The Auron MacIntyre Show - The Virtue of Nationalism and America's Relationship with Israel ｜ Guest： Yoram Hazony

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00:00:15.600 hey everybody how's it going thanks for joining me this afternoon i've got a great stream with a

00:00:19.840 great guest that i think you're really going to enjoy before we get started i wanted to remind

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00:00:58.880 our work all right guys today i am discussing or having a discussion with yoram hozoni he is a

00:01:07.200 lecturer he is a organizer politically he is somebody who runs the edmund burke foundation which

00:01:13.600 operates the national conservatism convention both in the united states and in europe and he's

00:01:18.960 an author of a great book called the virtue of nationalism thank you so much for joining me

00:01:23.600 my pleasure on good good to see you absolutely i found uh your book very helpful uh it uh laid out

00:01:33.600 a lot of thoughts that i've had myself uh when exploring i think um what many people would say

00:01:39.440 non-liberal understandings of the state and its origins i think it makes a very interesting case

00:01:44.720 for nationalism itself and why it's so critical for the nation state to continue to be

00:01:50.160 the way in which we organize most of the world however i do think that there are some interesting

00:01:55.360 challenges uh to this thesis ones that i have tried to overcome due to my support of nationalism

00:02:00.400 but some that i run into on a regular basis and so i certainly want to pick your brain

00:02:04.160 about those challenges and and what they might uh mean for your work uh but both of us have the um

00:02:11.040 interesting distinction of being attacked uh by guys like james lindsey for being part of the

00:02:16.320 quote-unquote woke right because we recognize that perhaps uh post-enlightenment understandings

00:02:22.080 uh of the nation state aren't exactly accurate and we might need a better anthropology of uh of

00:02:27.520 humanity to really grasp why we order ourselves the way we do as communities one of the things that you

00:02:32.960 do in the book is attack perhaps the lockian understanding one which is very prominent in american

00:02:38.880 civic religion it's one i taught as a civics teacher uh in american high schools uh the idea of the

00:02:44.080 social contract theory that we all exist uh you know before the creation of the state and we all

00:02:49.040 affix ourselves to some form of social contract that we've determined beforehand and this is what

00:02:53.680 ultimately defines who we are this is the propositional nation as it is pushed in the united

00:02:58.560 states and i think you do a good job of laying out why there are some serious problems with that

00:03:03.360 formulation or nation could could you lay that out for us yeah sure i mean at the very center of um

00:03:15.040 the dominant political world view you know at least at least at least since the second world war

00:03:20.880 in you know pretty much america europe and pretty much all democratic countries that dominant world view

00:03:26.640 i think it's reasonable to call it liberalism and um uh as you suggest liberalism begins with a an

00:03:34.560 extremely simple anthropology meaning a very very very abstract and very simple uh view of what human

00:03:42.480 beings are and everybody's familiar with it because you learn it you know in high school and then in

00:03:46.480 college and then in graduate school if you go to graduate school and so that liberal anthropology

00:03:51.920 suggests that human beings are born free and equal john locke says perfectly free and perfectly equal

00:04:01.520 and that they take on moral and political obligations uh exclusively by way of consent

00:04:08.480 right so if if you as a perfectly free individual if you don't agree to have a certain obligation say to

00:04:16.160 you know serve in the military or honor your parents or or or anything else then uh then you don't have

00:04:22.880 that obligation uh if it if you take this seriously and uh people are you know people are always saying no

00:04:29.920 locke didn't really mean it that way or or or hobbes or or or rousseau conspinoza they didn't mean it that way

00:04:37.280 but uh the the problem is that if you take the text and you let it run for centuries and then you have whole

00:04:43.600 societies adopting it and you teach it straight then you actually end up with societies of people who

00:04:49.280 tell you what politics is about my being perfectly free and perfectly equal uh now conservatives uh which

00:04:56.800 can mean a lot of different things but but the the tradition that for centuries has been opposed to

00:05:04.000 liberalism which was used to be called conservatism is um sets out by saying i mean for centuries by saying

00:05:13.440 this is a ridiculously impoverished simplified absurd view of what human beings are and if you

00:05:20.720 try to run a try to run a society a government a country on the basis of this vision you'll immediately

00:05:28.320 start doing really stupid things okay so so just to name an obvious stupid thing somebody comes to your

00:05:34.560 border and uh and and says knock knock um oran i want to come and enter your country and you oran say uh

00:05:44.080 well no thanks um uh uh we don't you know we we have too many people here or uh you know please please

00:05:51.920 come to the interview office or something and uh and and and this guy says no what are you talking about

00:05:58.000 what interview office i'm perfectly free like it says in john locke it says in liberalism i'm perfectly

00:06:05.360 free so you have to let me in you can't stand there with a gun and prevent me from coming in

00:06:10.000 or i'm perfectly equal i'm your equal i you have no right to control who gets to you know to be in

00:06:17.600 america you i i get to write i have the same right that you do because we're perfectly equal and this sounds

00:06:23.520 silly but this ultimately this is really what a great many modern political debates boil down to

00:06:31.440 is people who have been soaking in liberalism for so long that they don't recognize any kind of

00:06:39.040 moral or political rights or obligations that involve communities that involve families tribes nations

00:06:47.840 families of nations that whole uh crucial aspect of human beings simply doesn't exist

00:06:54.720 yeah and this has been a true problem with the current conservative understanding in the united states

00:07:02.080 the radical focus on the individual to almost a libertarian degree creates this situation where you

00:07:08.640 are designing a society that does not understand that these unchosen bonds are actually critical for its

00:07:15.120 own perpetuation and so you end up in this situation where you're willing to adopt completely poisonous

00:07:20.960 ideologies under the guise that will somehow uh help for the liberated individual to re realize a

00:07:27.280 self-actualization uh but not recognizing that in the meantime you're basically eating uh out from

00:07:32.720 under your society everything that actually holds it up and oh guys i should mention uh we are uh pre-taped

00:07:39.040 today because of the time delay uh over in israel so i won't be able to take questions today sorry i want to

00:07:44.880 let people know before they send any super chats uh however uh one of the problems that i think is

00:07:50.240 really impacting the united states as well because of this uh idea of the propositional nation that

00:07:55.600 it's just things that we all assent to individually uh the problem is that we are now facing this issue in

00:08:01.920 the united states where many of the immigrants who have theoretically assented to this at some point

00:08:07.360 have raised their hand and taken an oath to say yes of course i believe in these things

00:08:11.760 are now taking political power in places like minnesota and openly saying well yes technically

00:08:18.080 i'm in america but obviously i'm going to be using my political power in the interest of somalia right

00:08:24.320 greater somalia is why i'm actually here i care about the somalian community i care about the somalian

00:08:28.960 people famously we just had a democratic congresswoman uh she's at uh you know in mexico city talking about

00:08:35.120 her i believe it was her guatemalan heritage and how she's a proud guatemalan first before

00:08:40.000 she is an american uh this is becoming something that many people were very suspicious about when

00:08:44.880 it came to large-scale immigration uh however what we're seeing now is the not just a manifestation

00:08:50.160 of these interests but complete declarations of oh well yes i may have at one point raised my hand

00:08:55.360 and said i believe in the american constitution but when the you know the actual rubber meets the road

00:09:00.720 i'm really here for my nation and they know what their nation is right it's clearly not

00:09:05.360 the united states simply because they adopted uh those principles and so i think the uh you know

00:09:11.120 this liberal understanding of just we are a nation because we assent to a set of documents or we you

00:09:16.240 know we've freely given our consent to the uh to the government to dictate things to us this does not

00:09:21.600 work ultimately because when we actually see how people behave in reality once they have power what

00:09:27.200 they do is they lobby for the people that they understand to be part of their true nation not

00:09:30.960 their civic body yeah i think i i think all of that is true and i think it it boils down to um again as

00:09:40.800 you suggested at the beginning uh the anthropology which just just means the the picture of of human

00:09:47.520 nature that's at the basis of of making these decisions so i think i think that any kind of a

00:09:54.560 a uh a serious conservative has to has to say human beings are born into families tribes and nations

00:10:03.120 that means that they're raised with with bonds of loyalty i mean your parents take care of you

00:10:09.120 you're not equal to them and you're not free they they tell you what to do and uh and they raise you

00:10:15.120 as part of a tribe part of a nation uh part of you know if you want a different names a part of some kind

00:10:20.400 of group and it i i think it used to be very clearly understood that that when you uh have large-scale

00:10:29.360 immigration that people are arriving with all sorts of uh all sorts of previous loyalties now those

00:10:37.360 loyalties that they don't have to be permanent they're definitely uh circumstances under under which

00:10:44.320 you know people come to people come to america or to to uh to britain or to israel or or any other

00:10:50.880 country and they come you know kind of like the the biblical ruth is kind of the model she she's uh

00:10:57.440 she she joins israel but she says uh your people is my people and your god is my god in other words

00:11:04.080 she she abandons the prior uh loyalty you know both the kind of kinship family uh national loyalty and

00:11:13.760 also the the the religious ideological philosophical loyalty that that requires humility that requires

00:11:22.560 coming not as someone saying i'm perfectly equal to you the opposite it means coming as someone who's

00:11:29.520 asking to join and when someone's asking to join then they are uh it's you know it's it's very often

00:11:37.040 possible to join but in in order to do that they have to demonstrate loyalty they have to

00:11:43.120 demonstrate a uh a a a motivation and a willingness and a desire to become part of something that already

00:11:50.960 exists which is something different from what it is that they they they entered with and that i think

00:11:57.520 is i i i think that's really the the the missing piece in uh the immigration debate and and and a whole

00:12:05.920 lot more is that that it's simply a fact of human nature as you say it's an it's an empirical fact

00:12:12.560 that you can see by looking everywhere in the world that if you allow large groups of people who are not

00:12:22.240 clearly motivated to be abandoning their their their previous national or religious uh identities and

00:12:29.600 loyalties then instead of creating you know uh diversity is our strength you create something which

00:12:38.160 happens just you know at least as often which is that the diversity um uh is is indigestible and and you

00:12:47.040 and you you end up with competing uh possibly hostile possibly even violent um uh identity groups or loyalty

00:12:57.600 groups so that you know when we when we're seeing you know in as we saw in california in in the last few

00:13:03.600 weeks we're seeing people uh groups of people um uh in the streets engaging in violence and waving mexican flags

00:13:13.440 like you you don't need a more clear and explicit uh picture of what it means to be bringing in

00:13:22.560 uh unassimilated and unassimilable uh groups that that are not saying yes i want to be part i i'm

00:13:29.840 grateful please tell me how how i can do that yeah i think this is important because of course one of

00:13:36.240 the uh you know one of the criticisms that's constantly brought up uh of nationalism that you

00:13:41.440 talk about in your book is the idea that it creates this level of hatred of the other uh and that

00:13:46.720 ultimately you know there are and to be fair there are people who go too far i believe and say

00:13:51.120 well the entire the nation is entirely genetic and it's entirely closed to anyone coming in and

00:13:56.240 there's no way but this is just in this this does not reflect any part of history uh if you look at uh

00:14:01.920 fustel's uh book uh the ancient city he talks about how one woman leaving the household and the household

00:14:08.320 worship in the of the hearth in rome uh would be basically lost entirely to that faith when she took on

00:14:14.240 the faith of her husband and it was that carrying on of the religious faith that actually bound you

00:14:19.600 to the household it was the it's the intermarriage it's the generational passing of time that weaves

00:14:25.680 you into uh you know that culture and so in this way it it can of course heritage is a part of every

00:14:32.960 nation but it is also the religion is also language it is also culture it is the willingness to adopt

00:14:38.080 these folk ways and one of the things that has been lost i think in the america experience uh because

00:14:43.440 we have this idea of just this immediate propositional american is that actually it took

00:14:48.400 many generations of intermarriage and uh binding of these different tribes in america to actually

00:14:54.880 make them more american and so this this process is something that does not simply happen over the

00:14:59.440 course of a few years or because paperwork was crossed off or some ascent was given to some abstract

00:15:04.800 principle uh but when you do this at scale when you don't require an intermarriage or you don't require

00:15:09.520 the adoption of religion or you don't require the adoption of languages and cultures then obviously

00:15:14.160 you are now going to have basically these fifth columns that exist inside of your nation as joseph

00:15:18.960 de meister pointed out whenever you have these two uh you know ways of being next to each other inside

00:15:24.720 of a kingdom or an empire or whatever it is eventually one must overtake the other these things cannot

00:15:30.560 continue to exist in perpetuity one culture must dominate and when you don't have a clearly dominant

00:15:36.000 culture again something you point out in your book this makes it incredibly difficult for anyone to

00:15:40.720 adopt this it makes it very difficult for the nation to perpetuate its way of being its way of life

00:15:45.680 and so you've been a situation where there's a constant war between factions over who's going to

00:15:49.920 dominate and who's ultimately going to exert their will across the uh the political structure yeah i think

00:15:56.000 i think you just you've touched on a couple of absolutely uh crucial things one one of them which i think is

00:16:02.720 uh completely underestimated is uh is the place of religion where where uh by by religion i mean you know

00:16:13.040 something that resembles uh christianity or or judaism uh or islam in the sense that it's a a kind of a

00:16:22.880 a writ large you could say philosophical framework um that uh that has some basic

00:16:32.480 view of the world that is inherited that is transmitted from generation to generation and that allows

00:16:39.440 people to to recognize one another as uh as part of you know that this is part of the same framework as

00:16:46.080 part of the same uh uh way of life and way of talking and way of thinking now you're right that sometimes

00:16:54.080 people carry it too far i think i think the talk about genetics the insistence that the only component

00:17:01.760 of of a nation is race and that uh language religion uh the the the inherited laws uh are you know are

00:17:12.080 kind of they're epiphenomenal that they're they're kind of unnecessary if you you know if you know the

00:17:17.440 genetics then you've got the whole thing going i i i think that is a as you say it's historically it's

00:17:24.080 historically a uh a mistake there are people who join other nations and tribes to join other nations and

00:17:31.200 and and and become loyal to them uh but the the religious framework is one of the most important

00:17:39.600 ways in which christian nations this is certainly true of uh of uh israel as well is it is that uh in

00:17:48.720 order to overcome the you know the insistence that that it's strictly family strictly race sick strictly

00:17:56.560 birth that uh that determines what our identity is to overcome that uh the key to it is some kind of

00:18:03.520 religion is some kind of a uh a more general framework that allows people to join and and to

00:18:09.520 become uh to become fully apart and if it's not going to be christianity i mean america was

00:18:16.560 you know the the the the american uh supreme court was still uh calling the united states a christian

00:18:23.040 people you know up until the 1930s it's after world war ii that people start to get to be afraid of

00:18:29.600 saying that america is fundamentally christian in its in its identity and its laws in its beliefs and its

00:18:36.320 inheritance and its way of life and uh giving that up giving up christianity as uh the center for the

00:18:45.200 united states uh is um i i think it's very clear giving it up giving up uh god and scripture giving

00:18:53.600 up prayer in the schools uh as uh as an option that opened the door you know first for liberalism to

00:19:01.440 become kind of a substitute religion but then it turns out that liberalism doesn't propagate itself

00:19:07.280 it you know it only lasts for a generation two and then it then it collapses into

00:19:12.400 crazier religions like you know that i mean that's the the woke neo-marxist thing is uh and

00:19:20.720 you know there are going to be other candidates as soon as soon as you've given up your national

00:19:25.280 religion uh the that that held the country together even if there were you know some dissenting minorities

00:19:32.800 as soon as you give that up then that space is going to be filled by other competitors

00:19:38.000 you mentioned that post-world war ii uh this is really when we start to see the push to secularize

00:19:45.200 the united states and many other nations in fact the idea of nationhood itself starts to become very

00:19:51.040 taboo uh labeling yourself as a nationalist makes you some far-right uh radical these type of things

00:19:57.040 start to permeate and this has been given the name by i think r.r reno uh ended up coining the the

00:20:03.200 post-war consensus which is a label that has riled many a classical liberal including james lindsey i

00:20:09.360 always remember i'm doing classical liberal in quotes guys these guys are in no way classically

00:20:13.120 liberal john locke would have thrown them down a well uh but ultimately uh the point is that a lot

00:20:19.280 of people focused on this post-world war ii mindset and and i think even reno specifically says in the

00:20:24.640 book if i'm remembering correctly that it really is in many ways this idea that hitler was so monstrous and

00:20:31.200 the nazi regime was so horrible and the holocaust was uh was such a terrible event uh that the the

00:20:36.720 never again mentality permeated a lot of our understanding to the degree where just the

00:20:41.600 simple identification of a nation and a people as something distinct uh was itself now a danger

00:20:48.000 uh to global world order whatever that means uh and so we we have to beat down the idea that uh america

00:20:55.280 could be a people or could practice a distinct religion or could express a preference uh for its own

00:21:00.320 civilization its own way of life and this is something that i i think we can see across you

00:21:05.360 know countries like england now which are just slowly being conquered by islam uh you know for

00:21:10.160 the very simple reason that they don't have any uh a national identity left they've been told that uh

00:21:15.520 you know any any religion uh any idea that even the english exist as a people is now being openly

00:21:22.080 attacked in the uk uh and so this is something we can see across many many nations in the west

00:21:28.000 what do you think about the idea of the post-war consistence do you think that is a reasonable

00:21:32.960 understanding of why we shifted to this anti-nationalistic stance uh yes it is i mean

00:21:40.160 i think that the history might be a little bit more complicated because there's there's plenty of

00:21:46.320 evidence of you know of this this um liberal utopianism already after world war one i mean remember that

00:21:54.800 the the the the the the league of nations was was about banning war forever and uh and and and and so

00:22:02.480 the the utopian vision of it doesn't matter what religion we are and what nation we are we're going

00:22:08.480 to find a way to you know just solve all the problems because everyone in the world is going to become

00:22:12.720 liberal that that exists before the second world war um but by the time you get to the end of the second

00:22:20.800 world war i think i think it's absolutely correct that uh that there's a change that um the western

00:22:29.680 the western nations were one thing before the two world wars uh and and and the holocaust and everything

00:22:36.640 that went with it and they were something different after the second the the two world wars and um

00:22:43.440 um the the the you know a very clear example of this is uh 1947 it's two years after the end of world war

00:22:52.800 ii and um and uh uh in everson versus board of education the united states supreme court reconstructs

00:23:01.200 the history of the united states and instead of viewing it as having had a christian founding and

00:23:08.560 the you know the the the freedoms and the in the independence and the democracy of of the united

00:23:15.040 states before world war ii you know both roosevelt and eisenhower before world war ii just about

00:23:21.920 everyone would have would have agreed that that it's christianity that it's the bible that it's you

00:23:27.360 know that it's the inherited um uh god and way of uh of the american people which is the basis for

00:23:37.680 everything else so you would get roosevelt in 1939 talking about the united states as a god-fearing

00:23:44.240 nation whose aim was to take on the atheist uh nazis and and defeat them in the name of american

00:23:52.560 religion it was in world war ii uh eisenhower and and and uh and other generals they openly spoke of the

00:23:59.600 war as a crusade so by the time you get you know you're after world war ii and you have uh everson

00:24:07.440 in 1947 the supreme court declares that america at its founding was uh was founded against religion

00:24:15.120 that the government is not allowed to support uh any religion any particular religion or all

00:24:22.080 particular religions that you know that there's a an uh impenetrable uh wall of separation of church

00:24:29.600 and state all of these these are post-war slogans in support of a post-war um aspiration to to suppress

00:24:40.480 traditional religion and that you're absolutely right that it's not just religion it's religion

00:24:45.840 and nation these are kind of the the twin evils after the world war ii the nation thing is it's it's

00:24:52.320 a little bit easier to understand because uh hitler appropriated we can you know if we can use that

00:24:59.680 word hitler took the word nationalism which prior to him had had been a term that was used to to to

00:25:08.720 speak of a world of independent nations to speak of the idea that many nations could be independent

00:25:14.800 one another that they could balance against one another and maintain their freedom um this um

00:25:21.120 the fact that that hitler in in mein kampf appropriates the word nationalism and turns it from

00:25:29.680 the traditional inherited idea of the nation which is you know more or less what you and i've been

00:25:34.880 discussing here which goes all the way back to to the bible and other ancient texts um hitler took that

00:25:41.280 and he he uh turned it uh to a word that means biological imperialism that's a you know a famous

00:25:50.080 slogan of anthony smith um who once said look you can't you can't hitler calls himself a nationalist but

00:25:57.520 we can't say he's a nationalist because he detested the idea of the independent nation he he detested the idea

00:26:04.800 that different nations could have you know be be only under god and sought a world in which all the

00:26:13.520 nations would be under germany the german people as uh lords of the earth and mistress of the globe

00:26:21.040 so post world war ii for sure there is a uh an alliance of liberal intellectuals with marxist

00:26:28.880 intellectuals who who together um seek to uh destroy the legitimacy of inherited national identities

00:26:37.840 and religious traditions so one of the things that you do in your book uh is address the formation of

00:26:44.560 nations themselves and the process by which uh different tribes and clans are brought together

00:26:50.640 under you know the understanding of the nation's state and you contrast this with uh perhaps the

00:26:56.560 imperial state and the way that it ultimately aligns itself one of the things i enjoy is that you do face

00:27:02.880 the issue uh which i think is is a real issue about how nations are ultimately formed which is that

00:27:08.800 they do have to remove the agency of the individual tribes and they have to wear away some of the edges

00:27:15.280 of the different tribes some of their ways that conflict with each other and make them conform to

00:27:19.120 the nation ironically a little bit this is a process i actually did an entire podcast with with

00:27:23.360 daryl cooper a few years ago uh on on exactly how how this works um and so uh you you kind of

00:27:30.320 strike the nation state as a equilibrium between perhaps the radical need of the imperial state to

00:27:37.120 universalize its way of being and completely conform the peoples under it to that understanding

00:27:42.800 that legal code that culture as opposed to the nations or the the complete anarchy of the tribes

00:27:47.280 which is so radical that while they might have individual tribal freedom they aren't able to

00:27:51.360 defend themselves and able to kind of build a cohesive society out of that level of individual freedom

00:27:57.920 and so you kind of strict the nation state as that balance could you make your case for why the

00:28:01.680 nation state is the is the right place to stop on this continuum between kind of tribal anarchy and

00:28:07.120 complete imperial uh you know control universal control well that that order of of tribes and clans the the

00:28:15.840 anarchical order i mean it's not anarchical in the sense that every individual does whatever they want

00:28:21.120 but it's an anarchical in the sense that uh that in in tribal in tribal order which i think i i think

00:28:29.280 it's fair to say that the tribal order is the natural it's the natural human order like if you if you go

00:28:35.680 back prior to the uh you know five six seven thousand years prior to the accumulation of vast quantities of

00:28:45.280 uh of wealth through ag through through mass out agriculture uh if if you look prior to that

00:28:52.160 everywhere you look um human beings are live in small collections of uh of uh families uh which which

00:29:03.280 together are a band or a troop or or or a clan or something like that and then these these clans they

00:29:11.680 when when when when attacked they they pull together in order to form form a tribal alliance that lasts

00:29:19.760 you know at least at least through the war sometimes a little longer but the the transition which which

00:29:27.760 really is politically the topic of uh of hebrew scripture the topic of uh the old testament politically is

00:29:36.240 this transition when it becomes clear that um states can build empires they they can uh use taxation to

00:29:45.280 you know to mass taxation to create centralized standing governments professional army armies instead

00:29:52.400 of just militias you know that you know come together uh but but professional armies that that train for

00:29:58.960 war and conquest and then set out as as many of these uh these armies did to conquer the four corners of the

00:30:05.760 earth the uh the uh the the political question that hangs over uh the uh the uh the old testament

00:30:13.760 the debate about whether you know whether israel should continue uh in in a tribal anarchical kind

00:30:21.200 of society like in the book of judges or whether it should be like the other nations and have a king with

00:30:26.160 the central government that that that gives rise to well first of all it's the result of recognition uh

00:30:35.280 that the tribal anarchy as you said is complete it is absolutely incapable you know except maybe in

00:30:42.080 certain you know remote corners of of yemen or something but you know in the mountains but in general um

00:30:48.480 um imperial armies uh it eliminate everything in their path and and and tribal militias are are powerless

00:30:57.600 against them and the uh the question is whether there is any kind of a uh an organization that is

00:31:07.840 like the imperial state it's like the assyrians and the babylonians and the egyptians in having a central

00:31:13.600 government and and imposing an order on on on on the tribal uh anarchy but uh does not seek uh to

00:31:24.480 conquer the four corners of the earth and that that's that's one of the the the central political

00:31:30.240 propositions of uh of of uh the books of moses and the prophets of the old testament is this claim

00:31:38.880 that uh empire which seeks you know seeks world dominance and and by the way uh uh not just in

00:31:46.560 the name of you know the greed of the rulers and the conquerors but but but also uh explicitly uh for

00:31:53.760 the sake of peace bringing you know bringing peace to mankind imposing you know an end to the tribal warfare

00:32:00.080 and therefore an end to uh to uh to the disease and starvation that war war brings empire was always

00:32:09.280 just like it is today with the globalists it was always uh wrapped in the claim of bringing peace and

00:32:15.360 prosperity and there was some truth to that so that the the question is do you have to give up your

00:32:23.280 freedom your the the collective freedom of the tribes to live their own you know according to their own

00:32:28.560 inheritance their own laws their own traditions their own way of life do you have to give that

00:32:34.000 up to get peace and prosperity uh by subjecting yourself to the absolute rule of of of some world

00:32:41.120 emperor and the uh the proposal which is already very it's it's already clear in the bible and then it's

00:32:47.600 picked up uh by by polybius and and uh and others in in the greek and later the the the christian

00:32:56.000 tradition uh polybius is looking at both the example of the um uh of the jewish revolt against the the

00:33:04.800 the hellenistic empires but also the armenian revolt there's there's both the armenians and the jews had a

00:33:12.800 uh uh a nation state a national state uh order and uh what he saw it which is already hinted to in in

00:33:22.720 in in scripture is the the the possibility that that the that the bonds of loyalty that unite the uh

00:33:31.120 the the the the the combined tribal armies that come together under uh the state of a single nation

00:33:39.920 that that those national national arm armies are uh they actually are able to hold their own against

00:33:48.560 imperial armies that are often much larger due to their motivation due to their familiarity with the

00:33:54.080 terrain due to due to their loyalty to one another you know the imperial armies are are are not necessarily

00:34:00.240 happy to be fighting for the empire whereas national armies tend to to a much greater degree to be willing

00:34:07.520 to sacrifice uh for their homeland and so so western the western tradition the christian tradition

00:34:14.960 ends up having uh these two examples um one of which is uh hebraic or jewish and is uh is uh inherently

00:34:25.360 nationalist and does not seek to conquer the world and the other the other of which is roman or you

00:34:31.120 know hellenistic in the sense of alexander um which which says come on peace and prosperity that's

00:34:37.680 through world conquest so there's a couple of people who have made alternative uh assertions as to

00:34:46.400 what the equilibrium point will be geopolitically uh one of them would be uh samuel huntington in clash

00:34:52.960 of civilizations discussing the civilizational block uh which would allow nation states but ultimately uh

00:34:59.520 seize the the collection of those with similar religious beliefs or cultural uh connections

00:35:06.080 ultimately forming a somewhat super national uh block that ultimately needs to will power uh guys

00:35:11.680 like alexander dugan have talked about how actually you need regional empires uh because the scale of

00:35:17.040 nations has become so vast uh and the advantages of the scale are too high uh to ultimately allow for

00:35:23.440 nation states to compete uh with globalization uh with globalists in general so you need something that's

00:35:28.800 larger than the nation but smaller than uh the globalist position and i'm concerned that while

00:35:35.040 ultimately i do wish for you know nation states to be the basis of this there's some truth to this

00:35:41.280 because i look at the work of someone like bertrand de juvenile and his metaphysics of power and the

00:35:45.680 need ultimately for power to constantly uh centralize itself and expand it seems that ultimately there is

00:35:52.640 perhaps an argument that the empire is uh the the political body that will ultimately be able to

00:35:59.200 stabilize control of a region and push back against others i think of someone like bill fredo

00:36:03.920 parado talking about how sparta's inability to truly spawn an empire kept it from being competitive inside

00:36:09.760 the greek paradigm uh that that there are situations in which nations that do not develop some imperial

00:36:15.520 ambition ultimately fall behind those that do and it seems that there is just a morphological life

00:36:21.680 cycle to civilizations in which they ultimately seek to impose their will beyond their natural borders and

00:36:27.680 whether that's wise or not whether that ultimately benefits the nation or not there seems to be a a

00:36:33.520 never-ending pull towards this result even if we might find perhaps that the ideal equilibrium would

00:36:39.600 like you said be best found in the nation well look there's a lot of important points that you just

00:36:45.600 you you you've just made um i look i try i do my best in you know in in the virtue of nationalism

00:36:53.680 you know out now in the second edition but also in in my other books i try i do everything i can to

00:36:59.280 try to avoid being um uh utopian about uh uh the the um the prince principles that i'm suggesting and i i

00:37:09.040 don't i i don't think that the the argument between um an independent nation or an imperial state i i think

00:37:19.280 the the argument is crucial but i don't i don't think that it's easily resolved you know it's like

00:37:25.040 it it's it's it's like you know reminds me the argument between uh between uh monarchy and uh and

00:37:32.560 republicanism and uh there there simply are competing uh compete competing virtues and advantages to these

00:37:40.720 to these different um uh ordering principles um which is to say that they do have some truth to them and

00:37:48.240 they you you you can't just say no it's simple they're you know simple and obvious um i would push

00:37:56.400 back to begin with by saying that uh that the the the the principle of constantly attempting to

00:38:05.760 centralize power um which which is absolutely real i mean it's it's it's not it's not just that it's

00:38:12.560 real to a certain extent that principle is crucial for human societies because because without having

00:38:20.960 uh um a uh an individual an elite uh uh um a a a leading group a ruling group that is is pushing to

00:38:31.440 decrease the degree of internal competition and anarchy without that it it's not possible to fight wars

00:38:39.360 it's it's not possible to win so that that centralizing tendency it's real i mean that's

00:38:45.920 that that is you know the the the the american constitution and and george uh washington's

00:38:52.880 party the federalists their uh their view was no you can't have 13 different countries because

00:39:00.240 we're each and one of these the these uh uh american independent states is going to fall they'll be

00:39:08.720 they'll be taken down but one by one and that that uh that argument is real and it's serious and it's

00:39:15.600 important and and i don't think anybody should should should dismiss it but there's an equally important

00:39:22.480 countervailing principle which which is that um that um uh despite you know all the predictions for

00:39:32.400 that the technology would you know would uh would eliminate the possibility of uh of successful uh

00:39:40.000 rebellion and dissent uh we're still at a at a place in history where where uh the countervailing

00:39:48.320 principle of leading uh leading a uh rebellion whether culture cultural political or military uh against the

00:39:58.320 centralized power uh that's also that's a that's a crucial countervailing principle that when uh that

00:40:07.200 when conquered tribes uh living under an imperial center uh when when uh or conquered nations living

00:40:14.720 under an imperial center they uh they they suffer from it they they feel the lack of freedom they they are

00:40:21.920 you know sometimes they're happy if you have a really really skilled emperor at the center then maybe you can

00:40:27.520 make them happy for a period but as a general like looking over at history uh nations uh resist because

00:40:37.600 they they feel the loss of freedom and dignity uh as something that's as painful as uh you know as the

00:40:44.480 potential death in war and and and hunger from from economic sanctions or disaster and that that's also a part of

00:40:55.040 being human and i think that the that um that uh people who are explicitly banging the drum for for empire

00:41:05.120 somebody like like like dugan and and you know more generally i mean this this is this is a problem with

00:41:12.960 uh with um uh russia historically is that russia's never been a nation state i'm not saying it can't be but i'm just

00:41:22.160 saying that historically uh russia uh russia never has been it it it inherited uh a thousand years ago the

00:41:29.200 the the uh the self-perception of being the third rome and uh and even you know even even to this day

00:41:38.560 it's not it's not clear uh that that the russians see the advantages of uh of a nation that doesn't go out and

00:41:48.080 you know conquer endlessly and i'm not saying that that that's putin's world view i'm i'm just saying

00:41:54.320 that that putin is that when when he speaks of nationalism you know he's talking about the ukrainians

00:42:01.200 and he he sees that as a completely negative thing he doesn't use nationalism as a positive thing and so

00:42:07.840 to a certain extent he really is uh inheriting the imperial tradition of a country that never saw itself

00:42:14.720 as uh as uh as an independent nation uh the way that uh the the english the the the scots the french

00:42:22.720 the the the poles uh the the uh you know the uh ancient ancient israel of course but definitely the

00:42:29.920 americans um and and by the way this this view of america as a nation rather than an empire i would say

00:42:39.680 that you know when when when i was uh when i was in college and ronald reagan was was president and

00:42:46.080 and margaret thatcher and and pope john paul ii today everybody kind of looks back and says oh those

00:42:52.800 were the you know those were the the the liberals and they sold out i i i understand the arguments that

00:42:58.720 there's something to it but fundamentally i think people who weren't alive then don't don't understand

00:43:05.440 that uh americans during the 1980s saw themselves as an independent nation wishing for the independence

00:43:13.360 of of of other nations so you can say it was never quite like that but that's the way they saw themselves

00:43:20.080 and the and and so if if you asked american leaders um of both parties if you if you ask them

00:43:28.480 it is america's goal to to dominate dominate the world through through empire or to be an independent

00:43:35.680 nation um guided by its own traditions and its own inheritance to seek its own good everybody would

00:43:43.920 have said the second one back then now things have changed but it wasn't that long ago that americans

00:43:51.760 knew that they were a nation not an empire and and believed in that yeah i guess the difficulty i

00:43:58.240 think is probably the shifting definition i think that a lot of americans would like to have believed

00:44:02.960 themselves to be in that scenario but i would argue that really since the incorporation doctrine

00:44:08.400 you know taken out of the 14th amendment it's very difficult for the united states to actually

00:44:12.960 function as as a nation in a real way and and and this is one of the problems i think with the nation

00:44:18.080 state itself a lot of people because of this being their default understanding of government

00:44:23.440 have just conflated the state and the nation uh they don't understand that these are these you

00:44:28.560 know we're traditionally not always the same thing and so where the the the nation is only defined by

00:44:34.640 the legal auspices of the federal government not by having any you know identity as as a separate

00:44:40.720 people with a specific way of of life but another problem that we face is that you know as part of the

00:44:47.520 liberal international order uh the united states seeing itself as a liberal democratic nation wants

00:44:53.840 everyone else to be a liberal democratic nation so that they can interact with them in the way that

00:44:58.080 liberal democratic nations do and so they end up creating world orders of liberal democratic nations

00:45:05.920 who want to impose that way of life on other nations and of you as you pointed out russia is not suited to

00:45:11.120 this perhaps uh you know samuel huntington uh pointed out that this is why uh you know uh middle eastern

00:45:17.680 islamic uh civilization has had such a problem in the modern day because they never saw that there's

00:45:23.920 not a lot of uh the idea of a uh nation state doesn't really exist in islam under his his framing it's

00:45:31.280 you go from tribes to empires and the the idea of the in-between there doesn't really exist and so

00:45:36.640 that's why it has a such a hard problem fitting into this nation state order now i think we would

00:45:41.600 both argue that the idea that what we have currently now is truly a nation state order is incorrect

00:45:46.880 because ultimately these things have been subsumed into things like the eu or nato or these these other

00:45:51.680 larger entities but doesn't that also point to the fact that it's very easy to call yourself a nation

00:45:56.960 state but then fall back into this imperial model the minute that you kind of take a step out of that

00:46:03.440 you know you can continue to perpetuate the narrative of nation state uh order but that's not really

00:46:08.480 what you're building there internationally well i agree with i agree with that too look let me

00:46:15.920 before we go to the the incorporation uh through the 14th amendment just just let me say something

00:46:21.680 about huntington because i i i don't want to give the impression that i think that huntington is wrong

00:46:28.000 and that you know that nations are the basic building block and civilizations are are just not

00:46:34.080 relevant i i i actually i i actually think that you know his my own view is much much closer to his um in

00:46:42.560 in my books i i refer to families of nations and i think um i i think it's you know it it it's very obvious

00:46:51.760 that of course there have been uh uh wars internal to to christendom wars internal to to to the west but um but

00:47:01.120 the capacity of western uh nations to band together in the face of uh uh of danger uh is not only the

00:47:12.480 result of you know a a hegemonic imperial center it is also the result of uh the the civilizational pull

00:47:21.200 that huntington is talking about which is genuine and real uh it you know it it doesn't always uh

00:47:27.840 triumph i mean you you you you do get uh uh christian countries allying themselves with the

00:47:33.600 ottoman empire in order to uh help help their their their power struggles internal to europe and and you

00:47:41.280 know that that's familiar also but you know all the way all the i mean even in plato's republic like

00:47:48.720 going all the way back then there um uh uh plato has socrates asserting that when the uh when the

00:47:58.960 greeks you know who had never had it uh and a united nation state um but but when the greek city states

00:48:06.320 when they fight one another when they war against one another he says that they are sick and when they

00:48:13.680 band together in order to uh to to to fight the barbarians that's healthy that that uh that is

00:48:22.880 something that i think if you if you combine that with huntington's um correct view that that there

00:48:31.040 are these these mac macro civilizational uh structures that even though they're frequently internally divided

00:48:39.200 they are wrestling with one another for uh for safety and for for dominance i i think that that

00:48:45.440 gives you i i think that really does give you a a a much more complete view of the context in which

00:48:53.440 the western idea of national independence in the nation state uh is uh functioning so now let's go to your

00:49:00.880 your your comment on on the 14th amendment because i i completely agree with this in fact um just a few weeks

00:49:07.520 ago uh time and klein and josh hammer and i published a very very long like we were trying to make it like

00:49:14.320 the definitive essay uh against uh separation of church and state in the united states and and making

00:49:20.720 the argument that it's both completely destructive and utterly historical and of course the the

00:49:26.800 instrumentality is the one that you're pointing out that that you know it's not until 1940 that uh in in

00:49:35.280 cantwell that you get the the idea that the first amendment's religion clauses need to be imposed

00:49:41.840 on all of the you know all of the 48 states taking away their their original long-standing

00:49:49.840 constitutional uh responsibility right and duty to uh to uh support religion each according to its own

00:49:59.040 uh traditions and and and understanding and i i agree with you that the and i mean this is the the

00:50:07.600 argument in my book against uh against federalism as a solution is not it's not an argument that's intended

00:50:15.280 to say no we should centralize everything it's an argument that says take a look the problem with federalism

00:50:22.400 is that it tends to uh to devolve into uh the uh the imperial center uh or the national center whatever

00:50:34.320 you want to call it it tends to to devolve into an imperial center that takes away uh the freedoms of

00:50:42.320 all of the uh subordinate tribes or regions or subcultures and try to impose a uniformity and i also

00:50:51.120 completely agree with you that this this is particularly um true of liberalism because liberalism

00:50:58.880 doesn't recognize at its foundations the importance of group freedoms of tribal of family tribal and and

00:51:07.840 national freedoms within larger alliances and structures that that means that that if you're

00:51:13.440 a strict thoroughgoing liberal you don't have the bible and you don't have other sources that you can

00:51:18.160 rely on mixed in and you just go with with liberalism there are no resources from for for liberalism to

00:51:26.240 prevent itself from becoming napoleonic from saying uh liberty and equality that's the the truth and the only

00:51:33.520 truth and i i i set out to conquer all the nations of the earth to impose uh impose liberalism and and

00:51:39.600 and i mean people don't think about this but the the the sad truth is that uh american uh liberal

00:51:48.000 internationalism you know what what a lot of people call new neoconservatism but you know not the

00:51:53.920 neoconservatism of irving crystal but the neoconservatism of the second generation of neoconservatives

00:52:00.160 uh that that that is it it is jacobinism jacobinism it is an extremely close relation of uh napoleonic

00:52:11.120 wars setting out to make the world safe for liberalism by imposing it on everyone whether they

00:52:16.960 want it or not so uh one of the answers that well i should say it this way uh so one of the big uh

00:52:28.000 misconceptions that i tried i i kind of talked about in my book the total state is the uh

00:52:33.920 misunderstanding of what actually restricts government power that ultimately the abstract

00:52:39.040 constitution and the fact that you have three branches is not itself what's important about

00:52:43.680 actually restraining the government and its ability to to kind of run over local cultures and and

00:52:49.120 families and ways of life the thing that actually prevents that is other social powers other spheres

00:52:54.640 of sovereignty inside your nation the church uh others and this is ultimately what's required to

00:52:59.920 push back and that these different forces were you know represented in the government were supposed to

00:53:05.520 be representations of the states because the states had definitive cultures and ways of life that they

00:53:11.200 wanted to preserve and by having this representation these checks and balances you allowed for central

00:53:16.640 government that ultimately did not overrun these issues now ultimately this wore away and people adopted a

00:53:22.560 very mechanical understanding well if you you just have these checks and balances technically somewhere

00:53:27.520 abstractly in the constitution then when government comes for your rights then you know you'll you'll

00:53:32.560 solve this problem you'll have the barrier of the uh you know the the your the bill of rights and

00:53:36.880 these kind of things but ultimately when we saw covet and these other issues in the united states it was

00:53:41.200 very clear that actually the central government is very good at running over all of these rights and

00:53:45.280 the only thing that really seemed to push back against them were religious communities that had uh said no i i i

00:53:50.560 don't care what the government says i don't care what the central authority says i have a culture

00:53:54.480 i have a way i have a tribe that tells me this is more important than what we're doing here um

00:53:59.600 the the problem of course is that most of those social forces have been uh you know uh have disintegrated

00:54:05.920 in the united states one of the solutions that was put forward was by john c calhoun who talked about

00:54:11.520 the concurrent majority and the idea of the concurrent majority is that you need all of these different tribal groups

00:54:16.560 these different social interests to provide assent before the central government can take action do

00:54:23.040 you think that that creates a level of balance that can preserve the interests of these different tribes

00:54:27.920 or social forces or you think ultimately that erodes the nation states ability to operate too much in a

00:54:33.520 larger geopolitical environment no i think the problem is i i i i i hope you can you can bear this answer

00:54:43.920 because i don't intend it glibly i think the problem is that the um that that there are

00:54:52.800 problems there are certain problems or dilemmas conflicts between complete competing uh true and

00:55:01.120 important principles there are such dilemmas which are not soluble in principle okay because uh and and this

00:55:10.160 is this is this is a little bit it's a little bit that you know the difference between our inherited you

00:55:16.080 know the the the inherited greek view of political political philosophy political theory which which

00:55:23.920 which thinks which which assumes that uh that that there is a best constitution which can you know kind of

00:55:31.920 solve most of your problems um now i i i'm not actually i don't i don't actually think that either

00:55:40.080 plato or aristotle were utopian in that way but the the focus on uh on the mechanisms like let's let's come

00:55:49.520 up with a better mechanism um and i i i mean agree there can be better mechanisms there can be improved

00:55:55.440 mechanism the problem it's not fundamentally a system's problem it's not right fundamentally and and again

00:56:02.320 this is kind of the i think this is kind of the biblical view is is is that that if you've got a um if

00:56:11.040 you've got people um uh who are uh virtuous not not only in the sense that that they're self-disciplined

00:56:20.640 and they're willing to to to sacrifice but also the the there is a a a virtue of giving honor to

00:56:29.760 giving honor and space to the tribes okay and this is the this famous conflict of you know

00:56:36.560 solomon's kind of like the big the big imperialist and his son rechavam inherits and the tribes come the

00:56:45.760 the the ten northern tribes come to the new young king and they say to him um we're oppressed you

00:56:52.160 you know you you're you're you're you're your father uh took away our freedoms and he took away

00:56:57.360 our money and and and lighten our load and and and we'll be loyal to you and uh and he consults with you

00:57:03.680 know like his young men and he says and he ignores the you know the elders who say the elders who say

00:57:08.880 you know give them what they want give them honor but the young men you know this is maybe some of

00:57:14.000 this is on happening on on on uh the new right a little bit also that the that the young men they

00:57:19.920 don't want to give honor to to the others and they said that they tell the new king no just step

00:57:25.040 on them and he and he says that's it you know i i'm going to increase your burden i i i'm going to

00:57:30.800 be much more fearsome than my father was and and so they split the kingdom and i i think the message

00:57:37.840 here is is is it's not an anti-monarchical message it's not against the centralization of power it you

00:57:47.040 need to centralize power but the problem is that if it's not if it's not um wielded with wisdom where

00:57:54.080 wisdom uh requires requires giving honor to the different subdivisions giving them space giving them

00:58:02.000 freedom if if you if you can't do that then then you as the ruler you'll you'll in the end you'll

00:58:09.360 oppress them for a certain time but in the end they'll rebel and they'll be gone and and so i i

00:58:14.960 don't you you can definitely develop traditions of the kind that you're talking about i mean today

00:58:20.960 the united states is so so far in the centralizing imperial theory that uh that you know almost any degree

00:58:30.960 of going back to federalism giving power back to the states um has has got to be good i i think but

00:58:39.520 the the the question is whether whether there's any way to write again as you said to to write into

00:58:46.640 a paper document you know a rule that says um that says uh the states will make you know wherever the the

00:58:55.920 the states make a decision on here's a list of topics the federal government has has to give in

00:59:02.320 on this list or on or on all topics it it it it can be helpful in a given moment to think and talk like

00:59:09.520 that but it doesn't really solve the problem the problem is that that if what the states are going to do

00:59:15.600 with their you know with with with with their constitutional liberties is to uh is to um uh create

00:59:27.440 uh violent corrupt decadent anarchy like that's what they're going to do with their freedom

00:59:36.080 then then you and i will then you know be forced at a certain point to go back and say look this has just

00:59:42.960 gone too far and the the if if they're decent people in the central government then then they

00:59:48.960 need they need to go to los angeles they need to impose order you can't it you see what i'm saying

00:59:54.800 there's just in the end uh it comes down to you know who's being righteous who's being good who's making

01:00:05.120 sense who's you know uh actually objectively contributing to the uh to the capacity to

01:00:12.800 hold the nation together and for it for it to give a decent life life to people and if that's the federal

01:00:18.320 government then then you know then then i'll say more power to the federal government and if it's the

01:00:23.920 uh if uh if it's the states please more power to the states i also uh support uh reconstructing

01:00:32.880 california and washington dc so uh i'm with you there um and and you're right that ultimately you

01:00:38.480 know this this it's not a systems issue it's a virtue issue if you have if you're living in

01:00:43.440 accord with virtue if you have society that can uh that can cultivate virtue uh then the scale at which

01:00:48.880 it does that uh will depend on the way of being of that those people and that that was ultimately i

01:00:54.080 think bertrand de juvenile's point that you know it's not this it's not the power of government or the

01:00:58.480 size of government that ultimately uh offends people or causes them to chafe under rule it's

01:01:04.080 the foreignness or the the uh discord with which uh other ways of being are imposed on them ways of

01:01:11.280 life that are not their own that are not to their own understanding that don't accord with their beliefs

01:01:15.520 and their religion and their traditions these are the things that actually feel tyrannical to people

01:01:20.080 not not the abstract possession of a certain type of power concentrated somewhere theoretically inside the

01:01:26.480 government and so uh i think we could talk on this issue for quite a while i certainly would love to

01:01:31.600 uh however uh if i didn't get to some of the current day stuff the audience would kill me so uh maybe we

01:01:37.760 can a little bit to to to uh to current events um i don't know how much time you have uh but uh but i'm

01:01:46.160 okay okay just didn't want to monopolize your time so one of the issues as i think america's starting to

01:01:53.760 explore a more openly nationalistic understanding of itself that it's concerned about is uh whether or

01:02:01.280 not it can have a certain level of self-determination and a number of the things that uh people on the

01:02:06.320 right have started to run into uh and have started to try to figure out when i'm one of these people

01:02:12.560 is that whenever we talk about self-determination or talk about our ability to make decisions on our

01:02:18.240 own for what would be good for a nation something we've run up to up against is uh you know basically

01:02:23.680 the existence of other foreign interests inside the united states and when i talk about this for

01:02:28.960 instance for several years with ukraine and talking about how i don't think the ukrainian war is

01:02:33.840 ultimately i i don't like putin i'm not a fan of russia i understand why ukrainians would be fighting

01:02:38.880 against what's happening there we can have a larger debate about nato expansion and whether this is the

01:02:43.200 actual uh justification for this or not but but ultimately you know my opposition to the ukrainian

01:02:49.120 war was not i'm not a peacenik i don't i'm not uh you know i can't believe we've ever gone to war

01:02:53.840 ever like this is what nations do you know this this is part of life uh but you know this was not

01:02:58.960 a think of war ultimately in our interest it was something that we were obviously fighting a proxy war

01:03:04.160 with a nation that we did not need to be involving ourselves with and so i had opposition to the fact

01:03:09.120 that zelinski is coming here and demanding money and and uh you know support and all these other

01:03:14.000 things that i think ultimately were not in the interest of the united states and when i made those

01:03:18.720 arguments there was zero problem i got called a russian asian a few times by leftists but ultimately

01:03:22.960 like people understood you know a lot of people on the right yes we understand yeah we're not just

01:03:27.280 for any war because it's a war we understand that these things if conducted need to be done explicitly

01:03:32.640 in the interest of the united states and its people one of the things we've been running into now

01:03:36.960 is that a lot of times when we're discussing the american national interest we have american

01:03:41.680 politicians say things like ted cruz saying well i went into the senate to be the greatest champion

01:03:48.240 of israel or tammy bruce being a spokesperson for you know the department of defense they're saying

01:03:54.080 well israel is the greatest country in the world the united states is behind it i'm not gonna you know

01:03:58.640 i'm not demanding that you answer for these things like dispensational christianity is not your fault

01:04:04.160 as someone who came from the evangelical dispensationalist world i i totally i know these

01:04:09.840 people these are my people i get where this comes from i'm not like oh this is all some crazy scheme

01:04:15.120 implanted into the united states however this is not i think healthy i don't think it's healthy

01:04:19.760 for the united states i don't think it's healthy for israel i think a lot of people are noticing

01:04:23.840 this is really unhealthy and when we see the trump administration do things like say well americans

01:04:28.640 can't get disaster relief if they have an opinion on a specific foreign government it's like that

01:04:34.560 that's concerning i don't like the people who are doing the bds stuff they hate me they hate my guts

01:04:38.720 they hate my religion yeah these i have no sympathy for for them or hamas or any of these people but i

01:04:44.320 would like to be able to express my concern over these policies and the fact that they may not be

01:04:48.880 fording the interest of my nation without immediately being called like an anti-semite or a crazy

01:04:53.360 groiper and nick fuentes fanboy it'd be nice if if you can if you can just say here are my nation's

01:04:59.280 interests this is what i'm concerned about can we have a conversation about that without like everyone

01:05:03.280 losing their mind yeah well look um there's you know as often happen i mean there there's there's a

01:05:13.600 combination of things at the moment um and and some well let's let's begin with with uh with ukraine and

01:05:22.400 then and then and then swerve back to jews and israel um no just because i think at this particular

01:05:29.280 moment the the the uh the the emotions are running really really high on uh on jews and israel i'm

01:05:36.400 not saying i don't want to be the understatement of the year yes yes yeah so i'm i'm happy to talk

01:05:41.600 about it i think it's important to talk about it but let's talk about just the the the theory for for

01:05:48.160 for a moment sure before we get to this the less charged example yeah absolutely yeah so um

01:05:55.200 look to let's start with something uh with a couple of basic things one um we've already discussed

01:06:03.760 uh napoleonic america you know the the the uh the neoliberal and neoconservative theory that america is

01:06:11.840 the world's policeman um you know not not just that it's the arsenal of democracy that it can you know

01:06:18.560 create weapons that can help people but but that actually the united states has primary security

01:06:24.480 responsibility for the you know for the entire globe and um that so so number one that's a terrible

01:06:34.560 foolish idea i mean that is that it it was foolish to begin with like it was foolish it immediately

01:06:42.000 you know when uh when when uh uh neoconservatives uh were writing about in the 1990s it was foolish

01:06:49.600 when when george w bush started you know talking about uh a new world order and you know for hundreds of

01:06:58.160 for a hundred generations we've we've tried to get here but now now we've gotten it we're going to

01:07:02.480 replace the the the law of the jungle with the with with the rule of law all of this fantastic nonsense

01:07:09.040 about you know about how the united states both has the ability and the moral obligation to you know

01:07:16.880 to to just take over every part of the world and and ensure liberalism everywhere okay so we can i i

01:07:24.480 think that probably you're you know most of your audience can can agree that that that's a foolish

01:07:29.920 worldview it was inherently foolish to begin with and then it proved itself to be foolish in in all

01:07:35.280 sorts of situations one of which was the the um the the eastward expansion of of nato and the european

01:07:43.920 union in which uh people with some degree of common sense kept saying uh no you can't you you can't keep

01:07:55.120 expanding indefinitely in the end if you expand indefinitely you're going to provoke people and

01:08:00.480 this is not an obviously this is a realist argument it's a it's an empirical argument it's not an

01:08:05.920 argument for you know um vladimir putin is a good guy or a bad guy it's an empirical argument if you expand

01:08:14.080 indefinitely in the end you're going to cause people to to say i have i have to i have to fight no

01:08:21.920 matter what and and you know or i'm finished so um neo neo liberalism and neo conservatism these

01:08:32.000 you know sort of silly twin names for basically the same thing um it it led to many foolish policies

01:08:39.760 including you know the invaded trying to to bring liberalism to afghanistan many many foolish policies

01:08:46.400 so on the one hand there is appropriately a rejection of that and you know here i you know

01:08:54.000 this is just one of the things that uh that i i so admire about president trump for putting the uh so

01:09:02.080 clearly on the agenda um europeans are wealthy countries um we we america cannot be have primary

01:09:13.040 security responsibility for europe americans can't pay for it they can't send their kids to go

01:09:18.240 fight on you know uh uh it on the other side of the planet and certainly not in a case where you

01:09:25.200 have you know a hundred you know what was it 400 500 million people in europe and and and all this

01:09:31.600 all this money and they they feel like okay great america should take care of us america should should

01:09:37.760 should be responsible because it's their moral responsibility because you know liberal morality

01:09:42.800 says they have to do it well so good for good for trump and for the whole nationalist and nat con

01:09:49.680 movement and for for mega good good for all these uh uh um revisions which say give me a break

01:09:58.720 like you know uh there is an argument to be made for for uh for ukrainian independence but it's not an

01:10:05.600 argument for america to impose ukrainian independence that i mean that's that this is crazy it's crazy

01:10:12.000 talk and the the move towards um uh saying you know number one if you know uh america to to the to

01:10:21.920 the extent that it has a uh a security security problems uh serious security problems it has to think

01:10:28.240 about it's number one the rivalry with china which no no other democracy can handle it has to be america

01:10:34.800 that that that's leading on that there is no other choice and uh and and uh number two the uh the

01:10:41.440 the spread of neo-marxist revolution and and its alliance with the muslim brotherhood and the the

01:10:48.080 the spread of a supremacist uh islam taking over you know this the the taking over london and and and

01:10:56.240 imposing its will this set of issues that america has to deal with at home do not justify the united

01:11:03.360 states being you know like taking primary responsibility for the security of europe or

01:11:08.240 the middle east or south asia or or any any other distant distant region okay so i'm i i hope i've

01:11:16.400 you know made made my position on on that clear that i don't think americans have a political or moral

01:11:24.960 responsibility to be to have primary security responsibility for other regions just period okay

01:11:31.200 so now let's talk about yeah go ahead but we're now we're going to talk about jews in israel yeah

01:11:36.000 sure and i was just going to interject quickly that the you know this is the basic you know

01:11:40.480 carl schmidt's expansion of uh of hobbes's protection and sovereignty paradigm i think is

01:11:46.640 pretty key here you simply cannot act as a as a sovereign nation have any level of sovereignty yourself

01:11:51.760 or self-determination if you're not responsible for your own protection anyone handing that over we can

01:11:56.240 disagree with the anthropology of hobbes but he's right about this that if if someone else is

01:12:00.160 responsible for your protection your well-being you're necessarily going to be seeding your your

01:12:04.960 self-determination and your identity to that you will you will create an imperial relationship whether

01:12:10.560 that was the intention or not and so this is one of many reasons uh ultimately i think it's good for

01:12:16.480 europe and many other nations to recapture responsibility for their own protection because as long as that

01:12:22.080 relationship between protector uh and protectee exists you will have ceded your sovereignty to

01:12:27.680 whatever high authority is now involved absolutely absolutely agree so now i'll say something that

01:12:35.360 that is um i i know some people will take it skeptically but i i i'm describing the uh the the israeli

01:12:45.680 tradition that i inherited for people who don't know i was i was born born in israel i grew up in the

01:12:51.840 united states that's why i sound like i'm from new jersey but um but i was born in israel to uh to

01:12:58.480 uh israeli parents um uh and uh and after after college my my wife and i went back to israel um i i

01:13:08.000 served for 18 years in in uh the reserves in in the israeli military um my my wife and i have uh have uh

01:13:15.600 uh uh nine uh nine children nine children and and increasing numbers of thank god of of grandchildren

01:13:23.280 and uh so we have uh we have children who've served in in the israeli army and you know like this week

01:13:30.480 not just you know like a long time ago but now in the present war we have uh um children uh who've served

01:13:38.320 in uh in you know other security services and um and uh the as somebody who grew up with you know

01:13:48.880 with the israeli jewish tradition uh people can be skeptical all they want but this is our self

01:13:55.280 self-perception this is the way that uh that israelis understand themselves and part of when you use the

01:14:01.200 word zionism zionism is a term that it means jewish nationalism it means support for the for the

01:14:08.560 existence of an independent jewish nation and so part of the zionist jewish tradition is the is an

01:14:16.000 extremely hostile uh view towards um towards the the involvement of foreign actors uh on the battlefield

01:14:25.920 the the the the you know the famous ideology the founding ideology of david ben-gurion um was uh was

01:14:34.960 focused on uh exactly what you were just describing i mean the the the same idea that independence could

01:14:42.800 not independence cannot exist if you don't have your own army and if that army is not responsible and

01:14:50.480 capable of of of of doing the fighting wherever it's necessary in in in order to uh to to uh to

01:14:58.720 protect your people so you know we can we if you want we can get into you know why are americans skeptical

01:15:05.920 of that but from the perspective of israelis and i'm not talking about just you know a right or left thing

01:15:12.720 i'm talking about the the way that israelis perceive themselves they don't they don't want american

01:15:20.720 forces uh fighting wars for israel that you know the the that that's true in general of the israeli

01:15:27.920 public it's also true that under biden the uh the the the dependence on uh uh american um american

01:15:37.920 weapon systems and and uh the the the aid that pays and for it first in part for the american weapon

01:15:44.640 systems all of that during the um uh the the the the year between um october 7th 2023 and the hamas uh

01:15:56.960 invasion and the beginning of the this two-year-long israeli-ran war uh the there was a whole year where

01:16:03.040 biden was in charge and israel was uh and again i'm i'm giving you an insight into the subjective like

01:16:10.000 how israelis of all all parties felt about this the feeling that israel is on a leash the feeling

01:16:16.160 that every every military move uh has to be uh negotiated and agreed on with an american

01:16:24.720 administration that in many ways just doesn't want israel to win the war i mean i don't i don't think

01:16:29.280 that's that's true of the trump administration but it was certainly true of the biden administration that

01:16:33.920 they had this whole obama theory of like peace would come to the middle east through balancing

01:16:38.960 iran against israel and israelis felt um uh humiliated micromanaged and and betrayed so don't

01:16:49.520 you shouldn't think that israelis are you know unhappy with you know just happy with the relationship the

01:16:54.720 way the the way it exists and the your your audience can definitely you know come up with

01:17:01.520 with counter examples like you know what why does why why doesn't is netanyahu why are netanyahu and

01:17:08.560 trump talking about trump sending troops into gaza why are netanyahu and trump talking about american

01:17:15.440 troops you know supervising the the autonomy of the druze in southern syria and so now i'm expressing

01:17:24.240 my personal opinion which i think is in generally in general i think that i can speak for most of

01:17:30.480 the israeli right but let's take it as my my personal opinion not the opinion of all israelis my

01:17:36.880 opinion is that that the that every time that america tries to solve an israeli problem by sending

01:17:45.920 american troops to to you know probably anywhere in the region but certainly to um you know to to these

01:17:53.840 local border regions to gaza and southern syria instead of uh instead of israel taking care of

01:18:00.480 it it's bad for america it is exactly this kind of micromanaging uh imperial entanglement that that

01:18:10.160 that uh you know it just gets the people in washington sitting and thinking about you know

01:18:15.280 the different streets in gaza and which one should you you know it it's bad for america but it's also bad

01:18:21.200 for israel because israel is now a strong country i think that was you know demonstrated pretty well

01:18:26.320 in the last couple of years israel you know can't do everything it might need some help on you know

01:18:32.160 if the united states has b2 bombers um and uh and bunker busters and it doesn't want to lease them to

01:18:38.800 israel to to fly them so there are reasons why donald trump might say okay for 37 hours we're going to

01:18:46.320 uh intervene in in in iran but that's not the principle the principle needs to be

01:18:55.680 and by the way i think that this basically is the trump doctrine i don't think i i don't think that

01:19:00.640 president trump would actually disagree with the principle the principle has to be israel has been

01:19:06.800 fighting its war its own war on its own dime for mostly for for for uh for two years when i mean on its

01:19:15.600 own dime i mean i i i hope also to see uh the the uh the the the aid come to an end and many many

01:19:22.160 israelis would like to see that also but but i think the really crucial thing is the uh is the fact that

01:19:29.680 you know we for two years we've been fighting uh there there are a thousand israeli military dead

01:19:36.640 there are thousands and thousands of casualties and and this uh uprooting the iranian the anti-american

01:19:46.320 anti-christian anti-jewish anti-israeli american empire uprooting it destroying it rolling it back

01:19:53.680 and containing it that is something that israelis took upon themselves and they should take upon

01:20:00.160 themselves and it should not be america's war the the whole point is america doesn't need to run this

01:20:06.480 region israel and and its allies can take responsibility primary security responsibility

01:20:13.200 for this region and america should take their boys and their girls home and and and worry about

01:20:18.240 america america really needs to worry about itself i i i think that that is a um uh a general

01:20:25.680 sentiment a general principle that president trump would agree with and and i think that

01:20:30.880 certainly on the israeli right that that would would uh um have a very great deal of of support

01:20:37.360 if we were talking about it in that way and you know i'm glad to hear a lot of that i think a lot

01:20:42.800 of people would be happy to hear that and agree with that and i think you know if we were having a

01:20:48.320 sensible conversation all of those points would went out i think across uh most most people on the right

01:20:53.920 the problem is this and and uh you know again i i just want to be able to have this conversation

01:21:00.240 without people shrieking uh but that does not seem to be the case uh this is as you pointed out when

01:21:05.920 we were even entering this this is an incredibly loaded issue at this point and so simply laying

01:21:11.040 out you know the the basic facts about national sovereignty and why it would be important to both

01:21:15.520 groups to kind of disentangle their security concerns from each other in this way uh these things are

01:21:20.800 immediately uh met with great hostility and charges of anti-semitism and support of hamas and all these

01:21:27.760 things and look i i understand that there's like a faction of the right that's like yeah israel controls

01:21:32.480 everything so we got to back all the muslims who also want to murder us and you know decapitate us

01:21:37.520 and kill all of our friends but yeah for some reason you know like that is all very stupid right

01:21:41.760 like that's all that's all ridiculous people involving themselves in that probably have obsessed

01:21:46.160 themselves with hate to the point where they're backing forces that hate them just to do this and

01:21:50.720 and this is i'm trying to strike this you know george washington's balance right in his farewell

01:21:54.560 address he says we should not have nations that we hate so uh you know in so far that we have this

01:22:00.480 like destroy carthage mentality and this drives us to make all kinds of terrible decisions in that

01:22:05.120 direction but we also should not have favored nations we should not have nations with special

01:22:09.120 relationships uh we we should ultimately because if we do it's going to conflate the interest of that

01:22:13.600 nation with our nation it's going to create factions inside our own nation that will use

01:22:18.160 loyalty to that nation or against that nation as wedge points that will you know this is all in

01:22:22.720 nation in washington's farewell address so this is well established american foreign policy inside

01:22:28.640 our founding you know father's uh you know wishes and and yet when i try to explain this basic concern

01:22:35.280 especially to many conservatives they they become very rabid about this fact that no ultimately we

01:22:40.960 we cannot you know we can never disentangle ourselves from israel now again i'm not gonna

01:22:46.400 make you answer for dispensational christianity that's not that's its own problem we're working

01:22:50.480 on that over here you know uh that that's not something but one thing that i i do think is true

01:22:55.040 honestly if i'm just being honest i think it's pretty clear that many israeli officials and leaders

01:23:00.320 are willing to play and you know make make make make deals with uh what is ultimately an unhealthy

01:23:06.400 obsession with their nation by many people in the united states if it benefits them and so it's like

01:23:12.080 well yes we can win i heard this a lot we can win the war on our own israel can win its war on its own

01:23:16.720 it doesn't need the united states until it does right and and this is the the problem that we keep running

01:23:21.920 into yes in theory uh the aid is is only a few billion dollars every year which we shouldn't be sending

01:23:27.920 over anyway i think we both agree about that and would like to see it end uh but it's not just that

01:23:32.960 right obviously we're we're sending aircraft carriers you know to back up operations and all

01:23:37.120 these other things we are sending bombers and all these other things that are part of israeli operations

01:23:42.320 and this creates a scenario in which people can see repeatedly uh that you know when it is advantageous

01:23:49.040 for israel whether it's you know occupying gaza or figuring out maybe relocating the gaza and somewhere

01:23:56.160 else all of a sudden the discussion of the united states involvement becomes critical and so really

01:24:00.800 it's like well we don't want the united states involved until we obviously need them involved

01:24:05.600 and then actually that principle just kind of goes out the window and for me it's kind of well i i need

01:24:10.800 to see some consistency right if if if the israeli right really does want to see the united states

01:24:16.080 extricate itself from these conflicts and wants to be sovereign over its own uh defense then i need

01:24:21.280 to hear directly from leaders that that's the case i need to see people leaders on on the israeli right

01:24:27.280 who say actually i am pushing actively to end this aid i don't want it anymore we i am pushing my

01:24:32.960 government to no longer request these instances of the united states and military operations i no

01:24:37.280 longer need that anymore i'm asking american politicians to not come over here and pray that

01:24:42.320 the united states will always center its policies on israel like it would be nice to hear these things

01:24:48.000 very directly in the pushback and and pointing out that those who recognize that this is unhealthy for

01:24:53.920 both nations on the american right are not themselves some crazy people who are like

01:24:58.320 embracing terrorism islamic terrorism around the world i i i think what you're asking for is pretty

01:25:06.400 is uh is is pretty reasonable um i i i hesitate only on one point i i i i think that there is

01:25:14.800 uh currently um uh on the the the nationalist right there is a well there's an exaggeration of of many

01:25:26.560 things in in some sections of the nationalist right having to do with uh uh with um uh with jewish power

01:25:34.480 and israeli power part of part of this is um the i look i i think you're right that

01:25:45.360 that just like americans have been trained by uh liberal internationalism and neoconservatism to think

01:25:53.840 of uh america as uh responsible uh financially morally militarily for for everything in the world

01:26:03.680 and um just as uh americans have been trained to to think that way europeans have been trained to think

01:26:12.080 that way certainly there are israelis who in in different ways have been trained to think that way

01:26:18.560 and um i i'm just i i'm a little bit worried about the the tendency to put the causation

01:26:27.760 with jews right i'm not not saying you know that uh that um that israelis don't ever an interest in a

01:26:36.720 perspective they do and american jews also have an interest in a perspective uh which which in in

01:26:42.640 in in in some cases use use very closely to uh to the israeli perspective but not not at all in all

01:26:50.560 cases but i i i don't want to arrive at this kind of bizarre conclusion that people like uh that an

01:27:00.960 administration like uh president trump and vice president vance and secretary of state rubio and

01:27:09.040 and the you know the top 50 people uh around them pete hagseth and tuli gabbert and all the

01:27:15.680 the rest of these people that that look we we know these people you know that many many of them are

01:27:23.280 people who are that they're they're they're personal acquaintances and and sometimes close friends of

01:27:28.400 mine and as a movement as the the uh as the nat cons we know who's these people are and we know what

01:27:34.960 they believe and the the there's something creepy about the fact that um that um that uh president

01:27:48.400 trump gets into into the white house and he's um rolling back and reconstructing the uh the american

01:27:58.160 alliance system uh around the world you know it doesn't happen overnight it's something that but

01:28:03.920 he he started doing this in his first term and now he's aggressively pursuing the reconstruction of

01:28:10.080 the american uh alliance system around the world and the uh the the idea that president trump and the

01:28:18.720 people around him are you know they're such they're marionettes they're like so completely controlled

01:28:24.880 you know by some kind of uh uh uh jewish jewish cabal that they that they can't understand that

01:28:34.080 america should not conquer iran that they can't understand that a 20-year occupation of iran is

01:28:39.040 a real danger and it would be incredibly stupid and they shouldn't do it that they can't understand

01:28:44.640 that attempting to impose liberal democracy in iran or any place else in the middle east is is

01:28:50.160 is a fool's errand of course they understand it and so and so i'm i'm i'm troubled by the the

01:28:56.960 hysterical attacks you know first before before the strike on uh on on uh and and you know just an

01:29:06.560 asterisk here um the the israeli military planned the what the israelis would do uh in order to win the

01:29:19.040 war without american uh involvement with the the involvement of americans uh as combatants now

01:29:26.560 israel i don't think israel uh has the capacity to uh single-handedly alone defend itself uh against

01:29:35.440 uh against missile attack and i'm not sure any any democratic country in america even america can

01:29:42.320 single-handedly deal with incoming missile attack with the current situation in in technological

01:29:47.680 situation so i i actually think the fact that that americans european european militaries arab

01:29:53.680 militaries were all all involved in you know shooting down these incoming missiles i i don't see that as

01:30:00.880 the same question as americans going in and fighting for israel or risking their lives for israel i think

01:30:08.400 that's a different situation but set that asterisk aside you know whether whether whether the the

01:30:15.520 israelis had a plan for how to do this themselves okay and that was said repeatedly uh the the israeli

01:30:22.640 foreign minister was was uh was also a long-time friend you know and sar said it repeatedly the

01:30:28.240 israeli national security advisor tzachian egby said it repeatedly that if if israel needs to go alone

01:30:37.920 into iran to attack these sites we're going to do it and and we we know what the israeli plans were in

01:30:44.480 you know in in broad strokes we know about the the the the the tunnel tunnel tunneling uh capabilities

01:30:53.520 uh by by planting small bombs one after another it's limited but it's possible we know about israeli

01:31:00.160 commando operations uh for uh taking out underground facilities we know it's been done we know it's possible

01:31:07.920 is it was it better for america to um to take those 37 hours and do something that was much less

01:31:17.040 risky much safer and by the way demonstrated american uh military capabilities in in a way that i'm sure

01:31:24.560 that president trump really really uh appreciated and wanted the world to see i i there's no contradiction

01:31:32.800 between these two things israel was ready to do it alone and the trump administration thought it was

01:31:39.360 sitting for months looking at the alternatives and the trump administration decided that for 37 hours

01:31:45.360 it was better for israel in a two-year war to not do it alone maybe and you know maybe in six months

01:31:50.080 they'll come up with this a similar decision but the idea that this is you know the jews are making

01:31:56.160 this decision i mean come on this is absurd nobody nobody makes decisions for for for for donald trump

01:32:02.880 and the people around him they're such good people and the the claim that they're you know that they're

01:32:08.640 being controlled by netanyahu i'm sorry just give me a break well i'll say this i will say that ultimately

01:32:16.800 um i do disagree um i do disagree that firing you know missiles at another country is something that

01:32:25.280 doesn't involve you in a war it doesn't represent your involvement in a military operation and i i'm

01:32:30.160 sorry let me just i i just if if if that's the way you you understood then then i thought i didn't mean

01:32:37.680 that at all okay i was i was only drawing the distinction between um uh american british and arab and

01:32:46.240 turkish forces participating together with israel in shooting down incoming missiles into israel

01:32:55.920 where the where the the idea is that israel's pretty good at this and israel will also do the

01:33:00.080 same for other countries that's not at all the same as an in as an incursion an aggressive incursion

01:33:09.760 into iranian airspace that's a combat move that's an act of war it's a completely different story

01:33:16.000 i i i'm just i'm saying i don't think that's the same as conquering iran but it is certainly it's

01:33:22.720 an aggressive move it's an act of war for sure right yeah and and so yeah i agree that these are

01:33:28.960 obviously uh you know different operations but i do think it does represent america you know making

01:33:35.120 itself a critical part of israel's defense and whether or not israel had plans theoretically to i mean they

01:33:41.520 had the plans but theoretically they would have gone in and handled this themselves that's not

01:33:45.120 what actually happened and so we have one of these situations where it's like well we are told that

01:33:49.680 this is going to happen you know under under the auspices of one sovereign government and in fact

01:33:54.080 actually that won't be the case if israel really is interested in maintaining its you know sovereignty

01:33:59.680 through the its ability to defend itself it can't be like well but it was convenient to have the united

01:34:04.000 states come in and clean this one up so we did that i don't think anybody said that i mean i don't i

01:34:10.960 don't think that there was a single israeli figure that said the thing that's being attributed uh you know

01:34:18.080 i i i have enough contact on the inside both both on the american side and on the israeli side so that i

01:34:25.760 i i have a certain degree of um understanding about the process and the the operational alternatives

01:34:37.280 both joint strike and israel going it alone those alternatives were on the table and were discussed

01:34:44.240 for months there was no there was no um is is israel said to america we're going to do it alone and then

01:34:51.520 24 hours later they turned around and said wow wow we can't do it alone that that's just a that's a

01:34:57.760 childish and ridiculous description of what happened what happened was that for several months uh the uh

01:35:05.360 the uh americans and israelis were consulting on what the best way to to prosecute to the the uh the war

01:35:13.920 in iran was and the alternative that that uh that uh the trump administration chose was an alternative that

01:35:20.640 the trump administration thought would be best for the united states and no israeli leader ever at any

01:35:28.400 point said that the united states should choose an alternative that's anything other than what is

01:35:33.200 best for the united states and so i look i i think that if we're going to be mature about this then we

01:35:40.800 yes i i agree with the entire vision that that uh israel should be uh um heading towards

01:35:50.480 a much greater degree of independence uh and the united states should be moving towards a much uh

01:35:58.000 lesser degree of taking responsibility for the middle east those are things that i think are are

01:36:04.240 are crucial and important and by the way i also think they're they're just going to lead to to a better

01:36:09.040 alliance and better friendship between between americans and israelis and between christians and jews but

01:36:14.880 you you can't say i think you can't i think you shouldn't i think you shouldn't say yes those are

01:36:22.480 the principles that's where i want to go i've got an administration that basically wants to go there

01:36:27.600 we've got the first administration you know in in in 50 years that sees that that sees that vision is

01:36:35.920 trying to go there wants to go there and then despite the fact that they are aggressively pursuing

01:36:44.240 that vision there's one 37 hour operation where they decide that that it's in america's interest to

01:36:52.080 to do the bombing and then all of a sudden no all of your principles have been violated look look

01:36:57.520 gentlemen i i i i i'm talking to your audience please um there there are principles that we're

01:37:06.080 we're discussing and we can agree on them and they're important and they're right but i think that

01:37:11.680 it's unfair to any politician to any administration american israeli anyone to take these principles and

01:37:21.280 insist that they apply dogmatically every single moment on every single decision that that's just

01:37:29.840 not a reasonable way to look at look at politics it it it'll cause you to do stupid things so let's

01:37:36.640 agree about where we're going let's agree about what we want to do which which we've discussed and i and

01:37:42.000 and i think we do we do agree on and and and and then if the american administration the best that

01:37:49.840 we've ever seen um decides that it's going to make an exception for for for for uh for a certain

01:37:56.240 operation so come on give them some credit stop talking like like they're babies and they they you

01:38:02.400 know they they they don't have any common sense and they can't exercise judgment in complicated

01:38:07.200 situations it's not fair i agree ultimately that statesmanship has to prevail over abstract principle

01:38:14.160 and in a real political situation you're going to run into these we can you know perhaps disagree

01:38:20.160 if this is the exact intersection of that but i agree that ultimately this is true that a complete

01:38:25.360 devotion to abstract principle is going to put you in a terrible position ultimately when it comes to

01:38:29.920 practical matters of politics however i i think perhaps maybe a focus on domestic uh issues for

01:38:35.280 a second might might highlight this problem a little clearer you know the the trump administration

01:38:40.160 has been pushing um a lot putting a lot of pain on american universities and uh let me tell you

01:38:46.080 this uh i'm glad to see it i love to watch universities cry uh they've been bastions of

01:38:50.800 horrible anti-american policies for a long time uh we should have defunded most of these places

01:38:56.320 many years ago and used uh you know the power of uh the office ultimately when republicans win to

01:39:02.560 reduce the power that these institutions have inside of american life so i have no love for university

01:39:08.400 systems if we could seize the endowments and auction off the buildings tomorrow i'd be more

01:39:12.880 more or less okay with that so all of that said uh when we started to see the trump administration

01:39:17.920 apply um what i mean you know a decent amount of pressure to these universities to reduce anti-semitic

01:39:25.680 action or speech ultimately uh you know there's this feeling i think for a lot of people myself

01:39:32.400 particularly who have noticed that these universities have spent decades preaching anti-christian

01:39:37.520 anti-white hatred on a regular basis they teach entire courses on how western civilization is

01:39:43.040 terrible how white people are the devil uh how ultimately that you're genetically evil for being

01:39:48.480 white like these these are very common talking points on american universities and no action was

01:39:53.120 taken nobody cared no republicans cared the trump administration didn't care when it was in the

01:39:57.600 first time right now i think ultimately the the winds have shifted on that which i'm very glad to see i'm

01:40:03.040 glad to see that america's dominant religion and race are ultimately not now you know allowed to be

01:40:08.640 openly hated on a regular basis in america these are great things however coming packaged with that

01:40:14.240 has been and seeing primarily the push against this has not been the anti-weight hatred but has been the

01:40:19.360 anti-semitism in these universities and to be clear again because i really hate these people i wasn't so

01:40:25.520 sad about watching the united states start deporting a bunch of you know students from i don't know the

01:40:31.280 uae or something that like hate my guts and are hoping that i die and hate my religion hate my

01:40:35.600 people like that's fine deport them that's yeah great whatever excuse you need right however a lot

01:40:41.680 of people were concerned even if they agreed ultimately that these people were like poisonous

01:40:45.600 to our body politic and should be expelled that this principle of like pushing a level of speech

01:40:51.280 restriction and and these kind of things based around uh israel would ultimately lead towards more

01:40:57.040 nefarious controls inside the united states and we just saw the trump administration kind of try to

01:41:02.960 sneak in to fema funding that you have to like have a specific view towards israel to receive that

01:41:09.200 funding and as someone who has like gone a month and a half without power and you know had to drive

01:41:15.680 through waist-high water to get to their house after a hurricane and uh you know have watched their

01:41:21.120 community become entirely devastated by natural disasters and required fema funding and these things to

01:41:26.880 to to pull these things together i get kind of worried when i see this you know i'm told okay

01:41:31.600 well the trump administration is not foolish of course they're not going to act on behalf of

01:41:34.560 foreign power these kind of things however i gotta say uh when i when i watch that you know the the

01:41:40.240 switch is no longer okay let's use this pressure against foreign students with an ideology that hates

01:41:44.880 me from a religion in place that's you know detrimental to my my nation i've lost that argument which

01:41:50.720 was already a little tenuous because we didn't do anything about the anti-white stuff but now it's an emergency

01:41:55.200 and now we've moved that to like but now i need to start punishing municipalities by removing their

01:42:00.000 disaster funding depending on their opinion of a foreign government and that that that's when it starts

01:42:05.600 to get concerning for me and start starts me asking questions is there a level of undue influence

01:42:10.480 inside my government okay look um we're we're definitely we should definitely talk about the um uh the the the

01:42:19.920 level of undue influence issue but i think um just so that your your your audience knows uh at a more

01:42:29.680 basic level where you know where i stand i i agree that um you know i mean i don't know how people could

01:42:38.560 disagree but i don't i i agree and i certainly don't don't mind saying so that uh anti anti-white propaganda

01:42:47.920 uh is an integral part of um of uh has been an integral part of um liberal academia bringing in

01:42:58.880 and cultivating neo-marxist revolutionary academia um since since since the late 1960s christopher rufo's um

01:43:09.840 chapters on on uh how this got got started in uh the late 60s in california are uh were were eye

01:43:17.760 opening and they definitely um definitely reflected what happened at uh at at princeton in in in the

01:43:24.800 early 1970s and what i saw when i was on the campus there the um the uh permitting anti-white hatred um

01:43:36.640 dressed up as uh you know whatever as as as uh ethnic studies programs or gender studies programs

01:43:44.720 or or or or or or or third world centers or um exchange programs i mean the this is this is a

01:43:52.960 horrible disastrous policy that that uh american universities undertook and um and it's despicable

01:44:01.520 and i can't stand it and if um the uh the trump administration uh were choosing to um to prosecute

01:44:12.160 this campaign to try to force the universities to um to either uh ease up on the uh the the horrific

01:44:23.600 revolutionary ideologies ideologies that they're teaching or to get off you know get off the

01:44:31.040 government dole if to stop receiving government funds or or maybe both i i i just i think that everything

01:44:39.200 else um that i think all the people criticizing it um have no alternative all right they simply have no

01:44:48.320 alternative there is you know if somebody's got a policy alternative that that could actually uh make

01:44:55.520 progress on destroying the the um uh the uh the monopoly at this point the chokehold um uh on american

01:45:05.840 academia by by anti-white and anti-jewish um uh revolutionary movements if somebody has a different

01:45:14.400 policy then i'd like to hear it i haven't heard a single constructive suggestion all i hear is uh is

01:45:21.760 liberals yes including including many many liberal jews complaining about about a policy which has some

01:45:29.840 kind of plausible likelihood of succeeding when they don't have an alternative like they they haven't

01:45:34.560 offered in any alternative all they're doing is is complaining about an administration that's trying

01:45:39.040 to solve the problem now if um uh when uh bill ackman you know to pick some some you know a jewish

01:45:47.840 billionaire who people on uh some people on on on uh on the right uh have taken as kind of like a like

01:45:55.440 like an awful guy in a punching bag one of the things to notice that when bill ackman um turned on his

01:46:03.600 harvard circles and and began um writing these you know these these twitter these x uh like essays um

01:46:14.640 taking on harvard in a way that you know no no harvard alumnus as far as i know had ever done before

01:46:20.800 certainly not somebody with that kind of uh influence and and uh and power take take a look

01:46:28.480 when he started doing that he said anti-white and anti-jewish and that's what he should have said

01:46:36.480 it's it it's absolutely true and good for him that he did say it now i want to know and i don't know

01:46:43.600 the answer to this question like there's some things i think i know the answer to i don't i don't know for

01:46:48.240 sure the answer to this question i want to know why the trump administration is focusing on anti-semitism

01:46:55.760 when they could be saying you know like christopher rufo says and anti-white anti-jewish and anti-asian

01:47:03.360 that's factually true why not you know why not say that i i don't know the answer to that question i

01:47:08.080 haven't i haven't asked um it might it's since since you have close personal relationships that

01:47:13.440 might be a great question to ask no no it's it's something that i i i'm i'm i'm actually interested to

01:47:19.680 find out the answer but i i i have i've not yet had that conversation uh with anyone in the

01:47:24.880 administration but let me let me throw it throughout a possibility well first of all

01:47:30.240 let's take a look at the american jewish community where does the american jewish community which is

01:47:34.480 supposedly you know um uh manipulating the trump administration uh on this subject where does the

01:47:42.240 american jewish community stand on the trump administration's war with harvard and you know what

01:47:48.400 i'm ashamed to tell you but this is public knowledge you know this is just a fact that that

01:47:53.680 that the that on the trump administration's war with harvard almost every jewish institution that

01:48:00.480 took any kind of position took the you know you're violating free speech liberal position okay which which

01:48:06.800 you know i i i just think yet another mistaken liberal uh liberal view the you know the idea that

01:48:13.280 that harvard could be you know uh a neutral space which is neutral among all groups and among all

01:48:20.560 world views like what like what what a ridiculous utopian nonsensical view okay so so here we've got a

01:48:27.680 great test because the because if it were up to the jews in america they're they're all condemning it

01:48:35.040 they're they're like afraid you little friends gonna say if we side with with with the trump

01:48:39.920 administration for attacking harvard by the way they did the same on the muslim on the muslim

01:48:52.800 breaking up a little bit there unfortunately seemed to have frozen

01:49:02.320 yeah this is the always the excitement of trying to stream across uh you know half the world here is

01:49:08.000 you never know how good your internet connection is going to be i believe i'm still solid on i my

01:49:13.280 end but dr harzoni may have uh been disconnected here so i'm gonna fill time for a few minutes and

01:49:21.440 hope that uh his signal returns and his connection returns and we're able to continue conversation

01:49:26.800 obviously got to the juiciest part of this conversation so uh would would hope that it does not

01:49:32.080 end here um but like i said it sounds like uh mr harzoni is ultimately making the case that many

01:49:39.280 different jewish organizations uh actually were pushing for uh the uh freedom of these different

01:49:46.640 arab movements or these different uh protest movements uh to push back and of course this is

01:49:51.360 true uh a large number of uh anti-israel activist organizations are themselves led by uh jewish members or are

01:49:59.680 heavily heavily populated by uh jewish members this uh also reminds me of uh of uh uh uh mikhail's uh

01:50:09.840 or robert michelle's uh argument that his note note in political uh parties that uh whether it be pro

01:50:17.680 semitism or anti-semitism uh you'll find jewish organizers uh being the most passionate uh on many

01:50:24.400 sides uh and so uh i i think that ultimately when you look at the fact that 70 percent of american jews

01:50:30.960 uh do vote democratic party and do seem to support many of the uh you know leftist causes that ultimately

01:50:36.720 push against israel uh that does open the question of you know whether is there is some kind of unified

01:50:42.640 jewish influence uh now some people would say okay but ultimately the democratic party does uh try to

01:50:49.680 promote uh many of these ideas as well uh maybe less so now the the that has changed radically over

01:50:56.240 the last uh few years to be sure uh but this did exist you can easily find and benjamin and yahoo

01:51:02.960 praising his friend joe biden in the same way that he praises his friend donald trump uh on some level

01:51:08.480 that's just good statesmanship uh however ultimately uh it does raise questions about uh you know how much

01:51:15.280 do you really care about pushing one side or another working with one administration or the

01:51:18.880 other or is it is is it always simply what is politically expedient also people might offer

01:51:24.160 the explanation that ultimately uh that might simply mean that the state of israel itself has more

01:51:30.080 influence than particular americans again uh something that i would certainly like to ask mr hozoni and

01:51:36.160 hopefully he is able to return so we can explore that if that if that is the case uh but i i think that

01:51:42.640 the question for most people is ultimately you know are we allowed to push for the things that are

01:51:50.000 good to the united states without having to necessarily introduce uh the idea that you know

01:51:56.480 anti-semitism is the only justification along with anti-white attacks and others or it can can

01:52:02.800 that criticism alone stand that's merit i recently had uh will chamberlain who's part of the natcon

01:52:08.160 crew he shows up on the podcast on a regular basis and said look this is just coalitional politics okay

01:52:12.640 you have to push the idea that you're banning aid uh you know from israel or sorry you have to push

01:52:20.160 uh the idea that you are banning the bds uh uh protests and boycotts against israel and its aid uh and

01:52:28.080 ultimately that's the only way that you can advance also these uh restrictions on dei and anti-asian and

01:52:33.840 anti-white policies and i'm not so sure i i i really am very doubtful that these things actually

01:52:38.720 have to be bundled now you know as as mr hozoni was ultimately pointing out perhaps a uh chris ruffo's

01:52:45.280 idea of like just push against these uh discriminations in general across the board there's no reason to

01:52:51.280 single out uh anti-jewish anti-semitic uh positions simply push against all of it simultaneously uh you

01:52:58.960 know that that might be ultimately be uh an option though again the concern seems to be the obsession

01:53:05.280 with carving these things out by american politicians and so far i haven't even though yes in in the

01:53:12.320 abstract uh you know mr hozoni is saying yeah i i don't want that to be the case uh what we're not

01:53:18.080 seeing is actually a push to figure out why and as he said he hasn't discussed this even though he's

01:53:23.200 friends with the trump administration and he knows these people well he hasn't asked that question i i think

01:53:28.560 that itself raises questions why not you know if you've asked if you know these people really

01:53:32.800 well and you're familiar with all of their positions then why aren't you asking i think

01:53:36.720 what would be a really basic question of hey this makes us look bad ultimately this is uh hurting uh

01:53:43.680 the perception of uh jews in america and israel uh abroad and it would it would be great if you guys

01:53:50.160 would stop pushing this we'd stop targeting this would stop singling this out i think that is a

01:53:55.680 very important conversation to have which is why i uh you know invited trump administration

01:54:00.880 officials to come on and explain what is going on uh why did you feel like this was a policy that you

01:54:07.200 could ultimately advance why did you think that that was okay on uh why does the trump administration

01:54:15.520 focus on anti-semitism when it's so obviously a crucial crusade for for whites and for asians and for

01:54:23.040 lots of people right yeah sorry guys we're back uh we had the the internet down uh but we we've uh

01:54:29.840 got everybody back we're just going to pick up where we left off so yeah you you were just discussing

01:54:33.920 the wisdom perhaps of taking a more rufo centered approach uh where it was you know let's just push

01:54:40.480 back against this general structure of dei and the groups that it targets including whites and jews and

01:54:46.000 asians rather than pushing for a very specific and special protection you know for for jewish americans

01:54:52.320 because i think a lot of people just got done hearing how important it was for us not to have

01:54:56.080 identity politics and yet they feel like now we're seeing a very specific aggressive push that again

01:55:01.920 has not really been explained or answered as to why this group has been singled out when we see a wider

01:55:07.040 problem that existed for many decades and was left unaddressed until all of a sudden there was a panic over

01:55:11.600 this group being targeted i i i completely agree with the question and and i i have a suspicion that uh

01:55:18.720 that that in principle we we we'd agree with you know a better way to frame it but let's um let's go

01:55:25.200 back for a second to the question of jewish influence and and what's happening okay because uh because

01:55:33.680 i i mean there's a problem with that interpretation the problem is that the you know as everybody knows

01:55:41.600 um american jews are very american jews are very liberal 35 percent of u.s jews um voted for trump

01:55:52.640 which uh which is a which is good i mean it's it's it's not good but it's good it's good in in the sense that

01:55:59.680 it is a shift and you know i'm i'm hoping that there's going to be a much greater shift and i

01:56:05.280 think that there's a there's a good chance of that but let's leave the speculation out of it american

01:56:11.120 jews are are a very liberal group now of course there there are conservative american jews that they

01:56:18.000 right i mean most most american jews are are liberal not just in the sense that you know they support

01:56:26.080 liberalism you know which which i might think in many cases is not good for america they also support

01:56:31.440 liberalism in israel which is a disaster for israel they support you know the the the their liberalism

01:56:39.680 is a problem for for me and for anybody who's not a liberal and if you just want an example of like

01:56:47.840 how is their liberalism you know bad for jews like like you know we can talk about how it's bad for america

01:56:53.200 but how is it bad for jews like the trump administration has a policy that's explicitly

01:56:59.200 aimed at trying to uh to deal with anti-semitism at harvard and other campuses and the american jews

01:57:05.760 should be cheering but they're not like this most of the spectrum of of jewish organizations are

01:57:12.560 condemning the trump administration that the wrong tactics violating free speech violating academic

01:57:18.560 freedom you know just like all the liberals they're they're just with the liberals the and and and

01:57:24.400 where and where are the conservative jews quiet okay quiet like i'm talking to you about something that

01:57:32.560 that really troubles me and also not not just you know in theory it troubles me but this is a

01:57:38.800 conversation that i'm having with jewish organizations now all the time is what on earth is wrong with you

01:57:44.000 how how can you possibly be allowing a situation where where where the trump administration is

01:57:50.320 trying to do something that from their perspective they think is really actually really good for jews

01:57:56.560 and by the way i like my assessment is the same i agree with them and and and you're sitting around

01:58:02.160 condemning them and the same the same thing happened with the muslim ban you know with the with the travel

01:58:07.120 ban when every time that trump wanted to talk about um uh in some way restricting or limiting uh

01:58:13.680 immigration from muslim countries now come on like what's the number one jews are supposed to be

01:58:19.360 all concerned about antisemitism what's the number one driver of antisemitism in in in every democratic

01:58:25.360 country the number one correlate is is large-scale muslim immigration i'm not saying it's the only issue

01:58:31.760 i'm also not saying that you know that all muslims are antisemites or anything but but if you want to

01:58:36.560 see like like what's changing this the the the landscape against jews in in in the us one of

01:58:43.760 the central factors is muslim immigration president trump wants to stop it not just for jews but but

01:58:49.360 but because he thinks it's not good for america and all these jewish organizations are are are being all

01:58:54.800 liberal about this and complaining now this in my view right this is something that's got to change

01:59:02.000 but it's not a description of jews influencing the trump administration to do things that jews think

01:59:11.040 are good for jews that's that's just not what it is what it is is liberal jews siding with liberal

01:59:17.440 protestants and liberal catholics and liberal secular anti-religious people on the wrong side of issue after

01:59:23.600 issue and when is it going to stop well and so that's a fair point and i think one that uh i think you

01:59:29.920 know needs to be answered but at the same time it also makes me wonder this you know politics is

01:59:35.520 ultimately uh about patronage and it groups that see themselves as receiving benefits from one side

01:59:42.480 or another that's usually how you win over uh you know people to your political side i can provide for

01:59:48.240 you something that that no one else can the republicans have been trying to do this with black americans

01:59:53.120 for years which is the only group more monolithically liberal than jewish voters honestly and yet they

01:59:59.040 continually get rebuffed by the fact that they are making you know cases specifically for well-being

02:00:04.640 of black americans and we find the same thing with jewish americans that no matter how hard you know

02:00:11.120 the republican party seems to be committed to relationships with israel and having pro-israel

02:00:16.080 policies and even in your opinion going overboard with you know certain uh you know expressions of you

02:00:22.000 know only focusing on anti-semitism even when they dedicate themselves explicitly to this they don't

02:00:27.680 receive the support and at some point people start to ask a question of okay well i hear you you know

02:00:33.120 ultimately jewish people are not lending their support they're putting it the way but then why

02:00:37.520 is the trump administration so dedicated to this if if they're if they are not receiving a political

02:00:42.320 benefit if as you say this demographic seems to be largely unwinnable and to be fair it's not the

02:00:47.680 only demographic they're obsessed with they're obsessed with winning the black vote no matter how little

02:00:51.840 movement they make on it so it's not just the jewish vote but why is that why is it that the

02:00:56.160 conservatives and the trump administration and republicans are so obsessed with winning these

02:01:00.720 specific ethnic votes despite having little to no inroads with them on a regular basis no matter

02:01:06.880 what they do why are they so dedicated to their interests while railing against identity politics

02:01:11.760 okay so i i'm gonna offer a theory but but it's a theory i've already said you know i i have not

02:01:18.640 talked to administration people specifically about like what motivated this i i have a pretty good guess

02:01:24.640 okay but you know i could be wrong i i'm pretty sure that what's going on is um uh is that president

02:01:34.800 trump has a vision of how to build the coalition that he thinks is going to be able to um to

02:01:44.800 stabilize the nationalist right as the driver for a generation he has a particular vision of it okay and

02:01:53.680 i can you know people can disagree with that vision some people certainly do do disagree with that

02:02:00.000 vision but his his vision is one in which um in in which he can with justification go to uh to uh to

02:02:14.800 jewish donors jewish voters um jewish political operatives people in the system i mean it jews are

02:02:24.000 only two percent of the population uh but there's no question that uh that uh jews are uh over

02:02:31.840 represented in terms of their their influence in many many different uh uh different fields and trump

02:02:38.960 grew up in new york and he has a certain view of liberal jews and of non-liberal jews there's

02:02:45.440 plenty of non-liberal jews in new york city and um and i think he has a vision of what he thinks we

02:02:52.800 talked you know when we're in the like the theoretical part talking about the virtue of nationalism

02:02:57.200 nationalism we talked about um the the wise ruler uh being one who uh gives honor to the different

02:03:05.920 tribes okay and he he is um you know and i i i i was on a different a different podcast uh um a couple

02:03:18.560 of weeks ago with a with a well-known liberal podcaster and and i was telling him that i i i just think that's

02:03:25.840 what that's what trump is about he's is that he wants to build build up this uh this stable coalition

02:03:32.000 by giving honor to the different parts and and my uh my uh uh uh liberal uh conversation partner

02:03:39.840 he said oh come on yoram you're trying to tell me that trump is about you know some kind of like

02:03:46.160 like you know building alliance with you know many different kinds of groups and being and you know

02:03:51.360 speaking to them in a way that they'll come on come on he's he's combative he's he's nasty he puts

02:03:58.880 people down he's aggressive he you know and all i and i said yeah you you're right he's he's like obama

02:04:06.160 and that just like he didn't like that at all but anyway but it's um but yes actually yes i think that

02:04:16.160 what trump is doing is that he is taking on 50 different entrenched systems 50 different entrenched

02:04:25.280 interests 50 different um ways of doing things in washington where he's taking on everybody

02:04:33.600 and it looks like you know to some people like you know he could just take on everybody in the world

02:04:39.840 but that's not how he sees it he wants to fight his battles in such a way that you know to to people

02:04:47.120 at the center he can uh go and make the claim why are you going with these these marxist you know

02:04:54.320 revolutionaries in the democratic party i'm bringing back you know it'll it'll take a few years i'm bringing

02:05:01.280 back normality stability um mutual respect among different parts you know people say oh come on

02:05:09.600 trump is not about mutual respect i say he is i think that's his vision i think that he he has

02:05:15.040 a vision of how he wants to defeat the left permanently and his vision includes that he

02:05:21.760 actually wants he actually wants the jews in the coalition now people can say and i'm sure there are

02:05:28.080 some people who are are saying this they're saying listen the jews shouldn't be in the coalition like

02:05:34.000 why should the jews be in the coalition the jews have been in the coalition too long that's exactly

02:05:37.600 what's wrong with america i'm sure there are people saying that but here's a fact the fact is that trump

02:05:44.800 never said that he was going to be a uh a um a a whites only um uh candidate or a whites only uh uh um

02:05:56.960 leader he's what he is saying is uh he believes in in a million different ways he is saying that he

02:06:04.960 definitely believes that america has an inherited dominant culture and that that culture he remembers

02:06:10.960 it you know he's old enough he remembers what it was and he wants to return large pieces of that

02:06:16.640 inherited dominant culture that means strengthening the place of christianity and it means strengthening

02:06:21.760 the place of of of the the uh uh the the traditional constitution and the english language and and and and so

02:06:28.720 on he wants all of that but he wants the jews in now i want the jews in also but i don't want the i

02:06:36.800 don't want the jews in on traditional liberal terms and neither does he i i want a renegotiation of the

02:06:42.960 terms that that are that are going to make sense that are that are going to be good for the american

02:06:47.920 nation i mean that for example separation of church and state is a catastrophe i i know that most of the

02:06:54.080 jews uh supported i don't i don't think they created i think it was created by liberal protestants

02:06:59.600 but the liberal jews went in you know went in all in and and i don't like that i think that should end

02:07:04.720 i think we need to change it same same with with uh disagreeing with trump on harvard and disagreeing

02:07:10.080 with trump on on muslim immigration and to disagree and and all these things these things these things

02:07:16.560 need to change and that's what i'm telling the jewish community and i think we're going to find

02:07:20.800 people who are going to stand up in the end and are going to say you know we're with trump on this

02:07:25.440 but i could be wrong i think that's what he's doing i think that he looks at the war with harvard

02:07:32.160 and he says to himself if i call this anti-semitism that's going to look good to the centrist voters

02:07:40.720 jews among them who are leaving the democratic party but i don't think it's just about jews at all

02:07:46.480 i think that he believes that that the centrist non-jews want to hear about how he's fighting

02:07:54.320 anti-semitism and they don't want to hear about how he's fighting uh anti-white racism at the

02:08:01.440 universities now i think intellectually ideologically that's wrong you know maybe morally it's wrong but

02:08:09.120 it's it but but that's that's a decision he's making it's not because jews are going to him and

02:08:15.360 saying listen fight for jews don't fight for whites you know what like the american jewish community

02:08:20.720 would die rather than say anything like that like that that that's that's just not who they are

02:08:26.080 they're like about universal equality for absolutely everybody i mean that's that's their that's their

02:08:30.800 shtick so trump is trying to teach them a new way to be pro-jewish not just the jews he's trying to

02:08:37.360 teach a new way to be pro-jewish also to the non-jews and i don't i honestly i don't i don't know if if

02:08:43.920 if the liberal jews can buy it but i'm but i'm i'm gonna work to get the the the conservative jews

02:08:51.840 to to to to to stop being afraid of the liberal jews and stop being afraid of liberalism and stop

02:08:57.040 being afraid of nationalism stop being afraid of how it looks and stand up and support trump when

02:09:01.600 he's trying to do constructive things that that help the jews and help america that's the direction

02:09:06.240 that's what i i think where we need to go i think you're probably ultimately right about the

02:09:12.000 uh genesis of trump's motivation and the frame he's trying to place though i will say that uh

02:09:17.920 your point that ultimately trump need feels like he needs to pursue uh jews as part of the coalition

02:09:23.280 because he worked in new york and they're so overrepresented in positions of power and finance

02:09:27.040 probably won't help with the conspiracy theories there um it it does it there are larger questions

02:09:32.800 there that could take us another hour um and perhaps we should we should book that hour later um but

02:09:38.480 but but uh dude yeah i don't want to i don't want to test your internet connection again or your time

02:09:43.680 so i but i do want to ask you this final question before we wrap this up uh something that i think a

02:09:48.960 lot of people have have asked questions about and i think ultimately is probably something worth americans

02:09:53.680 uh you know what considering as we're we're worried about whether or not america is itself uh primarily

02:10:00.640 focused on its interest because of course again it's not just israel china desperately wants to be uh you know

02:10:06.400 heavily influential american politics uh you know the armenians want to be involved you know like

02:10:11.120 there are many communities that ultimately want to have a level of influence inside the united states

02:10:16.640 for very obvious reasons when you're the world's hegemon everyone's going to want to have a say that

02:10:22.160 it's actually part of your survival mechanism i i would like to hear a little less from india to be

02:10:26.720 honest uh honest uh but ultimately uh i think a lot of people are worried about lobbies in the united

02:10:32.960 states and and and i don't want to you know people i'm sure you'll have your own problems with

02:10:38.160 a pack and and that it ultimately perhaps is not uh you know affording uh jewish interest at the end

02:10:44.000 of the day or israeli interest in the day but it would just would it just be better for the united

02:10:47.600 states ultimately if we didn't have care or a pack would that would that just be better for the health of

02:10:53.600 the united states if whether it's for russia or armenia or israel or you know some kind of pan-arab

02:11:01.440 alliance that ultimately we were not allowing these larger organizations that technically

02:11:07.280 act as american citizens but clearly have some ethnic or you know relationship or some uh

02:11:14.640 component in which it's you know it's working with other foreign governments would it just be

02:11:18.720 better if ultimately these things were not allowed in the united states or at least had to register as

02:11:22.880 such in the united states well look at the the the the registering thing that's that's like a

02:11:31.440 uh a legal issue that i i i don't i don't actually know how to address it i mean you know just as

02:11:36.960 a as a common sense matter um farah makes sense to me farah the the the the if you if if you're lobbying

02:11:45.600 on behalf of of uh foreign government um then then you are supposed to register on uh under american law

02:11:52.560 i i'm sorry that i i'm completely not not versed on you know how a pack uh legally defends itself

02:12:01.280 or if it makes sense i'm completely in favor of of people who are lobbying for foreign governments

02:12:06.400 um uh registering which which that that just makes complete sense to me i yes you're you're you're

02:12:14.960 guessing correctly that you know my my historical relationship with uh with with a pack has not been

02:12:22.880 um uh not been been uh swimming swimming gone swimmingly i mean i like i'm i'm not one of the people

02:12:30.400 who's invited to come and speak at a pack conferences and um and my my my my sort of defining um event in

02:12:42.640 my relationship with with a pack was uh when i first set up a um a uh a conservative nationalist kind of

02:12:50.480 think tank in uh in in jerusalem in 1994. within the first year one of the things that i wrote like a

02:12:58.720 position paper on was uh was uh was on on foreign aid and and suggested that it was problematic this

02:13:05.200 is like we're talking about like 1995. this is like a million a lifetime away so so the story i'm telling

02:13:11.440 is not about people who are at a pack now but this thing came out and i was uh i i was in in in uh in

02:13:20.080 washington and you know speaking at one of the think tanks um and um and uh and as somebody said you

02:13:26.960 know the the a pack guys asked me to to ask you to to to come in you know i was young and stupid so i

02:13:33.360 didn't know that you know come in you know it's it's it's it's like on on you know like jason born

02:13:39.200 kind of like we want you to come you really better come in you know and so i i didn't know so so so

02:13:46.160 like i said okay fine a pack wants to talk to me and i i i i i went in and um and and there was this

02:13:53.520 room with like like the top like the top top a pack guys of uh of those days sitting around a table

02:14:00.320 and uh and and and they started cursing at me like what are you you know you you don't know what

02:14:07.520 you're doing you know you you're complete you know i won't i won't i'm sure everybody would love for

02:14:14.000 me to quote the actual words that the a pack but let's just say that it was it the behavior was was um

02:14:20.800 was really despicable and um and they they they said you know you sit there in jerusalem you just

02:14:28.080 think you can write whatever it is that you want and uh and and then you know we have to go around

02:14:33.760 and clean up the mess for months for years people are going to be quoting you on this and it was

02:14:39.440 just despicable there was no meeting of minds like i i i left you know disgusted and uh and they

02:14:46.720 they didn't even try to you know reach something they were trying to extract a promise for me to

02:14:51.600 to not say those things and i i wouldn't and that was the end of that was the end of it i mean i'm

02:14:58.000 the the the i i you know important to emphasize that was 1995 in 1996 uh netanyahu was was um

02:15:06.160 elected prime minister for the first time and uh and one of the the the first thing almost the first

02:15:11.440 thing that happened when he was prime minister in 96 was that he went to washington and spoke before

02:15:16.480 the houses of congress and uh and i helped him write that speech and uh and uh we put in the speech

02:15:24.400 that uh that the the american israeli relationship needs to be uh adjusted and that that the the aid is

02:15:31.680 not not good and it needs to be ended you know that was that was netanyahu and and you know these days

02:15:40.320 it's not like i'm in you know like i'm not in contact with netanyahu all the time but um um but

02:15:46.400 so you know i i can't tell exactly what he thinks these days but i can tell you exactly what he thought

02:15:51.040 in those days in 1996 we sat there together with a few other guys and we wrote this speech and he

02:15:56.560 thought it was completely normal to go to america and and and say that the the aid's not good for america

02:16:01.520 it's not good for israel and we should work towards ending it so so yeah i'm not i i'm not

02:16:11.040 completely on a pack side i don't want to take a stand on on their legal situation because just because

02:16:16.800 i don't know the details of it and i don't understand it but in principle uh of course foreign agents

02:16:23.360 registering and being known as foreign agents um uh for for for any country makes sense as a as a

02:16:30.160 principle now you were correct like i mean you you immediately went to care and i think that's

02:16:37.280 you know you're you're you're right that maybe we'll have to have a whole conversation uh other

02:16:43.040 conversation talking about islam but let's just at least get it started that um i i know that people on

02:16:50.320 the uh that there are people on the right especially now who are um who are concerned with uh with uh

02:16:57.680 uh the the the the undue jewish influence so let me just share um i i uh i do natcon conferences as

02:17:06.800 you said at the beginning not just in america but also in britain and in europe um i i i have many

02:17:12.480 friends in uh in the european nationalist movements and uh and i i know many many of them very well

02:17:20.800 and there's a big difference between the way british and european nationalists french hungarian

02:17:28.480 polish german italian dutch there's a big difference between the way that european natcons nationalist

02:17:38.560 conservatives see the the the jews and muslims issue compared to the american right what's the

02:17:45.600 difference the difference is the difference is that they are facing actual catastrophe at the

02:17:53.360 hands of the muslims at the hands of they they have muslim voters why on earth why on earth this this

02:18:00.560 this gaza the the the this uh muslim brotherhood terrorist organization um is uh it it's apparently

02:18:08.720 uh on the verge of being uh being creamed and finished off you know god willing but why now

02:18:16.160 why all of a sudden you know when the the why now all of a sudden the britain and france need to

02:18:22.960 like recognize the palestinians come on just give me a break there is no there is no palestinian state

02:18:28.640 like we're not talking about like whether we should recognize taiwan there there is no palestinian state

02:18:34.640 there there's there's there's nothing gaza is a war zone the west bank is is uh is uh is uh a number of

02:18:42.320 small autonomous cities that haven't had elections in 20 years because the hamas will take over the

02:18:47.440 instant that there are elections in those places so so israel's propping up the plo which is detested

02:18:53.600 and hated and in fevron in in you know one of the the the three most important cities in the west bank

02:18:59.760 just a few weeks ago five sheikhs announced publicly that they're they want to secede from

02:19:06.400 the palestinian authority they want to join the abraham abraham accords and and and they want to be

02:19:12.000 done with the entire palestinian nationalist movement they want a local emirate and and autonomy

02:19:17.280 okay so the the the palestinian national movement at this moment is in the worst condition that the the

02:19:23.360 worst place politically that it's been since you know since since arafat was expelled from beirut

02:19:28.880 in 1982 why do they want to recognize a palestinian state what on earth is that so you know i asked i

02:19:36.880 was just in london and i asked my friends what is going on what are you talking about that there's 75

02:19:43.520 opposition rock solid in israel to a palestinian state there's never going to be a palestinian state

02:19:48.240 now and and the saudis are against they only say they're in favor they they know it's going to be

02:19:52.800 muslim brotherhood and it's going to be against them that nobody wants it what are you doing in

02:19:56.960 england saying they want a palestinian state and here's what they said they said you are you don't

02:20:03.680 understand we're kind of we're we're we're country of of uh 35 35 40 million people with four million

02:20:11.840 muslim voters this this has nothing to do with palestinians it has nothing to do with the middle

02:20:18.160 east there's not going to be a palestinian state and and and and starmer knows it as well as anybody

02:20:22.800 else does but there's four million muslim voters in this country and he needs their votes now look

02:20:29.120 the people the nationalists in europe they can see they can see the end they're not sitting here

02:20:35.200 living in in fantasies of like like the jews will like if the jews take us over because they see the

02:20:40.800 reality of muslims taking them over they're talking about an actual movement that actually wants to

02:20:46.080 overthrow christian civilization so it's true that on the american right you get these guys who sit around

02:20:51.040 and podcast and people who've never been to israel and never talked to to an orthodox jew and they're

02:20:56.720 sitting around and know the jews they're trying to pervert america they're in favor of pornography

02:21:01.680 and we'll we'll see about that there was just a a a a great resolution by orthodox rabbis against

02:21:08.640 pornography we'll see about all this but the reality here's the reality the reality is that the jews

02:21:16.480 whatever influence the jews have in different countries it is not influence that is purposely

02:21:22.400 aimed at destroying the country that they live in compare that to what care is doing compare that to

02:21:28.000 the muslim brotherhood their actual goal is actual conquest and if you can't look you can't tell the

02:21:34.000 difference between you know people who actually want to overthrow your country and and people who

02:21:40.000 want to find a way to get along well you know whether they're stupid or they're they're they're not

02:21:44.160 they're liberal they're conservative if you can't tell the difference you know god help you

02:21:50.000 sorry i said that was going to be the last question but this is

02:21:52.000 for me so samuel huntington actually lays out in who are we uh his book on american identity

02:21:59.200 uh sorry i'm not just going to like constantly throw huntington at you but this is okay he's fine

02:22:04.880 um uh he specifically has a chapter in which he discusses that one of the you know tumults during

02:22:12.800 america's uh you know perhaps failed ethnogenesis was the fact that actually there was a heavy

02:22:20.160 influence on uh you know what a nationalism would look like and some of this came you know famously

02:22:26.960 the melting pot being written by uh you know a term introduced by a jewish playwright and that this had a

02:22:32.720 a dominant effect in in some at some level on how americans would identify and in he cites very

02:22:38.480 specifically a persistent jewish concern that a unified nation of christians would ultimately turn

02:22:45.280 on uh on jewish individuals and i know that sounds conspiratorial but huntington's not exactly

02:22:52.080 a radical on this issue and also i've specifically heard jews express exactly this concern that if america

02:22:59.040 has a unified identity specifically a christian identity but if there's any kind of ethnos in a

02:23:04.400 in a true sense not in just a racialist sense but but a true national sense that this unified identity

02:23:09.600 will eventually seek to drive out jewish people and this is why it's important to maintain more

02:23:15.200 of a melting pot understanding where we we never have one unified now that this was you know hunting

02:23:20.320 himself points out that this is a debate between several different jews at that time about whether you

02:23:25.440 should be taking no we should you know just have a general identity or we should push against the

02:23:30.480 general identity because this will be a threat but he does say that this is actually you know a

02:23:35.280 pretty critical influence uh at that time as to where my identity goes now eventually roosevelt

02:23:41.360 embraces you know pushes away from the melting pot and actually goes back to an understanding of

02:23:46.720 american ethnos as as its own thing uh but i just wonder what your response would be to to hunting

02:23:52.320 his assertion that this was this this constant concern of jews that perhaps a unified identity will lead to

02:23:58.960 bad outcomes for a jewish diaspora in that unified community if that does actually play a role

02:24:04.480 ultimately in how jews respond in culture and shape it yeah look huntington himself and i i i hope i i'm not

02:24:16.160 like like like like uh uh messing with the wrong character here but huntington himself is not sufficiently

02:24:24.320 uh conservative on oh sure of course on these issues he he's always i mean like he's got this american

02:24:34.240 creed business as bad as anybody and yeah i mean there's some ways in which he's he's an important

02:24:41.040 conservative and is important nationalist and and you know and i i was praising him and i i i will continue

02:24:47.120 praising him but on the issue of you know america and creedal nation i i i think that huntington was

02:24:55.120 was actually kind of confused and um and the the the issue of the jews let's put some perspective first

02:25:04.080 of all there were there were almost no jews in america you know just a minuscule um uh minority up

02:25:12.320 until uh up up until the 18 1880s or something you know like the the the big influx of uh of of of

02:25:23.040 millions of jews which which you know by the way that was the the republican administrations at the time

02:25:28.240 that uh that that uh that that that wanted it i mean they they brought in both jews and catholics

02:25:35.680 in large numbers and um the whole discussion of the melting pot is um it's once again that's not

02:25:46.400 that's not orthodox jews that's not traditional jews that's not you know jews who are were faithful

02:25:52.240 to the torah and they want to see uh jews as being you know like a uh a a autonomous loyal but as an

02:26:01.440 independent as possible you know uh kind of community that's not who is writing melting pot melting pot

02:26:08.560 is the leftist jews and uh and it's their their vision which again i mean i i i really i'm sorry that

02:26:17.760 i keep emphasizing this but i don't think their vision is is distinct from the liberal protestant

02:26:24.400 vision or the liberal catholic vision i think that there's all of these liberals with liberal ideas

02:26:30.800 and the jews definitely participate and they definitely contributed to it and i i i won't deny

02:26:36.160 that but i don't i just don't think it's it's particularly jewish if you look at it from the

02:26:40.000 perspective of an orthodox jew okay meaning a jew who is loyal to the torah who lives by it who's

02:26:47.520 who's whose concern is that uh america be a safe place a good place that whatever you know country

02:26:54.080 that they're in that it be a safe place and a good good place for people to to raise torah jews and and

02:27:00.160 propagate um uh god and scripture the way the jews do it you know for for future generations i know

02:27:06.320 many such people and none of those people are interested in the melting pot they're all they're

02:27:10.800 all against intermarriage like you know it's not just that they don't you know they want don't

02:27:16.320 jews to to to marry christians if you ask like they don't think christians should want to marry jews

02:27:21.600 they they just think that there should be like different tribes and we should try to get get

02:27:26.400 along and work together for common goals which include god and scripture and and and and the the

02:27:32.160 the the greatness of the united states okay i'm i'm going to share something that you know maybe it's um

02:27:38.240 it's it's a little bit premature but it's very relevant i i was at a meeting

02:27:42.320 very recently with some very very important uh orthodox rabbis in america and i i'm i'm speaking

02:27:51.840 not about you know what liberal jews were saying you know in in in uh 1900 or 1920 i'm talking about

02:28:00.160 what orthodox jews who are the the the faithful jews and the ones who actually i think are potentially

02:28:06.640 serious partners for for the american right what are orthodox jewish leaders saying right now and

02:28:13.040 i'm not talking about the the the names of the public figures that you you you find i'm talking

02:28:17.360 about the actual like the the the the the the people who are really deep into the yeshiva community

02:28:23.840 and and the orthodox community and i'm i'm i'm just telling you that the the idea of melting pot liberalism

02:28:31.120 being uh the the the the the goal of jews in america or being good for america that's just not

02:28:38.880 what they're saying like what what's on their minds is is the the the the left has already been given

02:28:46.720 over completely to to jew hatred they're revolutionary lunatics and and and and the question is um is uh uh

02:28:55.200 uh uh can can can can we come to a an uh honorable understanding with the nationalist right that's

02:29:03.280 going to be good for america and good for jews that's that's that's what they're trying to figure

02:29:06.960 out and nobody's interested in nobody's interested in destroying america or it's just ridiculous the the

02:29:14.000 you're right okay and let me there is a thing i don't want to say that this isn't true

02:29:19.040 it is true that that liberal american jews definitely have historically all sorts of

02:29:27.040 um uh hesitations about christianity which you know sometimes are much worse than hesitations

02:29:32.640 okay but again like we're talking about liberals we're talking about people both the jews and

02:29:39.680 the protestants and the catholics like all these liberals who thought that it was not totally insane

02:29:43.920 to ban god and bible from from american schools in the 1960s like think like what kind of a

02:29:49.920 person do you need to think that like that's good for america so i'm telling you you an authentic jew

02:29:57.520 would never say that's good for america an authentic jew would never say that's good for jews

02:30:02.480 an authentic jew would say that's insane and so liberalism is the problem there are plenty

02:30:08.640 of liberal jews but give me a break like let me let me introduce you to orthodox jews

02:30:14.240 and you can talk to them and and and you can see you don't have to take my word for it

02:30:19.360 no no i have no doubt that this is the the feeling of many communities and of course it that you know

02:30:23.680 uh you know uh one of my uh blaze colleagues who i'm friendly with jason whitlock is a guy who

02:30:30.080 obviously uh spends a lot of time addressing what he feels are issues in the black community

02:30:34.960 because he feels like the small percentage of uh black americans who ultimately side with

02:30:40.560 conservatives on issue of culture and country are doing more for their community and better

02:30:45.200 for their community ultimately helping their community unfortunately he also recognizes he

02:30:48.720 is in the vast majority minority in that community and while orthodox jews might have a much better and

02:30:53.920 healthier understanding of the situation it is hard not you know you do have to notice that ultimately

02:31:00.080 they are the minority inside that community both in general and specifically in the united states

02:31:04.960 and so many things that are rightly attributed uh to liberalism might therefore also transfer into

02:31:11.920 a focus on you know a jewish community and i gotta say again repeatedly i have heard this exact

02:31:18.320 explanation from jewish people as to why america cannot have a cohesive culture again they are all

02:31:24.240 liberal jews you're absolutely right about that but they are no less influential and they do make

02:31:28.640 up the majority of jewish voters inside the united states and so again i agree with you 100 that

02:31:34.320 ultimately you know given the fact that orthodox jews are probably going to only grow in uh their

02:31:41.280 population and therefore their influence among the jewish community simply because they're the ones

02:31:44.640 having children and you know perpetuating their identity in the here and now it is undeniable that

02:31:51.040 liberal jewish influence is i think ultimately negative because it is embracing many of the ideas

02:31:56.080 you're pointing out are poisonous for both america and jewish people and so i think that's what people

02:32:01.840 tend to focus on an unfair thing perhaps to lump everyone in just as it would be in completely unfair to lump

02:32:08.800 jason whitlock in with some random rapper who's preaching degeneracy and drug use inside his community

02:32:14.960 but it remains a community issue nonetheless yep okay i mean i i i think all of that is uh all of that is fair uh

02:32:23.840 and and and i think also very very um um perceptive view of you to to note that it is it is the orthodox jews

02:32:31.360 who are having children and i'll go further the the the the the liberal jews um uh adopted the idea of the

02:32:40.080 melting pot and uh and uh therefore won't exist right they they they they have turned their uh their religion into

02:32:52.560 liberalism and their uh their their their their children marry out uh even when their children

02:32:59.760 don't marry out their children don't have children i mean they they they are um leading the way like many

02:33:08.160 other liberal communities like leading the way in in assuring that they're going to disappear in america

02:33:15.040 i'm not saying that be you know out of uh out of uh taking any pleasure in in in in communities that

02:33:22.320 are destroying themselves but uh if there's a future for for jews in america it's it it is an orthodox

02:33:29.360 future and it fits in much much better with uh with uh the the the world view uh of the the the

02:33:36.400 american right that you know the theory that we we need to not have a strong center so i i'm just

02:33:43.040 telling you the theory that we're not going to have a strong center means that there's not going

02:33:46.160 to be in america so there's absolutely no point in in in uh in traditional jews who who know what it

02:33:55.200 means to hold a community together and they know what it means like why you need to have a strong

02:33:59.920 center and why you need to have a a a mainstream even if there's you know all sorts of peripheral

02:34:05.680 groups and but they know why there needs to be a a strong center in order to be able to hold anything

02:34:11.120 together this is a common language um that that you can have with uh with orthodox jews and with pro

02:34:18.880 orthodox jews and uh god willing we'll we'll get to see um a lot more of these conversations going

02:34:26.320 forward and i i i think that the that will make it possible for the debates at least to be uh more

02:34:34.000 grounded in facts and reality rather than you know just sort of like accusations of that that are kind

02:34:40.080 of okay you know let me say one last thing where are these accusations coming from it drives me

02:34:45.520 completely nuts that that people on the right are openly saying that they're getting their information

02:34:51.600 about jews judaism and israel from haaretz okay arts is is like it's the the the most leftist israeli

02:34:59.360 publication it's it's to the left of the new york times if you can believe that it just it just is

02:35:04.160 it's like it it's like the furthest left liberal jews combined with like the communist jews it it's a

02:35:11.840 it's a commie paper it is it is systematically about uprooting and destroying everything that is

02:35:21.360 inherited and good and and uh and traditional and god-fearing uh in in in the jewish tradition and

02:35:29.680 and in the state of israel that's how art now i don't complain that you know that that people have

02:35:38.960 views that are different from mine we're going to have natcon in a few weeks um and uh and they're

02:35:44.240 going to be uh people there who are uh various israel skeptical and they're going to be people there

02:35:50.240 who are very israel positive all within the the nationalist camp we're not doing neocons but

02:35:57.600 there's going to be a strong debate and i'm i'm i'm happy to have the different views uh represented

02:36:02.640 and i think it i think it's positive and good but i i have one real complaint something that i really

02:36:11.520 really i i i object to and i i uh i i resent as a jew but also as a as a as a leading figure in in

02:36:21.520 nationalist conservatism uh the the idea that anybody in any country that a nationalist from any country

02:36:31.440 should pick up pick up a commie paper from some other country or for some other community and get

02:36:37.360 their information from that right i mean that that that is like it's it's one of two things

02:36:44.240 either it's unbelievably foolish like it's just like injecting poison into your own brain which is

02:36:50.880 going to have terrible consequences for your own sanity and your own thinking or it's malicious and

02:36:56.560 i don't i'm not going to say which i don't have any idea i'm not even going to try to figure it out

02:37:00.880 i'm just saying that i would never ever pick up the guardian and use it as an information source

02:37:07.680 in order to find out what's going on in britain and what i should think about the british their

02:37:11.440 history their religion the the the their their current legal situation who's good who's bad i would

02:37:17.360 never in my life do that because i'm i'm actually like because i'm like a sane common sense nationalist

02:37:23.920 and i know that these leftist newspapers that they poison everything everywhere and so the idea

02:37:30.240 that that uh yes you know we'll get our there is a there there is an international liberalism and it

02:37:37.920 runs you know most of the media and it's wrong about just about everything but when it comes to israel

02:37:43.520 we're going to pick up the most internationalist the most anti-traditionalist the most anti-nationalist

02:37:49.040 newspaper in the country and that's going to be our source for information about jews whoa look you

02:37:56.160 know i i'm not asking i i'm i'm not saying don't read it for my sake don't read it for your sake what's

02:38:02.880 wrong with you it's it it is it's haaretz that that ran the program on the like the original sin of the

02:38:10.480 founding of the state of israel before it became the original sin of the united states you know before

02:38:15.840 the new york times picked it up year years and years before that the original sin was was was uh

02:38:22.320 was pioneered by by haaretz the the evil founding of the state of israel and you guys are taking that

02:38:29.920 on on undiluted as though it's true and and running with it well i would say that you know it's as much as

02:38:39.840 we recognize uh correctly ultimately that the mainstream media lies in general and is deceptive

02:38:46.320 and manipulating narratives uh it is unfortunately due to scale uh the only way which many people

02:38:51.840 consume information or know where to go for information or feel that they can find some kind

02:38:56.480 of authoritative information and we tend to become less skeptical of the mainstream media as it goes

02:39:02.160 outside of our circles of experience and so i know a lot of people from foreign nations who just take

02:39:06.880 whatever an american paper says verbatim but would never do the same thing in their hometown and i

02:39:12.320 think that works vice versa as well uh so i i doubt most people could name five papers from israel much

02:39:19.920 less discern which one is the one that would have the highest level of credibility at some level that's

02:39:25.200 a failing uh of of the individual but there's also only so much time in a day and ultimately people do

02:39:31.600 fall back on credentialism and and narratives that are presented to them by mass sources whether

02:39:36.800 they recognize that or themselves or not but here's an offer uh if if if you or any of your listeners

02:39:43.200 uh would like alternative news sources about uh israel please uh please write to me there

02:39:49.280 there are conservative journalists not many mostly you know mostly it is uh leftist journalism just

02:39:54.640 like in america but there there are alternative sources which are accurate and useful and helpful

02:40:01.200 and and and they're nationalists they they they they are respectful of of nationalists in other

02:40:07.360 countries all right guys well we're going to go ahead and wrap this one up here it's been a long

02:40:12.320 one but a good one i want to thank you very much for coming on the book is the virtue of nationalism

02:40:16.800 it's out in its paperback uh edition now and uh you said you have natcon coming up in a few weeks

02:40:22.560 so if people september 2nd second through second second second through fourth september 2nd through

02:40:29.120 4th in washington and you can go to natcon.org to uh to take a look at uh at uh we're going to have

02:40:36.480 over 100 100 speakers and uh and many many many crucial issues are going to be uh discussed there

02:40:43.680 i'd be happy to see you all absolutely all right guys well we're going to head and wrap this up again

02:40:48.320 sorry but no questions today due to the time difference uh this is pre-recorded but i appreciate

02:40:53.840 if you did uh submit one if you would like to uh join us of course on a regular basis you need to

02:40:58.800 subscribe on youtube click the bell and notifications so you know when these streams go live when they are

02:41:03.600 live and if you'd like to get these broadcast as podcasts you need to subscribe to the or mcintyre

02:41:08.000 show on your favorite podcast platform thank you everybody for watching and as always i will talk to you next time

The Auron MacIntyre Show - August 08, 2025

The Virtue of Nationalism and America's Relationship with Israel ｜ Guest： Yoram Hazony ｜ 8⧸8⧸25

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