The Auron MacIntyre Show - Universities Defy Supreme Court on Affirmative Action ｜ Guest： Will Chamberlain

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.420 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.200 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.580 It's a constitutional crisis.

00:00:39.500 Constitutional crisis everywhere.

00:00:41.460 People are defying judges.

00:00:42.940 President Trump is going to go out there.

00:00:44.620 He's going to do whatever he wants.

00:00:46.000 He's going to run over the Constitution.

00:00:47.840 We all care very deeply about that, right?

00:00:50.880 Unless it's universities ignoring the Constitution and banning people

00:00:55.040 or putting their thumb on the scales when it comes to admissions,

00:00:58.880 which was directly banned by the Supreme Court.

00:01:02.300 And yet here we are discovering that NYU may have been involved in this.

00:01:07.980 New data that was leaked by a hacker seems to confirm the fact that they have continued

00:01:12.900 these practices in defiance of this court order.

00:01:16.340 Joining me to talk about this constitutional crisis is Will Chamberlain.

00:01:21.140 He's an attorney, the lead counsel over at the Article 3 Project.

00:01:24.940 Thanks for coming on, man.

00:01:26.480 Good to be with you.

00:01:27.200 Senior counsel.

00:01:27.960 I don't run the organization.

00:01:29.480 That would be Mike Davis, of course.

00:01:31.580 Very good.

00:01:32.240 All right.

00:01:32.500 Well, we will dive into the breakdown of what happened with NYU.

00:01:37.640 Does this violate the current Supreme Court ruling?

00:01:40.420 How does this stack up with the other accusations of judicial overreach or executive overreach?

00:01:46.120 We'll get to all that in just a second.

00:01:47.520 But before we do, guys, let's hear from today's sponsor.

00:01:50.760 Hey, everybody.

00:01:51.400 This episode of The Oren McIntyre Show is proudly sponsored by Consumers Research.

00:01:56.680 You've heard about Larry Fink and BlackRock and ESG and all the ways that they're ruining your life.

00:02:02.740 Making grocery stores more expensive.

00:02:04.920 Making video games more woke.

00:02:07.240 Well, Consumers Research has spent the last five years making Larry's life hell, and they're just getting started.

00:02:14.180 Their work and its consequences have been profiled in The Washington Post, The New York Times,

00:02:19.300 and most recently, Fox Business reporter Charlie Gasparono wrote a whole chapter in his book,

00:02:25.260 Go Woke, Go Broke, on how effective they've been at dismantling BlackRock's ESG patronage scheme.

00:02:31.880 He's making Larry Fink lose that last bit of hair on his balding head, and you should follow Will's work on X so you can laugh along with him.

00:02:40.200 His handle is at W-I-L-L-H-I-L-D.

00:02:44.980 So give him a follow.

00:02:46.020 Again, that's at W-I-L-L-H-I-L-D on X.

00:02:51.980 All right, Will.

00:02:54.660 So it came out here recently.

00:02:57.160 A hacker got, I guess, access, allegedly, to NYU's admissions information,

00:03:04.100 and it seemed from what they released on the university's website, which they also managed to hack,

00:03:10.960 that there is a very large disparity in the types of GPAs and SAT scores that are being allowed for admissions to the school.

00:03:20.420 You had Asians clocking in at an average of about 1485 on their SAT scores.

00:03:26.200 If they were admitted, you saw whites coming in around 1420, Hispanics lower at 1350, and Black students all the way down at 1289.

00:03:37.840 Again, individual students are going to have wildly different scores,

00:03:41.180 but over a set amount of time, you see this disparity is being selected on a regular basis,

00:03:47.860 and this was supposed to be happening in 2024, after the Supreme Court has already ruled against the ability of universities

00:03:55.780 to use preferential racial treatment when it comes to deciding who will get into the university.

00:04:02.400 What do you think about this data?

00:04:03.560 Are you surprised that universities are continuing to do this in the face of the Supreme Court?

00:04:08.080 And if this data is correct, do you feel like it violates the current ruling?

00:04:13.320 Yeah, so, I mean, let's start.

00:04:15.100 I'm not surprised.

00:04:17.440 Universities have not turned over their entire staff, have not turned over their admissions departments,

00:04:22.460 and so, you know, we've got 50 years of race-conscious admissions practices

00:04:27.740 that have been unconstitutional the whole time, but only finally or, you know,

00:04:31.920 formally found to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

00:04:34.300 And I'm not surprised that they have not wanted to change.

00:04:38.100 I mean, you've heard about all the ways they've been trying to fight this.

00:04:40.660 You know, for example, when, I mean, I saw some universities just deciding,

00:04:45.300 well, you know, if you're not going to allow us to be race-conscious,

00:04:48.240 then we're just going to scrap SAT scores entirely and go to admissions based on whatever we feel like,

00:04:54.300 you know, whatever metric we think will get us the racial balance we'd like to achieve.

00:04:58.240 So I'm not surprised that they're doing it.

00:04:59.760 I think it's very clearly unlawful, and so, you know, you have to wonder why.

00:05:04.080 I think, I mean, part of it's obliviousness, and part of it, I think they think they can just get away with it.

00:05:08.480 You know, I read a Brookings, in preparation for this, I read a Brookings Institute primer

00:05:12.580 on using the Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights to go after these universities,

00:05:20.160 and it was basically like a liberal author suggesting why this probably wouldn't happen.

00:05:24.040 And, you know, one of the reasons is she said, well, their Office of Civil Rights is underfunded,

00:05:29.780 it actually was made underfunded by conservative administrations,

00:05:32.300 and so it's unlikely that you'll actually be pursued for your race-conscious admissions policies.

00:05:37.140 And, I mean, the effect of this is the liberal Brookings Institution

00:05:39.980 trying to encourage people to continue to be lawless in these actions.

00:05:46.540 And, I mean, there is something to be said for that.

00:05:48.360 There's also, you know, President Trump has just put out an executive order, you know,

00:05:51.940 effectively abolishing the Department of Education to the extent that he can.

00:05:56.860 So, that'll be interesting to see whether that has impacts on the ability of the administration

00:06:01.000 to actually go out and pursue these cases.

00:06:03.580 You know, I wonder if maybe that executive order should be pared back slightly

00:06:07.120 to just allow this particular very useful function to go forward.

00:06:12.240 But, yeah, so I'm not surprised.

00:06:13.780 I think it's lawless.

00:06:14.620 I think that there's certainly the Department of Education, if it continues operating, can bring suits.

00:06:19.160 And I also think that, you know, private plaintiffs who are the victims of this discrimination

00:06:23.600 can also bring suits.

00:06:25.860 I gotta say, I'm also not surprised at all.

00:06:29.580 Many universities announced their intention to basically do this the minute that the ruling dropped.

00:06:35.060 So, they're just living, you know, doing exactly what they said they were going to do.

00:06:41.260 And the fact that liberal institutions feel like, ultimately, they're just going to get away with it.

00:06:46.460 It's not that big a deal.

00:06:47.720 Conservatives can't be bothered to fund any of this stuff.

00:06:50.440 They're not really going to go after us.

00:06:52.280 It's not a great sign.

00:06:54.100 I mean, hopefully that means that they're just so complacent that they're not prepared for any kind of legal challenge.

00:07:00.800 They're not really prepared to stand up to the rigor if this is put to the task.

00:07:05.940 But, ultimately, they are kind of right, unfortunately, that I think a lot of conservatives don't get worked about this stuff,

00:07:13.160 that they don't follow through, that they don't actually enact a penalty.

00:07:16.820 And that's something that's very hard, I think, for a lot of conservatives to understand

00:07:20.280 because they have this kind of scared nature when it comes to the idea of penalties for political losses.

00:07:26.660 You're never allowed to extract a price from your political opponents.

00:07:30.460 There's never a cost for them losing.

00:07:32.500 Whenever you're in power, it's your job to be very – make the peace, be kind, set an example,

00:07:40.480 never actually have anything follow up and penalize them for ending up doing what they're doing here.

00:07:48.280 Do you see – I mean, personally, I would think there would be a massive amount of possible class action lawsuits

00:07:53.800 for all the students that had their entire futures, their entire earnings potential ruined

00:07:58.260 by a violation of a Supreme Court order that seems like pretty fertile ground for lawsuit territory.

00:08:04.860 Do you think that there is just a lack of interest by law firms or there's a hesitance?

00:08:10.600 Is there some kind of worry that someone would lose their connections or get thrown out of the bar or something

00:08:16.900 for filing this kind of lawsuit?

00:08:18.320 What's ultimately holding it back?

00:08:19.600 I mean, I think – I think you're being a little too pessimistic in the sense that I actually think

00:08:25.160 some of this stuff is starting, right?

00:08:26.680 I've seen some – there was a complaint filed – let's see if I have it right here – by students –

00:08:31.500 an organization called Students Against Racial Discrimination.

00:08:34.140 They have filed a lawsuit along these lines against the University of California,

00:08:38.200 basically accusing the entire UC system of widespread racial discrimination against white and Asian applicants,

00:08:43.720 you know, suppressing their admissions rates and elevating the admissions rates of other races.

00:08:48.400 So I think there's some – there are organizations that are going to go ahead and push on this.

00:08:52.760 Just, you know, there's a reason we got that case a few years ago on the affirmative action,

00:08:56.560 the 2023 case against Harvard.

00:08:57.860 I think we're going to get more of this, and I think it's going to work.

00:09:01.940 There's also one other thing that I didn't mention that I think is a really salutary thing that,

00:09:06.700 you know, a reason to be optimistic.

00:09:08.200 So it's more in the context of what's being done to Columbia.

00:09:12.120 But they pulled out a weapon that I didn't really think about,

00:09:14.840 but that is just remarkably powerful,

00:09:16.640 which is they threatened to cut off all the grants to Columbia University

00:09:20.080 over the anti-Semitism issues, the encampments.

00:09:25.420 Threatening to cut off grants is a remarkable way to get a faculty in line extremely quickly

00:09:30.060 because it threatens the core of what the university is trying to do and what it's selling.

00:09:34.940 If you can't get a grant at one university because they have issues with the administration,

00:09:40.780 but you can get it at another university, if you're a star professor, you leave.

00:09:46.540 And what happens to a university that loses every one of its star professors

00:09:50.580 because literally all their research funding goes to zero from the federal government?

00:09:56.060 Very, very bad things.

00:09:57.780 But, I mean, and it's a terrible long-term trend.

00:10:00.180 It actually kind of reminds me of what was happening to some of these big law firms

00:10:03.040 that got targeted with these executive orders by the government, too,

00:10:05.820 where, you know, all of a sudden, Paul Weiss folded immediately

00:10:10.320 because they realized if we don't get right with the administration,

00:10:13.680 all of our big lawyers and all of our big clients are going to flee.

00:10:17.620 So I think the cutting off grants is this remarkable weapon.

00:10:20.920 So I think, I know we're at the beginning of a new administration

00:10:24.960 that is just sort of waking up to its power in this regard,

00:10:28.720 but I'm optimistic because they've started to use it.

00:10:31.460 Yeah, I agree that ultimately that is a tool that should be wielded.

00:10:35.740 I think for a lot of people, you know, the kind of concern is that, you know,

00:10:39.900 we've had these type of attitudes in universities for decades,

00:10:45.080 and yet we only finally got this over the issue of anti-Semitism

00:10:50.240 and encampments and these kind of things.

00:10:52.420 You hope that they would expand that to, you know, these, you know,

00:10:55.740 I have no truck with these organizations.

00:10:57.860 I'm glad that they're taking a hit, you know, no matter what,

00:11:00.980 but you would hope that it's not only that issue,

00:11:03.420 but the wider behavior of universities that will inspire more of this

00:11:07.720 by the administration.

00:11:08.660 Like you said, they're just getting started, so it's understandable

00:11:11.100 they have to start somewhere, but I think a lot of people are hoping

00:11:14.200 that that isn't the only issue that animates them towards action in this area.

00:11:18.180 I agree, and I don't think it will be.

00:11:20.060 So, I mean, I guess I'll make two brief points on this.

00:11:22.460 First off, the anti-Semitism stuff is just the easiest one

00:11:26.220 because these universities let themselves get wildly out of pocket

00:11:29.640 beyond the question of, like, who they admit and who they don't.

00:11:32.920 I mean, you think about what was happening on, like, UCLA's campus,

00:11:35.520 for instance, where they were just letting students block off sections

00:11:39.160 of the university based on students of a certain religion.

00:11:42.120 So it's just, you know, in terms of the ease of the litigation,

00:11:45.280 I'm not surprised they started there.

00:11:46.960 But the second reason is, I mean, the Department of Education

00:11:50.360 sent out a Dear Colleague letter on the question of all forms

00:11:54.020 of this discrimination in admissions in particular

00:11:56.300 and highlighted white and Asian discrimination as unlawful.

00:12:01.200 And, you know, these Dear Colleague letters,

00:12:02.480 they're sort of the prelude to all the investigations.

00:12:05.180 So first they sent out a Dear Colleague letter,

00:12:06.920 then they sent out a notification that something like 45 universities

00:12:10.280 were under investigation for straightforward racial discrimination

00:12:13.340 in admissions, including many ones that you'll be talking about.

00:12:17.200 And this is, these are from programs that are essentially,

00:12:19.540 you know, prioritizing admitting black students

00:12:21.520 over white students, straight, straightforward.

00:12:24.040 So this stuff takes time.

00:12:27.900 I think we're seeing, I think the stuff on anti-Semitism

00:12:30.700 is also catching more of a flag because it's the stuff

00:12:33.180 that they threatened the grants over.

00:12:35.540 And it's also the stuff that you've had all these, like, removals,

00:12:39.020 the ability to actually yank people out of the country.

00:12:41.700 And that, I think that's also an artifact of current law

00:12:45.580 where it's like, you know, there are a lot of obnoxious ways

00:12:48.080 to protest on the left, but one of them in particular,

00:12:50.920 supporting a designated terrorist organization

00:12:52.780 is not only grounds to get deported,

00:12:55.560 but a lot of non-citizens are doing it.

00:12:57.160 So you have this sort of unique, specific area

00:13:00.100 where you're getting a lot of activity

00:13:02.180 because it's so easily a way to get rid of really noxious people.

00:13:06.780 I think a lot of people who look at the conservative movement,

00:13:11.160 see a movement that is generally skeptical

00:13:14.780 about the value of higher education.

00:13:18.540 And, you know, I think both of us have been pretty vocal

00:13:21.440 about the, you know, just the cancer

00:13:23.600 that is many of our universities and the people who run them

00:13:27.660 and our intention of seeing radical reform of them.

00:13:32.740 But ultimately, we recognize that there is going to be

00:13:36.500 some kind of leadership class in the United States.

00:13:39.880 We are going to manufacture elites somewhere.

00:13:43.780 And the college becoming the place where that happens

00:13:46.240 in the United States probably wasn't the best development,

00:13:49.000 but it is the system we have now.

00:13:51.560 So there's this moment in which I think a lot of conservatives

00:13:55.900 would like to extricate themselves from the college system.

00:13:58.780 They recognize the damage that it does to their children,

00:14:01.880 to their values.

00:14:02.800 They recognize that these are places that are against them,

00:14:05.820 that are ultimately trying to hurt them

00:14:07.220 and their culture and their way of life.

00:14:09.880 But simultaneously, if we stop sending

00:14:12.440 all the conservative children to college,

00:14:15.280 we won't get conservative adults who can do the jobs

00:14:18.560 that actually influence very important functions

00:14:21.520 inside the United States, both in the public and private sector.

00:14:25.240 And so I think there's a mixed feeling

00:14:27.520 in the sense that people recognize the importance of college,

00:14:31.180 but many conservatives are somewhat hesitant

00:14:34.060 to actually look to reform it

00:14:36.240 or make really important changes,

00:14:38.680 recognize its importance in general,

00:14:40.760 because they ultimately want to remove themselves from it.

00:14:44.800 They want to distance themselves from it

00:14:46.260 or they want to dismantle it.

00:14:47.920 And so we have this strange transitionary period

00:14:50.760 where I don't feel like we focus enough

00:14:53.700 on the importance of college

00:14:55.480 while actively we are kind of trying to reduce

00:14:58.420 the influence that these organizations have.

00:15:01.300 over our wider governance and culture.

00:15:05.000 Yeah, I mean, college is so ingrained into American life.

00:15:08.580 I mean, think about the fact that college athletics

00:15:10.360 is just this incredibly dominant thing

00:15:12.640 that people are fans of.

00:15:13.840 And I remember Charlie Kirk having to go out

00:15:15.920 and say something like,

00:15:16.900 please stop donating to your alma maters

00:15:18.560 because the same people who are donating to his organization,

00:15:21.400 funding conservative grassroots movements,

00:15:22.940 are also donating huge amounts of money

00:15:24.580 to their alma maters,

00:15:25.500 which are using that money to thwart

00:15:27.240 the political goals they're nominally trying to achieve.

00:15:29.760 So it is a tricky problem.

00:15:34.380 You're right that we do need a counter-elite.

00:15:36.220 You can't just not send your kids to college.

00:15:38.580 Like, we don't want a world in which

00:15:40.200 every conservative kid is not going to college.

00:15:43.680 And so we don't have sufficient numbers

00:15:44.940 of conservative lawyers

00:15:45.920 and potential conservative bureaucrats

00:15:47.500 to effectively run the country if we get in charge.

00:15:49.960 So we need our kids to go.

00:15:52.580 And I think that's part of what makes this so positive

00:15:55.740 is because what the Department of Education

00:15:57.660 and what the Trump administration is doing,

00:15:59.820 they're not saying we're going to get rid of colleges, period.

00:16:02.800 They're saying we are going to punish colleges

00:16:05.120 until they get right with us

00:16:06.480 in the same way that they're doing,

00:16:08.160 same thing that they're doing to these law firms.

00:16:09.700 We're going to punish you for coming,

00:16:11.680 disrespecting our honor as a party.

00:16:14.240 And I think that's the approach they have to take.

00:16:17.320 I mean, if we're not going to,

00:16:19.520 I mean, if we're stuck with the university system as it is,

00:16:21.640 and it's just hard to imagine a world

00:16:22.960 where we didn't have something resembling it,

00:16:25.280 then we just need to be willing

00:16:26.760 to throw our weight around as a party.

00:16:29.240 And I think that,

00:16:30.100 especially when they're in violation of current law,

00:16:32.500 I think the universities and a lot of these people,

00:16:34.300 they're really, there's an arrogance here.

00:16:36.460 They really think they're going to get away

00:16:37.900 with continuing to discriminate

00:16:39.100 on the basis of race against whites and Asians.

00:16:41.180 I don't think that's going to happen.

00:16:43.380 I think the forces are getting aligned

00:16:46.820 both within the government to push this through,

00:16:52.480 whatever remains of the Department of Education,

00:16:54.200 but also there are private organizations,

00:16:57.640 these nonprofits doing these lawsuits

00:16:59.520 that have been successful so far to this point.

00:17:01.460 I mean, we've gotten brand new precedent

00:17:02.660 from the Supreme Court.

00:17:03.580 I'm optimistic that things are going to get better.

00:17:06.460 Yeah, I think ultimately we recognize

00:17:09.360 that while it's great that there are many paths

00:17:13.260 towards success, making money,

00:17:15.680 being able to afford to have a family and a home

00:17:18.120 and everything else that don't go through college,

00:17:20.280 the trades are great,

00:17:21.280 these are good things.

00:17:22.720 But until plumbers rule the world,

00:17:25.280 unfortunately, we're in a scenario

00:17:27.280 where we're probably going to need lawyers

00:17:29.100 and experts in many different fields.

00:17:32.140 And again, I'm not necessarily saying

00:17:33.840 that that's the best paradigm.

00:17:35.100 I think it would be better if we had a focus,

00:17:37.880 I think, on more visceral jobs

00:17:40.340 rather than everything being about

00:17:41.740 manipulation of information

00:17:43.140 and the financialization of economics

00:17:46.300 and other aspects of our country.

00:17:49.940 But still, in this moment,

00:17:51.360 we do need a supply line of people

00:17:53.360 who can fill those roles.

00:17:55.760 And so it's very important

00:17:56.820 that you find some way,

00:17:58.720 ultimately, to get conservatives

00:18:00.740 qualified, experienced,

00:18:02.800 and into these positions of power.

00:18:05.820 But that really does lead us

00:18:07.840 to the next question.

00:18:08.980 And you kind of touched on it,

00:18:10.040 but I want to go a little more in depth.

00:18:12.520 These universities aren't just

00:18:14.420 like a little woke, right?

00:18:16.740 This isn't like Nike or something.

00:18:19.340 Like, ah, we're woke

00:18:20.160 because the marketing works.

00:18:21.600 We see the numbers.

00:18:22.800 My kid showed me something on Instagram

00:18:24.600 that's woke,

00:18:25.620 and that's probably what the kid's like.

00:18:27.300 Like, this is ground zero.

00:18:28.980 This is the birthplace.

00:18:30.420 This is the heart of the dragon.

00:18:32.940 You know, this is where

00:18:33.940 the ideology came from,

00:18:35.460 and it is soaked into every aspect.

00:18:39.300 You know, it's not just admissions.

00:18:40.960 It's everything being taught

00:18:42.300 in the classroom.

00:18:42.960 It's every paper being evaluated.

00:18:45.640 It's every student organization.

00:18:47.880 This is the definition

00:18:50.800 of a woke institution.

00:18:53.260 And so you're bringing legal pressure,

00:18:55.580 and that encourages them

00:18:56.980 to maybe be less bold

00:18:59.160 about their biases.

00:19:01.340 It encourages them maybe

00:19:02.620 to not formalize them

00:19:04.660 into documentation

00:19:05.540 that's easily brought into court,

00:19:07.260 these kind of things.

00:19:09.020 But can you truly cleanse

00:19:10.880 these organizations

00:19:11.780 of this ideology?

00:19:13.500 Can you actually turn them

00:19:14.840 to your purposes,

00:19:16.940 I think is the deeper question.

00:19:19.340 I think you can drive

00:19:20.260 a little bit of this stuff back,

00:19:22.280 but it feels like you're only

00:19:23.780 really trimming the excesses.

00:19:24.940 You have experiments

00:19:27.220 like Chris Ruffo's college

00:19:29.420 here in Florida

00:19:30.300 that are still, you know,

00:19:32.740 working to prove themselves.

00:19:34.540 But ultimately, the problem

00:19:35.680 is that these, you know,

00:19:36.860 these different schools

00:19:37.880 are networked.

00:19:39.060 You know, professors

00:19:39.940 work in the same milieu,

00:19:41.740 and they ultimately

00:19:42.600 are very reliant

00:19:44.500 on kind of meeting

00:19:45.740 the ideological requirements

00:19:47.760 of each other,

00:19:48.740 even if in one individual

00:19:50.620 or another university,

00:19:52.120 they kind of make headway

00:19:53.560 and get rid of some

00:19:54.340 of the leftism.

00:19:55.300 So do you think

00:19:56.400 that these things

00:19:57.220 actually can be changed

00:19:58.780 ideologically?

00:19:59.860 Is it really just about

00:20:00.980 beating back the excesses

00:20:02.440 to the point where

00:20:03.060 conservatives can be

00:20:04.100 somewhat successful?

00:20:05.260 Or is it truly about

00:20:06.840 a refounding

00:20:07.840 of these institutions

00:20:09.200 in maybe a Ruffo-style model?

00:20:11.840 When I found out

00:20:13.520 my friend got a great deal

00:20:14.880 on a designer dress

00:20:15.720 from Winners,

00:20:16.520 I started wondering,

00:20:18.160 is every fabulous item

00:20:19.720 I see from Winners?

00:20:21.320 Like that woman over there

00:20:22.580 with the Italian leather handbag.

00:20:24.260 Is that from Winners?

00:20:25.440 Ooh, or that beautiful silk skirt.

00:20:27.980 Did she pay full price?

00:20:29.220 Or those suede sneakers?

00:20:30.780 Or that luggage?

00:20:31.880 Or that trench?

00:20:33.020 Those jeans?

00:20:33.700 That jacket?

00:20:34.440 Those heels?

00:20:35.320 Is anyone paying full price

00:20:37.040 for anything?

00:20:38.260 Stop wondering.

00:20:39.540 Start winning.

00:20:40.480 Winners.

00:20:41.060 Find fabulous.

00:20:41.840 For less.

00:20:42.760 It's hard to say.

00:20:43.940 I mean, you know,

00:20:44.620 we have some startup efforts here

00:20:46.740 and I think it's good

00:20:47.540 that people are trying them

00:20:48.500 and I hope they succeed

00:20:49.760 dramatically.

00:20:50.680 I hope we get more

00:20:51.480 and I hope it would be really nice

00:20:54.220 if we could solve the problem

00:20:55.500 via just pure competition

00:20:57.300 and, you know,

00:20:58.560 creating new entrants.

00:21:00.380 I don't think we can.

00:21:02.000 So then we're left

00:21:02.920 with the choice of,

00:21:03.680 okay, do we, you know,

00:21:05.320 can we abolish the system

00:21:06.600 as it exists?

00:21:07.300 That's actually the first question.

00:21:08.420 It's not obvious

00:21:08.920 that we just simply could.

00:21:09.940 We could, you know,

00:21:10.840 say that, like,

00:21:11.500 could we nationalize

00:21:12.400 Harvard and Yale?

00:21:13.060 I don't think it'd be

00:21:13.860 a real challenge

00:21:14.740 and there'd never be the votes

00:21:15.840 for something like that.

00:21:18.340 So then it's, okay,

00:21:19.560 well, if we can't get rid

00:21:20.320 of Harvard and Yale,

00:21:21.040 can we fix them?

00:21:21.780 Can we get them to behave?

00:21:22.820 To a degree,

00:21:23.600 but you're right

00:21:24.240 that they're staffed

00:21:24.960 to the gills

00:21:25.340 with people who hate us.

00:21:27.220 So, you know,

00:21:28.180 it's not,

00:21:28.620 none of these are easy.

00:21:29.760 I mean,

00:21:29.960 it's certainly not an easy problem

00:21:31.520 to figure out

00:21:32.100 how to deal with the universities

00:21:33.680 more generally.

00:21:34.420 But, you know,

00:21:37.480 I think,

00:21:38.380 I don't know,

00:21:38.780 we just have to try

00:21:39.680 using the weapons

00:21:40.360 that we're starting

00:21:40.960 to figure out

00:21:41.420 are available to us.

00:21:42.480 Like, how effective

00:21:43.500 will it be

00:21:44.200 to cut off grant money

00:21:46.100 to some of these institutions,

00:21:47.460 the worst offenders?

00:21:48.380 What will it do

00:21:49.060 to the behavior

00:21:49.840 of everybody else

00:21:50.600 if they realize that,

00:21:52.140 you know,

00:21:52.460 anytime there's

00:21:53.100 a Republican administration,

00:21:54.340 the money spigot

00:21:54.960 could shut off

00:21:55.660 to all their top academics?

00:21:58.840 And that basically

00:22:00.420 all they'll be left with

00:22:01.440 is the woke idiots

00:22:02.560 who are the people

00:22:03.940 responsible for making sure

00:22:05.240 that none of their STEM people

00:22:06.660 can get any money

00:22:07.320 from the federal government.

00:22:08.440 Like, I think that might change

00:22:10.220 how these universities operate.

00:22:14.560 So, I mean,

00:22:15.620 it's just a question.

00:22:16.400 And then there's also

00:22:16.960 the question of like,

00:22:17.620 if we manage to prevail

00:22:18.840 on all this stuff

00:22:19.540 about racial discrimination,

00:22:20.480 can we cut off

00:22:21.180 student loan money?

00:22:22.180 Because clearly

00:22:22.760 student loan money

00:22:23.520 is, you know,

00:22:24.780 the gushing fountain

00:22:25.880 that allows

00:22:27.100 these universities

00:22:27.780 continue to operate

00:22:28.660 as they are.

00:22:29.800 Well, if we can cut

00:22:30.440 that off too,

00:22:31.080 then maybe we can force

00:22:31.860 them to behave

00:22:32.240 a different way.

00:22:32.940 I mean,

00:22:34.020 there is a vulnerability

00:22:35.900 here in that

00:22:36.700 these institutions

00:22:37.540 are so completely

00:22:38.720 dependent on federal money.

00:22:40.480 And if we're in a position

00:22:42.380 to cut that money off,

00:22:44.280 we can make a lot of demands.

00:22:45.800 And I think

00:22:46.360 there's reason

00:22:48.340 to be optimistic.

00:22:49.140 It's too soon.

00:22:49.920 You know,

00:22:50.160 we're literally

00:22:51.100 just at the start

00:22:51.820 of this experiment

00:22:52.380 because Republicans

00:22:52.960 have just not done this

00:22:53.980 for 50 years.

00:22:54.920 They just let it go.

00:22:56.420 And so, you know,

00:22:57.460 we're two months

00:22:58.020 into the administration.

00:22:59.000 We just have to say,

00:22:59.780 like,

00:23:00.440 I like what the administration

00:23:01.240 is doing more.

00:23:02.740 And then, you know,

00:23:03.820 in four years,

00:23:04.500 maybe we'd take stock

00:23:05.480 and be like,

00:23:06.160 what worked,

00:23:06.640 what didn't,

00:23:07.460 what more do we need to do?

00:23:08.480 And do we,

00:23:09.300 I mean,

00:23:09.700 maybe we need to go harder

00:23:10.720 on new private entrants.

00:23:11.940 Maybe we need to just

00:23:12.560 destroy the entities outright.

00:23:14.100 But let's see how,

00:23:15.380 you know,

00:23:15.580 we've clearly discovered

00:23:16.380 that we have these tools

00:23:17.380 available to us

00:23:18.120 that we've had all along.

00:23:19.280 Now we just got to use them

00:23:20.540 and see what we can do.

00:23:22.620 Yeah.

00:23:23.000 I mean,

00:23:23.240 personally,

00:23:23.580 I prefer tanks in Harvard Yard,

00:23:25.100 but I guess we can pull grants

00:23:26.360 until,

00:23:26.720 you know,

00:23:27.480 until they submit.

00:23:28.580 I guess that's a,

00:23:29.280 that's an option.

00:23:30.320 So,

00:23:31.040 you mentioned that

00:23:32.920 the administration

00:23:33.760 is just starting to do this.

00:23:35.000 And again,

00:23:35.540 God bless them.

00:23:36.300 So glad,

00:23:37.240 so glad

00:23:37.820 that they are.

00:23:40.440 However,

00:23:40.940 what does that say

00:23:42.260 about the conservative movement

00:23:44.460 for the last 50 years?

00:23:46.500 It's not,

00:23:47.100 you know,

00:23:47.220 a lot of people act

00:23:48.080 as if wokeness

00:23:49.000 to just kind of

00:23:49.660 showed up five years ago.

00:23:52.040 Literally,

00:23:52.280 the universities

00:23:53.360 were shut down

00:23:54.560 in the 60s

00:23:55.400 by leftists.

00:23:56.640 They had violent,

00:23:58.080 you know,

00:23:58.500 outbreaks all the time.

00:24:00.380 There is nothing new

00:24:01.660 about out-of-control leftism

00:24:03.620 on college campuses.

00:24:05.480 In fact,

00:24:06.160 wokeness is just

00:24:06.880 a continuation

00:24:07.600 of a very long string

00:24:09.960 of ideological positions

00:24:12.080 that have been reinforced

00:24:13.400 both by the professors

00:24:14.620 and the student body

00:24:15.740 well beyond

00:24:16.940 both of our lifetimes.

00:24:18.400 And yet,

00:24:18.920 conservatives

00:24:19.420 and Republicans

00:24:21.060 in general,

00:24:22.040 the actual,

00:24:23.120 you know,

00:24:23.360 political implement there

00:24:24.500 have literally done

00:24:25.980 nothing about this.

00:24:27.160 It has not even

00:24:27.980 mattered to them

00:24:28.980 in the slightest.

00:24:29.960 Some of it,

00:24:30.480 I guess,

00:24:30.880 can ultimately

00:24:31.380 be assessed

00:24:33.040 to what we talked

00:24:33.660 about earlier

00:24:34.200 with conservatives

00:24:35.080 and their hesitance

00:24:36.520 towards kind of

00:24:37.520 the college experience

00:24:38.740 in general

00:24:39.320 at the moment.

00:24:40.460 But I feel like

00:24:41.860 just saying,

00:24:42.540 well,

00:24:42.840 conservatives are cowards

00:24:44.320 while true

00:24:45.460 is insufficient

00:24:47.160 to explain

00:24:48.120 the level of

00:24:49.140 just kind of

00:24:50.040 being checked out

00:24:50.920 on this issue

00:24:51.740 for so long.

00:24:53.300 Was it that Republicans

00:24:54.140 just didn't recognize

00:24:55.740 the power of colleges?

00:24:57.120 Is it that they

00:24:57.900 didn't know

00:24:58.500 how to take action?

00:24:59.820 Is it that ultimately

00:25:00.760 they agreed

00:25:01.600 with the general direction

00:25:02.680 and just didn't like

00:25:03.380 the excesses?

00:25:04.500 Why do you think

00:25:05.160 it took so long

00:25:06.360 to get a presidential

00:25:07.060 administration

00:25:07.560 to do something

00:25:08.300 very basic

00:25:08.940 like use its ability

00:25:10.340 to pull a little bit

00:25:11.160 of funding

00:25:11.600 to get these people

00:25:12.220 to stop screaming

00:25:12.920 we hate you

00:25:13.880 and want to kill you?

00:25:16.040 I think it's a combination

00:25:17.320 of a lot of things.

00:25:18.700 I think,

00:25:19.580 you know,

00:25:20.360 oftentimes the people

00:25:21.320 who are sitting

00:25:21.720 in Congress

00:25:22.200 are older,

00:25:23.160 you know,

00:25:24.060 people,

00:25:24.560 especially on the

00:25:25.000 Republican side.

00:25:26.540 And those people

00:25:27.360 were always about like,

00:25:28.300 oh,

00:25:28.480 I want my legacy

00:25:29.300 to be education.

00:25:30.400 That's what I want

00:25:30.880 my legacy to be.

00:25:31.920 So they'd be,

00:25:32.420 you know,

00:25:33.020 pushing for more funding.

00:25:34.380 They'd be opposed

00:25:35.020 to anything

00:25:35.440 in a Republican

00:25:36.020 administration would do.

00:25:38.600 You have regulatory

00:25:39.520 capture issues.

00:25:41.080 I mean,

00:25:41.320 it's just,

00:25:41.760 if you've watched

00:25:42.260 Yes Minister,

00:25:42.740 you know what the problems

00:25:43.620 can be for a new presidency

00:25:45.460 that comes in.

00:25:46.140 I think what we're benefiting

00:25:47.520 from now

00:25:48.280 is this interesting phenomenon

00:25:49.660 where we have Trump

00:25:51.000 coming in for a second term

00:25:52.300 after a four-year period

00:25:53.840 where he was not in office,

00:25:55.380 but his team was thinking

00:25:56.300 about what they could do.

00:25:57.900 And so they're showing up

00:25:58.760 on day one

00:25:59.500 unbelievably aggressively.

00:26:01.220 And I think

00:26:01.600 what it's leading to

00:26:02.380 is,

00:26:03.220 you know,

00:26:03.480 liberals have,

00:26:05.160 and Bruce Ackerman,

00:26:06.060 I think,

00:26:06.320 is the guy who came up

00:26:06.960 with the idea

00:26:07.320 of a constitutional moment,

00:26:08.800 which is the idea

00:26:09.720 that every so often

00:26:11.180 in our country

00:26:11.820 there's this like

00:26:12.640 renegotiation

00:26:13.540 of our constitutional order.

00:26:14.980 It's informal

00:26:15.860 and not explicit.

00:26:17.160 It's not like

00:26:17.800 we're rewriting amendments

00:26:18.920 or anything,

00:26:19.320 but it's a new understanding.

00:26:21.340 The New Deal

00:26:21.800 would be a good example

00:26:22.860 of this

00:26:23.340 where,

00:26:23.720 you know,

00:26:24.420 Franklin Roosevelt

00:26:24.920 lost a bunch of cases,

00:26:26.980 bullied the Supreme Court

00:26:27.860 to go along

00:26:28.600 with what he wanted.

00:26:29.180 We had a new understanding

00:26:30.200 as a way of thinking about it

00:26:31.680 of what our government

00:26:33.000 could do

00:26:33.480 and what the president

00:26:34.100 was allowed to do.

00:26:35.060 It's like,

00:26:35.300 well,

00:26:35.420 we might actually be looking

00:26:36.480 at something similar here

00:26:37.520 where,

00:26:37.900 you know,

00:26:38.640 there have been

00:26:38.980 this historical understanding

00:26:40.440 or historical hesitance

00:26:41.640 from Republicans

00:26:42.320 to really do anything

00:26:43.540 with the power

00:26:44.100 they have in the executive

00:26:45.000 outside of foreign policy.

00:26:47.240 And this Trump administration

00:26:48.780 is being like,

00:26:49.540 no,

00:26:49.760 actually,

00:26:50.320 the Constitution says

00:26:51.160 I have all this power

00:26:52.060 and I intend to use it.

00:26:54.480 Okay.

00:26:55.600 You know,

00:26:56.220 that's,

00:26:57.500 I think,

00:26:58.380 you know,

00:26:58.760 I think that's sort of,

00:27:00.200 you know,

00:27:00.720 I'm upset,

00:27:01.600 obviously,

00:27:02.000 with the history

00:27:02.740 of the conservative movement

00:27:03.580 not doing this stuff,

00:27:04.700 but I'm thrilled.

00:27:06.640 You know,

00:27:06.860 I don't know

00:27:07.480 how you could not be.

00:27:08.280 If you're actually like

00:27:09.540 a hard-right Republican,

00:27:11.320 I don't know

00:27:11.800 how you could be upset

00:27:12.680 for the first two months

00:27:13.380 of the Trump administration.

00:27:14.500 It actually blows my mind.

00:27:16.540 It's,

00:27:17.040 this is the best beginning

00:27:18.900 to an administration

00:27:19.660 I can remember

00:27:20.560 in my lifetime.

00:27:22.220 What they are trying

00:27:23.300 to accomplish

00:27:24.040 is so dramatic

00:27:25.440 across so many areas.

00:27:27.720 And they came in

00:27:28.660 locked and loaded,

00:27:29.400 prepared with a slew

00:27:30.260 of executive orders

00:27:31.000 and a sense of,

00:27:31.780 no,

00:27:31.860 no,

00:27:31.960 no,

00:27:32.120 we really are going

00:27:32.920 to try and take over

00:27:33.540 the federal government.

00:27:34.600 We aren't,

00:27:35.100 you know,

00:27:35.500 we aren't just here

00:27:36.100 to take part.

00:27:36.740 We're here to take over.

00:27:38.160 And I think

00:27:38.800 that's what's happened.

00:27:40.300 You know,

00:27:40.900 I think for a lot of people,

00:27:42.240 I am certainly ecstatic

00:27:44.020 about the first few months

00:27:45.620 of the Trump administration,

00:27:47.300 to be sure.

00:27:48.480 But I think

00:27:49.100 for some people,

00:27:49.960 they've just seen

00:27:50.860 this movie a lot.

00:27:52.440 You know,

00:27:52.960 there are big promises.

00:27:54.640 We're going to make

00:27:55.060 these big changes.

00:27:56.160 We're going to take

00:27:56.660 the big action.

00:27:57.940 You get a few things done,

00:28:00.020 but then the judicial,

00:28:01.760 you know,

00:28:02.240 obstruction steps in.

00:28:04.280 You know,

00:28:04.400 the bureaucratic obstruction

00:28:05.960 comes in.

00:28:06.620 And I think

00:28:07.320 a lot of people

00:28:07.880 are just worried

00:28:08.820 that this will stall out,

00:28:10.340 that at some point

00:28:11.080 the Trump administration

00:28:11.920 will hit a snag,

00:28:13.420 it'll get bogged down.

00:28:15.400 And,

00:28:15.600 you know,

00:28:16.000 this is happening,

00:28:17.080 of course,

00:28:17.460 in the larger context

00:28:19.120 of all this judicial overreach,

00:28:22.100 right?

00:28:22.360 That President Trump

00:28:23.380 apparently doesn't have

00:28:24.400 the ability

00:28:24.800 to command the military

00:28:26.340 or operate

00:28:28.080 any of the executive agencies.

00:28:29.720 He can't even decide

00:28:30.440 who's in the military.

00:28:31.580 It's judges who decide

00:28:32.960 who gets put in the military,

00:28:34.900 whether or not

00:28:35.520 mentally ill people

00:28:36.300 should be fighting

00:28:37.280 on the front lines.

00:28:38.720 You know,

00:28:38.900 that's a decision

00:28:39.580 for a random judge to make.

00:28:41.400 We've seen a lot of this,

00:28:43.080 and so I'm with you

00:28:44.540 about the enthusiasm,

00:28:45.820 but I do understand

00:28:47.980 why people keep

00:28:49.500 kind of harassing,

00:28:51.580 you know,

00:28:51.820 the Trump administration,

00:28:52.780 prodding them,

00:28:53.480 encouraging them

00:28:54.320 to continue to accelerate,

00:28:55.960 because you see

00:28:57.120 this giant outbreak

00:28:58.220 of judges

00:28:59.300 who,

00:28:59.960 while we're screaming about,

00:29:01.140 yeah,

00:29:01.240 I can't believe

00:29:02.000 that anyone would try

00:29:03.620 to ignore a judge

00:29:04.980 or override a judge,

00:29:06.120 even as we see,

00:29:07.100 you know,

00:29:07.700 colleges actively

00:29:08.620 doing that right now.

00:29:10.120 I think a lot of people

00:29:11.120 are worried that,

00:29:12.420 you know,

00:29:12.600 the Trump administration

00:29:13.300 might just not have

00:29:14.100 a fight in it.

00:29:14.840 They might not know

00:29:15.440 how to circumvent

00:29:16.700 some of these actions.

00:29:18.360 What do you think

00:29:18.940 about the way

00:29:19.980 that judges are fighting

00:29:21.320 the Trump administration

00:29:22.200 right now?

00:29:23.200 What do you think

00:29:23.580 about the Trump administration's

00:29:24.820 response?

00:29:25.740 Do they have a good plan?

00:29:26.980 Are they pushing

00:29:27.480 things forward?

00:29:28.220 In a way that's going

00:29:28.880 to resolve these issues?

00:29:30.100 What do you think

00:29:30.780 their response should be

00:29:31.920 if the one they're doing

00:29:33.000 right now is subpar?

00:29:34.880 So I think this is

00:29:36.020 another place

00:29:36.460 where I think

00:29:36.760 the administration

00:29:37.240 is really fighting hard

00:29:38.720 and doing an impressive job.

00:29:40.620 So, for example,

00:29:41.960 in this D.C. case

00:29:44.280 where we are talking

00:29:45.020 about the trend

00:29:45.400 of Aragua migrants

00:29:47.880 who were trying

00:29:48.840 to are terrorists,

00:29:49.660 really,

00:29:49.880 who were deported

00:29:50.360 to El Salvador.

00:29:51.800 And, you know,

00:29:52.520 there was this injunction

00:29:53.360 imposed by this D.C. judge

00:29:55.080 telling him to turn

00:29:55.680 the planes around

00:29:56.400 or, you know,

00:29:57.440 stop removing

00:29:58.140 these people.

00:29:58.780 And DOJ

00:30:00.420 is taking this

00:30:00.920 unbelievably seriously.

00:30:02.520 And understand

00:30:03.760 what DOJ

00:30:04.220 is trying to do.

00:30:05.000 They don't want

00:30:05.920 to defy

00:30:06.780 foreborgs.

00:30:07.940 Understandably,

00:30:08.420 it would be

00:30:08.900 somewhat unprecedented.

00:30:10.320 There are political risks

00:30:11.240 and straightforward

00:30:12.000 defiance.

00:30:13.500 But they are doing,

00:30:15.060 they're,

00:30:15.320 they're,

00:30:16.140 they are basically

00:30:16.860 telling the courts,

00:30:17.980 if you guys

00:30:18.720 don't fix this,

00:30:19.640 that's where we're headed.

00:30:20.900 We are headed

00:30:21.480 towards disregarding you.

00:30:23.020 You're creating

00:30:23.820 an interbranch collision.

00:30:25.640 And I think

00:30:25.940 the way to look

00:30:26.480 at that is

00:30:27.040 it may not seem

00:30:28.480 like much

00:30:28.980 to just a layperson,

00:30:30.240 but the briefs

00:30:31.320 that are getting

00:30:31.680 filed in this

00:30:32.580 district court case

00:30:33.480 are getting signed

00:30:34.300 by Pam Bondi,

00:30:35.440 Todd Blanche,

00:30:36.140 Ilma Bove,

00:30:37.120 and a number

00:30:37.700 of top DOJ lawyers.

00:30:39.280 That's,

00:30:40.140 DOJ doesn't normally

00:30:40.840 do that normally

00:30:41.560 in any given case.

00:30:42.520 It's just the trial lawyer

00:30:43.540 and maybe the head

00:30:44.240 of the division

00:30:44.780 responsible for that.

00:30:45.740 So you might see

00:30:46.260 the head of the

00:30:47.000 civil division

00:30:47.800 or something

00:30:48.360 sign a brief

00:30:49.220 in the

00:30:50.280 Bosberg case

00:30:51.120 and the

00:30:51.480 Trendyrago case.

00:30:52.920 No,

00:30:53.280 it's everybody.

00:30:54.000 It's the entire

00:30:54.460 top four.

00:30:55.500 What that is

00:30:56.060 is DOJ

00:30:57.580 institutionally

00:30:58.620 screaming at the judge.

00:30:59.840 That's what you have

00:31:00.280 to understand

00:31:00.760 that those signatures

00:31:01.560 mean.

00:31:02.240 Screaming at the judge,

00:31:03.460 get your act together,

00:31:04.760 we're not okay

00:31:05.560 with this at all,

00:31:06.700 like you're headed

00:31:07.700 and the stridency

00:31:09.340 in some of the briefing,

00:31:10.380 like they're very,

00:31:11.360 very aggressive.

00:31:12.160 So I think

00:31:13.940 they're doing

00:31:15.400 the right things

00:31:16.960 for now.

00:31:17.480 So the real question

00:31:18.560 is going to be coming

00:31:19.860 not right now

00:31:21.300 where a lot of the stuff

00:31:22.380 is still in this weird

00:31:23.400 procedural posture

00:31:24.280 where it's a lot of this

00:31:25.280 is going up on temporary

00:31:26.300 restraining orders

00:31:27.120 which are normally

00:31:28.240 not appealable

00:31:29.040 and the Supreme Court

00:31:30.500 hasn't really weighed in

00:31:31.420 on much yet.

00:31:32.200 They haven't really had

00:31:32.960 a case come to them

00:31:33.820 on regular order.

00:31:35.380 I still,

00:31:35.720 I mean,

00:31:36.200 separate question of

00:31:36.860 whether they should

00:31:37.300 have intervened already.

00:31:38.080 They should have,

00:31:38.760 but we're still not

00:31:40.480 at the point where

00:31:40.960 they've ruled against us

00:31:42.540 is I guess the point.

00:31:43.920 So we'll see what happens

00:31:45.160 in terms of what

00:31:46.120 the Supreme Court

00:31:46.640 decides to do.

00:31:48.080 They're coming down

00:31:48.680 against us on a number

00:31:49.600 of these issues

00:31:50.100 and the question is,

00:31:50.900 okay,

00:31:51.000 do you comply?

00:31:51.980 Do you defy?

00:31:52.720 Do you disregard?

00:31:53.840 Do you drag feet?

00:31:56.680 And so that'll be

00:31:57.580 I think the real test

00:31:58.500 of the administration

00:31:59.160 like how far

00:32:00.220 is it willing to go

00:32:01.140 to get victories

00:32:02.560 on these questions?

00:32:04.220 But what I'd say

00:32:06.240 what they are doing now

00:32:08.020 at DOJ

00:32:08.960 is what they should be doing,

00:32:10.620 right?

00:32:11.060 You don't want to

00:32:12.180 immediately go straight

00:32:13.940 to defiance,

00:32:14.840 right?

00:32:14.980 That's not the first move.

00:32:16.240 There's good reasons

00:32:17.000 for that because

00:32:17.740 I mean,

00:32:19.000 you go,

00:32:19.680 you're basically

00:32:20.100 going to 11,

00:32:20.800 you don't need to

00:32:21.380 right away

00:32:21.900 and the court

00:32:22.440 hasn't even had

00:32:23.140 a chance to rule.

00:32:25.020 What they're kind of doing

00:32:26.080 is more foot dragging

00:32:27.000 type stuff

00:32:27.680 where they're sort of

00:32:29.420 slow rolling their compliance

00:32:30.600 or they're invoking

00:32:31.200 the state secrets privilege

00:32:32.380 in the Trento-Rago case

00:32:33.760 to say we're not going

00:32:34.340 to give you

00:32:34.620 any more information

00:32:35.360 or they're doing,

00:32:36.200 they're trying to

00:32:37.460 stay within the bounds

00:32:39.460 of like we are complying

00:32:40.520 with a letter of your orders

00:32:41.500 to the extent we can

00:32:42.720 and not overtly defying them.

00:32:45.620 And I think that given,

00:32:47.200 again,

00:32:47.380 we're only two months in,

00:32:48.860 that's the right play for now.

00:32:50.460 Whether that remains

00:32:51.200 the right play,

00:32:51.940 it's unclear.

00:32:52.520 It'll depend on

00:32:53.000 what the court decides to do.

00:32:55.340 It's a little more zoomed out,

00:32:57.220 but you said something

00:32:57.900 interesting previously

00:32:59.100 that I wanted to talk

00:33:00.280 about for a second.

00:33:01.280 You mentioned that,

00:33:02.420 you know,

00:33:02.720 throughout American history,

00:33:03.980 we regularly enter

00:33:05.220 into these periods

00:33:06.180 of somewhat of a negotiation

00:33:08.040 on how the Constitution

00:33:10.340 is going to operate.

00:33:11.600 You know,

00:33:11.940 that nothing changes

00:33:13.080 in the form,

00:33:14.060 but in the function,

00:33:15.440 we see a significant alteration

00:33:17.880 in how governance works.

00:33:19.680 And you pointed to

00:33:20.620 the possibility

00:33:21.260 of Trump being a new FDR,

00:33:23.300 which I would really like,

00:33:24.660 not that I wanted to do

00:33:25.500 what FDR did policy-wise,

00:33:27.680 but I would like to see him

00:33:28.740 with that level

00:33:29.580 of executive vigor

00:33:31.520 and confidence.

00:33:32.780 And, you know,

00:33:33.480 heading out the gate,

00:33:34.660 it doesn't seem like

00:33:35.480 that's entirely

00:33:36.500 out of the question.

00:33:38.040 That said,

00:33:39.140 you know,

00:33:39.380 a lot of conservatives,

00:33:40.560 especially,

00:33:41.100 really like the idea

00:33:43.340 of a very hard

00:33:46.720 and fast Constitution,

00:33:48.200 right?

00:33:48.400 The living Constitution

00:33:49.440 is a leftist idea,

00:33:51.620 the idea that the Constitution

00:33:52.880 is under negotiation,

00:33:54.040 that it has these changes

00:33:55.980 on a regular basis,

00:33:56.900 that the interpretations

00:33:57.920 move on a very regular basis.

00:34:00.340 That's usually something

00:34:01.460 that's championed

00:34:02.400 by the other side

00:34:03.520 of the aisle.

00:34:05.060 Now,

00:34:05.560 given the wiggle room

00:34:06.900 that I think the founders

00:34:07.860 wisely built

00:34:08.840 into the Constitution,

00:34:10.820 it allows for us

00:34:11.880 to have significant change

00:34:13.560 without revolution,

00:34:14.720 which is a pretty good thing

00:34:16.260 to have.

00:34:17.140 You know,

00:34:17.380 France has to number

00:34:18.280 its republics.

00:34:19.520 We kind of just pretend

00:34:20.520 they've all been the same thing,

00:34:21.740 even though we see

00:34:22.440 pretty significant differences

00:34:23.820 in the way the Constitution

00:34:24.840 operates between,

00:34:26.400 say,

00:34:27.000 you know,

00:34:27.340 1850 and the 1940s.

00:34:31.020 These things are very different

00:34:32.580 ways the Constitution operates.

00:34:34.520 Do you think that overall

00:34:35.880 having a lack of formalization

00:34:39.800 in the way that we change

00:34:42.580 and operate our government

00:34:43.840 is a good thing?

00:34:45.160 Does it give it

00:34:45.600 a more robust,

00:34:46.780 flexible nature

00:34:47.560 to the American system

00:34:49.940 of government?

00:34:50.800 Or does it hide the fact

00:34:52.940 that we are changing

00:34:54.160 these things

00:34:54.980 without an explicit

00:34:57.320 legal ruling

00:34:58.660 on a regular basis

00:34:59.620 and kind of

00:35:00.640 leave people

00:35:01.740 unable to determine

00:35:03.260 when significant changes

00:35:04.580 have happened

00:35:05.220 inside their governance?

00:35:07.240 I think this is

00:35:07.820 especially a hard question,

00:35:09.400 again,

00:35:09.600 for conservatives

00:35:10.160 who really tend

00:35:11.720 to push back

00:35:12.300 against the idea

00:35:13.020 that the Constitution

00:35:14.200 should be something

00:35:14.980 that changes

00:35:16.000 or flexes

00:35:16.940 or gets renegotiated

00:35:18.060 without a formal addition

00:35:19.820 of, you know,

00:35:20.980 different amendments,

00:35:22.020 these kind of things?

00:35:22.640 Yeah, I mean,

00:35:24.340 I think as a general idea,

00:35:25.560 it's good to have

00:35:26.040 some amount of play

00:35:27.000 in the joints

00:35:27.500 of your governing structure.

00:35:28.760 I think that, you know,

00:35:29.520 I mean,

00:35:29.780 the founders had

00:35:30.500 the amendment process.

00:35:31.600 Now that's functionally impossible,

00:35:32.720 but, you know,

00:35:33.400 I think that that was part

00:35:34.880 of their design idea

00:35:35.880 was that there would be

00:35:36.680 some play in the joints,

00:35:37.560 some ability to change things.

00:35:40.140 But it's probably

00:35:40.840 challenging to do so.

00:35:41.800 I think the way

00:35:42.180 to reconcile this tension

00:35:43.500 is at least that

00:35:44.880 there's a very compelling argument

00:35:46.160 that what the Trump

00:35:46.800 administration is doing

00:35:47.720 is actually going back

00:35:48.860 to a more sound

00:35:49.760 or textual understanding

00:35:50.820 of what the Constitution says.

00:35:52.640 Right.

00:35:53.020 Like the so much

00:35:54.340 of what they're doing

00:35:54.980 is going back to

00:35:55.760 I think the unitary executive

00:35:57.060 is a good idea.

00:35:58.040 So for viewers

00:35:59.300 or listeners

00:36:00.080 who might not understand,

00:36:01.240 the unitary executive

00:36:01.960 is the idea

00:36:02.640 that all of the executive power

00:36:04.280 is vested in the president

00:36:05.400 of the United States.

00:36:06.340 It's not to say he's king.

00:36:07.880 There's other powers.

00:36:08.960 There's traditional

00:36:09.420 and legislative power.

00:36:10.740 But when it comes

00:36:12.220 to executive power,

00:36:13.280 things like the ability

00:36:13.900 to prosecute,

00:36:15.240 things like the ability

00:36:16.040 to wage war,

00:36:17.060 all of that authority

00:36:17.940 is vested in the president

00:36:18.980 and the president

00:36:19.660 distributes it himself

00:36:20.920 among his subordinates.

00:36:22.540 What that means

00:36:23.120 is that he ought

00:36:24.200 to have the right

00:36:24.760 to appoint

00:36:25.460 and remove

00:36:26.140 every head

00:36:26.800 of every agency

00:36:27.780 wielding any kind

00:36:28.660 of executive power.

00:36:30.860 And we're already seeing

00:36:32.180 that he's challenging

00:36:33.260 a pretty important

00:36:34.040 Supreme Court case.

00:36:35.280 DOJ put out a memo

00:36:36.100 saying we think

00:36:37.140 the Humphreys executor case,

00:36:38.600 which has been on the books

00:36:39.360 for 90 years,

00:36:40.480 was wrongly decided.

00:36:41.920 And we are going to

00:36:43.080 say that it wrongly restrains

00:36:45.400 the authority

00:36:46.480 of the president

00:36:46.920 to remove officers

00:36:48.700 who wield executive power.

00:36:51.800 So they're challenging that,

00:36:53.540 which,

00:36:53.880 and the two primary places

00:36:55.260 where that comes into play

00:36:56.060 are the Federal Communications

00:36:57.060 Commission

00:36:57.460 and the Federal Trade Commission.

00:36:59.520 And I'm pretty sure

00:37:00.520 that President Trump

00:37:02.140 officially fired

00:37:02.940 two members

00:37:03.500 of the Federal Trade Commission

00:37:05.000 without cause,

00:37:06.400 without any reason,

00:37:08.500 which is,

00:37:08.920 you know,

00:37:09.460 setting up exactly,

00:37:10.900 you know,

00:37:11.180 honestly,

00:37:11.700 two or three years ago

00:37:12.340 I gave a speech at NatCon

00:37:13.560 on exactly this,

00:37:14.820 that he should just fire

00:37:15.700 some people

00:37:16.160 that under Humphreys executor

00:37:17.840 nominally can't be fired

00:37:19.240 and take it to the Supreme Court

00:37:20.400 and try and get that precedent

00:37:21.400 of return.

00:37:23.720 So I think,

00:37:24.500 I think he can be the guy

00:37:25.740 who brings forward

00:37:26.500 this constitutional moment.

00:37:27.860 What DOJ is doing

00:37:29.120 suggests to me

00:37:29.880 that that is one of their goals.

00:37:31.460 Like,

00:37:31.900 they,

00:37:32.380 they want to be

00:37:33.320 at the vanguard of this.

00:37:34.880 Everybody's on the same page.

00:37:36.140 Like,

00:37:36.460 we want to restructure

00:37:37.440 the government.

00:37:38.060 We want to return it

00:37:38.900 to the unit,

00:37:40.400 you know,

00:37:40.720 what we feel is

00:37:41.480 a more textually accurate

00:37:42.720 understanding of the Constitution,

00:37:43.860 the idea of a unitary

00:37:44.660 executive.

00:37:46.000 And I think that's the way

00:37:47.180 to sort of reconcile

00:37:47.920 this question of like,

00:37:49.040 are we,

00:37:49.500 are we doing kind of

00:37:50.520 a living Constitution thing?

00:37:51.680 It's like,

00:37:52.340 well,

00:37:52.760 no,

00:37:53.220 but in a sense that

00:37:54.120 we're recognizing

00:37:54.880 that the living Constitution

00:37:55.800 is already there.

00:37:56.740 It's been created

00:37:57.320 by the left.

00:37:58.440 And so we're doing,

00:37:59.940 we're not just accepting

00:38:00.980 what they built

00:38:01.900 as the way things have to be.

00:38:03.440 We're,

00:38:03.680 we're going to try

00:38:04.180 and fix it.

00:38:05.120 Yeah.

00:38:05.580 And,

00:38:05.740 and to be clear,

00:38:06.640 I am a big fan of,

00:38:09.180 again,

00:38:09.340 what the Trump administration

00:38:10.100 is doing in this regard.

00:38:11.480 And I agree that

00:38:12.900 what we are seeing

00:38:13.860 is a return to a

00:38:14.920 more constitutional

00:38:16.560 governance

00:38:17.360 than we had previously.

00:38:19.880 It's not a perversion

00:38:21.060 of the type of government

00:38:22.980 we're supposed to have.

00:38:23.720 It's in many ways

00:38:24.660 a return to

00:38:25.460 the way the executive

00:38:26.440 is actually supposed to operate.

00:38:28.340 I think the executive

00:38:29.100 is actually supposed

00:38:29.920 to be pretty close

00:38:30.760 to a king.

00:38:31.300 You know,

00:38:31.640 even when you have

00:38:32.520 a constitutional monarch,

00:38:33.520 you still have

00:38:34.080 legislatures and judges

00:38:35.600 and these things

00:38:36.340 that the power

00:38:37.100 that the executive wields

00:38:39.160 is that,

00:38:40.040 that the king

00:38:40.660 would normally have.

00:38:41.960 And so it makes sense

00:38:43.360 that the king

00:38:44.020 in our sense is elected.

00:38:45.040 It's not,

00:38:45.540 it's not hereditary.

00:38:46.620 You know,

00:38:47.120 the powers are more limited,

00:38:49.180 but you do need

00:38:50.420 that executive function.

00:38:51.480 That is a real necessity

00:38:52.800 in any given

00:38:53.740 operational government.

00:38:55.440 And so you,

00:38:56.540 you don't want to,

00:38:57.800 I don't,

00:38:59.080 I worry sometimes

00:39:00.620 that because

00:39:01.520 we're so worried

00:39:02.920 about that comparison

00:39:03.920 to a king

00:39:04.540 or,

00:39:04.860 you know,

00:39:05.020 a man of action,

00:39:06.340 that we strip away

00:39:07.420 essential,

00:39:08.320 you know,

00:39:08.760 necessary actions,

00:39:09.940 you know,

00:39:10.160 duties that should be

00:39:11.500 with the executive.

00:39:12.340 We weaken the,

00:39:13.160 the argument

00:39:13.760 that the executive

00:39:14.440 should be able

00:39:15.000 to wield this power

00:39:15.900 because we're,

00:39:16.900 we're so terrified

00:39:18.020 of that comparison.

00:39:19.360 But ultimately,

00:39:20.200 I do think there is

00:39:21.120 an important change

00:39:22.040 that might need

00:39:22.500 to take place.

00:39:23.260 I mean,

00:39:23.360 again,

00:39:23.600 I agree with everything

00:39:24.480 you said about

00:39:25.280 returning us closer

00:39:26.600 to a constitutional government,

00:39:28.260 but I think it would be

00:39:29.400 very helpful

00:39:30.280 if conservatives

00:39:31.380 shifted their understanding

00:39:32.660 of the constitution

00:39:33.860 to something

00:39:35.200 that reflects

00:39:36.200 the way of being,

00:39:39.000 the tradition,

00:39:39.820 the understanding

00:39:40.560 that was there

00:39:42.400 at the founding

00:39:44.140 and something

00:39:44.940 that they have

00:39:45.540 to actively animate,

00:39:47.060 they have to actively pursue.

00:39:48.400 It's not something

00:39:49.040 that you just write down

00:39:50.360 and it stays,

00:39:51.200 you know,

00:39:51.400 we're an originalist,

00:39:52.400 you write it down,

00:39:53.060 it stays there in perpetuity,

00:39:54.220 those are the words

00:39:54.820 on the page.

00:39:55.700 Well,

00:39:55.940 yes,

00:39:56.520 but if you don't believe them,

00:39:57.800 if the people

00:39:58.320 who are running

00:39:58.760 your institutions

00:39:59.420 don't believe them,

00:40:00.520 if you don't understand

00:40:01.280 where those values

00:40:02.200 came from

00:40:02.760 and that they can

00:40:03.920 and will change

00:40:05.120 even if the words

00:40:06.480 on the page

00:40:07.320 stay the same,

00:40:08.540 then you fundamentally

00:40:09.720 misunderstand

00:40:10.680 something about

00:40:11.380 the nature of law

00:40:12.160 and the nature

00:40:12.620 of human civilization

00:40:13.640 and I think that idea

00:40:15.560 that the constitution

00:40:16.840 is basically

00:40:17.420 like this kind of

00:40:18.500 new piece

00:40:19.300 of political technology

00:40:20.700 that locked us

00:40:21.580 into freedom forever.

00:40:22.640 You just kind of

00:40:23.140 write down,

00:40:24.100 you know,

00:40:24.320 the separation of powers

00:40:25.340 and the Bill of Rights

00:40:26.880 and those things

00:40:27.720 just kind of safeguard you

00:40:28.840 in perpetuity

00:40:29.760 and yeah,

00:40:30.400 you got to keep

00:40:30.900 the Democrats

00:40:31.280 from doing anything

00:40:32.000 too wacky

00:40:32.700 every once in a while

00:40:33.400 but for the most part,

00:40:34.600 you know,

00:40:34.900 once it's written down,

00:40:35.880 that's what it is.

00:40:36.840 I think that kind of notion

00:40:38.320 of the way

00:40:39.460 constitutions work

00:40:40.400 has ultimately harmed

00:40:41.780 the conservative movement.

00:40:42.940 Not going for the whole

00:40:44.260 postmodern

00:40:44.980 the constitution means

00:40:46.000 whatever we want it to mean

00:40:47.060 whenever we want it to mean it

00:40:48.820 but a thing that the left

00:40:50.380 has done

00:40:50.760 but understanding that

00:40:51.900 all vibrant traditions

00:40:54.700 are living

00:40:55.440 and the constitution

00:40:56.700 is a tradition

00:40:58.000 in the realist sense.

00:41:00.440 It's a formalization

00:41:01.420 of a tradition

00:41:02.080 and you have to be willing

00:41:04.140 to understand

00:41:05.000 that that thing can

00:41:05.980 and will change

00:41:07.100 with the times

00:41:07.900 if you're not vigilant,

00:41:09.380 if you're not working

00:41:10.460 to constantly make sure

00:41:11.500 that the people in charge,

00:41:12.740 the people staffing

00:41:13.780 these organizations,

00:41:14.820 the people writing

00:41:15.480 these decisions

00:41:16.160 and, you know,

00:41:16.960 educating these lawyers

00:41:19.200 and these kind of things,

00:41:20.080 if they don't have

00:41:20.900 that value system,

00:41:21.720 if they're not steeped

00:41:22.640 in that tradition,

00:41:23.780 then it doesn't really matter

00:41:25.080 what you wrote down

00:41:26.120 on a piece of paper

00:41:26.960 because ultimately

00:41:27.900 it's not going

00:41:28.620 to enforce itself.

00:41:30.500 Right.

00:41:31.620 I mean,

00:41:33.240 the law isn't math,

00:41:34.860 right?

00:41:35.140 I think that's an important

00:41:35.980 thing for people to remember.

00:41:37.220 Law is not code.

00:41:37.980 Law is not math.

00:41:39.280 There's a fundamental

00:41:39.920 indeterminacy to language

00:41:40.960 at the margin.

00:41:41.780 That's not to say

00:41:42.380 that you're,

00:41:42.880 you know,

00:41:43.080 I'm some sort of like

00:41:43.880 crazy Derrida person

00:41:45.720 that thinks that all this,

00:41:46.760 you know,

00:41:46.960 language is meaningless

00:41:47.800 and everything is,

00:41:49.060 you know,

00:41:49.400 everything is just power.

00:41:51.080 That's not true.

00:41:52.360 But I think conservatives

00:41:53.860 would do well

00:41:54.320 to sort of understand

00:41:55.280 that,

00:41:56.060 you know,

00:41:56.340 at the margins

00:41:57.000 of this stuff

00:41:57.400 there is indeterminacy.

00:41:59.300 And as a result,

00:42:01.200 you're going to get

00:42:02.080 some evolution

00:42:02.640 over time inevitably

00:42:03.500 in the way that judges

00:42:04.900 interpret things

00:42:05.540 in the way that

00:42:06.020 populations understand it.

00:42:07.360 So,

00:42:07.480 I mean,

00:42:07.780 a good,

00:42:08.240 really simple one

00:42:08.940 is the Fourth Amendment.

00:42:09.820 So,

00:42:10.480 you know,

00:42:10.800 the government is barred

00:42:12.140 from engaging

00:42:12.640 in unreasonable searches

00:42:13.720 and seizures.

00:42:14.240 Well,

00:42:14.360 what is unreasonable?

00:42:15.740 Right?

00:42:16.000 And it develops over time

00:42:17.900 and sort of,

00:42:18.900 you know,

00:42:19.100 the originalists

00:42:19.940 on the court

00:42:20.300 try and keep it

00:42:21.320 contained to sort of

00:42:22.600 an understanding

00:42:23.180 of reasonableness

00:42:23.860 of the founding.

00:42:24.720 But inherently,

00:42:26.180 over time

00:42:26.820 and over the body

00:42:27.580 of case law,

00:42:28.320 even among

00:42:28.760 conservative justices,

00:42:30.380 there's an element

00:42:31.160 of like how our

00:42:32.300 modern worldview

00:42:33.640 shapes what we think

00:42:34.720 of as reasonable

00:42:35.540 and therefore

00:42:36.580 gets back,

00:42:38.380 that understanding

00:42:38.940 gets reflected

00:42:39.540 in the law.

00:42:41.600 So,

00:42:42.360 some amount

00:42:43.300 of this is inevitable.

00:42:44.020 I think,

00:42:44.700 you know,

00:42:45.040 it's best not to fall

00:42:46.080 into the trap

00:42:46.620 of assuming that

00:42:47.320 if, you know,

00:42:47.600 we just go back

00:42:48.140 to the written text,

00:42:48.660 everything will be fine.

00:42:49.440 It's obvious and easy.

00:42:51.400 We won't have

00:42:52.100 these problems.

00:42:53.480 And also to recognize

00:42:54.740 that because of that

00:42:55.540 indeterminacy

00:42:56.220 and where there's,

00:42:57.160 we should be willing

00:42:58.020 to take aggressive

00:42:58.740 legal positions

00:42:59.500 that aren't necessarily,

00:43:01.360 you know,

00:43:02.680 that aren't frivolous

00:43:03.740 but are colorable.

00:43:05.220 And I think that

00:43:05.620 that's an important

00:43:06.100 distinction for people

00:43:06.720 to understand.

00:43:07.300 Colorable arguments

00:43:07.880 are defensible arguments.

00:43:08.740 We should be making

00:43:09.500 aggressive defensible

00:43:11.020 legal arguments

00:43:11.740 that advance

00:43:12.560 conservative ads.

00:43:15.360 Excellent.

00:43:16.000 Well,

00:43:16.300 ultimately,

00:43:16.980 like you said,

00:43:17.560 I think that

00:43:18.120 the administration

00:43:18.700 is taking a good tack

00:43:20.280 with this,

00:43:20.860 maybe slower

00:43:21.440 than some would like,

00:43:22.420 but as you said,

00:43:23.160 they're the first ones

00:43:24.000 to really even

00:43:25.160 take many of these steps.

00:43:26.740 So obviously,

00:43:27.220 you have to start somewhere

00:43:28.500 and I think ultimately

00:43:29.700 they are impressive

00:43:31.400 in the way

00:43:31.840 that they have come

00:43:32.600 out the gate,

00:43:33.380 but we will continue

00:43:34.680 to encourage,

00:43:35.600 you know,

00:43:36.360 this action.

00:43:37.220 I think,

00:43:37.700 you know,

00:43:37.880 a lot of people

00:43:38.480 want to spur it on

00:43:39.760 by constantly pushing

00:43:40.900 the boundary

00:43:41.380 and that's fair enough.

00:43:42.640 I think there's

00:43:43.060 always a certain level

00:43:44.380 of holding your

00:43:45.360 politicians feet

00:43:46.280 to the fire,

00:43:47.240 keeping them honest

00:43:47.940 making sure

00:43:48.640 they're following through,

00:43:49.600 but also remember

00:43:50.440 you encourage people

00:43:51.420 by praising them

00:43:52.360 and telling them,

00:43:53.100 hey,

00:43:53.200 we love to see this,

00:43:54.140 we want to see more.

00:43:55.260 Great to see that

00:43:55.880 thousand deportations,

00:43:57.260 let's see 10,000,

00:43:58.260 right?

00:43:58.480 Like,

00:43:58.720 you know,

00:43:59.300 we want both.

00:44:00.680 You want carrot and stick.

00:44:02.000 It doesn't have to be

00:44:02.740 one or the other

00:44:03.960 and ultimately,

00:44:04.480 I do hope

00:44:05.280 that we are going

00:44:06.380 to see an expansion

00:44:07.280 of the ability

00:44:09.020 to kind of pressure

00:44:10.060 these different universities

00:44:11.640 into acting correctly

00:44:13.320 and these rogue judges

00:44:14.880 into understanding

00:44:16.600 that the executive

00:44:17.500 is a real position

00:44:18.460 and you can't just

00:44:19.420 decide that he doesn't

00:44:20.900 get to do anything

00:44:21.780 because you don't

00:44:23.000 like his politics.

00:44:23.780 He was mean to someone

00:44:24.580 you like on Twitter.

00:44:26.300 All right,

00:44:26.780 Will,

00:44:27.040 we have a few questions

00:44:28.260 from the audience

00:44:29.180 real quick.

00:44:30.020 Before we go to the

00:44:30.940 questions of the people,

00:44:32.260 can you tell people

00:44:33.000 where to find

00:44:33.580 what you're doing?

00:44:34.180 Yes,

00:44:35.400 you can find me

00:44:36.260 personally at

00:44:36.940 Will Chamberlain

00:44:37.660 on X

00:44:38.740 and then go to

00:44:40.820 a3paaction.org

00:44:42.240 if you want to see

00:44:42.700 what my organization

00:44:43.220 is doing.

00:44:44.020 That's a place

00:44:44.400 where we make it

00:44:45.100 extremely easy

00:44:45.860 for you to

00:44:46.760 contact your specific

00:44:48.680 senator to engage

00:44:49.980 on various issues.

00:44:51.300 We were doing this

00:44:51.820 throughout the

00:44:52.240 confirmation process,

00:44:54.240 bullying senators

00:44:55.760 like crazy to vote

00:44:56.900 to confirm

00:44:57.300 the president's nominees

00:44:58.200 and to some degree

00:45:00.060 of success too.

00:45:00.880 I think you started

00:45:01.880 at the very beginning

00:45:02.620 of the process,

00:45:03.180 we were seeing a lot

00:45:03.780 of senators

00:45:04.200 hem and haw

00:45:04.720 about certain nominees

00:45:05.540 and by the end

00:45:06.200 we got them all confirmed

00:45:07.740 and there's a decent

00:45:08.860 amount of reporting

00:45:09.400 suggesting that

00:45:10.240 a lot of Article 3

00:45:11.500 projects were in particular

00:45:12.720 had something to do

00:45:13.540 with giving these senators

00:45:14.640 an attitude adjustment.

00:45:15.880 So a3paaction.org

00:45:17.580 check out our campaigns

00:45:18.760 to bully your legislators

00:45:20.720 to do what they

00:45:21.560 should be doing.

00:45:22.820 There you go,

00:45:23.180 feet to the fire.

00:45:24.300 All right,

00:45:24.980 Robert Winesfield says

00:45:26.180 if right wingers

00:45:27.640 were in charge

00:45:28.540 of universities

00:45:29.580 and brazenly

00:45:30.540 wouldn't let in

00:45:31.300 minorities,

00:45:32.260 the left would throw

00:45:32.800 the admin in jail,

00:45:34.480 the left is brazenly

00:45:35.620 defying Trump.

00:45:37.740 So, I mean,

00:45:38.840 there is a fair point.

00:45:40.480 I think that ultimately

00:45:41.960 the road for the left

00:45:44.060 to take serious action

00:45:45.940 on this

00:45:46.320 seems much clearer

00:45:48.580 and easier.

00:45:49.560 They probably would be able

00:45:50.420 to do that

00:45:51.060 in a much easier way

00:45:52.140 if they were just,

00:45:53.040 you know,

00:45:53.180 there was some university

00:45:54.020 out there in fantasy land

00:45:55.400 saying no black students

00:45:56.840 in here,

00:45:57.400 no Hispanic students

00:45:58.340 in here.

00:45:58.800 and yet the right

00:46:00.520 seems to have

00:46:00.980 a much harder time

00:46:02.160 doing this.

00:46:03.420 Is there,

00:46:04.080 I know you spoke

00:46:04.860 a little bit

00:46:05.460 about the judicial avenues

00:46:06.720 and just what was easiest

00:46:07.960 to step in,

00:46:08.840 but do you feel

00:46:09.360 there's a cultural aspect

00:46:10.580 or institutional aspect

00:46:11.700 that makes that process

00:46:13.260 harder for the right?

00:46:15.140 There is.

00:46:15.920 I mean,

00:46:16.040 I think it's also,

00:46:16.840 I mean,

00:46:17.100 this is sort of new,

00:46:18.540 right?

00:46:18.740 We're actually trying

00:46:19.320 to do something

00:46:19.900 fairly new here.

00:46:20.780 We're winning

00:46:21.140 some precedents,

00:46:22.080 but I mean,

00:46:23.540 theoretically,

00:46:23.940 we could try

00:46:24.560 and start bringing

00:46:25.020 criminal prosecutions,

00:46:26.160 but I'd like to see us

00:46:27.080 win a civil case first.

00:46:28.120 That seems like the easiest

00:46:29.020 and most obvious step.

00:46:31.380 You know,

00:46:31.740 once we win a civil case

00:46:32.840 that we can actually fork

00:46:34.060 and get an injunction

00:46:34.880 against the universities,

00:46:36.200 well then,

00:46:37.100 actually,

00:46:37.380 if they don't comply,

00:46:38.020 then it's criminal contempt.

00:46:39.400 So,

00:46:39.980 I think that's the place

00:46:41.560 to start.

00:46:44.020 And I think,

00:46:44.740 you know,

00:46:44.900 we just have to do it.

00:46:46.160 I don't know,

00:46:46.600 in the sense of like,

00:46:47.500 we have to understand

00:46:48.640 that litigation

00:46:49.340 takes some time.

00:46:51.000 The Trump administration

00:46:51.800 is doing the things

00:46:52.680 we would want them to do.

00:46:54.380 If I had a dream list

00:46:55.780 of like,

00:46:56.020 what do I want

00:46:56.580 the administration

00:46:57.040 to be doing

00:46:57.620 to get kickstart

00:46:58.680 at the beginning

00:46:59.520 of the term,

00:47:00.120 they're doing.

00:47:01.060 So,

00:47:02.020 I think that like,

00:47:02.960 yeah,

00:47:03.080 the left has

00:47:03.760 a lot more experience

00:47:04.940 doing this stuff

00:47:05.540 and they have so many

00:47:07.320 institutions built up

00:47:08.380 to engage in these lawsuits

00:47:09.720 and to push these things forward.

00:47:11.680 We just have to appreciate

00:47:12.740 that we are just getting started.

00:47:14.800 Yeah,

00:47:14.920 and the continued

00:47:15.800 understanding

00:47:16.740 that those institutions

00:47:17.900 need to be built

00:47:18.740 and funded and staffed

00:47:20.380 is a critical part of this.

00:47:21.840 It's easy to say,

00:47:22.860 oh,

00:47:23.020 why isn't the Trump administration

00:47:24.020 doing what I want to do?

00:47:25.380 Why isn't it doing?

00:47:26.360 Okay,

00:47:26.620 great.

00:47:27.340 Have you donated

00:47:28.080 to an institution

00:47:29.420 that is suing

00:47:30.840 the kind of people

00:47:31.560 who are doing

00:47:32.320 the things you don't like?

00:47:33.740 Are you encouraging

00:47:34.780 talented people

00:47:35.960 you know

00:47:36.440 to go into these fields?

00:47:37.940 Are you helping

00:47:38.700 to organize?

00:47:39.400 I mean,

00:47:39.660 I understand

00:47:40.120 that not every single person

00:47:41.440 is going to be

00:47:42.120 politically active

00:47:42.760 in these areas,

00:47:43.300 but for the people

00:47:44.740 who have the money,

00:47:45.720 for the people

00:47:46.080 who have the connections,

00:47:47.120 people who have the time,

00:47:48.460 make the investment.

00:47:49.320 Don't just complain.

00:47:50.120 Put your quarter

00:47:52.760 on the counter there

00:47:54.720 and actually make

00:47:55.300 something happen.

00:47:56.860 Let's see here.

00:47:58.480 Posmo says,

00:47:59.640 Oren,

00:48:00.200 the Constitution

00:48:00.740 is the most clearly written

00:48:01.980 and easily understood

00:48:03.180 legal document in history.

00:48:04.540 It's less just framing

00:48:05.320 to say

00:48:05.800 it's intentionally ambiguous.

00:48:08.640 Sorry, man.

00:48:09.700 I don't think that's true.

00:48:11.640 And to be clear,

00:48:13.060 intentionally ambiguous

00:48:13.980 is the wrong way

00:48:14.800 to phrase this.

00:48:16.540 Saying that the founders

00:48:18.060 understood

00:48:18.740 that the world

00:48:19.700 would not be exactly

00:48:20.820 the same for a thousand years

00:48:22.480 isn't a leftist thing.

00:48:24.160 That's not like

00:48:24.680 a leftist framing.

00:48:25.880 Understanding that

00:48:26.560 they were wise

00:48:27.300 and that they knew

00:48:28.240 that ultimately

00:48:28.920 governments and people

00:48:29.840 will change,

00:48:30.840 that's not a left-wing

00:48:31.760 understanding.

00:48:32.320 That's actually

00:48:32.880 very right-wing.

00:48:33.820 If you'd like to read

00:48:34.340 Joseph De Maestra

00:48:35.120 and all of his thoughts

00:48:36.500 about constitutions,

00:48:38.000 he is extremely reactionary

00:48:39.880 and makes exactly this point.

00:48:41.680 So I don't think

00:48:42.780 it's leftist at all

00:48:43.680 to point this out.

00:48:44.740 That doesn't mean

00:48:45.320 that every word

00:48:46.120 written down

00:48:46.600 is meaningless

00:48:47.320 and constantly open

00:48:48.880 to whatever interpretation

00:48:49.780 you like.

00:48:50.780 But what I want

00:48:51.380 conservatives to start

00:48:52.260 thinking about

00:48:52.960 is the fact

00:48:53.540 that these things

00:48:54.180 are interpreted

00:48:55.120 in the lights

00:48:55.660 of traditions.

00:48:56.600 We like to talk

00:48:57.360 about traditions,

00:48:57.900 but we don't like

00:48:58.520 to do a lot

00:48:59.060 about maintaining them

00:49:00.200 or applying them.

00:49:01.480 And if you don't

00:49:02.020 grasp that concept,

00:49:03.340 if you don't grasp

00:49:04.020 that as a key part

00:49:05.280 of the foundation

00:49:06.200 of all law,

00:49:07.180 including our constitution,

00:49:08.700 then you're fighting

00:49:09.420 with one arm

00:49:09.880 behind your back

00:49:10.520 because you just

00:49:11.100 don't understand

00:49:11.820 the basic nature

00:49:12.920 of how these things

00:49:13.580 come together.

00:49:14.080 Yeah,

00:49:15.400 so I'll just read

00:49:16.180 one example

00:49:16.860 of a very,

00:49:17.880 very ambiguous

00:49:18.560 clause in our constitution.

00:49:20.540 The privileges

00:49:20.920 and immunities clause

00:49:22.220 states that

00:49:23.100 the citizens

00:49:23.660 of each state

00:49:24.240 shall be entitled

00:49:24.820 to all privileges

00:49:26.000 and immunities

00:49:26.660 of citizens

00:49:27.220 in the several states.

00:49:28.660 What does that mean?

00:49:29.960 Right?

00:49:30.080 Like, that doesn't

00:49:30.980 have an obvious definition.

00:49:32.860 Privileges and immunities

00:49:33.660 can be unbelievably

00:49:34.540 broad or unbelievably narrow.

00:49:36.440 And scholars have,

00:49:37.540 there's enormous scholarly

00:49:38.460 debate about what

00:49:39.140 the hell this means

00:49:39.860 or is it even

00:49:40.480 operational?

00:49:41.720 I mean, Randy Barnett

00:49:42.900 has a pretty broad idea

00:49:44.060 of what it should mean

00:49:45.260 and therefore

00:49:45.780 constraining what states

00:49:47.180 can do.

00:49:48.040 I think under

00:49:49.540 the Supreme Court,

00:49:50.340 it's basically limited

00:49:51.240 to things like

00:49:52.020 you're not allowed

00:49:52.920 to discriminate

00:49:53.440 against out-of-state

00:49:54.340 residents in terms of,

00:49:55.640 and you're not allowed

00:49:56.060 to bar them

00:49:56.580 from entering your state,

00:49:57.460 for example.

00:49:58.560 But that had to be

00:50:00.080 decided by judges.

00:50:00.860 That wasn't just

00:50:01.360 on its face obvious

00:50:02.280 on the basis

00:50:02.800 of the constitutional text.

00:50:04.600 So, you know,

00:50:05.960 there are plenty of places

00:50:06.840 where the drafters

00:50:07.880 did a great job

00:50:08.600 in terms of writing

00:50:09.340 something that's

00:50:09.900 actually quite clear

00:50:10.720 and has been understood

00:50:11.600 pretty well over

00:50:12.320 the course of time.

00:50:13.480 In other cases

00:50:14.080 where they just kind of,

00:50:15.200 I mean, you know,

00:50:16.320 this law is a human enterprise

00:50:18.240 and not every clause

00:50:19.780 is going to be

00:50:20.220 perfectly well written.

00:50:21.540 Yeah, and like I said,

00:50:22.460 even if it was,

00:50:23.400 that still doesn't

00:50:24.280 ultimately protect it

00:50:25.320 because all clauses,

00:50:26.480 even when well

00:50:27.440 written, again,

00:50:28.220 have to be evaluated

00:50:29.220 in the light of the tradition

00:50:30.620 and the people

00:50:31.480 living at that time.

00:50:32.580 So the thing

00:50:33.800 I really want people

00:50:34.640 to get away from

00:50:35.540 is this idea

00:50:36.340 that you can write down

00:50:37.820 an ironclad argument

00:50:38.960 and then the left

00:50:39.800 has to do it

00:50:40.780 because you have

00:50:41.640 the piece of paper.

00:50:42.660 That's just not

00:50:43.540 how law works.

00:50:44.520 That's not how power works.

00:50:45.960 That's not how politics works.

00:50:47.720 There is no escape

00:50:49.040 from having to win.

00:50:51.300 There's just no substitute

00:50:52.600 for victory.

00:50:53.900 You have to win.

00:50:55.200 You have to be vigilant.

00:50:56.060 You have to put in the work.

00:50:57.140 And sorry,

00:50:58.060 no matter how well

00:50:59.200 you craft a constitution,

00:51:00.860 it never does that job for you.

00:51:02.880 That doesn't mean

00:51:03.260 the constitution isn't great.

00:51:04.320 That doesn't mean

00:51:04.800 the framers aren't great.

00:51:06.160 It just means

00:51:07.080 you don't understand

00:51:08.380 how law works.

00:51:09.740 And that's okay,

00:51:10.820 but it's time for us

00:51:12.040 to grow up

00:51:12.400 and figure this out

00:51:13.080 because if you don't,

00:51:14.580 then we end up

00:51:15.000 in the situation

00:51:15.520 we're in now

00:51:16.180 and it's not great.

00:51:17.720 All right, guys,

00:51:18.220 we're going to wrap this up.

00:51:19.340 Thank you so much,

00:51:20.000 Will, for coming on.

00:51:21.320 Please make sure

00:51:21.820 to check him out

00:51:22.500 on Twitter

00:51:23.080 and everywhere else.

00:51:23.920 He is doing stuff.

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00:51:26.860 on this channel,

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00:51:54.300 The Atlantic thought

00:51:55.040 that they would insult us

00:51:56.000 by calling us

00:51:56.640 Brutal Americans,

00:51:57.500 but I think that one

00:51:58.660 was a poor choice by them.

00:52:01.220 I think that's

00:52:01.560 pretty good branding.

00:52:02.400 So if you'd like

00:52:03.120 to check that out,

00:52:03.840 you can head over there

00:52:04.780 and pick that up.

00:52:05.700 Thank you, everybody,

00:52:06.320 for watching.

00:52:06.860 And as always,

00:52:07.400 I will talk to you

00:52:08.300 next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - March 26, 2025

Universities Defy Supreme Court on Affirmative Action ｜ Guest： Will Chamberlain ｜ 3⧸26⧸25

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