The Auron MacIntyre Show - Vivek Ramaswamy Can't Conserve America ｜ Guest： Michael Clary ｜ 5⧸4⧸26

00:00:00.000 Hey, everybody, how's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon. I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy. Vivek Ramaswamy has made a few faux pas recently that have really broken through, and this has been a serious problem because the man is running in Ohio, a place where you kind of expect a Republican to win, but his numbers seem to be in a little bit of trouble.

00:00:22.360 Vivek is, of course, known for his Christmas crash out with along with Elon Musk.

00:00:28.240 And it's been the scenario where over and over again, Vivek has the talking points.

00:00:32.800 He has the institutional backing.

00:00:34.600 He seems well-spoken and thoughtful, but it seems like he just keeps clashing with American

00:00:39.540 culture and doesn't quite understand why he's not resonating with many GOP voters.

00:00:45.440 A man who is a preacher out of Kentucky, Michael Clary, wrote a fantastic essay on

00:00:51.480 why we keep seeing this phenomenon over and over again. And it was so good. I thought I'd

00:00:55.920 invite him on to discuss it. So, Michael, thank you so much for coming on.

00:00:59.940 My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

00:01:02.180 Absolutely. For people who don't know, can you just give a little bit of background of who you

00:01:06.060 are and what you do and why you ended up writing this essay?

00:01:09.760 Yeah, I'm a Southern Baptist pastor, church planter at Christ the King Church in Fort Thomas,

00:01:15.400 Kentucky. The church was founded in 2010. And over the last 15 years or so, I try to pay attention

00:01:23.520 to cultural trends as it intersects with theology and how I have pastoral work to do and the people

00:01:30.840 that I care about in my church. And so a lot of our people are politically engaged. They pay

00:01:35.800 attention to the horse race and political trends as well. And I've just noticed paying attention

00:01:42.760 to Vivek Ramaswamy, and he's running in our state. I mean, my church is in Kentucky, but I

00:01:49.820 reside in Ohio because the church is just across the river. So I'll be voting in the primary

00:01:55.300 tomorrow for the Republican nomination. And anyway, Vivek Ramaswamy, a lot of people are

00:02:03.940 on the fence about him. They don't know how to feel about him. As you say, he's very polished.

00:02:08.740 He's very smart. He can articulate good policy ideas. He's quick-witted. But there's something

00:02:15.400 that's off about him that is unsettling for people. And so that's why I wrote this piece.

00:02:20.360 The comments that he made about Christianity, where he was sort of schooling a Christian man,

00:02:26.900 that was troubling. And I thought it was a big tell.

00:02:30.520 I agree. And I even have those clips here in case people haven't seen them. So let's go ahead and

00:02:34.600 play uh the clip you were just discussing so people can kind of understand what we're talking

00:02:40.140 about here here is vivek attempting to explain how hinduism and christianity aren't really mutually

00:02:45.320 exclusive and he more or less believes what this gentleman believes very honest it's not a hard

00:02:50.560 question at all so in our faith tradition jesus christ is a son of god i know that is different

00:02:57.440 than saying he's the son of god but that is my view of jesus christ he's got our family do we

00:03:03.000 worship in churches yes we do is that compatible with our faith yes it is one true god in many

00:03:08.840 forms so that's different and i understand that is the only way to heaven is through jesus christ

00:03:14.200 i mean i think that that is the path that is a path to heaven is the way we look at it but

00:03:18.240 belief in god is what we say belief in all right so we get some bad theology i think from uh vivek

00:03:24.960 here but he also isn't just saying religious things that are uh misaligned uh let's also hear

00:03:32.160 one of his recent appearances on how he feels about the state he is attempting to run.

00:03:37.380 Talking to a few prospective candidates, I was sitting next to Emily, who asked me what my

00:03:42.740 favorite state was. Was it Ohio, where I'm from? And I said, Ohio's a good state. I can't say it's

00:03:47.520 the best state. She said, I can tell you what's the best state. It's Indiana, where she's from.

00:03:51.860 So it's the cussedness of the Hillsdale student. Now, I know that's a joke. I understand that

00:03:58.820 that's an attempt at humor. But if you're running to be the governor of a state, the easy answer to

00:04:05.620 every question of what's your favorite state, what's the best state, what's the state with the

00:04:09.320 very best, I don't know, crustaceans, whatever it is, the answer is Ohio, right? Like that's

00:04:14.860 politics 101. We'll get to the more important theological doctrines in a moment. But I feel

00:04:22.740 like it would be a miss of me to just avoid this political malpractice why is it hard for vivek to

00:04:30.580 say the state he wants to run and the state that he theoretically aligns with because he was like

00:04:35.660 living there that's not a good state that's not not the best state like what what would compel

00:04:41.300 a person to do that live on stage when they're running to run the state i have no idea it it's

00:04:47.040 really bizarre to to make a joke like that but but so i think what what's vivek there's there's

00:04:53.280 the things that he says which can be very compelling because he's a very powerful and

00:04:57.040 effective speaker and so it's like you're playing poker the tells that it's that gives you a window

00:05:02.680 into what really thinks and what what i sense what a lot of people sense that i've talked to

00:05:08.000 is that who he presents himself may not be who he actually is and and what i'm sensing from him

00:05:14.080 is a bit of an elitist uh way about it it's almost like uh it doesn't matter what state i think is

00:05:20.000 the best i'm here to fix it because i'm smarter than everybody and i've got billions of dollars

00:05:24.640 and i'm very successful and so i'm here to to tell you people what it's like and even the the

00:05:29.600 attitude that he had toward the christian man and the christian man he had kind of a folksy way

00:05:34.240 about it he was an ordinary guy um and he's like here's my view of jesus christ there's one god in

00:05:40.000 many forms and the the finger point that kind of gave me a sense of like okay you're you're going

00:05:46.000 into teacher mode and you're correcting this man because he thinks that this man is wrong well the

00:05:52.320 majority of at least the christian voters in our state agree with that man and you are correcting

00:05:57.520 him and you're trying to find a way to blend it there's this there's this elitist spirit that is

00:06:02.080 like okay i don't know that i'm getting the real vivek i don't know that there's there's there's a

00:06:05.840 little slight of hand in the way you speak that makes you seem fake uh now maybe he's not fake

00:06:11.600 i don't know him i've never met him but he sure comes across a bit like a greasy used car salesman

00:06:17.120 that makes him hard to trust and at this point we just we just don't know who he is in my opinion

00:06:22.800 i don't know who the man is and it makes him hard to hard to support especially when he's running as

00:06:30.000 a strong conservative in a red state that was running i mean he was running a bit maybe to

00:06:36.820 trump's right he was he was he was trying to flank trump on the right and and now it seems like you

00:06:42.900 know he that there was another crash out that um when he was talking about h1b visa is a christmas

00:06:48.340 crash out right that was a that was a big eye-opener for a lot of people it's like oh like

00:06:53.120 you may not be the conservative that you're presenting yourself to be and i mean that's

00:06:58.420 that's just really alarming when it's we're on the eve of the primary and we need to we need to

00:07:04.560 know who this man is and his base is not really fired up about him yeah i think that's a critical

00:07:10.180 insight because you're you know if you talk to the average kind of fox news consuming maybe even

00:07:18.280 talk radio consuming especially boomer conservatives they really like vivek like they they see him as

00:07:24.180 somebody who, you know, is talking about small government and personal responsibility and the

00:07:28.380 can-do attitude of the hardworking American. And this is what makes us who we are. But more and

00:07:34.320 more, people are asking questions about who we are as American. Is hard work really what makes

00:07:39.960 you American? I mean, there are a lot of hardworking people in China, man. Like, I'm

00:07:43.660 very sure about that truth. But I don't know that that makes them American. I don't think that that

00:07:48.240 is sufficient. Is it necessary? Perhaps, but not sufficient. And I think that's the issue with

00:07:54.160 Vivek as you're pointing out here he has all of these talking points these classic American GOP

00:08:00.620 talking points that people recognize and I think especially and you know I'll say this you don't

00:08:06.980 have to say this but I think a lot of conservatives feel better when a brown man says those words

00:08:13.440 because now it's okay for them look a guy who has a different skin color from me also believes in

00:08:19.500 these things so it's not my white supremacy it's not my racism it's not that i prefer white people

00:08:24.880 or something like that because look there are other people who also believe in these things and

00:08:29.040 look i am the first to say clarence thomas is way better than most americans he is literally holding

00:08:35.800 the constitutional order aloft on his shoulders so this is not to say that obviously like some

00:08:41.120 guy like clarence thomas is not an amazing american but it really helps when a person with

00:08:46.600 a foreign look to them tells a conservative i believe in the things that you believe in because

00:08:52.140 it really makes them feel more comfortable it relieves it leaves a lot of pressure they almost

00:08:55.800 want to jump to vote for them you know we even felt this i think a little bit during the obama

00:08:59.760 election where people who would never vote for someone who had obama's opinions were like but

00:09:04.980 am i really going to be the first person to you know the one to not vote for the first black man

00:09:09.540 is that is that who i want to be and you know that will drive you know some of that but under

00:09:14.020 the surface when we look at vivac we see this discussion on and on and i think the christmas

00:09:18.600 crash out as you're pointing to is a is a great example of this where he has said many of the

00:09:23.480 great things but then you get to a moment where he talks about what it actually looks like to

00:09:29.060 apply his policies what it really looks like to live in his world and his first assertion is well

00:09:35.140 to be clear people like me immigrants who worked hard and come from different culture we do better

00:09:41.300 than normal americans you guys are watching saved by the bell and playing football well we're

00:09:45.700 memorizing spelling words and that's why we're just better people than you and it does start to

00:09:50.960 feel like this is a guy saying like well obviously i should be in charge of you people right and and

00:09:55.820 that's where you start to get that feeling that tingling in the back of your spine you know

00:10:00.160 because i've written a book about the managerial elite called the total state and one of my main

00:10:04.820 points in this was these people tend to see the peoples they rule as interchangeable once they've

00:10:10.460 gotten to this elevated status of i speak the right way i have the right credentials i write i

00:10:15.900 move in the right circles i shake the right hands then whoever whatever outpost they get stationed

00:10:21.700 to it's like it's it's like a british colonial officer right like yeah you might be running

00:10:26.380 mumbai but that's not like your culture and maybe you care about these people in the sense

00:10:31.560 of like you got to keep your job and keep you know the home base happy but you're not here to serve

00:10:36.860 them you're making sure they serve your interests and when people watch vivek talk and he can't say

00:10:42.740 that he likes his own state and he can't he can't even subdue his foreign religion to a man who is

00:10:51.420 clearly and i want to be really clear here i don't care how folksy that guy is he's speaking way more

00:10:56.440 truth than viveka is like he might not be more sophisticated but he is 100 correct and vivek may

00:11:02.760 be sophisticated, but he's 100% wrong. And when you have a guy like that in that moment who kind

00:11:08.340 of shows you that actually, even though I'm trying to act like our cultures are compatible,

00:11:14.800 and I've somewhat assimilated to your land, at the end of the day, I still hold blasphemous

00:11:20.720 beliefs. And not only do they hold those, but I'm going to lecture you about them because clearly

00:11:25.060 you just don't get it the way I do. Yeah. The statements that he made, he was making

00:11:32.000 theological claims to a christian and the thing that there are many things that troubled me about

00:11:38.560 it but one of the things that stood out is that he he's smart enough to know he has to obscure

00:11:43.840 what he really believes he can't say i'm a hindu and here's what hindus believe he he used this

00:11:50.560 sophistry to say in our faith tradition so he doesn't even mention hinduism he just calls it

00:11:56.240 a faith tradition which is vague uh political speak for uh vaguely religious person and he

00:12:03.520 says jesus christ is a son of god and not the son of god and so that's a the the what he's doing

00:12:11.840 there is there is an absorption mechanism within hinduism where it just sort of gobbles up uh

00:12:17.280 various deities within the pantheon and so it it enables them to show some bit of respect to jesus

00:12:24.160 Christ. Hey, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Jesus Christ is a divine figure. He's a great teacher.

00:12:30.140 Mahatma Gandhi did the same thing whenever he was weaponizing the Sermon on the Mount to

00:12:35.340 advance his own political aims. Vivek Ramaswamy is doing the same thing here by saying,

00:12:42.380 he's saying Jesus Christ is part of our Hindu pantheon, and so he's absorbing Christianity

00:12:46.780 within his own worldview. And sure, he has brown skin, and sure, conservatives may like it whenever

00:12:52.860 a brown man says something that we agree with but what what i'm seeing here is like there's

00:12:57.260 there is a worldview that he's representing that is not compatible but he says it is

00:13:03.020 and he's he and even said is this compatible with our faith yes it is one true god in many forms

00:13:08.060 and i would say it's absolutely not compatible in any way with christianity it is a different

00:13:13.340 worldview but you could at least respect somebody that says i reject jesus christ i don't think

00:13:19.180 that he is who he says he is that that's somebody who is speaking plainly and you kind of deal with

00:13:24.620 them on their own terms but to say that jesus christ is a son of god uh but not the son of

00:13:30.220 god it sounds like you're trying to cozy up to christians and use some of their language in a

00:13:34.940 way that can manipulate them into being charmed by your articulate ability to speak and and it

00:13:43.020 sounds close enough to where you know a casual observer may not notice what's happening where

00:13:48.460 Jesus Christ has just been subordinated and absorbed into the Hindu faith, put alongside Vishnu and various other Hindu gods.

00:13:57.580 He's been demoted from his supreme status as Lord and creator of all.

00:14:02.160 And then he says, like, you know, but I'm a conservative and I can represent your state and I can run our government as a conservative, which begs the question, what are you capable of conserving?

00:14:14.640 That was the question that I posed in my piece. Sure, he might be able to conserve some of the

00:14:21.260 fruits of limited government and Reagan-era talking points, but he has severed the root

00:14:30.420 from the fruit, and it is the root of Jesus Christ and the Christian faith and a belief

00:14:35.140 in the scriptures that produced the society that now needs to be conserved. And as you pointed out,

00:14:40.540 younger people are, that's what they're asking. They're, they're thinking more deeply about what

00:14:45.840 does it mean to be an American? And I've heard you talk many times about, you can't just get

00:14:49.720 off the boat, touch the magic dirt and be an American. There are, there's a people, there

00:14:54.260 are traditions, there's a worldview, there's, there's a whole way of life that informs who we

00:14:58.720 are as Americans. And you can't just say, well, because you've got the paperwork and you now live

00:15:04.820 here, or you were born here, but you have immigrant parents that you now have all of those

00:15:09.860 traditions and all of that worldview in place and you are qualified to run our government and to

00:15:15.100 conserve quote unquote who we are you don't know who we are it's obvious that he doesn't realize

00:15:21.020 that what he is saying to this man is deeply offensive um and it's it's just another political

00:15:27.580 talking point it is but that's that's what reagan era you know conservatism of our parents generation

00:15:33.020 goddess it was this we want to conserve this this uh broadly liberal pluralistic

00:15:41.180 society without any explicit hierarchy that privileges christianity as the one true faith

00:15:47.900 that is the the operating system we're all living under um vivek doesn't know that i don't know

00:15:53.660 perhaps if if he knows it he certainly doesn't act and speak like he knows this and understands it

00:15:58.540 And yet we are supposed to accept him as a conservative.

00:16:02.620 And I don't know what he's capable of conserving if this is his worldview.

00:16:07.720 All right.

00:16:08.280 So there's so much important there that we need to pull apart here.

00:16:11.120 So I want to go a little bit at a time because you packed a lot into that response.

00:16:15.460 So the first thing is that Vivek is kind of smuggling this idea that his faith is compatible with Christianity into his language.

00:16:25.600 As you say, he often refers to the God we believe in, our shared faith in a creator, right?

00:16:32.120 Like those vague terms.

00:16:33.720 But then when you drill down, it turns out actually we believe very, very different things about creators and what the universe is and what the truth is.

00:16:43.700 And simply believing in a God is not sufficient.

00:16:46.660 Again, necessary, but not sufficient.

00:16:49.060 And we see a lot of this, to be fair.

00:16:51.020 Like we see this attempt to smuggle Hinduism in as compatible with Christianity.

00:16:56.080 We're seeing a lot of this with Islam right now.

00:16:58.560 A lot of people are saying, oh, well, but they they revere Jesus as a prophet and they, you know, they honor him and all these things.

00:17:05.720 And, you know, as if that then makes Islam somehow compatible with Christianity, despite hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of brutal wars that show exactly the opposite.

00:17:15.740 and to be fair this is also a long you know kind of maneuver when it comes to the phrase judeo

00:17:21.560 christian that's a little different because obviously there's scriptural continuity at some

00:17:25.400 level but obviously if i went to ben shapiro and said well you're just basically a christian

00:17:29.700 i don't feel like he would take that very well and nor should he right he has a distinct and

00:17:34.100 different faith but for some reason when that's flipped around it's like well christianity is

00:17:37.640 basically just judaism i was like well well no like absolutely there's a whole thing that actually

00:17:43.340 like changes a massive amount of judaism to the point where several books of the new testament

00:17:48.200 had to be written to explain exactly how and why the faith was radically altered forever

00:17:53.020 to become christianity and yet we act as if these are just the same thing and in every one of these

00:17:58.660 scenarios it feels like a lot of the motivation is i want to bring another country's interests

00:18:05.180 or i want to bring another culture's influence into the country and so whether it's hinduism

00:18:10.640 or judaism or islam it's just like christianity today because we need it to be tomorrow we'll

00:18:16.840 make it very clear that it wasn't christianity we're very different and we need to keep our

00:18:20.500 own identity separate and not conform to your identity and not accept christ or any of those

00:18:25.240 things but we happen to be compatible just this minute while you can elect us and we can gain

00:18:30.740 power and so this is a very common uh you know thing that is used over and over again but even

00:18:36.320 deeper about what you said there, I think, is the fact that Vivek doesn't know what he is conserving.

00:18:42.680 He understands he's supposed to be a conservative in some abstract sense, but when it comes to what

00:18:47.560 he should be conserving, he doesn't get it. I mean, he is himself an anchor baby. He is himself

00:18:53.160 a product of the 14th Amendment and birthright citizenship. And so he is technically an American

00:18:59.600 by birth, but it's very clear that there are central aspects of the culture, despite having

00:19:05.140 been born here and lived here his entire life that he simply does not absorb or is not intending to

00:19:10.280 absorb or specifically you know uh gaining off from absorbing and so you have this moment where

00:19:16.800 yeah there's these abstract values of working hard and free market capitalism and you know all you

00:19:21.960 know pulling yourself up by the bootstraps and all these things and he can repeat those things

00:19:26.020 but then when you go back and say okay but why is the protestant work ethic actually central

00:19:30.820 to the united states is it just the work no it turns out it's actually the protestantism like

00:19:36.360 that informs the work you actually need to follow the spiritual uh you know underpinnings of the

00:19:42.240 of the civilization the foundation on which all of these things is built without that substrate

00:19:47.380 you don't get the rest of the culture but vivek is thoroughly liberal and modern in the sense that

00:19:52.280 he really believes that if you just write the words down on a piece of paper then the people

00:19:57.200 below those words will suddenly start acting in accordance with them when it's actually very much

00:20:02.100 the reverse, that constitutions are reflecting who we are and where we came from. And if you can't

00:20:07.660 understand that, if you haven't taken the time to learn that, if you haven't converted to the

00:20:11.460 religion, if you haven't understood the people at a basic level to where you know you say, yes,

00:20:16.400 this is my favorite state when someone asks that question, then I think you're fundamentally

00:20:20.160 incapable of conserving what actually matters. You can conserve the talking points, but can you

00:20:25.040 conserve the people can you conserve the culture and the faith that fed them and formed them and

00:20:29.280 created the talking points later on that you seem to think are more valuable oh yeah there you know

00:20:37.040 the old joke that um republicans are good at just conserving the most recent liberal victory and

00:20:43.720 that i've seen that to be the case my whole life where conservative basically i mean the word

00:20:50.600 conservative obviously has a reference to something from the past that you think needs

00:20:54.640 to be carried on and conserved. And so anything that's in the past then is fair game and qualifies

00:21:01.880 as something that a conservative can conserve. And the problem that we're seeing now is that

00:21:07.540 the things that have been conserved over the last 50 to 70 years are that we've severed the fruit

00:21:15.940 from the root. It is like, what are the fruits of Christianity? And let's just hold on to those

00:21:20.380 things without knowing where they came from you you pointed out where does the protestant work

00:21:25.580 ethic come from what comes from the bible genesis 1 2 and 3 we were made in the image of god and

00:21:30.380 the image of god includes a particular task of filling and subduing the earth that is a world

00:21:36.140 view that animates and gives life to the the american spirit that was birthed from the christian

00:21:42.620 faith christianity built the west but let if you if you cut that out and you don't even understand

00:21:48.620 it or where it know where it came from then really you're just conserving a few policy preferences

00:21:53.900 and the thing is is like if if i were to just read a a list of that vivek ramaswamy's policy

00:21:59.660 preferences there's probably a lot to like there um but but you know if but that we if we don't

00:22:06.060 conserve the root then we're merely preserving the chaos that got us to where we are right now

00:22:12.780 So, you know, a good tax policy or smart or smaller government or, you know, originalist, you know, reading of the Constitution, these sort of conservative ideas are good ideas, but they come from somewhere.

00:22:28.780 They're not just these atomized, random policies floating around in the ether that Republicans happen to gobble up and paste them all together with duct tape and say, here's conservatism.

00:22:39.020 No, it is a comprehensive worldview. So we can't just go back 50 years and say, OK, let's conserve that. Let's conserve whatever Ronald Reagan believed back in 1980. We have to go much, much further back. This is what needs to be done to truly conserve our American society is it's a 50 year plus project of restoration to where we have.

00:23:00.140 It's a multi-generational project of rebuilding what we've lost, and you cannot restore a Christian civilization with a Hindu worldview that subordinates Christianity and does not respect and honor the traditions that it gave birth to.

00:23:18.720 And so he's obscuring those things.

00:23:23.160 And so what he does with Christianity, I think, is likely to be the same thing that he would do politically.

00:23:28.020 so with christianity he says okay i want to take your christian tradition and i want to absorb it

00:23:33.560 into my hindu worldview and i want to assign it to a lesser status and then my presentation of

00:23:39.220 that worldview will be the controlling paradigm of this religious dialogue what's to say that

00:23:45.300 he would not i think he probably does the exact same thing politically um he doesn't see politics

00:23:51.060 as a fruit of this worldview but it is just something that okay let's absorb that into

00:23:55.880 my pluralistic worldview and hinduism is pluralistic because it's polytheistic

00:23:59.780 and then let's subordinate that and then that was the christmas crash out it is this

00:24:05.420 if you just touch the magic dirt you're an american i'm like that's what a hindu would say

00:24:09.920 of course he's going to say that because that favors them it doesn't favor the people that

00:24:13.700 built the society well and it's also so important when we look at these things that as you say we

00:24:20.680 understand them not just as

00:24:22.520 some floating

00:24:24.720 abstract set of principles, but

00:24:26.580 lived traditions that we are

00:24:28.560 continuing. What we're conserving is

00:24:30.660 not just words on paper. It's not just

00:24:32.680 talking points. It's not something that can be

00:24:34.580 easily wrapped up and absorbed into Hinduism

00:24:36.780 because it has to be something that

00:24:38.680 is real or organic and tied

00:24:40.740 to who we are. I think Aristotle is

00:24:42.680 right about civilizations and what

00:24:44.700 we owe to each other and the continuity

00:24:46.560 of our identity. And part of that

00:24:48.800 is recognizing that

00:24:50.680 Your faith is also shaped by who you are and you are shaped by your faith.

00:24:56.180 So, for instance, one of the beautiful things about Christianity is it manifests itself across many different countries and can adapt itself and be a vibrant part of those cultures and fit into those cultures, but also still be Christianity.

00:25:10.980 It doesn't have to give up its Christianity in order to become a vibrant part of the people who are adopting it.

00:25:18.460 And that's why, for instance, the Byzantines could have been extremely Christian people and believe in a very different form of government, have a very different way of life than we do.

00:25:27.420 Right. So even saying that it's a Christian tradition is very true. Right. But we are we don't represent we don't resemble the Byzantine Empire, even though they were probably more dedicated Christians than we were at some point.

00:25:39.940 Right. And so, you know, you have to remember that the Christianity is critical, but it's also the way that that Christianity has been particularly practiced inside your culture.

00:25:48.860 Now, one of the beautiful things about America, one of the things that the First Amendment was actually meant to do was to create this detente between like different Protestant denominations saying, look, you don't have to go to war with the other each other.

00:26:01.520 We're all Christian enough to still create this like pan Protestant understanding inside the United States.

00:26:09.220 And it might be more focused in one area. One, you know, one area might be, you know, more Puritan, why another area, you know, might be more Anglican, these kind of things. But ultimately, we can all operate closely enough to kind of hold a civilization together.

00:26:23.860 But as but we look at, you know, the history of Christianity and even holding different Christian sects together inside the same, you know, state has been difficult at times. Obviously, we have famous wars between Protestants and Catholics and all these different groups.

00:26:38.440 but then you start adding completely foreign religions hinduism and islam and buddhism and

00:26:44.680 all these things and they don't even have a hope of being compatible but we're still acting as if

00:26:50.160 the compatibility is like this universal american principle when actually the genius of our founders

00:26:55.980 was making it pan protestant and yeah we we gave the catholics maryland and they stuck around

00:27:01.420 they've been around here we can let them in the door as long as they don't try to run for office

00:27:04.880 or anything you know they don't you know when i'm getting too comfortable but you know that was

00:27:08.760 really the attitude of early america for a long time and so the idea that just like plugging

00:27:14.240 someone like vivek ramaswamy into the american fabric and expecting him to continue that tradition

00:27:19.240 just as easily as someone whose family has been here for hundreds of years it would be unthinkable

00:27:24.900 in any other society including most christian societies throughout history but somehow it's

00:27:29.460 become like just like the basic american uh you know kind of more civil uh theology right like

00:27:35.700 this is this is our civic theology of how uh humans are constructed and it's just i think

00:27:40.720 it's just bad anthropology i think it just ignores truth about the way humans live their lives and

00:27:44.600 also the truth of christ yeah yeah so one of the other things that prompted the piece that i wrote

00:27:51.680 was my travels to india uh where i did um you know some mission work there but i've i've done

00:27:58.020 mission work you know and i think five different continents i mean i've been all around the world

00:28:02.820 um and there there is a stark difference between what i observed in latin america which has a heavy

00:28:09.660 catholic influence and uh eastern europe in um i was in slovakia the czech republic uh austria

00:28:17.240 around in that area and then when i went to india it was it was very vastly different and it's not

00:28:23.920 just you know the people have darker skin i was like the the cultures of latin america that i was

00:28:30.640 in there's enough of a memory of christianity that that kind of informs the way of life there

00:28:36.400 as well as in eastern europe there's enough of christianity there that even though they've

00:28:39.920 rejected it they still have a lot of inertia of christianity that can still give them fuel

00:28:45.680 as they move forward because it just it formed the foundational layer but when i went to india

00:28:50.800 which was much more recent um it was it was very shocking to the system um because i you got to see

00:28:58.240 even visual depictions of the gods that they worship i mean there's you know the more famous

00:29:03.600 images of the blue god that's got the multiple arms um and the face painting and you know there's

00:29:09.280 this it is a very strange sort of uh you know something that i'm not familiar just to see the

00:29:16.480 the culture of it but it's not just the the images but it is the kind of culture that it produced

00:29:22.900 and the caste system in india that uh has been part of their civilization for for centuries is

00:29:29.900 is a horrific way for people to live it does not dignify human beings there's it is you you can see

00:29:36.780 if you travel to these places these are fundamentally incompatible worldviews that you

00:29:41.440 cannot just import into america and expect it to blend in um and and as you say like you know the

00:29:47.660 framing of the constitution understood that freedom of religion there was it's christian

00:29:52.780 religion it is uh even predominantly protestant christian religion that's what they had in mind

00:29:58.080 in no way would they have in mind that somebody that worships a you know blue multiple limbed uh

00:30:05.500 kind of deity from hinduism that that's what they were trying to accommodate even such that they

00:30:12.000 would run for public office and be able to run an entire state that was far from what they had in

00:30:16.840 mind and we're fools if we think that that we can just blend these two together stick them in

00:30:23.160 stick them side by side and not have any consequences there are going to be consequences

00:30:27.380 yeah i think that's absolutely right and again a great observation you know there's a lot of

00:30:33.720 people who are you know sharing these videos now of indian diasporas creating class like meetups

00:30:43.220 like oh here's people from my cast and they're all meeting in this part of texas and they literally

00:30:48.800 drive hours to be to meet a bunch of people from their cast in india in the middle of texas because

00:30:55.620 that's how deeply rooted this culture is like they're not here to escape that culture it's a

00:31:01.140 question if they even can escape that culture if at some level culture is so uh you know

00:31:06.560 inextricable from who we are that very few people have the true ability to adapt and this is why i'm

00:31:11.940 a big believer first in a very long immigration moratorium of many decades in order to help

00:31:16.980 america heal but if we do ever reopen ourselves to immigration it has to be extremely selective

00:31:22.680 because there are very very few people who are truly capable of making that change over time

00:31:28.420 And I think over time is even key to that, you know, Aristotle and Aquinas both kind of remarked on the fact that civilization has to be multigenerational and how you in order to become an immigrant and actually integrate into society and become one with the new tribe.

00:31:45.020 You need several generations to make that really happen before you're part of it.

00:31:48.620 And so I think if immigration exists at all, it should be a near peer thing where we're taking people who are relatively culturally close to us.

00:31:56.480 We bring them in in very small numbers and we make sure that they are not given citizenship rights for many, many years after we get here, perhaps generations, not themselves, but their children or their grandchildren have full citizenship rights.

00:32:11.440 I think that that's a fair way to bring people into the society and make sure that they assimilate while also giving the American people the opportunity to decide who and how many, if any, should be coming in.

00:32:23.020 But what Vivek really kind of represents is the opposite of that. A man who was born in the United States, was American automatically simply because he was on American soil, didn't really adopt the religion, didn't really adopt the culture, didn't really see himself as part of it.

00:32:38.780 And to this day, still draws a line between himself and others in America, seeing himself

00:32:43.600 as like alien and therefore superior in culture.

00:32:47.240 That is a losing system, a system that produces that type of elite and wants to push that

00:32:51.780 type of elite through is dangerous.

00:32:53.620 And as you say, you're going, you're looking at voting in the Republican primary.

00:32:57.140 Now, I think we're in a moment where politics is more or less existential.

00:33:01.160 We can't let the Democrats hold power pretty much anywhere because they will use it to

00:33:04.880 crush us, imprison us and possibly kill us.

00:33:07.280 And I don't say any of that lightly. I'm not trying to scaremonger. I don't think I'm being hyperbolic about this. I think we really are in a very serious scenario. But when you see the GOP putting up candidates like Vivek, we're caught in a catch 22 because the theory of politics, at least Democratic politics, is that you go out and if you don't vote for these people, that's a message to them, right? That sends a sign.

00:33:30.680 So if Vivek's a bad candidate and he loses, Republicans will learn a lesson.

00:33:34.980 Well, first, they don't ever seem to learn a lesson.

00:33:37.180 They keep putting up guys like Vivek.

00:33:38.800 We just saw the same thing in Virginia, where they put up a very strange candidate that

00:33:43.180 didn't make any sense in that area.

00:33:44.880 They couldn't just find some normal person who would have been very popular.

00:33:48.400 And it feels like Vivek is the same mistake over and over again.

00:33:50.860 Let's take a minority person.

00:33:52.380 Let's artificially put them to the front of the line, even though no one's going to look

00:33:55.500 at that guy and say, he screams Ohio.

00:33:57.300 And then when he gets into that position, if he loses, well, we blame our own voters for being racist or not turning out and we never learn the lesson. And so we have this like break between the Democratic input, which is supposed to be we show up for you when you do things we like and we stop showing up when you don't because things are so dramatic that one lost election could mean your state gets completely railroaded like Virginia did.

00:34:20.940 all of a sudden it's on demand abortion and sanctuary cities and trans and kids out of

00:34:26.280 nowhere. And those are the issues on the ground. So what do you do as someone who's in that moment

00:34:31.740 looking at that primary saying, here is a man who clearly doesn't represent my culture. He doesn't

00:34:36.660 represent conservatism. He doesn't represent Christianity. But if he loses, who knows what

00:34:42.800 the Democrats are going to put into place? What do you do in a moment like that?

00:34:45.460 man that's a great question i was thinking i'd like to ask you for your counsel on

00:34:50.740 the thing is is like that we we are in uh we we don't have um great options um at the moment

00:35:00.740 there are things that there are so i don't want the the democrat to win amy acton um she was part

00:35:07.060 of the covet lockdowns that really did a lot of harm in our state even though she did it as uh the

00:35:12.740 wing woman of a Republican governor. Um, she, I think, I think that that would be a disaster for

00:35:20.600 her to win. Um, and yet when, if we, if the alternative is Vivek Ramaswamy, I mean, personally,

00:35:26.560 I would, I suppose I would prefer that because it is existential. Um, I think he is wrong. I don't

00:35:32.940 think that he can conserve what we, what most needs conserving, but, um, I think he has pointed

00:35:38.760 more in the direction that i would want him to be and whenever you get to a general election you

00:35:43.260 have to make prudential choices and i i don't i don't think that voting is just going to solve

00:35:47.980 all of our problems we have to address more deeper issues but voting is is still part of the

00:35:53.460 part of the process that we have to live with so with a guy like vivek ramaswamy um i know that

00:35:59.900 a lot of people that are very torn uh because he does not excite um people like me he does not

00:36:05.280 excite the MAGA base anyway. Um, and yet, you know, it seems like there's a good chance that

00:36:10.840 he's going to be the nominee and we're going to have to, we're going to have to choose. Now I do

00:36:15.600 know some people that are, they're ideological purists and they're going to, they're going to

00:36:20.800 vote for, they're going to vote for their heart in the general election and they're going to vote

00:36:24.880 for somebody that doesn't have a prayer. Um, and I, you know, my interest is not to give people

00:36:30.600 voting advice. My interest is mostly to highlight more of the theological and cultural issues at

00:36:37.360 work here because we have to know what it is that we're trying to accomplish. And I think that

00:36:44.180 people are just, right now, they're voting out of fear. They're approaching politics out of fear.

00:36:47.660 They're just like, man, we can't let the Democrats win. And I get that because the Democrats are

00:36:51.700 crazy. They're unhinged radicals. They're mentally ill and insane, many of them. And we can't let

00:36:58.100 them have power because they will use it to crush us. But what do we do whenever we're faced with

00:37:04.120 this Catch-22 kind of situation? I think it is a very difficult decision. And I can't say that I

00:37:10.780 have a solid answer about what's the best way to do. I mean, when it comes down to it, I guess

00:37:15.820 I'll pray and seek counsel and decide before election day. Now, it's interesting because in

00:37:23.800 some ways uh florida and your state are facing very similar scenarios uh byron donald is not as

00:37:32.720 bad as vivek ramaswamy but he's not great uh and so there's a counter candidate here uh james

00:37:38.720 fishback who's also running for governor as a republican and fishback is saying a lot of things

00:37:44.700 that sound good a lot of things uh points that i agree with on a certain level i've had him on my

00:37:53.000 show, um, you know, to have him share his views at the same time, he feels slippery. He doesn't

00:37:59.080 feel solid. He might be saying the right things even more based, not, not just the, the, the GOP

00:38:05.240 talking points, but very, very paleo conservative talking points on, on many issues. But I wonder

00:38:11.700 if he can, if he can be trusted, if he can actually win in a general. And I think you guys

00:38:17.100 are facing a similar scenario, right? There, there is a, there is a GOP primary, right? So

00:38:21.700 that implies there is another candidate.

00:38:23.640 What's going on there?

00:38:24.680 Is there a good alternative, Vivek?

00:38:26.540 Do you think that there's any real choice between the two?

00:38:29.520 Do you think that the alternative candidate has a chance?

00:38:31.740 What's your read on that?

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00:38:51.700 yeah two thoughts about that the alternative candidate uh is casey um i'm not sure how to

00:38:57.540 say is it push or push or something i'm not sure either yeah i have the same trouble

00:39:02.500 so um i've i've i i've seen some of his um some of his posts on x and i know some people that

00:39:09.940 that support him he seems like he is a sincere believer a christian man um that would be based

00:39:15.380 as it were. So that's the one thing. The other thing I want to say, though, is one of the

00:39:22.280 concerns I have on the right is that we do have some momentum. We do have some, we're growing,

00:39:29.920 there's a growing movement. And whenever you have a growing movement, you've got hangers on. And I'm

00:39:34.280 not saying this about Casey or Fishback or anybody else, but you do have hangers on that want to come

00:39:40.000 and they they can ape the talking points they can learn the rhetoric and when you have desperate

00:39:45.780 anxious people that are hungry for change and that are desperate for somebody to give them a voice

00:39:51.460 they can fall prey to um you know grifters and and schemers that that know okay this is the way

00:39:58.960 the wind is blowing right now and so i'm going to learn the talking points and i want to throw

00:40:03.000 some red meat out there and i want to be anti-woke anti-dei anti-tyranny and i want to put a don't

00:40:09.020 tread on me flag up and i want to attract a certain element and i do think that there's an

00:40:14.340 audience for that um my concern is that we need to have a core we need to know what it is that

00:40:19.960 we're trying to accomplish some unifying vision some goal that says this is the animating worldview

00:40:25.840 that i'm fighting for and it's it's rooted in something other than the left is crazy which

00:40:32.020 they're they are crazy and that's that's a plank in a in a solid platform but the left is crazy

00:40:38.020 can't be the only thing you're fighting for um it has to be okay when the left is defeated what are

00:40:44.400 we going to build and we have to know what to build and christianity is what built the society

00:40:50.220 we can't just say well pluralism is going to build this no it's not uh you can't diversity is not our

00:40:57.380 strength um we're not a nation of immigrants in the way that the left usually uses that those

00:41:02.820 talking points and even the gop uses it now it's like we are a nation of of christians and we need

00:41:08.240 to have a foundation of christians that know what it is that build our society and we want to

00:41:12.720 reclaim that and we want to build on that foundation that the hour is late you know it's

00:41:18.780 you know the odds are the odds are rough but but i don't see any other alternative and we can't just

00:41:25.440 be satisfied with based talking points from cosplayers that want to throw red meat out to

00:41:30.600 the frustrated conservatives we need very stable solid men who know who have a core who have

00:41:36.680 ballast and gravitas that know what they're building and to align behind them that that's

00:41:42.300 what we need going forward and as of right now i think the you know it's pretty slim pickings

00:41:47.800 as far as who can lead that charge so i have been going to southern baptist churches my entire life

00:41:55.620 And one of the things that has been going on and that a lot of people have talked about just across all denominations, not just evangelical or Southern Baptist, but it is the rise of male church attendance, seeing young men, especially coming into the church, taking faith more seriously.

00:42:13.980 I think a big part of that is the search for meaning the realization that many of the things that they have been sold by the world are insufficient. They do not fill that God shaped hole in their hearts. That following Christ is the only thing that will ultimately, you know, save them and none of the other things that the world has thrown in front of them.

00:42:33.320 I think another big part of that is a lot of them are looking at the world around them and realizing, hey, I'm not 15 anymore. I can't just sit around and complain about the way the world is. I'm like 35. I'm the age of the people who changed the world. So if I want to know what the world should look like, I guess I better go to the place that tells me what the world should look like.

00:42:54.800 And that's part of why they're in the church. And, you know, the church has, I think, for several decades, again, I think this is true across many denominations, has been increasingly feminized.

00:43:07.100 Women are in charge. Women are the ones showing up. So they're the ones that get put on committees. And then there's pressure for them to lead. And then there's pressure for them to preach.

00:43:14.640 And this is why we see the constant attempt to turn the Southern Baptist Convention into people who approve with female pastorship, among many others, like the Catholics.

00:43:25.080 But the fact that men are stepping into those roles is shifting things.

00:43:28.660 So while I think when you had a more feminine-dominated church, the idea of politics was either don't talk about it at all if you're conservative, or if you're a more progressive church, lean as hard into that as possible and make that kind of your religious function.

00:43:44.640 But under, I think, a more male dominated church, you get a very different look at kind of how leadership works and how the church should interact with politics.

00:43:53.440 Now, I'm I'm far from a theologian.

00:43:55.500 It's always funny when I show up to these more like Christian centric functions, because I am, of course, a proud Christian, but I am not an expert in any way of the faith.

00:44:04.160 I have no deep experience in this.

00:44:06.260 And so I always feel out of place because people want my opinions on this stuff.

00:44:09.060 I'm like, guys, you're the expert here.

00:44:10.560 I'm just the guy who shows up on Sunday and sings the nice songs and praise to Jesus because I'm a real bad person.

00:44:18.100 And so it's one of those scenarios where I always feel awkward meeting out that advice.

00:44:22.480 But that is my read as kind of a shift happening in the church.

00:44:26.380 Am I off base on that?

00:44:27.180 Are you seeing any of that right now?

00:44:28.980 You're not off base at all.

00:44:30.380 I think you're right on target.

00:44:32.720 And anecdotally, so the numbers bear this out with surveys that men are returning to church.

00:44:39.160 um i've seen this anecdotally in my church so um i've heard for years that you know a typical

00:44:47.380 breakdown by gender in any church is like 55 45 60 40 something like that but in my in my church

00:44:53.880 it's always been the opposite we've had a little bit more uh young men um than than women um but

00:45:01.400 i made a good blend of families and and i think that that is because uh men they men are the ones

00:45:07.500 that will do a lot of the building work i mean women will do building work in a different way

00:45:11.660 but it is more through through raising families and caring for children who will who will do the

00:45:17.260 building in the next generation but men are the ones that have the responsibility on their shoulders

00:45:22.140 of like this is the society that i inherit and i need direction and guidance for it and so there

00:45:28.460 is a there there are a lot of men who who are seeking that and churches are doing the same thing

00:45:34.940 that the GOP does with Vivek Ramaswamy. If we have a brown man say it, then that proves we're

00:45:41.080 not racist. And in a church, like, well, if we have women say it, that proves we're not sexist.

00:45:45.460 And we're accused of that all the time. I think if I could give a word of counsel to pastors and

00:45:50.980 church leaders is that if we could just break the stranglehold of the fear of being called a racist

00:45:57.920 or sexist, if we could break the stranglehold that that has on how we perceive ourselves and

00:46:03.040 power that it holds over us then we could do an incredible incredible good because that is

00:46:09.920 that straight out of the left's playbook the identity politics that that keeps us from making

00:46:14.400 really good decisions so a better decision would have been a better candidate than the brown man

00:46:19.360 who is rich that is very very articulate and that's i don't mean that as an insult personally

00:46:24.560 to vivek ramaswamy but i think that that is at least a dynamic in um the gop's support for him

00:46:31.120 and in the in the church it's the same thing if if we could just get over the fact that it's okay

00:46:34.800 if we're going to be uh explicitly male-led and that's not just the figureheads that are called

00:46:41.440 elders but women really run everything behind the scenes but we actually expect men you must rise up

00:46:46.720 you must run this church and be the leaders of your homes leaders in the church leaders in society

00:46:51.360 and that means you have to work hard you have to optimize your time you have to be focused and

00:46:55.200 and dedicated um that what that does is that creates a place for women where they know they're

00:47:01.080 safe and protected because they know that they are not expected to do things that god did not

00:47:05.620 make them to do and there is an appetite for it now in our day and that is one of the most

00:47:10.760 encouraging and exciting things i see happening in modern church life is there's more of an

00:47:16.640 appetite for that kind of message before it would be you know just these dark corners you know maybe

00:47:22.540 at the men's night whenever they're smoking cigars and they'll kind of look around make

00:47:25.900 sure nobody's listening and they'll talk about how important it is for men to lead but now you have

00:47:30.100 more men that are being bold and outspoken and they're pushing back on feminism and they don't

00:47:33.980 care that it offends women because they know this is what is good for men and women and i i think

00:47:39.460 that that is an encouraging sign um in what is happening in the church and i see it happening

00:47:44.560 in the world i basically i would say the dei framework of identity politics deferring to

00:47:50.460 minorities, deferring to women, deferring to gays. It's not dead. It's like the zombie that

00:47:58.760 keeps coming back, but we have scored some victories and we need to keep pushing the issue.

00:48:05.720 But I do see that I think the election of Trump and just the chaos in our society,

00:48:10.220 it's out in the open. People see just how destructive it is. And this is a great opportunity

00:48:15.040 for the church to push back and to really lead with courage and clarity on the issues.

00:48:19.120 yeah it's so amazing over and over again when you look at uh you know obviously as christians

00:48:25.260 we're not supposed to be of the world you know we're supposed to be in the world but we're

00:48:28.460 supposed to be something else and the world will be angry at us we're promised that the world will

00:48:33.280 hate us for following christ now if you happen to be in a nation where your leadership is at least

00:48:38.880 somewhat aligned with your christian values there might be less of that than in others but everyone

00:48:43.260 pretty much even in the more liberal churches will say oh our world is corrupt our country is

00:48:48.100 deeply corrupt and then the minute that you know it's like oh well maybe you should do something

00:48:52.120 different in the world oh no we're not racist we're not sexist like so none of that stuff like

00:48:58.200 when when it comes time to actually do anything other than what the world says you're just going

00:49:03.140 to ignore that entirely you're going to i mean i have sat there and and michael it's amazing because

00:49:08.080 the good part of people people who i think genuinely love god have literally rewritten

00:49:13.020 the bible in front of me to explain why feminists should leave churches and it's just it like the

00:49:17.960 the number of hoops that they have to talk to and well paul was really quoting back some kind of

00:49:23.320 call that was historically tied like just the it's insane like just the you know it's a rube

00:49:29.160 goldberg machine uh you know designed to somehow bring us to the point where of course every every

00:49:34.420 church should be led by a strong independent female who don't need no man like this really

00:49:38.580 like again i get this straight phrase face all the time as if you know there's no contradiction

00:49:43.220 here so i think you're right that this is ultimately clashing and people are recognizing

00:49:47.340 as the fruits of the world around us bear out to be completely poisonous that they need something

00:49:53.280 deeply different and i think that's why you know again very in a much contradiction to what many

00:49:58.620 of these idiots are doing it's been the denominations that are most willing to stand

00:50:03.760 in their tradition i push back against the world that have been the most attractive it comes down

00:50:08.380 to very very devout evangelicals catholics and eastern orthodox because these are the ones that

00:50:14.540 say actually patriarchy is good we're going to maintain this we're going to hold to these

00:50:19.260 doctrines they're going to say things we go say no to now obviously i have my differences with

00:50:24.360 some of these other you know traditions but ultimately that's why those traditions are

00:50:28.980 continuing that's why they're growing that's why they are doing something that matters because they

00:50:34.720 are saying something wildly different they're not willing to background it back down it's the

00:50:38.540 people who turn their church into the world's biggest sunday competition or you know that you

00:50:42.780 know that that end up uh you know capitulating to every new wave of ted talk you know pastored him

00:50:48.820 and and feminism that ultimately just collapse into nothingness because you know i've been to

00:50:53.720 places like delaware and there's all these beautiful churches that don't exist you know

00:50:57.840 down in the strip mall south and in florida down here but they're all those are empty there or

00:51:02.760 they're turned into like some kind of gay community center holding you know queer weddings you know

00:51:07.240 they've been completely hollowed out so the beauty of the building is there the tradition is there

00:51:11.580 but it's completely abandoned and and in these places which might not be opulent and probably

00:51:17.280 could stand up their you know appreciation of god's creation by holding you know nicer services

00:51:22.840 whenever possible ultimately they are still more true to the faith tradition that's why they're

00:51:27.280 continuing and they're surviving while these mainline churches fall into disrepair because

00:51:31.920 there's just something, nothing left for them to say. Yeah, man, there's a lot of great stuff

00:51:38.240 you said there. I think that there's something about conservatives. I think it's true of political

00:51:45.420 conservatives and also spiritual, religious, Christian conservatives. And that is a discomfort

00:51:50.980 with exercising power. We feel as though losing with dignity is the more faithful path. There's

00:51:59.860 say, dignity and defeat. And, you know, well, we secured a moral victory, even though we lost.

00:52:05.100 And that is something liberals, they don't have that scruples about that. They have no problem

00:52:11.300 exercising power and wielding it to great effect. And so I think that what is happening in the

00:52:16.860 evangelical church, if you look at just the Christian landscape on the whole, what is the

00:52:22.520 proportion of our population that would be evangelical Christians compared to other

00:52:26.860 demographics of let's say the lgbtq group or different you know eastern orthodoxy or catholics

00:52:36.180 evangelical christians comprise about 25 of our population and you'll be hard pressed to think of

00:52:43.700 any maybe just a handful prominent powerful evangelical conservative christians i did this

00:52:50.580 the other day i was thinking okay pete hegseth it goes to an evangelical church um but they're

00:52:55.240 they're just we're vastly underrepresented and it is because we have shrunk the the the command of

00:53:03.000 the gospel whenever we think of what it means to be spiritual we we tend to internalize it and

00:53:08.600 limit it merely to the metaphysical interior realm of the heart and the soul to where the most

00:53:15.000 faithful godly christian is somebody who prays a lot and reads their bible a lot and they're nice

00:53:19.080 and they stay out of people's way and they don't make waves and um this is actually interesting

00:53:24.520 you brought this up because i i'm publishing a book called loser theology about about this very

00:53:29.960 subject about asserting righteous power as christians and i think that the loser theology

00:53:35.400 has convinced christians that what is most honoring to god is to lose because jesus lost

00:53:41.240 when he went to the cross therefore we have to lose also and we've lost this robust protestant

00:53:47.400 vision of asserting righteous power to the glory of god that can build societies and so the spiritual

00:53:53.560 man, the man who is truly filled with the Spirit and acts according to what the Spirit would call

00:53:58.300 him to, is not merely a guy who prays a lot and reads the Bible a lot. It is a man who would do

00:54:03.180 those things, and also a man who has no scruples about asserting power, wielding authority to build

00:54:09.780 things, commanding other people to fight evil, to call out sin and wickedness, to be a force for

00:54:17.520 good in society. That is a man that is more in the mold of King David. Now, David obviously had

00:54:22.720 as flaws but that we see david held up as a man after god's own heart and that is the spirit that

00:54:28.880 we need to reclaim as evangelical christians that we have to get over our discomfort with power

00:54:35.440 discomfort with telling people no even in the you know in the feminist conversation be comfortable

00:54:39.840 telling women no we're not going to do that here's what we're going to what we're going to do because

00:54:44.240 you know the the men that god has raised up we're going to we're leading here that that's that's not

00:54:50.480 uh it's not insulting that's not sexist um it is not sexist or excuse me it is not racist for us

00:54:57.280 to say like you know we we have a culture and a heritage as white christians that is worth

00:55:02.400 preserving and we want to seize power uh to and to wield it righteously for for the glory of god

00:55:10.560 that that really is what sets apart evangelical christians from every other uh every other group

00:55:16.000 And if evangelical Christians were to just get over those hangups and use the power that we have, and not just voting as a voting block, but really like, okay, running for different offices, getting in positions of power and business, building things, constructing things, taking a powerful mindset, man, we could make great changes in our society.

00:55:37.900 yeah i'm so glad you're writing a book like that because i i just wrote a you know a short thread

00:55:43.460 on twitter a few weeks ago very much about this and how evangelicals have outsourced their ruling

00:55:50.400 class because deep down somewhere in their kind of political theology the idea that they would

00:55:56.680 have power or wield power is somehow dirty that this is both you know beneath them that that you

00:56:02.160 know this is unholy that you should you know kind of eschew this at every moment and if someone else

00:56:06.660 will do that for you, then good, you can stay holier. And I'm glad you brought out David because

00:56:10.800 that really is the contrast that I think about a lot. David is considered a man after God's own

00:56:16.460 heart. He's elevated as one of the greatest men to ever be in the Bible. And then obviously we

00:56:23.400 can think of all of his faults. He's an adulterer. He's a murderer. He has all these incredibly

00:56:28.600 serious sins. And then we look at all these men, Pharisees and others who held themselves up as

00:56:34.440 pious, who probably committed far less serious sins and far fewer numbers of sins, but who is

00:56:40.520 remembered as great in God's eyes. It's the man of action. It's the man of leadership. It's the man

00:56:45.940 who's willing to invest. You know, the Bible specifically talks about, don't just hide that

00:56:52.000 money in, you know, bury it in the earth. You have to go out and earn something with it. You have to

00:56:57.000 make something of it. And if it seems, and again, I want to be really clear here, this is not an

00:57:02.480 endorsement of sin in any way, shape, or form. But it seems to me from my layman's observation,

00:57:08.880 my non-theological observation, that God cares more about a man who's passionately following

00:57:13.960 him and makes mistakes along the way and seeks redemption than a guy who sits very carefully

00:57:19.820 in his high tower, making sure he never sins and then does nothing with the world. That ultimately

00:57:26.740 it is that involvement, that passion, that willingness to lead, that willingness to put

00:57:30.800 your faith in action and be a man who's going to show others where God wants them to go and then

00:57:37.220 be flawed rather than a man who's doing his very, very, very best to be extremely perfect and then

00:57:42.500 thinks that he's ultimately somehow like won the game with Christ and he will be elevated at the

00:57:47.620 end. Amen. Well, I love that. I'll tell you a quick story. There's one of my elders is a man

00:57:54.140 of action. He's a fierce, strong, just a mighty man. And we were having a conversation once about

00:58:01.280 future elders in our church. And we were going through a few different names. And there's one

00:58:05.100 name that came up. And the man that we were talking about is a guy who is very pious in the

00:58:09.820 sense that he's a very conscientious man. He is thoughtful and careful. And he's like, well,

00:58:16.660 I don't know if I want to do that because I want to be sure I'm not sinning. And so he's a man that

00:58:21.040 is very uh devout in his faith and so this elder friend of mine he was uh asking me he said you

00:58:28.400 know between me and this other man which of the two of us do you think will sin less in his life

00:58:34.640 and i said well it's the other guy he's going to send less than you and then he said who do you

00:58:38.880 think would make a better elder and i said you would make the better elder yeah not because you

00:58:43.520 sin less but because you're a man of action and as you say that's not an endorsement of sin

00:58:48.800 but men of action because they're in motion because they're doing things they're asserting

00:58:53.280 agency they're taking risks they will have more opportunities to get things wrong but that is the

00:58:58.800 grace that god had for david david got things wrong and the bible is very clear about god's

00:59:04.400 hatred of those sins but david was a man of action and god used him mightily we need more christians

00:59:09.840 like that that are not so worried about their scruples but are more willing to put themselves

00:59:16.640 out there and take a risk and be men of action. Those are the men that you can build a society

00:59:20.380 with. Well, and I think this is also, you know, people, I think, especially in our democratic

00:59:25.060 system where responsibility and power so diffuse, it's in all these congressmen and all these

00:59:31.260 agencies, and no one has any hope of ever remembering them all, much less holding them

00:59:34.880 accountable. We don't have this idea of power as being a burden. We think it's, oh, well,

00:59:40.000 that's cool. You get a salary and people like you and they want to take photos with you and you get

00:59:43.160 to go to cool places but for most of history people understood like yeah a lot of people

00:59:47.280 want to be king but actually a lot of people don't want to be king because actually it costs you a lot

00:59:51.560 and very importantly it can cost you your soul like it you know there's a very i read a lot of

00:59:56.100 Machiavelli and i know Machiavelli is right about how the world works and because Machiavelli is

01:00:01.540 very right about how the world works that means any christian in power is in a very precarious

01:00:05.600 place because Machiavelli is not a good man and so we have this constant tension however you know

01:00:11.340 But if you don't have Christian men in those positions fighting that fight, you'll have Machiavelli's.

01:00:16.500 And so the question is, what do you want to do?

01:00:19.200 Is your piety so important to you that you would let Machiavelli's run the world?

01:00:23.520 Or are you willing to step in and wear that burden knowing that corruption is possible and something that could be a cost for what you have done?

01:00:32.420 But ultimately, you could still do more good than others in those positions.

01:00:37.000 That is, I think, the tension that is very difficult and something that is easy to lose when we lose sight of power as a burden and a responsibility that ultimately you are bearing in the same way that, you know, the father is bearing so much responsibility and so many opportunities to mess up with their child, but ultimately can be the most powerful influence for good in their life.

01:00:56.340 I think the same can be true of the ruler. And I think that's where many people miss that vision.

01:01:01.060 But that said, we've got some questions coming in from the audience, and I don't want to keep

01:01:04.120 you forever. So before we move over to the questions of the people, can you let people

01:01:07.480 know again about that book, where they might be able to find it when it's out, and where else

01:01:11.420 they can find your work? Yeah, the book is called Loser Theology, Why the Weak Will Not Inherit

01:01:19.200 the earth um it is in uh it's in pre-publication so um there's not a website or listing on amazon

01:01:26.160 but it is due out very soon so we're really trying to push hard to get it it's being uh

01:01:30.880 published by canon press um so i would expect in the next month or so um that it'll you know

01:01:36.960 be able to have a link for it and information um the and it's a it's a it's a it's a book

01:01:43.920 written to encourage young not young people but encourage people i think young people would benefit

01:01:49.680 from it but it's written to encourage people to be high agency christians that are not captive by

01:01:54.880 this loser theology um so if uh i'm on x d michael clary is my handle the letter d michael clary um

01:02:03.440 probably the best way to to keep track is my sub stack which is d michael clary.com

01:02:08.400 them and if you uh if you go there um you could be subscribe there's a bunch of articles and stuff

01:02:13.520 but if you subscribe then uh whenever the book comes out i'll i'll post a notice there um so

01:02:19.000 within the next month or so it'll be out and it's it's very much this last part of our conversation

01:02:22.500 is is exactly what it's aimed at yeah and your original vivek piece is on the sub stack as well

01:02:27.580 so people subscribe to that they can read the vivek piece and they'll know when the book comes

01:02:30.760 out and everything so everybody please go check out that piece i think it was very good and very

01:02:35.860 clear about what the problem is that said let's hear from the people manny you'd says india is

01:02:41.240 just an idea anyone can be indian rudyard kipling was born in india he is an indian he was an india

01:02:46.920 he was india's best writer yeah again you know this people do this with japan you know same thing

01:02:52.380 you know if there's american guy born in japan he must be japanese that's just it as soon as you

01:02:57.360 transport this set of uh parameters to any other culture it immediately falls apart and i think

01:03:02.940 that's what reveals it to be kind of a sham in ours as well. People want to say that this is

01:03:07.640 something that makes America somehow unique, but actually there's plenty of other things that make

01:03:11.900 America unique. You don't have to have no identity to be unique. Actually, that's very deleterious

01:03:16.400 to you. You can be unique in all kinds of great and superior ways, which America is, and you don't

01:03:20.520 have to be unique in your subservience to every other culture. That's not actually what America

01:03:24.360 means. Manyud also says, I've dabbled in Eastern philosophy and I have a fondness for the East and

01:03:31.820 the culture there, but my sinful heart goes to Christ. And I feel that here in America,

01:03:37.200 we should return to Christ. Actually, Michael, this is a good thing because I'm someone who

01:03:41.420 reads a lot of philosophy from other traditions and tries to incorporate it and understand it.

01:03:46.540 I think there's some usefulness to this, but when people are looking for faith traditions and

01:03:52.140 they're trying to understand where they should go, what is it about Christianity that should

01:03:58.020 draw them in, especially as Westerners, but obviously just as those created in the image of

01:04:02.220 Christ? Every worldview apart from Christianity is based on human effort. At the end of the day,

01:04:09.960 it is going to be you are, because of the way you live, then there's going to be some reward

01:04:15.520 in an afterlife that you will receive based on how you live. Christianity is the one faith,

01:04:21.060 and it's unique, not only because it is true, but it is unique in this way, and that it is

01:04:26.100 god's declaration that because we are sinful that there is nothing we can do to merit our

01:04:31.220 eternal reward with god and so we need god to uh to pay the penalty for our sin and to

01:04:38.100 come down to us to meet us where we are and to make a way for us to be in eternity with him

01:04:43.520 and so christianity says you can't do it yourself you need someone to do it for you and that is what

01:04:48.940 jesus christ did on our behalf so god's wrath against sin was paid forth the cross by jesus

01:04:53.920 christ and that is applied to us whenever we repent of our sin and we place our faith in him

01:05:02.160 and so in one sense it is very simple but it's a simple just i believe in you jesus and i want to

01:05:09.840 um i want the forgiveness and the life that you have to me and uh by the blood on the cross

01:05:16.560 but in another sense um it is a demanding life it is a strenuous life uh because once jesus owns

01:05:22.720 you he bids you come and die and owe him and make him lord of your life and he's going to change

01:05:28.080 you he's going to transform you uh so that is um eastern philosophy there there is an academic

01:05:34.080 respect that people are supposed to show a deference for you know we we respect all faiths

01:05:38.960 but but i'm a pastor and i don't i don't have that same uh those same reservations or restrictions on

01:05:45.440 what i say i will just say plainly that is worldly philosophy it is empty it is a dead end it is false

01:05:51.600 and ultimately demonic there is one truth and it is the lord jesus christ and if you repent and

01:05:56.620 believe you can be saved and that's why that old man in ohio as rural as he was was far more correct

01:06:02.560 than ramaswamy with all his degrees and all of his money and all of his education because it turns out

01:06:07.920 the only truth that really matters at the end of the day is that jesus really is the only way to

01:06:12.200 god the only one there are no other alternatives moonshiners monk says vivek thinks hard work and

01:06:19.820 pulling up your bootstraps is peak American values, because that was the American boomer

01:06:24.680 mentality when his parents were here for his family. Nothing exists before that. And yeah,

01:06:28.360 I think this is a good point, right? Like even if a VEC is entirely sincere, right? Like even if

01:06:33.240 he's a hundred percent bought into this mentality, the mentality is just the thing that was there

01:06:38.940 when he arrived. It's America as his parents understood it. So he's conserving a tradition.

01:06:44.180 It's just a tradition that's like 30 years old. And to be fair, a lot of people who spend a lot

01:06:49.080 of times screaming at me on you know twitter and on the internet saying i'm not really conservative

01:06:54.600 i'm woke i'm all these things i don't believe in these principles they're doing the same thing

01:06:59.240 they're only conservating you know rush limbaugh you know sean hannity uh you know ronald reagan

01:07:04.800 conservatism they have no understanding of these like deeper uh traditions so i think that's a good

01:07:11.440 insight is that like he could be honest in every way and still be insufficient for many reasons

01:07:17.800 one is the political traditions but one is the faith traditions right in both senses he's just

01:07:22.980 picking up those little like kind of mcdonald's happy meal style version of christianity and

01:07:28.120 saying i hold to this or uh or rather american identity and saying i hold to this while ignoring

01:07:33.460 the christian underlie lie and and all the other political traditions that existed well before his

01:07:38.700 family got here because he's ignorant of them they don't mean anything to him he does not understand

01:07:43.300 that world uh zhzh says vivek is an anchor baby not an american his dad was not a citizen when

01:07:52.120 he was born his mom became a citizen after he was born yeah like i said he is entirely a creature

01:07:56.360 of the 14th amendment and birthright citizenship and that's why i think it's so difficult it's why

01:08:00.720 he clashes so hard with many others look i i don't know nayland haley that well like uh uh uh

01:08:07.740 uh i've forgotten her first name all of a sudden nikki uh nikki thank you nikki haley's uh son

01:08:14.620 but at the very least he seems like pretty passionate about actually no america is a very

01:08:19.380 specific thing and it has a much longer tradition and you should be christian and all these other

01:08:23.100 things i don't know i don't know him very well maybe he's not fully assimilated maybe as it is

01:08:27.100 but at the very least he's presenting himself as someone who understands the depth of the problem

01:08:32.680 that we just don't see from Vivek at all. Elijah Tymon says, Vivek, Republicanism is what you get

01:08:40.000 when you ground the issue of demographics on maintaining GOP electoral viability. Indians

01:08:46.160 are different, but for the GOP, they offset Hispanic dim votes. Look at Texas. But here's

01:08:51.280 the thing, man, and I understand what you're saying there. That's not even true. So if you

01:08:55.380 look at actual Indian voting patterns, they're 65 to 70 percent Democrat, despite the Republicans

01:09:02.420 courting them trying to put them at the center of stuff like vivek coming into the party you know

01:09:07.320 bringing them into nat con and having them have a big speech and saying oh you know a billion indians

01:09:12.020 are behind you despite all of this idea that they're going to be like our minority and if we

01:09:18.080 import the good minority then we'll be in charge that doesn't even work so just bringing people in

01:09:24.100 to to cancel out the beliefs of your political opponents who are fellow americans is always wrong

01:09:30.640 it's always morally wrong and it's a losing strategy for republicans anyway so just don't

01:09:35.400 do it just never believe the lie there is no naturally conservative minority that's a lie

01:09:39.800 it's a lie it's a lie it's a lie and you can see the numbers every time hispanics just finally and

01:09:45.860 it was only hispanic males finally voted for donald trump that's the first time that's ever

01:09:51.220 happened before that always solid democratic blocks asian voters indian voters jewish voters

01:09:57.940 It doesn't matter. They all vote majority Democrat by a wide margin. So just stop believing this lie that we're going to bring in the one really, really conservative group and they're going to do this. Look, I promise you that culturally Muslims are very conservative in theory. In fact, they vote for the Democratic Party incredibly reliably. I promise you the same will be true of Haitians and Somalians and anyone else you bring in who's theoretically culturally conservative. It's just not true. It's not going to win you elections. So don't do it.

01:10:27.940 uh joe mcdermott says i am against voting dim to teach the gop a lesson in federal elections but

01:10:34.300 still i'd rather vivek lost he's a scammer who uh said he uh he cried on january 6th he knows

01:10:40.400 who knows what else he's hiding his h1b stance has already been a deal breaker yeah man i think

01:10:44.720 we all kind of feel that way like i think that i think you just put everybody's feeling in the

01:10:48.480 nutshell nobody wants the democrats to win but man the republicans have to learn this lesson

01:10:52.580 they have to learn this lesson we don't have time for them to continually throw this uh you know

01:10:57.400 you know their voters over the side like this they cannot keep doing this and like again i don't

01:11:03.440 encourage anyone voting democrat i think that's very stupid but i'm not going to blame people

01:11:07.300 when they don't show up to republicans who don't do anything for them like and that's still a

01:11:11.740 disaster so they need to fix something very quickly and finally manner you'd says on an

01:11:17.420 unrelated note i found out that genre rep skills uh the camp of the saints has an audiobook now

01:11:23.980 just wanted to share that with everyone yes for those who don't know uh obviously the camp of the

01:11:28.180 saints is a classic work warning about uh the dangers of mass immigration very forward thinking

01:11:33.340 it was actually taken off of amazon by a mistake recently uh that was rectified after a lot of

01:11:40.160 outcry and shot right up to the charts i think it ended up at like top four books or something on

01:11:45.000 amazon so keep that trend going if you've never read camp of the saints it's a really important

01:11:49.240 book again it prefigures a lot of what we're talking about here a lot of it from india so

01:11:55.160 if you need it to be extremely relevant you'll get that out of the book as well all right guys

01:11:59.660 we're going to go ahead and wrap this up once again i want to thank michael so much for coming

01:12:03.180 on make sure that you're checking out his sub stack so you can read the original piece and find

01:12:07.360 his book once it comes out if it's your first time on this channel of course you need to click

01:12:11.020 subscribe bell notifications all that stuff so you know when we go live if you want to get these

01:12:15.380 broadcast this podcast. Make sure you subscribe to the Oren McIntyre show on your favorite podcast

01:12:19.520 platform. And if you want to get my book, the total state, a soft cover second edition is now

01:12:24.740 out with an extra chapter. So make sure to pick that up. Thank you everybody for watching. And

01:12:28.260 as always, I'll talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - May 04, 2026

Vivek Ramaswamy Can't Conserve America ｜ Guest： Michael Clary ｜ 5⧸4⧸26

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