The Auron MacIntyre Show - The Therapeutic State ｜ Guest： Paul Gottfried ｜ 1⧸30⧸23

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00:01:30.000 Hey, everybody.

00:01:34.240 How's it going?

00:01:35.040 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:01:36.800 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:01:41.340 Someone who I've had requested a number of times and I'm glad to say is finally here.

00:01:46.840 Dr. Paul Gottfried, thanks for joining me, sir.

00:01:49.160 Thank you for inviting me.

00:01:51.320 Absolutely.

00:01:51.720 For anyone who isn't familiar with Dr. Gottfried's work, he is, of course, the editor at Chronicles

00:01:56.640 Magazine.

00:01:57.440 He is an author of many very insightful books.

00:02:00.760 You should definitely check those out.

00:02:02.440 And I'm sure he'll tell us some more as we get into this.

00:02:05.540 But we're going to be talking today primarily about, we'll talk about a few things, but we're

00:02:10.080 going to be focusing primarily on the concept of a therapeutic state, which I think is really

00:02:14.800 important.

00:02:15.220 I think it's going to help people understand a lot about what is happening in the United

00:02:19.960 States and the wider Western world today.

00:02:22.580 So, Mr. Gottfried, could you go ahead and explain what the idea of the therapeutic state

00:02:27.260 is?

00:02:28.340 Yeah.

00:02:29.560 By the therapeutic state, I mean the typical political regime in which Western countries

00:02:40.460 are now living and which seems to be the end product or the end point of a very long

00:02:48.280 development, one that has to be traced back at least as far, I think, as the creation of

00:02:53.920 the modern welfare state, which, you know, I've argued in my book, After Liberalism, has

00:03:00.120 to be seen as beginning in the early 20th century with progressivism.

00:03:05.040 It sort of continues in America through the New Deal.

00:03:09.160 In Europe, it has its counterparts.

00:03:11.520 I mean, in Sweden, you have a social democratic government elected in the 1920s.

00:03:15.820 Then you have an England, a labor government after the war, various socialist coalitions

00:03:24.000 in France after World War II.

00:03:27.320 And what comes out of all of this is a government which becomes involved with economic redistribution,

00:03:35.220 social engineering, and increasingly will colonize the family.

00:03:40.480 I think that this, to some extent, is secondary in earlier phases of the welfare state.

00:03:50.360 I don't think Franklin Roosevelt really cared very much about, you know, changing gender

00:03:57.240 relations.

00:03:58.000 Maybe his wife did, but I don't think this was an overriding concern for him.

00:04:01.900 In the United States, you know, LBJ talks about some of this stuff, but he's much more concerned

00:04:13.780 with economic redistribution and with fighting the war in Vietnam.

00:04:20.100 Nonetheless, I think by the 1960s, in the United States and in other Western democracies, the

00:04:26.220 state does become involved in what's called family policy, and family policy will be inextricably linked to

00:04:33.260 other things like fighting prejudice, discrimination, inequality in the family, patriarchy.

00:04:40.840 All of these things come under attack as what I call the therapeutic state develops.

00:04:47.120 And there's a very good book on the subject written by Christopher Lash, who actually wrote

00:04:54.360 more than one book, on the therapeutic state, showing its development.

00:05:00.380 He links it, I think, significantly to the Frankfurt School, or as I argue my books, the Frankfurt

00:05:08.040 School as it develops in the United States.

00:05:10.260 Because I think you see a full flowering of it here rather than in Germany, since most of its

00:05:16.500 leaders come to the United States, with their particular brand of radicalism, cultural radicalism

00:05:23.960 in the 1930s, they're driven out by the Nazis, they come here, they will partially reestablish 1.00

00:05:29.580 themselves at the University of Frankfurt in Germany in 1951 and thereafter, but most of them

00:05:36.360 remain in the United States, and while some of them are theoretical Marxists, what is the focus

00:05:44.760 of their attention is fighting fascism as it manifests itself as prejudice in the bourgeois family.

00:05:52.700 And this is, one might say, an invitation to social reconstruction, which is not lost on what we call

00:06:02.500 in America, I suppose, the deep state or its counterparts in Europe, and more and more of the welfare state's

00:06:11.360 activities become bound up with this, with family policy, reconstructing social relations, and what

00:06:20.200 becomes, I think, in many ways, the most important aspect of this therapeutic reconstruction of society

00:06:27.260 through the state is fighting prejudice, discrimination. And here I argue in my book on anti-fascism, that somehow the

00:06:38.460 model of Nazi Germany is always uppermost, or kept uppermost in the minds of citizens who have been turned into 0.61

00:06:48.660 subjects of the subjects of the therapeutic state. And they're told that unless they go along with this social

00:06:55.040 reconstruction, not only the Germans, but the Americans and everyone else can become Nazis. 0.60

00:07:01.860 And, you know, I show my book on anti-fascism, one typically finds the arguments over the last 20 to 30 years sort of going

00:07:09.400 this way, that if you do not want to accept the latest wrinkle of feminism or LGBT, you know, this can lead ultimately to 1.00

00:07:19.020 another Auschwitz. I mean, it's sort of, we'll just go in this ominous direction, unless we continue to receive guidance from 0.97

00:07:26.920 enlightened social engineers. Now, as I indicated before the show began, I'm not quite sure how you got out of this, because the

00:07:35.420 people who are pushing the therapeutic state are so powerful, they control media, education, all of the most important

00:07:44.120 institutions in Western countries. And every time you send your kid to school, you know, they're going to come back with a

00:07:52.740 gender reassignment or something else. And it's, it's, or, oh, they'll be taught to hate the white race, because they're, they're a 0.97

00:08:01.060 race that discriminates by their very nature. And I think what you see over the last, since the 1960s, 0.68

00:08:07.960 certainly, is a radicalization of this, of this therapeutic social engineering, it becomes more

00:08:15.860 radical, and it becomes more hostile to what is traditional Christian bourgeois society, whatever

00:08:23.520 existed, or Judeo-Christian society, whatever existed in this country before. What I grew up with in the

00:08:28.520 1950s is obviously all evil. What, one of the latest wrinkles about this, and I'm always, you know, 0.73

00:08:34.980 complaining to my wife, is I turn on TV, I don't see white people in advertisements anymore. I don't 0.99

00:08:40.660 see white people, you know, and the only time you see them is they're villains, you know, and they're, 0.84

00:08:46.480 they're committing heinous acts of racism or homophobia or something like that. Television

00:08:53.480 entertainment has simply become social reconstruction. Yeah, someone has to play the

00:08:59.080 villain in the, in the ADT home alarm commercials, right? That's the only time you see. Right, right.

00:09:03.980 But it just goes on and on. I mean, they never give you breathing space. This is something I've

00:09:10.080 noticed that in, you know, in the 60s, 70s, we sort of moved in this direction, this portentous

00:09:15.520 direction, but it was done sort of slowly. You can catch your breath. Since the election of Joe Biden

00:09:22.300 is president, it's, it's, you know, everything has, has moved exponentially toward the cultural left

00:09:30.160 and towards this therapeutic reconstruction. Well, to your very point, you know, the president

00:09:35.180 of the United States got on stage after calling his political opponents directly fascists. Right.

00:09:41.020 And gave, you know, gave that speech about, you know, the, the, the eternal struggle against the

00:09:45.840 enemy within, right? So I think that's exactly right. Now, one of the things I found very

00:09:50.760 interesting about your concept, which you're, you know, I first interacted with because of

00:09:55.160 Christopher Lash. So, so that's where I became aware of it, but, but I wanted to explore the

00:10:00.020 transition. So hopefully we can, we can kind of trace the steps for people that can understand

00:10:03.960 kind of how this emerged. So I think more and more people with kind of the resurgence of,

00:10:08.160 of James Burnham are understanding the idea of the managerial revolution. And I'm, I'm wondering,

00:10:14.220 given your description of the therapeutic stake with the managerial apparatus, was it always

00:10:20.120 inevitable that the managerial apparatus would need to seek out a program like this to kind of expand

00:10:26.560 its influence into the realm of places like the family where otherwise would be pushed back?

00:10:32.000 Yeah. I, I addressed this in my book on after liberalism, liberalism being bourgeois liberalism in the

00:10:37.180 19th century, uh, and the welfare, welfare states, democracy being post-liberal. This is the argument

00:10:43.500 I'm making. And I, I say that, that one could have a welfare state and a managerial state of the kind

00:10:49.700 that Burnham and Pedro Gonzalez and others and Sam Francis, one could have that kind of state.

00:10:55.540 Uh, but you do not, you do not necessarily have to have a therapeutic state or one as extreme as what

00:11:00.760 exists right now, but I would say it is a necessary precondition. You know, if you were living

00:11:06.960 with the state as it existed in 1850, you couldn't do any of this because you would not have the

00:11:12.680 apparatus, uh, the bureaucracy, the bureaucratic control that would be necessary to carry out this

00:11:19.560 therapeutic experiment. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that that's a very interesting point. It's a,

00:11:25.340 it may be not the necessary end goal, but it is a prerequisite for it to emerge. You know,

00:11:31.640 Bertrand de Juvenal talks about these collapsing spheres of social influence, right? He talks about

00:11:36.880 how for power to centralize, they have to get rid of the influence of things like the family and the

00:11:41.760 church and, and these different organizations. And so I was just wondering if you thought that

00:11:46.080 that was a natural part of the centralization of power, or if that this regime that has emerged now

00:11:52.500 is particular to, I guess, this ideology and not power centralization itself.

00:11:58.120 Right. Right. But I, I, I think one has to simply look at the sort of building blocks to,

00:12:02.280 you know, that have to be, um, uh, that, that have to be created or constructed before you get to this

00:12:09.360 stage. And, you know, you, you need a modern state. Uh, another thing is you need Christianity 0.99

00:12:14.640 in a very, in a very decadent form, right? Where you would talk about loving kindness, universalism,

00:12:20.480 but you're not too specific about doctrine, uh, or things in, you know, certainly the biblical

00:12:26.820 tradition that, you know, point in a different direction. Um, I don't see too many therapeutic

00:12:31.880 states in the Buddhist or Muslim world, right? So I, I, I, I think there is an affinity that it has to

00:12:38.860 what I, I, I say a sort of decaying heretical kind of Christianity. Um, you also need a large, 0.99

00:12:46.160 a large administrative state, a managerial state. Otherwise you're not going to be able to carry this

00:12:51.140 out. Um, what's also helpful from the point of view of the therapists, the therapeutic state is

00:12:57.320 our media that cooperate, which exist in every Western country. Now they're all the same. They

00:13:02.900 just speak different languages. They have the same points of view. Uh, so you have a media apparatus and

00:13:08.600 then you have public education, which pushes the same, the same doctrines. So, uh, with, without,

00:13:15.140 without these, these preexisting, um, uh, or, uh, pre-existing, uh, pre-existing institutions or

00:13:22.280 preconditions, you're not going to get to the therapeutic state. Um, what, what, what I find

00:13:27.560 fascinating is the, the way it has accelerated, you know, in the last 20 to 30 years. Um, even in the

00:13:34.760 1980s, I could not imagine, you know, gender reassignment being taught or the, uh, the war against the

00:13:40.760 white race, the war against the white race led by white leftists, which makes it even more 0.96

00:13:45.940 interesting. Right. Or, you know, these, uh, Black Lives Matter riots, Antifa riots, you've got white 0.92

00:13:52.280 people, affluent white people joining this. So, I mean, what you see is a cultural transformation

00:13:58.180 that, that has already occurred. And, um, I, I, it's like something that almost, in my case,

00:14:04.840 it was something that, that was able to sneak up on me because I was not even aware that these

00:14:08.680 changes were happening so quickly. Um, uh, and even moving, you know, from the 1980s, uh, to the

00:14:15.360 early 2000s, it's, it's, it's very, it's, it's incredible how quickly, uh, the therapeutic

00:14:20.720 state became radicalized and radicalized much of the younger generation in America.

00:14:26.620 It's very interesting that you pointed out that you need a Christianity that's completely 1.00

00:14:30.480 severed from the doctrine, like that, that, that has many of the, the principles of that might

00:14:36.260 create some kind of universal or compassionate understanding, but it, but it's completely

00:14:40.880 removed. Do you think that the, uh, the, the, the kind of the final, uh, removal of those

00:14:48.740 principles was part of the acceleration process? The, the fact that you had many of these barriers

00:14:54.300 that you, like you said, would have been unthinkable to, to pass in maybe the seventies even, or the

00:14:59.960 eighties suddenly became very past. Say you had, you know, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton

00:15:04.560 saying that they were for traditional marriage in 2008. Right. And, but, and now you have

00:15:09.580 Republicans voting for the redefinition, the permanent codification of the redefinition of

00:15:14.320 marriage. Yeah. I think one of the problems is I've argued, and this has made me very unpopular

00:15:18.680 in the conservative movement, as you know, is that, um, the, uh, the conservative movement

00:15:24.620 won't stand up for anything except maybe corporate tax breaks and making war somewhere, you know,

00:15:29.420 helping defense industries. Um, you cannot get them to stand up for moral principles of

00:15:34.580 any kind. The principles have existed for thousands of years that everyone assumed when I was, they,

00:15:39.300 they won't, they won't defend this. Um, and you know, as I like to point out, the first generation

00:15:44.300 of the Frankfurt school was con socially more conservative than the so-called conservative

00:15:48.940 movement in the United States. They considered homosexuality to be a sexual deviance. Herbert

00:15:55.220 Marcuse, Theodore Adorno, they all believe this. Uh, now we have to glorify it. Not only that,

00:16:00.980 but we have, you know, gender reassigned Republicans coming on Fox news, you know, to push the Republican

00:16:07.260 party. Uh, I mean, there is nowhere these people will not go looking for votes. You know, they don't

00:16:14.100 have any principles, uh, you know, they keep saying we have principles, we have values. I'm still looking

00:16:19.720 for them. Or, you know, as, as somebody once said that someone's, uh, said about some English

00:16:24.520 statesman that he has, uh, he has values. He changes them all the time, you know, changing them.

00:16:32.540 So, so I'm interested cause you, you, uh, mentioned the Frankfurt school a number of times,

00:16:37.360 and there's a lot of debate on the right specifically right now about kind of the origins

00:16:43.640 or even the nomenclature of cultural Marxism, right? A lot of people push back and say,

00:16:48.880 this isn't Marxism or this isn't related. Marxism is a economic theory. It has nothing to do with

00:16:54.660 this. What would you say to, to, to the notion that this is cultural Marxism, what we're experiencing

00:17:00.280 now? Well, you must know my position. I think it has very little to do with Marxism. And although,

00:17:07.220 you know, and there is, there's a kind of transitional stage, which you see in the Frankfurt

00:17:10.980 school, because, and by the word, the word Kulturmarxismus in German is a derogatory term,

00:17:17.580 but I can't think of anything, anything else to call them, uh, except, you know, the, uh, members

00:17:23.140 of the Frankfurter Schule or something, but I, it's very, very hard to come up with another term.

00:17:28.020 Um, but what they do is they turn the focus of social cultural, of social radicalism to culture

00:17:34.720 in the family without ever, and certainly in the case of Marcuse, who's my teacher, he never

00:17:39.860 renounces Marxism. They'll defend anything in Marx, remember saying in a classroom, uh, and he will,

00:17:45.540 you know, and say he makes some, some sort of, um, uh, clumsy attempt to defend everything in Marx,

00:17:51.080 but, but it was the social radicalism, which was the essence of what the Frankfurt school push.

00:17:57.300 Um, and, uh, and they were, I think, properly, uh, chastised, um, and, and worse than punished if

00:18:04.820 they got ahold of them by communist regimes. You know, this is not Marxism or Marxist-Leninist,

00:18:09.840 this is some decadent bourgeois philosophy you're giving us. And the communists were right. You 0.82

00:18:15.560 know, this, this was not Marxism. And then by the time, you know, but, but, by the time that I hear

00:18:20.920 Mark Levin on Fox News explaining that the reason we have gender reassignment is it's Mark, it's,

00:18:27.660 it's American Marxism. Well, it's no, it's not, it's nothing to do with Marxism. Um, it's what I call

00:18:33.520 in my, in one of my books, the post-Marxist left. It is still recognizably of the left because, uh,

00:18:41.100 these cultural radicals talk about equality. Uh, they attack Western parochialism. They want

00:18:48.340 universal. These are all, I might say leftist attitudes or gestures, but they are not the same

00:18:54.400 as Marxism, which is a socioeconomic system and which, you know, in its moral positions is quite

00:19:01.520 conservative. Like the French communist party condemned homosexuality. It won't let homosexuals 1.00

00:19:07.320 into the party. Yeah. Stalin, not exactly a fan party. Yeah. Interesting because I think a lot of

00:19:15.600 people get confused because they see the conflict between early Vanguard leftism and kind of the

00:19:23.040 managerial establishment. Sam Francis said that it was, it was a misunderstanding, right? That the

00:19:28.960 Vanguard left was kind of harassing the managers, but the managers were already moving in the direction

00:19:33.440 of adopting these things. They simply weren't moving fast enough. They didn't want to boil the

00:19:37.620 frog too quickly. Right. Do you think that that's a break as to why people misunderstand kind of the

00:19:44.040 origins of this and the, the attention of between maybe corporate America and leftism that doesn't

00:19:50.880 exist in the same way today? Right. I, I, I think there, there also is a tendency in the United,

00:19:56.800 and not in the conservative movement, certainly since the 1950s to call anything they don't like

00:20:01.620 socialism or Marxism, you know, and there are many unpleasant things out there that are not

00:20:06.920 socialist or Marxist. And I remember somebody coming up to the late Thomas Molnar, this was at a

00:20:13.500 Philadelphia society meeting in the 1960s. I'm sort of giving my age away here, but the there was some

00:20:20.560 young man said, uh, Professor Molnar, um, you know, communism and Nazism, they are the same thing.

00:20:27.140 And he sort of smiled and said, not exactly. And the, that's right. They're not exactly the same

00:20:31.860 thing. They may have some overlap, but you know, and they're, they're both unpleasant, but they're

00:20:36.220 different. And, uh, I think this, this is true about what I call now just wokeism, uh, which is not

00:20:43.580 anti-capitalist at all, which means that it cannot possibly be Marxist, right? And Marx, the Marxists

00:20:49.980 would want to overthrow the corporate capitalists. The, uh, uh, the wokesters are, are delighted, you 1.00

00:20:55.340 know, to have the, the support of corporate capitalism. And anyone who really believes that

00:21:01.060 a woke regime is going to go after, you know, uh, Bezos or people like that is, has to be crazy.

00:21:07.780 I mean, these are the ones supporting the regime, uh, Soros. I mean, you know, they're, uh, or whoever's

00:21:14.620 managing Coca-Cola or Disney world, uh, they're an alliance with the woke left. They give money to

00:21:20.500 the democratic party in the United States. Um, so, you know, it's, uh, say, well, you know, well,

00:21:25.880 there were some, some people back then when the communists were in power who were capitalists,

00:21:30.180 who supported them very few. Um, uh, and, you know, they typically supported communism in Russia,

00:21:36.860 not in the United States. Uh, and they made money out of it. But here there's a very close working

00:21:42.700 alliance between corporate capitalism and the cultural left. You know, the, uh, it's, it's

00:21:48.540 something which I think when forces one to question whether we're looking at Marxism.

00:21:53.460 Now on the other side of that coin, a lot of people will say the things that are happening

00:21:57.780 right now are a natural consequence of capitalism or liberalism, that they say that these are kind of

00:22:04.460 the eventual outcomes because, you know, they're looking to standardize consumption. And, and again,

00:22:09.800 Francis makes this argument, I think in some ways that, that this means that you, when you're having

00:22:16.360 an optimized company, you're always going to have a movement towards this. Do you feel like that's

00:22:20.860 true? Oh, I think it's totally true. No, I agree with Francis on that. I think, you know,

00:22:25.580 what, uh, Marx called, uh, or Hilferding called spätkapitalismus. Late capitalism very

00:22:32.000 definitely has a connection to wokeism. Um, and, you know, and I think part of the motive is

00:22:37.280 economic. You want to break down national barriers. Uh, traditional religious attitudes are bad because

00:22:43.140 women will stay on home and raise kids rather than have abortions, you know, and become consumers 1.00

00:22:48.560 and so forth. Um, I'm not saying this explains everything, but I think there's no economic

00:22:54.080 incompatibility between this cultural radicalism and late capitalism.

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00:23:25.580 Instacart groceries that over deliver. So I think the question that a lot of people have when they

00:23:32.680 look at the therapeutic state, well, actually, before we get there, I want to ask you one more

00:23:36.880 thing on kind of the nature of the therapeutic state. I want to get to that before we go any

00:23:40.640 further. So one thing that I've noticed, I think is that the demystification of the human being has

00:23:47.600 been a really key part of this, right? The idea that everything is knowable, everything is

00:23:52.940 quantifiable, everything is programmable, that you can put experts in charge of every aspect of human

00:23:59.260 life, gives the state the authority to then step in and control these areas.

00:24:06.200 No, I think it's absolutely right that people are quantified, they no longer have spiritual worth.

00:24:12.160 But at the same time, there is a hierarchy, a spiritual hierarchy that's being created.

00:24:16.060 Like, the black underclass obviously is more important than some white working class person,

00:24:23.700 you know, living in my town, which is, or, you know, in some Rust Belt place. So there was a

00:24:30.500 hierarchy, or the homosexual lesbian has a higher moral status than the heterosexual, right? We treat 0.99

00:24:36.580 him with much more respect. And the transgendered may have even more. So there is a hierarchy,

00:24:43.120 a kind of mystical spiritual hierarchy that's created, even within this, this world context.

00:24:50.360 But I agree with you, it's the quantifiable nature of human beings that allow the welfare state to

00:24:56.060 get said that, you know, these, every everything is measurable, you know, human beings, how long you're

00:25:03.260 going to live, how much you're going to cost the state, what you're what you're worth in terms of your

00:25:07.640 labor, like, you know, explain, you know, what's good about a mother and a housewife? Well, she really 0.98

00:25:13.420 produces this quantum of labor. I've seen this from from from libertarians, conservatives, trying to

00:25:20.080 quantify it. You know, the human relation is secondary, but the labor can be quiet. And by the way, I think

00:25:27.260 libertarians do a lot of this stuff. They love quantifying things.

00:25:31.660 Yeah, no, I agree. Unfortunately, that is a tendency that runs not just left, but right as

00:25:37.160 well. In fact, I think it's the right's willingness to embrace much of this language, which is a real

00:25:42.380 problem. Today, nothing is evil. Everything is a psychological condition, right? Everything is,

00:25:47.440 oh, they're crazy. They're psychotic. They're, you know, they're some kind of narcissistic personality

00:25:53.120 disorder. There's a removal of kind of the concept of evil. And that means that everything is kind of

00:25:59.320 can be ameliorated through this process, right? That, you know, bring in enough psychologists or

00:26:04.380 psychiatrists, put people on the right plan, deliver the right message, grow people up inside these

00:26:09.740 different institutions, and you can completely shape the human being. And that thing seems to be

00:26:14.200 like a key part of the therapeutic state. Yeah, but again, there's a contradiction there. I do mention

00:26:19.340 that point about what I call the pathologization of dissent in my book on multiculturalism. But I think

00:26:25.440 we've gone beyond that. There is a return to good and evil. But evil are the norm, the normal people

00:26:31.480 are evil. The people who are doing things that would have been considered insane, perverse in the

00:26:37.220 past, they are, they are, they're really spiritual guides to the rest of us. Like, you know, you bring

00:26:44.480 on TV and some gay person who says, you know, I'm exploring a new dimension of love and of human

00:26:51.400 feeling and the whoever's, you know, interviewing them. You see them on the, what is it, the four,

00:26:57.520 the five, sometimes I turn on these awful programs, but they're, they're truly are treated like

00:27:02.720 Christian saints. So I, and then of course, the people who oppose this are not simply sick,

00:27:09.700 they're evil, right? I mean, President Biden told us this. These are evil people. I mean,

00:27:14.700 they're like Nazis. It may be even worse because they're, you know, they're so insidious and

00:27:19.240 that they don't always surface. And the only thing we know about them is they voted for Donald

00:27:23.960 Trump. So, yeah, I think you're right to point out that maybe the, maybe the scientism was a

00:27:33.000 transitory ideology, right? It broke, it broke down and gave a rationale for the reason that these

00:27:38.420 things need to be dismantled, but it was never going to be permanent, right? It eventually would

00:27:42.200 have to be replaced with the ethical system you're talking about. There was no neutral institution.

00:27:47.360 It's just a way to, to disassemble what was there and then reassemble something else under the guise

00:27:52.800 of this neutrality. Yeah. I think what we saw, the use of the, the, the scientism is one might say

00:27:59.360 a brief period where there's some attempt made to retain a relationship to reality, like, you know,

00:28:08.700 science. Now, you know, now of course, you know, science is racist and sexist. We've sort of gone

00:28:14.860 beyond that. We've gone into total lunacy. One of the things that I hope that really interests me

00:28:20.760 is how anyone can believe this woke nonsense. And this is not like Marxism, which claims to be

00:28:27.560 scientific, which to a certain degree can argue even rationally. Even the Nazis could do this, 0.85

00:28:34.620 you know, intermittently, although they behave, you know, quite demonically. But now we're talking

00:28:40.220 about people who are totally, it will make no sense. You cannot even, and then different words

00:28:46.640 are condemned on different days of the week because they're offensive. And you're told that

00:28:51.900 mathematics is racist. You're not supposed to study this anymore and so forth. The communists,

00:28:58.340 no matter what, you know, what their theory may have indicated, knew that science was important.

00:29:02.900 Right. They leave you alone. It's science. These people won't, you know, and they've already invaded

00:29:09.700 the medical field. And, you know, as my son and brother, both of whom are physicians told me,

00:29:15.700 you go to medical school now, you're absolutely brainwashed with wokeness. You have to go through

00:29:21.740 woke sessions. My late wife grew up in communist Poland, and it was not as bad. I mean, the communists 0.97

00:29:30.680 were not as bad. These people are, control everything. They're total lunatics. It's like,

00:29:35.800 you know, I'm watching something on TV about Jesse, Jesse Owen, and he ran in the 1936 Olympics,

00:29:42.260 and the Nazis were controlling this. And they were, of course, very unpleasant people, 0.79

00:29:46.480 but Hitler did shake his hand, you know. Now everything is woke. Do you believe it'll even 0.91

00:29:52.720 let you into something unless you, you know, you practice wokeness, and you have to wear a woke

00:29:57.800 shirt if you play hockey, right? If you don't want to wear this, they're going to throw you off the

00:30:02.160 team. I mean, this goes beyond anything that I can imagine. I mean, communist countries were not this

00:30:09.140 crazy. You know, they left you alone, at least part of the time. They left certain institutions

00:30:15.480 alone. What I find interesting about this woke left is it embraces everything, everything in every

00:30:23.400 Western country at the same time. You know, and I think people hundreds of years from now, if they

00:30:30.240 survive this, may try to understand how this happened historically. Because, you know, even though I

00:30:37.400 write books on this, I'm still mystified. It's quite wild. You know, one thing that always captivated me

00:30:43.780 was looking at Oswald Spangler. And he, in the Carolina West, he said that, he predicted that the

00:30:49.800 West would walk away from science and math. He said that, you know, you basically, they would grow tired

00:30:56.020 of the constriction of these, the quantification, it would become too exact, and they would, they would

00:31:03.040 fall away from this and pursue like a second spirituality. Do you feel like wokeness might be the coming of

00:31:08.780 that, where this is now all-encompassing, and it forces people to abandon basic things like science and math

00:31:14.620 after this? Of course, Spangler has a relatively happy outcome, because you have Caesars rising.

00:31:20.100 Right.

00:31:20.700 You know, and taking power, I don't think we'll be that lucky.

00:31:25.080 Yeah, well, that's...

00:31:26.080 You know, the, what is the term? It's something, it's not part of, maybe it's not part of Genesis,

00:31:31.800 there's some other term he uses for this about the, the second spirituality.

00:31:37.360 I don't remember the term right away.

00:31:41.160 Spirituality is never as genuine as the first. 1.00

00:31:43.280 Yeah, that we might well be living through that phase, because in many ways, wokeness is a sort

00:31:51.220 of a crude, insulting imitation of Christianity.

00:31:55.480 Right.

00:31:56.340 So, I think that may be the link.

00:32:00.480 Yeah, absolutely. So, the thing that you've hit on multiple times, and I think is the big

00:32:05.020 question for a lot of people, is this seems so insane, how can, you know, it can't go on forever,

00:32:11.420 right? Like, like, eventually you lose function, like your, your society stops producing, it can't

00:32:17.740 land airplanes, it can't produce new prescription drugs, it, you know, it can't do the things it used

00:32:23.160 to do. And something has to give, I guess there's a couple questions wrapped up in that. But what do

00:32:29.580 you think about this idea that, that naturally, there will be some kind of pushback, because like,

00:32:34.700 the natural consequences of this mass ideological control have to, like, bear fruit at some point?

00:32:41.140 Yeah, I, but I think the pushback may come in the form of a disintegration of the alliance.

00:32:47.560 And I've argued this for years, that the woke alliance is unnatural. And it's not like, you know,

00:32:55.520 the Democratic Party, around 1930, so you had Irish Catholics, Russian Jews, Southern whites,

00:33:03.060 everybody voting for, because they just, you voted for one party rather than the other, right? Your

00:33:07.440 entire life was not affected by this. Right.

00:33:10.060 You know, and you got favors from the party. Not now we're talking about what is a full time

00:33:16.240 revolutionary movement. That's, you know, utterly devastating society and destroying us mentally,

00:33:23.800 as well as materially. It's, it's, but it's, it's made up of groups that don't have any natural

00:33:30.520 cohesion with, with, with each other. So you have, I mean, what, what do Muslims in Europe,

00:33:36.960 Muslim fundamentalists who are being brought in? What do they have in common with feminists or 1.00

00:33:41.840 homosexuals who are part of the alliance? Uh, what do black nationalists have in common with 0.98

00:33:47.560 transgender? I mean, you look, I mean, you know what they have in common. They hate the white

00:33:51.340 Christian core population, uh, right? The autochthonist population that has been there all 1.00

00:33:56.640 long. Um, even if it's weakened and it's lost its belief system and so forth, they still see it as

00:34:02.540 their enemy. Uh, so you, you know, you could unite against a shared enemy, but once you've done that,

00:34:08.760 what else do they have in common? I mean, what kind of program, but, and, and of course it seems

00:34:13.940 to me the really nasty groups in this alliance, the physically nasty groups, Muslims, black nationalists 1.00

00:34:19.180 have been very restrained. You know, they've let the, uh, the feminists, the gays, others sort of run

00:34:25.680 these movements. Um, at some point they may want to take over and take much more power for themselves.

00:34:32.720 Um, and they'll start fighting among each other as well. So I, I really don't see this as a very

00:34:39.200 cohesive alliance beyond destroying what is perceived as a common enemy. Yeah. Curtis Yarvin called the

00:34:46.880 left a mystery cult of power and that the only thing that actually binds them together is their desire

00:34:52.520 to kind of disassemble the current hierarchy. And, and, and that's really all that's necessary for

00:34:58.340 their political opposition. I think you bring up a good point, but the, the only thing that I think

00:35:02.880 about when you're talking about kind of the where warfare of those different groups is many of the

00:35:06.820 ones that you cite as those who are like morally opposed to other people inside their own, uh, their

00:35:12.920 own movement. The only thing is that the, it seems like the culture is assimilating those adverse 0.85

00:35:20.120 movements faster than they are pushing back against the culture. Right. So by the, I don't know how

00:35:25.400 long it's going to exist or go on. I think at some point there is going to be a breakup. Uh, you know,

00:35:31.520 the, uh, the black nationalists may humor this sort of, uh, uh, effeminate kid who's changing his

00:35:38.240 gender or something like that. Uh, they despise him, you know, and they, uh, they probably feel sick

00:35:44.660 being in the same alliance system with them. You are right that they keep, you know, they keep on moving,

00:35:48.480 but at some point it will be a question of, of who gets to run the show. And I think that that,

00:35:55.000 of course they may by then have destroyed everything because they're a totally destructive force. Um,

00:36:00.680 but I think they will, they will start fighting with each other.

00:36:04.140 You know, I think that's true. Like I said, I just think, uh, you know, think of like second or

00:36:08.460 third generation Muslim, you know, children are parroting more talking points from the woke left than 0.84

00:36:15.040 they are their own religious doctrine against the aspects of the woke left that they would in

00:36:19.400 theory oppose. So I, yeah, but, but they're all anti-Western. I mean, they hate Western Christian

00:36:25.320 society and, uh, they may hate it for different, but they also may hate it for different reasons,

00:36:30.660 you know, um, uh, like, you know, the kid who's overdosing on drugs and is changing his gender 0.79

00:36:37.560 or something has as a different reason to hate Western civilization than the Muslim, uh, who comes 1.00

00:36:44.500 here or the black nationalists. It's not, but they're, they're willing to cooperate because of

00:36:50.280 what they hate. Uh, here, my, the influence of Carl Schmidt keeps, keeps creeping in about friend

00:36:56.180 enemy relations, but, uh, it is, it is the sheer hostility, I think, which, uh, which allows the

00:37:03.700 alliance to cohere. And I think at some point it is going to, it will break up. The question is just

00:37:08.600 when in my view. So once they've defeated the shared public enemy, eventually they'll have no

00:37:14.200 other option, but to turn inward on, on the coalition. I think there's, there's a lot of

00:37:19.080 validity to that. So, so we've discussed the therapeutic state here. I wanted to hit a few

00:37:23.700 other things that I think are pretty relevant. You're a gentleman who's been known for, I would

00:37:30.360 think it'd be fair to characterize you as a paleoconservative in many ways. Do you think

00:37:34.080 that would be fair? Yeah, that's, that's true. Although I, if you read this, this new anthology

00:37:40.480 we put on paleoconservatism, it's obvious that there are many differences within the paleoconservative.

00:37:46.660 Oh, sure. Absolutely. Um, you know, I, I, we say we agree about first principle, but as you know,

00:37:51.940 if I look at some of the younger people associated with the paleoconservative camp, they tend to be

00:37:58.220 populist, right-wing populist, heavily influenced by Sam Francis, James Burnham, and to a lesser

00:38:04.640 extent by my writing. Um, the older generation of paleoconservatives, uh, tend to be sort of social

00:38:12.020 reactionaries, um, high church Anglicans, Catholics, uh, who are sort of hungering for a Catholic church

00:38:19.640 that ceased to exist a long time ago. Um, but the, uh, they, they really are very different. They're

00:38:25.860 sort of different mindsets, so they, they do cooperate. Um, and in terms of the conservative

00:38:31.960 establishment, they both are outsiders. Although if I'm not mistaken about this, some of the younger

00:38:37.680 populist, um, may become the wave of the future. They're not going to be isolated the way I spent

00:38:43.840 my life, you know, and, uh, you go to, I went to this national conservative conference, which I spoke

00:38:50.260 and, um, you know, most of those young people sounded very much like me. I was telling my wife

00:38:55.520 it was scary because I was like isolated for the last 60 years and really, you know, now everyone's

00:39:01.200 being to sound like me or I sound like them. Um, but, uh, uh, uh, I, I, I think, uh, the paleoconservatives

00:39:08.880 of a younger generation are becoming right-wing populist, uh, the paleoconservatives of an older

00:39:14.520 generation, I think are of a different cast of mine.

00:39:17.160 Um, I think that's very interesting. And that is the, the aspect that I wanted to talk

00:39:21.640 to you about, because I do think it's interesting that a gentleman like yourself, you know, was

00:39:25.960 at the, you know, the national convention here that so many people who are up and coming

00:39:31.180 in conservatism seem to be falling away from this old, uh, the, this kind of eighties and

00:39:39.400 nineties coalition and moving, um, much towards the ideas of guys like you, Sam Francis, Pat

00:39:45.600 Buchanan, a re a big recognition recently, I've noticed about, you know, kind of the

00:39:49.580 validity of many predictions of, of guy, a guy like Pat Buchanan. And, and I've, again,

00:39:55.460 I'm sure you guys have your differences, but just very interesting that there's been a big

00:39:59.760 shift. Like you said, the, many of the people who are offering solutions are in many ways

00:40:04.580 reaching back to a tradition that might've been diversified, but it has been held very

00:40:09.380 outside the conservative mainstream for a long time.

00:40:11.440 Yeah. I think what the paleo conservatives begin with is a critique. And as I argue in

00:40:18.060 some of my books on conservatism, they are not the same, you know, as the conservatives

00:40:22.200 of the 19th century or some other period, um, nor are they identical with the post-war

00:40:27.820 conservative movement of the 1950s, which was pretty much thrown together by Bill Buckley

00:40:33.380 and his friends and was focused on fighting the communist menace. Although there were people

00:40:39.480 who become associated with that, with that movement who later become paleoconservatives.

00:40:45.820 Um, but the paleoconservatives begin with the critique of neoconservatism, you know, and

00:40:51.100 they tend to be generally on the right of the neoconservatives on social questions, uh, social

00:40:56.560 and cultural questions. And they start with the critique. Um, uh, how can you call yourself

00:41:02.740 a conservative if you believe in, you know, spreading democracy all over the, why, why is

00:41:09.300 your view, why are democracy and human rights to be considered conservative positions? Um,

00:41:14.840 so this, this, this, I think is the beginning of, of, of a paleoconservative protest, which

00:41:21.940 it is, it's, it's, it's, it sort of never moves much beyond that. It is a protest against

00:41:27.320 the neoconservative takeover of the right, which is not led by people who necessarily

00:41:32.800 were part of the Bill Buckley conservatism. Although some of the people associated with

00:41:37.880 do become paleoconservatives, the, the, the paleoconservative leaders, myself included,

00:41:43.600 um, uh, typically come from the second or third rank conservatives of the earlier period where

00:41:51.720 we're not the leaders. Um, but we, but we do lead the opposition to the neoconservatives for

00:41:56.740 which we are, um, pretty much pushed out of the conservative movement. We're called racist,

00:42:01.920 anti-Semites, any, any, any name they could call us. Um, and for a while we rely to libertate,

00:42:07.760 to sort of right-wing libertarians with whom we've remained friendly. Um, although when I, I'm,

00:42:13.560 I really cannot consider myself a libertarian. Um, but I, I think, I think what happens is much

00:42:20.920 of that paleocritique is taken over by the younger generation. And you're right.

00:42:26.500 Right. They, they become much more, um, uh, important or significant in the conservative

00:42:32.020 movement, um, in the, in the last 10 years, five to 10 years, despite the fact they have

00:42:38.320 very few resources because the people with all the resources are part of the Murdoch media empire,

00:42:44.040 right? The Wall Street Journal, Fox News, National Review. Um, uh, the, the, the, the people on our

00:42:52.020 side, uh, have none of this control. We, we, we have, you know, we have less money, less media,

00:42:57.740 access to media and so forth. Yet. I, I think we're, we're making up for the gap between ourselves

00:43:04.820 and the, you know, the people who hold, uh, all these good cards. Um, what, one of, one of the

00:43:10.760 things I've observed with our magazine is that we are high quality magazine. We don't have, we don't

00:43:16.340 have many resources. National Review is becoming an awful magazine. It's barely readable, but you

00:43:22.860 know, they're sitting on a gold mine. You know, people throw money at them. They can be on Fox

00:43:27.400 News, right for the Wall Street Journal. We have none of these things on our side yet. I think we

00:43:33.500 are making headway, which, you know, is sort of an argument that there is at Zeitgeist and, uh,

00:43:39.480 on the right. And we, we represent it, even if we do not have the resources of those who still dominate

00:43:47.060 the, um, the heights of the, uh, uh, conservative, uh, establishment. Yeah. I think the reason that so

00:43:55.400 much of this has been powerful and you, you know, say what you want about Donald Trump, but he should

00:44:00.380 always, I think, get credit for his ability to kind of shatter the window when it comes to the

00:44:06.340 discussion of what was allowed of the conservative movement prior to him and what isn't. And, you

00:44:11.700 know, these issues like immigration and foreign policy, the economy and the protection of jobs,

00:44:17.820 things that the conservative movement was actively against their own base and fought their own base

00:44:23.680 tooth and nail at every step now is getting increasingly difficult for the conservative mainstream

00:44:30.840 to continue to do this. We see much of conservative Washington still trying to support

00:44:36.100 things like intervention in Ukraine and those kinds of things, but, but they are running into

00:44:41.160 more and more, uh, contestation from their own base. It's getting harder and harder for that. And I

00:44:46.780 think that's why the dialogue is shifting. The right wasn't allowed to interact with this Vanguard the way

00:44:51.840 the left was for most, you know, for most of your lifetime and certainly all of my lifetime. But now it

00:44:57.880 seems almost essential because what's left of the conservative establishment has so little to offer

00:45:02.120 its base that if they don't reach outside of their current worldview, they're, you know, they're just

00:45:06.700 drowning.

00:45:07.180 No, I think, I think you're right. But I think the most important factor, um, in explaining the

00:45:13.320 reorientation of the right, um, is, is corporate capitalism for years, for most of my life, the right

00:45:21.800 defended corporate capitalism, right? I mean, people like the Bush family, you know, they supported,

00:45:27.380 right. And, and others, you know, and of course what we were in favor of capitalism, capitalism

00:45:32.600 meant big business. Um, and you heard this for, for, for, for, for many years. Um, I think what

00:45:38.880 has become obvious is that corporate capitalism now stands with the cultural left. So if you want to

00:45:44.540 make an argument, you know, in favor of the working class against the, these corporate boards,

00:45:49.760 uh, it's very easy to do, uh, in a way that was not true when the working class voted for, you know,

00:45:56.360 democratic political candidates and it was assumed that corporate capitalists would side with the

00:46:02.180 cultural social right. No, I think that's, that's absolutely true. Uh, so the last part of this that

00:46:10.620 I wanted to talk about, and we have a lot of questions stacking up here, so maybe we won't go too

00:46:15.480 long on this one, but I thought I wanted to get your opinion. I think that one of the things that's

00:46:20.220 very difficult for conservatives to understand, um, I've made this argument a few times is that

00:46:25.860 when, for instance, they're having the discussion on, you know, uh, trans kids or something, they think

00:46:30.920 they're having a discussion about biology, like the, the biological facts of the situation. I explained

00:46:37.060 to them, they're having an argument about the civil rights revolution, um, that the right of the

00:46:42.240 government to enter into the family is inextricably linked to the right of the government to interfere

00:46:47.540 with other personal decisions that people make. And I think that it's very difficult for them to

00:46:53.100 understand like the legal framework and what is happening. I'm Christopher Caldwell's book about

00:46:56.940 the age of entitlement, I think has done a lot of work here recently. It's something that more people

00:47:01.280 are acknowledging, but it's still a hard concept for them to grasp. I totally agree with you. I I've

00:47:06.900 read, uh, Christopher Caldwell's, I agreed with him, uh, and I was absolutely shocked to find that

00:47:12.220 he was writing for weekly standard and national review because he's on our side. Uh, he probably

00:47:18.640 wouldn't recognize that because we don't have the influence or power that his present allies do,

00:47:23.120 but, you know, you're absolutely correct. Um, I have argued this for many years and I've been

00:47:28.460 attacked as a racist, uh, or insensitive or something like that. Uh, as I, as I point out in order to

00:47:35.000 say that arguing that the civil rights revolution, um, really is the beginning point for the wokeness

00:47:42.820 and everything we're now seeing does not mean that I think Jim Crow is nice, uh, or, you know,

00:47:48.680 we should forgive whoever killed Medgar Evers or so forth. Um, history is very complex and, uh,

00:47:55.340 sometimes, um, uh, sometimes you can find some good that is linked or tied up with things that are

00:48:02.620 very bad. And I think the civil rights revolution is one of them that, you know, there was a just

00:48:07.940 cause behind it, but it empowered institutions that have totally destroyed society, American 0.80

00:48:14.480 society. And to some extent, I think this has influenced European society because Europe is a

00:48:20.100 satellite of ours, Western Europe, particularly they do whatever we do five minutes later. Um, and

00:48:25.840 they read our books and, you know, I say this as a European historian and I speak several languages

00:48:30.580 and I can write several, I, I, I understand. I, you know, Europe had a great civilization.

00:48:36.180 It doesn't any longer. I don't see evidence of this or at the United States, um, uh, United States

00:48:42.760 heavily influences or shapes the values of European countries, Western Europe, in a lesser extent,

00:48:48.820 Eastern Europe, but even in Eastern Europe, this is now true. Uh, Hungary being one of the few 0.98

00:48:53.960 holdouts. Um, but the, uh, I think the civil rights revolution has profound, profoundly bad

00:49:01.580 influence on American society. It does produce some good. I mean, you know, if a black family 1.00

00:49:06.840 can eat at a restaurant in the South and they will be kept, I, I'm not sure that without the

00:49:11.400 civil rights revolution, those things would not have happened anyhow, but the civil rights

00:49:15.360 revolution certainly hastened them. Um, what it did, however, was to bring government social

00:49:20.720 engineering into every aspect of our life. And the people who held these positions were social

00:49:26.580 radicals. We've radicalized our society. And remember the civil rights act of 1964, not only 0.99

00:49:33.900 dealt with blacks, it also covered women. So we were able to carry out the feminist revolution at the 0.96

00:49:39.260 same time. Um, yeah, the, uh, the, the, the position taken by some conservative groups that I find

00:49:46.840 absolutely insufferable is to argue that all these bad things sort of happened five minutes ago

00:49:52.840 where things were going quite well, you know, and, you know, gay marriage is okay. And this is,

00:49:58.400 and maybe the, the gender reassignment is going a little too far or something. Uh, and of course,

00:50:03.140 next week it'll be, it's not, it would not be gender reassignment. It'll be sexualizing the very

00:50:07.680 young, although gender reassignment will be okay. You know, for older people, it just keeps moving 0.98

00:50:12.520 and going with the flow. And I, I think as scholars, it behooves us to go back and to see the

00:50:20.280 foundations of what we're now living through. And, uh, I certainly think the civil rights movement is,

00:50:26.900 is, is an integral, uh, an integral part of it. It is, it is, uh, it is foundational for understanding

00:50:33.180 everything else that has happened. Um, the argument that somehow civil rights leaders would all be

00:50:39.540 appalled if they saw what is happening is untrue. John Lewis, Jim Clyburn, other civil rights

00:50:46.460 pioneers are happy with everything else that's happened since then. You know, they've gone along

00:50:52.260 with every stage of the revolution, uh, quite possibly Martin Luther King would do that as well

00:50:57.720 if he were still alive at the age of a hundred and something. But, um, I, I think it's important to

00:51:03.580 understand that without looking at the civil rights revolution, you cannot understand

00:51:08.100 the managerial institutional basis for the revolution that we're living through.

00:51:14.440 Yeah. And it's amazing. I think you're right to point out that you can have something that was a

00:51:18.680 real problem. And, and, and as Caldwell points out was approached by most of Americans, probably in

00:51:24.200 good faith, willing to grant the government, these powers in their thought temporarily to solve a

00:51:29.560 problem that they thought didn't really affect their area. And suddenly the government has this power.

00:51:33.700 It wouldn't be the first time you think that small government conservatives would understand that

00:51:37.000 handing government domain in these areas was not going to end just at the problem they want solved.

00:51:42.940 Yeah. One of the things I find interesting is, well, the civil rights commission will be okay.

00:51:46.720 Cause we're putting this black person in who may be a Republican and may think of voting. 0.88

00:51:52.240 Even if you have this black person who's Republican, the whole institution is terrible. 1.00

00:51:56.640 You know, it's, it's there to engage in social engineering. You want to get rid of it.

00:52:00.320 Um, and at this point you have so many layers of, of social engineering bureaucracy. You don't even

00:52:06.960 know where to begin. And by the way, it's not just at the state level. Uh, it's at the, at the federal

00:52:12.280 level, it's the state level at the local level. Uh, and it's invaded the entire educational system,

00:52:17.940 including medical school and engineering school.

00:52:20.260 Which is particularly terrifying because that's when that competence breakdown really comes all

00:52:25.280 these people who thought that, yeah, with everyone who thought the scientism would protect us, that

00:52:29.580 those things would remain neutral is quickly learning that actually that, that isn't the case.

00:52:34.280 All right. Well, we're going to go ahead and take a few questions here. I see some excellent ones

00:52:38.120 forming up here. I'm sure the audience would like to pick your brain on some different topics here.

00:52:43.200 So let's check real quick. Uh, Norco Republican here for $5 asks, Mr. Gottfried, are you familiar with the

00:52:48.680 philosopher, uh, Byung-Chulam may be the way you say that. I'm sure I'm saying that wrong. Uh,

00:52:53.320 Han's idea of the palliative society. It's somewhat similar to the therapeutic state.

00:52:59.520 It looks like something that a Chinese scholar meditated on and came up with this, uh, with this

00:53:05.540 term. I, I, I, I can, I have some idea what the palliative state means, but I've never read the, uh,

00:53:13.460 the Chinese scholar who came up with the term.

00:53:15.340 All right. Let's go ahead and see, uh, Brad didn't hear just donating. Thank you very much,

00:53:20.480 Brad. Appreciate that. Uh, creeper here, weirdo for $5. Thank you. Is wokeism the attempt of

00:53:26.200 communists to use capitalism to lead to a communist revolution? I remember hearing that idea

00:53:31.320 somewhere. You went into that a little bit, but I don't know if you want to touch on that anymore.

00:53:36.560 No, I think, I think this gentleman might, might forget that notion. Uh, it's totally misleading.

00:53:42.700 Thank you. We have, uh, Heath here for $5. Is this basically biolism giving high status to low

00:53:50.440 status people, but based on social hierarchy rather than economics? Uh, well, I think, you know, uh,

00:53:57.400 Mr. Gottfried had already, uh, addressed to some level that, yeah, it is a coalition of those who

00:54:01.660 benefit from kind of the reconstruction of the social hierarchy of the West. Uh, let's see. Uh,

00:54:09.260 we have Brad didn't hear again for $10. Thank you, sir. Gottfried is exactly right. The church

00:54:13.880 suffers from the same leftward ratchet that neocons animate in the political. It is the

00:54:19.180 precisely because we have unwittingly accepted the therapeutic framework for thinking about issues

00:54:25.760 that the Bible speaks of solely in moral terms. That's very interesting. Yes. The, the entry of

00:54:30.580 the therapeutic, not only into the government, but into every realm, including ones like theology that

00:54:35.900 you think would exclude it from, from kind of its realm. It's correct. Absolutely. Let's see here.

00:54:42.880 We've got one more, I believe. Uh, TB 88 for $10. Thank you very much. Uh, is AI run society,

00:54:52.160 the final form of managerialism, all spheres of human life are managed by therapeutic AI, removing the

00:54:58.640 decisions human of human action that is vilified in favor of procedure. Many people do have this fear

00:55:05.620 that artificial intelligence after being given a framework of wokeism will then be placed in

00:55:12.420 charge of many of these, uh, many, many of these different institutions creating kind of a feedback

00:55:18.160 loop that will accelerate it even further. No, I, I think that's possible. Uh, the, uh, there's

00:55:25.080 absolute woke fanaticism by now. And, you know, it, it sort of, it, it permeates most scientific and

00:55:32.480 technological activities. So this, this would not surprise me if it eventually happened.

00:55:38.780 And then one more here from Quartz ZZ7. Thank you. $5 Canadian. Sorry about Canada. Uh, stream, uh,

00:55:47.320 steam programming is now shoehorned into anti-black racism programs as a base level made this be the

00:55:54.620 start of infighting. Interesting. Yeah. We have seen a number of people asserting that many of these

00:55:59.720 fields like we already talked about are, are anti-black in their nature. Um, do you see that

00:56:06.400 as a, as a possible fracture of the coalition there? What does steam stand for? I think he might

00:56:12.600 have meant stem, but I could be wrong. Uh, that's what I assumed he was talking about. If, if not,

00:56:18.360 maybe he'll be able to clarify that, but, but if we just want to go with that, that I think there

00:56:24.460 will inevitably be competition for getting the plums of government, you know, for, by, by these,

00:56:30.900 by these groups. Um, what, uh, one of the things I've, I've written on is the way Republicans, um,

00:56:38.820 uh, pretend that the people who vote for the Democrats, particularly racial minorities are

00:56:44.260 just victims. They're no way responsible for what they do. Um, and therefore we have to champion

00:56:50.360 in, uh, charter schools, uh, because these people are being victimized. Well, my view is,

00:56:55.940 is much crueler. Uh, it is that the people who voted for the democratic party in New York

00:57:00.500 and voted against, um, uh, voted against Zeldin, who was a perfectly reasonable candidate who would

00:57:07.320 have given them money for charter schools deserve what they get. And, you know, if they and the

00:57:13.040 teachers unions fight within the democratic party, that's great. Uh, I see no reason for Republicans,

00:57:18.700 you know, to run to the rescue of people who don't like them, you know, and say that they're

00:57:22.700 victims, um, and we have to help them. Um, I think, I think it's very, very bad politics to do

00:57:29.220 something like that. Uh, but, but there will inevitably be clashes among the, uh, the groups

00:57:35.060 that are, you know, vying for special favors as victims within the, the therapeutic order.

00:57:40.920 Yeah. I think we're already seeing that for instance, um, many of the, uh, establishment left

00:57:46.580 who are white have already figured out that they can move to like non-binary as a, as a quick hack 0.81

00:57:53.680 to get around the, the, uh, establishment hierarchy. Right. And they can get the, the, and many of the,

00:57:59.220 uh, uh, minorities in that group, racial minorities are now very angry at them. There's infighting

00:58:04.480 already inside that as to whether this is a legitimate oppression status, because it's so easy

00:58:09.560 for, you know, uh, uh, for, uh, white leftists to go ahead and mimic victimhood by, by using this,

00:58:16.100 by just, you know, wearing some different clothes or something. So I haven't quite heard how feminist 1.00

00:58:20.780 and Muslim fundamentalists can be united. They are an Ilan Omar, right? I mean, she tries to, 0.81

00:58:27.180 she's both a extreme Muslim and a radical feminist at the same time. A person like her would not be 1.00

00:58:33.100 allowed to exist, you know, in a Muslim, most Muslim countries, um, uh, she'd have to choose 0.96

00:58:39.080 one or the other. If she chose to be a radical feminist, she'd have to live here or in some other 1.00

00:58:43.220 Western country. I have one more question for you before we wrap up, because you, you got me thinking

00:58:48.480 about this with, with the failures of, of, of STEM and, and these other fields. What do you think about

00:58:54.700 the counter counter elites, like the possibility of guys like Elon Musk, are they going to emerge more

00:59:01.100 frequently because they can't do the things they want to do inside the woke, uh, social structure?

00:59:07.080 Will we start to see people try to escape this simply because they can no longer explore Mars

00:59:12.260 or something while shackled to the hierarchy that's being established by kind of the woke, uh, uh, agenda?

00:59:19.800 Yeah, I, I think to some extent, um, you know, Musk does believe what he says. He believes in open

00:59:25.420 discussion, which obviously the woke left, the left does not. Somebody like Bezos can do very well

00:59:30.880 right. Um, uh, even, even if they're, uh, uh, even if he's shackled and has to accept, you know,

00:59:36.800 woke positions and so forth, he doesn't seem to mind. Um, and then, you know, there, there, there,

00:59:42.060 there, there are many other people within the leftist orbit who, who operate that way and making a lot

00:59:46.520 of money. Um, I, I think, you know, we, we, we have to, uh, um, give credit to Musk for breaking from

00:59:54.540 this. Um, now he, he may be able to make some, a little more money in the end or something like

01:00:00.000 that, but I, I think he was really acting out of conviction and, uh, uh, he's some, he's some sort

01:00:06.440 of left libertarian, but a libertarian. And I think he was genuinely offended, uh, by, by what Twitter

01:00:12.920 did in closing people's accounts because, uh, because they didn't agree with the, the political

01:00:17.780 left. So, uh, I, I think he was acting out of conscience. Absolutely. All right, guys. Well,

01:00:24.280 we're going to go ahead and start wrapping this up, but Dr. Godfrey, before we go, I know you said

01:00:29.060 there's an anthology coming out with Chronicles, and I would really love it if you would give my

01:00:33.720 audience a book recommendation to start. If they've never read your work, where would you, uh, suggest

01:00:40.640 that they begin? I know there's a lot there, but, but if you could just hand them one book, what would

01:00:44.680 it be? It's sort of, it's sort of very hard to decide. And most of my books are difficult reading.

01:00:50.100 Um, look at the book of multiculturalism and the politics of guilt published, I think in 19,

01:00:55.940 2002, 2003. Uh, some of the examples I give are dated by now because his, you know, the current

01:01:03.380 events just keep changing. Um, but the, uh, you might find the, the structure of ideas interesting in

01:01:11.000 the critique of the left. Um, uh, another book I recommend is my book on anti-fascism,

01:01:17.140 which came out two years ago. Um, and as an attempt to sort of make sense of woke ideology

01:01:23.820 through the prison of anti-fascism and the various interpretations of fascism, you know,

01:01:30.520 since the 1930s, um, the current definite definitions, um, are entirely arbitrary. They have

01:01:38.440 nothing to do with historic fascism. So I recommend that. And there would be, there will be an 0.80

01:01:44.320 anthology, um, on paleo conservatism, but Lexington books is bringing that out and that will be

01:01:51.480 available by next month by February, early February. Excellent. Well, thank you guys for coming by and

01:01:58.020 thank you to Dr. Gottfried. Really appreciate it. I think this is a fascinating stream. I know a lot of

01:02:02.640 people were very excited about it. So very happy to have you on guys. If it's your first time here,

01:02:07.560 please make sure that you are subscribing to the channel. And of course, if you want to listen to

01:02:11.700 this as a podcast, remember that you can go ahead and subscribe to the Oren McIntyre podcast on all

01:02:16.100 the major platforms. If you do so, go ahead and make sure that you give it a rating or a review that

01:02:21.440 really helps with everything, but thanks for talking to us guys. And as always, we'll see you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - January 30, 2023

The Therapeutic State ｜ Guest： Paul Gottfried ｜ 1⧸30⧸23

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