yeah, after liberalism is a great book.

00:12:04.900 And really, he explains that what we think of as liberalism today, kind of this post John

00:12:10.140 Dewey mutation of liberalism, this managerialism, as I've written about, we've talked about

00:12:15.320 before, is radically different than the liberalism of a, you know, John Locke, you know, John Locke

00:12:22.200 said atheists shouldn't be allowed to hold public office, you know, that they should be put,

00:12:26.840 you know, that they were not trustworthy.

00:12:28.080 The idea that his liberalism, the liberalism that said, well, free speech, but not for

00:12:32.940 atheists, obviously, like and as compared to the liberalism of today, these are radically

00:12:37.940 different things.

00:12:38.880 And so, you know, the problem I have with most classical liberals is that they are in no way

00:12:42.820 classically liberal, like they in no way actually deal with any of the arguments or the any of the

00:12:47.820 context in which arguments were made for liberalism in its founding, right?

00:12:52.660 They don't actually hold most of the beliefs that classical liberals held.

00:12:56.980 What they mean today is this radical libertine understanding.

00:13:01.440 And one of the things that's sold under this is the idea that there's just no authority,

00:13:05.420 as if like somewhere the kids in the 90s that, you know, they just, there was no authority

00:13:09.400 over them.

00:13:10.160 But that was never true.

00:13:11.240 Like there was always a rail.

00:13:12.900 There was always untouchable topics.

00:13:14.920 There were always taboos.

00:13:16.400 There are always religious icons that we just didn't acknowledge.

00:13:19.580 We just held in loosely enough.

00:13:21.820 And so I think there's, I think there's this moment where people like to pretend like,

00:13:26.460 oh, well, because we're in this transitory state between perhaps the conservative understanding

00:13:31.260 of liberty and the more progressive understanding of liberty.

00:13:35.960 And the 90s kind of sat in this, in this transitory moment.

00:13:39.420 It felt like just in that moment where both sides were battling and had pushed each other

00:13:43.500 away that you could say or do anything, but that was only because the rails, it was that

00:13:47.920 we were transitioning from one set of rails to another.

00:13:50.140 Not that all the rails had just been disposed of.

00:13:53.720 Yeah.

00:13:53.920 But so what, do we have a choice between different sets of rails?

00:13:58.520 And I, that could probably bend into the critique of the woke is always implicitly the desire

00:14:05.760 for something that's not woke.

00:14:07.160 Right.

00:14:08.360 So like Christian nationalists, probably a little bit stronger than the classical liberal,

00:14:13.220 which is a little bit more, you know, founding fathers, more like hold these things, these,

00:14:17.480 we hold these truths self-evidently, but loosely, you know.

00:14:21.840 Yeah.

00:14:22.100 Well, I do want to avoid, you know, the, the role reversal of you interviewing me, but

00:14:26.880 I'm here to get your opinion into it.

00:14:31.100 I appreciate your, your, your, your judo here of, of, of reversing the interview, but

00:14:36.240 I do actually want to understand because I know what I believe, you know, I'm more than

00:14:39.840 happy to, to respond, but I genuinely am, I'm here to, to understand as, you know, for

00:14:45.480 someone who is not sitting somewhere, I guess, in whatever we're calling the new right or

00:14:49.800 the distant right or whatever, you know, as, as somebody who comes from a little different

00:14:53.160 background is interviewing a wider variety of people.

00:14:56.280 What I want to grasp is, is your sense of this, because as you point out, you know, there's

00:15:01.840 this anti-woke coalition.

00:15:02.960 And I remember this moment, you know, when I first kind of ran into, I guess what we could

00:15:06.700 call YouTube political spheres in, you know, 2015, 2016.

00:15:10.880 I, I heard about this thing called Gamergate ran into this guy, sour gun of a cod and from

00:15:16.440 him, I just, you know, Dave Rubin and Ben Shapiro and all these people, I really wasn't

00:15:20.260 familiar with Milo Yiannopoulos, you know, who's, who's now making his return, I guess.

00:15:24.540 But, you know, this moment of where, where it was just a lot of people who didn't like

00:15:30.000 what was happening on college campuses and all of these things.

00:15:32.980 And they seem to have very wildly different views.

00:15:35.740 You had people who described themselves as hardcore leftists and you had people who were,

00:15:40.380 you know, Ben Shapiro, who was supposed to be at, you know, I understood at the time

00:15:43.340 as this fire breathing conservative, you know, and you had this, this very broad understanding

00:15:49.200 that whatever is happening right now in public is not good, you know, and, and, and we need

00:15:55.340 to stand against it.

00:15:56.340 But the longer this has gone on, and at this point we're at least 10 years removed from

00:16:01.680 kind of the beginning of this anti-woke push, a decade later, it feels like the woke have

00:16:08.260 not gone away, that the power of wokeness, there, there may be, and we can get to that,

00:16:13.780 I guess, you know, as well, whether this is kind of fading or not, but, but, but it feels

00:16:17.980 like there has not been a definitive solution.

00:16:20.700 And because there's not been a definitive solution, we now see the factions starting to say,

00:16:25.280 well, we need more of my thing.

00:16:27.240 We have to avoid the woke right because we need to be more objective.

00:16:30.820 Well, no, we need more Christian nationalism because your objective centrism was simply

00:16:35.400 not enough.

00:16:36.280 No, we need more, you know, return to the constitution because that's really what's going to, you

00:16:40.720 know, and so each one of the factions having gone through 10 years of not really seeing

00:16:44.460 the anti-woke coalition, uh, have, have a big victory are now saying, well, we need more

00:16:49.400 of my thing to, to make this possible.

00:16:51.180 And so I just, I just wanted to know where you thought that left everyone standing or, you

00:16:54.820 know, your general impression of that.

00:16:56.860 There's a pretty interesting history that should be written at some point because you're right.

00:17:02.320 Gamergate is really powerful because that's just a, that's, that's an influx point, but

00:17:06.740 also 2017, something happened in 2017 and 2018, where I landed on the scene with, uh, Barry

00:17:13.860 Weiss wrote this article about the intellectual dark web.

00:17:17.000 Yes.

00:17:18.000 I remember the New York times spreads.

00:17:19.000 Yeah.

00:17:20.000 Yeah.

00:17:21.000 By Eric Weinstein, which is Brett Weinstein's brother.

00:17:22.000 Brett was not my teacher, but we were, we were at the same college and, uh, for a moment

00:17:27.280 there, you saw this really weird thing happening where Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson were selling

00:17:34.280 out stadiums.

00:17:35.280 Yes.

00:17:36.280 Like they go on these speaking tours and all these people showed up.

00:17:39.020 So there was something fascinating about everybody wanted to go and listen to a college lecture.

00:17:44.640 And then there's also this big switch from, uh, the mainstream media and written articles

00:17:49.880 to the dawn of the podcast and people really going back to an oral and oral society rather

00:17:56.860 than a text-based society.

00:17:58.180 And I think that that's interacting with our brains in novel ways and causing us to make

00:18:04.040 different connections with, uh, our content and the content creators.

00:18:08.640 And there's these parasocial relationships and there's this audience capture because

00:18:12.340 things are so happening so quickly.

00:18:13.940 So this is, this is all happening within a context of some very novel technology.

00:18:18.200 And, and I think that that stuff is disrupting a lot of how we look and relate to each other

00:18:24.420 and relate to the world and look at the world.

00:18:26.140 So there's that and the IDW tanked at a very specific moment.

00:18:31.100 There was this guy named Travis Pangburn who's doing most of the bookings and he ended up

00:18:36.240 getting in trouble because he was, it was unintentionally, I'd study this for a bit.

00:18:40.780 I don't think he intended to do it, but he started doing a pyramid scam where he was selling

00:18:45.280 tickets for the next event to pay for this event.

00:18:47.380 And it just ran away from him because there's no way that these intellectuals could actually

00:18:51.900 fill these stadiums and make enough money.

00:18:54.400 And it kind of, there was this moment in New York where they're all going to meet and

00:18:59.160 it was just this great centrist talking across boundaries and it just kind of collapsed on

00:19:03.480 itself.

00:19:03.980 And a lot of people were out of money and it kind of fizzled in this way, and this iteration

00:19:09.020 of the IDW kind of fractured.

00:19:11.440 And from that moment, they stopped, they, they got more and more into their own bubbles.

00:19:15.060 That group of people, they were kind of like these, it's kind of the Avengers, you know,

00:19:19.440 like they all had their different skin colors and, and their suits of armor and, and kind

00:19:23.480 of like their, their wheelhouses and stuff like that.

00:19:26.240 And then, then a number of different shocks occurred that split them up over different

00:19:32.940 issues.

00:19:33.960 COVID was a really big one.

00:19:35.440 And you see where Sam Harris was in that group and Brett Weinstein was in that group.

00:19:40.620 And they had two totally different ways of interpreting the response to COVID and, you

00:19:46.500 know, all the medical stuff and the institutional stuff.

00:19:49.320 And from what I saw, Sam, who has no God, ended up believing in the institutions and putting

00:19:55.320 so much faith in these things called institutions.

00:19:57.880 And that's why he really hates Donald Trump because Donald Trump's an existential threat to

00:20:02.260 these institutions.

00:20:03.540 Brett has a more evolutionary psychologist lens or just evolutionary biology lens.

00:20:09.660 And he critiques power and these systems of power in a different way where he can critique

00:20:15.040 them.

00:20:15.280 He doesn't necessarily have to believe in these institutions, though you can see him getting

00:20:19.280 really antsy about, you know, the amount of technology and the, how complex our society

00:20:26.880 is.

00:20:27.480 We need these institutions to regulate the power grid.

00:20:30.720 And if we set up these nuclear armaments and nuclear energy things, we have to have a whole

00:20:35.400 bunch of competent people and we have to trust these institutions too.

00:20:38.640 So he's, but you see this breakdown in communication on that issue.

00:20:44.580 And what Paul VanderKley, who's a Calvinist, reformed Calvinist minister in Sacramento, I don't

00:20:50.500 know if you know him at all.

00:20:51.520 Oh, I've had Paul on.

00:20:52.260 Yeah, yeah.

00:20:52.680 Okay.

00:20:53.000 He's a great, great man.

00:20:54.180 He spoke about these, he spoke about discourse kind of as a delta, like the end of a river

00:21:00.380 where there's all these different streams and there's these different lives that live,

00:21:03.820 life forms that live in these different streams.

00:21:05.520 And every once in a while there'll be this, this flood and all of these creatures will

00:21:10.200 intermingle and then the, the flood will die down and they, they separate.

00:21:15.400 And so what we see is there, there, there's these instances where people will meet and

00:21:20.440 gather, and then they'll eventually go into their different streams and their different

00:21:25.300 ideologies or their different ways.

00:21:26.740 And they can't communicate to each other anymore.

00:21:29.460 And I think that when you have a common enemy, that's one way that people gather together.

00:21:34.460 And when you describe the woke, that was a common cause.

00:21:37.920 The woke owns Hollywood.

00:21:39.480 It owns the federal government.

00:21:40.900 We know that, you know that you, you talk about it in your own way, uh, critiquing it

00:21:45.040 through, I don't know, I don't want to pigeonhole you, but like Machiavellian power analysis

00:21:49.380 kind of stuff, which I think is really interesting.

00:21:51.540 Um, so, so you've always been picky about your produce, but now you find yourself checking

00:21:58.640 every label to make sure it's Canadian.

00:22:01.160 So be it.

00:22:02.300 At Sobeys, we always pick guaranteed fresh Canadian produce first.

00:22:06.600 Restrictions apply.

00:22:07.540 See in store or online for details.

00:22:09.320 When, when the enemy, so I guess to try to get to your question, people found common cause

00:22:19.420 going against the woke or found common cause like fighting against lockdowns.

00:22:23.560 And then that issue tends to be beyond them, beyond any given one of them, because it's,

00:22:30.520 this is why I like your type of analysis, because there's something about it that's baked into

00:22:34.560 the system and until we figure out that the system, until we figure out this, how to attack

00:22:41.260 the system, we're just kind of hitting it.

00:22:44.720 We're kind of throwing toothpicks at a dragon kind of thing.

00:22:48.000 And we do it all together and we feel really good.

00:22:50.340 And, and, you know, every five days, like the end of wokeness, the end of woke Disney,

00:22:54.980 the end of this, the end of this, but it keeps on rearing its head.

00:22:57.500 And why is that?

00:22:59.000 Um, and so I think it's frustrating for people who are really concerned about the direction

00:23:04.520 of history and our society, um, to see this problem, to speak about it, get a lot of credibility

00:23:11.300 speaking to it, and then see their efforts kind of wasted and they have to make compromises

00:23:17.540 somehow.

00:23:17.940 And that's what the beauty of this thing called MAGA, I think there's something that's loose

00:23:22.680 enough about the big tent Trump approach for some reason that is allowing many people to

00:23:27.660 dwell under there.

00:23:28.460 And, and so when I see, you know, people attacking each other who are nominally all against this

00:23:35.200 woke thing, they find like a common place.

00:23:38.720 And so there's just something promising in the direction of that on a political level.

00:23:45.520 I need you to chime in.

00:23:47.040 No, no, no, no, this is all fascinating and I'm just absorbing it for a moment, but yeah,

00:23:51.920 I do think that there needs to be a, actually, uh, let's, uh, let's cut to a break real quick.

00:23:57.320 And then when we come back, I want to go deeper into, I want to go deeper into, uh, the coalition

00:24:03.220 and what's happened to it.

00:24:04.420 Cause I, I do think there's a lot to, uh, to, to unpack there, but yeah, let's hear from

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00:25:29.540 So I think the part you got to at the end there was really critical because when you

00:25:35.480 have different factions, when everybody has a different agenda, but they are co-belligerents

00:25:40.680 to some degree, you're going to end up in this scenario where the longer the fight goes

00:25:46.240 on, the more the factions start to recognize their own differences, especially when it comes

00:25:52.520 to frustration, right?

00:25:53.480 Like you're trying to coordinate along this axis of anti-wokeness, but you recognize that

00:25:58.780 maybe there's different aspects of wokeness that you actually oppose more than others.

00:26:03.700 In fact, there might be some parts of wokeness that certain enemies, certain allies actually

00:26:11.780 see as advantageous to themselves.

00:26:14.420 And maybe they want to keep a certain piece of that, or maybe they don't want to go as hard

00:26:18.840 against it, or you realize that the more you try to coordinate across these goals, you

00:26:23.920 realize that actually the lack of shared values or moral vision prevents you from cooperating

00:26:30.960 in this area.

00:26:32.320 And what a guy like Trump does is, for better or for worse, however people feel about this,

00:26:38.860 acts as a Caesar figure.

00:26:40.180 He acts as somebody who steps in and says, whatever the problems are, what the differences

00:26:44.680 are, this is the direction we're going, and maybe I'll be the great decider and I'll sort

00:26:50.300 these things out when we're done, but right now we crush this enemy, right?

00:26:54.160 Like that's where we're going.

00:26:55.480 I'm the general.

00:26:56.200 I'm the leader.

00:26:57.040 If you're going to be in my movement, you find a way to work together, and then we can

00:27:01.560 hash it out at the end.

00:27:03.660 And so I think that's kind of the function that that serves.

00:27:07.740 Not that it ultimately resolves many of these problems, but at least gives you a central

00:27:13.980 figure that kind of allows you to say, all right, well, at least we're on this team.

00:27:17.940 And it's not ideological.

00:27:19.240 It really is leadership that solves this problem more than hashing out the ideological differences.

00:27:26.280 Yeah.

00:27:26.520 Yeah.

00:27:26.720 And there's not a lot of natural leaders.

00:27:28.580 That was another interesting thing about the IDW, so-called, or the people in it.

00:27:33.380 They were professors, podcasters.

00:27:36.120 They were not PR people, and you can see a lot of cringe coming from them because they

00:27:40.720 would not, they're not natural politicians, you know, they're kind of professors and stuff.

00:27:44.240 And so you see their evolution as public figures, and there's just a different landscape when

00:27:48.560 you are in the public sphere that it molds you, it shapes you.

00:27:52.040 You take on the form of a demagogue, whether you like it or not.

00:27:55.220 And so you have to, you have to manage that.

00:27:57.680 And it's kind of scary when you're like, well, I don't want to be a leader or anything,

00:28:01.660 or you get tempted by the power.

00:28:03.900 I see people go, they get, you know, 10,000 followers, and then they think that they're

00:28:09.300 a leader, you know, and they're not really a leader.

00:28:11.260 So there's that aspect to it.

00:28:13.420 And so, you know, these different woke or anti-woke factions, they have different critiques,

00:28:21.100 but they're not necessarily, well, and then they have different, so I love to talk to them

00:28:25.280 and say, well, what's the solution?

00:28:27.120 You know, what's the solution?

00:28:28.580 And it's always like, it's so nefarious, it's very nebulous.

00:28:33.760 So somebody like Trump, he's got this, he's got meme magic.

00:28:37.240 He's got this really electric personality.

00:28:40.300 He, he, people have opinions about him.

00:28:43.260 Very good at dodging bullets.

00:28:44.860 He's, yeah, that's a really good quality of a leader.

00:28:48.560 It's a good skill to have in a leader.

00:28:50.620 You see that one about Kamala dodging interviews and Trump dodging.

00:28:54.100 Trump dodging bullets, yeah, yeah.

00:28:56.180 Yeah.

00:28:56.580 So, but on the reverse of that, a lot of, you get a lot of attention and you have to have

00:29:03.800 a certain amount of ego to attract that attention.

00:29:07.260 You also have to know how to be a follower.

00:29:09.360 And so that's another test in actual political movement or change, political change.

00:29:16.580 You have to know when to follow and you have to know when to be a leader.

00:29:20.320 And you can't just be a cat going here and there and scratching everybody's, you know,

00:29:25.680 hindquarters that, you know, deviates from your plan.

00:29:28.180 And not everybody's got that skill.

00:29:30.020 So they're lightning rods in a certain respect, but they're only going to go so far.

00:29:36.240 And so you have to kind of, I think it's really beneficial.

00:29:39.800 Just like my studies of your crew, like the DR, the new, the new right, whatever it is.

00:29:45.820 It's like, there's all these individual thinkers with these individual ways of putting things

00:29:49.940 together and they have different personalities and you put them into a can and you shake them

00:29:53.800 up and some weird stuff's going to happen.

00:29:55.620 But if I can survey them, then I can kind of start to build a picture or rely on their

00:30:01.460 different levels of analysis to get more stability in my view of the world.

00:30:06.040 But the question is, why do I need a view of the world?

00:30:08.440 That's one question I keep on coming back to.

00:30:10.320 Are we even built to think this way about the world, about, you know, all these wars

00:30:15.100 going on here, these huge, uh, inorganic egregores, these states and stuff.

00:30:19.980 Can we really comprehend them?

00:30:23.180 Yeah, that's...

00:30:23.700 It's like, uh, you take a shot at it.

00:30:26.560 So I admire that you take a shot at it.

00:30:28.700 Yeah, I think that really is the, the, the crisis is we are dealing with a problem of scale

00:30:34.040 that simply, I don't know that we have the ability to overcome.

00:30:37.560 Like I genuinely, I am critical of the idea that really we can maintain social organization

00:30:43.500 at this level, which I know is terrifying to someone like say Brett, because he's like,

00:30:47.100 well, we have a lot of really dangerous stuff that's requiring organization at this scale.

00:30:51.600 And of course he's entirely correct, but I guess my point is that's true, but better to

00:30:57.880 realize that limitation now and adjust for it best you can rather than saying, well, we

00:31:04.440 just have to make it work because otherwise everything comes apart because what you end

00:31:09.000 up doing is only going further down that role, only investing more in, you know, the type

00:31:15.280 of scaling that is going to require the type of scaling, you know, it becomes a, a self-feeding

00:31:19.740 cycle.

00:31:20.280 The real accelerationism is, is actually our, our willingness to plug ourselves into vast

00:31:28.140 grids that require, you know, even more acceleration.

00:31:31.920 And so I think this is that, that itself is its own problem, but I think this is also why

00:31:37.260 the anti-woke coalition is, is so many factions because in a real, in organic politics, you would

00:31:44.500 have communities and communities would have shared moral visions based on shared history and

00:31:49.820 religious understanding, cultural ways of being, this would not be a grand ideological, you

00:31:58.300 know, creations.

00:32:00.640 But because we have abandoned so much of that form of social organization and we have embraced

00:32:07.060 really the ideological last century or two, we've almost lost the idea of what that even

00:32:13.040 looks like.

00:32:14.180 And so now, you know, people are so geographically removed from the people who share their values

00:32:19.700 and their common understanding that ideology, the only way, this is the same problem people

00:32:24.740 have with race, right?

00:32:25.680 Like they, because we've lost the idea of ethnos, we have this really ugly block of race

00:32:30.920 politics now because everyone only understands how to operate at scale on these, on these very

00:32:36.180 massive and artificial abstractions.

00:32:38.040 And we have the same problem, I think with politics and ideology.

00:32:41.020 We, we only, well, that's why we're still arguing over ideologies that have been dead for a

00:32:45.580 century at this point, you know, fascism, oh boy, yeah, it's coming back.

00:32:49.440 Who are you kidding?

00:32:50.260 Come on.

00:32:50.840 You know, even communism at this point, you know, one way and where maybe we have gay

00:32:54.400 race communism now, but Marxism, as we understand it, classical Marxism is dead.

00:32:58.680 It's not coming back.

00:32:59.940 No, no one's actually going back to that.

00:33:01.680 And so, you know, we're still arguing over these ideological constructs because we don't

00:33:06.240 even know what organic political organization looks like.

00:33:09.600 And then when we have a collection of people who are like, well, we don't like the wokeness

00:33:14.460 because it's a somewhat cohesive understanding, not based even on, you know, congruent ideologies,

00:33:19.700 but just basically incentive factors that drive this giant complex of intersectional ideology.

00:33:26.740 You know, we don't, the only thing we know how to do is then ourselves like, you know,

00:33:30.740 say, well, if we just get a little more of my ideology, that solves the problem.

00:33:34.000 And there's no real, you know, every one of these people who I've sat down with in real

00:33:38.500 life, any of these internet people I've sat down in real life, I've gotten along with.

00:33:41.640 It's not been a problem.

00:33:42.580 We've had a good, productive conversation.

00:33:44.800 But as soon as you get back into the, you know, these kind of, you know, these internet

00:33:49.360 cells and into these ideologies, there's just no, there's no crossover anymore.

00:33:54.040 It's all, you know, protecting your, your turf, your, your area.

00:33:57.940 Yeah.

00:33:58.160 I think it's a, that's a matter of discipline.

00:34:01.240 That's the human element.

00:34:02.240 I mean, we, I got into a dustup with Constantine Kissin or Constantine Kissin about his critique

00:34:08.880 of the woke right, his critique of Daryl Cooper and Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens.

00:34:14.260 And I felt that he was bottling up a lot of thinkers on the new right or dissident right

00:34:21.080 and trying to cast them all as woke because they have a different understanding, a different

00:34:26.380 critique.

00:34:26.800 And so I, today I was blessed to get to hash it out with him and just really investigate

00:34:34.020 him and let my misconceptions fall away and just listen to the guy and see who he is and

00:34:40.780 how he's operating and kind of test his authenticity by listening to him and then allowing him to,

00:34:46.940 to state his case and then kind of coming to a more, a better understanding.

00:34:50.280 But the incentive structures of the internet is if you say spicy things, if you come out

00:34:54.280 pugilistically, uh, co-belligerent, I, is that a word?

00:34:58.160 Did you just make that up?

00:34:59.100 That's a really good one.

00:34:59.780 No, no, it's a real word.

00:35:00.480 Co-belligerents.

00:35:01.000 Okay, that's great.

00:35:01.420 People who are not allies, but are fighting on the same side.

00:35:03.780 Yeah, yeah.

00:35:04.560 Okay.

00:35:04.880 Yeah.

00:35:05.140 It's just, you can, you get a lot of traction by acting in a certain way, but that, that way

00:35:10.680 of interacting erodes connection.

00:35:13.280 And you have to, you don't just, you know, people say touch grass, but really being conscious

00:35:20.100 of the human being that you're touching through the internet, the human, the, the internet's

00:35:24.420 just an interface for human connection.

00:35:25.940 That's really what it is.

00:35:27.500 But it's not, sorry, not, not, I don't want to, I don't want to roll you over here, but

00:35:31.060 I do think this is an important distinction.

00:35:32.560 The internet is not a, a, a, a, a avenue for human connection at all.

00:35:37.300 This is my theory, at least.

00:35:38.460 I don't think humans are capable of, uh, truly understanding each other, uh, at that

00:35:45.580 level of abstraction.

00:35:46.820 Like, um, you, you know, the, how they put the portals in New York and Ireland and the

00:35:51.580 minute they put those, those like video portals in the Jewish tunnel theory.

00:35:55.560 No, no, no, no, no.

00:35:56.900 Okay.

00:35:57.300 People have already forgotten about that story.

00:35:58.960 No, they put the, um, they put the video, video screens, the live video screens.

00:36:03.620 They call them portals.

00:36:04.700 It's not an actual magical portal though.

00:36:06.620 Well, perhaps if you take the Jewish tunnel, you eventually end up in Ireland.

00:36:09.160 I don't know.

00:36:09.740 Uh, but, uh, but they put these screens up and, um, when, when they did, the first thing

00:36:16.620 that happened is like, people just started, you know, flicking each other off.

00:36:20.320 Right.

00:36:20.620 Which is, you know, whatever they started insulting each other across continents and eventually

00:36:24.740 escalated to the point where like guys from Ireland were sticking like pictures of

00:36:28.040 nine 11.

00:36:28.580 And like, I hope, I hope that you all die in the next areas, like that kind of stuff.

00:36:33.080 And I, I don't think that's a mistake and I don't think that's weird.

00:36:36.880 I don't think that's just a moment in our culture.

00:36:38.940 I think humans are literally incapable of treating abstract objects on a screen as people

00:36:46.320 and attempts to force humans to do that are actually just misunderstanding human nature.

00:36:53.040 But I could be wrong about that, but that is my strong, how do you explain, how do you

00:36:57.240 explain your work then?

00:36:58.420 Cause everything you do is facilitated by human connection.

00:37:01.120 I mean, you have a bunch of people listening to us now, live chatting back at us.

00:37:05.280 They're here, they're spending their time, their attention attending to us.

00:37:08.760 Now it's one way we're not attending to them unless we'll read some super chats later on.

00:37:12.320 Right.

00:37:12.600 But that's all human beings.

00:37:14.220 It is, but it's not in the real.

00:37:16.460 So, uh, I'll let, let's do some post-modernism here.

00:37:20.060 So Baudrillard, right?

00:37:21.440 Like we're, we're getting into hyper-reality here, right?

00:37:23.820 Like how many levels of abstraction, like how, how many levels of the hyper-real can we be

00:37:29.020 on and still be interacting in a truly human sense?

00:37:32.800 Right.

00:37:33.140 Like, so yes, you are correct.

00:37:34.900 Like I have made friends on this thing we call the dissonant, right?

00:37:39.920 Right.

00:37:40.140 Whatever.

00:37:40.420 Like I am now personally involved with, share meals with, had drinks with, but until I have

00:37:46.820 made that in my real life connection, it is significantly different than people who I

00:37:51.980 only know on like Twitter DMs or those kinds of things.

00:37:55.140 And then there's another level of abstraction between like complete anons.

00:37:58.480 And as somebody who started as an anon, I'm not here, you know, knocking that at all.

00:38:02.740 I'm just saying there is a difference between-

00:38:04.620 Don't go Peterson on us.

00:38:05.440 Yeah, exactly.

00:38:06.020 But there, there is a difference, uh, between, um, even just completely anon interactions

00:38:12.160 and like, and people recognize, again, as people who are trying to organize in real life,

00:38:16.760 we have recognized this, you know, guys who are putting together the old core glory club

00:38:20.740 and the skilledings, they've recognized that the, you know, you know, the first thing is

00:38:24.840 sharing, uh, just face-to-face conversations, not just being a JPEG.

00:38:28.960 And then, you know, being in real life at, you know, these are all different steps that

00:38:33.700 build trust, that build community in a real way.

00:38:35.880 And so there is a certain level of human connection that is occurring right now, but there are

00:38:40.300 people who live their entire lives, as you pointed out in this very parasocial bubble

00:38:43.820 because they, you know, the, in, in very unhealthy, because they believe the thing on the internet

00:38:48.420 is a real human interaction when it isn't at all.

00:38:52.160 I, so there's a couple of ways to take this.

00:38:55.580 I went to Ireland last year.

00:38:56.980 I was invited to a conference around the gender issue, right?

00:39:00.540 Some, uh, gender skeptical people, some gender critical, just like this, this rad tag group

00:39:05.900 of scientists and concerned parents and detransitioners and stuff.

00:39:09.720 And I stumbled into that story by just interviewing and having these conversations with these people.

00:39:15.420 And I ended up interviewing just tons of people.

00:39:17.740 And what I did by doing that was that I gave each one of them a voice and then they recognize

00:39:23.480 each other as having a voice.

00:39:25.520 And then it just kind of, I, I had some small part in facilitating this organization.

00:39:30.340 And when I went to Ireland and I met people, there was some of the parasocial where people

00:39:34.580 were like, oh, you're Benjamin Boyce, or they'd hear my voice.

00:39:36.620 They fart, start falling asleep because that's what they used my work to do.

00:39:40.980 And, you know, I had some Pavlovian kind of like nighttime Zoloft, uh, powers.

00:39:46.340 Um, but for me, it didn't feel any different.

00:39:50.600 Like, I was just like, oh yeah, like I see your whole body now, not just your, you know,

00:39:54.800 this part of you, or like now I, I put the, that little gif or profile picture to an actual

00:40:03.420 body, but it didn't, it felt totally porous to me.

00:40:06.940 See, for me, it feels very different, but perhaps that's just dispositions, you know?

00:40:10.560 Yeah, I don't know.

00:40:11.380 It's just, it's weird.

00:40:12.060 But, so that being said, I, you know, I just became a stepfather of a year and a half ago.

00:40:18.000 And so I spent a lot of time with these boys, 10 and 12.

00:40:21.740 And, um, how I spend time with them is to do things with them.

00:40:25.760 And I got really big into board games.

00:40:27.360 I'm really into all these different Euros and stuff.

00:40:29.400 So we're using this completely constructed, fabulous system to be together and interact

00:40:38.480 through.

00:40:39.020 And so like our personalities and the table talk and like learning different skills,

00:40:43.160 learning math, learning how to pay attention, learning strategy, learning all these different

00:40:46.040 things.

00:40:47.020 We're using this simulation, uh, you know, this game simulation to facilitate this other

00:40:54.180 connection.

00:40:54.660 So I don't like being just with people.

00:40:57.100 I like having interviews and stuff, but like I get really antsy around people.

00:41:00.500 So I want to have something to do while I'm with people.

00:41:03.300 Right.

00:41:03.720 So I know there's, I need a little bit of an escape from people in order to be with

00:41:07.140 them.

00:41:07.520 Yeah.

00:41:07.920 There's nothing to be clear.

00:41:09.420 There's nothing new about needing.

00:41:12.200 So I'm somebody who, uh, played, also played a lot of board games.

00:41:15.740 We've talked about that, you know, at some point we'll have air.

00:41:18.120 That's what I wanted to talk.

00:41:19.120 Oh, okay.

00:41:19.560 Well, then next time we'll, I'll have you on just for the straight board game discussion.

00:41:22.700 Okay.

00:41:23.020 We'll start with Euro games.

00:41:24.540 I want to know all your, your favorite fiddly German games, but deck builders are also important.

00:41:28.940 So make sure you, you, uh, uh, you research, but, um, you know, I'm somebody who is very

00:41:34.340 familiar, uh, as somebody who, who, uh, you know, was around these like gaming stores.

00:41:39.800 I know that there are these, you know, there's these very awkward, you know, autists and in

00:41:44.520 order to get them all together, they all have to memorize the same facts about like Warhammer

00:41:48.560 40 K or magic, the gathering, they don't really talk until you like put that in the center.

00:41:54.340 And then once you do that, you can actually reverse engineer humanity out of them.

00:41:59.540 Like once they start, you know, but they have to like Spurg about space Marines or whatever

00:42:05.400 spell they're casting first.

00:42:07.200 And then like, once you've done this, then you can, and this is just what culture used

00:42:11.880 to be, right?

00:42:12.560 Like all cultures are just these high, this high degree of complex interactions that you're

00:42:18.080 referencing.

00:42:18.800 Right.

00:42:19.160 So we're all referencing the Iliad or we're all referencing Faust or we're all referencing

00:42:23.160 the Bible or we're all referencing Warhammer 40 K, but there's something that is becomes

00:42:27.600 this, you know, substrate from which we can, you know, uh, create this, this interaction.

00:42:32.380 So that is not new.

00:42:34.020 That's not what I'm talking about when I'm talking about the internet.

00:42:36.320 That is not the same thing.

00:42:38.880 I think it is incredibly difficult at scale for people to, uh, across giant distances, uh,

00:42:46.400 be able to regularly interact and treat another person as if they are a human being.

00:42:51.260 Like this is hard in crowds, right?

00:42:53.320 Like just in crowds, think about the way that dynamics change when you go from like two on

00:42:57.600 two to, you know, 200 on 200, like just that itself or 2000 or 2 million.

00:43:03.080 Like they're just, the scale really does radically alter those, those, uh, interactions.

00:43:09.420 And so I think that is a huge factor that, you know, you can't just say, oh, well, it's like

00:43:14.040 a board game.

00:43:14.720 I think there, there, there, something gets lost there.

00:43:17.060 Okay.

00:43:17.240 Let me just, one more challenge.

00:43:19.560 Jesus said that whenever two or three are gathered in my name, I am there.

00:43:23.380 Did he mean except on the internet?

00:43:26.500 An excellent question to be sure.

00:43:28.060 And there, yeah, there, there does.

00:43:29.480 But remember there, he also talks about the importance of gathering in person.

00:43:33.100 Actually, that's a critical, critical factor as well.

00:43:36.460 Um, you know, I, I, I don't, it's again, it's, I have made friends, I have organized,

00:43:40.720 you know, uh, groups.

00:43:42.420 I have, I've done this on the internet.

00:43:43.960 I'm not saying this is impossible, uh, in its entirety.

00:43:47.960 I'm not saying there is no human element to it.

00:43:50.180 What I am saying is just that there is, uh, I, I don't think that ultimately it's entirely

00:43:56.360 possible to treat every human being on the internet as a human being.

00:44:00.300 Uh, it, it, that is not something that's available to you.

00:44:03.860 People can barely treat the people in their, their actual community as human beings.

00:44:08.760 And I, I, I think that there's a level of, uh, of distancing and abstraction that makes

00:44:14.200 it very difficult for people to do it on a regular basis.

00:44:16.180 Yeah, yeah.

00:44:17.180 I think I, at the bottom of these political, uh, problems and ideologies and stuff, it's

00:44:22.400 just human psychology, uh, spirituality, like just being mature, being responsible, understanding

00:44:29.940 like these basic things.

00:44:32.080 And until we return to that, then none of these systems are going to work.

00:44:37.080 And so when, when we talk about post liberalism or liberalism or the failures of liberalism,

00:44:43.340 it's like, maybe it's not the failure of liberalism.

00:44:45.260 It's the failure of liberalism to, uh, to keep something central to the human experience,

00:44:52.180 to put something on top of, of our value system.

00:44:55.360 And there's something that's missing on top and people will say, you know, it's the

00:44:58.240 God or constitution and stuff.

00:44:59.920 But whenever somebody like a Christian nationalist wants us to return to a Christian nation and

00:45:04.760 they make an argument that we always were a Christian nation and we don't work as a nation

00:45:08.140 without Christianity goes on.

00:45:10.500 You're like, well, there still needs to be a living God in the heart of Christianity.

00:45:14.520 And you can't turn people to Jesus who in their heart are not turned to Jesus using

00:45:19.280 that framework that I kind of believe, kind of don't believe, depending on who I'm talking

00:45:22.700 to.

00:45:23.500 Um, and to, so to instigate some level of solidarity, I think it has to simulate connection.

00:45:31.680 So the internet does simulate connection and it simulates ego.

00:45:35.340 Uh, so we're, it's a, it's a tool.

00:45:37.340 I think it's a really powerful tool.

00:45:38.700 And I think, I think it's a human tool and that it can be made out of human beings much more

00:45:43.580 than it's made out of machines.

00:45:44.540 But right now we're kind of serving the machine rather than, uh, the machine serving the human.

00:45:50.500 But it's just like anything, you know, like you drive, do you drive the car?

00:45:53.700 Does the car drive you?

00:45:54.880 Right.

00:45:55.300 Kind of thing, you know, like road rage and stuff like that.

00:45:57.640 So again, I have to apologize to your audience.

00:46:01.580 The way that my mind thinks, I just kind of shoot things out.

00:46:04.340 And like, I see all these connections.

00:46:05.900 I'm not really a good precise thinker.

00:46:08.160 That's why I'm a better interviewer.

00:46:09.500 No, that's more than fine.

00:46:11.260 That's like I said, I wanted to explore, you know, options that I don't normally go to

00:46:16.300 ways, ways I don't normally look at it.

00:46:18.060 That's the, that's the whole reason we're here, but we might just disagree on the question

00:46:22.460 of technology perhaps.

00:46:23.660 And, and we'll find out, I guess, who's right, but that might be as, as far as we can go down

00:46:28.640 that path.

00:46:29.180 But I did want to steer us a little back towards the, the actual question of the coalition itself.

00:46:34.940 So if you, you know, if you look at the coalition as it stands, as you pointed out, you were

00:46:40.060 just talking out to Constantine and when it comes to woke, right.

00:46:42.820 And I certainly was thinking about him among others when I wanted to address this topic.

00:46:47.800 You know, I am somebody who is not a stranger to the, for the need of some level of public

00:46:54.600 pushback, right?

00:46:55.460 Like for me, these are my rules of engagement and they're just mine there, you know, so others

00:47:00.160 might have their own.

00:47:00.780 But for me personally, you know, I understand co-belligerence.

00:47:04.620 So my, my general rule, I think, I think that, um, you know, uh, ultimately, uh, it's correct

00:47:11.000 that, um, no enemies to the right hook.

00:47:12.660 Yes, correct.

00:47:13.420 Right.

00:47:13.640 Haywood's no enemies to the right, or, uh, is generally a good guiding principle.

00:47:18.540 So that, that, that's where I go.

00:47:20.040 The, the only time I try, the only time I violate that specifically is, is, is when I see someone

00:47:26.420 else trying to gatekeep, uh, an ally.

00:47:29.320 So when I, when I look and I see someone saying, oh, we can't include that guy because he believes

00:47:35.720 something that, you know, is beyond the pale and we have to guard that from the right.

00:47:39.380 That is pretty much the only time I try to throw the elbow.

00:47:42.360 Not that I won't point to people being incorrect.

00:47:45.260 Why do you, why do you want to keep things open like that?

00:47:47.680 Uh, because, because I want to build the widest, uh, widest possible co-belligerent, uh, coalition,

00:47:53.480 uh, to, to at least defeat the current system as it is the, the, the, and I think importantly

00:48:00.100 to keep the lines of communication open, the longer, the, the more you allow people to gatekeep

00:48:05.580 people from the right, uh, the farther right out of the situation, the more you make it impossible

00:48:10.960 for certain conversations to occur.

00:48:13.740 Uh, and so I think it's critical for, you know, for that opportunity, but also because

00:48:19.280 you simply are weakening your ability to wield power when you, you know, spend your time allowing

00:48:25.420 people to cut a lot of important or critical aspects of the coalition out.

00:48:30.100 But at the same time, I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, say that I'm just this neutral

00:48:33.740 force.

00:48:34.220 Like I do have ideological or, you know, theoretical disagreements with people.

00:48:39.140 I do think there are right and wrong ways to do things strategically.

00:48:42.300 I do think that there are, for instance, to, you know, to pick a hobby horse, classical

00:48:46.940 liberals who still believe in this idea of institutional neutrality and centrism, and we

00:48:51.960 don't need to embrace a, a, a value system.

00:48:54.680 We can all have these different value systems.

00:48:56.720 Like, I do think that that's a flaw and that, and that lie is built into the woke system in

00:49:02.300 a lot of ways.

00:49:03.060 They, they, they, they portray themselves as both the arbiters of this, of this kind

00:49:09.700 of neutrality, acceptable neutrality, but at the same time are obviously pushing pretty

00:49:14.100 much everyone out of that window.

00:49:16.000 But by assuming that that is a true promise and that you can return to that true promise

00:49:20.480 and the woke are just, you know, guarding against it, but not realizing that that promise

00:49:24.180 itself is a problem.

00:49:25.720 I think that that creates issue, but you know, I, but I separate that correction of a ideological

00:49:32.680 or theoretical difference from a direct attempt to like, you know, um, expel someone from the

00:49:39.560 conversation.

00:49:40.240 Like, sorry, you just can't be in here because you don't, you haven't fully bought into this.

00:49:45.160 And so therefore there's simply no way that you are acceptable.

00:49:47.860 And I should actively encourage others to exclude you from any efforts that we might

00:49:52.720 make together.

00:49:53.920 Even if it comes to the cost of losing other people, because a guilt by association isn't

00:49:59.120 just a fallacy.

00:50:00.300 Like you are facilitating, let's just say some things that are odious to other potential

00:50:05.760 allies.

00:50:06.180 And by allowing that in your wheelhouse, you know, like the Nazi dinner party, like there's

00:50:12.900 a little bit of truth there, but not that everybody's a Nazi if there's one Nazi in the

00:50:16.780 room, but there is like, you know, you, you're not going to have buddies with the, why are

00:50:21.040 we still stuck here?

00:50:22.180 Buddies with Nazis.

00:50:23.060 And then, you know, like, like try to get some money from the Zionists too, you know,

00:50:26.780 like you're going to have to make decisions, right?

00:50:29.560 Oh, sure.

00:50:30.000 And, and, but the, the, you know, the, the problem here is of course, look, look at someone

00:50:33.440 like Daryl, right?

00:50:34.260 Like anyone who has actually looked at his work understands what Daryl is trying to do.

00:50:40.720 I don't even agree with Daryl on, uh, on certain things.

00:50:44.040 I think he's a bleeding heart leftist on certain, on certain issues, but Daryl overall is a

00:50:50.060 guy who I think is trying to be incredibly honest and point to human suffering and the

00:50:55.420 ability of humans to go to terrible places pretty much across the board.

00:50:59.120 And I think he, he's very willing to do that.

00:51:01.560 And the fact that a guy like him would be so easily painted as some kind of Nazi sympathizer

00:51:07.140 by just incredibly lazy people who pretend that they're fighting for free speech, who pretend

00:51:11.880 that they're fighting against woke cancellation, just really that that's what I worry about

00:51:17.680 by saying, Oh, well, we have to watch out.

00:51:19.960 Cause if we associate with these people, they'll drive out what you end up is seeing how easy

00:51:24.080 it is to just with some guys like, you know, maybe Churchill made some mistakes.

00:51:27.860 Maybe actually there's a, there's, there's a complex situation.

00:51:30.860 And while I thoroughly, you know, decry the actions of the Nazis, perhaps they're not just

00:51:36.460 like these soulless creatures.

00:51:37.860 Perhaps they had human motivations and there's a history and relations behind this simply by

00:51:43.080 bringing that up, you still see the knee jerk reaction built in, even the people who pretend

00:51:48.060 like they're fighting against that very knee jerk reaction.

00:51:51.660 And that's the, that's the kind of thing that I'm attempting to sort out.

00:51:54.800 But we got to get rid of that gag reflex to some extent.

00:51:57.340 Yeah.

00:51:57.780 It's interesting.

00:51:58.340 That's why I was so, uh, I was honored to have kissing on and I'm glad that he, he allowed

00:52:02.940 me to interview him because we drill, drill down into it.

00:52:05.780 And unfortunately I watched the wrong Daryl Cooper interview.

00:52:08.800 So I didn't know how to exactly counter his claims, kissing's claims about Daryl Cooper.

00:52:13.400 But I do see when you dive into, when I first started venturing into that dissident, right,

00:52:19.840 you know, you're like, Oh, this is really interesting.

00:52:21.340 That's really, Oh, monarchist.

00:52:22.880 What attack your time.

00:52:23.700 And then all of a sudden you see like, like Thomas seven, seven, you're like, okay, this

00:52:27.100 guy is like, he's like, he wants to be, at least he's broadcasting.

00:52:30.440 I'm a Nazi.

00:52:30.980 You're like, what do you do that?

00:52:32.060 And then even in your comments and stuff, there's a lot of people who have really big

00:52:35.460 problems with this race of people, um, a certain race of people, every comment just

00:52:41.600 over and over and over about that.

00:52:42.880 And I just don't know how to, how to navigate that without kind of being touched by it in a

00:52:49.720 way, like being touched against my principles of like, like kind of a Christian understanding

00:52:54.960 that there is, I don't know, how do you, I'm still a baby in this area.

00:52:58.560 Like, how do you square human self-interest, group self-interest, tribalism, um, with resentment

00:53:05.120 and people feeling like a lot of their opportunities are being taken away or they're being controlled,

00:53:10.520 uh, in what they can say and what they can't say and what their children learn by people

00:53:15.660 who constantly have similar last names.

00:53:18.220 Like, I understand the pattern recognition is just going to be happening, but I'm wary

00:53:23.120 of like living on that level of the pattern recognition and escaping those different tiers

00:53:29.520 of pattern recognition is really important to me.

00:53:33.220 Yeah, I, I guess the, I guess the question is, you know, and this is, this is always the

00:53:41.460 problem is like how much gatekeeping can liberalism do and still hold to its idea and pretend like

00:53:46.960 it is what it is, right?

00:53:47.900 Like there, there's, because the answer that it seems to me that this liberal neutral neutrality

00:53:55.860 requires an awful lot of cancellation and destruction and, and, and, uh, abandonment.

00:54:02.820 You're okay with that because you think that that's built into any human system.

00:54:06.220 I, I think that that's going to happen, right?

00:54:08.760 Like, I, I think that that's, that the unavoidable, even to the people who pretend that it is avoidable,

00:54:13.720 they actually end up doing it and doing it rather vigorously.

00:54:16.960 Um, and so, you know, you're, the question, this is, you asked the question earlier, and

00:54:21.400 this is always the liberal question, who decides, right?

00:54:24.540 Yes.

00:54:25.080 Who decides this is always, and the, the attempt by liberalism is always to construct something

00:54:30.680 outside of the system to decide, right?

00:54:32.960 It used to be God, but we don't do God anymore.

00:54:35.360 So it's gotta be something else.

00:54:36.660 And so it's a constitution or it's an assimilation of, uh, academics.

00:54:41.540 It's institutions that have been credibly verified.

00:54:44.520 It's peer review.

00:54:45.520 There's something that is beyond reproach outside of the system that will decide this for us.

00:54:51.700 And all that is, is a shell game for sovereignty, right?

00:54:55.820 It's saying, well, there's no sovereign person.

00:54:59.300 There's no definitive identity.

00:55:01.700 There's no, but no, we just have this consensus that's been arrived at by this outside force.

00:55:07.460 That's uncritiquable, you know, and, and, and then pretend like that's an actual solution.

00:55:12.180 But the truth is that just someone always decides that there is always a sovereign, that it will

00:55:17.440 always reside there.

00:55:18.860 The power will always rest in the hands of a person or a group of people.

00:55:23.240 And that's really uncomfortable for, especially because we recognize a, you know, we, we've

00:55:29.160 been bred to understand that that's, that's a bad outcome, but be also because there is

00:55:33.660 a lot of truth that ultimately having our fate in the hands of someone else is a scary thing.

00:55:38.480 You know, you, you talked about leadership, but also, you know, being able to follow.

00:55:43.080 Well, nobody wants to follow.

00:55:44.880 Everyone just wants to believe that they are actually in charge and they have the liberty

00:55:49.740 and the freedom.

00:55:50.440 Uh, but that's just not true and as uncomfortable as it is, an exception arises, right?

00:55:55.940 Right.

00:55:56.500 Precisely.

00:55:56.900 Yeah.

00:55:57.180 And, and so, you know, and, and the, the problem is the exceptions keep arising and that becomes

00:56:01.980 very, very difficult for people to navigate.

00:56:03.840 You know, I think that's why someone like Brett is in the position he's in.

00:56:06.660 There's a crisis of institutions because too many of these exceptions have arisen for him

00:56:11.540 to pretend.

00:56:12.000 I saw a video yesterday where he was talking about like, he's skeptical of the entire, entire

00:56:16.560 childhood vaccine schedule, but yeah, but, but, you know, but, but, you know, you recognize

00:56:24.680 that once you pull that thread, right?

00:56:27.220 Like once you've killed God and you're wearing the blood on your hands, then you really are

00:56:33.740 in this moment where, who do you trust and who decides and what do you make?

00:56:37.060 And now liberals have just killed their own God.

00:56:39.060 They've just, they're just looking at the blood on their hands of their institutional

00:56:42.780 God and wondering what comes next.

00:56:45.120 Yeah.

00:56:45.660 What comes next?

00:56:47.980 I think it's, I think it's the, you know, as we've talked about before, I think that

00:56:52.580 ultimately it's the scaling down of these, of these communities.

00:56:56.960 I don't think we can operate at that scale, but.

00:56:59.160 Yeah.

00:56:59.680 I don't know.

00:57:00.280 I think this is scary, but it's promising.

00:57:03.700 I think that an AI articulation of these various different societies, like the scaling back,

00:57:11.200 but still having a Costco, I guess that's what ultimately my, my post-liberalism is.

00:57:15.320 I still want the Costco.

00:57:17.820 You know, I just, I don't know what my shared moral vision is, but my shared vision involves

00:57:22.920 a Costco hot dog.

00:57:24.140 Yeah.

00:57:24.480 No, I'm serious.

00:57:25.380 Like you pay your little fee, you get your $2 hot dog, you know, you get your bulk, you

00:57:30.520 know, weight powders and stuff like that.

00:57:33.700 And we get along within that system.

00:57:35.700 We get along, I'm, you know, I spend so much time looking at the horrors of the world and

00:57:39.640 all this contention and polarity politically, but then I sit in traffic.

00:57:43.440 I'm like, this is amazing.

00:57:44.960 This is really amazing.

00:57:46.520 I mean, I'm stuck in traffic, but I get to listen to my podcast.

00:57:49.420 This is amazing that we're able to do that.

00:57:51.280 So I think with the grace of God, we've been led here.

00:57:54.220 And I think by the grace of God, we can figure this out.

00:57:56.960 There's something that is sustaining us that allowed us to get to this level.

00:58:04.020 And I think that we weren't led here just to fall away from it.

00:58:07.260 I don't know what that future holds, but I do think that there's an amazing power of grace

00:58:12.800 and promise in each one of us, that good discussion, that using the internet wisely and properly,

00:58:21.600 and then opening up to contentious discussions about interpreting history, questioning narratives

00:58:27.360 and stuff like that, shaking those little ossified stories, and even getting pushback for kicking

00:58:35.620 somebody's sacred cow and then assessing whether we can do without that particular sacred cow

00:58:41.040 or that some cow is going to be there, you know, that that's possible.

00:58:47.720 Yeah, I guess I'm just, yeah, I guess you could call it more cynical, but I don't really see

00:58:52.280 it as cynical.

00:58:52.860 I think it's just the way things work.

00:58:54.760 Like, yeah, that's why I want you guys on my side, you know, I want to be on your side

00:58:59.820 too, you know, but like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of good in the anti-woke grift

00:59:03.600 and all those people.

00:59:05.680 They all got a bunch of big egos, which is fun, you know, but that kind of trips it up

00:59:09.980 too.

00:59:10.680 Yeah.

00:59:10.840 I mean, there's certainly this, you know, and I try to do my best, but you know, we're

00:59:14.760 all human, you know, there is obviously this desire to be seen and to, you know, to build

00:59:23.220 this persona and have this idea that you're unassailable or that you, you know, and there's

00:59:27.860 this desire to churn content and drama and back and forth and all these things.

00:59:32.880 And so that, that's all an aspect of it too.

00:59:35.640 And this is also a huge issue.

00:59:37.760 We have this because so, and it's a weird thing now because I'm interacting with more

00:59:42.280 formal academics than, you know, I would have previously, but there's this weird moment

00:59:48.320 where, when I step into these formal academic settings, they're, they're so wildly and radically

00:59:54.860 removed from any practical application or understanding of like what's happening.

00:59:58.860 So, and, and there's so few right-wing ones that are allowed even in academic settings

01:00:03.720 at this point that most, especially on the right of what used to happen in say, you know,

01:00:08.280 a college or university or, you know, it's a think tank somewhere is happening online.

01:00:12.820 You know, this is probably stuff that maybe shouldn't happen there, but it is.

01:00:16.900 And so there's this, this strange moment where, yeah.

01:00:19.700 And, and God, forgive me.

01:00:21.000 I hate this word, but I don't have a better one at the moment.

01:00:23.360 Thought leaders on, on the side in our, are also content producers.

01:00:29.180 And there, that creates this issue because, you know, for all the problems of the university,

01:00:35.640 it did give a certain amount of ability for people to cultivate thought and, you know,

01:00:40.320 run it against each other and perfect these things in an environment where they didn't

01:00:44.640 have to like run out in front of a million people and, and regurgitate it every week.

01:00:48.880 Yeah.

01:00:49.320 Um, and that just doesn't exist now.

01:00:51.300 So when you have these fights, it's a, it's much more philosophy done in the, in the forum

01:00:56.220 old school, right?

01:00:57.160 Like you, you better be able to argue with Plato.

01:00:59.340 Cause if not, he's going to, he's going to make you look like a fool in public and they're

01:01:03.140 going to laugh you out.

01:01:03.960 Yeah.

01:01:04.400 Yeah.

01:01:04.820 Well, I think that that's helping us to, uh, get, um, broader understanding of these

01:01:10.540 so-called thought leaders and, and just to see somebody, that's another aspect of the

01:01:15.720 internet as a human interface.

01:01:17.800 When you add time to it, like I've been doing this for seven years, you've been doing this

01:01:21.920 for a while too, you know, somebody could probably try to judge you by one tweet, but

01:01:27.320 like seeing your history and then also seeing your voice, seeing you pop up in different kind

01:01:31.740 of media, you kind of become a fleshed out human being.

01:01:35.960 And so you're going to have weak moments and strong moments, and you're going to go through

01:01:39.740 different levels of evolution.

01:01:41.520 And I really enjoy that too.

01:01:43.600 I really enjoy, especially the people, um, whether they like it or not, they go through

01:01:48.240 different stages of evolution.

01:01:49.680 Jordan Peterson's had very drastic, um, kind of stages in his presence.

01:01:54.500 And it's really fascinating.

01:01:55.580 And I was seeing him evolve to the next level and kind of integrate himself more.

01:01:59.880 James Lindsay used to be an atheist, but more and more he's, he's grappling with these truths

01:02:04.200 and it's just amazing to watch him, like just basically having to say, you know, Christ was

01:02:08.780 right.

01:02:09.200 Christ was right.

01:02:09.760 I can't believe in God, but Christ is right.

01:02:11.300 It's just fascinating.

01:02:12.560 And Brett goes through his own evolutions too.

01:02:14.600 Hopefully I go through my own evolution.

01:02:16.120 So when we talk about, like, I kind of got into, uh, I was trying to stand up against

01:02:23.340 this idea of the woke right, because it was just going to be used to cast a bunch of people

01:02:28.860 out of discourse and to cut off all of that creative energy that's being released.

01:02:34.700 But, but I also recognize that the right need this desinant right place.

01:02:39.820 It needs to be attacked early and often because it gets, it starts huffing its own farts, just

01:02:45.460 like all these other places do.

01:02:46.780 And it gets into these really stupid memes, you know, you'll lose, there's this woman

01:02:50.760 question that like is constantly, what are they going to do with the women?

01:02:54.120 What are you guys going to do with the women?

01:02:55.720 You have these starlets rise up like Alex, Alex Kishuta, you know, and then she's like,

01:03:00.720 you know, has to deal with all this kind of misogyny.

01:03:03.060 So there needs to be a little bit more propriety, you know, and you can call it woke, you know,

01:03:07.500 like, like treat the women nicely kind of thing, but it gets ossified.

01:03:12.000 And so it needs like these attacks, you know, Daryl Cooper going on top.

01:03:15.460 Tucker and Tucker probably, uh, one of Kissin's, uh, objections with that interview was just

01:03:22.040 how Tucker didn't provide any pushback and made Cooper out to be something that he wasn't.

01:03:27.500 And Cooper said himself, I'm not a historian.

01:03:29.560 I'm a storyteller.

01:03:30.860 He, he's, he's an amateur historian.

01:03:32.660 And Tucker said he is an actual historian.

01:03:34.580 And so Kissin has issue with that framing.

01:03:37.160 Um, but, but Daryl Cooper jumping out of this weird thing where he's using, using this fascist

01:03:44.920 coded language.

01:03:45.580 He did a tweet where he said, uh, you know, Hitler taking over Paris is vastly preferable

01:03:50.340 to this, these trannies taking over Paris.

01:03:53.520 Right.

01:03:54.520 And is he saying that fascism is better than a wokeness or is he saying that the slow decay

01:04:01.100 of our civilization from the inside out is less preferable than, than a strong man?

01:04:05.900 Like there's all these different layers of analysis, but because, and he knows that Hitler's

01:04:09.740 the trigger, but in your, in this little domain where you guys are over here, like you're sharing

01:04:14.740 good morning, Hitler jokes and stuff like that.

01:04:16.580 There's like, there's a code there, there's tongue in cheek there, but once that gets thrown

01:04:20.640 up onto, you know, Tucker Carlson and then into the mainstream, it can't survive that level

01:04:25.720 of analysis or that level of joking can't survive.

01:04:28.180 It casts a lot of your comrades, sorry for the word.

01:04:33.780 I don't know.

01:04:34.120 What's the, what's the, what's the fascist word for a car?

01:04:36.760 I don't know is there, but it makes you guys all look fascist coded or it makes you guys

01:04:42.940 look anti-liberal, illiberal and woke, right?

01:04:47.600 You guys want to defeat your enemies and maybe you do, maybe you don't, but it kind of that

01:04:53.960 discourse, like these memes kind of don't, they jump out and then they, they degrade.

01:05:02.680 And so the, the right, your side has to reevaluate if it wants to scale, it has to reevaluate some

01:05:08.840 of its behaviors.

01:05:09.960 It has to reevaluate some of its, its memes.

01:05:13.120 If it wants to go there, if not, then some people will look at it and take the best parts

01:05:17.980 of what you guys are doing and take and just leave the rest behind.

01:05:21.940 And then the good ideas will get, uh, will pop up and then start to shape discourse over

01:05:26.260 here.

01:05:27.180 So it's any given individual's, um, choice, whether if they want to go kind of centrist and

01:05:32.660 mainstream, like Nietzsche coming out of the cave, you know, you come out of your dank, uh,

01:05:37.700 dungeon of dissonant right discourse and you bring something to the forum, right?

01:05:41.740 Or the forum comes to you, rattles it up and then it stirs things up and it real, real enlivens

01:05:47.720 things.

01:05:48.720 So I liked the fighting.

01:05:50.880 I think it's good.

01:05:51.880 I like the people going into the fray and I, I want the, uh, the dissonant right is one

01:05:56.480 of its awesome aspects is that it was bred in this contentious where it was bred based

01:06:02.680 on argument and on like anything goes.

01:06:04.880 It's, it's a lot of knife fighters because that's all they had there.

01:06:07.820 There was no preexisting reputation.

01:06:10.080 There was no.

01:06:10.700 Yeah.

01:06:11.180 Yeah.

01:06:11.440 So there's that aspect to it.

01:06:13.080 And yeah, I, this, to be clear, I'm not even against necessarily the internecine warfare.

01:06:18.940 Um, you know, necessarily people are always like, well, why don't you in the sky just

01:06:22.760 get along?

01:06:23.240 Why don't you do that?

01:06:23.740 It's like, well, cause we both recognize that our worldviews are incompatible.

01:06:26.980 And while we have a shared enemy, we recognize that ultimately only one person or one, one of these

01:06:32.400 two things can, can exist and rise to the top.

01:06:35.300 And so, you know, I'm, I'm not, uh, I very rarely are like, well, whatever you do, you

01:06:40.920 know, don't, I just, uh, like I said, I, I, when I see people trying to completely excise

01:06:47.300 someone from the conversation, that's usually when I push back.

01:06:50.700 If you have, you know, something, if you have something to say and you say, well, I just

01:06:54.340 don't think this ideology can survive.

01:06:56.100 I just don't think this is workable.

01:06:57.580 I think that there's all kinds of problems with this.

01:06:59.280 And this is, you know, then obviously I think that's critical and you have to have

01:07:02.380 that discussion.

01:07:02.940 You have to, you have to make those decisions, but Benjamin, we've already gone over an hour

01:07:07.060 and we have some questions from the people.

01:07:08.560 So I don't want to lock you down forever, but, uh, before we go to those questions, uh,

01:07:13.420 where can people find your great work?

01:07:15.180 Uh, Benjamin, a voice on Twitter and YouTube, I guess I'm on bit shoot and rumble, but rumble

01:07:21.080 doesn't really do much for me.

01:07:22.780 I would like them to do a little bit more.

01:07:24.860 Yeah.

01:07:25.380 I know some people have great success, but yeah.

01:07:27.420 Yeah.

01:07:27.820 Uh, I want, I want my, I want my field bucks.

01:07:30.400 So if you know how to get me to the field bucks, I'm here for it.

01:07:33.480 No, I'm not part Jewish.

01:07:35.320 Um, uh, Curtis Yarvin, I'm talking to your super chat.

01:07:39.300 Curtis Yarvin said, I have resting Mormon face.

01:07:42.380 Yeah, that's fair.

01:07:43.520 I could see that.

01:07:44.200 Yeah.

01:07:44.340 It was pretty interesting.

01:07:45.620 Yeah.

01:07:45.720 Well, yeah.

01:07:46.280 Benjamin a voice across all, and then conversations is, uh, the podcast name.

01:07:50.660 Absolutely.

01:07:51.120 Yes.

01:07:51.300 People should check that out.

01:07:52.700 If they have it before, lots of great interviews with many people that have been on here as well

01:07:57.040 as many people have not, so they should definitely take a look there.

01:07:59.460 All right.

01:07:59.780 Let's go to the super chats here.

01:08:02.260 Tiny Rick says on being post-liberal and evolving our language, I propose that people

01:08:06.680 don't have rights, God given natural or otherwise people have desires.

01:08:11.140 Some should be honored, uh, honored others shunned thoughts.

01:08:16.120 Yeah.

01:08:16.760 The rights thing is so slippery.

01:08:18.360 I think it's so easily abused and it morphs.

01:08:22.580 I think it's a concept that just morphs.

01:08:24.780 I don't think people really, it's not a natural concept, even though they call it natural rights.

01:08:29.140 Like we do have needs, desires, parameters of behavior and parameters of freedom that

01:08:34.140 if we succeed in standing and walking, we can run kind of thing.

01:08:38.900 Right.

01:08:39.220 And we need coaching to do all those different things.

01:08:42.480 I think natural right is something that has existed in human understanding throughout history.

01:08:47.840 But again, it has almost always been in the context of communities and how those communities

01:08:53.040 can honor those rights.

01:08:54.300 I think when you try to extract, uh, extract those and make them universal, uh, then they

01:08:59.460 break down rather quickly.

01:09:00.500 And what you find is groups agitating for blocks of rights for their group rather than understanding

01:09:06.680 rights as something that is a interaction within that group.

01:09:10.440 Yeah.

01:09:11.020 It's a progressivism, uh, post civil rights progressivism took, went from civil rights to

01:09:16.280 civil, civil, uh, demand.

01:09:17.840 And that's, that explains so much of the behavior.

01:09:22.040 Let's see here.

01:09:23.000 We've got a perspicacious.

01:09:24.360 Heretic says, I'm not sure if we can really solve woke without finding a way to dial down

01:09:29.180 individualism, which is the wellspring of modern liberalism.

01:09:33.920 Uh, yeah, I see your, your face there.

01:09:35.600 There is this dichotomy and I think there's, uh, I think there's some truth to this, but

01:09:39.220 it takes a little bit of, it sounds weird.

01:09:42.040 And if you just say this straight away, there's this moment where most people look at wokeness

01:09:46.900 and they're like, oh, it's all identity.

01:09:48.120 It's all collectivism, right?

01:09:49.340 Like it's a bunch of people spouting, you know, uh, uh, neo-Marxist bromides and they,

01:09:53.660 you know, they all have this idea of blackness or whiteness or, you know, the trans or whatever

01:09:58.440 identities that we need to understand.

01:10:00.620 But at the core of this, there is, I think the point that liberalism dismantled most of

01:10:06.880 the lower order, organic identities through the understanding of individual, of individualism.

01:10:15.280 And so in many ways, woke is an attempt to reconstitute those at a macro level, uh, in

01:10:20.280 blocks that are too artificial and wide for them to be in any way healthy.

01:10:24.420 So, uh, there, there is a, I think there is a pathway from liberalism to wokeness, but

01:10:29.800 something that maybe defenders of liberalism might not immediately recognize because they're

01:10:34.580 like, I'm for individualism.

01:10:36.060 They're talking about collectivism.

01:10:37.200 Obviously we have to be radically different.

01:10:39.460 Yeah.

01:10:39.820 And we have to form a collective of individuals in order to fight back.

01:10:43.500 Right.

01:10:43.800 Exactly.

01:10:44.180 Precisely.

01:10:44.880 Good luck with it.

01:10:45.580 And there, there you have your anti-woke post-coalition.

01:10:48.340 That's yes.

01:10:48.920 It's in many ways, the anti-woke coalition suffers the same problem that like the libertarian

01:10:54.160 party does like, like, like you're basically like, we, you know, yeah, we're the official

01:10:59.820 cat herding, you know, uh, collective that's, that's the plan.

01:11:03.580 Yeah.

01:11:03.820 Yeah.

01:11:04.580 Uh, let's see here.

01:11:05.520 K and says, if all, uh, if, if, if, if all is a political formula is elite theory, a political

01:11:11.540 formula, who does it serve podcasters making money off of unlocking the secrets of power?

01:11:16.780 No, there, to be fair, there is a real aspect of a mystery cult of power that you could

01:11:21.120 have built around something like this, right?

01:11:23.320 Mystery cults for those who are unfamiliar are like replacement religions where the, the,

01:11:28.460 the truths are not metaphysical, but they are layered behind all of this intellectual

01:11:33.760 or, or other philosophical rigor.

01:11:35.600 And if you could just peel back the next mystery, the next mystery, the next mystery, finally,

01:11:40.100 you'll unlock the system.

01:11:41.740 Um, the, the one thing I will say, and this is, this is a disagreement between myself and

01:11:46.380 my friend, academic agent, he offers, um, elite theory is a value neutral, uh, approach.

01:11:53.900 Um, and this is not true in the same way that Machiavelli was not offering a value neutral

01:12:00.340 approach to politics, which is what he, you know, Machiavelli was saying, well, I, I am

01:12:04.940 just telling you the facts.

01:12:05.860 I'm just telling you the way it is.

01:12:07.080 But behind Machiavelli's stripping down of kind of that, that, uh, uh, antiquity and,

01:12:13.260 and Christian understanding, uh, that medieval rather Christian understanding, he was a fan

01:12:17.500 of antiquity, but, but, but behind that was him espousing ultimately some framework by

01:12:23.260 which we should understand the world.

01:12:25.400 And so I want to be careful, you know, I've, I've said this many times, elite theory can

01:12:29.140 be a tool, but if you treat it as an end to itself, if you treat it as well, this is just

01:12:34.000 the objective truth rather than understanding that actually society rests on, uh, decisive assertions

01:12:41.640 of moral visions, um, then you'll be telling yourself the same lie that liberals told themselves,

01:12:46.700 which is what we have is this objective system and that does it all by itself.

01:12:51.060 And we have the truth because we're part of this objective system when actually you've

01:12:54.880 just constructed another ideology in which to, to kind of park your values.

01:12:59.360 Uh, and so, so I think that that's really the critical distinction, but I don't know.

01:13:03.680 Well said.

01:13:04.820 You're getting good at this podcasting.

01:13:06.880 I'm trying my best, man.

01:13:07.880 Absolutely.

01:13:08.260 You're doing really good.

01:13:09.260 It's the, my, my extensive, uh, experience as a public teacher in a public high school

01:13:13.500 teacher, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, tiny Rick says on the election, I see the underlying theme

01:13:20.500 as, uh, woke, uh, versus anything but that, uh, what makes Trump so frustrating is how bad

01:13:27.720 he is at speaking to that divide.

01:13:29.500 Uh, they are eating the cats though.

01:13:32.260 So, you know, I, again, I, I think almost that Trump's power is really his ability to

01:13:36.660 just cut through those divisions and say, yeah, I'm the leader.

01:13:40.500 We are driving the bus.

01:13:41.920 You can be on my team or not.

01:13:43.440 He, he has the ability to herd cats because basically he, he wields real world power.

01:13:49.640 And so, you know, the, the problem with so much of this coalition is it's abstracted.

01:13:53.400 It's not tied to anything real.

01:13:55.080 It's not organic.

01:13:56.340 Trump has the ability to forge it into something real by having actual real world sway and power.

01:14:00.660 So he says, you got to come to the table because I'm, I'm the only deal in town, which again

01:14:04.720 is, is usually what that leadership seat, cesarean role really, uh, is.

01:14:09.840 Yeah.

01:14:10.860 Yeah.

01:14:12.060 Feel free to jump in.

01:14:13.080 I don't want to talk.

01:14:13.520 Oh, I was just thinking about the, uh, split between, uh, this probably a year ago, Chris

01:14:18.440 Rufo and Curtis Yarvin.

01:14:20.980 Um, did they, they had a, they had a spat that they actually like, yeah, they had the knockdown

01:14:27.040 whole video about it.

01:14:28.600 It was so bad.

01:14:29.540 It was so terrible.

01:14:30.540 It was so terrible.

01:14:31.380 Yeah.

01:14:31.480 It was about a year ago.

01:14:32.660 Um, but Chris being the practical one and Curtis being the abstract one, I'm waiting for

01:14:39.340 Curtis to kind of like do something, get a little bit more saucy, but I think he really

01:14:44.900 enjoys kind of being the, the philosopher more than the King.

01:14:48.080 And so I appreciate his critique of Rufo, uh, but Rufo gets results.

01:14:53.200 So what are you going to do?

01:14:54.820 Well, and I think, you know, there's a, there's this weird moment, you know, the left does this

01:14:59.040 all the time.

01:14:59.680 You know, there's a Vanguard and there's a mainstream and the Vanguard is pushing the

01:15:03.100 mainstream constantly.

01:15:04.000 And no one is stupid enough to think that that hurts the left, but for some reason people

01:15:09.520 act as if that hurts the right, you know, everyone looks at the left and says, oh, well,

01:15:14.320 the fact that they have this robust intellectual class and that they're constantly pushing towards

01:15:19.060 a specific goal and that they're keeping their mainstream leaders in check by encouraging

01:15:23.140 them and feeding them, you know, uh, ideas that, you know, nobody thinks this is a liability

01:15:27.720 for the left, but they act as if like one guy, like we finally got one guy doing a little

01:15:33.080 bit of philosophy and saying, maybe we could do this differently.

01:15:35.600 All of a sudden, this is just the end of the right.

01:15:37.760 I don't know, but.

01:15:39.860 Interesting.

01:15:40.660 Is that a self-imposed limit on the right?

01:15:42.820 You think?

01:15:43.440 That's a good question.

01:15:44.360 I, I, I think it is, but only in relation to the fact that basically most right wing thought

01:15:49.760 was outlawed.

01:15:50.860 There's a reason that guys like Paul Gottfried and Sam Francis and even Pat Buchanan spent a

01:15:56.380 lot of time in the wilderness.

01:15:57.720 Um, and so, um, everyone on the right recognizes that there's an advantage of canceling to their

01:16:03.020 right.

01:16:03.440 Uh, people on the left recognize that canceling to the left is actually generally a bad move.

01:16:08.160 It's something that will lose them cachet.

01:16:10.160 Uh, and that's because the right is serving, uh, their left as where the left is serving

01:16:14.280 the left itself.

01:16:16.740 Hmm.

01:16:17.760 Yay.

01:16:18.780 That is my understanding.

01:16:20.000 You got to serve somebody.

01:16:21.360 It's, it's, even if you are right.

01:16:23.260 Yeah.

01:16:23.420 Yeah.

01:16:24.060 Uh, Thuggo said, uh, does Christianity with its focus on sacrifice, nonviolence,

01:16:27.720 violence, uh, and altruism lead us to, uh, the, uh, lead us vulnerable to Marxism.

01:16:33.800 A lot of people say this.

01:16:35.280 Um, I understand that assertion, uh, you know, I always go back to the same thing.

01:16:39.620 Um, Oswald Spangler said that every civilization has this kind of mere atheism to its animating

01:16:48.640 spirit, uh, that at the end of these civilizations, those things always take hold and Christianity,

01:16:54.460 you know, Marxism is most certainly a Christian heresy.

01:16:57.480 Progressivism is at least for sure is a Christian heresy.

01:17:00.460 Its roots are there for sure.

01:17:01.940 But does that mean that Christianity leads to this?

01:17:04.680 Well, you could say that in some sense, but I think every founding animating, uh, metaphysical

01:17:10.600 ideology, like eventually leads to its, its opposite.

01:17:13.820 So yes, but only in the sense that this is Christianity's opposite.

01:17:17.120 If you had a different ideology, you would simply produce a different opposing, you know,

01:17:21.500 antithesis, I guess, since we're being Hegelian here.

01:17:24.280 Well, I think the one thing that saved me, uh, getting swept up in cult like thinking or

01:17:31.420 ideology is my relationship with God.

01:17:33.640 Cause I just know that on my founding level of my existence, I only report to one power.

01:17:41.920 Um, and I can see that everybody else ultimately reports to that one power.

01:17:46.320 Now I, there has to be some level of social organization, but ultimately I stand before

01:17:50.900 God, nobody else judges me, nobody else controls me, and I'm going to balk at anything like

01:17:55.060 that.

01:17:55.280 So I think my fierce individualism does come from, uh, Christianity because of that relationship.

01:18:03.640 Uh, Jacob Zendel here says, there appears to be a lot of petty infighting in the right.

01:18:08.040 I like James Lindsay, but don't follow the Twitter drama.

01:18:10.540 How irreconcilable is it?

01:18:14.100 Uh, I'll, I'll avoid this question only because I am so often the, uh, the, the target of said

01:18:18.920 Iyer.

01:18:19.420 So I don't have an objective answer to that question.

01:18:22.760 James goes through cycles.

01:18:25.020 Fair enough.

01:18:26.140 Uh, blood base says, uh, well said, Oren.

01:18:28.740 Thank you very much, sir.

01:18:29.540 Uh, George Heyduke says, when it comes to Netter, what happens when today's allies become

01:18:35.200 tomorrow's enemies, neo-pagans versus Christians, future conflicts being set in motion?

01:18:40.700 Yes, that is always the question, but for victorious coalitions, that is always a question

01:18:45.120 for after the victory.

01:18:46.600 Uh, so I, I agree that that is a huge problem.

01:18:49.240 Uh, but people who, who are staring at this monolith that they think their biggest problem

01:18:53.680 is the guy right next to them rather than the monolith in front of them.

01:18:57.360 Um, I think you're misunderstanding your problem.

01:19:00.100 Yeah.

01:19:01.340 Uh, let's see here.

01:19:03.100 Uh, Nick says, is Benjamin Jewish?

01:19:05.380 Uh, Benjamin has already replied here.

01:19:08.100 I'm not.

01:19:08.940 Uh, Kane says, want to honor your guests and say, uh, uh, you disagree with acquisitions

01:19:13.940 of his Jewishness.

01:19:15.500 Let's see here.

01:19:16.920 Thanks guys.

01:19:17.640 You're really breaking the stereotype wide open.

01:19:20.100 Um, George says, any mention of Red Scare adjacent racist articles in the NYC scene?

01:19:27.060 I'm going to be honest.

01:19:28.080 I have never listened to a single episode of Red Scare.

01:19:30.840 I know this whole thing exists, the, you know, dark, Yarvin dark elves.

01:19:34.960 And, and I know the scene exists.

01:19:37.060 I guess I've met certain people, but I am completely, you know, uh, detached from that.

01:19:42.600 So I just don't know anything about it.

01:19:45.260 I don't know them either.

01:19:47.100 Yeah.

01:19:47.480 They talk like girls who are just over the hangover from last night's club date.

01:19:52.060 And they're like in this like sweet spot of like coherency, but they're about to get

01:19:56.440 crunk and they were just crunk.

01:19:58.540 Generally.

01:19:58.940 The only thing I know about them is that people complain about them or thirst after them.

01:20:02.740 I don't, I don't have, I don't actually know anything about their, their ideology or their

01:20:07.400 positions.

01:20:07.980 Where's your thirsty simps?

01:20:09.680 I think I've seen them defend Steve Saylor once.

01:20:12.160 So they have my, they have my goodwill in that area.

01:20:14.920 Uh, life of Brian says, no one seems to have raised the central subject.

01:20:19.000 What is the current role of the IDW and the anti left fight?

01:20:22.740 Uh, what has the, our, uh, RFK move done?

01:20:27.040 Uh, I mean, I don't know about you, Benjamin, I feel like what we were basically talking about

01:20:30.460 was that the IDW has dissolved and that it's really returned to becoming individual thinkers

01:20:36.180 who have kind of gone into different areas rather than being a cohesive movement.

01:20:39.440 Yeah.

01:20:40.080 Yeah.

01:20:40.260 I, I do appreciate the critique of containment, uh, where they, they, they, they run away.

01:20:46.460 Like there's this kind of like this nematic valence or truth to the meme that they kind

01:20:53.780 of, that they were politically homeless.

01:20:55.420 They found an audience on the right and then they want to rearrange the furniture of the

01:21:00.300 right.

01:21:00.620 There is some sort of feeling for sure.

01:21:03.080 Right.

01:21:03.640 So there is that because I think that they're at heart, they are liberals and they don't want

01:21:08.620 to be associated too much with the deplorables.

01:21:11.460 So I think that there is a snooty snuffiness and they're really only trucking with you all

01:21:17.540 because they, they were told that they weren't cool enough to be on the insider club.

01:21:21.980 So they kind of self selected.

01:21:23.420 So there is that ego level and stuff.

01:21:25.760 And I'm hoping to shake that.

01:21:27.120 I hope that shakes up and, uh, over time, but they, they, they're basically elites that

01:21:32.460 they're looking for, they want to be on a pedestal and they had to step off of it because

01:21:36.700 they couldn't truck with certain things that the pedestal is doing, but they're, they're

01:21:39.740 searching for the pedestal.

01:21:41.040 I'm not naming any one of them.

01:21:42.340 Just kind of like this general behavior that I see.

01:21:45.000 Yesterday's revolutionaries don't really want to be on the right, but they know they

01:21:48.640 should be in charge of something.

01:21:49.700 And so if the right's the only thing they can be in charge of them, I guess they're going

01:21:52.800 to be experts.

01:21:53.760 Right.

01:21:54.800 Uh, cyber chud says, uh, what have you got up there?

01:21:57.440 Orin?

01:21:57.680 I can see walk among us, but I don't recognize the other two.

01:22:00.500 Uh, the albums, we have, uh, the misfits walk among us, which is right here.

01:22:04.640 Uh, then I have, uh, uh, Avenged Sevenfold, uh, Nightmare, and then we have, uh, Children

01:22:11.400 of Bodom, Hexed.

01:22:12.580 Uh, so that is the spread of, of metal, uh, albums.

01:22:15.720 We got that bear.

01:22:16.620 Try, try it.

01:22:17.240 Yeah.

01:22:17.380 I've got a couple of people who enjoy the rotation of albums.

01:22:20.060 So we've always got a new one coming up every few weeks.

01:22:22.860 So I just have Jordan Peterson and his most kissable photo.

01:22:25.860 I don't think we can focus on it.

01:22:28.320 He's playing with a little tool and he's wearing a sweater.

01:22:32.280 The Mr. Rogers approach there.

01:22:34.160 Yeah.

01:22:34.640 Yeah.

01:22:35.540 All right, guys, we're going to go ahead and wind this up, but it has been great talking

01:22:39.800 to you, Benjamin.

01:22:40.980 Uh, thank you so much, Aaron.

01:22:42.260 You're doing fabulous work.

01:22:43.620 I really enjoy your work.

01:22:45.000 I enjoy your work very much as well.

01:22:46.820 So now that we've both, uh, you know, talked about how great we are and how much we appreciate

01:22:51.640 each other, I would remind everyone to check out your channel.

01:22:54.280 And of course, if it's your first time on my channel, subscribe, click the bell notifications,

01:22:58.680 all that jazz.

01:22:59.560 If you want to get the broadcast as podcasts, make sure you subscribe to the Omer McIntyre show

01:23:04.100 on your favorite podcast platform.

01:23:05.940 Maybe you are the elite you've been theorizing about.

01:23:09.040 You know, there, I, I certainly do not, you know, there's this weird thing, you know, people

01:23:12.920 are like, oh, there's a thought leader.

01:23:14.940 There's a leader of some kind of there.

01:23:16.020 It's like, I don't know, man.

01:23:17.100 I was recording things in a YouTube channel.

01:23:18.800 It doesn't feel like leadership material.

01:23:20.500 It's just a strange disconnect.

01:23:22.140 I noticed some level people, it's just, I don't know.

01:23:24.780 It's very, very odd, but if no one's a leader, then I guess we end up in the situation we're

01:23:29.120 in now.

01:23:29.520 So that's not good either.

01:23:30.440 It's not good for everyone.

01:23:31.140 Trump it up, dude.

01:23:32.000 Shirk the responsibility.

01:23:33.180 I don't, I don't know.

01:23:33.800 I don't think I have the, I don't think I have the, uh, the delivery in the crowd.

01:23:37.440 Yeah.

01:23:37.600 Or at least I need to get a lot better at dodging bullets.

01:23:39.600 One of the other.

01:23:40.180 You get the tweets though.

01:23:41.060 You get the tweets.

01:23:41.860 I do have the tweets.

01:23:42.960 We've got that going.

01:23:43.560 All right, guys, thank you everybody for watching.

01:23:45.660 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - September 18, 2024

The State of the Anti-Woke Coalition ｜ Guest： Benjamin Boyce ｜ 9⧸18⧸24

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