The Auron MacIntyre Show - The Woke Trojan Horse ｜ Guests： Last Things and Gio Pennacchietti ｜ 1⧸24⧸23

00:00:00.000 We hope you're enjoying your Air Canada flight.

00:00:02.320 Rocky's Vacation, here we come.

00:00:05.060 Whoa, is this economy?

00:00:07.180 Free beer, wine, and snacks.

00:00:09.620 Sweet! 0.95

00:00:10.720 Fast-free Wi-Fi means I can make dinner reservations before we land.

00:00:14.760 And with live TV, I'm not missing the game.

00:00:17.800 It's kind of like, I'm already on vacation.

00:00:20.980 Nice! 0.94

00:00:22.140 On behalf of Air Canada, nice travels.

00:00:25.260 Wi-Fi available to Airplane members on Equipped Flight.

00:00:27.220 Sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply.

00:00:28.720 CRCanada.com.

00:00:30.000 We'll be right back.

00:00:59.980 We'll be right back.

00:01:29.980 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:01:34.100 Thanks for joining me this evening.

00:01:36.180 Got a great stream with some returning guests that I think you guys are really going to enjoy.

00:01:41.220 I've got kind of my cultural dream team here.

00:01:44.140 You know, we've got the art, we've got the cultural critique.

00:01:46.200 They're down to help me talk about some TV shows that started out kind of based, but ended up going awoke and kind of talking about this phenomena of the woke Trojan horse in entertainment.

00:01:58.540 So joining me today, I have last things.

00:02:00.540 So joining me today, I have last things.

00:02:01.660 Thanks for joining me, man.

00:02:03.360 Pleasure to be here, Oren.

00:02:04.700 And then, of course, I've got Gio from Content Minded.

00:02:08.900 Thanks for joining me.

00:02:09.660 And Digital Archipelago, which is tomorrow on Prude's channel, too.

00:02:13.040 That's right.

00:02:13.540 Absolutely.

00:02:14.020 Both gentlemen have YouTube channels that you absolutely must check out, and they'll make sure to tell you all about those as we kind of wrap things out or up.

00:02:22.180 But make sure that you're checking their stuff out.

00:02:24.760 All right.

00:02:25.120 So let's jump right into this.

00:02:27.540 Now, last things gave me this idea, and I thought it was a great one, which is why I had to enlist these gentlemen for this talk.

00:02:34.980 He was telling me about this idea of the woke Trojan horse. 0.78

00:02:38.520 Of course, we all know about woke television.

00:02:41.200 It's very clear that this stuff is everywhere.

00:02:43.840 We've got the, or as we used to call it, the SJWs, you know, running the entertainment these days.

00:02:50.440 You can't get away from it.

00:02:51.900 It's in every book.

00:02:52.680 It's in every TV show.

00:02:53.740 It's in every video game.

00:02:54.880 It's in every movie.

00:02:56.040 However, that's not the only way this happens.

00:02:58.400 There are these, you know, little things that Hollywood likes to throw out there.

00:03:02.120 These glimmers of hope.

00:03:03.760 These shows that start off with kind of a based premise.

00:03:06.800 They've got some things that we like.

00:03:08.280 They look like they might be old school.

00:03:10.260 Now, it might even be communicating a message that we agree with.

00:03:14.020 But over time, we slowly see that these things morph and change.

00:03:18.680 Last things.

00:03:19.360 Can you tell us a little bit about the woke Trojan horse and why you thought of some of

00:03:23.840 the TV shows that we're going to talk about today?

00:03:27.180 Yeah, yeah.

00:03:28.360 I'd be happy to, Oren.

00:03:29.960 And, you know, woke Trojan horse.

00:03:31.960 I guess that's kind of my working term for this phenomenon.

00:03:36.820 And I'm fascinated by it.

00:03:38.720 And honestly, I think it's, it troubles me that I think it's something that gets buried

00:03:43.840 under people speaking generally and broadly about the phenomenon of woke shows.

00:03:51.020 Because I find it to be something quite a bit more kind of nefarious and, and kind of uncanny

00:03:59.440 and unprecedented.

00:04:00.320 And one of the reasons why when you and I were batting around this idea for a show, I

00:04:04.940 wanted to bring on Gio is because I know this, this, this man is my art historian.

00:04:10.900 And I think it really does deserve its own scrutiny and its own term.

00:04:17.060 Woke Trojan horse is a working title, by the way.

00:04:19.740 If we can think of a better neologism tonight, let's, let's do it.

00:04:24.040 But, um, you know, I think it just unsettles me a lot more than things that just kind of

00:04:31.080 come out of the gate woke, whether, I mean, even if it's an adaptation of a preexisting

00:04:36.040 product, if it's, you know, if in episode one, it's woke, there's still something that

00:04:41.600 there's a, it's a bit more of a fair fight, I guess, or, or it still seems like there's

00:04:47.740 something kind of above, above board about the subversion and the transgression.

00:04:52.200 But I find it very eerie and, and unsettling that the, I get, I think the way I put it

00:05:00.300 to you, Oren, in an email was, you know, if we think about other eras, you know, before

00:05:05.440 television, you know, if you, if you were just staring at an oil painting of Napoleon

00:05:10.380 Bonaparte from like the, the, the 1700s, it's not going to suddenly become a oil painting

00:05:17.400 about gay marriage or no, well, actually, no, no, they could be, it could be last.

00:05:24.360 Maybe if you look at it long and hard enough, given the hermeneutics of it over time, given

00:05:29.120 enough academics, it will be right.

00:05:30.920 Right.

00:05:31.760 But, well, I mean, Gio, tell me, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong here, but is there any, anything

00:05:37.200 that would have, that has existed that you think would be kind of comparable in any kind

00:05:42.860 of artistic medium to, to a TV show, just having its, having its messaging be completely

00:05:49.960 kind of subverted and undermined like this?

00:05:53.580 Yeah.

00:05:53.760 I mean, I think, um, well, the, a lot of the Greek pictorial art, I mean, that always has

00:05:59.480 in the minds of academics, homoerotic subtext, uh, there is ambiguity though.

00:06:04.900 Caravaggio, for instance, I mean, let's face it, he kind of was a classic gay man, but like 1.00

00:06:09.720 there, there, in terms of his outlook, there, there always is sort of, uh, a level of profanation

00:06:15.460 there.

00:06:15.800 But, but when you're, what you're talking about though, is when it comes to visual medium,

00:06:20.320 when it comes to the art of reproduction that is afforded by certain, you know, technology,

00:06:26.280 such as the camera, the fact that narratives can change and shift, it seems that we live

00:06:30.680 in, especially now is the age of the series.

00:06:32.940 It seems that the Hollywood film after the, uh, for YouTube purposes, the certain medical,

00:06:38.900 um, state of exception that happened the previous two years, it seems that series work is now

00:06:44.200 the thing and the Hollywood movie is like on its, on its last legs.

00:06:48.260 But when it comes to a narrative medium, the fact that it can be so subverted so easily,

00:06:53.700 I think that's your point.

00:06:54.880 Whereas it takes a lot of intellectual, uh, let's call it, uh, intellectual subversion to

00:07:01.080 take a painting like a William Waterhouse painting and say that, you know, it represents

00:07:06.300 some unique form of either, you know, uh, social messaging or subversion, or for example, the

00:07:12.020 way they canceled Picasso because he painted certain ladies of the night.

00:07:15.920 So therefore the, um, the figures of the three women that has a new subtext, which is evil

00:07:22.140 and terrible and patriarchal, but you know, but what you're saying is the direct transmission

00:07:27.080 of the message over a sort of a narrative piece over time, how that sort of shifts, which

00:07:33.320 I think is also very interesting.

00:07:35.340 So yeah, you're right.

00:07:36.020 You're right to point out that it seems with series work in particular, there's this unique

00:07:40.340 element of subversion.

00:07:41.560 Yeah.

00:07:41.880 Yeah.

00:07:42.300 And I guess I should, I should say, I, I, I think there's kind of multiple potential,

00:07:47.580 it's hard to read into things some of the time.

00:07:50.040 Um, but, but there, there are multiple agendas or multiple things at play.

00:07:55.080 I think in some circumstances, it may have sort of always been the intention to sort of,

00:08:00.640 you know, turn the dial up to 11 with the, the progressive messaging.

00:08:04.840 And it was just a matter of, of kind of lulling.

00:08:07.660 You take season one to just kind of, um, get people acclimated to a series and then it

00:08:12.940 gets, um, it gets subverted.

00:08:15.340 But I think in other circumstances, it, it feels much more to me like it, it has been kind

00:08:21.420 of torn out of the creators or the showrunners hands and really just becomes someone else's

00:08:28.420 possession or the product of a bureaucracy.

00:08:32.860 Um, I'll give you a good example though.

00:08:34.660 Oh, sorry.

00:08:35.000 Were you go ahead?

00:08:35.920 No, no, no.

00:08:36.580 Go right ahead.

00:08:37.640 Well, no, I was good.

00:08:38.900 Yeah.

00:08:40.120 Everyone go ahead.

00:08:41.140 No, I was just going to say that, that I think that's a big part of it that you hit

00:08:44.320 their last things at the end where you're talking about the committee taking over, right?

00:08:49.040 Like one of the things about these is that there's such an involved production.

00:08:53.320 They happen over time, like Gio was talking about and because they happen over time and

00:08:57.900 unlike a movie, they end up with a lot more writers.

00:09:00.600 Like movies get notes, of course, like they, they have the studio process and in many ways 0.98

00:09:05.300 movies are, are now so much more made by committee, which is why they're such garbage now.

00:09:09.760 But this is even more true, uh, true TV shows because no one's writing like the full run for

00:09:15.100 the most part of these shows.

00:09:16.780 And so that means that you've got many, many different hands that can shape and craft this

00:09:21.260 set as it goes, each one is getting different kinds of notes.

00:09:24.460 Each one is bringing their agenda to it.

00:09:26.820 And over time, when you have kind of this woke subversion throughout Hollywood, even if there's

00:09:30.960 a singular vision that was provided by a showrunner that might've been more based, the people who

00:09:35.880 are going to come in after them, the people are going to have control of that project, especially

00:09:38.900 as it grows and becomes more important as a media franchise and needs to appeal and have

00:09:43.460 its rough parts smoothed out for a wider distribution.

00:09:46.960 You're going to see that stuff creep in over and over again.

00:09:49.260 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:52.000 But, oh, sir, you go ahead, Les.

00:09:54.980 Yeah, I think, I guess one, one other point to add about, about this is I think it's when

00:10:00.800 we were dealing, I mean, Gio's right.

00:10:02.800 We are kind of living in the, the era and the epoch of, of the series.

00:10:06.780 And when we were, we're, when the primary art form was really just film, you had a lot

00:10:13.260 of films that were kind of a reaction or a revision of existing, pre-existing movies or genres

00:10:22.080 that, that really kind of came out as a critique.

00:10:24.820 I mean, one example that I've used in one of my videos is the Unforgiven with Clint Eastwood.

00:10:32.100 That's a Western that's, that's really an anti-Western.

00:10:35.600 A lot of people have written about it, but it's, it's something that's trying to kind

00:10:40.040 of critique the John Ford style cookie cutter Western of, you know, the lone gunman, the

00:10:48.680 kind of earlier Clint Eastwood movies, like the good and the bad and the ugly.

00:10:52.000 Uh, and, and, and it, it, it, it, it's something that came out of a critique of Westerns.

00:10:59.640 It would not exist were it not commenting on these more straightforward and simplified genre

00:11:06.160 films, but now it's, it's, that critique happens within the same artifact within the same, uh,

00:11:15.620 within the same narrative.

00:11:17.820 And it's, it's so, um, it's so, it's so jarring and strange.

00:11:23.200 You can sort of see sometimes this battle, this, this struggle for happening within a show.

00:11:32.820 I find myself sort of watching two dramas at once.

00:11:35.860 There's the superficial surface level drama of a television program.

00:11:40.400 And then there's sort of what the, the, what I'm able to read in as sort of the political

00:11:47.160 drama occurring within the executive producers or the writer's room, um, for these, you know,

00:11:55.460 for these characters or for the, um, the messaging.

00:11:58.980 And I mean, that, that is really what, um, I'm trying to kind of articulate.

00:12:04.240 I know obviously people are going to have different interpretations of, of paintings or that there's,

00:12:09.700 there's always the possibility that a, a very talented critic could, um, provide an interpretation,

00:12:16.640 uh, that, that undermines the intentionality of the, the writer.

00:12:22.140 You know, we could go full Foucault here and death of the, death of the, the author, but I think

00:12:26.560 I'm describing something that's a lot less, um, subtle than anything that Foucault was getting

00:12:31.500 at.

00:12:31.760 I'm not talking about, you know, the writer's intentionality doesn't matter because of whatever

00:12:37.140 subconscious desires or, um, you know, political power structures to which their subject are

00:12:46.960 subtly inflecting their work.

00:12:49.420 I'm talking about people just getting kicked out of the writer's room or the director getting

00:12:54.100 kicked out of the director's chair by woke Janissaries. 0.82

00:12:57.600 I think to give you a genealogy though, speaking of Foucault, uh, someone mentioned, I think

00:13:03.360 Merkley mentioned Stalker, can you, can you woke up by Stalker?

00:13:06.100 You can't because Stalker is like the quintessential anti-woke film.

00:13:09.980 Uh, not, no, I shouldn't say that.

00:13:11.540 No, Stalker is a metaphysical film that defied basically every film censorship board in the

00:13:16.720 Soviet Union at the time.

00:13:18.100 Uh, I have, I, my Patreon actually, I have a bit about Stalker.

00:13:21.780 Uh, but what, so there was this question, I believe it was around December before Christmas.

00:13:27.620 Someone asked, it was one of these viral tweets.

00:13:29.860 They asked, um, when did Hollywood become woke?

00:13:33.740 What show was it where it started?

00:13:35.840 And of course people give out the answers like sex in the city. 0.96

00:13:39.460 Um, you know, what's another, um, house I saw a few times house you could say because

00:13:44.960 medical dramas always are at the field, but here's, here's a little red pill for you guys.

00:13:49.300 You want to know the real beginning of it?

00:13:51.780 Go all the way back to the late seventies, early eighties, Norman Lear, all of it, except

00:13:59.080 for Sanford and Sons, mostly, mostly all of the Norman Lear shows, like all in the family

00:14:04.120 mod was about women's lib on the families, but multiculturalism like this was the genesis 0.99

00:14:10.960 Norman Lear and his television empire was like directly the genesis of like quote unquote

00:14:16.340 woke daytime television.

00:14:18.100 And people don't know this because if you look at the later seasons of all in the family,

00:14:21.360 for instance, they were like, you know, um, what, what was the wife's name?

00:14:26.600 Uh, Oh, what was her name?

00:14:28.700 Um, the, the wife, she died later in the seasons, um, Archie Bunker's wife.

00:14:33.600 What was her name?

00:14:34.520 I forget.

00:14:35.260 Um, but you know, she befriends like a lesbian and there's a thing about, uh, you know, a 1.00

00:14:40.580 certain medical procedure all the time.

00:14:42.460 Uh, yeah.

00:14:43.160 Someone mentioned Grey's Anatomy, Grey's Anatomy of course was the acceleration of it.

00:14:46.260 And when you actually look at the evolution, for example, of medical shows in particular,

00:14:50.540 you could like see like they progressively go, for example, house, there's like this ambiguity

00:14:56.820 there where they have to topple the old order of like Christian religious America.

00:15:01.760 And so house, Oh yeah.

00:15:03.660 Edith.

00:15:04.000 Sorry.

00:15:04.260 Thank you, Chad.

00:15:04.860 Edith.

00:15:05.440 So house was like the, the, the peak of like the new atheists, you know, like the four horsemen. 0.96

00:15:12.220 And so you have like house debating about God with Watson.

00:15:15.460 And, but then by the time you get to the newer medical shows, like Grey's Anatomy, then you

00:15:20.000 get to even newer shows nowadays.

00:15:21.800 Like, um, what's that one new Amsterdam every single week.

00:15:25.660 It's about like trans and a certain other medical procedure.

00:15:29.300 Like they hit you in the face with it, but if you look at the history of television, it's

00:15:34.100 slowly, but surely creeps towards a certain direction.

00:15:36.920 And other people are pointing the chat Star Trek.

00:15:38.840 I mean, I grew up in a Star Trek household, but I realized that, you know, very early on

00:15:43.180 Star Trek was sort of like the, uh, end of history dream, you know, even, yeah, yeah.

00:15:48.880 Yeah.

00:15:49.340 No, I think it's interesting that you, you make the point about medical shows.

00:15:52.600 Cause what's interesting is the way they end up woke most of the time or some of their

00:15:57.000 most, uh, aggressively woke ones are always episodes where like the doctor has to make

00:16:02.500 decisions in contradiction to the parent, right?

00:16:05.580 The, the parent is backwards. 0.92

00:16:07.080 The parent has some silly religious faith or some kind of, uh, you know, backwards idea 0.96

00:16:11.860 about how we do things. 0.58

00:16:13.480 And it's really important that I, as an enlightened, you know, progressive, uh, professional step

00:16:19.240 in and separate this poor child from the authority of their backward parent so that I can now, 1.00

00:16:24.620 you know, use the authority of the state to press this onto these, you know, these rubes, 0.99

00:16:29.120 these chuds that hold, that clings to their gods and their guns. 0.64

00:16:31.820 Right.

00:16:32.200 So I do think I had not thought about it that way, but, but that is very interesting.

00:16:35.840 But before we get too far into just wokeness in general, cause we, we will hit that for

00:16:40.980 sure.

00:16:41.260 I do want to get to the specific shows that we had kind of talked about here so that we

00:16:46.160 can kind of ground this.

00:16:47.120 We have a lot, we have a lot of these ideas floating on the surface, but I want to tie this

00:16:51.180 to kind of the particular process that we're talking about.

00:16:53.640 So the first things that last thing had sent me was, uh, the boys, which I think is interesting

00:16:59.780 because when I watched the boys, I saw at the very beginning, they're just dunking on

00:17:05.380 Christians, right? 1.00

00:17:06.000 They have these really dumb, like really, really ugly, um, uh, you know, pot shots at Christians 1.00

00:17:13.060 right away. 0.99

00:17:13.640 So I didn't really see it as a base show, but then last things had, you know, some critiques

00:17:19.560 about, uh, the boys that pointed to some of the things that they were attacking.

00:17:23.600 They were talking about corporatization, militarization.

00:17:26.860 They were talking about kind of the veneer, the neoliberal veneer of a lot of this stuff.

00:17:31.880 So there are some messages in there that you're looking for it that I could see as base.

00:17:35.760 So, so last things, do you want to lay out kind of the groundwork for this transition

00:17:39.540 of the boys?

00:17:40.240 Yeah, yeah, sure.

00:17:42.020 I'll, I'll, I'll do my best.

00:17:43.340 And, um, as, as Oren mentioned, I do have like a three-part video series where I go into

00:17:48.100 depth, uh, about the boys.

00:17:50.280 Um, but I won't, I won't take 90 minutes to do this.

00:17:53.720 You're, you're, you're right to point out, Oren, that there's a lot of anti-Christian messaging

00:17:58.020 right out the gate in that show. 0.87

00:17:59.640 Although in, in defense of the boys, Garth Innes, who wrote the comics is, um, that's kind

00:18:06.920 of something that happens throughout his comics as well.

00:18:09.020 I don't know if any of you guys read like Preacher.

00:18:11.180 I was like, I was a nineties comic kid.

00:18:13.120 So that kind of, um, proto new atheism has been part of Garth Ennis's work.

00:18:18.640 Um, so that's not necessarily something that the, uh, the studio, uh, had to, had to add

00:18:25.100 in there, but I think focusing on the part of the show that was always the most fascinating

00:18:30.280 and innovative and fun for me was the soups, um, like the superheroes, which are just these 0.98

00:18:36.300 other utterly, you know, cynical black comedy, um, pot shots at, you know, Cape, Cape shit 0.98

00:18:45.060 Marvel movies. 0.98

00:18:46.420 Um, and that's really where the, the, the heart and the soul of the show lives.

00:18:51.860 Um, there's a, and there's a ton of kind of bureaucracy with the, um, the superheroes dealing

00:18:59.100 with the, the mega corporation that, that, that runs them that sort of subtly mirrors what

00:19:05.100 you imagine a, um, uh, uh, uh, a TV show to be like, right.

00:19:11.980 So there's a kind of a meta commentary going on because all of the superheroes are in care

00:19:16.520 are terribly concerned about their, their Nielsen ratings and the, uh, you know, that

00:19:20.760 their Twitter followings and their presence and their personas.

00:19:24.880 Um, but, uh, in particular, like the, the figure of Homelander, who's this sort of composite

00:19:30.660 sketch of, of Superman and Captain America, sort of the most absurdly patriotic, um, superhero,

00:19:38.980 wears like a red, white, and blue spandex, uh, in the, in season one, he's sort of this

00:19:45.600 personification of just terrible corporate insincere canned, um, come overly commodified

00:19:55.840 media.

00:19:57.400 Um, and I, I think, and I, I honestly, I know I've heard sort of secondhand from people in

00:20:04.420 the industry that they did not like, they, the, the show, the show was somewhat surprised

00:20:12.600 at the, uh, affection and attention that it received from its audience as, as sort of a

00:20:20.420 potentially dissident show.

00:20:22.100 Um, the people that, that were complimenting it and, and found value in it were not necessarily,

00:20:28.880 you know, Overton window libs, but, um, so by, by season two, all of this stuff gets, gets

00:20:38.500 subverted and in a really, really kind of ham fisted, absurd ways.

00:20:43.800 Like they, they attempt to sort of transform Homelander into more of like a, like a Donald

00:20:50.440 Trump figure or somebody who's trying to like seed QAnon, you know, style.

00:20:56.700 Don't they fight like a white knack group? 0.99

00:20:58.820 Is that their main enemy?

00:21:00.140 Well, and I mean, the big, I mean the big, the big.

00:21:02.260 They literally named the new character like Stormfront.

00:21:04.840 Stormfront.

00:21:05.280 Yeah.

00:21:05.660 The biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest wrench that they throw into the gears

00:21:11.540 is that he like.

00:21:13.340 That's beautiful.

00:21:14.500 Girlfriend.

00:21:15.440 There's a new superhero that comes, that joins his team.

00:21:18.280 Who's an ex Nazi, uh, that he fall, you know, he, he, he winds up becoming romantically

00:21:24.200 involved in and she just sort of starts, uh, corrupting him and feeding his ego and persuading

00:21:30.700 him into being, being more of a, more of a right-wing megalomaniac than a left-wing

00:21:35.460 megalomaniac.

00:21:36.680 Well, you're really underselling this though, because like she comes in and they, they sell

00:21:41.100 her as like, uh, she's the anti-woke person, right?

00:21:44.480 Like she comes in and she's not, you know, she's not playing the game.

00:21:48.060 Everyone else is playing.

00:21:49.300 She's not doing, you know, she's a strong female, but she doesn't. 1.00

00:21:52.060 She's the huntress, the feminism and everything. 1.00

00:21:54.480 Right.

00:21:54.840 Like, so, so they, they really lean into this on the way up.

00:21:58.720 And then of course it turns out that actually she's leading him down this path.

00:22:03.320 Right.

00:22:04.100 Yeah.

00:22:04.340 And it's funny too, because I like when, when it first started, when they first introduced

00:22:08.180 Stormfront, I mean, it's obvious from the name and from, you know, she has this like

00:22:12.160 all black SS style uniform.

00:22:14.900 She's got this, you know, haircut that's kind of fashy new wave fashion. 1.00

00:22:20.100 So it's obvious that they're like the, the, the aesthetics are, you know, mid-century

00:22:25.220 German.

00:22:26.000 But when it, when it, when it first started with the first few episodes, I still thought

00:22:30.460 that that was this meta commentary on like on, on wokeness in some way.

00:22:37.560 Cause I was like, they're going to make her woke, but it's really saying that like woke

00:22:40.860 people are as intolerant as, um, you know, as, as the, the mid-century Germans or something 1.00

00:22:48.880 like that.

00:22:49.280 I didn't think that they were going to go full bore.

00:22:51.980 Oh no, she is in fact, like she's been, she, she, I mean, she was alive during world

00:22:57.740 war II.

00:22:58.460 She's like, you know, quasi-immortal.

00:23:01.900 Wait, she gets de-radicalized and then she becomes woke.

00:23:04.780 Is that what it, the whole thing is?

00:23:06.120 No, she doesn't.

00:23:06.960 She, it was, it was as, as Oren was trying to describe it.

00:23:10.160 It's, it's kind of a bait and switch.

00:23:11.780 You, you, you suspect that she is going to be kind of like the character that's, um,

00:23:17.740 that's taking the piss out of everything.

00:23:20.400 Um, and you, and you know, so that people kind of sympathize with her.

00:23:24.940 She seems kind of cynical and, um, uh, and with it, but then they, as the season progresses,

00:23:31.880 she gets more and more homicidal and, and, and crazy and, and more and more of a cartoon 1.00

00:23:37.580 character.

00:23:38.180 Or, you know, they were trying to pull like the libs of the real Austrian painters, but

00:23:42.240 it just didn't work.

00:23:43.140 Like, is that, well, no, it's much worse.

00:23:45.560 Like they, it's, it's, uh, we want to, so, so the interesting part about this, like the,

00:23:51.560 the, the based part that last things is talk about the reason that the, the show had its

00:23:55.680 audience in the beginning is that they're, so they're attacking all the things that were

00:24:00.480 safe to attack back when like George W.

00:24:03.160 Bush was in charge.

00:24:03.900 Yeah, it's safe edgy.

00:24:04.720 Yeah.

00:24:05.000 Corporate corporations are bad.

00:24:07.380 You know, pharmaceutical companies are bad.

00:24:09.360 Media companies are controlled by, by the government, blah, blah, blah.

00:24:12.900 So they're doing this routine.

00:24:14.300 The problem is that all the things that they're targeting now are very obviously run by progressives

00:24:19.000 today.

00:24:19.340 Oh, I get, yeah.

00:24:20.760 So it's the lag between when the comic is written.

00:24:23.960 Exactly.

00:24:24.660 But the cultural lag between the nineties attack and the actual people in power of the, in these

00:24:31.160 positions in 2022 means that the people they're attacking is inadvertently the progressives.

00:24:38.320 And so once people start picking up of like, oh, wait, all the people who like this show

00:24:42.400 like it because it's actually attacking progressive institutions.

00:24:45.460 They need to find a way to like make it very clear that actually all these institutions

00:24:50.220 are secretly Nazi institutions.

00:24:53.280 And so like, and so this character has to turn out to have been like seeding this ideology

00:24:58.240 into all these interactions.

00:25:00.440 We have to make it very clear.

00:25:01.560 We're not attacking like woke Google or woke Apple or, you know, woke Merrill Lynch.

00:25:07.800 These corporations are all actually secretly mid-century Germans.

00:25:13.280 And so now we're on the right team guys, right?

00:25:16.780 Everyone's on the same team.

00:25:17.980 It's almost like an irony leftist view of reality where it's like, you know, um, the

00:25:22.600 CIA funded fascist groups in South America.

00:25:25.100 It's all about that.

00:25:26.640 It's all about like, it's all about the corporations.

00:25:29.560 Actually, they're secretly in bed with, uh, I guess Russia's all funding us.

00:25:33.480 Orin, do you get money from the Kremlin?

00:25:35.280 It's incredibly difficult to get rubles in Canada nowadays, but you know.

00:25:38.620 Tuesdays and Thursdays, you know, the conversion's a little weird, but we work it out.

00:25:41.480 Yeah, but you know what I mean?

00:25:43.620 It's, it's basically like the woke Bernie bro view of reality where the corporations

00:25:47.000 are actually against us.

00:25:48.500 Oh, by the way, it's like, Noam Chomsky saying that academia is ultra right wing because

00:25:52.300 they take money.

00:25:53.340 It's like that, you know, yeah.

00:25:55.460 Not to like, you know, beat up on the old man, but it's, but like you were saying that

00:25:59.300 culture lag between the Bush era, um, it reminds me and like, forgive me for using this

00:26:04.040 example.

00:26:04.440 I know he's not our guy.

00:26:05.800 Right.

00:26:06.260 And, and he's speaking of irony leftist, but, uh, there was this, um, article by Sam

00:26:10.260 Chris.

00:26:10.480 Do you remember Sam Chris Orton when he was back?

00:26:12.600 No.

00:26:12.980 When he got canceled?

00:26:13.980 Well, he was like one of those, he was hovering around Chapo, but he's a great writer though.

00:26:18.100 I got to give him that.

00:26:18.900 He's a great writer.

00:26:19.820 He's a great cultural critic.

00:26:20.820 And he had this article about the new matrix movie where he said there was this moment

00:26:25.620 in the like late nineties where you had the slew of media, whether it was like, um, certain

00:26:31.380 television shows, like the outer limits, whether it was the matrix itself or like existence,

00:26:35.680 which I feel is like the more mature work, you know, by Cronenberg.

00:26:39.300 And basically you could critique the system as being an illusion.

00:26:43.760 And it was sort of like, all of this isn't real, but then he goes, as time goes on, when

00:26:48.940 it comes to the 2010s, the sort of cultural evolution of the 2010s, now it's no longer

00:26:53.820 question everything.

00:26:54.580 Now it's like, listen and believe, right?

00:26:56.540 So now media is telling you that it's not the system and it's sort of intransigent ideology.

00:27:01.320 That's the problem, or it's rather like these other things.

00:27:04.860 And the system is there to give you salvation.

00:27:07.800 If you like, you know, consume product and like, you know, get excited for the new show

00:27:12.680 or a new season or whatever.

00:27:14.120 So that cultural shift is, it's hugely significant.

00:27:17.180 And when you see all these shows, like, especially like as soon as they hit like the mid 2000s

00:27:22.620 and the 2010s, then you could start to see it.

00:27:25.160 Like it's, it's cop shows, you know, like, uh, one of the last great ones was the shield.

00:27:30.500 I'm currently watching.

00:27:31.380 Oh man.

00:27:32.020 Yeah.

00:27:32.160 That's an amazing show.

00:27:33.240 You know, it's what's interesting is that I have not, I have not watched the shield,

00:27:37.980 but every time I, I, I go to Twitter or I, or I talk to anybody, any of our guys,

00:27:42.480 and I'm like, what do I watch?

00:27:44.360 I need something to watch.

00:27:45.860 Can I please, please tell me something that it's not gonna, that isn't woke.

00:27:49.840 And it's not going to become woke every single time.

00:27:52.160 People just tell me to watch the shield.

00:27:54.200 And they're right.

00:27:54.960 Yeah.

00:27:55.800 What do we do?

00:27:56.680 Does it get subverted at any, at any point?

00:27:59.260 No, no.

00:28:02.020 I'm shocked.

00:28:03.140 They let it, they let it get greenlit for seven seasons.

00:28:05.860 Incredible.

00:28:06.180 But, um, it's, you know, what's funny though, is if you watch, um, like other Anglosphere 0.81

00:28:11.600 shows around the two thousands, if you watch, for example, Australian or British cop dramas

00:28:17.020 or medical dramas, they start off having their colloquial sort of ways of doing things that

00:28:23.140 are unique to them.

00:28:24.000 Right.

00:28:24.740 Because they're still in, but the fact that they're still English language, as soon as

00:28:28.460 you get around to like 2007, 2006, then they have to like respond to the American culture

00:28:34.960 industry.

00:28:35.780 Like for example, when, um, when, what was that show?

00:28:39.300 CIA, uh, NCIS, that's NCIS.

00:28:41.960 Um, CSI was really big, right?

00:28:45.020 Yeah.

00:28:45.240 There's a million variations of it.

00:28:46.700 Yeah.

00:28:47.120 Yeah.

00:28:47.500 Yeah.

00:28:47.780 But the original one with Grisham, right?

00:28:50.000 Sure.

00:28:50.280 So if you look at like British cop shows and Australian cop shows, it's like, you could

00:28:56.740 see the later seasons transforming to be like, not necessarily woke, but like more like bombastic

00:29:03.520 and like action orientated and Americanized.

00:29:06.840 And so there was this like huge transition throughout the Anglosphere where basically

00:29:10.860 medical dramas, cop dramas, they had to basically conform to like the big, huge American culture

00:29:17.360 industry.

00:29:17.780 And of course this was the era before the internet like sunk everyone into different forms of

00:29:23.900 media because like back in the day, like everyone watched a CSI, like everyone watched, you

00:29:29.540 know, the game or whatever nowadays.

00:29:31.240 I mean, I think the culture industry is in some ways panicking because there is such a

00:29:35.780 dearth.

00:29:36.260 There's such like a, a glut of like media you can choose.

00:29:40.080 That's why streaming services are so big, you know?

00:29:42.520 So, I mean, that's my observation.

00:29:44.360 I think like the whole like cultural moment on mainstream media, they're still around,

00:29:50.200 but it's not as significant as like, for example, an internet meme going viral, like,

00:29:55.180 like a woman filming herself in the gym saying like, she's a 21 year old minority and the

00:30:00.060 guy's creeping on her like when he's not really right.

00:30:02.820 It's, it seems like they have no, they have little control over like mass cultural happenings

00:30:08.280 anymore, but I could be wrong.

00:30:09.900 I could be wrong.

00:30:10.460 What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue?

00:30:15.520 A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart

00:30:20.240 shopper and delivered to your door.

00:30:22.260 A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool.

00:30:26.720 Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered.

00:30:30.880 Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders.

00:30:35.740 Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply.

00:30:37.920 Buy Instacart groceries that over-deliver.

00:30:42.440 Well, the next one, uh, or did you have anything else you want to touch on with, uh, the boys

00:30:47.040 before we moved on there last things?

00:30:49.280 I don't think so.

00:30:50.520 Um, if, if people are curious, uh, my, the, um, I've got a three-parter on my channel.

00:30:57.620 They could, they could hear everything I have to say about it there and, and season one's

00:31:01.380 worth your time.

00:31:01.980 I'll say that much.

00:31:03.600 Yeah, yeah, no, you've, you've gone to it very through a very extensively and did a good

00:31:07.260 job.

00:31:07.640 So we'll direct people that way.

00:31:08.940 So the next one that you wanted to mention was Peaky Blinders.

00:31:11.760 Now this one is interesting because I really only watched the first season.

00:31:15.240 It was good, but I just wasn't like in a space where it grabbed me at the time.

00:31:19.000 And so I only saw that first season.

00:31:21.840 So I didn't see it go woke or, or, or kind of change over time.

00:31:25.720 But what were the things that you kind of saw in there last things that you saw where

00:31:29.020 was this transition?

00:31:30.640 Yeah, sure.

00:31:31.180 And I, you know, I will, I will admit that I feel like this is, this is a, a more subtle

00:31:37.300 shift and one that probably a lot of people that stuck with the show did not, did not

00:31:42.200 necessarily catch.

00:31:43.620 I really wish I could take off the, the nightmare vision goggles.

00:31:46.540 Like I, I can't even, I can't watch, just sit and watch shows with my wife anymore. 0.96

00:31:52.440 At some point I'll just step, I'll step up and leave the room and say, no, it just went,

00:31:56.620 it just went, went, went woke.

00:31:58.240 But so Peaky Blinders is it's based off an actual historical person in a historical gang

00:32:07.400 from post-World War I England, it's specifically the city of Birmingham and the character of Tommy

00:32:15.960 Shelby, who basically became, it's, if you could think of it as sort of like World War

00:32:20.460 I era British Sopranos.

00:32:22.540 It's about this crime family.

00:32:24.000 It's a family of gypsies that sort of establishes this criminal empire. 1.00

00:32:28.600 Very, very gritty, very noir.

00:32:31.200 The main character is this, this World War I veteran, total nihilist.

00:32:36.380 He's been shelled during the war, suffering from PTSD and is just, just kind of ruthless,

00:32:43.640 willing to do anything he can to, to, to, to get ahead in the world.

00:32:48.560 So very, very, very much a noir style show, beautifully shot.

00:32:54.920 And so fast forward, however, I forget if it's on season four or season five, but, but

00:33:01.700 the latest season, essentially the, the arch nemesis, the, the main villain of, of the

00:33:08.380 last season is another historic, an actual historical person, Sir Oswald Mosley, who was the, the leader

00:33:16.080 of the British fascist party.

00:33:18.900 What?

00:33:19.180 Really?

00:33:19.920 And he is, and Thomas Shelby is like a secret agent working for Winston Churchill to try and

00:33:27.500 undermine Oswald Mosley, Mosley's ascension, because he's about to, you know, get everybody,

00:33:33.260 he's going to, he's going to start World War II or, or turn, turn the UK into a, a nightmare. 0.91

00:33:41.440 And there's other subtle things too.

00:33:42.980 So like this is, I think, I think the BBC and, and British stuff, not that this is a

00:33:48.260 BBC, BBC show, but I just noticed things in the UK seem to have an even harder time of

00:33:54.340 this, but like, you know, Thomas Shelby has a sister who's now in a, in a mixed race relationship

00:34:00.300 and, and pregnant with a, a biracial child.

00:34:04.060 And this is like, it's 1920s Birmingham, England, and like somehow half the characters,

00:34:12.980 are in mixed race relationships, like, like everything.

00:34:17.360 And it just, you know, it breaks the, it breaks the, the, the, the mirage.

00:34:22.840 They got an actor that looks like Oswald Mosley.

00:34:25.440 My God.

00:34:26.780 Yeah.

00:34:27.340 Yeah.

00:34:27.880 Yeah.

00:34:28.240 But, but, um, I, yeah.

00:34:29.720 And I'm just like, there's probably no, like Tommy shell, the real Tommy Shelby probably

00:34:34.620 had no qualms with Oswald Mosley whatsoever.

00:34:40.060 Probably not.

00:34:40.800 I could imagine like it was violent gang leaders from the 1920s weren't super progressive is

00:34:47.300 what you're telling me.

00:34:48.020 Like they, they might have had some backwards views, uh, you know, on these things, things

00:34:53.940 that today, uh, the, the left would have found very offensive, but, but we can't portray them

00:34:58.560 that way that instead they're all on board with the plan.

00:35:01.680 Exactly.

00:35:02.260 And, and I mean, the whole, the whole premise of the show is that, that Shelby is this, this

00:35:07.300 anti-hero who's only out for himself, not, not seeking redemption sort of refuses any,

00:35:14.360 any kind of, um, black and white definition or understanding of good and evil.

00:35:19.980 And then, and then, I mean, very similar, I mean, this, I often the, um, the woke Trojan

00:35:26.080 horse comes in the form of a Nazi or pro like, you know, pseudo Nazi, um, to, to, to focus

00:35:37.560 the, um, the hero's attention or the, the main character's attention, um, and, and to draw

00:35:43.220 the, the, the viewer's attention away from, um, liberal writing and really, yeah, precisely,

00:35:51.720 precisely.

00:35:52.520 So, um, yeah, I mean, if neither of you are that familiar with the show, we don't have

00:35:55.680 to talk about it.

00:35:56.940 No, but that is amazing that they, that they managed to transition it to like, yeah, there

00:36:00.660 happens to be a fascist leader of Britain.

00:36:02.500 That's who he's badly, even though he's like a gang member.

00:36:05.120 It's like, uh, the rocketeer when he ends up fighting the, the, the, the mobsters end up

00:36:09.860 fighting the Nazis at the end.

00:36:10.920 Well, I'm still an American, right?

00:36:12.220 Like all of a sudden the U S government and gangsters are in a shootout with the, the

00:36:16.920 Nazis, you know, we'll get to the walking dead, Charles, but, uh, here's a question

00:36:22.280 for you, or, and actually, can you, or I, about, well, both of you, although Gio, you

00:36:26.340 kind of mentioned, you know, you, you see this dating back to shows in the seventies

00:36:29.700 or eighties, but could either of you pinpoint, I mean, I don't know if either of you suffer

00:36:33.380 this as much as I do, but I let it like, I really, I want to, I want to go back.

00:36:37.520 I want, I want the blue pill at least when, when it comes to like.

00:36:42.220 Well, I want the blue.

00:36:43.420 I want a very specific window of blue pilling in which I can like sit on my couch at the

00:36:51.160 end of the day and watch 30 to 90 minutes of television without the nightmare vision

00:36:57.600 goggles perceiving the, the, the subtext and propaganda of every, every piece of media.

00:37:04.840 But can you, if you yourselves find yourself in that situation, could you, could you pinpoint

00:37:10.760 a moment or a TV show where that, that happened, where you started to just like realize that you

00:37:18.480 were observing, um, the, the, the propagandistic elements of a show? You could, you could read

00:37:26.340 the agit prop the same way that you were, you were absorbing the plot.

00:37:30.920 I think maybe.

00:37:33.220 What did you notice a puppeteer's hands?

00:37:38.020 It could have been a house with the fedora tipping. I don't know. Maybe, maybe even earlier.

00:37:42.480 I don't know. What do you think, Orrin? I mean, I can't think of one show, but I can say that

00:37:47.540 probably about four, four or five years ago, it got to the point where I could start the clock

00:37:54.100 on shows and be like, how many, you know, my, my father-in-law has this game. Like he, he could,

00:38:00.100 he'll watch any show, but he'll basically throw it in the trash the minute it gets woke. And so like,

00:38:06.380 he'll, he'll start an episode and be like, Nope, started right away. Done. Or, you know, he'll get a

00:38:10.560 half a season. He's like, Nope, they already dropped all the, all they checked all the boxes on all the

00:38:14.400 characters. It's all coming. I can see it a mile away. So I wouldn't say that there's one show that

00:38:19.780 immediately said, okay, this, this is what's happening now. And all TV is going to be this

00:38:24.680 way. But I can say that probably about five years ago, I started feeling the creep, like where every

00:38:31.020 show I started was like, all right, how long is it going to be until we get the trans? How long is

00:38:36.080 it going to be until we get the speech about racial injustice? How long is it going to be until two

00:38:40.400 characters disappear to be replaced by those that meet all the progressive checkboxes? Like you

00:38:45.840 could, you could start feeling those, you know, especially the character replacements. Like when

00:38:50.400 all of a sudden it's like, well, the main character needs a few more friends, you know, that looks a

00:38:56.220 little too much like a, you know, like a barbecue in Milwaukee here. So we really got to switch this

00:39:00.660 over, you know, too many primary colors. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. More, more, more, more colors of

00:39:06.500 Benetton in the show. Sorry, I got to forgive me. That was a quote from Oz where Vern Schillinger,

00:39:12.880 the AB leader, he's like, you notice there's a lack of primary colors around here. That was a

00:39:18.600 great show, by the way, before the Sopranos, I think the template of HBO was laid out with Oz,

00:39:23.780 but it's a dark, dark world where you have to go back to a show about gay prison prostitution to 0.69

00:39:30.460 find something that's not, that's not, you know, overly, it truly was anti-woke, like the prison 0.87

00:39:36.320 prag stuff. But, uh, no, Oz was truly an incredible show, even though like near the end, you had to

00:39:41.280 like suspend your disbelief. But, um, what I was going to say about Peaky Blinders is that it seems

00:39:46.700 that, you know, there's a, a sort of like neurotic, wow. I mean, the left is all neurotic character,

00:39:53.180 but there's a certain like fixation or fetishism or neurotic fixation with like the underclass 0.75

00:40:01.700 as harboring revolutionary sentiment. It seems like it, like even Oz, I hate to say, had this as well,

00:40:08.460 like Kareem Saeed, the leader of the Muslims had this speech about it, right? Where essentially

00:40:13.340 criminality is equated with like, these are the ripe underclasses to commit the revolution. And you 0.99

00:40:21.000 have like this leftist, like literally dating back to the October revolution, you have this like

00:40:25.460 leftist obsession in the West with like, well, actually Mohican wholesome criminal underclasses, 1.00

00:40:32.440 they're the ones that can be the foot soldiers of the revolution. And we see this nowadays with

00:40:37.000 certain, uh, one very prominent group, uh, that came into the news recently in Atlanta. We all know

00:40:42.960 that one, right? Um, the, the one that the FBI is pretty sure doesn't exist. Exactly. They don't exist

00:40:49.240 by the way, they're like mafia to, you know, they don't exist. Uh, but the, it's like this sort of

00:40:54.840 like revolutionary. Yeah, exactly. The Langdon industry is revolutionary pornography where

00:40:58.440 the underclasses, they're criminals, but at least they're not Austrian painter fans. And actually 0.94

00:41:05.240 they're the vitalistic spirit of the, you know, they have this vitalistic spirit that can overturn the

00:41:12.280 regime. And it's like criminality is actually good. And because they're the foot soldiers of the

00:41:16.580 revolution. So, and it seems like consistently in like leftist media, that is like, like comic

00:41:22.640 books have that where, you know, actually the criminal underclass, they're like the downtrodden 1.00

00:41:27.880 subalterns that can lead to the better utopian future. Um, if we just empty out the prison 0.99

00:41:34.080 streets, sorry, go ahead. So I have to concept, but I have to jump in here just because there's a show

00:41:40.560 that I watched that was so ridiculous and fits right into this perfectly. It's not one that we

00:41:45.080 discussed earlier, but, but I gotta throw it in. So there's this new musketeer, uh, uh, redo. I

00:41:51.160 think it was the BBC that did it. So they're doing the three musketeers and it's, you know, it's

00:41:55.460 everything you hope it isn't right. Like, you know, it's, it turned, it turns out that actually

00:42:00.340 all of sub-Saharan Africa showed up to France at this time, but like one of the, one of the

00:42:05.460 amazing things is, so one of the, um, one of the, uh, musketeers ends up getting into a romantic

00:42:14.040 relationship with a, uh, black, uh, revolutionary who is a new immigrant, uh, into the area. And

00:42:23.340 she comes in and she immediately starts printing pamphlets about, you know, she literally just

00:42:28.980 like, this is their, their storyline. They created this. It feels like something that

00:42:33.280 like, um, you know, that some kind of white nationalist might create as propaganda. Like

00:42:38.540 she, she comes in and she immediately comes in and says like, I'm, I'm the one who's going 0.94

00:42:45.920 to lead a revolution. Literally just showed up. Like these people are feeding her, like

00:42:49.520 clothing her. She just got back from a war, but it's like, I'm not being treated correctly.

00:42:53.760 So I'm going to lead an uprising. And she starts like printing subversive literature and gathering

00:42:58.980 all the immigrants together so that they can start like riots over this thing. And like, 1.00

00:43:04.000 this is the person you're supposed to be rooting for. Of course, like, like she's a hero because

00:43:09.400 she just showed up to France and she's immediately leading like bread riots with, uh, with all of 0.99

00:43:15.460 the people who just traveled into France against the people who are like feeding and housing them

00:43:20.060 as refugees from a war that like, they just escaped. And like this, this, this is the hero

00:43:25.340 of the show. And so like, it doesn't even occur to them like that. They might be portraying like

00:43:31.280 something that people might not want to happen in there. Like this might be some kind of cautionary

00:43:36.280 tale about, you know, it's, it's insane. Like, like they, they, they, they're completely, it's like

00:43:42.600 that Netflix show, uh, that they had where like the portrayed like camp of the saints, but like

00:43:47.500 they're for it. So it's fine. Like, uh, like, I don't know if you guys saw that trailer for that

00:43:53.700 one, but it's amazing, but it's the same thing. It's like, Oh yeah. Like this is something that

00:43:58.480 like the farthest right, you know, person in the world might, might warn you against in their like

00:44:03.380 hysterical, you know, dystopian novel. And we're just portraying it as like the heroic thing that's

00:44:09.140 happening. So we're on board. It's it's celebration parallax, like all over the place. It's sort of like

00:44:13.760 that new book by who's that journalist yak mood. Is that his name where he's like, Oh yeah. Like

00:44:20.100 the end of Christians or white guys or something. Is that, yeah. It's like basically like everything 0.98

00:44:24.500 like Richard Spencer believed in 2007 is correct, but actually it's evil. So that's why we have to

00:44:31.740 fight harder. Um, it reminds me of the example of, uh, the, there I, maybe I shouldn't recommend it's

00:44:40.060 a little too edgy, but there is one of the best movie review sites is sold cinema. I believe Jack,

00:44:44.980 the perfect nationalist interviewed the guy and they had this review of, uh, and here, here's my

00:44:50.000 crazy thesis. Uh, cause I'm an Italian myself here in Canada. Right. So, um, you know, uh, do the right

00:44:56.500 thing. Right. Um, yeah. Right. By Spike Lee. Was it Spike Lee or Spike Joe? I think it was Spike. I'm not

00:45:03.500 sure. I, I, I don't think I ever saw it, but like, I'm familiar with the movie. Yeah. But like,

00:45:08.940 basically it's like the evil racist Italian, uh, pizza shop owners against, you know, my heck yes, 0.97

00:45:15.640 Spike Lee, my heck and wholesome, you know, by POCs. And like, the whole point is like, he gives the 0.94

00:45:21.680 one guy a job, but that's not good enough. So it's like, then there's this like race war riot. And it's

00:45:28.760 like, it's, it's, I believe truly that that film was the final nail in the coffin of like Italians in 1.00

00:45:37.000 America being like, like sort of like Asians, like a semi minority, but still has the sort of 0.86

00:45:43.400 coding of white America after that Spike Lee film. Now Italians are racist. Ergo Italians are just 0.97

00:45:49.640 white people now, you know? So it's like the whole history of like Italian immigration in America and

00:45:56.260 anti-Catholicism and all that. Like that's against like one of the worst hate crimes ever happened in

00:46:01.180 America was against Italian village. Right. So, uh, a little Italy, but you know, that's all swept

00:46:06.040 on the rock now because we're racist against black people. So it's like, um, but the whole, 0.87

00:46:11.960 the premise of the film is that the sort of civil society that Italians largely conformed to that,

00:46:18.320 that was, they were complicit in the evil racism of it. So ergo, you know, you'd internalize the

00:46:25.320 culture and become a, you know, become a product of it. You were now critical for the system. Yeah.

00:46:30.880 How dare we give the, the, the, the guy a job, you know? No, I will say the Italians didn't do the 1.00

00:46:36.400 right thing. We're kind of like, I know someone posted the one dialogue on Twitter, the one pizza

00:46:41.780 shop, you know, they were racist. We were, we were Italians. We were racist. Don't worry about it. But

00:46:47.360 I think it was a bit over the top in terms of like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, I just had to say,

00:46:55.540 it's, it's funny to hear you describe your, your father-in-law's, um, game that he plays where you

00:47:00.980 watch him in until it goes woke, because I, this is my, the next video I'm working on is on, is on

00:47:05.880 Neil Gaiman's Sandman since that was recently. I wanted to talk about it so we can, we can talk

00:47:11.620 about that. Oh, definitely. I will definitely have you on to talk about it. But I told myself, I was

00:47:16.040 like, I know, I know this is going to make me upset. This is going to be terrible. So I, I, I made a deal

00:47:21.880 with myself. I said, I will watch this up until I encounter the first character, the first cherished

00:47:28.600 character that I remember from my, you know, my adolescence reading these comics is, has either

00:47:35.260 had their gender or their race reversed. And it was literally the first character that came on screen.

00:47:42.300 Yes. Yeah, no, that, that show is amazing because yeah, they, they, obviously they changed everything.

00:47:49.360 Like Constantine is a female. Now I've heard that, uh, defended because they don't, they can't have 1.00

00:47:55.020 the rights to the same Constantine because it's still like, it's still going in like the WB show

00:47:59.760 or whatever. So, so maybe you can give them a pass on that one, but yeah, no, like death, you know,

00:48:06.440 like, like the, the, the entire character is based around like the super pale goth girl. That's the

00:48:11.940 iconic look. That's like everything about that character. And yeah, no, completely re re racialized 0.67

00:48:17.700 immediately because of course. Um, so yeah, I know that, that show is a mess top to bottom,

00:48:22.680 which is very sad. Like it's weird because Neil Gaiman is of course, proto woke in some ways,

00:48:28.720 but in other ways, uh, his like Sandman is very aggressively, uh, uh, offensive for woke people.

00:48:37.180 Like there, there's an entire, like he introduces a trans character in some of the later comic books

00:48:42.340 for, for like a series, but the character is explicitly told by the gods that it's not female.

00:48:48.640 Like you can pretend all you want, but the gods know. And like, and, and the character is not

00:48:53.240 allowed to go on journeys that other characters go on because the gods don't care how you identify.

00:48:58.320 Like at the end of the day, like there is a truth that you cannot subvert, you know,

00:49:03.080 that they can see past you. So like it, it, so there it's weird because, because Gaiman talks

00:49:08.400 about like eternal truths in, in, in, in a kind of Petersonian way. Like he had, like there's

00:49:15.240 these different archetypes that are built in and these structures. And that's a lot of what Gaiman

00:49:18.580 is drawing on, even though he himself is very clearly like progressive in his ideology,

00:49:23.480 he's drawing on things that are too deep and ancient to subvert entirely. And so like a lot

00:49:29.180 of those things aren't he, he still carries too much baseness into his stories, even if he's trying

00:49:36.600 to subvert it in some ways. He's very interesting. I mean, I hate to use the word, but he is a

00:49:41.340 transitionary figure because he, I mean, he's somebody that's obviously completely. Most Gen X writers 0.79

00:49:47.460 are that. Yeah. Enmeshed in the, the Western literary tradition. I mean, a lot of the characters

00:49:53.140 within Sandman are like Mark Twain, William Shakespeare, characters from Greek mythology.

00:49:59.180 You know, he's, he's not, he, he, he's, he occupies this strange sort of, um, I don't know,

00:50:06.180 like, you know, missing Neanderthal cousin between like the missing link. No, but they could do it

00:50:14.120 though with mythological characters. I mean, there are a lot of academics that talk, talk about like

00:50:19.220 certain myths, like Inanna in, in Sumar that are like proto trans. Um, they, they always talk about 0.99

00:50:28.080 like, uh, I said this to me, Therese once where there's a huge body of academic literature where

00:50:33.740 like Christ is trans, like, and you know, like what they're doing, right? This is total subversion, 1.00

00:50:39.220 but even, even like the media of like yesteryear didn't seem that like bad, even though it had like

00:50:47.340 an anti-racist or like a proto-woke message, like Nullis, my good friend, Nullis in the chat.

00:50:52.060 Um, I said, my good friend, there you go. That's the geo bingo card right there. Uh, he said, he

00:50:57.320 mentioned the heat of the night, but in the heat of the night, like it was like proto anti-racist,

00:51:02.860 but it had like the whole like normie boomer con sort of like, they're both kind of prejudice.

00:51:09.060 Like that one scene where, um, they're like, uh, oh, what's his name? Like Rod Stagger's character,

00:51:16.100 the sheriff, he's talking to the detective and he's like, I want to get that white guy. And he's like, 0.68

00:51:21.620 Ooh, you're just like the rest of us, boy. And it's like that sort of recognition. But then

00:51:26.960 like, for example, if you were to remake in the heat of the night now, I could only imagine like

00:51:31.820 the terror of it. Like it would just be like totally over the top. Right. Like, which is

00:51:37.840 another thing. I think it's funny. Cause yes, last week on my channel, me and Prude, we were talking

00:51:43.020 about the, um, the Mark Fisher, um, lecture that came from his book, the slow cancellation of the

00:51:49.220 future, but his book was called ghost of my life, right. About hauntology. And it seems like a lot

00:51:54.380 of these like, and let's face it, they're mostly millennials in like my generation, the writing

00:51:59.580 staff nowadays of these shows on prime and Netflix and so forth. It's, it, it's very much like they've

00:52:05.740 submitted to the lackluster culture, killing phenomenon of like total, like post or hyper

00:52:13.820 modernity where Mark Fisher talks about, you know, everything can come back. There's no

00:52:18.740 distinction between past and future. You could take a classic like Velma from Scooby-Doo and make

00:52:24.460 her woke. And, you know, Fred is like a, a nep, a racist Nepo kid. And Velma is like this woke 0.96

00:52:31.460 goddess Mindy Kaling. And it's like, but really when you examine that, you would think that the

00:52:37.620 revolutionary left, that they would be the ones to create media that breaks through that

00:52:43.120 conditioning, but really no, the future isn't this utopian vision. The future is actually

00:52:48.340 the postmodern robbing of the past for the service of the present, which is really crazy.

00:52:55.240 They almost submitted to the reality of hauntology and all of these shows, like even the shows that

00:53:00.300 we're discussing now, they like have this pervasive, like trope nature. They're very tropey. It's like,

00:53:06.100 we're going to take old tropes and we're going to subvert them. It's like, that's good enough for us.

00:53:10.160 Like it's, it's just going to make money. Right. Cause all these like terminally nostalgic

00:53:14.660 millennials watch this crap, but who knows? 0.99

00:53:17.220 Gio, this is, this is really interesting. I have, I'm going to make you read the script to my, 0.99

00:53:21.360 to my Sandman video before I record it because you're, no, you're entering into like some of the

00:53:26.520 themes that, that I'm trying to explore. And I think that Sandman is a, a very strange and the

00:53:31.500 adaptation is something strange to examine because real, and Oren, Oren, you were touching on this too,

00:53:37.000 because what's so, what I I'm, I'm developing such a rarefied taste for like the, the woke

00:53:43.060 of vacation that, that like sometimes the, the decisions, the, the, the intricacies or the

00:53:49.480 subtleties of the decision-making is, is something that sticks with me and puzzles me because

00:53:54.140 Sandman, the whole series is, is, is honestly something you could not hand, hand a next,

00:54:00.880 a Netflix producer, a more perfectly gift wrapped multicultural, like, um, you know,

00:54:08.280 check off the boxes. I mean, they, like there are characters, their main character, like it is a

00:54:12.960 pan optic globalist series from the nineties, but they're like, you know, there are, there's,

00:54:18.940 there's stories about like African tribes. There's a character who's like, Oh, a white guy who's

00:54:25.680 immortal. That was a slave trader and is now in a relationship with a black woman. There's like, 0.83

00:54:30.520 Oh my God. That's how far they went. Orin mentioned, as Orin mentioned, there's like,

00:54:34.720 there's a trans character. There's like, I like women outnumber the men. It is some of the most,

00:54:39.740 uh, some of the most beautiful artwork from the series is the, uh, the, all the stories that take

00:54:44.180 place in, uh, in Arab countries. Like they're like, it travels the globe. Absolutely. Yeah. It's not, 1.00

00:54:49.440 it's not at all, you know, West, it is not necessarily like Western centric in its, in its

00:54:55.720 storytelling. But, um, the first slave owner, having a relationship with a slave, that would

00:55:02.340 be like, like, you know how they try to like, um, like basically destroy like the sort of American 0.85

00:55:08.800 history by like point out the slavery thing. I thought that was like abuse and exploitation,

00:55:13.480 other things that we can't say on YouTube. Like, like, why would they write that in there? I thought

00:55:17.860 that would like have the vibes would be all, because they're removed by generations. Oh,

00:55:22.480 okay. It's not the woman who was his slave is now his wife. It's, it's that like, yeah,

00:55:27.740 it's that you could write in a woke academic paper about like how that is the fetishism for the 0.95

00:55:33.240 subject. Yeah. It's taking it out at the end of the day. Yeah. It's, it's, see, this is why,

00:55:37.140 this is why, uh, the, the, the, maybe I shouldn't say, I shouldn't mention, I shouldn't cause beef

00:55:42.880 with you, uh, Orin, but this is why like the, the, the, the dark web, like James Lindsay's the

00:55:47.780 world. You have to actually like, you gotta read the woke text to really, you can just say it's

00:55:53.400 Gnosticism or something, but you know, hold on, hold on. But here's my, here's the main point I'm

00:55:57.780 trying to make about, about the Sandman subversion. So there's plenty of stuff that's just like handed

00:56:03.080 off the, the, and, and there are, but there are even characters who it would not be that glaring or

00:56:08.320 that offensive or that disruptive to the plot. If you change their race or their genders, they're, 0.99

00:56:13.620 there, there are still kind of characters that I would be like, okay, I'll give that to you. It's,

00:56:18.160 it's a freebie. But the, the first character that comes on screen, the one that I, I mentioned

00:56:22.720 was the, the original character in the comment comic book is Sandman's butler. Who's a, who's a,

00:56:30.040 a British Anglo archetype PG Wodehouse butler. Like this is the most, this is the most angle,

00:56:38.500 like the most archetypically Anglo like gentleman servant. And, and, you know, he's a, he's a,

00:56:46.720 a character in the dreaming. So he's supposed to like, what gives life to him, what gives form to

00:56:51.580 him is actually the fact that this does exist as an archetype within people's imaginations. Like

00:56:57.080 you think, but you hear the word butler, you think British, like stodgy British white dude.

00:57:02.260 And it's been, and the, and the character's name is, is, is now Lucienne and is being played by a woman

00:57:09.020 from Ghana. And it's, it's sort of, it's, that's the part that's so, that's so strange. And so,

00:57:16.140 so like, honestly, it's sort of, it's the horror. It, it, it, it verges on horror, the, the,

00:57:27.600 at the level at which they go to, to, to, to, to, to, to change and alter the characters where it

00:57:36.800 makes the least sense. It's the least plausible. It's the most, it's going to make, it's going to

00:57:41.840 be the, it's going to make the tiniest possible noise. You know, like they had a fat, there were,

00:57:46.820 there are dozens of characters that are, that would be less glaring. And, and, and that's the one

00:57:56.020 that they, they choose to sort of turn inside out. Sorry.

00:58:00.980 Isn't James Bond a black woman now? 0.99

00:58:03.860 That's what I heard.

00:58:05.100 Only a matter of time.

00:58:06.680 So, so Gio, I want to make sure, cause you were, you were talking about The Walking Dead. I want

00:58:11.620 you to get a chance so that we don't, we don't run you off before you get your, your examples here.

00:58:15.460 So Walking Dead is another one of those shows. I think I watch four or five. I mean, it's got to

00:58:21.360 be a trillion seasons now, right?

00:58:22.920 I think the show has some of the worst writing I've ever seen.

00:58:27.160 So I read most of the comic books. I read, you know, a hundred, a hundred, some issues of the

00:58:32.540 comic books, but I only made it to like season four or five of the show. But what's, what's your

00:58:38.540 transition on this one? How did it go from somewhat base to woke?

00:58:43.120 Okay. I think that this is a longer point. I think that a lot of these shows, like the essence of them

00:58:49.080 is that they still have to get like, they have to have a get for like largely like male

00:58:56.060 kind of like still mostly white nerdy audiences, especially like comic book series type of stuff

00:59:02.840 or like any sort of action orientated franchise. And so with The Walking Dead, like my video on it,

00:59:11.020 I essentially said that it was like the white savior sun setting, like riding off into the 0.88

00:59:17.760 sunset, literally. And it's like, now it's the multi-racial, multi-sexual coalition of the willing

00:59:25.000 that are to take up the place of Rick Grimes, who is like the white savior who sacrificed his own

00:59:30.840 lineage, his own livelihood, his own standing to give it off to this cast, like this motley crew

00:59:37.680 of, you know, no, no relationship is single race or single sex. Like there's always like, 0.97

00:59:45.660 like, like, you know, lesbians in the apocalypse. I'm pretty sure that, you know, fertility age women, 1.00

00:59:50.540 when most of the world's population is decimated, I'm pretty sure that there's just lesbians 1.00

00:59:54.420 everywhere. Right. So, but also with The Walking Dead, it gives you the aesthetic of it being like a 0.67

01:00:02.320 a masculine show. Right. But then as time goes on, you have like the main characters are all like 0.85

01:00:09.940 girl bosses, apart from like Daryl, who's like still again, another white savior that gives himself 0.69

01:00:16.580 to the girl bosses to do their work, to, to lead society. And then at the very end where, you know, 0.66

01:00:22.480 that spoiler alert, when you have the, the last like bureaucratic apparatus, what are they called?

01:00:27.820 The Commonwealth. You have like a female villain, but of course, like, it's not even about like

01:00:35.100 saving the people that are there. It's just the group of the original survivors that are there.

01:00:40.480 Like it's the Alexandria group. There's this one scene where, um, where, uh, they're walking and

01:00:46.580 the guy who's like the henchman for, um, the woman that runs the Commonwealth. He's like, well,

01:00:52.260 you guys have an opportunity to save everyone. Are you going to do after this? And, and, uh,

01:00:56.060 Carol is like, there is no after this. You don't realize that we're number one. And it's like,

01:01:01.300 you guys, who cares? Cause what happens with walking dead is the formula is they find a new

01:01:06.380 villain, they find a new group. And then, you know, thousands of people die, millions of us die

01:01:11.940 and like, they move on. Right. And it's like all their pretensions to saving people or to arrive at a

01:01:18.640 normal life are gone. But along the way, the villains progressively get more ridiculous, 0.88

01:01:24.840 but they get less nuanced. They, and so for example, the governor, my argument, the video 0.91

01:01:31.320 was essentially that the group from Alexandria, that they're the wrong ones and all their villains,

01:01:36.680 they were the real ones that knew that in this environment, in this world, you have to do what

01:01:42.240 needs to be done. It's very Nietzschean in a sense, like Negan, who would win in that war?

01:01:46.640 Negan or Rick Grimes? Negan would win because he has the will to power. Right. But Negan's evil.

01:01:53.140 He has a harem. He's sexist. He's, you know, he's like all of the patriarchy wrapped up in one, 1.00

01:01:59.400 but then Negan, his humiliation ritual is he's captured by the group and they lured it over his

01:02:05.840 head for eternity. Like, uh, what's her name? Um, he killed Glenn, the husband, what's her name? Um,

01:02:12.620 Oh, the, his, his wife, uh, the romantic entrance. Uh, I can't remember all, it's been a while.

01:02:19.120 She becomes a girl boss too. She, she becomes a leader. So it's basically Negan is me a coping

01:02:25.760 for, I believe nine years into the apocalypse. That's how long it takes. Like they jumped to the

01:02:31.220 future, like in, and I believe season 12 or 13. And so it's like, Negan is the evil patriarchy

01:02:39.300 that has been brought to heel by the girl boss, multicultural, multi-sexual world order. 1.00

01:02:45.540 Maggie. Thank you very much, Charles Maggie. And so Maggie like lords it over his head for like

01:02:51.220 multiple seasons. It's hilarious. And of course, Rick Grimes is still in the background,

01:02:56.600 but even the presence of Rick Grimes becomes spiritualized. He is an ideal later on. And of

01:03:03.040 course, I think of the movie that they're making, he comes back. Right. But, um, no,

01:03:07.540 they're making a movie and they're making three other spinoff seasons series, including the two

01:03:16.120 spinoffs. And by the way, they have, my mother watches all this crap. I only watched the original 0.99

01:03:20.540 one and maybe a little bit of the, the other walking dead one. Um, and so they have the zoomer

01:03:26.100 version called the, I think it's called the walking dead, um, beyond the beyond something.

01:03:33.520 It's like a zoomer version of it. And that's even worse that like, there's no white savior 0.98

01:03:38.700 there. There's just like, like, like zoomer transmogrified, you know, they're sexually 0.99

01:03:46.280 ambiguous. Soy, you like, you know, all the adjectives, right? All the adjectives. A lot

01:03:51.160 of cat girls. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cat girls. Um, but they're like zoomer cat girls. Of 0.97

01:03:56.280 course. Yeah. Yeah. So they, they have a unique sort of like ambiguity in terms of racial and

01:04:02.880 sexual character, put it lightly. Right. So the walking dead, it has the aesthetics of 0.58

01:04:08.640 an old Western in terms of it confront man, confronting the wilderness and man sort of

01:04:15.040 arriving at a post-apocalyptic future. But that vision of the post-apocalypse is then subverted

01:04:22.640 to the service of the present. It's very much like what Nick Land said in Xeno systems with

01:04:28.300 all of the stuff we're talking about today, where he said that current liberalism is the

01:04:33.540 enslaving and erasure of both the past and the future in service of the present. Whereas

01:04:39.720 traditionalism is the, you know, present and future in service of the past. And of course,

01:04:45.540 futurism is like everything is towards the future. But what we have is like the worst of both worlds.

01:04:50.260 We're in media and everywhere. It's like the present enslaves and erases everything.

01:04:56.060 Like the walking dead is a post-apocalyptic vision of the present into a post-apocalyptic

01:05:02.860 future that that present would maintain that we're going to have lesbians and trans people. 1.00

01:05:09.940 Well, no, the last, didn't the last of us have a trans woman?

01:05:13.820 Oh, I could go on about the last of us for a few minutes.

01:05:16.360 You know, but you know, what's funny, the memes though, were great. Like the choking meme,

01:05:20.360 like that was like, there was this one where it was, um, it was Chris Chan being choked by

01:05:25.500 Sonichu and Chris Chan's like, I created you. I don't know why I find that funny. It's terrible.

01:05:31.160 The thing that puzzled me about the last of us, I again, I, again, like watched like the first

01:05:37.740 episode and was like, I'll just go until that pisses me off too much. But they, they did not,

01:05:44.360 this is, this is something that has left me scratching my head. Maybe you guys can help me

01:05:47.700 think through this, but so they did not wind up. I mean, did you guys played the video game?

01:05:53.000 You kind of know the basic premise. I'm familiar with the video game. I haven't seen the show yet.

01:05:55.980 Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, the main characters are Joel, who's this, this older guy who loses

01:06:01.120 a daughter in the apocalypse. And then he winds up, um, being the guardian and the steward and the

01:06:08.140 shepherd of this replacement daughter, other little girl who's his quasi daughter named Ellie.

01:06:12.440 And they, they don't turn Ellie black, but they turn his daughter black. And the daughter, 0.85

01:06:20.360 the daughter is basically only there like for the first 30 minutes, you know, you kind of like,

01:06:26.120 she's sort of like the prologue of the story. And I was like, why didn't they, I mean, if they had just

01:06:32.720 turned Ellie into, if they had just turned Ellie black, then it would have gotten like way more screen

01:06:40.360 time for a, a POC, it would have probably like angered the fan base of the, um, the video game

01:06:49.360 more. And I think it's strange to notice that like something about how, I feel like there's,

01:06:57.040 there's more, there's something more, there's more cachet in, in showing mixed race children,

01:07:05.320 or even just alluding to mixed race couples than there is to having a sort of higher, higher count

01:07:15.100 of, of, um, actors of color, you know, it's just, well, that's like the walking dead where you have

01:07:21.800 Rosita who is Latina, who goes with an, like an Indian doctor, right? Like, I mean, subcontinental 0.95

01:07:28.760 Indian, right? And who is, but then he gets killed and is raised by a black pastor as like a replacement 1.00

01:07:35.860 father. So like that you have like, so, so I can actually answer your question last things, like

01:07:41.620 why they didn't do this. So, so the first thing is like, I just would like to note is that means that

01:07:46.500 they, they killed the, uh, the black character immediately in the horror, uh, show. That's true. 1.00

01:07:52.640 Yeah. Which is the trope in and of itself, right? Yeah. So, but, but like the actual answer to your

01:07:57.360 question is that later on in the second video game, uh, which I haven't played, but I think I saw,

01:08:03.000 if I remember correctly and someone correct me if I'm wrong, it's possible. I've heard that it's a,

01:08:06.600 it's a nightmare of subversion. So, so she, uh, the Ellie, the, the, I believe is the name of the,

01:08:12.640 of the, of the surrogate, uh, uh, daughter. She ends up, um, having a romantic relationship with

01:08:20.700 a black female. She becomes a lesbian in an interracial relationship. And you can't do that 1.00

01:08:25.500 if you've already gender swapped, you can't get the interracial, you'd, you'd have to like 0.97

01:08:29.820 gender, gender swap the eventual, uh, interracial lesbian relationship again, if you, if you did it 1.00

01:08:38.280 later. Right. Right. So I think that's actually why they left her, uh, as, as a white girl. So

01:08:43.800 eventually she could enter into her, enter the proper interracial, uh, yeah, but lesbians have 1.00

01:08:49.600 to go with trans women now. I mean, that's, that's what I've heard. Otherwise, otherwise 0.99

01:08:55.540 they're, they're transphobic. Right. They'll end up getting destroyed. The recent video game with

01:09:02.620 Harry Potter is transphobic. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But, but I wanted, I wanted to hit one more thing

01:09:09.640 cause we're, we're getting near the end here. Um, but, uh, I wanted to touch quickly on shows that

01:09:16.100 start with subversion and they go to wokeness just because that's the only place to go once you've

01:09:21.800 burned through all your materials. So the thing that made me think about this, and there's, there's

01:09:25.740 plenty of shows like this now, but, uh, last things just did a video on, uh, the magicians. And of course

01:09:31.740 the magicians starts as a subversion, right? It starts as a subversion of like the Chronicles

01:09:37.280 of Narnia and Harry Potter from the very beginning. And so like they, the first season or two,

01:09:42.880 like it's, it's, it's woke from the beginning, but it's got some interesting, like, because

01:09:46.960 they're just, they're, they're subverting all this stuff. But after like a season or two,

01:09:51.060 there's just nothing left to subvert. They burnt through like all the stuff that they want

01:09:55.520 to like completely, you know, turn inside out. And so the only thing left to do is then

01:09:59.660 just like triple down and just make the wokest possible thing where like, everyone is in

01:10:05.120 a thruple or some kind of, you know, polycule and they're all, they're all marrying, you know, 0.97

01:10:11.080 there's interracial marriages and, and, and everybody's got the different sexes. Like 0.96

01:10:15.900 everything is, you know, there's just nothing else to do. So they start like singing musicals

01:10:21.280 and stuff in the show that used to like, have like completely brutal and dark scenes. Like

01:10:26.160 they, they all just break it and break into one big LGBTQ musical in the middle of Narnia. 0.72

01:10:31.940 Like, so like, that's all there's left to do because they spent the first two seasons just

01:10:36.120 burning down and like, you know, like lynching any meaning inside these properties. Right.

01:10:42.580 And so like, that's what there's only thing to do. And I've noticed this.

01:10:44.820 Woke omega point.

01:10:46.900 Like, like, so, so I think that like, that this is also a thing we see where, where, you know,

01:10:52.640 shows that they're already woke in some sense, but like, they're completely just subverting

01:10:56.940 everything because that's all they have left to do is to just tear down all these cultural 1.00

01:11:01.140 icons. Like they've got nothing left at the, in the last couple of seasons. So they just go woke

01:11:05.680 because at least at the end, you can like run out the clock by parroting out like woke talking

01:11:10.020 points. And that'll pad you out for a season two while all the fans argue about like, you know,

01:11:14.340 the subversion and everything.

01:11:15.320 I'll be honest, Orin. And this is something my, my wife always gets really paranoid and angry if I 0.96

01:11:22.800 don't watch something I'm going to comment on through to the end. But I, I just, all I could

01:11:28.280 swallow was season one of the magicians.

01:11:30.600 Oh, buddy, you have so much more.

01:11:32.700 I could not go on. I couldn't go on another inch.

01:11:35.960 Oh, you could, you could have written like three more videos. Trust me. Like, like, like it gets,

01:11:41.380 it gets bad. It gets real bad. Like, and it's, um, it's, uh, I, I, I didn't watch it to the end

01:11:47.540 to be fair. Like I, I, I had to stop eventually, but yeah, no, you've got to, it might be worth

01:11:52.700 pushing through for another scene. You might get material at like, like just woke acceleration.

01:11:57.740 Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No, but that's what I mean. I feel like that's like the quintessential

01:12:02.320 example of like Bojard's like after the orgy type of scenario where we burn through everything.

01:12:08.300 There's no subversion left, you know, like we've literally subverted everything to the

01:12:12.740 point of exhaustion where we have to like make up more subversion, which I feel like I hate

01:12:17.800 to say it, but unfortunately I feel like conservative media is responsible for this as well, where

01:12:23.580 the, the discourse around like the quote unquote woke show is like talked about like as a memefied

01:12:31.520 form to exhaustion. And I feel like it is true that a lot of these writers, they know that

01:12:36.640 if they gender swap or race swap or sexuality swap, you know, characters that it'll create

01:12:44.460 a news cycle and that the usual like conservative, like Fox news response would be like, this is

01:12:51.420 bad. Like it's almost reminds me like Bill O'Reilly, like they should bring him back at,

01:12:55.000 well, I know, I know he had some funny business in Fox news. They can't bring him back, but you

01:12:59.140 know, he's too old too. He's too old. But you don't remember like, I remember watching

01:13:02.920 the O'Reilly factor back in the day. And it's like, it's like, uh, you know, the war

01:13:08.300 on Christmas, freedom fries, like all that stuff was already there, but it was like, let's

01:13:14.340 talk about it. It's like, it was like same with the Gamergate, the ADSJW channels. It

01:13:20.160 was like a, it was like a, a weird cartography of the way that culture was going. And the only

01:13:26.940 thing you could do was point it out, laugh at it, move on and to the next absurdity that

01:13:33.460 would come down the pipe. And then when it comes to actual cultural creation, that cycle

01:13:38.560 would continue because of course the people in charge of cultural production now at the

01:13:42.860 most mainstream of levels, they themselves experienced this, like after the orgy type

01:13:47.900 of exhaustion of all culture. And it's sort of, it's really like profound at the level

01:13:53.300 that like, even in 2023 from like 2013 onwards, even before that, it's like the cultural discourse

01:14:00.120 has largely stayed the same when it comes to pointing out like, this is another woke character.

01:14:06.200 This is another subversive act. And they just keep throwing it out as like people refuse to

01:14:12.420 watch movies anymore that aren't like niche indie films or like, you know, even like the most

01:14:17.840 mainstream actors, they're resorting to doing series small box work. Like it's even as like

01:14:23.160 the culture industry, like just gets torn apart at its own hand. We still are caught up in this like

01:14:29.140 never ending hell world dialectic of like, this is a woke show. It's terrible. We all know it's

01:14:35.260 terrible. They still make shows that are terrible. I don't know why don't they lose money. Oh, it

01:14:40.320 doesn't matter. Like it's yeah. I tried to explain this to people. Like you are an essential part of

01:14:45.500 this cycle. Like the, the, you know, like when they come out with the rings of power or whatever,

01:14:52.120 like the, the Lord of the Rings subversion, they, they write this stuff. They write it woke. They

01:14:57.400 know it's woke and they know it's going to make people angry. They know the fans are going to get

01:15:01.060 nuts. These, these Kotaku articles are written before the show comes out. They are just sitting

01:15:06.660 there waiting for one guy to be like, can you believe they put black women in the rings of power? 1.00

01:15:12.760 So they can just hit send and publish and start cranking out the articles pointing out that

01:15:17.660 exactly. Yeah. This, they knew you were coming. They knew you were what your response is going

01:15:22.000 to be. The show was built with your outrage to the show in mind, specifically all the, all the

01:15:29.500 outlets that are there to launder your outrage, to sell the show to people already had these

01:15:35.420 articles written before you even touched it. You're right. It's an entire metacycle built on top of

01:15:39.860 all of this woke subversion into everything we're consuming. One of the, now that I'm talking to

01:15:44.660 you again, Oren, let me just say, I've used this example on the show with a prude a few times,

01:15:49.280 but, uh, one of the greatest things you ever tweeted once was, I believe this was near Christmas

01:15:54.480 where it was, um, and you can apply this to like the culture industry as well. I think you were

01:16:00.100 applying to Ann Coulter where she said, um, like, in other words, like it's about like conservatives,

01:16:06.440 not getting like the meta of these arrangements, right. In politics and culture where Ann Coulter

01:16:11.360 said it was about that certain event that happened in January, by the way, I'm not going

01:16:15.000 to say it for you too, but you know, right. A few years ago, uh, or a few year ago, a few years ago,

01:16:19.300 uh, Ann Coulter said on Twitter, she tweeted, you mean to tell me that the lesson that liberals

01:16:25.460 learned is that they have to just demonize their opposition. And then you quote tweeted her with,

01:16:30.540 yes, exactly. That's exactly the lesson that they learned. But culture, it's like the conservatives

01:16:38.280 that freak out about like this type of culture. I mean, we're doing it. I realize that we're

01:16:42.980 performatively doing it, but I hope like we're, we're achieving like a more nuanced perspective,

01:16:47.720 but at the end of the day, it's like the right wing or the conservatives that do like talk about

01:16:53.600 this stuff. They realize that in some ways it's part of a dialectical game that when they come out

01:17:00.080 with even more subversive stuff, then it's like, they're already still reacting. Like there's like,

01:17:06.320 like a lot of like Sean Hannity people on Fox news, they're like still talking about like gay marriage

01:17:12.180 and shows, but they moved on to trans people and shows. And then they'll move on to something.

01:17:16.460 Maybe they'll move on to cheese pizza one day. Maybe that will be like a medical drama where don't

01:17:20.920 you know, it's ethical to have a mixed age relationship. They'll come up with some ridiculous term 0.82

01:17:26.780 like that. But it's like, as you're fighting the older culture war, it's like they keep the, 0.63

01:17:32.860 the Cthulhu keeps swimming upwards. Like, you know what I mean? Like it's an old reactionary

01:17:37.760 point, but it's the truth. Absolutely. Yeah. Last thing's you there, bro. Yeah, I did. We've

01:17:44.220 been drowning him out. I wanted to give him a chance to jump back in. Apparently some of the

01:17:47.280 chat, uh, someone says I could find love in the chat. So I don't know why the bots are hitting

01:17:52.640 you tonight. Oh, or is it? I haven't. Yeah, I should check away. Anyway, sorry. Last thing's

01:17:57.360 good. Oh, I had a, I had a friend of mine text me and say, I like your woke Trojan horse 0.95

01:18:02.360 idea. Unless the show runner is tied to the mast, they will eventually follow the call of

01:18:06.940 Cthulhu. Um, yep. There you go. Yeah. You know, I mean, I, I do hope that, I mean, I think

01:18:14.720 that's why I, I wanted to try to focus on, and I think we have focused on some shows that at

01:18:22.460 least started out as a bit of a, a lighthouse or a glimmer in the dark. I think that I completely

01:18:28.840 agree with everything you're, you're both saying, and I feel bad kind of feeding, feeding

01:18:33.520 the outrage cycle. But, um, I think something that does get drowned out is when these shows

01:18:41.160 that actually look like they, at some points have half a chance of attaining some degree

01:18:49.020 of sincerity. Um, you know, the, the, the, you know, that, that I find these to be more

01:18:57.440 of a tragedy and more cause, a greater cause for despair than these shows that are just

01:19:03.280 sort of stillborn. Yeah. It's different than like when shows announce it, like apparently

01:19:08.620 they say that like, uh, Yellowstone is like, it's such a, like a boomer con type of show,

01:19:15.680 but they even say that that has like girl bossism and different, like, you know, there's a critique

01:19:22.600 of Yellowstone there. That's almost like the woke Trojan horse. Oh no, that's the only other

01:19:26.540 show other than the shield that people told me was based and that I should watch. You're

01:19:30.300 killing me Gio. It is based, but it's sort of like my heck and wholesome homesteader type

01:19:35.720 of base. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta take what you

01:19:41.140 can get, man. Like you can't be picky in the desolate wasteland. Like, yeah, I'm, I'm

01:19:46.720 absolutely dying of thirst, but this water, it's a little, you know, it's a little low

01:19:50.400 brow. It's a little, it's a little brown, you know, it's a little tainted, you know, 0.99

01:19:54.580 it's got a little dirt in it, but Gio, you know, can we go back to the walking dead maybe

01:20:00.600 for, for a minute? Sure. I appreciate what you had to say about that show. That's another

01:20:03.880 show where like, I, I watched two seasons of it and I find the, found the writing to be

01:20:08.660 so stale and off-putting and dry. Well, after the first season, they got rid of, uh,

01:20:13.980 oh God, he's such a, yeah, yeah, Darabont, like who's like such a like next level show

01:20:19.200 writer, like and, and movie writer, like the Shawshank Redemption, right? Like, but they

01:20:23.560 got rid of Darabont because he, I think like he even said, like he was just pissed off with

01:20:27.920 the rest of the staff. They didn't let him do what he wanted. And like, then they just

01:20:31.940 got these like litany of writers, but the, I guess my main critique of the walking dead

01:20:36.260 was that you can't have a show that by definition has to go on forever. Like you just keep like

01:20:42.340 next level boss leveling up sort of like, uh, it's like a fighting game, like Tekken or

01:20:47.300 something like that. It felt more like a bit, the progression, the dry progression of like

01:20:51.180 a Mario brothers, like, yeah. Like as soon as you get to a final boss. Yeah. Turns out Peach

01:20:57.120 was in the other castle. Got to go fight some more zombies. Yeah. But, but, but this is my

01:21:02.840 observation about it. And I mean, I think it, I forget when it first started, but I think

01:21:06.940 it, I, I, in my memory, I think you're 2011. Yeah. I would like predated the great awokening

01:21:12.060 a bit. And so I did not have, when I was watching it, I did not have my, my nightmare vision goggles

01:21:17.260 on, or at least maybe not, not the current prescription. But one thing that I found that

01:21:23.860 one of the uncanny elements of it was not necessarily explicit, overt, obvious, woke talking points,

01:21:31.920 although maybe it got there eventually, but you know, it was this, it was always out of,

01:21:36.440 out the gate, this very multicultural, multi-ethnic cast. Yeah. And yeah. And, and it was set,

01:21:44.360 it's set in Georgia and it had this like, you know, like 50, 50 black, white characters. And yet

01:21:51.760 everybody was written as this flat sort of, um, like at no point real, there's one character who's a bad

01:22:01.320 guy who dies early. Who's like, who is racist, but everybody else, like the characters were so

01:22:09.080 wooden. There was no, it's like race relations did not exist. I don't think anybody ever even

01:22:15.280 mentioned or brought up anybody's race and the pairings, the couplings they did would just make

01:22:21.760 no, I remember they had this one, like they, they interjected this one love story with this

01:22:27.020 one white character. Who's like the whitest guy. I wish I remember the name of the character. He's 0.99

01:22:32.700 like a redhead with like this big hulking red ginger dude with Abraham, Abraham. Yeah. The dude 0.73

01:22:40.140 looks like a civil war Colonel, like on the South, like he looked like he was a Confederate statue.

01:22:50.780 And they like threw him into like, and suddenly he's just in love with like the, this like young,

01:22:57.740 much more kind of like cosmopolitan black female character. And it's just like accepted. And I mean,

01:23:06.260 I think they did that a lot. Like the, the, the lack of chemistry overall between any characters

01:23:11.340 was just shocking. And I blame that at the level of the writing, but they did not in any way that,

01:23:17.120 that show in no way, shape or form attempted to write anything that could be recognized as

01:23:24.360 just race relations in a post-apocalyptic America. The most glaring aspect of it was that, that,

01:23:33.980 that, that absence, like I was like, is there going to be tension as things going to evolve along racial

01:23:39.640 lines? Like probably, you know, it's unfortunate, but human nature might happen in a, you know, zombie

01:23:44.760 apocalyptic scenario, but people, people get more racist in the apocalypse. I feel like that's just

01:23:51.360 the thing. But I mean, your point that it sort of erases the past, you had no sense of an American

01:23:58.220 cultural history attached to any of the characters. No, it's totally a historical. Yeah. It's like,

01:24:06.220 there is, they don't even like, I don't even think they even say like that there were,

01:24:11.580 they lived in America. Like they, you know, a good example would be like the road, right? Because

01:24:20.000 the road by Cormac McCarthy is very much a longing of the past. That was the walking dead just accepts

01:24:27.880 that they live in the, the post-apocalypse is actually post-historical that I know. That's like

01:24:35.420 galaxy YouTube millennial video essayist type of, you know, content. But there was some racial

01:24:43.760 relations. I'll tell you what, there was Daryl and his brother Merle. Merle was like the evil chud 1.00

01:24:49.440 redneck racist. And Daryl was, yeah. But the thing is, he's the only, but he's the only one that ever 0.99

01:24:54.960 recognized, you know, he used, well, that's why they immediately murdered him.

01:24:59.700 Yeah. No, but also Daryl learns to become anti-racist. Yes. And is also, he's redeemed.

01:25:08.740 Yeah. He's redeemed. And he's like, first he's with Carol, then he's with some death woman of color 1.00

01:25:16.320 a little bit. Because the thing is though, there was a little bit of that racial tension in the

01:25:20.460 beginning, but you have to realize that Daryl and Merle, their TV show inserts, they're not in the

01:25:25.940 comics. And my theory is that Robert Kirkman, who I believe also had control over the show,

01:25:32.420 at least in the beginning, who wrote the comics, he's of course, you know, a South hating Southern

01:25:36.940 Southerner. He's a Hicklib. Like that's like the essence of Hicklib. You know? So it's, it's sort of 0.82

01:25:44.100 like, well, Oren, where are you from the Mason Dixon line? What's your family? Oh, I'm down in

01:25:49.140 Florida here. I grew up in the Southeast. So. Okay, there you go. Yeah. So, you know, because,

01:25:54.140 but you know, the type, the Hicklib, right? You probably experienced it. Oh yeah, of course. 0.98

01:25:57.260 Absolutely. Yeah. No, there's a, there's a, there's a, I, I, I went to community college,

01:26:02.660 so I'm much better than everyone around me. Yeah. No, but exactly. Right. Like me and Grace and

01:26:09.880 Quay talk a little bit about this on the TL, about the nature of the Hicklib. Because in Canada,

01:26:13.880 we have the Hicklib park salons. We have shows like Letterkenny, you know, which is like basically

01:26:19.480 the Hicklib show, you know? So it's like, but because, but that's what's such a subversive

01:26:24.820 character is that, you know, you can take all of the Southern, like, or, or in Canadian case,

01:26:30.820 like rural tropes and just totally like put them across that, you know, put them on its head

01:26:37.600 where now it's my heck and wholesome, multi-racial, polycule farmstead. Like, didn't like, 0.99

01:26:45.020 wasn't there like a, a vice documentary about like a trans emu farm where the, all the emus.

01:26:52.380 Yeah. Yeah. They all eventually died though. The emus. Well, it's like, uh, it's like when, uh,

01:26:58.280 you're, uh, uh, you're, uh, what was the, where they tried to make the autonomous commune out in,

01:27:05.000 uh, during the summer of love. Yeah. The Chaz. Yeah. You know, they start planting things on top of 0.98

01:27:11.140 like plastic bags because no one knows anything about farming. So like create, but yeah, it turns

01:27:17.320 out communists have an excellent record of food production. So everything, everything should be 0.97

01:27:21.340 just fine. Um, yeah, they all read Hakeem Bay and they thought, yeah, we could do this. Um, yeah.

01:27:27.420 All right guys. Well, we're, we're getting over to that hour and a half. So we're going to go ahead

01:27:31.600 and wrap this one up. Oh, we've got a few, uh, super chats, but before we get to those, uh, how about,

01:27:39.240 uh, let's start with Gio. Can you tell everybody where to find you all your great work? What should

01:27:43.220 they look for? Sure. Um, go to my channel right there. Janet productions. Of course,

01:27:47.720 everyone knows me on Twitter is at giant Gio, my telegram and my patron are both the same.

01:27:53.260 Um, the content minded podcast just yesterday. Uh, I usually upload them on Wednesdays,

01:27:59.360 but yesterday I uploaded a special early edition with my friend, hopefully everyone's friend,

01:28:04.580 default friend. We talked about an internet writer called hum dog. It's very good podcast.

01:28:09.240 And you could find all the paywall content, the full versions of content minded on my, uh,

01:28:14.120 patron and now sub stack. So if you don't want to pay patron, then I understand that I I'm trying

01:28:19.080 to hit all the demographics. Cause I feel like I'm leaving money on the table with like boomers 1.00

01:28:24.040 and gen Xers by on sub stack. Um, so all my archive is there. And of course, every Thursday I do the

01:28:32.580 digital archipelago with, uh, with prudentialist. So we switch up. So last week was on my channel.

01:28:38.360 This week's on his channel. And we're going to talk about the new Charles Haywood essay that he's in

01:28:43.900 dialogue with, uh, a good friend of mine, uh, Daniel Miller. Uh, they talk about no enemies to

01:28:48.940 the right. And, um, of course we always cover like current happenings. Uh, and we mostly focus on

01:28:54.160 culture cause you know, prudy's a geopolitics guy. So, uh, yeah, that's, that's all my shilling.

01:28:59.480 So, you know, give me money or a manual typewriter to quote fantasy deck. Yeah. I don't like, I have

01:29:06.920 a lot of exciting guests on the way this week. I'm super busy. It's what I call the, uh, special

01:29:11.660 content operation week. Number two, uh, tomorrow I'm both there and on man's world with red hawk

01:29:17.860 and furious prudence. We're talking about mid girls and e-girls. So there you can simply, 0.97

01:29:23.100 so you can't miss that one, man, a geo spectacular to be sure. All right. Yeah. So, uh, last things,

01:29:29.580 what do you got? Where should people check out your work? Oh, wow, man. I don't know if I can

01:29:33.100 follow up all of that. Um, um, uh, last things for on, on Twitter, I had to get rid of the other

01:29:40.100 three, uh, last things that preceded me. Um, you can just kind of Google last things on YouTube to find

01:29:46.840 my, my channel. Um, I've got a pretty good, um, uh, backlog of content there, including some live

01:29:54.660 streams with, uh, with both of these gentlemen or, and I think you're in a couple, uh, and, uh, next

01:30:01.400 week I'm going to be, uh, interviewing raw egg nationalist having him on Wednesday night 0.80

01:30:07.460 from, from Tucker to last things. I know, you know, you got to like the pipeline. Now he's,

01:30:12.660 now he's in the big time. Yeah. It was great. He gave me a copy of his book. And, uh, are you

01:30:19.660 talking about the book, uh, eggs Benedict option? Definitely. We'll touch on eggs Benedict. I just

01:30:24.740 got both. I just got both man's world annuals in the mail today. Oh yeah. I'm also in the new man's

01:30:30.460 world. That's right. I have a visual essay about the, that certain era of the previous two years to

01:30:36.380 not say on YouTube, but my, uh, my wife, I left it unfortunately out on like the table and my wife 0.94

01:30:42.100 found out and she was like, what the hell is this? What is this? But I was, I was cracking

01:30:48.400 up reading it the whole day. So she knew someone was up. How can people pay you last things? How

01:30:52.500 can they give you man? You know, I I'm too, I'm too, I've been too lazy to like get a, get

01:30:57.020 a Patreon going. I have like a, I gotta get my grift game, bro. Come on. I gotta get my grift

01:31:01.620 game. I need like, I need to a week of vacation where I can just settle down and really like get

01:31:06.700 my, get my grift going. You're leaving money on the table. You're leaving money. I would feel

01:31:12.480 obligated to like make, make paywall content for, for like, you know, I was going to say,

01:31:18.400 then you'd have to make regular content, which would be the, the, the worst thing. Yeah. That's

01:31:22.220 the problem. Yeah. Well, no, you last thing does, it does amazing work, but there could be large

01:31:27.780 lapses in between them. So you're waiting for that, uh, for the next series, you know? So, uh,

01:31:33.760 yeah, he's the man has to have time to work. You got to let the art artists do his thing,

01:31:37.680 right? Exactly. But as, as Oren mentioned, I just finished a part, a second, uh, video on the

01:31:43.000 magicians. Uh, my, my, my videos tend to sort of pick some sort of movie or TV or media as a vessel

01:31:51.760 for, uh, exploring ideas or philosophers. Um, in the case of the magicians, um, I use them to talk

01:31:58.580 about CS Lewis and, um, right, right wing versus left wing sci-fi and fantasy fiction. Um, I'll

01:32:05.740 have another video out next week on the Sandman, um, which, uh, we kind of dove into here a little

01:32:11.100 bit, so that can be a bit of a teaser, but, but yeah, that's my, that's my plug. Someday I'll

01:32:16.500 have a subscribe star. Excellent. It's my dream to go to one day, get kicked off of a Patreon.

01:32:21.700 Yeah. Yeah. That's my, that's on my bucket list. Yeah. Maybe I should have went with a subscribe

01:32:29.440 stare, but, but, you know, yeah, that's where I, that's where I did that. All right. All right,

01:32:33.480 guys. Well, thank you for joining me, gentlemen. Oh, we do have a super chat here. Let me get to

01:32:38.580 that real quick. A creeper weirdo here for $2, but it's better than the comic book. Um, but it's

01:32:45.720 better than the comic. Oh, is that a particular reference to walking dead or the boys?

01:32:51.700 I think it was the boys. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was a boys reference, but, uh,

01:32:58.100 but thank you very much, sir. Appreciate, uh, your, uh, your comment there. Uh, thanks everybody

01:33:03.340 for coming by. It's been a great discussion. Of course, if this is your first time on the channel,

01:33:08.740 I hope you go ahead and subscribe. And of course, if you are not listening to this as a podcast,

01:33:14.260 you can now get it on a podcast, wherever your finest podcasts are procured. It's on all the major

01:33:19.720 platforms. If you do that, please make sure that you go ahead and give it a rating and a review.

01:33:25.400 You want to subscribe to the sub stack, the Twitter, the gab. If you want to watch this stuff

01:33:29.520 on, uh, on odyssey or rumble, of course, all those links are in the description. Also, I just had a,

01:33:35.880 uh, essay go up on, uh, the blaze that seemed to get a lot of good attention. So if you guys want to

01:33:41.960 check that one out, it's about culture neutrality or the myth thereof. You can make sure to go ahead and

01:33:47.520 read that as well, but thank you everybody for coming by. Thanks again to geo and last things

01:33:52.720 always great talking to these gentlemen. And as always, we'll talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - January 26, 2023

The Woke Trojan Horse ｜ Guests： Last Things and Gio Pennacchietti ｜ 1⧸24⧸23

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript