The Auron MacIntyre Show - The Tragedy of 'Dune： Part 2' ｜ Guest： Morgoth

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00:00:12.760 learn more at pcxpress.ca hey everybody how's it going thanks for joining me this afternoon

00:00:18.560 i've got a great stream with a great guest that i think you're really going to enjoy so the new

00:00:22.920 dune movie is out i am a massive dune fan i've read pretty much all the books especially all

00:00:28.140 the terrible ones it's a it's a universe that i've always loved i've always been fascinated by

00:00:33.420 the later books get pretty bad but the early ones have a lot of very thoughtful commentary about

00:00:39.300 all kinds of things sociology ecology mankind it's it's very interesting it's it's a deep book it's

00:00:46.640 it's the next step beyond star wars a lot of people take as kind of young men when they're reading

00:00:52.120 science fiction i think that's why it's often so well loved in circles like ours and it's really

00:00:57.980 interesting that these new movies came out because many people look at dune i think correctly is a

00:01:02.540 very difficult film or a book to film and so there's a lot of questions of whether you can make a good

00:01:09.060 movie about it what what's going to be left in those kind of things i was a fan of the first movie but

00:01:14.060 the second movie i think leaves something to be desired i wanted to talk about several things about

00:01:20.020 this movie and of course the best person to talk about dune with is morgoth morgoth thank you for

00:01:24.900 coming on man no problem it's nice to be on the show again uh especially especially to talk about

00:01:30.000 this kind of thing it's me one of the favorite subjects of mine yeah same same thing man it's

00:01:35.280 you know spengler or dune i you know whenever i'm thinking about these things i know who i need to talk

00:01:41.120 to it's definitely a morgoth if you for some reason are not watching morgoth's videos or reading

00:01:46.060 his sub stack make sure to do so you can try to follow him on twitter but he's so ridiculously

00:01:50.500 shadow banned like i think i directly entered your name and even though we follow each other i don't

00:01:55.120 i i still wouldn't bring you up it's amazing that's that's depressing i thought i was getting

00:01:59.840 good traction i thought i was getting good numbers in spite of your shadow ban that's how good you are

00:02:08.860 that yeah you're breaking through i mean it's funny enough uh spang there's a lot of there's a lot

00:02:13.660 of similarities and crossover i think with with spangler's view of history and frank herbert's dune

00:02:18.800 which is probably why it sort of it's it slots together in my mind a bit as well absolutely yeah

00:02:25.120 one of the better statements about dune i'd ever heard was was from dave the distributist uh who

00:02:30.520 was on our stream last time we talked about dune uh but but dune is a book about time in many ways

00:02:36.300 and i think that's that's one of the reasons that you can feel those echoes of spangler in those the

00:02:41.260 cycle of civilization is certainly something that you see across multiple books if you read beyond just

00:02:47.020 the first book in the series but we're gonna get into the movie we're gonna talk about what we

00:02:52.460 liked what we didn't like well this will this will serve as both a review and as uh you know a delving

00:02:57.700 into deeper themes so if you haven't seen the movie and or for some reason you haven't read dune from

00:03:02.860 forever ago you spoilers i guess but before we dive into all that guys i need to tell you about your

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00:04:14.140 build your business that's newfounding.com backslash talent check it out today all right morgoff so i

00:04:22.720 want to use the classic you know the good the bad and the ugly format for this kind of review start

00:04:27.840 with the things that we like that were positive then to things that were not so great and then things

00:04:33.600 that were a disaster but before we get into the details what was your overall impression i think

00:04:39.660 from the title of the stream people might be able to tell mine but but what was your feeling about the

00:04:44.460 movie i thought that was a um there was lots of i thought the action actual action sequences i felt

00:04:51.120 like i'd seen it all before where there's just like sort of thousands of men running running at each

00:04:56.580 other i think that was sort of maxed out in in the lord of the rings era and then immediately after

00:05:02.120 that and so now you think yeah yeah i get it it's lots of cgi huge armies we've done it before and

00:05:08.420 then there's going to be like generic battle sequences but then when you touch on something

00:05:13.940 which is more specific to june like blowing up the the main harbor the spice harvester machines and

00:05:21.800 this kind of thing then it comes into its own a bit then you think okay now now i can say well this

00:05:27.040 is specific to june this is in the june world and to be honest i even in the first film i actually

00:05:33.720 really enjoyed the aesthetics of this it genuinely feels alien but at the same time human i think a lot

00:05:40.540 of science fiction can come across as being awful um but june has the advantage because they can dress

00:05:46.640 people up in more traditionalist uh sort of garb which feels more human and rooted in a history

00:05:53.040 whereas in something like star trek when they're running around with those uniforms on it always

00:05:59.300 i don't know i don't like that um and for a particular on the the subject of set pieces

00:06:06.800 i loved the sequence where paul mounted the worm for the first time i thought that was just

00:06:13.620 spectacularly done um the the little touches the the the music was grating for most of the time but

00:06:21.980 on that one it they kind of got it just right um i thought the build-up to the the the sequence was

00:06:27.980 great and then even you know when he's he's got his grappling hooks and he's getting lashed all over

00:06:33.660 by the sand and then when he gradually begins to get to his feet and you see that his legs are wobbling

00:06:40.040 with the just the immensity of it all and then he actually stands a proper and he's done it and so you

00:06:46.780 had this uh sort of a trial um where he got the payoff and he did it and it didn't come easy

00:06:53.660 and that's that's the kind of thing that i like that's the kind of thing that i like to see in june

00:06:57.740 where too often now i mean we'll get on the girl bosses later i'm sure of it but we've become kind of a

00:07:04.660 custom where everybody gets something for free and they don't suffer for it and that's never that's

00:07:09.760 never been what june is you suffer the the characters in june suffer a lot um and i think it came across

00:07:16.500 so well in the in the worm mounting sequence and then i mean i think um the the actual sort of end

00:07:26.080 battle it seemed to be all over quite quite quickly quite abruptly and that that that's kind of true to

00:07:33.100 the book and to the david lynch novel but uh and i felt i feel as if they did that on purpose because

00:07:40.060 they're setting it up for june messiah to be in the next in the franchise but uh overall i didn't hate

00:07:48.200 the movie um i didn't there was people in my replies before when we when we were sort of pitching the

00:07:54.340 stream saying come on it wasn't that bad no it wasn't that bad but i mean dave cullen said on

00:08:00.660 computing forever like is it is it getting the past because there's so much rubbish out there like

00:08:06.220 how would this stand up if it came out in say 1999 or 2001 or something so that that's that's

00:08:14.100 interesting to consider as well that's a gen me general assessment of the movie yeah i feel in a

00:08:21.340 similar way it's too much to say that it's a bad movie i don't think it's a bad movie and actually

00:08:26.480 if i had never read the book if i just if i was just a random guy off the street who had seen

00:08:32.200 dune part one and walked in and watched dune part two i would say that was a good movie like that that

00:08:38.380 was a strong movie it has the advantage like you said of being surrounded by very bad movies this is

00:08:45.560 way better than any marvel garbage this is way better than anything we're getting at a disney with

00:08:50.880 star wars or whatever so it's not a high bar but it's clearing that bar so is it better than

00:08:57.060 most things in the movie theater today yeah i think it is i mean i saw it on imax i think that

00:09:02.700 was well worth it it's a beautifully shot film i agree with you that the aesthetics are one of the

00:09:07.880 key things that villanue really gets down uh he communicates visually uh a universe that is not star wars

00:09:17.360 which is really important i think that you're right to say that star wars and star trek are very

00:09:23.100 much their own thing and their visual language has invaded almost everything science fiction at this

00:09:28.820 point even things that aren't directly science fiction like marvel movies that that kind of brush

00:09:33.680 up against it and so there it's so you're so used to that visual language being universal that when we

00:09:39.800 see something like dune it truly feels alien while also feeling more human somehow and the way that he

00:09:47.160 communicates that is really important like you said the the battles where they're just running at each

00:09:52.300 other does nothing for me but those specific scenes like when they're shooting the the oranthopters with

00:09:57.760 the uh with the bazooka and they're trying to get through the shield and everything like that was a

00:10:02.180 really great scene the worm scene was a really great scene so it's not that the movie is a complete

00:10:06.680 disaster it's not that there's there's nothing redeeming about it i would agree that in general it's it's

00:10:12.640 probably better than most of what you're seeing however uh it has some really critical flaws and i

00:10:18.420 think the flaws are important not just because oh the my movie wasn't just like my book and now i'm angry

00:10:24.160 it's that the the things that couldn't be communicated in the movie uh are there aren't

00:10:31.520 communicated just because oh well we didn't have enough time on the screen or something or there's a

00:10:35.280 technical limitation it's because our culture can't handle a lot of those things i think characters like

00:10:41.140 cheney were critically changed i think that the the interactions between uh the you know the idea

00:10:47.500 of the religious interactions and things these things were critically changed because i don't think

00:10:52.040 the director or the you know the people who are funding the making movie really could tell those parts of

00:10:58.640 the story because they've completely lost that connection i mean dune is a book written in the 60s and

00:11:04.740 it feels like in you know what isn't that long ago you know it's very not that great of a span of

00:11:10.880 time we've completely lost the ability to explore some of those themes and so they just had to

00:11:15.620 cut them down or cut them completely out in order to make it so an audience with modern taste would have

00:11:21.920 an ability to follow what was going on yeah i think they were also uncomfortable with the the the family

00:11:28.700 elements of it like um you know in the book uh paul and uh shani actually have a child who dies

00:11:35.940 there's no i mean and and the time scale is all truncated down to what seems like just a few weeks

00:11:43.060 i mean even the um the weird the weirdest thing i thought was that jessica doesn't even give birth to

00:11:49.780 alia and and this if so in the way that it works the for the beny jesserit is that the consciousness of

00:11:59.660 the past is passed down through the female line um and so jessica alia will have that but

00:12:07.420 what in actual fact she's comes out where she's like a three or a four-year-old little girl

00:12:14.100 but she has the knowledge and awareness of like a senior sort of beny jesserit uh reverend mother

00:12:21.480 who's like 60s or 70 years old so it comes across as this really odd creepy scary little child who

00:12:30.660 isn't quite a child and in the film jessica was walking around talking to her womb um and absorbing

00:12:38.480 knowledge and the knowledge from her womb which which i thought like give it giving the sort of the

00:12:43.120 progressive ideas that they sprinkled in there that's kind of a weird way to go with that because

00:12:48.580 it opens up interesting questions about the the pro-choice debate and abortion like if you're

00:12:53.900 walking around talking it's it's just i just thought what do they think of that and so yeah i thought i

00:13:00.540 thought that was kind of strange and because alia isn't even born it had consequences at the end with

00:13:06.140 baron harcone and and and all these things and you got the you got the feeling that it was a stupid

00:13:11.940 move because they could have done it where it just flashed up on the screen like 18 months or two years

00:13:17.480 later or something like that and they didn't even do it but i think for whatever reason uh they just

00:13:23.640 weren't comfortable with the religious aspects the more esoteric aspects but also just children and

00:13:30.780 family as well yeah which is really interesting i guess let's let's start there with the things that

00:13:36.060 didn't work because i think that that is probably my central complaint about what happened what happens

00:13:41.780 in this movie obviously if you you know the one of the biggest changes is girl boss cheney right we

00:13:47.680 have zendaya a lot of questions about her casting in general but specifically uh this is a character

00:13:55.140 that has to be you know strong and powerful and has to be her own woman because that's the only way we

00:14:02.040 know how to write this kind of stuff and of course that character in the novel is very strong she she's a

00:14:09.120 she's a fighter all of the fremen have to be you know the the way that the the tribe is set up that's

00:14:14.640 just a necessity of people in this kind of harsh condition but in the book it's never assumed like

00:14:21.240 it is today that a woman being strong or a woman even being a combatant means that she wouldn't be a

00:14:27.820 mother that she wouldn't be a loyal wife that she wouldn't support her husband and you know also assume

00:14:34.660 the feminine roles that are attached to that but of course a modern audience can't look at someone

00:14:39.380 like zendaya and say oh well she's gonna back paul and so they critically change her character she in

00:14:46.280 the book is someone who is one of the deepest believers in paul and his mission and even though

00:14:51.340 she believes in him she also serves an incredibly important purpose of keeping him grounded throughout

00:14:57.240 the entire story because she's still kind of the the home the the personal place the set apart from

00:15:04.000 the larger mission she sees who he is and who he's becoming but she still cares about him

00:15:08.940 individually and that has a really powerful impact because of course like you said they end up having

00:15:14.360 a child and so when siege tabar is killed in or destroyed in the book it really matters because

00:15:20.460 their child is murdered in that it's a it has a lot of impact in the movie they reference it for like

00:15:26.660 four seconds you're like what is happening the siege got blown up okay no one cares no one of

00:15:31.580 consequence dies it has no it usually completely rob it because you had to remove that impact

00:15:37.700 because you can't have her having children because well you know she has to show up as a hard-bitten

00:15:43.260 for dyken in the last uh battle and so she can't have she can't be a mom at the same time she also

00:15:48.580 loses all the important interactions with change with uh with paul's mother because they're both having

00:15:54.240 children you know more or less simultaneously or or very close to each other they're they're sharing that

00:15:59.660 kind of bond in some ways even though it's awkward and others that interplay and finally if cheney's

00:16:06.280 not with paul if they're you know at the end of the movie then how do you get dune messiah and children

00:16:12.060 of dune like the whole the whole point of those sequels is that cheney feels the loss of the first child

00:16:18.420 she's unable to bear him an heir which puts a lot of pressure on his eventual uh you know marriage to

00:16:25.080 princess earlon to go ahead and possibly have a child then and she goes through this whole spice

00:16:30.980 ritual to to kind of make sure she has to have these children like all of that is critical to the

00:16:36.660 storyline and you've removed all of it because you had to remove the family and and the wife aspect of

00:16:42.740 cheney's character you strip her of basically everything that makes her a likable person and a

00:16:48.160 critical part to paul's journey yeah they also changed the character of lead kinds to a black

00:16:54.140 woman and and here again you like they've switched it so that she then was uh involved or we it's kind

00:17:03.900 of hinted at that she had a relationship with a fremen but in in the book it's a much it's much more

00:17:10.360 embedded and uh within the fremen as a family there's children and there's relationships involved all over

00:17:16.200 the place and so all all of this it's like it's like the director just didn't want to have all of

00:17:23.640 these connections so you get the impression that people just jump out of the ground they don't have

00:17:28.140 children which which is which is is like a major a major point to to to june and another on the point

00:17:35.820 of changi as well is that she actually turns into a kind of richard dawkins new atheist type where it's

00:17:42.620 she starts to criticize the religious aspects and steps completely outside of that frame

00:17:48.120 going on about how it's all this sort of control mechanism and it's going to be oppressive and

00:17:53.900 all of this kind of thing as as if like it's as if they needed a kind of progressive counterpoint

00:18:02.740 to some of the like the raw reactionary elements within june and it's as if they were workshopping it

00:18:10.680 somewhere and they were like well look this is going too far like okay we've got the diversity

00:18:16.080 that we need in there but it's more than that it's the actual raw content of of the world itself

00:18:23.320 is is problematic so we need a critical voice in there we need we need somebody who's thinking

00:18:30.340 critically and can ask questions and all of this kind of thing and so they they did that

00:18:35.760 instead instead of actually having a senior figure uh somebody in in a place of responsibility of power

00:18:43.700 doing that they actually which i think would have been more skillful because it would question the

00:18:49.140 world more they actually sort of did it all under they handed it all to shani yeah the the way that

00:18:56.180 the religion thing was handled was just terrible all over the place it's interesting you know my wife had

00:19:01.720 not read dune before we got married and so she ended up reading it because of how much i liked it

00:19:06.000 and she ended up watching the movies and things and you know when she's going through it she says

00:19:11.240 i don't think i like paul and i'm like yes exactly because part of the journey is paul is not luke

00:19:17.560 skywalker it is the journey paul is on is a very different journey paul is becoming this religious leader

00:19:24.880 he's embodying his own myth and as that happens he does things and takes attitudes that aren't

00:19:31.760 probably something that the average modern person would be comfortable with and that's part of the

00:19:37.040 story is that actually the you know the the the destiny uh the prophecy uh the the religious fervor

00:19:44.900 it is a commentary on those things but it's a far deeper commentary because you have to build over

00:19:51.140 that time where paul works with the you know teaches the firm in the weirding way which is the

00:19:55.800 actual reason they care about him in the first place and in his mother they don't talk talk about

00:20:00.580 that at all in the movie and the fact that he builds the fedakin and they you know they kind of

00:20:05.380 build this this slow religious cult around him in the movie it's just turned into this binary decision

00:20:11.680 of well if you go south to where the fanatics are uh that's where the religious fanatics are yeah

00:20:17.380 really subtle by the way guys that's but you go south that's where the religious fanatics are

00:20:23.040 and once you cross that line you you you can't come back and i think it's a it's hard because

00:20:29.520 i don't think a lot of directors know how to actually write a character like that or how to portray a

00:20:35.820 character like that uh because they don't they don't know how to develop it so you have this guy and

00:20:42.020 he's on the hero's journey and you just need like this moment where basically he does a heel turn and

00:20:46.380 become and he like embodies this religious zealotry instead of being able to build up this you know

00:20:51.900 this uh thing that's happening over time this religious movement that's building around him

00:20:56.200 because that's the only way they can understand it paul was a good guy and then he flipped the switch

00:21:00.680 and activated the dumb religious people and now he's evil they there's no way that they're able to

00:21:06.580 build that nuance because they themselves don't understand it yeah yeah exactly and they they injected

00:21:12.680 that north south in like that's new as well where the people the people of the north uh presumably

00:21:18.980 they they are more liberal basically there's no other way to put it to get to it and the people

00:21:25.080 of the south are more fanatical more religious extremists it's yeah it's it's right that you pick

00:21:31.720 it up one you see it you see it in the the ethnic makeup as well where when when i knew when i heard

00:21:38.460 they were going to do the dune i knew uh what they would do with the fremen because from the

00:21:44.040 perspective of uh today's hollywood i thought that's such low-hanging fruit because it does lean

00:21:50.140 into the desert and islam and the it's got these themes in it and so that that's kind of coded as to

00:21:57.260 be uh non-western and so they they i knew that's the direction they would go in um but i was actually

00:22:04.640 surprised at how far in the other direction they went for the harkonnen where it's like fins and uh

00:22:11.200 uh a swede and a greek and uh all all they're all like ethnically european white and they are all of

00:22:19.520 course uh the bad guys and and it's it's kind of sad because you you think yeah like where where we are

00:22:26.160 the we are the mid-century germans again it's it's it there's no getting away from it there's no way

00:22:31.920 you can get around that even if you think the cinematography was excellent it will always come

00:22:37.500 down to that um and it does affect your viewing and and it's kind of like i think this dune there's

00:22:44.520 a temptation to kind of say like it is a discussion to have because it is for them to cast the fremen

00:22:53.780 as being very diverse was very low-hanging fruit for hollywood um but then it's it's like well do i

00:23:01.240 just live with it and then well if i live with it it's it's it's like i i'm kind of selling out like

00:23:08.040 i know what they're doing here and shall i just go around anywhere with it like well will i just

00:23:13.060 sort of absorb it and and step over it but then when you see like just this the scale of the

00:23:19.840 difference between the harkonnens um i i under under fremen it it did kind of rankle because i thought

00:23:26.720 well yeah we are the bad guys again yeah when you have you know okay so the desert islam they're

00:23:34.460 north african okay you can kind of see you know they're going to do this anyway so at least it's

00:23:40.060 somewhat logical and you think well surely they could just stop themselves there right like that'll

00:23:44.080 be sufficient but you're right the problem with this stuff is it never stops and that's the thing

00:23:48.640 is even when you think like oh well okay i can see how you get two and two there and that gets you

00:23:52.720 to four and we know there's going to be some degree of this and so surely that'll be enough but

00:23:57.240 even when it comes to the you know the the different ways that they go ahead and code the the villains

00:24:02.860 and the heroes it it can't even stop there we have to inject new atheism we have to inject this

00:24:08.100 weird uh kind of uh sub uh you know american geographical uh you know dig in here like it just

00:24:14.900 it never just stops at that one change and that's always the problem it's always going to bleed deeper

00:24:20.420 i want to get more into the harkonas i thought that was also a a kind of failure there as well

00:24:25.880 i want to go ahead and get to alias because uh i think that's another big change but before we get

00:24:30.640 to all that guys let's go ahead and hear from newfounding venture hey guys i need to tell you

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00:25:33.260 again that's newfounding.com slash venture fund all right so like i said the harconans were another

00:25:40.520 disappointment for me this is a villain that is always over the top right they're always very

00:25:45.500 theatrical that's part of it so i expect that there's nothing wrong with that uh but obviously

00:25:50.920 the way that they uh portrayed them and particularly how dumb they seem to be in the second movie

00:25:57.260 in the first movie the baron you know sitting there explaining his plans slowly to the duke who is

00:26:03.260 paralyzed like that that is a really interesting scene that's a very you know it's a terrifying villain

00:26:09.320 that communicates the the menace but also uh how scheming and plotting and and kind of nefarious

00:26:15.840 uh the harconans are and so i think they're pretty well portrayed in the first movie in the second movie

00:26:22.220 they're just dumb like they're just really stupid in the books rabban is a is a ploy he's used as a

00:26:30.180 cudgel to go ahead and break the fremen open to go ahead and shatter uh the resistance in dune

00:26:36.540 and then fade is supposed to come in and be the charming guy who saves everyone from rabban

00:26:41.140 that his bad governance is is actually part of the baron's larger plan to set up his own uh heir

00:26:48.460 you know his chosen heir the the real heir to the throne and in the movie they're just they're just bad

00:26:53.660 like the the the the the the harconans are just bad at what they do uh they're messy uh they're they're

00:26:59.280 all of their plans are really dumb and obvious none of it works it just feels like there's no time

00:27:05.280 with spit and making these guys interesting the slightest no the the like if you were the emperor

00:27:10.700 you'd never put these guys in charge of arrakis like never because they're completely incompetent

00:27:16.480 stupid and and in like in the book and even in the original david lynch movie baron harconan was was

00:27:23.340 ridiculous but there was a he does have his own i hesitate to say charm but he does have something

00:27:31.080 about him he taught firstly he has a lot more lanes he talks a lot and he's all about plans within

00:27:37.460 plans and schemes within schemes um and he's a very entertaining character i remember the first time i

00:27:43.660 read the book i was even skipping back and reading his his lines again because i thought it was it was so

00:27:49.020 interesting and you get the impression here that it's kind of like he got the look well this is going

00:27:55.880 to be he's going to look cool when he's coming out of that oil bath thing and then when he's fat and

00:28:01.520 he's floating and we've got we've got the aesthetics right raban is that huge actor who pops up these

00:28:07.980 days so we've we've got all of that right and we just don't really need to flesh out the characters

00:28:13.620 they don't need to have characters they're just bad and then that's the end of it um you know i know

00:28:19.440 it's fashionable to sort of everybody to slag off game of thrones but the characters in that i mean

00:28:25.220 even late stage even the final season of game of thrones which everybody complains about had better

00:28:30.540 written characters than what the hawk honans are in in this june movie yeah absolutely and so the next

00:28:38.260 part i would say another disappointment would be alia like we kind of mentioned earlier you understand

00:28:44.320 to some degree why that character is hard to communicate obviously uh putting you know child

00:28:50.400 actors are notoriously difficult especially one that would have to be as young as her

00:28:54.940 but she is a critical part of the story like you said the pre-born uh the pre-born nature of her

00:29:01.760 explains a lot of what paul's going through and i think that was another thing that was really not

00:29:06.800 explained at all the quizlex hadarak is not explained what what why is that significant and i think it's

00:29:12.360 not explained because the whole point of that is that paul is a man doing what the beny jeseret

00:29:18.620 usually do and the fact that a man could finally do this meant that he could immediately go beyond what a

00:29:24.860 woman could do and that is just something hollywood is just not going to put on film and so they

00:29:30.460 basically just throw this term out there but they never explain it they don't explain what's going

00:29:35.820 on you don't know what this transformation means you don't know why he actually needs to drink the

00:29:40.240 water of life you don't understand like basically any of this that like you said the genetic memories

00:29:45.940 that happen only to a reverend mother they don't happen to your average beny jeseret but

00:29:50.660 if the reverend mothers go ahead and take you know go through the trial then they get access to

00:29:55.960 all of these previous lives and that ability gives them just a vast amount of knowledge all these

00:30:02.360 skills uh an incredible continuity and all these consciousnesses kind of join them and that happening

00:30:09.300 to alia so young is a critical part of the next couple of movies because it because it's never supposed

00:30:15.680 to happen to a child and that ends up driving her insane that's a that's a critical part of what

00:30:21.600 happens next but it also uh is a critical part of what happens to paul because he gets access to

00:30:27.680 these memories in a way that was never supposed to happen to a man and when he does that he becomes

00:30:32.460 not just the quiz like satirac but becomes more the whole reason that paul is dangerous is that he's

00:30:37.340 not just the quiz like satirac that he goes ahead and uh goes to the place that they are not able to go

00:30:44.120 he he is able to go far beyond those abilities part of that is also his mentat training which they

00:30:49.980 don't touch on at all and so there's just a lot of that is left out i think specifically because

00:30:54.580 you can't have the scene where he just yells at them like woman you don't understand what i can see

00:30:59.300 now because i have ascended to a level that you can you are not capable we hope you're enjoying your

00:31:04.260 air canada flight rocky's vacation here we come whoa is this economy free beer wine and snacks

00:31:12.200 sweet fast free wi-fi means i can make dinner reservations before we land and with live tv

00:31:18.920 i'm not missing the game it's kind of like i'm already on vacation nice on behalf of air canada

00:31:26.620 nice travels wi-fi available to airplane members on equipped flights sponsored by bell conditions

00:31:31.360 apply see your canada.com yeah the mentats are hardly in it at all it's basically some weird fat man

00:31:39.160 who blinks uh for a few now and then at the beginning but you you know it's not explained

00:31:44.120 and i think for i mean to be kind i think from the writing perspective because they didn't i mean i did

00:31:51.100 a video on the book larry and jihad and stuff uh last year and i think they were thinking well

00:31:56.420 yeah we if we start to tug on the fact that they've got what amount of human computers we're gonna

00:32:03.880 have to like go off on another tangent about why they don't have computers and and where and and it's

00:32:09.780 well yeah let's just sort of make him stand there and blink a little bit uh and we'll we'll just we'll

00:32:15.740 just not really explain what the mentats are why why there is this pressure um on the civilization

00:32:22.680 to produce a replacement for computers or why even the beny jesuits are around and all of this kind of

00:32:29.760 thing i mean i do think though that the the timing you know you get these big uh movies dropping into

00:32:39.140 the cultural discourse and i do find the timing of june uh very interesting i'm not suggesting that

00:32:45.980 anything was planned or some kind of you know that was some kind of beny jesuit style conspiracy going

00:32:52.300 on with hollywood or whatever but when you it's it's like it reflects quite well the sort of the

00:32:59.900 the way woke connects with this emerging third worldism and this the fact that the western empire

00:33:07.380 is fraying at the edges and you're seeing rebellions i mean literally the islamic rebellions and if you

00:33:14.140 take in the the palestine situation you've got the ukraine war you've got tensions going on all over

00:33:20.120 the place and it's as if it's as if we are in this empire and it's kind of beating off this kind of

00:33:27.680 high energy resistance so it's fraying at the edges and june leans into that uh very well and i was doing

00:33:35.560 a little bit of snooping on youtube today just to sort of see what people were picking up on to see if

00:33:42.340 they were getting into this and there is there is videos uh about that quite a bit and i think it's

00:33:48.660 interesting because it it puts us in a strange position because once again you're going to have

00:33:53.940 the the sort of the progressive left uh feeling an affinity for the fremen and for the the kind of

00:34:01.840 the the the jihad essentially um against against this sort of spiritualist sort of technocracy

00:34:10.800 and then we uh in in in the dr kind of find ourselves in tuned with this where what funny

00:34:18.940 enough i wrote an article a couple of weeks ago called the online rights kobayashi mayu test where

00:34:24.880 how do we actually deal with these emerging trends where where is our place and all of this because it

00:34:30.900 seems whichever way we turn we we don't want to side with the regime that hates us on the other hand you

00:34:36.600 don't want to side with the enemies of western civilization and i actually think it's quite

00:34:41.260 interesting that june emerged it kind of landed in the discourse as we have all of these things going

00:34:49.100 on and you see this kind of it's it's laced with the cultural zeitgeist and with with with what we

00:34:56.980 think of as sort of woke intrusion into hollywood as well especially with this the shani character

00:35:03.220 um and then and then the wider arc of it is uh of june we what we've got it's like what do we do do

00:35:10.320 you defend the empire or or it's it's it's a it's a difficult situation that i find that we're in

00:35:16.060 yeah that's true it is that this is the problem when the institutions that you know that are supposed

00:35:24.280 to hold up your own civilization betray you right like the the the average person can no longer trust the

00:35:30.740 the very structures that were designed to hold their civilization aloft but you also can't sign

00:35:36.560 with the people who are trying to crush your own civilization you know this is always the weird

00:35:41.460 thing for instance yeah i i read people like alexander dugan and people say oh well you're a duganist

00:35:46.700 and like no i i know dugan hates me and wants me dead but some of his critiques are interesting some

00:35:52.880 of them matter and so i read what i think is useful and i leave the rest and i think that's often the

00:35:59.100 situation where we're in you know that we just we we look at these things and we realize that they're

00:36:04.420 real sicknesses going through our own civilization we recognize many of the criticisms from outside

00:36:10.260 that civilization have some level of validity or we wouldn't be in the position where we're in

00:36:14.480 we also realize the people bringing them really do hate us or wish wish us ill simultaneously i just

00:36:20.540 had glenn greenwald jumping my mentions on twitter about this basically where i was like well you know

00:36:25.300 if you import a large amount of people you're going to end up with their very conflicts so you can't

00:36:29.160 be surprised when say you know pro-palestinian groups start tearing down you know things in

00:36:33.820 cambridge and it's like well you know it's it's it's all these people in your own civilization that are

00:36:38.640 pushing forward too like yeah i'd understand like i'm i'm fully aware of the level of the problem that

00:36:43.500 we really are stuck uh you know between this that doesn't mean make my point less valid but yeah i get

00:36:49.060 how how kind of stuck we are oh yeah and we're seeing these uh lots of talk of conscription and

00:36:57.000 lots of talk of what amounts to like we we need our own saudi car we need our own sort of elite

00:37:06.520 troops and you're gonna have to do it and you think well yeah but what's in it for us like you hate us

00:37:11.700 you actually actively side with the people who are tearing down works of art and tearing down statues

00:37:18.880 like launching hate campaigns on the native local populations and so on the one hand we find

00:37:26.560 ourselves both as the fremen as a kind of oppressed people but then also being at the heart of the

00:37:34.540 empire as well and of course i thought it was interesting that this time there's no ambiguity

00:37:40.480 about which side the the like starship troopers like the the the the left instinctually knew

00:37:47.780 that they would say with the fremen and their culture wars they they both madly again like they

00:37:56.160 they would end up back back in galactic jihad to take out the empire not understanding that there's

00:38:02.060 not much of a future in that for them themselves um and and we we are kind of stuck in the middle

00:38:08.160 trying to find a freedom of reference or some kind of north or south to find that in the in this whole

00:38:14.120 mess what do you think that means for the franchise then are we in a you know one of the criticisms that

00:38:22.000 i think david distributes and i believe you also kind of leveled at uh game of thrones is they simply

00:38:28.580 couldn't finish that story it's unfinishable because of kind of the times we live in our attitudes

00:38:34.140 towards these things is simply there's no catharsis there's no end to that story because

00:38:38.600 we've lost our ability to actually explore those themes when they've stripped out all of these

00:38:43.440 aspects of dune you know you can go ahead and push i guess like you said the third worldism aspect you

00:38:49.140 know make it the struggle of of kind of the outsiders the the tribes against the empire you can kind of

00:38:55.080 push that aspect but we've already seen them strip out the family the strip out the any of the

00:39:00.280 complexity in the religion these are all things that are critical to in the next parts of this

00:39:05.660 uh storyline is there a way to continue this is it dead on arrival i mean this movie did very well

00:39:11.380 at the boxer office so i feel like they're gonna make another one i don't think there's any way they

00:39:15.400 have the self-restraint to recognize that they've kind of hung themselves narratively is there anywhere

00:39:20.040 this can go yeah i mean the so the problem the if you think of the the problem that they had with

00:39:25.720 the show of the game of thrones that they couldn't really get a cathartic ending in in june it only

00:39:32.120 ever gets more reactionary and more right wing as they go in i mean the next book's literally called

00:39:36.820 june messiah and it's hard to wire that up like there's going to be a crossing point where western

00:39:43.700 progressives realize hey wait a moment this isn't actually you bring down the empire it doesn't

00:39:48.860 actually mean we're heading into uh like race communism or star trek world there's actually

00:39:55.120 a legitimate religious fundamentalist movement here and it's going to kill us if we don't go

00:40:02.960 along with it and we're like that's that so there's not really a progressive future unless

00:40:07.700 they just completely betray the source material um as of the as they have done on other things

00:40:14.780 but that then you get you're going to slide into the the sort of the cultural things which tore apart

00:40:21.760 the star wars fan and the the talking one with the amazon show which was another bastardization of the

00:40:28.720 source material and you feel as if they've painted themselves in the corner um on how to get out this and

00:40:36.940 it seems like somehow it's going to be shani who is somehow going to carry the the torch of

00:40:44.560 progressivism as galactic jihad sets the the galaxy aflame and billions of people die or something but

00:40:51.420 i yeah i don't know i guess we'll have to see yeah you definitely feel like dune messiah is going to

00:40:57.740 turn into a battle between her and paul right like that's got to be the the way that they're going to

00:41:02.540 approach that he completely embraces his galactic jihad and she stays true to the i don't know

00:41:08.840 atheist tribal leaders i guess i don't it's a very strange i i don't i don't understand it i hear

00:41:15.440 there's also supposed to be a benny jeseret uh show that's going to come out uh which you know

00:41:21.600 makes sense in some ways there's a lot of extra stories to tell there but also you can see that

00:41:26.380 the the focus is let's get this thing as female-centric as possible right away though to be fair i think to

00:41:32.780 some extent that was always true of dune especially the later novels in uh that that frank herbert wrote

00:41:38.840 uh basically are novels about uh about the benny jeseret not about you know even the continuation

00:41:45.060 of the atreides family at some point yeah i mean even even in the the butlerian jihad um when that so

00:41:52.720 that's in the era um the first book when humanity is is literally enslaved there's only like three

00:41:59.780 planets left or something there they are humanity is right on the edge of extinction at the hands of

00:42:06.360 the machines and then there's a what there's a couple of women this the benny jeseret don't

00:42:13.020 actually exist yet this is how they kind of come along um and there's a couple of women with psychic

00:42:19.600 powers realize that the the you can't beat the ai and the robots with weapons they've got too much

00:42:26.800 firepower you can't hit them like that but what it is is that the a lot of these kind of tech

00:42:33.360 bro transhumanists from from more or less our age have got their brains in these come in these robot

00:42:40.240 suits and they live forever and the these women kind of figure out that if they concentrate energy

00:42:46.820 they can squish their brains and kill them that way inside their suits so this becomes a game changer

00:42:52.120 and they just don't stop they they they clean they utterly purge the galaxy of the eye so and and this is

00:42:59.860 the this is what becomes the benny jeseret sisterhood so i'm actually fine i'm actually fine with the focus

00:43:06.920 on that because because the rules are kind of set i'm fine with the fact that men make better mentats

00:43:15.200 than and they just can't have any kind of powers uh as the benny jeseret sisterhood it's when they start

00:43:21.240 mixing all of that up that it all turns into this kind of gray group i mean you know back in the real

00:43:27.960 world progressives are going to have an issue with that because they actually find it difficult to define

00:43:33.340 what a woman even is that so there's a clear there's a clear difference uh there's lines that you can't

00:43:39.560 cross which are concrete and absolute in frank herbert which uh real world progressives don't even have

00:43:46.220 that to fall back on so they may find that it's too it's too female centric it's too cis centric or

00:43:52.300 something they'll find something to mourn about if they even if you did have even if they were trying

00:43:57.680 to kind of think well let's have a really you know epic sci-fi it'll be all female and everything

00:44:03.120 you could actually pull that off but that it's like it's not going to go down well with the people

00:44:08.940 that they're directing it at yeah again it feels like they've stripped out all of the elements that

00:44:14.320 make the characters distinct and so therefore like you said eventually it all just has to collapse

00:44:19.280 back into the gray goo you can't actually communicate you know a female even an actually

00:44:24.600 strong female like cheney is in the book because well she's still too feminine at the end of the day

00:44:29.260 she's still a mother she still has the impulses of a wife she has the impulses of a mother she still

00:44:34.160 takes on those roles and we just can't depict those in any way there's just no way that we're allowing

00:44:39.440 a young you know starlet that is now getting all these roles to be portrayed as anything other than

00:44:46.720 the master of her own destiny rebelling against every kind of you know stability any kind any kind

00:44:52.960 of system around her that's just the only way that they know how to write any of this and so you you

00:44:58.660 can't explore even the more feminine aspects of the benijezer because those are dangerous in

00:45:04.380 dangerous in and of themselves simply acknowledging that they exist and that this is a role that women

00:45:10.160 play in society in a critical role i mean you know it's it's not super subtle but it is it is

00:45:16.560 interesting that frank humber just directly says oh well women are the are the actual selectors of

00:45:22.060 breed breeding they are the selection factor when it comes to what genes spread i'm just going to make

00:45:27.780 that the entire theme of the benijezer i'm just going to build that as to be you know their entire

00:45:31.740 identity is what's what's the job of the female centered uh group well their job is literally to select

00:45:38.320 who gets to breed and what that ends up creating yeah it's one of the another aspect which was

00:45:45.100 played down is the sort of planning um and a deterministic view of history there that this

00:45:52.780 is also a dialed right back of prophecies and destinies and under history just sort of the

00:45:59.300 spenglarian sort of thing where you you can't actually you it's limited and and and whether you

00:46:06.820 can change history or whether it is destiny is up for grabs that that is sort of attention point in

00:46:13.200 there but all of these things of course that has for everybody especially for women for minorities

00:46:18.660 for everybody that has to be open-ended you will you will have complete freedom um and nothing will

00:46:25.400 nothing will be written as they say in in lawrence of arabia uh which which has obviously got some

00:46:31.320 similarities with june yeah again that's the whole point of paul is the as the quiz at satirac and

00:46:37.260 that's also how he fails in the later novels he refuses to embrace his destiny to break humans out

00:46:44.560 of this almost spenglarian cycle right that's the the stiltifying uh imperial setting the way that

00:46:51.940 everything is locked in uh because they have to avoid the development of of computers or anything else

00:46:58.100 that all the things that humanity has to be because it doesn't have access to these machines that it

00:47:02.800 can't develop technologically in specific directions those all lock him into a particular type of life

00:47:10.060 particular way of being and that's part of the story is that paul uh you know he's supposed to just

00:47:16.060 be this perfect weapon of the benny jeseret but he actually breaks out of that because he's he's born

00:47:21.740 when he's not supposed to be he's male when he's supposed to be female and and he reaches a level of

00:47:26.960 understanding that they they don't have but he also ends up rejecting the golden path he ends up

00:47:31.580 rejecting the the path that will actually free humanity from this future and his son leto ends up

00:47:38.100 having to be the one that embraces it and that's where you get one of the more interesting books in

00:47:41.560 the series i think which is god emperor of dune and i don't think they can ever make that book for a lot

00:47:46.340 of reasons uh but uh but one of the reasons is again the themes like you have to re-savage as a

00:47:53.460 people to survive right that's one of the themes of that book is you can become too uh civilized you can

00:47:59.980 lose your ability to you know to protect yourself and perpetuate yourself and again if that doesn't

00:48:05.880 feed into the condition the west is in right now then i don't know what does yeah i mean i would

00:48:11.880 like to i would like to see some videos by progressives where they weren't i think i think

00:48:17.100 one of the issues with dune in general when it comes out like this is i actually doubt many of them

00:48:21.860 probably read the books and they'll go what what are they could the media literacy and all this kind

00:48:27.760 of thing and and they'll be looking for gotchas so they in in a kind of progressive uh the the culture

00:48:34.520 war thing they they will see people on right wing twitter making memes about zendaya and that saying

00:48:43.080 she's not particularly nice to look at and they will take the bait on these kinds of things and and

00:48:48.420 this is this is this is kind of what i wanted to avoid because i do think it's kind of it's missing

00:48:55.000 a lot of interest and aspects to dune what i would like to see would be video essays addressing head-on

00:49:02.140 the fact that they're staring thousands of years in the future and the high technology sort of society

00:49:09.340 is dust it's long gone the future belongs that the far future belongs to new feudalism and

00:49:18.100 religious zealots that that's what i'd like to see them address yeah no absolutely that would

00:49:24.440 if they were actually interested in a dialogue if they were really engaging in the exploration of

00:49:30.120 ideas that's exactly where you would go because why the whole point of this book is to is to show

00:49:35.600 like you said the limitations of mankind and precisely because their own worldview their own

00:49:44.380 philosophy made that happen for what there was a one um interesting video essayist was comparing

00:49:51.160 that i watched it was comparing the dune and star trek which is you know it's it's the opposites

00:49:56.640 but if you take that replicator thing they have on star trek where you can just like the computer will

00:50:04.080 create you the best glass of wine in the world the best steak all of this there's there's no constraints

00:50:10.760 and so this this fellow was pointing out like do you really think and then picard's somebody asks

00:50:16.560 picard like what what is it that you do like what is it and he said oh it's self-improvement that's

00:50:22.180 what it's all about and in actual fact he wouldn't you would get the wall-y scenario where everybody's

00:50:27.900 just like gigantically obese sort of floating around on chairs and and all of this kind of thing

00:50:34.600 but yet that that that will be sort of the progressive dream coming to fruition and it's

00:50:40.820 going to lead to complete civilizational collapse or as where kind of dune begins a little bit with

00:50:47.620 just the machines taking over entirely and nearly taking over humanity so either way they have to deal

00:50:53.580 with the problem that their own philosophical world world picture is going to make that happen in the

00:51:01.340 long term whether they want it or not yeah you know stephen colbert is obviously like just a sad clown

00:51:09.340 uh in a lot of ways uh but he recently said uh he was doing some interview and he's like yeah i'm ready

00:51:16.300 for the ai to take over i'm ready to be ruled by the robots we're no good at this anymore i i'm willing

00:51:21.600 to hand that over and all i could think about is like man there is just nothing new under the sun man

00:51:28.080 their their human nature is so predictable it's terrifying the fact that this just bug man would

00:51:35.280 the the total last man willing to to give the very last bit of his will over to this you know

00:51:42.420 artificially managed existence because he simply finds it impossible to speak or struggle against

00:51:50.420 you know half of his country who disagrees with him politically it just oh man it's gross and it's

00:51:57.640 it's sad but it's also just uh it tells you that humanity has always been this week i guess and

00:52:03.460 there's there it whether it's duskoyevsky or or herbert or or stephen colbert you can you kind of

00:52:10.760 just rise up again and what comes out on the other side of that is religious the remnants who survive

00:52:16.920 are fighting with knives and the religious zealots yep yeah the future whether they like it or not the

00:52:23.620 future belongs to those that have that will uh and you can call it stupid and you can call it weak and

00:52:27.900 you can call it you know backward or whatever but uh you know that that that's what actually makes it

00:52:33.760 through at the other side yeah and they they actually bring it into being they they relish the thought of

00:52:40.000 it all but uh yeah it's it is a cycle it is a it is a grand tragedy and a bit of a comical farce to be

00:52:46.980 honest yeah i guess that's why uh the guys like us who are who are big spangler fans are never known

00:52:54.200 for our white pills i guess there's a there's a kind of there's a kind of catharsis in in like in

00:53:01.280 knowing in seeing like what they're doing and how they're bringing about these catastrophic scenarios

00:53:07.080 and they do it with such hubris and arrogance as well not not understanding not understanding like

00:53:13.600 the biggest hollywood blockbuster of the year leaving aside the other quibbles and whatnot but

00:53:20.360 it's still there like this is your future your future is like a morbidly obese floating baron

00:53:27.940 people fighting with knives and and they're telling you specifically like you did this you you're gonna

00:53:35.580 bring this on yourselves but uh yeah we're in clown land the the it's for them it's the equivalent of

00:53:42.900 being deep deep in winter for a modern liberal perspective yeah absolutely all right guys well

00:53:49.880 like i said the movie isn't terrible it it is probably better than most of the things that you

00:53:55.300 would see in a theater so if you want the actual review i would say okay you know again if i had never

00:54:01.600 read the books i would have probably enjoyed it with no problems uh having read them i enjoyed it

00:54:08.200 somewhat uh so you know if that's worth you you go into the movie theater then i i really don't think

00:54:13.580 it's a terrible movie uh but you know as we've gone on at length i think it does it does have some

00:54:18.500 serious shortcomings especially if you're a fan of the book uh we've got a number of a number of

00:54:25.080 questions from the people here morgoth so before we pivot over to that can you let everybody know

00:54:29.260 where to find your excellent videos and essays and morgoth's review on sub stack uh morgoth's review

00:54:35.660 on uh youtube uh i haven't had a video up for a few weeks but uh my sub stack is is really active

00:54:42.700 as one or two articles go up a week and sometimes i do little podcasts on there and things so yeah

00:54:49.300 sub stack's my main platform yeah you and you and dave have become more sub stackers now and it's like

00:54:54.560 man i i yeah i i joined this thing to listen to you guys you know talk to me come on you're killing

00:54:59.720 me here gotta go go and read these things now but i know a lot of times you can't even get half your

00:55:04.620 stuff on youtube so i understand let's see here seneca says all i know about dune is warhammer 40k

00:55:13.140 but it's sitting on my shelf and must read list so i hope to read it soon yeah so certainly uh worth

00:55:18.760 reading but if you are familiar with 40k then you will recognize a lot of where those things came

00:55:24.420 from once you've read dune uh cooper weirder says would you guys say that dune is star wars but for

00:55:32.160 adults or just a more realistic take is dune an accidentally based thing well the dune came out

00:55:38.380 before star wars so it influences star wars not the other way around which i think a lot of people

00:55:43.440 don't realize and herbert certainly you know was a was a hippie to some degree like he's always talking

00:55:50.800 about how it's really a book about ecology which is something we didn't get into but is an interesting

00:55:54.720 aspect uh you know contrast between like the harkonnens and the and the fremen and others uh that

00:56:00.300 that's certainly a big part of it uh so there's certainly a a leftist reading of dune uh you know it is

00:56:07.740 ultimately uh dances with wolves type tale uh but uh you know obviously there are also much deeper

00:56:13.780 by exploring things that you're not really allowed to explore anymore he still finds some very base things

00:56:19.500 to talk about yeah i mean you you can actually watch i mean as a as an englishman in england

00:56:25.820 in 2024 i've actually got some sympathy with the with the indian tribes and dancers of the world

00:56:31.600 you you can watch dancers with wolves as being quite quite reactionary

00:56:35.920 it's true all right creeper weirdo says uh so the stream is about how the director is a douche yeah

00:56:43.520 like again i don't know a whole lot about him i mean i liked uh blade runner 2049 uh so

00:56:49.240 um you know i've liked at least two of his movies uh that and dune part one uh but i don't really

00:56:55.340 know much about him as a person

00:56:56.560 super weirdo says and uh game and now movie is oran branching out well you know i try to avoid doing

00:57:05.580 constant news of the gate news of the day stuff guys i mean i could talk about the state of the

00:57:10.000 union address yesterday but who cares right who cares about biden state of the union at this point

00:57:15.920 it's just this is a much more interesting thing to talk about and i was just gonna i was just gonna

00:57:22.120 say it quickly as well i did think christopher walken was terribly miscast i really like christopher

00:57:27.660 walken i've i've i can always watch him on screen but i just expect you always get this sense that

00:57:34.700 he's laughing or being ironic or something like i expected him to sort of jump up and start dancing

00:57:39.680 or something um and i thought i love christopher walken but he this isn't this is he's not an

00:57:45.640 emperor he's he's like an aging gangster or something but he's he's not an emperor yeah i

00:57:51.580 agree with the miscasting and the fact that they did not really um they didn't explore the padish

00:57:58.460 emperor at all was a problem to try to communicate any of that like i think there is a way you could

00:58:03.760 play him as kind of that gangster-esque like i had to eliminate my rivals i knew that the you know

00:58:09.420 that the atreides were a danger to myself like you probably could have got him to play that but he was

00:58:14.820 really just like a broken man who was scared from the very beginning and that's just not christopher

00:58:19.260 walken at all it just it communicated very poorly yeah uh he also says the thing you like is uh woke

00:58:26.420 leftist essay yep for sure all right so uh charlemagne says i recommend uh i recommend that listeners watch

00:58:33.340 the dune 1984 alternative edition redux on youtube it's a cut of the david lynch dune film that is far

00:58:39.300 better than the theatrical cut seriously go watch it interesting yeah i've never seen that

00:58:43.420 we didn't get very deep into it but how do you feel this compares to the david lynch film and are you

00:58:49.360 familiar with the sci-fi miniseries at all um i watched one of the early the dune messiah uh sci-fi

00:58:57.980 miniseries in the early 2000s i i love i love the the david lynch dune i think i did actually watch

00:59:04.600 the one charlemagne's talking about uh it was recommended to me and i think i watched it one night

00:59:08.960 but i'd have to watch it again but yeah yeah i do i do like that i know it's it's got a bit of 80s

00:59:14.720 cringe to it and you you get like the the toto soundtrack and stings in it but it has it has a kind

00:59:22.060 of lightness of touch and it has a kind of um it has something very 80s vibe which probably i don't

00:59:29.080 want to be all nostalgic because i get accused of that a lot but in in a way that the new one just

00:59:35.560 doesn't the new one's super serious it's very high tech it's beautiful to look at but it's just

00:59:42.540 a bit like a bit like the empire itself it's just lacking soul and spirit um and i'll miss the the

00:59:49.520 80s version even though like special effects of age terribly it's got some cringe dialogue

00:59:55.320 um it's i just feel like it's it's a bit more of an enjoyable watch and i will say as well because of

01:00:01.900 the the way that david lynch directs where a lot of it is dream sequences and sort of flights of

01:00:09.660 consciousness he actually does the religious aspects and the more esoteric stuff very well it really

01:00:16.420 works where you see paul's consciousness going through space and time alias there's a genuinely

01:00:22.780 creepy little girl um yeah and he's also he's also very comfortable with violence which so he can bring

01:00:31.260 some of the violence and go out uh very well so yeah i like that one yeah i so i feel like the david

01:00:38.400 lynch movie is its own thing like he understood that he just didn't have time to tell the whole story

01:00:43.860 he was not going to be able to capture every bit of it and so he just went ahead and made the best

01:00:48.580 movie he could that referenced the material even though it changed significant things it's saying

01:00:53.820 change and you know obviously it's leaving out a lot of themes in certain parts he made it enough of

01:00:58.200 his own to where it didn't feel like it was a bastardization of the book because it was really

01:01:04.800 doing its own thing in a separate way the problem with this movie i think is that it kind of splits the

01:01:10.380 difference the the miniseries the sci-fi miniseries suffers a lot obviously it's a it's a low budget

01:01:15.780 thing it's a sci-fi miniseries uh the acting and and the special effects are relatively terrible in

01:01:22.100 many scenarios however the thing that the miniseries has going for it is it's long it's got i think seven

01:01:29.600 or eight episodes in the in the first miniseries and then the children of dune one is another six or

01:01:34.860 seven or something like that it collapses dune messiah and children of dune into into one and because it

01:01:40.100 has the time you actually get the feeling that you can actually feel the build-up of the religious

01:01:44.760 fervor paul and cheney have a family and like there's time for all of this to happen and so it

01:01:50.540 follows the the books i think fall more closely and it faithfully recreates more of the themes of the

01:01:56.640 book than either of these movies do and i think the the the velenuve films just fall in this awkward

01:02:03.240 middle ground they they don't become their own thing uh and you know just kind of shortened up and doing

01:02:07.500 their own thing the way that uh finchers does but they also try to faithfully recreate parts of the

01:02:13.360 book but they don't have the time and they're frankly unable to communicate certain aspects of

01:02:18.440 the book that are now culturally unacceptable and so they don't do as good a job as the miniseries does

01:02:23.120 so it's just in this weird place where it can never successfully be its own thing but it also

01:02:28.140 can't successfully communicate what the book was trying to do either

01:02:31.060 let's see here uh hairlock sholmes says which of the dune books are worth reading and which ones

01:02:39.420 would you recommend skipping uh so for the original uh obviously the original dune trilogy the the dune

01:02:46.280 children of dune or dune dune messiah and children of doom absolutely must read i also would put god

01:02:53.680 emperor of dune in there as a must read because like i said it's a very interesting book it really gets to

01:02:58.860 that theme of what happens to a civilization but when it becomes too soft it really pays out kind

01:03:04.660 of the leto uh taking the golden path it's very weird it's a very strange book that's certainly where

01:03:10.080 frank herbert steps into the far weirder books and then um chapter house dune and what's the last one

01:03:16.740 that he wrote i'm trying to remember uh the two after dune uh god emperor of dune chapter house dune

01:03:25.960 and another one but anyway those two are definitely very strange like uh they they discover like space

01:03:30.980 jews and uh they discover like uh sex cultists and all kinds of stuff it's definitely you got to be a

01:03:38.760 frank herbert fan to enjoy those for sure uh i read them all because i've read pretty much all of the dune

01:03:44.160 books and then when you go to the the ones that his son started writing uh with his co-author i think

01:03:50.900 that um all of the original house ones are worth reading for sure the butlerian jihad one is worth

01:03:56.660 reading uh and then from there they really start cranking out the mill of books they really start

01:04:02.020 getting uh you know you can tell it's just like well we got to write a book every year and they you

01:04:06.920 know then you really have to be a fan of the dune universe because they start falling off in quality

01:04:10.740 but uh yeah i don't know if you have any any opinions there no i would agree i haven't read as many

01:04:16.680 of the books as you have i would say stick to the main canon uh yeah yeah uh and then we have uh

01:04:24.120 sergeant hodel which says morgoth do you recommend the prequel books if so should the people prequels

01:04:29.480 be read first i guess we kind of just answered that but outside of the butlerian jihad are there

01:04:34.600 any of the other people books that you enjoyed no i read the first book of the butlerian jihad last

01:04:40.080 year and you could you could clear the general rule of thumb is that the further away you go from frank

01:04:46.180 kerbert himself the worst things are going to get and i wanted to read and sort of study the

01:04:51.020 butlerian jihad a bit for a video and because of the sort of the overlap with robots and technology

01:04:57.420 and whatnot um but but i would read that first one but the writing isn't going to be good and the plot

01:05:03.800 lines are really clunky um but there's there's some good stuff in there but it's it's nowhere near as

01:05:09.700 good as the main canon yeah i would agree i think the first four books of the main canon are must reads

01:05:15.240 five and six or you know if you really like frank herbert they're they're still kind of fun even

01:05:19.800 though they're way out there and then the uh and then the prequels the the original trilogy of the

01:05:26.520 houses the harkonnen the atreides and the other one uh pretty pretty solid uh but yeah once you start

01:05:33.840 getting into the the sun's uh prequel stuff you you really got to enjoy it because it gets some of

01:05:39.200 it gets pretty dumb so um simpler says but larry and jihad now uh habib in sahala yes thank you

01:05:46.720 and then a creepy reader says last one 2049 is overrated and unworthy i like the movie uh i was

01:05:52.560 surprised that i like the movie when people told me that blade runner was going to have a sequel i was

01:05:55.700 like well that's going to be terrible i know there are a lot of people who who detract it but i also

01:06:00.000 know it's got a following in our spheres for a reason i think it was well done it's it it's its own

01:06:05.200 thing it explores its own themes uh it doesn't turn uh harrison ford's character into sad divorce dad

01:06:11.360 uh like all the other uh kind of sequels of that so i thought it was good though i understand if people

01:06:17.020 didn't like it i think the deville move is is very good with aesthetics and and world building

01:06:24.520 and a little bit weaker on character development but in blade runner 2049 it's kind of plays into that

01:06:32.080 because it is everybody is kind of a hollowed out husk of a character so i i quite enjoyed it uh

01:06:38.720 and yeah i understand why people in in our scene sympathize with him as well sadly um do it so in a way

01:06:47.200 i like i like films i do actually touch on what's like what's going on in the zeitgeist i mean one of the

01:06:54.160 things about david lynch's dune is that it it really doesn't it is just a sort of standalone pop culture fest

01:07:01.120 uh but back then things weren't as hyper politicized and uh as they are now absolutely

01:07:07.600 all right guys gonna go ahead and wrap this up make sure that you check out all of morgoth's

01:07:13.400 excellent work it's always a great time talking to him and all of his work is fantastic so you should

01:07:18.640 definitely be reading and watching everything he puts out of course if it's if it's your first time

01:07:23.500 on this channel make sure that you go ahead and subscribe to the youtube channel make sure that

01:07:27.540 you go ahead and click the bell notifications all that stuff so that you can catch these streams when

01:07:32.540 they go live and if you'd like to get these broadcasts as podcasts make sure that you go ahead

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01:07:41.380 rating or review it really helps with the algorithm and if you would like to go ahead and pre-order the

01:07:46.860 total state it comes out on may 7th you can do that on amazon books a million barnes and noble all that

01:07:52.820 stuff guys make sure to check that out thanks for coming uh or thanks for watching and as always

01:07:58.100 i'll talk to you next time

The Auron MacIntyre Show - March 08, 2024

The Tragedy of 'Dune： Part 2' ｜ Guest： Morgoth ｜ 3⧸8⧸24

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