Jeremy Carl is a senior fellow at the Claremont Institute and was a member of the Trump administration. He is also the author of the new book, "The Unprotected Class," a book that explores the growing problem of an over-represented class in American universities. In this episode, we talk about why this is a problem and what can be done about it.
00:00:58.460Yeah, I know we've kind of hinted at this book in kind of our past conversations.
00:01:04.700You've been working on it for a long time.
00:01:07.740But I think it's really important to dedicate an episode to this because it's the kind of book that says something that I think most people probably look around and could recognize if they're honest with themselves.
00:01:18.520But no one is comfortable having a discussion about.
00:01:22.140And so while it's something that I think most people would rather not engage with, it's becoming more and more critical.
00:01:30.220And the fact that you went through and took the time and had the courage, frankly, to go ahead and put something like this together for people to take a look at and hear a calm, reasoned argument for why this is an issue and what can be done about it, I think is really important.
00:02:27.100And instead, I moved to Montana and I went into the Trump administration and I did all sorts of things to kind of avoid writing this.
00:02:34.500But then, you know, at a certain point, you know, when I was in the Trump administration, a lot of my writings on this type of stuff attracted more attention from our enemies.
00:02:42.920And I just realized, you know, there's really no avoiding it.
00:03:07.420And we can't let them get away with it.
00:03:09.080America was made for an educated and engaged citizenry.
00:03:12.620The Intercollegiate Studies Institute is here to help.
00:03:15.440ISI offers programs and opportunities for conservative students across the country.
00:03:20.620ISI understands that conservatives and right of center students feel isolated on college campuses and that you're often fighting for your own reputation, dignity, and future.
00:03:30.120Through ISI, you can learn about what Russell Kirk called the permanent things, the philosophical and political teachings that shaped and made Western civilization great.
00:03:39.720ISI offers many opportunities to jumpstart your career.
00:03:42.820They have fellowships at some of the nation's top conservative publications like National Review, the American Conservative, and the College Thinker.
00:03:49.900If you're a graduate student, ISI offers funding opportunities to sponsor the next great generation of college professors.
00:03:55.340Through ISI, you can work with conservative thinkers who are making a difference.
00:03:59.820Thinkers like Chris Ruffo, who currently has an ISI researcher helping him with his book.
00:04:04.840But perhaps most importantly, ISI offers college students a community of people that can help them grow.
00:04:10.260If you're a college student, ISI can help you start a student organization or student newspaper or meet other like-minded students at their various conferences and events.
00:04:19.740ISI is here to educate the next generation of great Americans.
00:04:49.600It would have created a firestorm in the media.
00:04:53.380This would have been something that's completely unsayable in any kind of company, especially a polite company.
00:04:59.420And times seem to have changed through the efforts, I think, of several commentators who deserve credit, like Tucker Carlson and Matt Walsh and Charlie Kirk and many other mainstream people who maybe often aren't given credit for this by people who consider themselves more dissident, right?
00:05:22.940This is a phrase that has now entered, I think, at least to some extent, the popular consciousness.
00:05:28.560But still, when you talk to a lot of conservatives, especially older conservatives, people who are more of a Rush Limbaugh generation style conservative, this still rings hollow to them.
00:05:40.880It feels like a lot of times you try to have this conversation and be like, this just doesn't happen, that you're overblowing this.
00:05:47.300This sounds like something that a villain would say in a TV show from the 90s.
00:05:51.960And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that generational divide and how this has become something that some people are willing to address, but it's still something that is many conservatives see as just a non-issue or something they're unwilling to engage with.
00:06:11.200And it's sort of funny, when I was on Charlie Kirk's show a week or so ago, he actually brought this very thing up.
00:06:17.580And he said sort of, you know, when I talk with some of my older donors and such about this, they're like, oh, you know, you can't talk about this.
00:06:24.400Whereas when I talk to younger people, and Charlie probably talks to more young people than just about any conservative commentator out there, they're like, oh, yeah, of course, you know, this is going on.
00:06:33.600So I think there's a couple things going on there, Oren.
00:06:35.760I mean, one of them is just the difference in experience, right?
00:06:38.660I mean, if you're old enough, you grew up in a time where our racial relations were very different.
00:06:45.720You also, depending on how old you were, lived through the civil rights movement and saw some of the things where America had sort of fallen short of its founding ideas before that.
00:06:56.420So, you know, you're kind of just coming at everything with a different perspective.
00:07:01.240And I also think you're kind of used to, if you're older, an environment in which the debate is just much more cut off.
00:08:12.660You know, this is this is you laying out evidence in a pretty calm way, which is some makes something you can hand to somebody who otherwise probably would not engage with the subject.
00:08:22.920And they're not going to open this up and find a screed about all the injustice that that's occurring, even though the facts are just laid out there.
00:08:30.080Or it's interesting because in many ways, it feels like, you know, you're you're just kind of picking up free money off the ground.
00:08:36.500Like you're just picking up, you know, obvious, obvious research.
00:08:50.440And I think maybe the I haven't said this before on a podcast, but honestly, maybe if I were more brilliant, I wouldn't have written this book because I could just, you know,
00:08:59.080take some really hard esoteric thing and say something brilliant about it.
00:09:02.960I mean, I think I'm looking forward to reading your book or and I think maybe you've done some version of that.
00:09:07.560And maybe it's just like I'm not bright enough.
00:09:09.200So like I'm just like, huh, this shiny thing is like right on the ground.
00:09:16.380You know, I don't need to be like the most, you know, brilliant seven degrees, talk about 15 Greek philosophers and give a powerful critique of Nietzsche versus Rawls, you know, to to kind of explain like what's going on here.
00:09:31.880It's like, huh, white people are being discriminated against.
00:10:24.880But I want to approach some just basic questions here, because I think a lot of people watching this show are going to be familiar with why this is an important topic.
00:10:33.680This is not the first time they've heard this broach.
00:10:35.960So you probably don't have to pitch why this is happening.
00:10:38.540But if they're like me, they've heard a lot of arguments.
00:10:41.800They've been in basic conversations with people who just brush this off and can't see how it could possibly be an issue.
00:10:48.480And so I'm going to ask some things that seem rather obvious.
00:10:50.720But I it's just nice to have them expounded upon in a way that I think the average person can go ahead and take to someone who they're trying to show this to and say, hey, this is an important issue.
00:11:01.440So I think the first thing that people look at, you know, beyond like, oh, this isn't really happening.
00:11:05.880You know, the next thing they'll say is, well, how could this possibly happen in a country that is majority white?
00:11:17.060You know, even the people who seem to be pushing this are white in a lot of instances.
00:11:21.860How could this possibly develop in a nation that is majority the population that is supposed to be oppressed in this scenario?
00:11:30.660Yeah. And I'd say a few things, and I just actually want to go back a little bit before I do this to something that you said in your last question, which is in terms of the audience for this.
00:11:41.040I think the most online edgelordy type people, if I can use Internet terminology, will still read this book, even if they're pretty immersed in these issues and learn a lot of things.
00:11:51.680But I also read it very explicitly for that mainstream audience that that person could go give it to their mom or their dad or their sister or whatever, even their kid who might be more skeptical or like and there's nothing in there that's going to scare them or they'll feel like the argument is irresponsible or, you know, I'm using a bunch of rhetorical flourishes.
00:12:11.680I'm actually not trying to play the oppression Olympics. You kind of used the term oppressed.
00:12:18.360I mean, I think there's still a lot of internally very functional things in the white American community.
00:12:26.760There's obviously a lot of history that we can point back to and other things like that.
00:12:31.060I'm not kind of looking to complain to the refs here. I'm sort of trying to rally the troops and say, hey, look, we don't need to put up with being treated in a second class fashion.
00:12:42.540So as to why this is happening, I honestly I don't have a neat answer.
00:12:47.700I'll give you a few kind of different things that I think are going on because I think it's it's multifactorial.
00:12:52.400The first thing I think that we see really going on is to the extent that liberal whites are driving this, and I actually would argue they're the kind of most powerful group.
00:13:03.420At some level, it's a kind of way of showing their alleged superiority. Right.
00:13:08.880It's like if you have so much money and so much power that you'll be fine and your kids will be fine, even if you're being discriminated against.
00:13:16.200That's kind of a flex to use the kind of younger term. Right.
00:13:20.260Right. And so there's an element of that.
00:13:23.440There's an element to which those white people kind of see themselves as different and better than other white people.
00:13:29.140And if you spent time, I mean, I spent many years in Ivy League universities and similar type dynamics.
00:13:35.080So I'm kind of aware of that type of thinking being out there.
00:13:38.140I think it's that for understandable historical reasons and other things, white solidarity of any type has always been very frowned upon and stigmatized in American culture.
00:13:51.160So, you know, right now whites are about 58 percent of the population, but in no sense are they unified, let alone on this issue.
00:13:58.580Whereas I think to a greater degree, minorities being unified is not stigmatized in this country.
00:14:05.860And so you're seeing a lot of those loud voices among minority community leadership combining with liberal whites.
00:14:13.160And that's what's kind of, I think, the primary drivers of this phenomenon.
00:14:17.340So the other thing that you hear, I think, you know, we'll talk about the evidence here in a second, but I wanted to get these questions out of the way first.
00:14:26.320I think once you lay out the evidence for a lot of this stuff and you do in quite a bit of detail in the book, once people start seeing this evidence, the next response is almost always, well, maybe it's necessary.
00:14:40.400You know, maybe this is maybe this is simply what it takes to redress the wrongs that were visited upon minority populations by a majority white population at some time in history.
00:14:53.580And, you know, if we aren't if we aren't vigilant and we don't keep this in place, then, you know, these things will reemerge.
00:15:01.680Right. This is always the Joe Biden. He's going to put you all back in chains.
00:15:07.800What would you say to those who say, look, like, you know, white young male, he's going to be fine.
00:15:14.120Don't worry about it. You know, at the end of the day, we have to do this to make sure that we kind of keep a certain level of social cohesion because we can't let these groups get elevated beyond each other.
00:15:28.700I mean, one, Thomas Sowell, who is something of a touchstone for this book, talks about the quest for cosmic justice almost invariably leading to greater injustice.
00:15:36.720And I think that's absolutely true. Right. So I kind of don't like that type of of thinking about cosmic justice.
00:15:44.520But but I'd say beyond that, a lot of these things that talk about how everything's so great for white people, to the extent that it was really true anytime in recent history, are kind of working on a lot of outdated information.
00:15:57.160We're seeing a lot of what the Nobel Prize winning economists at Princeton, Angus Deaton and his wife, Anne Case, called deaths of despair, which I talk about in my book among middle and working class whites of middle aged drugs, suicide, other things.
00:16:13.920We're seeing a big increase among that in the white population, where their baseline, by the way, was also higher to begin with.
00:16:21.240And we're not seeing a comparable rise in other populations.
00:16:26.620Beyond that, a lot of these things that kind of point out, oh, how great it is for white people sort of play a little sleight of hand where they erase in particular Asian Americans.
00:16:37.940And on pretty much any metric of income, education, health, Asian Americans are doing better than white Americans.
00:16:46.020And it's really hard to kind of have a white supremacist theory that incorporates that really neatly.
00:16:54.540I mean, the model minority stuff doesn't really fly for lots of reasons.
00:16:58.080But I point out it's not even just related to Asian Americans.
00:17:01.260I talk in the book about any number of groups like Venezuelan Americans or Nigerian Americans of Igbo descent and all sorts of other people who also are kind of doing better on pretty much any metric that you would look than the average white American.
00:17:17.640And so if you think that there's something systemically racist against these groups going on in our society, it's a little difficult to explain why we'd be seeing the sorts of things that we're seeing.
00:17:28.840Yeah, I want to go ahead and get into the mechanisms, because obviously, if this is occurring, then it has to be enshrined somewhere in the systems of our government or our wider culture.
00:17:43.620But before we do, let me tell you about your moral duty to go ahead and hire based people through New Founding.
00:17:49.880Hey, guys, I need to talk to you about New Founding.
00:17:52.620Look, we all know that the job market is a disaster right now.
00:17:56.300So based people can't find good companies to work for and good companies can't find employees to get the work done.
00:18:03.920And that's why you need access to the New Founding network.
00:18:07.680New Founding has created a network of high excellence professionals who are seeking to join grounded American businesses.
00:18:15.540They're individuals, often in elite organizations, who are ready for a team and mission that supports their values instead of working against them.
00:18:24.160Align companies are already using the network to hire high trust, exceptional individuals who match the culture and mission of their team.
00:18:34.220You can apply for access to the New Founding Talent network at newfounding.com slash talent.
00:18:41.360You'll be connected with candidates who will build your business.
00:18:51.980So obviously the word systemic racism gets thrown around all over the place.
00:18:56.340We're very familiar with this at this point.
00:18:59.860And whenever someone gets asked, you know, whenever someone on the left alleges that there's still racism in the country, that the average minority is held down by the system.
00:19:13.780The first thing a conservative asks is, show me the racist law, right?
00:19:17.680Like, show me, you know, show me the evidence of where the legal code, where hiring policies, where you are allowed to actively and openly discriminate against, you know, a minority in any of these parts of American life.
00:19:32.160And I think for a lot of people, if they hear the same thing about, you know, the way anti-white racism, they're going to want to see the same evidence.
00:19:39.860So what would be some of the mechanisms that you point to in the book that would show people, hey, this is this is something that's actually encoded into our law or this is encoded into the way that we have to do business in the United States that ensures that white people are treated with some kind of disadvantage?
00:19:57.020Yeah, well, there's there's a few things. And one of them is civil rights law.
00:20:01.880And this is an area that's been covered by folks like my Clement colleague, Christopher Caldwell and Richard Hanania and Chris Ruffo and some others.
00:20:09.300And I think that's really important. I actually spent a whole chapter in the book talking about it.
00:20:14.040I do think sometimes it's actually slightly overstated. This would be a slight degree of departure, I think, of my analysis from some of these other folks.
00:20:22.460And that I think if you eliminated every single one of those civil rights laws, it would be a necessary precondition to kind of and replacing them or I shouldn't say eliminate, but at least amending them in some fundamental ways.
00:20:36.840It would be a necessary precondition to kind of fixing the problem, but it's not sufficient. Right.
00:20:43.320And so you can kind of look at a state like California, which has twice banned affirmative action by popular referendum in the last 20 years in its universities.
00:20:53.420And yet if you go in these universities, that's kind of ignored.
00:20:58.140So but civil rights is really important and particularly things like disparate impact.
00:21:01.640And that may be kind of a phrase that's known to some of your more knowledgeable listeners and viewers.
00:21:08.200But for those who don't know it, I mean, disparate impact is a element of civil rights law that grows out of the 1971 court decision that I've written about called Riggs versus Duke Power.
00:21:19.360And it basically to kind of oversimplify, if you're a business and you kind of have a outcome for an employment process, a hiring process that is kind of varies significantly by race, it's said to have a disparate impact on the race affected.
00:21:37.860And you have to kind of jump through all these hoops to show that there was kind of a business necessity or some other thing that really justified that.
00:21:46.200And so what, in fact, businesses do because they don't want to wind up in court is they end up discriminating against white people to make sure that they don't have it.
00:21:55.000And by the way, the really key part of the Supreme Court ruling is the Supreme Court said in Riggs versus Duke Power, it doesn't matter whether you were intending to discriminate by race or not.
00:22:04.700And so, in fact, what we just saw literally this week with a chain of convenience stores, I'm just blanking on its name all of a sudden, but they are being sued because they had criminal background checks for their employees.
00:22:18.600And that because of the different rates of criminal offending by race was seen as racially discriminatory.
00:22:24.640So that's kind of the level of absurdity that we're talking about that really is baked into the cake.
00:22:30.580And then before I kind of turn it back to you, I'll kind of point out one of the ways.
00:22:35.400You know, how do you see this in practice is on our censuses, on everything else, there is a flight from white.
00:22:43.140And you see increasingly people doing everything they can to identify themselves officially and legally as something other than white, you know, whether that be that they're 164th Cherokee and cutie Elizabeth Warren jokes here or they're multiracial in some way or whatever.
00:23:02.920I mean, if they can seize on something other than being white, they are going to do that.
00:23:08.280And that is very consistent with the thesis that I'm telling in my book.
00:23:11.780Yeah, I just wrote a piece that ran into the blaze today about that convenience store chain.
00:23:48.680And so that in and of itself is not enough.
00:23:53.240But people, I think, are more familiar with that, like you said, due to Christopher Caldwell's book and the focus that myself and others have brought to that.
00:24:00.480What are some other mechanisms that aren't just I mean, they might be connected to civil rights law.
00:24:05.600But what are some other factors that have significantly changed the dynamics inside, you know, the racial dynamics inside the United States or the increase the salience that that has, you know, that is now has inside different organizations, institutions?
00:24:29.160And in fact, one of the things I wrestled with before I decided to really go with the harder core term racism on the front is that of the book is, you know, some of it is discriminatory.
00:25:08.300There's sort of 11 different subject matter chapters from business to Hollywood to academia, et cetera, that I talk about crime in this book.
00:25:18.360I'm not experts on all of them, but immigration is one where I do feel like I have a fair bit of expertise and I write a lot about it in the book.
00:25:24.920So very few people kind of really understand the story of American immigration policy.
00:25:30.120But basically, Hart-Cellar in 1965 is a dramatic departure from anything we've done before in terms of immigration policy.
00:25:38.200And it leads to a, you know, kind of a replacement, if I can use the provocative word, of the old American demographics with new demographics.
00:25:47.020And so I think just a change in the numbers has played a role here, but also just things that are harder to quantify.
00:25:55.920Like in my Hollywood chapter, I talk a lot about even starting in the 1960s, liberal scholars, mind you, who have kind of done the analysis, find that minorities were portrayed more positively than white people on average in Hollywood.
00:26:13.340Now, of course, this doesn't mean there weren't stereotypes or negative portrayals, but just this is what they find on average.
00:26:19.680And in fact, this has become such a cliche on Madison Avenue in commercials.
00:26:26.160There's actually a Twitter feed that I believe is called White People Are Stupid in Commercials.
00:26:31.140I have it in the book, but it's literally just dedicated to the constant refrain in a contemporary commercial of the dumb white guy who is saved by the minority who's wiser, usually a minority female, even better.
00:26:45.860Again, this is so prevalent at this point, and it's not due to any law, it's due to a change in culture that, again, you have entire advertising industry blogs and Twitter feeds and whatnot that are kind of devoted to examining this as a phenomenon.
00:27:02.420Yeah, when white people are even allowed to exist in an advertisement, I think there's some comedian who made the joke, like, you know, in 20 years, people are going to ask, you know, what apocalypse occurred to wipe all the white people out of advertisements?
00:27:16.820Right. Yeah. So I think you're right to point out the importance of the cultural shift as well.
00:27:23.500And that's a lot harder to nail down because, of course, you don't have official laws and, you know, and things that you can point to and say this act of this date kind of introduces this.
00:27:33.260But I think it's critical. I mean, there's often a debate among, you know, in many of the circles that I'm in, whether law drives culture or culture drives law.
00:27:40.940And, of course, the answer is a mix of both, to be sure. But I wonder what you what you think really drove the cultural end of this, because obviously people will look at the 1950s and however you feel about, you know, the shifts that occurred after.
00:27:57.620They'll say that this is this is a nation in which it seems like it's OK to be white.
00:28:03.420This is not a problem. This is not something that that that is a moral deficit on your part.
00:28:09.240But that seems to shift pretty, pretty noticeably as time goes on.
00:28:13.900And do you think that is something that's downstream from the the immigration, from the from from the the narratives that are told due to the civil rights movement, to the law?
00:28:23.640Or do you think this is something that is truly organic and has roots in kind of America's consciousness as it shifts into this kind of multiracial existence?
00:28:33.420We hope you're enjoying your Air Canada flight.
00:29:44.060And predictably, what ensued was a kind of firestorm and all the diversity people at these universities denouncing them and everybody saying racist and white supremacy.
00:29:56.460And then folks like Tucker Carlson kind of got in and said, is it not OK to be white?
00:30:27.840And to me, nothing could illustrate sort of better the actual reality of where we are, that this would be seen as some sort of outrageous provocation, right?
00:30:42.260So there is that that's going on there.
00:30:45.380I think demographics, again, play a huge role, the changing demographics in Hartzeller.
00:30:50.540And again, I mean, I'm kind of just not a fan of diversity generally.
00:30:53.460And I want to say this very carefully so that it's not misconstrued.
00:30:55.980It does not mean that I am not a fan of diverse groups of Americans, right?
00:31:01.800Like most people who've – I mean, I live in Montana now, but I've lived in very, very diverse areas.
00:31:07.660I lived in the Bay Area for many years, San Francisco Bay Area.
00:31:10.200I mean, I have lots of diverse groups of friends, colleagues, et cetera.
00:31:13.600The problem is that when you have diversity in any society in excess, that often leads to a lot of social conflict.
00:31:33.680They're saying, wow, you know, I don't really seem to be – my ancestors don't really seem to be much of a part of this American story, for example, right?
00:31:41.320Like the founders at the founding, as best we could tell, the U.S. citizen population wasn't just overwhelmingly white.
00:32:18.980I need to say that it was systemically racist or white supremacist or what have you.
00:32:23.280And so these sorts of things are just inevitable.
00:32:25.840And I talk about Hamilton, which is actually fascinating to me.
00:32:29.860Hamilton, the Broadway musical, many of your listeners are probably familiar with.
00:32:33.760Because it's actually a kind of classic intermediate product of what's the so-called Great Awakening when all this Rachel stuff really begins to grim off the rails in the early 2010s.
00:32:46.920That it was started a little bit before then and it's kind of concluded after that in terms of the writing.
00:32:51.740And I think ideologically it really reflects that and that in some ways it kind of calls back to this very good civic nationalism.
00:32:58.960I mean it valorizes for the most part the founders, even, you know, the slave-holding George Washington.
00:33:04.300It certainly valorizes Hamilton and it kind of is telling a story that's proud to be American.
00:33:10.760So at one level you'd say that's good and they're bringing in these different groups.
00:33:15.400But for those of you who are familiar with the story, you're familiar that very intentionally there was color-conscious casting ultimately of this show.
00:33:26.420And pretty much everyone's a minority, mostly African-American, although not exclusively.
00:33:32.060Lin-Manuel Miranda, who plays Hamilton, is Hispanic.
00:33:36.280And, you know, there's a couple Asian-Americans.
00:33:40.480The one villain, King George, is white.
00:33:43.460And that is probably not a coincidence.
00:33:45.820And again, I think I'm not here to bash Hamilton.
00:33:47.880I actually think artistically it's very, very well done.
00:33:55.560I understand why it was such a successful production.
00:33:59.080I think Lin-Manuel Miranda is a very talented artist.
00:34:01.480But there is this ideological kind of substructure underneath it that while it has some things that would unify us, really, when you kind of look under the hood, begins to tell a very disquieting story in which the whiteness of America's history and our founders is erased and a different story is told.
00:34:22.640Yeah, I mean, it really creates an uncomfortable conversation, but it's one that's increasingly difficult to have when you have a diverse society and people, like you say, want to see themselves reflected in the world around them.
00:34:36.200You have to change the world that's around them to make that true.
00:35:31.880Whatever you do, it's the one place we cannot go to make a Dune reference.
00:35:36.740Like, it's the one place you cannot view.
00:35:38.060And so, like, you're always in this extremely, you know, unproductive mode of conversation where there's an obvious answer to this question.
00:35:47.420But you're never allowed to invoke it because if you do, everything explodes.
00:35:52.620And this just makes the problem unsolvable, especially for the right.
00:35:56.160Absolutely. And I think you really you see this in a lot of the way that this kind of debate takes place publicly.
00:36:04.380Obviously, you see white people's discomfort in kind of dealing with this issue at all.
00:36:12.260And what I'm kind of trying to say in the book is we need to kind of get over that, because if we're interested.
00:36:17.160And by the way, you can have I mean, I sort of one of the things I I call for in the book is effectively what one might call multiracial whiteness.
00:36:24.380I borrowed the term white shifting from the multiracial scholar named Eric Kaufman, who's himself multiethnic and is Canadian, but he teaches in the UK.
00:36:34.700But he kind of wrote a book about kind of how he sort of sees a future in sort of creating a new sort of maybe less threatening way to talk about it for some people would be to say a scholarly term called ethnogenesis.
00:36:48.460Right. That you're creating a new American ethnicity that may have its roots in a kind of European people and European culture,
00:36:56.280but is inclusive of groups like Hispanics, which are primarily European ancestry group anyway, or other multiracial people or even monoracial people who just really want to identify with America's culture and history.
00:37:11.420And kind of a white pill, if you will, amidst all of this is that you can actually with the right.
00:37:19.960With the right kind of governmental and cultural backing of this, you can actually go quite a far way with this.
00:37:24.760And my favorite example of it is my friend Razib Khan, who's a kind of very well-known popular writer on genetics, has written about the Hungarians.
00:37:34.000And the Hungarians have this deep cultural reference in their history to kind of being descended from these Central Asian conquerors who kind of swoop in.
00:37:46.000And this is very much part of the Hungarian identity.
00:37:48.160It's even the reason the Hungarian language is totally different than all the other countries around them.
00:37:53.260Now, the reality is, overwhelmingly, all those Central Asian conquerors who swept into Hungary made up the nobility.
00:38:00.900They were all slaughtered in like the 14th century versus the Turks.
00:38:04.100I'm sure some historian will say I got the history wrong, but like that's that's roughly what happens.
00:38:07.780And so when you look genetically, you know, from a racial angle, the Hungarians basically represent a population that is extraordinarily similar to every other European population around it.
00:38:21.560But culturally, they feel this great affinity toward this Central Asian ancestry.
00:38:29.140I mean, that's not going to happen to white people in the U.S. anyway.
00:38:32.460But the point is saying that these things are malleable to a degree, you know, who we choose to identify with.
00:38:39.220But we've got to actually be trying to move in that direction as opposed to what we're doing, which is toward more and more cultural disintegration.
00:38:46.960So, Jeremy Carl, castizo futurism here is advocating.
00:39:13.220Like that's going to be demoralizing or that's going to tear the country apart.
00:39:16.120Like what what would be the actual outcome here?
00:39:19.200What's their what is the goal by implementing this system?
00:39:22.100Well, and I say in the book that this is kind of a necessarily speculative exercise, right, to kind of discuss what people's motivations are, which are always multifactorial in any event.
00:39:35.400But what I kind of argue and it's funny because as I've shared this with a few people on air, they've been like, oh, yeah, of course, that's that's what I think it is, too.
00:39:42.500So I basically say, look, like many, if not most arguments in politics, this is ultimately about the control of resources.
00:39:51.260And there is a perception and to some degree a reality that white people have a lot of resources.
00:39:56.060I mean, they were essentially the kind of historical American nation that kind of had everything up until the 1960s.
00:40:06.520Other groups would like access to those resources.
00:40:08.460But in 2024, America, you can't just go up and say, you know, I want your stuff, right?
00:40:14.940Like nobody's going to find that particularly persuasive.
00:40:18.960So you need what the mid 20th century sociologist C. Wright Mills called a legitimating ideology, which is to say that you need to create an ideology around this sort of issue that justifies actually, yeah, I'm going to take your stuff.
00:40:35.080And it's really good because, by the way, you're systemically racist and you have white privilege and you're still discriminating against me and all these other things that are going to demand that it is actually in the interest of justice for me to take the things that used to belong to you.
00:40:52.200And so I think that is ultimately what we're seeing in things like reparations, in kind of all these discussions around privilege, in some of the social programs that are getting advocated for.
00:41:07.400That is really kind of the ultimate driver.
00:41:10.060It's kind of putting a pretty face on a kind of classical friend enemy problem in politics.
00:41:17.680And I know you're very familiar having written about these type of politics.
00:41:20.700So I guess we've already talked about the multiracial whiteness aspect of possible solutions.
00:41:29.660Are there any other ways, you know, to go ahead and remedy this?
00:41:34.460Are there any ways for you can kind of bring peace outside of just the one you've already discussed?
00:41:50.020And even for people who say, oh, they've never been worse, you know, if you look at the prelude to the Civil War, even times in the early 20th century, we had a tremendous amount of social disintegration.
00:42:03.600Even though I think it's quite high right now, it was even greater at times then or even parts of the 1960s with all these public bombings, you know, going on and whatnot.
00:42:11.080So I think there's lots of ways that we can solve it if we choose to reverse course.
00:42:15.980So we've talked a little bit about multiracial whiteness.
00:42:18.320We've talked about fundamental reform of civil rights laws.
00:42:21.360I think you particularly have to go after affirmative action.
00:42:23.780And the court has now given us an opening to do that by declaring it forbidden in the context of university admissions.
00:42:32.440I think a really key thing is from the category of if you're in a big hole, stop digging.
00:42:37.380We need to basically move to a net zero immigration over a short period of time.
00:42:43.760That doesn't mean nobody's coming in, but it means that we're deporting an illegal for any legal person that is coming in.
00:42:50.500And we just we need a breather at the very least where we can begin to re-assimilate these groups and figure out what is this new American people and new American culture going to look like.
00:43:02.960Interestingly, the 1950s, which we were alluding to before, kind of something of an almost cliched heyday of this all-American identity.
00:43:12.340Even among groups, by the way, people say, oh, well, that was before civil rights.
00:43:16.580African-Americans are making tremendous, tremendous gains during this period.
00:43:21.400And in fact, in many ways, they sort of level off after the civil rights revolution, which is something not a lot of people talk about.
00:43:27.380But this this time of kind of almost stereotypical national unity.
00:43:31.840I don't think it's any coincidence that this happens in the wake of the 1924 Johnson Reed Act, which is the strictest American immigration law that we've ever had.
00:43:41.740And really does begin to bring down the numbers and also lessen the diversity quite a bit in terms of sources of immigration.
00:43:49.900And it's doing over that over the next 30 years in which Italians and Poles and Jews and whoever else, they all kind of I don't want to say melting pot because that brings up a whole other discussion.
00:44:02.820But but they begin to Americanize, for lack of a better term.
00:44:06.340You know, they begin to adopt a common culture.
00:44:09.660And so I think all these things we can do, I think there's all sorts of alliances with groups like groups like Asian-Americans who I think are kind of going to run.
00:44:19.960They're kind of the scapegoating whitey bit is kind of running out of room for them.
00:44:24.700It's just not going to really be viable.
00:44:27.000The sorts of ways in which white people are being discriminated against in the United States, many of them also apply to Asian-Americans.
00:44:34.500And so I think there are opportunities for alliances there.
00:45:06.020So one more question before we go to the questions of the people on current events.
00:45:11.620Right now, Columbia University is under siege.
00:45:14.680Right. We've got one of our every every like six or seven years, an American university has to have some kind of, you know, insane communist protest.
00:45:24.740And this one, of course, is surrounding the issue of kind of what's happening in Gaza right now.
00:45:30.180And one thing we've seen is that, you know, the campuses, which have been very happy to host a large number of speakers and demonstrations and sometimes outright, you know, violence in the name of kind of anti-white, anti-European sentiments, suddenly seem to have the need to crack down on these demonstrations.
00:45:56.400Right. All of a sudden, the narratives that it applied to people of European descent when it comes to colonization and these kind of things were also being applied to Jewish Americans.
00:46:06.800And this seemed to spring people into action in a way that they hadn't really felt the necessity for action in the last decade of many of the things that you talk about in the book.
00:46:17.620And so I just wonder, do you think that this shift, do you think that the shift in attitude, the fact that it seems like Jewish Americans may now be treated more as white colonizers in the same narratives might apply to them?
00:46:30.560Do you think that might shift a group that has, for the most part, been a pretty stalwart supporters of the Democratic Party, open immigration of these things?
00:46:39.480Will that change their support of many of these?
00:46:42.080Or is that is that something where you just kind of have this monolithic support that exists for many communities like the black community that don't seem to shift when material conditions or political conditions actually seem to change?
00:46:53.360Yeah, well, I think we often hear this, ah, this is going to be the prelude to the shift.
00:46:59.760And then the shift has not maybe happened to the degree that we do think.
00:47:03.320I do think, however, that the current situation, I mean, Jews have always been perceived as white by U.S. law.
00:47:10.220It's something I talk briefly about in the book.
00:47:12.260But I think the segment of left wing Jews who would like to run away from that, again, they're just increasingly running out of room.
00:47:19.940People are not going to play that game.
00:47:22.860And therefore, you do have a group that's been very influential and effective overall and certainly is very disproportionately represented in environments like elite universities that may, you know, finally be saying, hey, you know, we're going to come and play on the other team right now because the team that we've been on does not really seem to be working very well for our interests.
00:47:44.200And I think that that has some risk, but it also has some very exciting possibilities for us if we are able to kind of effectuate that type of a shift.
00:47:56.180But, you know, they're also and I think they're really you're seeing people who are kind of making that shift in real time.
00:48:02.360But there's also resistance. And I just kind of think back when some of these things were going on at Yale, I got a note from a Jewish classmate of mine and they essentially wanted me to sign some petition that effectively with kind of they wanted to like put Jews in the DEI category so they would get their own DEI things.
00:48:21.800And I'm like, no, I'm not doing that because I'm not you know, what we have to do is tear this out root and branch, period.
00:48:28.560Right. Like I'm not making a separate piece for any group here.
00:48:33.860And so I think some people in the Jewish community are getting that others are not.
00:48:38.220And I think over time, most of them are actually going to end up allying with us on this, but it's going to be a process.
00:48:46.180And I think like lots of other groups we're seeing under Trump, a lot of alliances shifting, whether it be working class Hispanics really migrating toward the GOP.
00:48:56.520There's a lot of political ferment and realignment in American politics right now.
00:50:32.440And so I think even if you don't think my solutions are perfect in buying the book, you're encouraging other people to sort of come forward.
00:51:01.320And I publish in a lot of different places.
00:51:03.980And if you follow me on both those places, you will not miss a single minute, even of the minutes you might want to miss, of my professional life.
00:51:11.400So that would be where you could find me.
00:51:13.360All right, guys, let's go ahead and check out your questions here.
00:51:58.440I believe that as long as the government has the tools to basically review every interpersonal interaction across the United States in perpetuity, it will never be in favor of removing anti-white discrimination.
00:52:12.400What do you think about the prospect of not just the feasibility, but whether, you know, whether we should aim at kind of the removal of this kind of wider leviathan of civil rights legislation?
00:52:28.440And by the way, thank you, Arthur, for your question.
00:52:29.920So I'm going to be annoying here, and I'm going to split the baby a little bit between you and Ruffo, and not just because Chris was kind enough to endorse my book, but because I think there's something in what both of you are saying in that I am actually not a big fan of talking about repeal.
00:52:47.360I think it freaks people out, because they don't, you know, the average normie person out there is just like, civil rights is a good thing, you know, you know, are we trying to go back to Jim Crow, which of course we're not, absolutely not trying to do that.
00:53:00.840I think it's more fundamental and useful to talk about reform.
00:53:04.340And I think, along the lines of what you're talking about, I think this means dramatically reducing the scale of the ways in which this enters our lives, and to kind of just reorient and rethink and understand that, look, I don't even find it that useful to relitigate the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
00:53:23.480Again, this is a slight area of departure between me and somebody like Hanani or Caldwell.
00:53:29.520It was obviously a very blunt instrument. There was real discrimination going on at the time.
00:53:35.080I think it was reasonably justifiable to use a blunt instrument in good faith.
00:53:39.760I'm not saying that it would have been my choice to have done it that way, but I'm not going to kind of like just play, you know, backseat driver and say, oh, it was bad.
00:53:48.520I think that the bigger point is, in 2024, we are as far away in time from that as they were from the Wright brothers.
00:53:55.680We have a totally different set of issues that we're dealing with.
00:54:00.200We're not worrying about Black people not being served at lunch counters.
00:54:03.660We're worried about, you know, really dubious racial discrimination suits, not being able to put criminals in prison because of racial impact theory or all sorts of other things.
00:54:14.420So let's kind of reorient whatever civil rights laws we decide to end up with toward a sort of actual problems that we have today, which are not the kind of problems we had in the early 1960s.
00:54:28.520And so, look, that's going to be a fight.
00:54:31.240I think your your your questioner is right to say, wow, that implicitly that that's a really heavy lift.
00:54:38.780I think it is. But we have to put it on the table and until we put it on the table, which I'm trying to do in this book and other people have also to some degree tried to do, then we're certainly not going to make any real progress on the issue.
00:55:03.300It's not surprising, unfortunately, that they had you pivot away from that.
00:55:07.840But I think I mean, it would have sold so many copies that it would have made me like even more infamous.
00:55:15.480And perhaps they were trying to protect me a little bit in giving it this more academic title, protected classes, of course, being a technical term in civil rights law.
00:55:26.120So it sort of feels less threatening to people who are inclined to be threatened.
00:55:30.400It would be a little harder to hand to your grandma.
00:55:35.420Well, unfortunately, as ridiculous as the fact that that phrase is is polarizing, you know, that that would have made it a little put a little closer to the polemic style.
00:55:47.420Tiny Stupid Demon says, I'm still waiting to see the slightest dent in the regime dogma that all statistical statistical discrepancies between groups are due to racism.
00:55:56.960That seems necessary. Any thoughts on how that might happen?
00:56:01.960Well, I think people are talking about it and that's the best thing that you can do.
00:56:05.640And look, I mean, there there are profound taboos about going into some areas of this discussion just as much, if not even greater than some of the taboos of just raising the issues.
00:56:15.940I am. I think kind of regardless of sort of, you know, before I kind of go in personally, this is just I'm just giving you my personal strategy right now.
00:56:24.900I'm not trying to tell anybody else what they can do, what they should do, or I'm not trying to punch right on any of this stuff.
00:56:30.140I would say that, you know, when you begin talking about some of the edgier stuff in this, like, is there a political path through that?
00:56:39.920I'm not sure that there is a great one.
00:56:42.300And what I prefer to just really do is I'm trying to lay out, look, there could be a million different reasons that you have disparities.
00:56:48.740OK, they could be genetic, environmental, some combination thereof.
00:56:54.500It could be because the lunar eclipses, you know, happened in 2024 on a certain day and it just changed the vibes.
00:57:02.280Like, I don't care what these are to some degree.
00:57:06.040All I'm trying to prove in this is that it's not these discrepancies are not a result of white people being racist.
00:57:12.160And in fact, we've got the exact opposite problem.
00:57:14.880And so if you will just agree with me on that, OK, then we can all have sort of interesting discussions and disagreements about kind of what you do as step number two.
00:57:24.980But like right now, what we need to do is blow up the thing that is the absolute myth.
00:57:30.940And then that hopefully gives us some space to have different and better and more real types of conversations about some of these other issues.
00:57:40.060I'm trying to phrase this properly without triggering YouTube.
00:57:42.800In the 2015s, a lot of people showed up on the scene to declare all of the scientific data that they were very sure about that would, like, crack this case wide open.
00:58:42.600And you can think that that's fair or you can think that's not fair, but that's just what it is.
00:58:47.060And I think, Oren, you've hit on it perfectly.
00:58:49.400It's to look at that recent history, to understand this is about persuasion, to understand that really we can get a large degree of where we want to go if we can prove what is not going on here, which is, like, white people being racist.
00:59:05.320And there's a lot of other things where discrepancies don't need to be adjudicated, the reasons for them, down to the seventh decimal place, right?
00:59:13.860We can just acknowledge that, hey, there are discrepancies.
00:59:17.080There are going to be various reasons for those discrepancies.
00:59:19.560But we're going to do everything we can to observe equality under the law and not kind of play racial games in kind of how we do things in America.
00:59:30.140Creeper Weirdo here says, Oren, none of this will make Elon Musk king of the U.S.
01:00:28.980Like you would never, you're not, you know, that kind of racial, like we can have a Black Mary Queen of Scots, but we could never have Ryan Gosling as Black Panther.
01:00:39.200And, of course, we couldn't even have Ryan Gosling as Booker T. Washington or George Washington Carver or, you know, pick your African-American history.
01:01:01.600But I am very glad that, again, you took the time and had the courage to put that together in a book that is, I think, well-researched and level-headed.
01:01:10.000And, again, most importantly, probably on this issue, something you can hand to the average person and have them see a well-reasoned case that doesn't blow out any, you know, any gaskets and otherwise just.
01:01:22.180Presents them with something that I think is undeniable in the face of the evidence.
01:01:39.460Make sure that you can catch these streams when they go live.
01:01:42.740Of course, if you'd like to get these broadcasts as podcasts, make sure that you go ahead and subscribe to The Oren McIntyre Show on your favorite podcast platform.
01:01:50.280And when you do leave a rating or review, it helps with the algorithm.
01:01:54.340And if you'd like to order my upcoming book, The Total State, you can go ahead and do that on Amazon as well.