The Auron MacIntyre Show - The Unprotected Class ｜ Guest： Jeremy Carl ｜ 4⧸24⧸24

00:00:00.260 What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue?

00:00:04.120 A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door.

00:00:10.860 A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool.

00:00:15.320 Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered.

00:00:19.460 Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders.

00:00:24.340 Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply.

00:00:27.020 Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver.

00:00:30.300 Hey everybody, how's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:34.080 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:38.880 So Jeremy Carl is a senior fellow over at the Claremont Institute.

00:00:43.360 He was part of the Trump administration. He's been on the show many times.

00:00:47.660 But today I'm having him on because he has written a very important book that I think we need to talk about called The Unprotected Class.

00:00:55.100 Jeremy, thanks for coming on.

00:00:57.040 Thanks so much for having me, Oren.

00:00:58.460 Yeah, I know we've kind of hinted at this book in kind of our past conversations.

00:01:04.700 You've been working on it for a long time.

00:01:07.740 But I think it's really important to dedicate an episode to this because it's the kind of book that says something that I think most people probably look around and could recognize if they're honest with themselves.

00:01:18.520 But no one is comfortable having a discussion about.

00:01:22.140 And so while it's something that I think most people would rather not engage with, it's becoming more and more critical.

00:01:30.220 And the fact that you went through and took the time and had the courage, frankly, to go ahead and put something like this together for people to take a look at and hear a calm, reasoned argument for why this is an issue and what can be done about it, I think is really important.

00:01:46.040 Yeah, well, thanks, Oren.

00:01:48.500 And we were just talking a little bit before the stream about theology and to kind of put it in religious terms.

00:01:54.180 I kind of in going through doing this book, it was a little bit like Jonah, you know, and God says, go to Nineveh and preach.

00:02:01.780 And you're just like, you know, Nineveh, that's like a pretty powerful place.

00:02:05.460 I'm not really sure I really want to go there and bother.

00:02:07.900 And, you know, that he runs away, of course, and the fish swallows him and he spit back up.

00:02:12.640 And the second time God tells him, he's like, well, yeah, OK, fine, I'll go to Nineveh.

00:02:16.700 I had a little bit of experience where I've been thinking about this issue for years.

00:02:20.820 I've kind of written around the edges of it.

00:02:23.200 And God told me to go to Nineveh.

00:02:27.100 And instead, I moved to Montana and I went into the Trump administration and I did all sorts of things to kind of avoid writing this.

00:02:34.500 But then, you know, at a certain point, you know, when I was in the Trump administration, a lot of my writings on this type of stuff attracted more attention from our enemies.

00:02:42.920 And I just realized, you know, there's really no avoiding it.

00:02:45.620 It's a really important issue.

00:02:47.020 And I'm just nobody else is writing this book.

00:02:48.940 And so I'm going to.

00:02:50.880 Absolutely.

00:02:51.220 Well, guys, we're going to dive into the substance of the book.

00:02:54.020 I want to take us through the history, look at some of Jeremy's possible solutions.

00:02:58.340 But before we get into all of that, let me tell you a little bit about ISI.

00:03:02.640 Universities today aren't just neglecting real education.

00:03:06.060 They're actively undermining it.

00:03:07.420 And we can't let them get away with it.

00:03:09.080 America was made for an educated and engaged citizenry.

00:03:12.620 The Intercollegiate Studies Institute is here to help.

00:03:15.440 ISI offers programs and opportunities for conservative students across the country.

00:03:20.620 ISI understands that conservatives and right of center students feel isolated on college campuses and that you're often fighting for your own reputation, dignity, and future.

00:03:30.120 Through ISI, you can learn about what Russell Kirk called the permanent things, the philosophical and political teachings that shaped and made Western civilization great.

00:03:39.720 ISI offers many opportunities to jumpstart your career.

00:03:42.820 They have fellowships at some of the nation's top conservative publications like National Review, the American Conservative, and the College Thinker.

00:03:49.900 If you're a graduate student, ISI offers funding opportunities to sponsor the next great generation of college professors.

00:03:55.340 Through ISI, you can work with conservative thinkers who are making a difference.

00:03:59.820 Thinkers like Chris Ruffo, who currently has an ISI researcher helping him with his book.

00:04:04.840 But perhaps most importantly, ISI offers college students a community of people that can help them grow.

00:04:10.260 If you're a college student, ISI can help you start a student organization or student newspaper or meet other like-minded students at their various conferences and events.

00:04:19.740 ISI is here to educate the next generation of great Americans.

00:04:22.760 To learn more, go to ISI.org.

00:04:26.220 That's ISI.org.

00:04:29.140 All right, Jeremy.

00:04:30.320 So the subtitle of your book, The Unprotected Class, is How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart.

00:04:38.960 Now, that phrase just five years ago, if uttered by, I think, a mainstream political commentator, would have ended their career.

00:04:47.200 It would have been salacious news.

00:04:49.600 It would have created a firestorm in the media.

00:04:53.380 This would have been something that's completely unsayable in any kind of company, especially a polite company.

00:04:59.420 And times seem to have changed through the efforts, I think, of several commentators who deserve credit, like Tucker Carlson and Matt Walsh and Charlie Kirk and many other mainstream people who maybe often aren't given credit for this by people who consider themselves more dissident, right?

00:05:20.220 Or online, right?

00:05:21.140 Or, you know, somewhere.

00:05:22.940 This is a phrase that has now entered, I think, at least to some extent, the popular consciousness.

00:05:28.560 But still, when you talk to a lot of conservatives, especially older conservatives, people who are more of a Rush Limbaugh generation style conservative, this still rings hollow to them.

00:05:40.880 It feels like a lot of times you try to have this conversation and be like, this just doesn't happen, that you're overblowing this.

00:05:47.300 This sounds like something that a villain would say in a TV show from the 90s.

00:05:51.960 And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that generational divide and how this has become something that some people are willing to address, but it's still something that is many conservatives see as just a non-issue or something they're unwilling to engage with.

00:06:10.100 Well, Oren, you really hit on it.

00:06:11.200 And it's sort of funny, when I was on Charlie Kirk's show a week or so ago, he actually brought this very thing up.

00:06:17.580 And he said sort of, you know, when I talk with some of my older donors and such about this, they're like, oh, you know, you can't talk about this.

00:06:23.100 It's racist or whatever.

00:06:24.400 Whereas when I talk to younger people, and Charlie probably talks to more young people than just about any conservative commentator out there, they're like, oh, yeah, of course, you know, this is going on.

00:06:33.600 So I think there's a couple things going on there, Oren.

00:06:35.760 I mean, one of them is just the difference in experience, right?

00:06:38.660 I mean, if you're old enough, you grew up in a time where our racial relations were very different.

00:06:45.720 You also, depending on how old you were, lived through the civil rights movement and saw some of the things where America had sort of fallen short of its founding ideas before that.

00:06:56.420 So, you know, you're kind of just coming at everything with a different perspective.

00:07:01.240 And I also think you're kind of used to, if you're older, an environment in which the debate is just much more cut off.

00:07:08.180 I mean, it's much more there.

00:07:09.240 These guardrails, you can't go outside the guardrails.

00:07:12.880 And I think the younger people are kind of used to a freer discussion.

00:07:18.440 And it's kind of funny, you know, when I when I've sort of gone on more dissident type programs to kind of discuss this.

00:07:25.400 Right. It's like I'm kind of defending myself for, you know, having sold out or whatever.

00:07:30.420 Right. Because they want to from their perspective, it's even more dire.

00:07:34.980 The problem, it's even more hardcore.

00:07:36.880 So, you know, what I've tried to do in this book is to make a case that on an issue that I know is a controversial issue.

00:07:43.680 But I've tried to do it in a very responsible way, not kind of going beyond the facts.

00:07:48.660 I've got almost a thousand references in the book.

00:07:51.660 And I think really it just it's a race.

00:07:54.180 It's a liquid area.

00:07:55.160 The thing for it speaks for itself.

00:07:57.740 And that's really what I've tried to do here.

00:08:00.000 Yeah, I really appreciate that you came at this.

00:08:02.860 It's obviously a very divisive issue for a lot of people, but you came at this from a very, you know, it's not a polemic.

00:08:11.320 It's not a flamethrower.

00:08:12.660 You know, this is this is you laying out evidence in a pretty calm way, which is some makes something you can hand to somebody who otherwise probably would not engage with the subject.

00:08:22.920 And they're not going to open this up and find a screed about all the injustice that that's occurring, even though the facts are just laid out there.

00:08:30.080 Or it's interesting because in many ways, it feels like, you know, you're you're just kind of picking up free money off the ground.

00:08:36.500 Like you're just picking up, you know, obvious, obvious research.

00:08:39.500 Like this is just an obvious fact.

00:08:41.120 I'm just laying out the details here anyway.

00:08:43.360 But then you realize the reason all of this was laying on the ground is no one wanted to touch it.

00:08:47.360 Like that's why it's so easy to collect.

00:08:49.200 Right.

00:08:49.680 No, I think you're right.

00:08:50.440 And I think maybe the I haven't said this before on a podcast, but honestly, maybe if I were more brilliant, I wouldn't have written this book because I could just, you know,

00:08:59.080 take some really hard esoteric thing and say something brilliant about it.

00:09:02.960 I mean, I think I'm looking forward to reading your book or and I think maybe you've done some version of that.

00:09:07.560 And maybe it's just like I'm not bright enough.

00:09:09.200 So like I'm just like, huh, this shiny thing is like right on the ground.

00:09:13.180 And it seems kind of important.

00:09:14.420 And all I have to do is be brave.

00:09:16.380 You know, I don't need to be like the most, you know, brilliant seven degrees, talk about 15 Greek philosophers and give a powerful critique of Nietzsche versus Rawls, you know, to to kind of explain like what's going on here.

00:09:31.880 It's like, huh, white people are being discriminated against.

00:09:34.500 Maybe we should talk about that.

00:09:35.700 That's like the theoretical background that is necessary here.

00:09:39.980 And so I really was in some senses, as long as I was willing to stick my neck out, picking up free money on this issue.

00:09:48.140 And, you know, I think it's just it is something that we're beginning to to talk about more.

00:09:53.140 And again, you're certainly among those or who's been out there kind of pushing this type of issue to a broader audience.

00:10:00.180 And I think it's it's really great.

00:10:01.580 And I think the dialogue on this and the Overton window is beginning to move.

00:10:05.200 Well, certainly don't sell yourself short.

00:10:07.820 I think you did an excellent job with this is very eloquently put together.

00:10:10.900 So don't, you know, don't don't belittle the effort here for sure.

00:10:14.540 And the and the courage in and of itself is is much better than eloquence.

00:10:18.680 That that that is a far more admirable trait than than any other.

00:10:22.180 So, yeah, so so don't undersell that.

00:10:24.880 But I want to approach some just basic questions here, because I think a lot of people watching this show are going to be familiar with why this is an important topic.

00:10:33.680 This is not the first time they've heard this broach.

00:10:35.960 So you probably don't have to pitch why this is happening.

00:10:38.540 But if they're like me, they've heard a lot of arguments.

00:10:41.800 They've been in basic conversations with people who just brush this off and can't see how it could possibly be an issue.

00:10:48.480 And so I'm going to ask some things that seem rather obvious.

00:10:50.720 But I it's just nice to have them expounded upon in a way that I think the average person can go ahead and take to someone who they're trying to show this to and say, hey, this is an important issue.

00:11:01.440 So I think the first thing that people look at, you know, beyond like, oh, this isn't really happening.

00:11:05.880 You know, the next thing they'll say is, well, how could this possibly happen in a country that is majority white?

00:11:13.580 I mean, come on. 0.92

00:11:14.660 All the people in power are white. 0.60

00:11:17.060 You know, even the people who seem to be pushing this are white in a lot of instances.

00:11:21.860 How could this possibly develop in a nation that is majority the population that is supposed to be oppressed in this scenario?

00:11:30.660 Yeah. And I'd say a few things, and I just actually want to go back a little bit before I do this to something that you said in your last question, which is in terms of the audience for this.

00:11:41.040 I think the most online edgelordy type people, if I can use Internet terminology, will still read this book, even if they're pretty immersed in these issues and learn a lot of things.

00:11:51.680 But I also read it very explicitly for that mainstream audience that that person could go give it to their mom or their dad or their sister or whatever, even their kid who might be more skeptical or like and there's nothing in there that's going to scare them or they'll feel like the argument is irresponsible or, you know, I'm using a bunch of rhetorical flourishes.

00:12:11.680 I'm actually not trying to play the oppression Olympics. You kind of used the term oppressed.

00:12:18.360 I mean, I think there's still a lot of internally very functional things in the white American community. 0.56

00:12:26.760 There's obviously a lot of history that we can point back to and other things like that.

00:12:31.060 I'm not kind of looking to complain to the refs here. I'm sort of trying to rally the troops and say, hey, look, we don't need to put up with being treated in a second class fashion.

00:12:42.540 So as to why this is happening, I honestly I don't have a neat answer.

00:12:47.700 I'll give you a few kind of different things that I think are going on because I think it's it's multifactorial.

00:12:52.400 The first thing I think that we see really going on is to the extent that liberal whites are driving this, and I actually would argue they're the kind of most powerful group.

00:13:03.420 At some level, it's a kind of way of showing their alleged superiority. Right.

00:13:08.880 It's like if you have so much money and so much power that you'll be fine and your kids will be fine, even if you're being discriminated against.

00:13:16.200 That's kind of a flex to use the kind of younger term. Right.

00:13:20.260 Right. And so there's an element of that.

00:13:23.440 There's an element to which those white people kind of see themselves as different and better than other white people.

00:13:29.140 And if you spent time, I mean, I spent many years in Ivy League universities and similar type dynamics.

00:13:35.080 So I'm kind of aware of that type of thinking being out there.

00:13:38.140 I think it's that for understandable historical reasons and other things, white solidarity of any type has always been very frowned upon and stigmatized in American culture.

00:13:51.160 So, you know, right now whites are about 58 percent of the population, but in no sense are they unified, let alone on this issue.

00:13:58.580 Whereas I think to a greater degree, minorities being unified is not stigmatized in this country.

00:14:05.860 And so you're seeing a lot of those loud voices among minority community leadership combining with liberal whites.

00:14:13.160 And that's what's kind of, I think, the primary drivers of this phenomenon.

00:14:17.340 So the other thing that you hear, I think, you know, we'll talk about the evidence here in a second, but I wanted to get these questions out of the way first.

00:14:26.320 I think once you lay out the evidence for a lot of this stuff and you do in quite a bit of detail in the book, once people start seeing this evidence, the next response is almost always, well, maybe it's necessary.

00:14:40.400 You know, maybe this is maybe this is simply what it takes to redress the wrongs that were visited upon minority populations by a majority white population at some time in history.

00:14:53.580 And, you know, if we aren't if we aren't vigilant and we don't keep this in place, then, you know, these things will reemerge.

00:15:01.680 Right. This is always the Joe Biden. He's going to put you all back in chains.

00:15:05.180 Right. Moment on a regular basis.

00:15:07.800 What would you say to those who say, look, like, you know, white young male, he's going to be fine.

00:15:14.120 Don't worry about it. You know, at the end of the day, we have to do this to make sure that we kind of keep a certain level of social cohesion because we can't let these groups get elevated beyond each other.

00:15:26.700 Right. Well, I'd say a few things.

00:15:28.700 I mean, one, Thomas Sowell, who is something of a touchstone for this book, talks about the quest for cosmic justice almost invariably leading to greater injustice.

00:15:36.720 And I think that's absolutely true. Right. So I kind of don't like that type of of thinking about cosmic justice.

00:15:44.520 But but I'd say beyond that, a lot of these things that talk about how everything's so great for white people, to the extent that it was really true anytime in recent history, are kind of working on a lot of outdated information.

00:15:57.160 We're seeing a lot of what the Nobel Prize winning economists at Princeton, Angus Deaton and his wife, Anne Case, called deaths of despair, which I talk about in my book among middle and working class whites of middle aged drugs, suicide, other things.

00:16:13.920 We're seeing a big increase among that in the white population, where their baseline, by the way, was also higher to begin with.

00:16:21.240 And we're not seeing a comparable rise in other populations.

00:16:26.620 Beyond that, a lot of these things that kind of point out, oh, how great it is for white people sort of play a little sleight of hand where they erase in particular Asian Americans.

00:16:37.940 And on pretty much any metric of income, education, health, Asian Americans are doing better than white Americans.

00:16:46.020 And it's really hard to kind of have a white supremacist theory that incorporates that really neatly.

00:16:54.540 I mean, the model minority stuff doesn't really fly for lots of reasons.

00:16:58.080 But I point out it's not even just related to Asian Americans.

00:17:01.260 I talk in the book about any number of groups like Venezuelan Americans or Nigerian Americans of Igbo descent and all sorts of other people who also are kind of doing better on pretty much any metric that you would look than the average white American.

00:17:17.640 And so if you think that there's something systemically racist against these groups going on in our society, it's a little difficult to explain why we'd be seeing the sorts of things that we're seeing.

00:17:28.840 Yeah, I want to go ahead and get into the mechanisms, because obviously, if this is occurring, then it has to be enshrined somewhere in the systems of our government or our wider culture.

00:17:42.240 So I want to get into that, guys.

00:17:43.620 But before we do, let me tell you about your moral duty to go ahead and hire based people through New Founding. 0.99

00:17:49.880 Hey, guys, I need to talk to you about New Founding.

00:17:52.620 Look, we all know that the job market is a disaster right now.

00:17:56.300 So based people can't find good companies to work for and good companies can't find employees to get the work done.

00:18:03.920 And that's why you need access to the New Founding network.

00:18:07.680 New Founding has created a network of high excellence professionals who are seeking to join grounded American businesses.

00:18:15.540 They're individuals, often in elite organizations, who are ready for a team and mission that supports their values instead of working against them.

00:18:24.160 Align companies are already using the network to hire high trust, exceptional individuals who match the culture and mission of their team.

00:18:34.220 You can apply for access to the New Founding Talent network at newfounding.com slash talent.

00:18:41.360 You'll be connected with candidates who will build your business.

00:18:45.100 That's newfounding.com slash talent.

00:18:48.120 Go there now to find your next hire.

00:18:50.040 All right.

00:18:51.980 So obviously the word systemic racism gets thrown around all over the place.

00:18:56.340 We're very familiar with this at this point.

00:18:59.860 And whenever someone gets asked, you know, whenever someone on the left alleges that there's still racism in the country, that the average minority is held down by the system.

00:19:13.780 The first thing a conservative asks is, show me the racist law, right?

00:19:17.680 Like, show me, you know, show me the evidence of where the legal code, where hiring policies, where you are allowed to actively and openly discriminate against, you know, a minority in any of these parts of American life.

00:19:32.160 And I think for a lot of people, if they hear the same thing about, you know, the way anti-white racism, they're going to want to see the same evidence.

00:19:39.860 So what would be some of the mechanisms that you point to in the book that would show people, hey, this is this is something that's actually encoded into our law or this is encoded into the way that we have to do business in the United States that ensures that white people are treated with some kind of disadvantage?

00:19:57.020 Yeah, well, there's there's a few things. And one of them is civil rights law.

00:20:01.880 And this is an area that's been covered by folks like my Clement colleague, Christopher Caldwell and Richard Hanania and Chris Ruffo and some others.

00:20:09.300 And I think that's really important. I actually spent a whole chapter in the book talking about it.

00:20:14.040 I do think sometimes it's actually slightly overstated. This would be a slight degree of departure, I think, of my analysis from some of these other folks.

00:20:22.460 And that I think if you eliminated every single one of those civil rights laws, it would be a necessary precondition to kind of and replacing them or I shouldn't say eliminate, but at least amending them in some fundamental ways.

00:20:36.840 It would be a necessary precondition to kind of fixing the problem, but it's not sufficient. Right.

00:20:43.320 And so you can kind of look at a state like California, which has twice banned affirmative action by popular referendum in the last 20 years in its universities.

00:20:53.420 And yet if you go in these universities, that's kind of ignored.

00:20:58.140 So but civil rights is really important and particularly things like disparate impact.

00:21:01.640 And that may be kind of a phrase that's known to some of your more knowledgeable listeners and viewers.

00:21:08.200 But for those who don't know it, I mean, disparate impact is a element of civil rights law that grows out of the 1971 court decision that I've written about called Riggs versus Duke Power.

00:21:19.360 And it basically to kind of oversimplify, if you're a business and you kind of have a outcome for an employment process, a hiring process that is kind of varies significantly by race, it's said to have a disparate impact on the race affected.

00:21:37.860 And you have to kind of jump through all these hoops to show that there was kind of a business necessity or some other thing that really justified that.

00:21:46.200 And so what, in fact, businesses do because they don't want to wind up in court is they end up discriminating against white people to make sure that they don't have it. 0.50

00:21:55.000 And by the way, the really key part of the Supreme Court ruling is the Supreme Court said in Riggs versus Duke Power, it doesn't matter whether you were intending to discriminate by race or not.

00:22:04.700 And so, in fact, what we just saw literally this week with a chain of convenience stores, I'm just blanking on its name all of a sudden, but they are being sued because they had criminal background checks for their employees.

00:22:18.600 And that because of the different rates of criminal offending by race was seen as racially discriminatory.

00:22:24.640 So that's kind of the level of absurdity that we're talking about that really is baked into the cake.

00:22:30.580 And then before I kind of turn it back to you, I'll kind of point out one of the ways.

00:22:34.240 OK, so that's the theory.

00:22:35.400 You know, how do you see this in practice is on our censuses, on everything else, there is a flight from white.

00:22:43.140 And you see increasingly people doing everything they can to identify themselves officially and legally as something other than white, you know, whether that be that they're 164th Cherokee and cutie Elizabeth Warren jokes here or they're multiracial in some way or whatever.

00:23:02.920 I mean, if they can seize on something other than being white, they are going to do that. 0.95

00:23:08.280 And that is very consistent with the thesis that I'm telling in my book.

00:23:11.780 Yeah, I just wrote a piece that ran into the blaze today about that convenience store chain.

00:23:18.520 But yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:20.960 So for all the additional jokes you get to make there.

00:23:24.460 So like you said, I think civil rights is critical.

00:23:29.420 But I think you're also right to point out that if you repeal it tomorrow, that doesn't mean that there would be a significant change.

00:23:36.380 You know, Curtis Yarvin made the made the point in his recent debate with Chris Rufo that what are you going to do?

00:23:43.120 Make a make a law against, you know, being racist to white people?

00:23:46.600 We have one.

00:23:47.040 It's called the Civil Rights Act.

00:23:48.360 Right.

00:23:48.680 And so that in and of itself is not enough.

00:23:53.240 But people, I think, are more familiar with that, like you said, due to Christopher Caldwell's book and the focus that myself and others have brought to that.

00:24:00.480 What are some other mechanisms that aren't just I mean, they might be connected to civil rights law.

00:24:05.600 But what are some other factors that have significantly changed the dynamics inside, you know, the racial dynamics inside the United States or the increase the salience that that has, you know, that is now has inside different organizations, institutions?

00:24:21.400 Sure.

00:24:22.120 And I think the interesting thing here is some of it is very formal in the ways that we were just talking about.

00:24:27.960 And some of it is very informal.

00:24:29.160 And in fact, one of the things I wrestled with before I decided to really go with the harder core term racism on the front is that of the book is, you know, some of it is discriminatory.

00:24:40.140 Is it per se racist?

00:24:41.980 You know, you can kind of have a debate about it.

00:24:43.880 Right.

00:24:44.260 But there are some things that are kind of racist.

00:24:45.920 There are some things that are functionally discriminatory, but they may not technically have racist intent.

00:24:52.580 There are some things that are just changing about the culture.

00:24:54.880 So I think there's a few things that have driven this.

00:24:56.600 One, the complete demographic revolution we have had in America in the wake of the Hart-Cellar Immigration Bill of 1965.

00:25:06.420 So immigration, I'm not an expert.

00:25:08.300 There's sort of 11 different subject matter chapters from business to Hollywood to academia, et cetera, that I talk about crime in this book.

00:25:18.360 I'm not experts on all of them, but immigration is one where I do feel like I have a fair bit of expertise and I write a lot about it in the book.

00:25:24.920 So very few people kind of really understand the story of American immigration policy.

00:25:30.120 But basically, Hart-Cellar in 1965 is a dramatic departure from anything we've done before in terms of immigration policy.

00:25:38.200 And it leads to a, you know, kind of a replacement, if I can use the provocative word, of the old American demographics with new demographics.

00:25:47.020 And so I think just a change in the numbers has played a role here, but also just things that are harder to quantify.

00:25:55.920 Like in my Hollywood chapter, I talk a lot about even starting in the 1960s, liberal scholars, mind you, who have kind of done the analysis, find that minorities were portrayed more positively than white people on average in Hollywood.

00:26:13.340 Now, of course, this doesn't mean there weren't stereotypes or negative portrayals, but just this is what they find on average.

00:26:19.680 And in fact, this has become such a cliche on Madison Avenue in commercials. 1.00

00:26:26.160 There's actually a Twitter feed that I believe is called White People Are Stupid in Commercials. 1.00

00:26:31.140 I have it in the book, but it's literally just dedicated to the constant refrain in a contemporary commercial of the dumb white guy who is saved by the minority who's wiser, usually a minority female, even better. 0.99

00:26:45.860 Again, this is so prevalent at this point, and it's not due to any law, it's due to a change in culture that, again, you have entire advertising industry blogs and Twitter feeds and whatnot that are kind of devoted to examining this as a phenomenon. 0.77

00:27:02.420 Yeah, when white people are even allowed to exist in an advertisement, I think there's some comedian who made the joke, like, you know, in 20 years, people are going to ask, you know, what apocalypse occurred to wipe all the white people out of advertisements?

00:27:16.820 Right. Yeah. So I think you're right to point out the importance of the cultural shift as well. 0.57

00:27:23.500 And that's a lot harder to nail down because, of course, you don't have official laws and, you know, and things that you can point to and say this act of this date kind of introduces this.

00:27:33.260 But I think it's critical. I mean, there's often a debate among, you know, in many of the circles that I'm in, whether law drives culture or culture drives law.

00:27:40.940 And, of course, the answer is a mix of both, to be sure. But I wonder what you what you think really drove the cultural end of this, because obviously people will look at the 1950s and however you feel about, you know, the shifts that occurred after.

00:27:57.620 They'll say that this is this is a nation in which it seems like it's OK to be white.

00:28:03.420 This is not a problem. This is not something that that that is a moral deficit on your part.

00:28:09.240 But that seems to shift pretty, pretty noticeably as time goes on.

00:28:13.900 And do you think that is something that's downstream from the the immigration, from the from from the the narratives that are told due to the civil rights movement, to the law?

00:28:23.640 Or do you think this is something that is truly organic and has roots in kind of America's consciousness as it shifts into this kind of multiracial existence?

00:28:33.420 We hope you're enjoying your Air Canada flight.

00:28:35.780 Rocky's vacation. Here we come.

00:28:38.540 Whoa, is this economy?

00:28:40.660 Free beer, wine and snacks.

00:28:43.120 Sweet.

00:28:44.200 Fast, free Wi-Fi means I can make dinner reservations before we land.

00:28:48.260 And with live TV, I'm not missing the game.

00:28:51.300 It's kind of like I'm already on vacation.

00:28:54.460 Nice.

00:28:55.740 On behalf of Air Canada, nice travels.

00:28:58.780 Wi-Fi available to Airplane members on EquipFlight. Sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply.

00:29:02.200 CRCanada.com.

00:29:04.040 Yeah, I mean, that's a great question.

00:29:05.380 And it's funny.

00:29:06.040 You just mentioned the phrase, it's OK to be white. 0.86

00:29:08.020 And that was actually the original title I had for the book, which would, to say the least, be a provocative title.

00:29:13.080 But it's actually interesting.

00:29:14.280 I think the whole saga I had around that title actually really illustrates my thesis in that this was a title.

00:29:21.040 And for those of you who are sort of more online who are listening to this may recognize it.

00:29:25.640 I don't know, maybe a decade or so ago, maybe a little less.

00:29:30.120 These signs kind of inspired by 4chan, which is Internet Message Board, began appearing particularly in college towns.

00:29:37.500 And they just said, it's OK to be white.

00:29:39.800 Nothing else.

00:29:40.440 There was no call to action.

00:29:41.560 There was nothing else.

00:29:44.060 And predictably, what ensued was a kind of firestorm and all the diversity people at these universities denouncing them and everybody saying racist and white supremacy.

00:29:56.460 And then folks like Tucker Carlson kind of got in and said, is it not OK to be white?

00:30:02.200 I mean, it's OK to be Asian.

00:30:03.340 It's OK to be black.

00:30:04.300 It's OK to be Hispanic.

00:30:05.640 It should also be OK to be white. 0.95

00:30:07.920 But yet, to even say that was seen as beyond the pale.

00:30:13.380 So anyway, I got that title by my editorial team.

00:30:16.560 But ultimately, the sales team was like, I can't sell that title at the Costco, right?

00:30:21.100 To be fair, a guy in Britain has been arrested for making stickers with that.

00:30:24.720 So your book might have actually been illegal internationally.

00:30:27.580 Right.

00:30:27.840 And to me, nothing could illustrate sort of better the actual reality of where we are, that this would be seen as some sort of outrageous provocation, right?

00:30:42.260 So there is that that's going on there.

00:30:45.380 I think demographics, again, play a huge role, the changing demographics in Hartzeller.

00:30:50.540 And again, I mean, I'm kind of just not a fan of diversity generally.

00:30:53.460 And I want to say this very carefully so that it's not misconstrued.

00:30:55.980 It does not mean that I am not a fan of diverse groups of Americans, right?

00:31:01.800 Like most people who've – I mean, I live in Montana now, but I've lived in very, very diverse areas.

00:31:07.660 I lived in the Bay Area for many years, San Francisco Bay Area.

00:31:10.200 I mean, I have lots of diverse groups of friends, colleagues, et cetera.

00:31:13.600 The problem is that when you have diversity in any society in excess, that often leads to a lot of social conflict.

00:31:21.840 It just does.

00:31:22.480 I mean, this is a reality of diversity.

00:31:24.660 It's not kind of incumbent upon any particular group in America.

00:31:30.240 And so what happens is you get these groups.

00:31:32.360 They're coming in.

00:31:33.680 They're saying, wow, you know, I don't really seem to be – my ancestors don't really seem to be much of a part of this American story, for example, right?

00:31:41.320 Like the founders at the founding, as best we could tell, the U.S. citizen population wasn't just overwhelmingly white.

00:31:48.180 It was about 85% British, right?

00:31:51.180 I'm sorry.

00:31:51.880 I've seen Hamilton.

00:31:53.220 That can't be true.

00:31:54.280 Well, so I talk about Hamilton in the book, right?

00:31:56.900 And this is actually fascinating.

00:31:58.320 So I'll get to that in just a second.

00:32:00.220 But they understandably – and again, this is not because they're bad people or evil people or they are malicious.

00:32:06.520 They're like, you know, hey, I want to see, you know, my story told there, my ancestor's story.

00:32:12.560 And so what do I need to do to do that?

00:32:14.300 I need to delegitimize the earlier story.

00:32:17.220 I need to tear down those statues.

00:32:18.980 I need to say that it was systemically racist or white supremacist or what have you.

00:32:23.280 And so these sorts of things are just inevitable.

00:32:25.840 And I talk about Hamilton, which is actually fascinating to me.

00:32:29.860 Hamilton, the Broadway musical, many of your listeners are probably familiar with.

00:32:33.760 Because it's actually a kind of classic intermediate product of what's the so-called Great Awakening when all this Rachel stuff really begins to grim off the rails in the early 2010s.

00:32:46.920 That it was started a little bit before then and it's kind of concluded after that in terms of the writing.

00:32:51.740 And I think ideologically it really reflects that and that in some ways it kind of calls back to this very good civic nationalism.

00:32:58.960 I mean it valorizes for the most part the founders, even, you know, the slave-holding George Washington.

00:33:04.300 It certainly valorizes Hamilton and it kind of is telling a story that's proud to be American.

00:33:10.760 So at one level you'd say that's good and they're bringing in these different groups.

00:33:15.400 But for those of you who are familiar with the story, you're familiar that very intentionally there was color-conscious casting ultimately of this show.

00:33:26.420 And pretty much everyone's a minority, mostly African-American, although not exclusively.

00:33:32.060 Lin-Manuel Miranda, who plays Hamilton, is Hispanic.

00:33:36.280 And, you know, there's a couple Asian-Americans.

00:33:40.480 The one villain, King George, is white.

00:33:43.460 And that is probably not a coincidence.

00:33:45.820 And again, I think I'm not here to bash Hamilton.

00:33:47.880 I actually think artistically it's very, very well done.

00:33:51.420 I'm not going to hear to bash it.

00:33:55.560 I understand why it was such a successful production.

00:33:59.080 I think Lin-Manuel Miranda is a very talented artist.

00:34:01.480 But there is this ideological kind of substructure underneath it that while it has some things that would unify us, really, when you kind of look under the hood, begins to tell a very disquieting story in which the whiteness of America's history and our founders is erased and a different story is told.

00:34:22.640 Yeah, I mean, it really creates an uncomfortable conversation, but it's one that's increasingly difficult to have when you have a diverse society and people, like you say, want to see themselves reflected in the world around them.

00:34:36.200 You have to change the world that's around them to make that true.

00:34:39.720 You have to change the history.

00:34:40.860 You have to change the entertainment.

00:34:42.640 You have to strip out many of the things that made the place what it is.

00:34:45.660 And it's very difficult then to acknowledge that that will have an inverse impact on the people who were the majority.

00:34:54.720 People always talk about representation, how important it is for minorities to have representation.

00:34:59.700 Okay, well, what happens when the people who were the majority of the culture stop being represented?

00:35:04.900 Like, what does that actually look like?

00:35:06.460 And again, that's very scary because that means people owe consciousness.

00:35:12.460 There's a thing we have to notice, a thing we have to.

00:35:14.400 But you can't have any of these conversations.

00:35:17.220 And I feel like that's the difficulty that many conservatives are trying to do.

00:35:22.220 They're trying to have this conversation with only one side of the conversation allowed to be set.

00:35:28.160 And they're just screaming like, no, just ignore the other side.

00:35:31.300 You can't.

00:35:31.880 Whatever you do, it's the one place we cannot go to make a Dune reference.

00:35:36.740 Like, it's the one place you cannot view.

00:35:38.060 And so, like, you're always in this extremely, you know, unproductive mode of conversation where there's an obvious answer to this question.

00:35:47.420 But you're never allowed to invoke it because if you do, everything explodes.

00:35:52.620 And this just makes the problem unsolvable, especially for the right. 0.57

00:35:56.160 Absolutely. And I think you really you see this in a lot of the way that this kind of debate takes place publicly.

00:36:04.380 Obviously, you see white people's discomfort in kind of dealing with this issue at all.

00:36:12.260 And what I'm kind of trying to say in the book is we need to kind of get over that, because if we're interested.

00:36:17.160 And by the way, you can have I mean, I sort of one of the things I I call for in the book is effectively what one might call multiracial whiteness.

00:36:24.380 I borrowed the term white shifting from the multiracial scholar named Eric Kaufman, who's himself multiethnic and is Canadian, but he teaches in the UK.

00:36:34.700 But he kind of wrote a book about kind of how he sort of sees a future in sort of creating a new sort of maybe less threatening way to talk about it for some people would be to say a scholarly term called ethnogenesis.

00:36:48.460 Right. That you're creating a new American ethnicity that may have its roots in a kind of European people and European culture,

00:36:56.280 but is inclusive of groups like Hispanics, which are primarily European ancestry group anyway, or other multiracial people or even monoracial people who just really want to identify with America's culture and history.

00:37:11.420 And kind of a white pill, if you will, amidst all of this is that you can actually with the right.

00:37:19.960 With the right kind of governmental and cultural backing of this, you can actually go quite a far way with this.

00:37:24.760 And my favorite example of it is my friend Razib Khan, who's a kind of very well-known popular writer on genetics, has written about the Hungarians.

00:37:34.000 And the Hungarians have this deep cultural reference in their history to kind of being descended from these Central Asian conquerors who kind of swoop in.

00:37:46.000 And this is very much part of the Hungarian identity.

00:37:48.160 It's even the reason the Hungarian language is totally different than all the other countries around them.

00:37:53.260 Now, the reality is, overwhelmingly, all those Central Asian conquerors who swept into Hungary made up the nobility.

00:38:00.900 They were all slaughtered in like the 14th century versus the Turks.

00:38:04.100 I'm sure some historian will say I got the history wrong, but like that's that's roughly what happens.

00:38:07.780 And so when you look genetically, you know, from a racial angle, the Hungarians basically represent a population that is extraordinarily similar to every other European population around it.

00:38:21.560 But culturally, they feel this great affinity toward this Central Asian ancestry.

00:38:26.680 So, like, that's the kind of trick.

00:38:29.140 I mean, that's not going to happen to white people in the U.S. anyway.

00:38:32.460 But the point is saying that these things are malleable to a degree, you know, who we choose to identify with.

00:38:39.220 But we've got to actually be trying to move in that direction as opposed to what we're doing, which is toward more and more cultural disintegration.

00:38:46.960 So, Jeremy Carl, castizo futurism here is advocating.

00:38:49.860 It is absolutely castizo futurism.

00:38:52.100 Yeah.

00:38:52.860 All right.

00:38:53.420 So a couple more questions here.

00:38:56.880 Obviously, the next thing most people will want to know is what's the point of all this?

00:39:01.760 Right.

00:39:01.960 Like, where is this going?

00:39:03.560 You can say that they're, you know, deploying this against, you know, the majority of the population.

00:39:10.480 But that seems like a doomed project.

00:39:12.720 Right.

00:39:13.220 Like that's going to be demoralizing or that's going to tear the country apart.

00:39:16.120 Like what what would be the actual outcome here?

00:39:19.200 What's their what is the goal by implementing this system?

00:39:22.100 Well, and I say in the book that this is kind of a necessarily speculative exercise, right, to kind of discuss what people's motivations are, which are always multifactorial in any event.

00:39:35.400 But what I kind of argue and it's funny because as I've shared this with a few people on air, they've been like, oh, yeah, of course, that's that's what I think it is, too.

00:39:42.500 So I basically say, look, like many, if not most arguments in politics, this is ultimately about the control of resources.

00:39:51.260 And there is a perception and to some degree a reality that white people have a lot of resources.

00:39:56.060 I mean, they were essentially the kind of historical American nation that kind of had everything up until the 1960s.

00:40:04.920 So they've got resources.

00:40:06.520 Other groups would like access to those resources.

00:40:08.460 But in 2024, America, you can't just go up and say, you know, I want your stuff, right?

00:40:14.940 Like nobody's going to find that particularly persuasive.

00:40:18.960 So you need what the mid 20th century sociologist C. Wright Mills called a legitimating ideology, which is to say that you need to create an ideology around this sort of issue that justifies actually, yeah, I'm going to take your stuff.

00:40:35.080 And it's really good because, by the way, you're systemically racist and you have white privilege and you're still discriminating against me and all these other things that are going to demand that it is actually in the interest of justice for me to take the things that used to belong to you.

00:40:52.200 And so I think that is ultimately what we're seeing in things like reparations, in kind of all these discussions around privilege, in some of the social programs that are getting advocated for.

00:41:07.400 That is really kind of the ultimate driver.

00:41:10.060 It's kind of putting a pretty face on a kind of classical friend enemy problem in politics.

00:41:17.680 And I know you're very familiar having written about these type of politics.

00:41:20.700 So I guess we've already talked about the multiracial whiteness aspect of possible solutions. 0.97

00:41:29.660 Are there any other ways, you know, to go ahead and remedy this?

00:41:34.460 Are there any ways for you can kind of bring peace outside of just the one you've already discussed?

00:41:40.240 Yeah.

00:41:40.460 And in no way am I saying I don't want to understate the gravity of our problems.

00:41:46.200 I think they're very severe.

00:41:48.180 But in no way are they unsolvable.

00:41:50.020 And even for people who say, oh, they've never been worse, you know, if you look at the prelude to the Civil War, even times in the early 20th century, we had a tremendous amount of social disintegration.

00:42:03.600 Even though I think it's quite high right now, it was even greater at times then or even parts of the 1960s with all these public bombings, you know, going on and whatnot.

00:42:11.080 So I think there's lots of ways that we can solve it if we choose to reverse course.

00:42:15.980 So we've talked a little bit about multiracial whiteness.

00:42:18.320 We've talked about fundamental reform of civil rights laws.

00:42:21.360 I think you particularly have to go after affirmative action.

00:42:23.780 And the court has now given us an opening to do that by declaring it forbidden in the context of university admissions.

00:42:32.440 I think a really key thing is from the category of if you're in a big hole, stop digging.

00:42:37.380 We need to basically move to a net zero immigration over a short period of time. 0.97

00:42:43.760 That doesn't mean nobody's coming in, but it means that we're deporting an illegal for any legal person that is coming in.

00:42:50.500 And we just we need a breather at the very least where we can begin to re-assimilate these groups and figure out what is this new American people and new American culture going to look like.

00:43:02.960 Interestingly, the 1950s, which we were alluding to before, kind of something of an almost cliched heyday of this all-American identity.

00:43:12.340 Even among groups, by the way, people say, oh, well, that was before civil rights.

00:43:16.580 African-Americans are making tremendous, tremendous gains during this period.

00:43:21.400 And in fact, in many ways, they sort of level off after the civil rights revolution, which is something not a lot of people talk about.

00:43:27.380 But this this time of kind of almost stereotypical national unity.

00:43:31.840 I don't think it's any coincidence that this happens in the wake of the 1924 Johnson Reed Act, which is the strictest American immigration law that we've ever had.

00:43:41.740 And really does begin to bring down the numbers and also lessen the diversity quite a bit in terms of sources of immigration.

00:43:49.900 And it's doing over that over the next 30 years in which Italians and Poles and Jews and whoever else, they all kind of I don't want to say melting pot because that brings up a whole other discussion.

00:44:02.820 But but they begin to Americanize, for lack of a better term.

00:44:06.340 You know, they begin to adopt a common culture.

00:44:09.660 And so I think all these things we can do, I think there's all sorts of alliances with groups like groups like Asian-Americans who I think are kind of going to run.

00:44:19.960 They're kind of the scapegoating whitey bit is kind of running out of room for them. 0.62

00:44:24.700 It's just not going to really be viable.

00:44:27.000 The sorts of ways in which white people are being discriminated against in the United States, many of them also apply to Asian-Americans.

00:44:34.500 And so I think there are opportunities for alliances there.

00:44:39.220 So I think there's lots of things.

00:44:41.060 I have 12 different kind of ideas in my book that I discuss in the concluding chapter.

00:44:46.380 But in no way would I say it's a hopeless situation.

00:44:50.240 It's just one that we need to get much more serious than we are about solving it.

00:44:54.900 And, you know, I wrote this book because the first step of solving the problem is acknowledging that you have a problem.

00:45:00.500 And so this is an attempt to really say, hey, this is a problem.

00:45:03.700 Let's do something about it.

00:45:06.020 So one more question before we go to the questions of the people on current events.

00:45:11.620 Right now, Columbia University is under siege.

00:45:14.680 Right. We've got one of our every every like six or seven years, an American university has to have some kind of, you know, insane communist protest.

00:45:24.740 And this one, of course, is surrounding the issue of kind of what's happening in Gaza right now.

00:45:30.180 And one thing we've seen is that, you know, the campuses, which have been very happy to host a large number of speakers and demonstrations and sometimes outright, you know, violence in the name of kind of anti-white, anti-European sentiments, suddenly seem to have the need to crack down on these demonstrations.

00:45:56.400 Right. All of a sudden, the narratives that it applied to people of European descent when it comes to colonization and these kind of things were also being applied to Jewish Americans.

00:46:06.800 And this seemed to spring people into action in a way that they hadn't really felt the necessity for action in the last decade of many of the things that you talk about in the book.

00:46:17.620 And so I just wonder, do you think that this shift, do you think that the shift in attitude, the fact that it seems like Jewish Americans may now be treated more as white colonizers in the same narratives might apply to them?

00:46:30.560 Do you think that might shift a group that has, for the most part, been a pretty stalwart supporters of the Democratic Party, open immigration of these things?

00:46:39.480 Will that change their support of many of these?

00:46:42.080 Or is that is that something where you just kind of have this monolithic support that exists for many communities like the black community that don't seem to shift when material conditions or political conditions actually seem to change?

00:46:53.360 Yeah, well, I think we often hear this, ah, this is going to be the prelude to the shift.

00:46:59.760 And then the shift has not maybe happened to the degree that we do think.

00:47:03.320 I do think, however, that the current situation, I mean, Jews have always been perceived as white by U.S. law.

00:47:10.220 It's something I talk briefly about in the book.

00:47:12.260 But I think the segment of left wing Jews who would like to run away from that, again, they're just increasingly running out of room. 0.71

00:47:19.940 People are not going to play that game.

00:47:22.860 And therefore, you do have a group that's been very influential and effective overall and certainly is very disproportionately represented in environments like elite universities that may, you know, finally be saying, hey, you know, we're going to come and play on the other team right now because the team that we've been on does not really seem to be working very well for our interests.

00:47:44.200 And I think that that has some risk, but it also has some very exciting possibilities for us if we are able to kind of effectuate that type of a shift.

00:47:56.180 But, you know, they're also and I think they're really you're seeing people who are kind of making that shift in real time.

00:48:02.360 But there's also resistance. And I just kind of think back when some of these things were going on at Yale, I got a note from a Jewish classmate of mine and they essentially wanted me to sign some petition that effectively with kind of they wanted to like put Jews in the DEI category so they would get their own DEI things.

00:48:21.800 And I'm like, no, I'm not doing that because I'm not you know, what we have to do is tear this out root and branch, period.

00:48:28.560 Right. Like I'm not making a separate piece for any group here.

00:48:33.860 And so I think some people in the Jewish community are getting that others are not.

00:48:38.220 And I think over time, most of them are actually going to end up allying with us on this, but it's going to be a process.

00:48:46.180 And I think like lots of other groups we're seeing under Trump, a lot of alliances shifting, whether it be working class Hispanics really migrating toward the GOP.

00:48:56.520 There's a lot of political ferment and realignment in American politics right now.

00:49:00.940 And this is just one piece of it.

00:49:02.260 All right, guys, well, we're going to go ahead and go to the questions of the people.

00:49:06.260 But of course, you absolutely should be going out, picking up Jeremy's book, reading it, checking out his work.

00:49:12.800 Jeremy, what's the best place for people to pick up the book, find your other work?

00:49:17.340 Sure. So you can order it pretty much now on your retail store should be able to get it.

00:49:23.080 But the easiest way, probably just go on Amazon or Barnes and Noble and buy it there.

00:49:28.060 Again, it came out yesterday.

00:49:29.320 It's been a great success so far.

00:49:32.900 We're actually already doing a second printing.

00:49:35.000 So that's been really exciting to me.

00:49:37.180 Lots of endorsements from anybody to Tucker Carlson, Victor Davis Hanson, Charlie Kirk, a whole host of Heather McDonald,

00:49:46.660 a whole host of kind of very big names on the right have been kind enough to lend their support to it.

00:49:53.700 So you can certainly go do that.

00:49:55.060 And to kind of make my small pitch beyond that, I would say, if any of you understand the economics of book publishing,

00:50:03.360 believe me, I'm not going to get rich or even make a significant amount of money at all off your purchase.

00:50:09.320 But what it does do is it sends a message to publishers.

00:50:13.460 And it was a risk for a mainstream conservative publisher, Regnery, the biggest and oldest conservative publisher, to take this book on.

00:50:22.080 It was a risk.

00:50:23.460 And the way that you tell them that there's a real audience for it is you buy the book.

00:50:27.380 And then they're like, ah, you know, people really care about this issue.

00:50:30.740 People want to read about this issue.

00:50:32.440 And so I think even if you don't think my solutions are perfect in buying the book, you're encouraging other people to sort of come forward.

00:50:40.020 So that's one place you can find me.

00:50:41.760 The other place you can find me is on my X slash Twitter feed.

00:50:45.180 That's Real Jeremy Carl.

00:50:46.300 And I have a new substack called The Course of Empire.

00:50:49.940 And that's at jeremycarl.substack.com.

00:50:52.500 And you can sign up there.

00:50:53.460 It's free.

00:50:54.540 And I roughly weekly just kind of give updates on what I'm doing.

00:50:57.940 And you'll see pointers to my work.

00:51:01.320 And I publish in a lot of different places.

00:51:03.980 And if you follow me on both those places, you will not miss a single minute, even of the minutes you might want to miss, of my professional life.

00:51:11.400 So that would be where you could find me.

00:51:13.360 All right, guys, let's go ahead and check out your questions here.

00:51:17.640 Arthur T. says,

00:51:20.900 Now, you've already answered, I think, some of this, that the CRA is not sufficient.

00:51:39.900 Let me ask you this as well, since we didn't get to get into it.

00:51:44.180 I had a discussion on Twitter with Chris Ruffo.

00:51:47.780 And he suggested that you can't get rid of the CRA, that it actually needs to stay in place to stop anti-white discrimination.

00:51:56.360 I am more skeptical.

00:51:58.440 I believe that as long as the government has the tools to basically review every interpersonal interaction across the United States in perpetuity, it will never be in favor of removing anti-white discrimination.

00:52:12.400 What do you think about the prospect of not just the feasibility, but whether, you know, whether we should aim at kind of the removal of this kind of wider leviathan of civil rights legislation?

00:52:26.780 Yeah, I mean, it's a good question.

00:52:28.440 And by the way, thank you, Arthur, for your question.

00:52:29.920 So I'm going to be annoying here, and I'm going to split the baby a little bit between you and Ruffo, and not just because Chris was kind enough to endorse my book, but because I think there's something in what both of you are saying in that I am actually not a big fan of talking about repeal.

00:52:47.360 I think it freaks people out, because they don't, you know, the average normie person out there is just like, civil rights is a good thing, you know, you know, are we trying to go back to Jim Crow, which of course we're not, absolutely not trying to do that.

00:53:00.840 I think it's more fundamental and useful to talk about reform.

00:53:04.340 And I think, along the lines of what you're talking about, I think this means dramatically reducing the scale of the ways in which this enters our lives, and to kind of just reorient and rethink and understand that, look, I don't even find it that useful to relitigate the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

00:53:23.480 Again, this is a slight area of departure between me and somebody like Hanani or Caldwell.

00:53:29.520 It was obviously a very blunt instrument. There was real discrimination going on at the time.

00:53:35.080 I think it was reasonably justifiable to use a blunt instrument in good faith.

00:53:39.760 I'm not saying that it would have been my choice to have done it that way, but I'm not going to kind of like just play, you know, backseat driver and say, oh, it was bad.

00:53:48.520 I think that the bigger point is, in 2024, we are as far away in time from that as they were from the Wright brothers.

00:53:55.680 We have a totally different set of issues that we're dealing with.

00:54:00.200 We're not worrying about Black people not being served at lunch counters.

00:54:03.660 We're worried about, you know, really dubious racial discrimination suits, not being able to put criminals in prison because of racial impact theory or all sorts of other things.

00:54:14.420 So let's kind of reorient whatever civil rights laws we decide to end up with toward a sort of actual problems that we have today, which are not the kind of problems we had in the early 1960s.

00:54:28.520 And so, look, that's going to be a fight.

00:54:31.240 I think your your your questioner is right to say, wow, that implicitly that that's a really heavy lift.

00:54:38.780 I think it is. But we have to put it on the table and until we put it on the table, which I'm trying to do in this book and other people have also to some degree tried to do, then we're certainly not going to make any real progress on the issue.

00:54:51.760 Absolutely.

00:54:52.840 Cripper Weirdo says, I heard from some that you wanted to call the book.

00:54:56.640 It's OK to be white, but the publisher won't let you. 0.99

00:54:59.300 It is OK to be white, by the way. 0.84

00:55:01.120 Yeah. And Jeremy covered that there.

00:55:03.100 Yeah.

00:55:03.300 It's not surprising, unfortunately, that they had you pivot away from that.

00:55:07.840 But I think I mean, it would have sold so many copies that it would have made me like even more infamous.

00:55:15.480 And perhaps they were trying to protect me a little bit in giving it this more academic title, protected classes, of course, being a technical term in civil rights law.

00:55:26.120 So it sort of feels less threatening to people who are inclined to be threatened.

00:55:30.400 It would be a little harder to hand to your grandma.

00:55:34.520 Right.

00:55:35.120 Yeah.

00:55:35.420 Well, unfortunately, as ridiculous as the fact that that phrase is is polarizing, you know, that that would have made it a little put a little closer to the polemic style.

00:55:45.540 Right. 0.77

00:55:46.160 Let's see here. 0.98

00:55:47.420 Tiny Stupid Demon says, I'm still waiting to see the slightest dent in the regime dogma that all statistical statistical discrepancies between groups are due to racism. 0.97

00:55:56.960 That seems necessary. Any thoughts on how that might happen?

00:56:01.960 Well, I think people are talking about it and that's the best thing that you can do.

00:56:05.640 And look, I mean, there there are profound taboos about going into some areas of this discussion just as much, if not even greater than some of the taboos of just raising the issues.

00:56:15.940 I am. I think kind of regardless of sort of, you know, before I kind of go in personally, this is just I'm just giving you my personal strategy right now.

00:56:24.900 I'm not trying to tell anybody else what they can do, what they should do, or I'm not trying to punch right on any of this stuff.

00:56:30.140 I would say that, you know, when you begin talking about some of the edgier stuff in this, like, is there a political path through that?

00:56:39.920 I'm not sure that there is a great one.

00:56:42.300 And what I prefer to just really do is I'm trying to lay out, look, there could be a million different reasons that you have disparities.

00:56:48.740 OK, they could be genetic, environmental, some combination thereof.

00:56:54.500 It could be because the lunar eclipses, you know, happened in 2024 on a certain day and it just changed the vibes.

00:57:02.280 Like, I don't care what these are to some degree.

00:57:06.040 All I'm trying to prove in this is that it's not these discrepancies are not a result of white people being racist.

00:57:12.160 And in fact, we've got the exact opposite problem.

00:57:14.880 And so if you will just agree with me on that, OK, then we can all have sort of interesting discussions and disagreements about kind of what you do as step number two.

00:57:24.980 But like right now, what we need to do is blow up the thing that is the absolute myth.

00:57:30.940 And then that hopefully gives us some space to have different and better and more real types of conversations about some of these other issues.

00:57:38.700 Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

00:57:40.060 I'm trying to phrase this properly without triggering YouTube.

00:57:42.800 In the 2015s, a lot of people showed up on the scene to declare all of the scientific data that they were very sure about that would, like, crack this case wide open.

00:57:58.760 And guess what happened?

00:58:00.880 Nothing.

00:58:01.720 Nothing happened.

00:58:02.980 No situation improved.

00:58:04.900 The light of day being shown on statistics did not shift the opinion of almost anyone.

00:58:10.720 It did not make any significant changes in law or culture.

00:58:14.720 And that doesn't say that you need to avoid statistics or any truth here.

00:58:19.320 I'm not here to tell you not to tell those truths or not to observe those truths or make any factual claims.

00:58:24.680 What I'm saying is that should teach you an important lesson about persuasion.

00:58:29.240 And if you cannot observe that lesson, then get your autism checked.

00:58:35.920 I think you've hit it, right?

00:58:38.660 Like, it is truly online autism, right?

00:58:40.980 To think otherwise.

00:58:42.600 And you can think that that's fair or you can think that's not fair, but that's just what it is.

00:58:47.060 And I think, Oren, you've hit on it perfectly.

00:58:49.400 It's to look at that recent history, to understand this is about persuasion, to understand that really we can get a large degree of where we want to go if we can prove what is not going on here, which is, like, white people being racist.

00:59:03.000 Like, if we can just establish that.

00:59:05.320 And there's a lot of other things where discrepancies don't need to be adjudicated, the reasons for them, down to the seventh decimal place, right?

00:59:13.860 We can just acknowledge that, hey, there are discrepancies.

00:59:17.080 There are going to be various reasons for those discrepancies.

00:59:19.560 But we're going to do everything we can to observe equality under the law and not kind of play racial games in kind of how we do things in America.

00:59:30.140 Creeper Weirdo here says, Oren, none of this will make Elon Musk king of the U.S.

00:59:35.460 It's not fast enough for me.

00:59:37.160 You guys are just engaging in Paw Patrol politics.

00:59:40.200 I want it now.

00:59:41.240 Thank you for channeling Curtis Yarvin for us, Creeper Weirdo.

00:59:45.840 You needed a few more ums, though.

00:59:48.060 I don't feel like there are enough breaks in that.

00:59:50.240 And then Davisar says, on this topic of race-swapping media like Hamilton, do you support Ryan Gosling as Black Panther?

00:59:58.600 Yes, I refuse to really watch very many Marvel movies anymore at this point.

01:00:03.800 But if they made that one, I would go.

01:00:07.080 I would happily hand my money over to the otherwise evil Disney Corp if only to see the Ryan Gosling Black Panther.

01:00:14.440 And I do talk about Black Panther and the ideology of Black Panther in this book, in the Hollywood chapter.

01:00:19.640 I think it's interesting.

01:00:20.600 But to kind of get to the very serious kind of point underneath your question or sort of impish question, no, of course not.

01:00:28.880 Right.

01:00:28.980 Like you would never, you're not, you know, that kind of racial, like we can have a Black Mary Queen of Scots, but we could never have Ryan Gosling as Black Panther.

01:00:39.200 And, of course, we couldn't even have Ryan Gosling as Booker T. Washington or George Washington Carver or, you know, pick your African-American history.

01:00:47.420 I feel like it was good Malcolm X. 0.98

01:00:48.800 I think that's a story.

01:00:49.460 Right.

01:00:49.680 Or Malcolm X.

01:00:50.840 You just couldn't do it.

01:00:51.940 And the fact that that door today only swings one way, again, tells us something about where we are in the culture.

01:00:59.300 Yeah.

01:00:59.560 Yeah.

01:00:59.940 Unfortunately, it's blindingly obvious.

01:01:01.600 But I am very glad that, again, you took the time and had the courage to put that together in a book that is, I think, well-researched and level-headed.

01:01:10.000 And, again, most importantly, probably on this issue, something you can hand to the average person and have them see a well-reasoned case that doesn't blow out any, you know, any gaskets and otherwise just.

01:01:22.180 Presents them with something that I think is undeniable in the face of the evidence.

01:01:25.700 All right, guys.

01:01:26.660 Well, like I said, please make sure that you go ahead and order Jerry McCarl's book.

01:01:31.340 And, of course, if it's your first time on this channel, make sure that you go ahead and subscribe.

01:01:35.960 Make sure that you go ahead and turn on the notifications.

01:01:38.820 Click the bell.

01:01:39.460 Make sure that you can catch these streams when they go live.

01:01:42.740 Of course, if you'd like to get these broadcasts as podcasts, make sure that you go ahead and subscribe to The Oren McIntyre Show on your favorite podcast platform.

01:01:50.280 And when you do leave a rating or review, it helps with the algorithm.

01:01:54.340 And if you'd like to order my upcoming book, The Total State, you can go ahead and do that on Amazon as well.

01:02:00.320 Thank you for watching, guys.

01:02:01.300 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - April 24, 2024

The Unprotected Class ｜ Guest： Jeremy Carl ｜ 4⧸24⧸24

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript