The Auron MacIntyre Show - Was the Constitution America's First Coup？｜ Ryan Turnipseed

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.640 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.200 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.840 So, I know a lot of you have heard the history.

00:00:40.660 Of course, we all know it from our high school classes, right?

00:00:43.780 We had the Revolution.

00:00:45.080 There were these high taxes, a tyrannical king.

00:00:47.960 The United States fought back, won its independence.

00:00:50.820 And then it jumped directly into the founding document, the Constitution,

00:00:55.520 which separated powers and made sure that the government would never consolidate

00:00:59.140 into some kind of overbearing total state, right?

00:01:02.800 Except, of course, that's not the history.

00:01:05.100 There was an entire period where the Constitution did not rule our country,

00:01:08.780 where we had another document, the Articles of Confederation,

00:01:12.280 and there was a whole different rebellion that took place inside the United States

00:01:17.340 before we got our Constitution.

00:01:19.220 So, we're going to be diving into that today.

00:01:21.140 We're going to go ahead and get to that important back history that many people are not aware of.

00:01:26.020 But before we do that, let me introduce you to my guest today.

00:01:29.360 He is returning.

00:01:30.580 He is one of the smartest guys when it comes to history,

00:01:33.360 and he is here to help me unspool this whole thing.

00:01:36.800 Ryan Turnipseed, thanks for joining me, man.

00:01:38.880 Thank you very much for the introduction.

00:01:41.100 I'm flattered.

00:01:42.300 Also, very happy to be back here again and talking about history and not other subjects.

00:01:47.760 Yeah, absolutely.

00:01:48.760 Yeah, I figured you could use this one.

00:01:51.060 You did such a great job with our MLK episode

00:01:54.600 that I knew I wanted to go ahead and dive into this with you.

00:01:58.060 So, we're going to be talking, of course, about the Constitution

00:02:01.900 and whether it was actually a coup,

00:02:05.020 whether it was actually a coup against the existing government of the United States,

00:02:09.200 what do we think about that?

00:02:10.440 How did all of this come about?

00:02:12.320 So, like I said, many of you might already be familiar,

00:02:15.700 but I think even more of you might be surprised to find out

00:02:18.240 that the Constitution was not our first document.

00:02:21.880 It was not the first document that governed the United States.

00:02:24.980 The Constitution, of course, is the Constitution of 1790,

00:02:28.120 but the American Revolutionary War is over in 81 or 83,

00:02:32.260 depending on how you want to look at it.

00:02:34.660 And so, there's a whole period between the time of the end of the Revolutionary War

00:02:38.860 and the ratification of the Constitution

00:02:41.560 where we are ruled by another document called the Articles of Confederation.

00:02:47.360 So, Ryan, let's go ahead and jump in.

00:02:50.160 What was the Articles of Confederation?

00:02:52.420 How did it significantly differ from, say, our current understanding of the Constitution?

00:02:56.520 Right. So, that's a pretty heavy question,

00:03:00.800 and then you'll get a different answer for each different historian you'll ask.

00:03:03.820 But there's a – the way that I would usually view it,

00:03:07.320 if you look at the development of the East Coast colonies,

00:03:11.720 by the time they're first settled to the Revolutionary War,

00:03:14.960 each of them are very different.

00:03:16.620 They have different interests.

00:03:17.760 They have different classes that people would organize into socially and economically,

00:03:21.260 different economic productions.

00:03:24.220 So, the North was very separate from the South,

00:03:26.560 which would later develop in our history come the Civil War.

00:03:30.980 And different states were much larger or much smaller,

00:03:33.740 depending on their charter or their official borders.

00:03:36.620 If you were going to unify these separate entities into a country

00:03:42.120 after this war or during the war,

00:03:44.700 you're going to have to have either the world's greatest negotiator

00:03:48.620 or a godly document to satisfy everyone.

00:03:54.300 Neither are really possible.

00:03:56.040 You can get pretty close to both.

00:03:57.880 But what we ended up having was a confederal document,

00:04:01.140 the Articles of Confederation,

00:04:03.000 which some people would say that the more nationalistic northern elements

00:04:09.100 were using it sort of as a stopgap.

00:04:11.820 You know, you would take those Articles of Confederation

00:04:14.680 that had a sort of federal advisory committee, if you will.

00:04:20.160 So, there was sort of like a central government.

00:04:22.520 It just had almost no powers at all.

00:04:24.800 It was more advisory.

00:04:26.180 You had delegates from each of the different territories

00:04:28.140 that would go to represent their constituents or their state

00:04:33.880 in this advisory committee.

00:04:36.000 But ultimate and actual power was on each of the state governments

00:04:39.980 or each of the territorial governments.

00:04:42.820 So, nationalistic elements could have seen this

00:04:45.720 as sort of like a stopgap measure,

00:04:47.680 keep the whole country together

00:04:49.040 and then progressively amended as time goes on.

00:04:52.600 More, I don't know what you would call it,

00:04:55.220 liberal or anti-nationalist or colonial elements, if you will,

00:05:00.420 hearkening back to the more colonial style of governance,

00:05:03.100 would have viewed this as a more ideal document

00:05:06.420 because each of these large states in the South and the Mid-Atlantic

00:05:10.280 did not have to be beholden to some extra governing body

00:05:15.080 that would look closer to a British imperial government,

00:05:18.680 just closer to home.

00:05:19.580 You know, Virginia could do its own thing inside Virginia

00:05:24.260 without having to take into account Massachusetts

00:05:27.460 or any of the other northern, more nationalistic states.

00:05:32.520 So, that's one way to look at it.

00:05:35.400 If you were wanting to look at, like, historical continuity,

00:05:38.740 it much more closely reflects how each of these colonies developed.

00:05:44.160 So, if you were to go back to the early 1700s, late 1690s,

00:05:50.320 and propose the idea that each of the British colonies

00:05:53.680 in the east coast of North America outside of Canada

00:05:56.600 would be in one entity, it would be absolutely insane.

00:06:00.180 You had the Carolina colonies,

00:06:02.120 which looked more feudal in their establishment.

00:06:05.500 It was quite famously, their founding constitution

00:06:08.740 was written by John Locke to enshrine a very rigid aristocracy.

00:06:12.280 You had the puritanical charters in the north,

00:06:15.760 which were, like, night and day

00:06:18.520 compared to the mid-Atlantic or southern aristocracies.

00:06:21.980 You had the famous Virginia planter aristocracy

00:06:25.080 that would produce our anti-federalist elements

00:06:28.160 like Thomas Jefferson,

00:06:30.220 which I'm sure we'll get into in some capacity.

00:06:32.960 This Articles of Confederation sort of kept these differences

00:06:35.900 between each of the colonial governments

00:06:38.440 going into an independent government

00:06:40.260 while still uniting them

00:06:42.500 under sort of like a defense treaty, if you will.

00:06:44.760 They would defend each other,

00:06:46.100 pay towards some sort of a common fund

00:06:47.760 as they deemed fit,

00:06:49.200 but they could keep their peculiarities.

00:06:51.640 That might be a good summary.

00:06:54.780 Maybe I left something out there.

00:06:56.140 No, that's a good way to start.

00:06:57.640 Yeah, I think it's essential for people to understand

00:06:59.620 that this dysfunction, like you're talking about,

00:07:02.220 more is a defense treaty

00:07:03.760 between these different kind of quasi-nations

00:07:07.340 rather than one unifying document

00:07:09.580 that was going to create a large or powerful country.

00:07:13.180 It, of course, has some huge differences.

00:07:15.820 There's really only one branch of government.

00:07:18.220 There's really only a legislative branch.

00:07:19.800 There are no national courts.

00:07:22.980 There is no executive.

00:07:24.420 People don't realize that.

00:07:25.620 Yes, George Washington's technically your first president,

00:07:28.140 but that's only because there is no executive

00:07:29.960 up until that point.

00:07:31.620 There's a president of the Congress,

00:07:33.940 but he doesn't really have executive power

00:07:36.100 in the way that we think about it.

00:07:37.900 There's also no way really for the states

00:07:41.300 to adjudicate a lot of their differences.

00:07:43.780 There's no court that can decide between borders

00:07:47.120 or other issues of states.

00:07:49.660 There's no agreement that requires states

00:07:51.920 to kind of treat each other's citizens

00:07:53.680 really as even part of the same country.

00:07:56.500 You could put certain taxes and restrictions

00:07:59.520 on travelers from other states into your state.

00:08:02.600 So if someone from Virginia wanted to go

00:08:04.420 into Massachusetts and sell something,

00:08:06.280 they could actually put specific restrictions on them

00:08:09.040 as if they were some kind of foreign entity

00:08:11.160 trying to do trade with them.

00:08:13.660 And so when we're looking at the Art of the Confederation,

00:08:15.560 it is a very loose confederation, really.

00:08:19.020 It is a very loose joining of these different states,

00:08:23.780 basically different countries,

00:08:26.040 again, under kind of this mutual defense treaty,

00:08:28.560 rather than some kind of unified country

00:08:31.320 with a particular identity, a particular purpose.

00:08:34.020 And so the United States was always kind of

00:08:35.740 originally conceived in this way.

00:08:38.520 That has a lot of advantages to some people today.

00:08:41.580 They think of that, okay, that's awesome

00:08:43.100 that all these states got to do this.

00:08:44.360 They didn't have an overbearing government,

00:08:46.020 but it also left certain things lacking.

00:08:49.620 For instance, the government could technically raise an army,

00:08:52.800 but it didn't really have a funding mechanism for that army.

00:08:56.600 It didn't have the ability to collect taxes.

00:08:59.320 It also didn't have the ability to print money on a national scale.

00:09:03.540 And so that meant that the United States could not pay its collective debts

00:09:08.020 for the war against Britain.

00:09:10.600 Instead, they had to kind of break those debts

00:09:15.140 across all these different states.

00:09:16.740 Each state was responsible for a portion of the war debt.

00:09:21.500 And that's kind of where we start running into Shays' Rebellion, right?

00:09:25.200 That these states become desperate to pay off much of this war debt.

00:09:30.200 And many of these states, Massachusetts is the one we'll be focusing on

00:09:33.480 because this is where the action took place.

00:09:35.380 But they start levying excessive taxes against their population.

00:09:41.720 In some cases, way more than they ever paid under the British.

00:09:44.680 So I saw some estimates between three and five times more taxes

00:09:48.300 to the state government to pay off this war debt

00:09:51.440 than they did to the British government

00:09:52.780 to pay off the debt for the French and Indian War.

00:09:55.780 Right.

00:09:56.400 And so that's one of the historical ironies,

00:09:59.900 which was not lost on the colonists.

00:10:01.320 As we mentioned, there was a very famous rebellion

00:10:03.360 that we'll be diving into.

00:10:05.100 Another very pertinent factor was that there was a,

00:10:09.220 what modern historiography would call a depression,

00:10:13.220 basically immediately after the war, 1780,

00:10:15.960 where you had some very questionable monetary policies

00:10:20.740 coming from the Bank of North America, if I recall correctly,

00:10:23.300 which they were trying to garner legitimacy.

00:10:27.700 They employed people like Thomas Paine and all these other types

00:10:30.640 that we would know now and that a lot of the colonists knew

00:10:33.120 to support an inflationary monetary regime.

00:10:37.320 Most people with sound economics would know that if you have an inflationary regime,

00:10:42.600 it is not going to treat your farmers, your planters, your artisans well,

00:10:46.560 the people sort of on the lower end.

00:10:48.280 They're the last people that get this new money.

00:10:50.140 They are going to get the worst, the short end of the stick.

00:10:53.780 The people that get the money first, like the industrialists,

00:10:56.860 whatever cronies were tied to the Bank of North America,

00:11:01.880 were going to get it first.

00:11:03.020 They're going to be better off.

00:11:04.680 And this really sort of outlines that you have two power classes

00:11:08.980 that have arisen in this post-revolutionary government

00:11:12.920 or collection of states.

00:11:14.860 You had planters, artisans, farmers, these, I don't want to say lower class people

00:11:21.900 because that implies a sort of hierarchy here,

00:11:23.860 but you'll see when the contrast comes in

00:11:28.600 because you have the other class,

00:11:29.720 which would be the more northern sort of statesmen and politicians,

00:11:34.600 industrialists, merchants that would tend to comprise

00:11:37.780 a more nationalistic faction for various different reasons,

00:11:41.040 which you can kind of see why you would want to rank them higher class

00:11:44.820 and lower class.

00:11:46.460 So with this nationalist faction that was arising

00:11:48.840 immediately after the war stopped,

00:11:52.800 industrialists did not like the fact that for each of the different governments,

00:11:57.740 you could have a different regulation on commerce,

00:12:00.280 a different currency to exchange.

00:12:02.180 You would have to lobby for different protections

00:12:04.420 from those governments for your industry.

00:12:06.220 It would be much more convenient, much more profitable

00:12:09.740 for these specific and established industries

00:12:12.020 if there was just one trade zone comprising all of the colonies

00:12:17.120 with one tariff to protect them,

00:12:20.180 one government to lobby for their protections.

00:12:23.460 And these industrials would be in league with the statesmen

00:12:26.060 and politicians of the north, which we mentioned earlier,

00:12:28.760 tended to be from more smaller nationalistic states,

00:12:31.400 which favored a stronger centralized government

00:12:35.300 as opposed to the more southern and mid-Atlantic anti-federalist states,

00:12:40.900 also had a very good relationship with the pulpits,

00:12:46.320 the pastors that spanned the nation,

00:12:49.180 and the media organizations, the newspapers,

00:12:51.840 tended to be more nationalistic.

00:12:53.200 So these are your two classes

00:12:54.280 that really start to divide themselves after this depression

00:12:59.060 because of all the different policies

00:13:01.460 that impacted them differently.

00:13:03.060 One was sort of being hurt for the benefit of the other,

00:13:07.360 which would lead us very neatly into a reaction to all of this

00:13:11.900 in the form of the Shaysites.

00:13:13.780 Yeah, so we're really, like you're saying,

00:13:15.920 we're seeing the emergence of kind of this divide

00:13:18.580 that will lead us through the Civil War

00:13:21.440 and basically up to today,

00:13:24.000 which is this divide between the urban and the rural, right?

00:13:27.200 We have the ports, we have the warehouses,

00:13:30.780 we have the merchant class,

00:13:32.740 we have those who make their money in the cities

00:13:35.540 and off of industry,

00:13:37.540 and they want to see a unification,

00:13:40.480 they want to see a uniformity

00:13:41.900 because this allows for increases of trade.

00:13:44.500 If this sounds familiar,

00:13:45.960 because you've been listening to my managerial elite theory videos,

00:13:50.600 that's because this is a function of capital as well,

00:13:54.920 as much as that's going to make some people angry.

00:13:57.200 And so this is the centralization and the unification,

00:14:01.780 the standardization benefits a particular class,

00:14:04.940 a particular region,

00:14:06.040 a particular economic interest of people

00:14:08.420 who live in these urban areas.

00:14:11.740 And the farmers have a much different interest.

00:14:16.360 The rural populations have a much different interest,

00:14:19.520 and they don't want to see this happen the same way.

00:14:22.300 Now, on top of the fact that they're already paying taxes,

00:14:26.760 many of these farmers were, of course,

00:14:29.060 soldiers in the Revolutionary War.

00:14:31.880 They came back after years of not being able to work their farms

00:14:35.460 or leaving it only to their wives

00:14:38.040 or their young sons to work the farm.

00:14:41.020 Many of them had to deeply leverage themselves

00:14:43.560 in order to maintain ownership of the farm,

00:14:46.820 to pay.

00:14:48.180 And as Ryan pointed out,

00:14:50.760 they also received the lowest benefits of new money

00:14:53.460 coming out of these banks

00:14:54.720 that they were leveraging themselves to.

00:14:56.960 And so a lot of them are seeing the fact

00:14:59.460 that basically we went to war

00:15:00.900 to go fight against taxation without representation,

00:15:04.400 tyranny,

00:15:05.240 these people who are forcing us to lose our livelihoods.

00:15:07.820 And now I'm paying three, five times more taxes

00:15:12.280 so that this rich guy over in Boston

00:15:15.220 can make sure to make his money.

00:15:19.120 They can pay back his debts.

00:15:20.760 That doesn't make any sense.

00:15:22.300 So these guys who had just gone to war

00:15:24.680 over taxes are now being heavily taxed.

00:15:29.200 Now, on top of that,

00:15:30.980 some states like Massachusetts

00:15:32.640 passed the Currency Act.

00:15:34.180 The Currency Act requires

00:15:36.000 that all of these debts

00:15:38.080 that are paid to the government

00:15:39.140 now need to be paid in hard currency.

00:15:42.680 They need to be paid in gold or silver

00:15:44.100 that can't be paid in paper currency.

00:15:46.800 And so farmers who are already

00:15:48.520 very unlikely to have gold and silver at hand anyway

00:15:52.320 can't even use the paper money

00:15:54.080 that they were largely paid with

00:15:55.520 for military service

00:15:56.560 if they were paid at all

00:15:57.740 in order to pay back their debts.

00:16:00.120 And they can't use the products of their trade

00:16:02.980 because barter is still very heavily used at this time

00:16:06.700 because, again, there's not a standardized currency.

00:16:09.180 And so they are even further behind the eight ball

00:16:11.280 when it comes to trying to pay these things off.

00:16:13.560 And, of course, these guys say to themselves,

00:16:15.660 well, you know, we just fought a war over this.

00:16:19.680 Why don't we go ahead

00:16:20.900 and use our right to go protest?

00:16:23.440 Of course, again, guys,

00:16:24.480 there's no Bill of Rights yet,

00:16:26.100 so they wouldn't have said the First Amendment,

00:16:27.380 but they understood the idea

00:16:28.620 of asking for redress of grievances through protest.

00:16:32.000 And so these guys go

00:16:33.560 and they decide to start protesting

00:16:35.380 by shutting down the courts

00:16:37.620 because the courts had to basically go through

00:16:40.940 a legal proceeding to foreclose on the farms

00:16:43.480 if they didn't pay their debts.

00:16:45.180 So if the government wanted to seize the farms,

00:16:47.720 they had to go ahead and go through this.

00:16:49.440 And, of course, when these guys are protesting,

00:16:50.900 they're not just some guys with signs.

00:16:52.700 These are literally soldiers

00:16:53.920 who just went to war recently,

00:16:55.260 so they're showing up with bandits and rifles.

00:16:57.380 Right, and so if people just want

00:17:00.040 some sort of hard currency

00:17:01.040 for just what was the situation like at the time

00:17:03.780 for taxation, war debts, foreclosures,

00:17:07.320 and all this other stuff,

00:17:08.740 post-war, the Massachusetts wartime debt,

00:17:13.760 it went from about 100,000 pounds

00:17:17.240 near the start of the Revolutionary War

00:17:19.840 to about 1.5 million pounds at the end,

00:17:22.900 which is an absolutely gigantic number for the time.

00:17:27.760 And this would, in turn, mean,

00:17:30.360 as we said beforehand,

00:17:32.080 there's no central agents,

00:17:34.280 there's no central government,

00:17:35.400 there's no central executive.

00:17:37.140 This tax collection fell onto the state governments,

00:17:39.560 and however they were organized

00:17:40.900 was how they would collect,

00:17:42.560 which meant these Massachusetts courthouses

00:17:45.320 would entertain most of the suits

00:17:47.900 for debtors, for foreclosures,

00:17:50.560 for whatever else, delinquency and whatnot,

00:17:53.680 whatever would come about.

00:17:56.580 So just for instance, 1784,

00:18:00.400 Massachusetts was still suffering

00:18:03.880 from this extreme depression.

00:18:05.900 Another thing that we might want to touch on

00:18:07.560 just briefly is that during the war,

00:18:10.340 most of these northern industrialists

00:18:12.460 had greatly expanded their productive capacities

00:18:15.000 beyond what might be economically sensible,

00:18:17.900 which meant that a lot of these state expenditures

00:18:21.120 and protections and whatever else

00:18:22.660 that were hurting these more rural interests

00:18:26.480 were going to protect these overbloated industries

00:18:30.020 that were still a holdover from the war.

00:18:32.400 That didn't sit well,

00:18:34.080 and this tax burden, as we mentioned,

00:18:37.020 didn't, it did not sit well

00:18:40.720 with the rural interests,

00:18:42.420 especially after they had been fighting for so long.

00:18:44.440 So in the Worcester County of Massachusetts,

00:18:49.040 1784 alone, there were 2,000 suits

00:18:51.400 for the recovery of taxes and other debts.

00:18:54.000 That's, once again, 1780s Massachusetts County

00:18:58.480 right after the war,

00:19:00.640 and there's already thousands of suits

00:19:03.280 being leveled against people

00:19:05.980 to procure war debt, basically,

00:19:09.260 because these people are unable to pay taxes.

00:19:11.460 That's an absolutely insane number

00:19:14.180 for just getting out of a war

00:19:16.420 during an economic depression

00:19:17.800 for a state whose policies heavily favored

00:19:21.380 industrialists at the expense of farmers.

00:19:25.200 You can't really govern like that

00:19:27.140 regardless of how strong you think you are

00:19:29.040 because that's a great erosion of a legitimacy,

00:19:31.860 which every state, every social organization relies upon

00:19:35.480 in order to govern effectively.

00:19:37.480 If you do not have legitimacy,

00:19:38.560 you will get people rebelling against you,

00:19:41.360 which leads to that protest

00:19:43.860 that you were talking about,

00:19:45.340 mostly from the western parts of Massachusetts,

00:19:47.660 the places where you would have

00:19:51.540 most of these suits for the recovery of taxes

00:19:53.880 and other debts,

00:19:55.380 where the farmers were

00:19:57.000 in this nationalistic industrial state.

00:19:59.520 There are still half of it which is rural

00:20:01.280 and is not at the benefit

00:20:04.000 of any of these policies.

00:20:05.120 Now, the government obviously is getting scared here.

00:20:11.460 They're not sure where this is going to go,

00:20:14.120 but they know this is probably not a great thing.

00:20:16.480 But funny enough, we have some disagreements here.

00:20:18.340 So one founding father, Thomas Jefferson,

00:20:20.900 hears about this.

00:20:22.040 He's in France at a time,

00:20:23.640 and he writes a letter,

00:20:25.500 you know, kind of musing about the fact

00:20:27.620 that there's a rebellion inside the United States.

00:20:30.260 And many people don't realize it,

00:20:31.520 but this is where his quote about the tree of liberty

00:20:34.840 from time to time needs to be watered,

00:20:36.860 you know, with the blood of patriots.

00:20:38.100 That's tyrants and patriots.

00:20:40.140 Like, this is where that quote comes from.

00:20:42.520 That quote is not about the Revolutionary War.

00:20:44.760 That quote is actually about Shea's rebellion.

00:20:47.840 And so in many ways,

00:20:49.860 Jefferson, who himself is going to end up

00:20:51.440 being an anti-federalist

00:20:52.520 and feels himself to be like an aristocrat

00:20:55.360 from the South

00:20:56.840 and from, you know,

00:20:57.920 kind of representing the rural interests,

00:20:59.660 sees this as a positive thing.

00:21:01.020 But then you have guys like Sam Adams

00:21:03.400 who actually vehemently oppose this rebellion,

00:21:08.540 who want to see it shut down

00:21:09.480 as quickly as possible.

00:21:11.640 Sam Adams will talk a little bit more eventually

00:21:15.040 about how kind of extreme he gets

00:21:16.520 with his demands about this.

00:21:18.060 But he's one of the voices

00:21:19.580 that ends up pushing

00:21:20.820 for a couple of different acts,

00:21:23.640 including something called the Riot Act.

00:21:26.140 So when people say,

00:21:26.880 read you the Riot Act,

00:21:27.880 that's where they're going to.

00:21:30.040 And the Riot Act basically said

00:21:32.260 that anybody who didn't immediately disperse

00:21:34.640 at one of these protests

00:21:36.000 could be jailed for a year,

00:21:38.100 could be lashed,

00:21:38.820 I think it's like 30 plus times

00:21:40.640 and like every three months.

00:21:43.080 So you wouldn't just get lashed

00:21:44.000 the first time before you went to jail.

00:21:45.600 You get lashed every three months

00:21:46.880 while you're in custody.

00:21:48.380 And also all of your property was forfeit.

00:21:52.040 So these guys who had just fought

00:21:54.140 this revolutionary war against taxes

00:21:56.980 were now learning that

00:21:57.940 if they even go and stand on the steps

00:21:59.800 of the courthouse and refuse to move,

00:22:02.320 then they can be locked in jail for a year,

00:22:05.140 lose all of their property,

00:22:06.760 and be lashed.

00:22:08.320 They also passed a law saying

00:22:11.640 you couldn't have more than 12 men

00:22:13.160 who were armed together,

00:22:14.700 that that was considered a posse.

00:22:16.400 And eventually they even went so far

00:22:19.060 as to suspend Habeas Corpus,

00:22:20.900 which is of course the favorite tool

00:22:22.640 of any government

00:22:23.360 that's just about to give you

00:22:24.340 the old railroad.

00:22:25.860 Right, exactly.

00:22:27.080 And you can kind of,

00:22:28.800 so we have all that.

00:22:30.260 It might sound familiar

00:22:31.120 for people that are familiar

00:22:32.460 with the war between the states

00:22:34.240 or maybe even some modern times

00:22:36.740 just with less direct means.

00:22:38.720 But I think a good contrast here

00:22:41.540 to see who's really upholding

00:22:44.680 how the country is supposed to be ran

00:22:47.320 would be looking at

00:22:48.160 what do these Western Massachusetts

00:22:49.740 protesters want.

00:22:53.680 Well, they were basically asking

00:22:56.840 the state government in Massachusetts

00:22:59.020 for an exemption of private property

00:23:02.160 of these people if they are arrested.

00:23:04.020 So they don't want their assets liquidated

00:23:06.340 without their consent.

00:23:07.400 something that was very heavily used

00:23:12.140 by the Anti-Federalists,

00:23:13.980 particularly Thomas Jefferson,

00:23:15.340 would be consent

00:23:16.180 in this new legal philosophy

00:23:18.700 that developed here.

00:23:20.760 This was a very consistent demand

00:23:24.460 from these people

00:23:25.740 in Western Massachusetts,

00:23:26.820 I would say.

00:23:27.700 And then,

00:23:29.980 moreover,

00:23:31.740 they also were protesting

00:23:33.860 the assumption of more debt

00:23:36.880 upon Massachusetts.

00:23:39.040 Not because they didn't think

00:23:40.420 that debt shouldn't be paid off,

00:23:42.020 but because,

00:23:42.480 as we already discussed,

00:23:43.740 Massachusetts had an absolutely

00:23:45.300 insane amount of debt

00:23:46.360 and the burden was only falling

00:23:47.920 upon these farmers.

00:23:49.520 And every time that Massachusetts

00:23:51.240 would incur some form of more debt,

00:23:54.440 they would up polls taxes,

00:23:57.860 estate taxes,

00:23:59.080 or something along those lines,

00:24:02.200 taxes that very obviously

00:24:03.360 will harm these people out West,

00:24:06.440 not necessarily the people

00:24:07.720 closer to the coast

00:24:08.780 who would be the industrialists,

00:24:12.380 that other, more higher class power group

00:24:16.120 that we discussed at the beginning.

00:24:18.500 So whenever they had,

00:24:20.280 you know,

00:24:20.520 habeas corpus was suspended,

00:24:22.280 whenever they had

00:24:23.080 all of these different

00:24:23.920 very suppressive

00:24:26.760 actions taken against them.

00:24:31.960 That sort of exacerbated

00:24:33.880 this whole thing

00:24:34.440 because now support

00:24:35.660 for these Shaysites,

00:24:36.920 as they would later be called,

00:24:38.800 still in the protesting stage,

00:24:41.020 not exactly a full-on insurgency,

00:24:43.240 would spread beyond

00:24:45.220 just the western part

00:24:46.340 of Massachusetts

00:24:47.000 because it didn't set well

00:24:48.360 with most people,

00:24:49.240 regardless of whatever

00:24:50.220 power group you were in,

00:24:52.140 that the state

00:24:53.720 was taking on

00:24:54.540 more and more debt,

00:24:55.280 was protecting

00:24:55.820 one specific sector

00:24:57.700 of its economy,

00:24:59.140 and was basically

00:25:00.480 just shafting

00:25:01.280 everyone else

00:25:02.160 out West.

00:25:03.440 You don't have to be

00:25:04.140 a farmer or a planter

00:25:05.220 to see that this is unjust,

00:25:06.960 especially after,

00:25:07.940 as you mentioned,

00:25:08.940 the entire rallying cry

00:25:10.560 for this

00:25:11.060 almost decade-long war

00:25:13.860 was no taxation

00:25:15.540 without representation,

00:25:16.440 and here you had

00:25:18.080 these people

00:25:18.700 who fought for that

00:25:19.380 coming home,

00:25:20.360 getting their estates

00:25:21.520 foreclosed upon.

00:25:23.180 So,

00:25:24.080 that's the,

00:25:25.440 this is sort of like

00:25:26.520 the reaction that you see.

00:25:27.880 They go and protest,

00:25:29.200 the government just goes down

00:25:30.440 even harder against them,

00:25:31.580 and this might be

00:25:32.800 a downside

00:25:33.900 of the articles,

00:25:35.160 if you will.

00:25:35.980 There is nothing

00:25:36.620 stopping Massachusetts

00:25:37.520 from doing this.

00:25:38.920 If Massachusetts wanted to,

00:25:40.360 so long as it was still

00:25:41.240 technically a Republican

00:25:42.420 constitution,

00:25:43.220 they could have

00:25:45.040 completely eliminated

00:25:46.540 any redress

00:25:48.240 for these,

00:25:48.920 for these Western

00:25:50.080 protesters.

00:25:52.380 So,

00:25:53.300 we could get into

00:25:54.080 the basic political

00:25:55.060 philosophy there,

00:25:55.740 I don't know if you want to,

00:25:56.760 but that's a,

00:25:57.680 it's just some,

00:25:58.700 one downside here.

00:26:00.280 In theory,

00:26:01.360 if you didn't like it,

00:26:02.180 you would leave

00:26:02.660 for another state,

00:26:03.380 but that's not exactly

00:26:04.180 the best solution

00:26:05.040 if you've been there

00:26:05.960 for,

00:26:06.760 you know,

00:26:07.340 over a century at that point,

00:26:08.620 you've developed your state,

00:26:09.820 so.

00:26:10.860 Yeah,

00:26:11.580 yeah,

00:26:11.840 this is always the problem

00:26:12.740 with exit as the solution,

00:26:14.400 right,

00:26:14.680 is assuming that people

00:26:15.620 can just pick up and go,

00:26:17.000 yeah,

00:26:17.160 that's what it sounds like,

00:26:18.240 you know,

00:26:18.460 vote with your feet,

00:26:19.220 sounds great.

00:26:20.260 Maybe as modern people

00:26:21.660 who aren't,

00:26:23.260 you know,

00:26:23.560 terribly rooted to our land

00:26:25.040 the way that a farmer was

00:26:26.340 and can,

00:26:27.240 you know,

00:26:27.420 get across state lines

00:26:28.560 in a matter of a few hours,

00:26:30.140 that sounds like

00:26:31.140 a pretty feasible thing,

00:26:32.180 but for somebody

00:26:33.040 who makes their living

00:26:34.000 in the dirt,

00:26:35.100 who would have had to,

00:26:36.340 you know,

00:26:36.660 make an arduous trip

00:26:37.800 to make this move

00:26:39.040 and would have basically

00:26:39.740 had to rearrange their life

00:26:40.760 to do this,

00:26:41.540 it's not that simple.

00:26:42.540 And like you said,

00:26:43.160 this is becoming

00:26:43.780 very unpopular,

00:26:44.800 which is why

00:26:46.440 the governor here

00:26:47.300 runs into a big problem

00:26:48.600 because,

00:26:49.180 you know,

00:26:50.040 the United States

00:26:50.880 doesn't really have

00:26:51.960 a standing army

00:26:52.920 at this point.

00:26:54.820 There's really only

00:26:55.700 a few hundred guys

00:26:56.920 that they even have

00:26:58.120 the option of wielding,

00:26:59.040 that many of these protests

00:27:00.020 are long,

00:27:00.760 literally larger

00:27:01.640 than the U.S. Army

00:27:02.800 at this point.

00:27:03.980 And so the governor

00:27:05.140 decides that he wants

00:27:06.680 to have a kind of

00:27:08.160 a militia,

00:27:08.940 a state militia

00:27:09.420 to protect this.

00:27:10.180 So he attempts

00:27:11.500 to go to

00:27:12.580 the Massachusetts

00:27:13.480 legislature

00:27:14.620 to kind of

00:27:15.680 levy this militia.

00:27:18.160 But it turns out

00:27:19.080 that most of these

00:27:19.760 politicians understand

00:27:20.640 how unpopular

00:27:21.440 throughout the state

00:27:22.600 these measures

00:27:23.540 are becoming.

00:27:24.640 And most of them

00:27:25.240 don't want to risk

00:27:26.120 their own kind of hide

00:27:27.880 in their elections

00:27:29.000 and maybe even

00:27:30.540 their safety

00:27:31.100 if they're putting

00:27:32.160 themselves out there

00:27:33.060 to raise a militia.

00:27:34.280 So the governor

00:27:35.060 actually fails

00:27:36.060 to raise a militia

00:27:37.660 to stop

00:27:38.340 kind of these protests.

00:27:40.700 And so he decides

00:27:41.980 that instead

00:27:42.780 he's going to try

00:27:44.280 to create

00:27:44.700 a private army.

00:27:45.960 He's basically

00:27:46.380 going to create

00:27:47.640 a mercenary force

00:27:48.820 to go after

00:27:50.880 these guys.

00:27:51.380 And so he puts

00:27:52.080 some of his own

00:27:52.720 money down

00:27:53.320 and starts raising

00:27:54.380 money from

00:27:55.040 the business community,

00:27:56.660 from the East

00:27:58.400 Coasters,

00:27:59.460 from the Bostonites,

00:28:00.540 from the industrialists

00:28:02.280 and the dock guys

00:28:04.560 and things

00:28:05.020 to go ahead

00:28:06.060 and start raising

00:28:07.620 money to kind of

00:28:08.500 send a force

00:28:09.980 after these guys.

00:28:12.840 The government

00:28:13.540 is aware

00:28:14.260 that there is

00:28:15.280 an armory

00:28:16.080 in Springfield.

00:28:17.460 There's a government

00:28:18.000 armory in Springfield

00:28:19.140 and that if

00:28:20.520 these guys

00:28:21.120 kind of organize

00:28:22.000 and go after

00:28:22.640 that armory

00:28:23.500 then they could have

00:28:24.280 a much bigger

00:28:24.980 kind of problem

00:28:25.920 on their hands.

00:28:27.320 And so to go ahead

00:28:27.960 and meet this

00:28:29.080 challenge,

00:28:30.400 the governor,

00:28:31.160 it takes him a while

00:28:31.920 but eventually

00:28:32.380 he is able

00:28:33.300 to kind of

00:28:34.180 raise the funds

00:28:34.880 and create

00:28:35.680 this mercenary

00:28:36.360 force to kind

00:28:38.000 of go in

00:28:39.200 and try to stop

00:28:40.400 what is quickly

00:28:41.140 becoming a

00:28:42.040 paramilitary organization

00:28:43.560 under Daniel Shea.

00:28:45.480 When does fast

00:28:46.640 grocery delivery

00:28:47.460 through Instacart

00:28:48.260 matter most?

00:28:49.200 When your famous

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00:28:50.740 potato salad

00:28:51.540 isn't so famous

00:28:52.540 without the grainy

00:28:53.240 mustard?

00:28:54.040 When the barbecue's

00:28:54.900 lit but there's

00:28:55.660 nothing to grill?

00:28:56.720 When the in-laws

00:28:57.480 decide that actually

00:28:58.640 they will stay

00:28:59.560 for dinner?

00:28:59.980 Instacart has

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00:29:10.460 Service fees

00:29:10.800 exclusions

00:29:11.400 and terms apply.

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00:29:13.160 groceries that

00:29:14.260 over deliver.

00:29:16.700 Right, exactly

00:29:17.760 and it might also

00:29:18.700 be worth noting

00:29:19.520 around this time

00:29:21.420 you mentioned

00:29:23.020 that they couldn't

00:29:23.660 raise an army

00:29:24.240 to actually defend

00:29:25.040 against anything

00:29:25.620 that was going

00:29:26.060 to happen here.

00:29:26.740 so the Massachusetts

00:29:28.780 government basically

00:29:30.180 just says

00:29:30.800 alright we're just

00:29:32.380 going to close the

00:29:33.040 courts to make sure

00:29:33.680 this can't exacerbate

00:29:34.740 any harder.

00:29:35.980 Which sounds like

00:29:38.060 it might be a win

00:29:39.400 for these people

00:29:40.120 if they're being

00:29:40.540 foreclosed upon

00:29:41.280 by the courts

00:29:41.900 but in actuality

00:29:43.220 all that means

00:29:43.740 is that now

00:29:44.440 everything's just

00:29:45.020 in limbo.

00:29:46.580 Whatever has

00:29:47.180 happened has

00:29:47.640 still happened.

00:29:48.640 It could happen

00:29:49.400 again at any

00:29:49.980 point in time

00:29:50.560 whenever these

00:29:51.080 courts are

00:29:51.620 restored come

00:29:52.760 the deadline.

00:29:54.320 It's just

00:29:54.740 really what it

00:29:55.640 was was a way

00:29:56.400 to get

00:29:56.800 Massachusetts

00:29:57.360 officials

00:29:58.140 and bureaucrats

00:29:58.860 and judges

00:29:59.300 and whatever else

00:30:00.100 out of the courts

00:30:01.380 so that there

00:30:02.280 wouldn't be any

00:30:02.800 sort of an

00:30:03.180 altercation there

00:30:04.000 as this

00:30:04.640 militia force

00:30:07.300 formulates

00:30:09.180 actually solidifies

00:30:10.860 itself.

00:30:12.380 So

00:30:12.480 this is also

00:30:14.160 where we start

00:30:14.680 seeing our

00:30:15.120 leaders form

00:30:15.740 whenever these

00:30:16.360 people actually

00:30:17.920 arm and organize

00:30:19.220 in whatever ways

00:30:20.720 they can

00:30:21.240 which would

00:30:22.700 include our

00:30:23.620 chaise

00:30:25.040 our great

00:30:26.320 debtor

00:30:26.700 from

00:30:26.940 Penham

00:30:28.420 or something

00:30:28.720 like that

00:30:29.060 or Pelham

00:30:29.520 yeah Pelham

00:30:30.600 so

00:30:31.580 a debtor

00:30:32.620 himself

00:30:33.080 a veteran

00:30:34.080 from the

00:30:34.500 Revolutionary

00:30:35.200 War

00:30:35.480 two things

00:30:36.100 that really

00:30:36.420 should not

00:30:36.840 have happened

00:30:37.400 and most

00:30:38.340 people could

00:30:38.840 see this

00:30:39.220 which is why

00:30:39.620 this is growing

00:30:40.140 increasingly

00:30:40.680 unpopular

00:30:41.260 it's a very

00:30:43.040 similar sentiment

00:30:43.940 that you could

00:30:44.560 find today

00:30:45.320 whenever you see

00:30:47.000 a bunch of

00:30:47.420 people come back

00:30:48.080 from wars

00:30:48.680 whatever they

00:30:49.280 may be

00:30:49.840 and you

00:30:51.440 learn later

00:30:52.380 that they

00:30:52.660 have a

00:30:52.920 suicide

00:30:53.240 epidemic

00:30:53.800 they have

00:30:54.180 an opioid

00:30:54.580 epidemic

00:30:55.100 and whatever

00:30:55.520 else

00:30:55.940 it's not a

00:30:56.920 very popular

00:30:57.460 look for the

00:30:58.240 governments of

00:30:58.780 these places

00:30:59.240 where they're

00:30:59.580 happening

00:31:00.000 very similar

00:31:01.440 sentiments

00:31:01.960 except even

00:31:02.920 worse because

00:31:03.960 this is the

00:31:04.420 Revolutionary War

00:31:05.340 everyone knew

00:31:06.240 somebody that

00:31:06.760 fought

00:31:07.100 died

00:31:07.640 and was

00:31:08.860 injured

00:31:09.140 mutilated

00:31:09.640 or whatever

00:31:10.100 else

00:31:10.540 so imagine

00:31:12.200 your modern

00:31:12.920 sentiments

00:31:13.500 surrounding

00:31:13.840 veterans

00:31:14.240 and their

00:31:14.740 plights

00:31:15.180 times ten

00:31:16.180 this is what's

00:31:17.360 happening to the

00:31:18.040 Massachusetts

00:31:18.340 state government

00:31:19.120 so they lock

00:31:20.060 down the

00:31:20.400 courts

00:31:20.700 these

00:31:21.640 militias

00:31:22.260 start getting

00:31:22.760 their own

00:31:23.160 leaders

00:31:23.540 and what do

00:31:25.760 these Massachusetts

00:31:26.280 courts do

00:31:27.180 well they start

00:31:27.860 or the Massachusetts

00:31:29.560 government do

00:31:30.180 they start

00:31:30.620 throwing around

00:31:31.180 the ideas

00:31:31.720 of offering

00:31:33.620 concessions

00:31:34.420 token concessions

00:31:35.380 to these

00:31:35.800 organizing militias

00:31:36.940 before they do

00:31:37.520 anything in hopes

00:31:38.160 that they'll stand

00:31:38.740 down

00:31:39.200 so I believe

00:31:40.940 one of the

00:31:41.320 measures that

00:31:41.720 was taken

00:31:42.280 was that

00:31:43.680 taxes and

00:31:44.660 debts

00:31:44.940 could no

00:31:46.160 longer have

00:31:46.680 to be paid

00:31:47.100 in specie

00:31:48.300 you didn't

00:31:49.320 just have

00:31:49.820 to pay

00:31:50.080 in gold

00:31:50.400 or silver

00:31:50.900 you could

00:31:51.580 pay in

00:31:51.820 commodity

00:31:52.240 which was

00:31:53.600 kind of

00:31:53.940 like

00:31:54.180 putting some

00:31:57.080 sweetener

00:31:57.560 in rat

00:31:58.120 poison

00:31:58.480 before you

00:31:58.920 force someone

00:31:59.420 to eat

00:31:59.800 it

00:32:00.080 because

00:32:01.200 you still

00:32:01.920 had

00:32:02.360 revocation

00:32:03.200 of all

00:32:03.940 these rights

00:32:05.420 right to

00:32:06.740 a trial

00:32:07.040 by jury

00:32:07.620 habeas

00:32:08.760 corpus

00:32:09.200 the freedom

00:32:10.020 of the press

00:32:10.420 was completely

00:32:10.920 destroyed

00:32:11.460 something that

00:32:12.240 most of these

00:32:12.780 people supported

00:32:13.580 you had

00:32:14.820 all of these

00:32:15.460 suits that

00:32:16.520 were still

00:32:16.840 up against

00:32:17.340 them

00:32:17.660 that could

00:32:18.760 be brought

00:32:19.220 against them

00:32:19.640 at any

00:32:19.900 time

00:32:20.180 so I'm

00:32:20.500 not even

00:32:20.860 most of

00:32:21.560 them weren't

00:32:22.280 entirely sure

00:32:23.280 that they could

00:32:23.720 fund their

00:32:24.400 debts by just

00:32:25.220 commodity

00:32:25.680 so it was

00:32:27.040 what it was

00:32:27.560 was a pressure

00:32:28.080 release valve

00:32:28.720 if you want

00:32:29.120 to think of

00:32:29.520 it that way

00:32:30.140 and there

00:32:31.860 were a few

00:32:32.240 other

00:32:32.520 there were a

00:32:34.360 few other

00:32:34.680 concessions given

00:32:35.420 as well that

00:32:35.940 don't come to

00:32:36.860 mind immediately

00:32:37.460 but that was

00:32:37.940 the big one

00:32:38.580 they did not

00:32:40.100 stand down

00:32:40.660 by the way

00:32:41.220 yeah

00:32:42.180 Shay ends up

00:32:43.220 sending a

00:32:43.960 letter with

00:32:45.620 some of the

00:32:46.140 demands of

00:32:47.080 the rebels

00:32:47.700 I think it's

00:32:48.880 actually like one

00:32:49.640 of the few

00:32:50.040 primary sources

00:32:50.700 we have from

00:32:51.360 Shay but his

00:32:52.980 demands are

00:32:53.440 more in line

00:32:54.200 of hey

00:32:55.420 you need to

00:32:56.100 move the

00:32:56.420 courthouse from

00:32:57.620 Boston over

00:32:58.560 here to

00:32:59.720 Springfield you

00:33:00.500 know so it's

00:33:00.960 actually somewhere

00:33:01.660 near our

00:33:03.620 actually so we

00:33:04.500 can actually get

00:33:05.100 you know judges

00:33:06.300 and juries and

00:33:08.160 such that are

00:33:08.780 actually interested

00:33:10.060 in our cause

00:33:10.700 and familiar to

00:33:11.360 our locality

00:33:12.060 he also funny

00:33:13.280 enough suggests

00:33:14.280 hey you guys

00:33:15.100 love paying off

00:33:15.720 war debts with

00:33:16.320 all the backs

00:33:16.920 of the farmers

00:33:17.340 why don't we

00:33:18.280 just end up

00:33:18.900 selling Boston

00:33:19.520 Harbor

00:33:19.820 we'll just so

00:33:20.960 that's one of

00:33:21.500 his demands is

00:33:22.680 that they sell

00:33:24.000 off some of

00:33:25.300 the east coast

00:33:25.880 assets of

00:33:27.200 Massachusetts in

00:33:28.240 order to pay

00:33:28.980 for this so

00:33:29.500 it's very clear

00:33:30.500 that you know

00:33:31.620 this was not

00:33:32.380 going to get

00:33:32.780 solved you know

00:33:34.100 by some kind

00:33:35.040 of small

00:33:36.020 concession one

00:33:36.920 direction or the

00:33:37.660 other and

00:33:38.160 and so we

00:33:38.740 start seeing

00:33:39.420 the kind of

00:33:40.220 the formation

00:33:40.720 of this

00:33:41.180 paramilitary

00:33:41.960 Daniel Shay

00:33:43.720 like he said

00:33:44.060 is a veteran

00:33:44.460 I believe he's

00:33:44.920 a colonel

00:33:45.440 but I'm not

00:33:45.780 exactly sure

00:33:46.520 there's there's

00:33:47.800 also two other

00:33:48.740 veteran military

00:33:51.800 officers who

00:33:53.620 are leading

00:33:54.200 that kind of

00:33:54.640 break this into

00:33:55.280 three divisions

00:33:56.160 of the of

00:33:58.420 the Shays

00:33:58.820 rebellion

00:33:59.300 remember these

00:34:00.660 guys aren't

00:34:01.160 just random

00:34:01.920 farmers with

00:34:02.540 pitchforks

00:34:03.220 these are all

00:34:03.760 you know the

00:34:04.500 majority of them

00:34:05.040 are revolutionary

00:34:06.560 war veterans

00:34:07.360 these are

00:34:07.700 people who

00:34:08.100 have drilled

00:34:09.420 they have

00:34:09.960 fought in

00:34:10.460 significant

00:34:10.880 battles

00:34:11.280 they have

00:34:11.620 faced a

00:34:12.020 far superior

00:34:12.500 military

00:34:13.020 and so the

00:34:14.340 government is

00:34:14.820 right to be

00:34:15.280 worried about

00:34:15.680 these people

00:34:16.120 it's not just

00:34:16.880 a you know

00:34:17.700 the backwards

00:34:18.300 yokels coming

00:34:18.980 at you with

00:34:19.660 you know

00:34:20.240 whatever hunting

00:34:21.140 ref that's

00:34:21.720 sitting around

00:34:22.240 you know

00:34:22.920 these are guys

00:34:23.700 who are drained

00:34:24.280 who are trained

00:34:25.560 they're drilled

00:34:26.200 they're they're

00:34:27.500 they're veterans

00:34:28.220 they're led by

00:34:29.560 military commanders

00:34:30.500 who have a

00:34:31.160 significant amount

00:34:31.820 of experience

00:34:32.560 they're well

00:34:33.620 respected

00:34:34.180 and so they

00:34:35.580 start they

00:34:36.700 kind of start

00:34:37.160 marching on

00:34:37.860 this armory

00:34:38.440 the government

00:34:38.860 you know

00:34:39.440 kind of

00:34:39.760 correctly

00:34:40.820 guess that

00:34:41.760 that would

00:34:42.060 be the

00:34:42.360 target

00:34:42.700 because the

00:34:43.780 the private

00:34:44.200 military

00:34:44.740 the kind

00:34:45.460 of mercenary

00:34:45.860 force has

00:34:46.680 the advantage

00:34:47.180 of what you

00:34:47.920 guess for

00:34:48.500 for a hired

00:34:49.540 military they

00:34:50.340 have the

00:34:50.760 advantage of

00:34:51.340 arms right

00:34:51.860 they have the

00:34:52.280 advantage of

00:34:53.440 having artillery

00:34:54.860 and more

00:34:56.480 sophisticated arms

00:34:57.600 even though

00:34:58.860 the the

00:34:59.540 veterans

00:35:00.060 themselves

00:35:00.480 are well

00:35:01.660 practiced

00:35:02.140 they still

00:35:03.340 don't have

00:35:03.900 that level

00:35:04.480 of kind

00:35:05.460 of arm

00:35:06.360 superiority

00:35:07.000 and so

00:35:07.740 they're hoping

00:35:08.120 that by

00:35:08.460 raiding

00:35:08.960 the the

00:35:10.100 armory

00:35:10.480 itself

00:35:10.960 they'll be

00:35:11.580 able to

00:35:11.840 kind of

00:35:12.080 go toe

00:35:12.600 to toe

00:35:13.160 with kind

00:35:15.280 of the

00:35:15.640 the force

00:35:16.140 that has

00:35:16.460 been brought

00:35:17.100 by the

00:35:17.460 massachusetts

00:35:18.040 government

00:35:18.620 or rather

00:35:19.820 by the

00:35:20.200 the governor

00:35:20.680 kind of

00:35:21.180 through this

00:35:21.800 mercenary

00:35:22.200 force

00:35:22.600 but they

00:35:23.460 end up

00:35:23.680 not getting

00:35:24.100 there in

00:35:24.480 time

00:35:24.740 one of

00:35:25.320 one of

00:35:25.640 the

00:35:25.920 one of

00:35:27.380 the

00:35:27.660 battalions

00:35:28.680 or you

00:35:29.480 know units

00:35:29.900 does not

00:35:30.360 reach the

00:35:31.920 armory in

00:35:32.380 time and

00:35:32.980 it ends up

00:35:33.400 being seized

00:35:34.120 by the

00:35:35.080 proficient

00:35:35.920 military force

00:35:36.940 and not

00:35:37.660 the rebels

00:35:38.160 themselves

00:35:38.640 right and

00:35:40.260 it's also

00:35:41.520 around this

00:35:42.280 time as

00:35:42.660 well that

00:35:42.980 we start

00:35:43.400 the

00:35:44.340 paramilitary

00:35:45.580 starts actually

00:35:46.380 naming names

00:35:47.440 of people

00:35:48.820 that they

00:35:49.140 oppose like

00:35:49.780 they actually

00:35:50.160 solidify who

00:35:51.040 they're up

00:35:51.420 against so

00:35:51.980 on top of

00:35:52.880 the very

00:35:53.840 nationalistic

00:35:54.500 governor of

00:35:55.100 massachusetts

00:35:55.620 at the time

00:35:56.260 baldoin or

00:35:57.720 something like

00:35:58.140 that i want

00:35:59.000 to say

00:35:59.300 starts to

00:35:59.800 be you

00:36:00.820 also have

00:36:01.420 a reverend

00:36:03.700 and a

00:36:04.960 other

00:36:05.440 revolutionary

00:36:06.200 war veteran

00:36:07.520 that was a

00:36:08.200 both were

00:36:08.900 very big in

00:36:09.540 massachusetts

00:36:10.040 politics

00:36:10.780 both were

00:36:12.800 sort of on

00:36:13.500 this the

00:36:14.720 higher class

00:36:15.460 power group

00:36:16.320 all three of

00:36:18.260 them were

00:36:18.560 advocating for

00:36:19.360 the policies

00:36:19.880 that led to

00:36:20.420 this but

00:36:21.520 that the

00:36:23.040 fact that they

00:36:23.580 were targeting

00:36:24.040 a reverend

00:36:24.700 a minister

00:36:26.340 it shows

00:36:28.040 something else

00:36:28.820 here

00:36:29.120 these nationalistic

00:36:30.480 groups tended

00:36:31.060 to be very

00:36:31.580 pro-clerical

00:36:32.500 the anti-nationalistic

00:36:34.960 or the anti-federalist

00:36:35.920 groups tended to be

00:36:36.720 very anti-clerical

00:36:37.760 in a very

00:36:38.380 traditional

00:36:38.980 american fashion

00:36:39.900 if you look at

00:36:41.500 america compared

00:36:42.760 to other european

00:36:43.780 countries if you

00:36:44.520 were to compare

00:36:45.360 them to the

00:36:45.780 founding stocks

00:36:46.560 america tends

00:36:48.540 to be much more

00:36:49.120 anti-clerical

00:36:49.880 they tend to have

00:36:50.800 a very inherent

00:36:51.840 distrust to

00:36:53.700 invested authority

00:36:54.740 given to clergy

00:36:57.060 and this is going

00:36:58.580 to rear here

00:36:59.660 and it's also

00:37:00.120 going to be

00:37:00.880 sort of a

00:37:01.520 foreshadowing

00:37:02.480 to the later

00:37:04.300 document in the

00:37:04.960 constitution

00:37:05.360 due to the

00:37:06.700 extreme clerical

00:37:07.560 influence that you

00:37:08.320 will see given

00:37:09.820 to it

00:37:10.220 but that's just

00:37:11.260 a little bit

00:37:11.760 of a connection

00:37:12.400 there for the

00:37:12.920 future

00:37:13.280 whenever you

00:37:15.120 look at the

00:37:16.980 fact that these

00:37:17.520 people are trying

00:37:18.200 to seize an

00:37:18.660 armory and

00:37:19.200 stage an actual

00:37:19.940 uprising you

00:37:21.000 start to see

00:37:21.560 rhetoric being

00:37:22.720 passed around

00:37:23.420 from the media

00:37:24.280 that was

00:37:24.640 associated with

00:37:25.720 the massachusetts

00:37:27.400 state government

00:37:28.640 faction who

00:37:30.140 are tell me if

00:37:33.240 you've ever heard

00:37:33.680 this one before

00:37:34.240 they're claiming

00:37:34.660 that any any

00:37:35.820 sort of action

00:37:36.520 taken against

00:37:37.200 the massachusetts

00:37:37.860 state government

00:37:38.480 is a foreign

00:37:39.360 provocation

00:37:40.120 particularly the

00:37:42.520 british government

00:37:43.200 was a was

00:37:44.380 inciting this

00:37:45.300 evil rebellion

00:37:46.540 against the

00:37:47.200 legitimacy of

00:37:48.040 the massachusetts

00:37:48.640 state government

00:37:49.320 not russia this

00:37:50.080 time no russian

00:37:51.100 threat no yeah

00:37:52.200 no russo but

00:37:53.200 yeah right so

00:37:54.400 um this is

00:37:55.780 something that

00:37:56.180 happened it

00:37:56.720 didn't really

00:37:57.080 catch on because

00:37:57.800 there was no

00:37:58.580 proof at all

00:37:59.460 um and uh

00:38:01.640 almost certainly

00:38:02.600 was not the

00:38:03.500 case um but

00:38:04.700 that was a that

00:38:05.420 was a card they

00:38:06.200 pulled here um

00:38:07.240 and it while it

00:38:08.280 was uh still new

00:38:09.080 while it was uh

00:38:09.780 you didn't have to

00:38:10.400 provide proof just

00:38:11.160 the uh fact that

00:38:11.960 it was suggested

00:38:12.580 was inflammatory um

00:38:14.260 it caught on with

00:38:15.180 the more nationalistic

00:38:16.060 elements um who um

00:38:18.980 a way that uh most

00:38:21.120 history classes will

00:38:21.960 teach these two

00:38:22.900 factions the

00:38:23.800 anti-federalists and

00:38:24.840 the federalists the

00:38:25.700 nationalist business

00:38:26.840 men versus the

00:38:27.560 planters is that the

00:38:29.340 northern nationalist

00:38:30.300 business men tend to

00:38:31.220 be very anglophile

00:38:32.240 um this comes about

00:38:33.940 later and it's in

00:38:35.080 terms of government

00:38:35.860 structure and not

00:38:37.040 necessarily in terms

00:38:38.060 of uh geopolitics um

00:38:39.960 so these nationalists

00:38:41.080 in the north um could

00:38:42.820 very well claim that it

00:38:44.000 was perfidious albion

00:38:45.100 uh to use a uh

00:38:46.940 anachronism uh that

00:38:48.560 was inciting this

00:38:49.440 rebellion in the

00:38:50.220 western massachusetts

00:38:51.100 reason uh while still

00:38:53.080 being uh more amenable

00:38:55.520 to a sort of more

00:38:56.480 british style of

00:38:57.540 government um one

00:38:59.720 that would be much

00:39:00.340 more aristocratic in

00:39:01.460 nature because that

00:39:02.160 would protect their

00:39:02.680 interests that would

00:39:03.700 protect their economic

00:39:04.720 and political interests

00:39:05.900 uh so you see these

00:39:07.100 interesting uh forces

00:39:08.440 come into a

00:39:09.200 convergence here

00:39:09.860 clericalism versus

00:39:10.780 anti-clericalism the

00:39:12.420 nationalists versus

00:39:13.240 anti-nationalists that

00:39:14.280 we've been discussing

00:39:15.060 um and then also now

00:39:16.980 uh sort of like a

00:39:18.220 foreign policy issue

00:39:19.420 if you will uh pro

00:39:21.240 british or anti-british

00:39:22.520 or neutral uh all of

00:39:24.260 these things sort of

00:39:24.880 come up here uh spring

00:39:26.320 to the forefront they

00:39:27.120 had been in the

00:39:27.620 background for uh for

00:39:29.280 so long and now it's

00:39:30.300 uh it's actually coming

00:39:31.420 up to the uh to the

00:39:32.680 surface so with the

00:39:35.320 failure to kind of seize

00:39:36.700 the armory uh the the

00:39:38.740 shaves really and kind of

00:39:40.100 falls apart uh the

00:39:41.600 mercenary force has has

00:39:43.240 those uh weapons in

00:39:44.680 hand and what we see

00:39:46.660 is uh daniel shay ends

00:39:48.160 up fleeing massachusetts

00:39:49.540 uh he comes back later

00:39:51.480 here uh because uh john

00:39:53.620 hancock actually uh

00:39:55.280 becomes the governor of

00:39:56.780 massachusetts and he

00:39:58.020 does so by running uh

00:39:59.960 kind of in favor of

00:40:01.840 maybe not the rebellion

00:40:03.140 itself but but sympathetic

00:40:04.640 to uh understanding i

00:40:06.440 don't think that's really

00:40:07.180 han where hancock kind of

00:40:09.180 fell in this but he knew

00:40:10.600 it was good politics at the

00:40:11.640 time he knew what was

00:40:12.560 popular and what

00:40:13.180 wasn't he knew where

00:40:14.300 the votes were and so

00:40:15.700 he kind of ran on this

00:40:16.700 promise of uh pardoning

00:40:18.500 uh the shayites uh then

00:40:20.680 you know and uh daniel

00:40:22.120 shay and uh the rest of

00:40:23.500 the uh veterans who had

00:40:25.620 been part of this rebellion

00:40:27.200 end up getting uh pardon

00:40:29.280 now funny enough i told

00:40:30.540 you we'd come back to sam

00:40:31.380 adams now sam adams is

00:40:33.240 furious about this uh and

00:40:35.040 he actually demands uh the

00:40:36.840 execution of uh these

00:40:39.160 rebels uh which is funny

00:40:40.740 because you know we're

00:40:41.580 just fighting against he's

00:40:43.080 a rebel just a few years

00:40:44.800 earlier uh when it was in

00:40:46.380 his interests and he was a

00:40:47.540 big fan of that and really

00:40:49.180 interestingly uh his his

00:40:51.040 logic on this the reason

00:40:52.460 that he thought that this

00:40:53.860 was it was it was okay to

00:40:55.840 rebel against uh you know

00:40:57.840 britain but not rebel against

00:40:59.760 uh matt the government of

00:41:01.540 massachusetts is he

00:41:02.820 specifically said i can

00:41:04.080 understand why you would

00:41:04.880 pardon a rebel against a

00:41:06.300 king a monarch uh but

00:41:07.840 anyone who rebels against

00:41:09.100 the will of the people

00:41:10.200 the republic uh that

00:41:12.260 that's inexcusable and

00:41:13.660 that should lead to death

00:41:15.240 so we see early on the

00:41:17.060 idea that democracy the

00:41:19.160 voice of the people the

00:41:20.380 republic allows for a

00:41:22.760 viciousness actually and a

00:41:24.500 violence and a a removal

00:41:26.500 of rights in a way that

00:41:28.320 the monarchy does not and

00:41:30.420 so a very very interesting

00:41:31.860 uh early on that our sacred

00:41:33.960 democracy uh was actually

00:41:36.200 invoked by um by people

00:41:38.720 like uh sam adams to

00:41:40.760 justify kind of a harsher

00:41:42.220 crackdown against the

00:41:44.020 rebels in the first place

00:41:45.460 but obviously oh sorry go

00:41:47.960 ahead oh no and i was just

00:41:48.940 going to say very quickly

00:41:49.940 uh this crackdown wasn't

00:41:51.200 just limited to

00:41:51.800 massachusetts they

00:41:52.660 enlisted other state

00:41:53.860 governments nearby

00:41:54.660 particularly connecticut to

00:41:56.400 help stamp out remaining

00:41:57.840 guerrilla forces um and

00:42:00.040 then the only place that

00:42:01.620 took in these uh these

00:42:03.200 rebels uh was an

00:42:04.820 independent vermont that

00:42:06.380 was still independent at

00:42:07.260 the time so uh this is a

00:42:08.980 this isn't like he's

00:42:10.620 saying uh it's not like

00:42:12.560 something bad happened and

00:42:13.780 he's just being

00:42:14.220 particularly inflammatory

00:42:15.340 like they're preparing for

00:42:17.240 a guerrilla war to be

00:42:18.280 waged in the west of

00:42:19.440 massachusetts that

00:42:20.220 requires a multi-state

00:42:21.380 coalition to deal with it

00:42:22.780 uh and then you know

00:42:24.000 vermont is sort of

00:42:24.920 pampering that uh he's a

00:42:26.640 this is a declaration of

00:42:28.380 war against guerrillas is

00:42:29.460 really what it is yeah and

00:42:31.240 so what we see here

00:42:32.500 obviously is um kind of

00:42:35.160 those vested business

00:42:37.200 interests panic right now

00:42:38.960 now these guys actually

00:42:40.240 end up funny enough uh the

00:42:42.200 the private militia that

00:42:44.240 was originally funded by

00:42:46.000 kind of the businessmen the

00:42:47.200 merchant class the the

00:42:48.440 the industrialists uh in uh

00:42:51.060 in eastern massachusetts

00:42:52.400 ends up getting paid for

00:42:54.660 out of the tax money they

00:42:55.940 end up getting reimbursed by

00:42:58.060 the state uh for funding the

00:43:00.440 mercenary force and so

00:43:01.880 even gross grosser than

00:43:03.540 the than the massive taxes

00:43:05.220 that were leveled on the

00:43:06.240 farmers those taxes went to

00:43:08.340 pay the military the private

00:43:10.640 military that eventually was

00:43:11.720 sent to shoot them so they

00:43:13.560 paid off their own

00:43:14.440 pinkertons with the taxes

00:43:16.140 collected by the very

00:43:18.140 farmers they were going uh to

00:43:20.400 to kind of uh put down and

00:43:22.040 stop the rebellion with so

00:43:23.740 obviously this starts leading

00:43:25.260 us towards the constitution now

00:43:27.580 again most people think of the

00:43:29.120 constitution as the great

00:43:30.900 restrictor of government

00:43:32.840 power the great you know it's

00:43:34.220 separation of powers where

00:43:35.900 we're we're holding government

00:43:37.760 we're keeping it from

00:43:38.540 expanding uh we're using all

00:43:40.560 of these different mechanisms

00:43:41.700 and checks and balances to

00:43:42.960 make sure that it's uh you

00:43:45.180 know that it's not going to

00:43:46.640 consolidate power but in fact

00:43:48.360 the government the uh

00:43:50.440 constitution is created to

00:43:52.880 consolidate power to create a

00:43:55.220 government that would be able

00:43:56.460 to put down rebellions and

00:43:59.100 protect the interests of

00:44:00.800 merchant classes and in

00:44:02.400 developing industrial classes

00:44:04.000 inside the united states uh

00:44:06.380 it's far from being a

00:44:07.520 restriction of power it's

00:44:08.580 actually a consolidation

00:44:10.380 after the articles of

00:44:11.660 confederation prove that it

00:44:13.480 won't allow the elites to

00:44:14.940 easily put down these kind of

00:44:16.740 armed rebellions right and the

00:44:19.000 mere centralization of an

00:44:20.400 authority across all of these

00:44:21.860 different uh states uh benefited

00:44:24.040 each of those high class

00:44:25.660 interests that we talked about

00:44:26.800 the beginning the businessmen

00:44:28.280 now have their potential if

00:44:29.820 this works uh now have their

00:44:31.640 one economic zone one place to

00:44:33.520 lobby uh they can have free

00:44:35.900 interstate commerce one wall of

00:44:38.120 tariffs around the whole

00:44:39.000 country they can expand to

00:44:40.220 whatever state they want to if

00:44:41.960 this works um the uh that's the

00:44:44.360 businessmen uh the statesmen and

00:44:46.240 the politicians now have a

00:44:47.420 stronger authority uh with which

00:44:49.440 they can solidify their power in

00:44:51.300 the government uh something that

00:44:52.920 didn't really exist under the

00:44:54.200 articles under the articles you

00:44:55.580 only had your state government

00:44:56.860 out of the multiple state

00:44:58.620 governments that existed um the

00:45:00.680 clerics and the media um we'll

00:45:03.680 start the clerics first um something

00:45:05.640 that people don't understand

00:45:06.660 because of the way that the

00:45:07.840 doctrine of separation of church

00:45:09.920 and state under the constitution

00:45:11.060 has been corrupted in the modern

00:45:12.520 day uh particularly with its

00:45:14.540 incorporation uh with the

00:45:16.640 incorporation doctrine that came

00:45:18.000 about during the civil rights era

00:45:19.280 um most people would find the

00:45:22.060 idea that um state governments in

00:45:24.140 the united states had an

00:45:25.300 established religion uh most

00:45:27.080 people would find that absolutely

00:45:28.240 insane uh almost unthinkable but

00:45:30.080 this is what existed in

00:45:31.300 particularly the north and parts of

00:45:33.320 the mid-atlantic um you had state

00:45:35.620 churches that could exercise

00:45:38.060 political authority officially um if

00:45:40.820 you are say a baptist from rhode

00:45:42.700 island uh having one uh central body

00:45:47.000 of government uh they could

00:45:48.620 protect that could potentially

00:45:49.960 hamper these religious restrictions

00:45:51.740 on the local level uh would be very

00:45:53.860 beneficial to you because you could

00:45:55.160 go into that state and uh start

00:45:57.240 whatever ministry you want to flee to

00:45:58.800 that state if you needed to uh

00:46:00.580 whatever else uh you could also

00:46:02.820 circumvent anglican regulations in the

00:46:04.800 mid-atlantic in the south uh if you

00:46:07.260 were a puritan or whatever else so um

00:46:09.720 and then the media um the newspapers

00:46:11.660 um they wouldn't have to deal with

00:46:13.520 multiple regulations and uh uh strong

00:46:16.320 powers on each local level

00:46:18.020 potentially trying to go against them

00:46:19.740 something that happened quite often

00:46:21.080 in the colonies and then the uh

00:46:22.520 confederal uh united states um you

00:46:25.860 would instead have a federal

00:46:28.000 government under a constitutional

00:46:29.920 authority if it works um that could

00:46:32.620 protect them and that they could

00:46:33.880 control um something that you

00:46:36.160 particularly and a bunch of our

00:46:37.900 friends are on would mention is that

00:46:39.360 uh the media has a lot of influence

00:46:41.380 over government uh this is still true

00:46:43.800 in the 1700s um just maybe to a

00:46:47.280 slightly lesser extent than now that

00:46:48.900 it's uh uh that it's uh inescapable

00:46:51.660 um newspapers were a very very big thing

00:46:55.480 back then so these media men saw a lot

00:46:58.160 of great opportunity for uh especially

00:47:00.480 exercising and developing power if you

00:47:03.680 centralized authority so it doesn't

00:47:06.240 matter necessarily what the specifics

00:47:07.660 are just so long as each of these

00:47:09.560 groups get a central authority that

00:47:11.880 can knock down the state governments

00:47:13.680 in some way um a a much more stronger

00:47:17.020 and centralized power they get what

00:47:19.120 they want and then conversely uh each

00:47:22.380 of the uh lower class the second

00:47:24.240 category of power the planters the

00:47:26.380 artisans uh the the peasant farmer and

00:47:28.720 whatever else uh would be harmed by the

00:47:31.640 centralization of power for reasons

00:47:33.560 that you can probably surmise

00:47:34.740 so when we see this uh big debate coming

00:47:40.120 together right a lot of us again hear

00:47:42.740 this story about uh the federalists the

00:47:45.360 anti-federalists and kind of the

00:47:46.920 arguments between them and it's you know

00:47:50.080 a lot of people understand that we have

00:47:52.240 these federalist papers where you know

00:47:54.720 madison hamilton and jay uh you know

00:47:57.820 they write these letters and they make

00:47:59.440 these arguments about uh you know why we

00:48:02.340 need to adopt the constitution all these

00:48:04.120 things and most people understand this as

00:48:06.940 a dynamic where then they kind of use

00:48:09.380 these superior arguments to kind of

00:48:11.560 persuade people uh into this but in fact

00:48:14.620 uh most of the federalist papers didn't

00:48:17.040 really have that much reach right they

00:48:19.040 didn't really actually do a whole lot

00:48:21.000 when it came to compelling people one way

00:48:22.740 or another to sign on to this

00:48:24.660 constitution

00:48:25.300 right and uh if you are looking in how

00:48:30.120 this constitution was established as a

00:48:32.100 legitimate authority um the best summary

00:48:35.040 answer that you can give is that it

00:48:36.480 wasn't um it was just kind of imposed and

00:48:38.620 you're expected to go along with it uh

00:48:40.820 regardless of whether you support it or

00:48:42.440 not so um whenever uh history classes

00:48:45.820 historians pop history uh tries to explain

00:48:48.880 that everyone saw that these articles of

00:48:51.520 confederation were inefficient uh they were

00:48:53.700 going to drive the country farther apart they

00:48:55.840 weren't going to defend themselves properly the

00:48:57.840 government was dysfunctional everyone saw

00:48:59.920 this and so we needed a strong central authority

00:49:02.160 uh that is at the very best a half truth and

00:49:05.540 at the worst a flat-out lie um because this

00:49:08.700 uh confederal structure of government was

00:49:10.960 actually popular with people in which the

00:49:13.600 state governments were competent and uh weren't

00:49:16.360 doing what massachusetts did basically um so

00:49:19.080 when you when you look at all of that um this

00:49:23.840 sort of popular history is a complete lie um there

00:49:26.580 is no really legitimate way that this was established

00:49:28.900 and i'm i'm sure we're about to get into that it

00:49:31.320 wasn't like some letters campaign in a classic

00:49:33.440 english liberal style where people are standing on

00:49:35.980 street corners and espousing the virtues of

00:49:37.960 centralized government yeah i mean you know we i

00:49:41.380 believe under the articles of confederation you

00:49:43.640 needed a super majority to do basically anything and you

00:49:46.860 needed a a unanimous vote uh to actually you know change the

00:49:51.900 articles into anything else of course that's not what

00:49:54.480 happened at all uh and so uh actually to this day uh you

00:49:58.100 know funny side thing if you hear people who go through the

00:50:00.740 sovereign citizen uh movement uh who taught you know

00:50:04.060 they're the ones who are like uh you can't actually you know

00:50:06.760 pull me over and give me a speeding ticket because i'm a

00:50:09.080 sovereign citizen and they start quoting stuff

00:50:10.720 they're referencing the uh article the fact that the

00:50:12.940 articles of confederation were never legally abandoned they

00:50:15.760 were they were uh so that they see themselves as still being

00:50:18.820 governed by the articles of confederation which are the

00:50:21.560 true still legitimate uh constitution of the united states

00:50:25.300 and not the uh the usurpation that was

00:50:28.080 the 1790 uh constitution obviously that never stops anything that

00:50:32.500 doesn't help them at all but uh they usually end up just getting

00:50:35.000 beaten up by the cops but it is always funny if you're

00:50:37.220 wondering where they got that idea it's because they

00:50:39.340 they believe that the constitution is entirely invalid and that

00:50:42.840 they're still they're referencing the fact that they still

00:50:44.940 live under the articles of confederation but yeah i mean i guess we

00:50:48.940 could get into the the constitution itself i wasn't going to spend

00:50:52.260 uh too much time on that other than kind of giving the backstory of

00:50:55.640 uh that the main thing i wanted to kind of get to is the constitution then

00:50:59.640 brings us uh into a situation where the government

00:51:02.280 immediately uses its power to stop a rebellion

00:51:05.400 uh in the whiskey rebellion right so the the very uh power that they had

00:51:10.240 wanted to acquire uh they kind of immediately apply when it

00:51:13.720 comes to the whiskey rebellion right and this is the only things i really

00:51:17.060 have to add on the constitution itself besides what you just mentioned where

00:51:20.200 um before it was ratified they used the constitution's method of ratification

00:51:24.440 to make it the legitimate authority they just ignored the articles of

00:51:28.440 confederation altogether um so uh that's that's what always gets me with

00:51:32.800 staunch constitutionalists trying to pretend like this was uh a very judicial

00:51:36.720 and uh natural evolution of common law and whatever else it's

00:51:40.180 it's not um but um something that you see that's very interesting

00:51:44.520 and uh if you uh um albert j knock has a very good uh chapter on this

00:51:50.480 um in our enemy the state is the book um basically

00:51:53.900 after a little while of going through what we've just discussed through his own

00:51:58.080 lens um he talks about the different uh uh the different positions in the new

00:52:03.840 constitutional the new federal government

00:52:05.800 government and uh how they relate to the convention

00:52:08.640 um because once again this convention was not a it was not official

00:52:12.400 um you can if it was any other country um the americans would look at this as a

00:52:17.500 coup d'etat is the best way that i can put this um

00:52:20.280 if this had happened in any other country where

00:52:22.540 uh famous statesmen businessmen merchants and clerics all got together

00:52:27.080 in secret because what they were doing was illegitimate and established a new

00:52:31.140 government and just went along with it

00:52:32.620 um most historians would say this is a coup d'etat um i mean they just kind of

00:52:37.420 appointed george washington president right

00:52:39.320 right and this is this is something interesting george washington was supposed

00:52:43.560 to be like the leader of that convention or the chairman if you will

00:52:46.780 um if you look at all the different um i'll see if i can find specifics but

00:52:51.660 i i encourage people to look on a look at this uh work on their own from albert j

00:52:55.520 knock um basically all major positions in the new government

00:52:59.980 came from delegates at this constitutional convention

00:53:03.740 um i think it's like two-thirds of the new senators

00:53:06.860 were present at the convention same thing with the majority of the new house of

00:53:11.000 representatives uh the major uh departments within the executive branch

00:53:15.600 were i think like three-fourths of them were staffed by uh

00:53:18.780 um people that were present at this convention george washington as we just

00:53:22.140 mentioned was the chairman um so this is a

00:53:25.040 this is for all intents and purposes a coup by uh these nationalistic interests

00:53:30.140 these business clerical media and uh statesman interests

00:53:34.300 that dominated particularly the north

00:53:37.280 um so this is what we're looking at which means that whenever we see

00:53:41.140 a risk a whiskey rebellion over an excise tax

00:53:43.980 pop up immediately afterwards we can kind of already predict the results but i

00:53:48.900 we'll get into it i think right

00:53:50.580 yeah i mean again we don't have to get heavily into it because i wanted to get

00:53:54.280 to the question of kind of our uh our uh stream as well but i guess you kind

00:53:58.360 of already answered it to some extent here

00:54:00.000 um sorry i didn't mean to put the gun

00:54:02.000 it's fine uh but uh eye on the ball that's important

00:54:05.280 uh but yeah i just wanted to kind of point out that the whiskey rebellion happens

00:54:08.700 after this uh again the kind of a

00:54:11.600 the ability of the central government particularly now

00:54:16.200 uh the uh you know the new federal government and uh it's kind of more

00:54:20.640 business uh you know industrialist urban interests

00:54:24.180 uh able to kind of uh extract a large amount of funding

00:54:28.120 from rural people who tended to uh kind of you know either consolidate

00:54:33.000 their uh their uh extra crop into whiskey or uh move rum production up from uh from

00:54:40.760 other areas and so this ends up being something that is immediately in the favor of the north

00:54:45.080 immediately in favor of the urban elite and maybe immediately in favor of the very people

00:54:48.920 who just wrote this coup uh that is now imposing a new tax uh to kind of farm these people

00:54:54.440 who they kind of just uh hoodwinked out of the articles of confederation uh but they have

00:55:00.760 successfully centralized enough power for george washington to personally like lead a force out

00:55:06.000 uh and kind of put down uh the whiskey rebellion before anything significant comes of it

00:55:11.100 right exactly and uh this sort of uh crackdown after the centralization just just to quickly go

00:55:18.540 over this so that we can get to the uh the question that we were uh discussing um you can also see this

00:55:25.180 hasty and almost malicious centralization with the passage of the bill of rights because they were

00:55:30.780 sort of promised at the convention to get some states to go along with it um and the major uh nationalistic

00:55:38.140 or federalist uh proponents were just hoping it would quietly be forgotten um the reason that they

00:55:43.100 were so quickly passed wasn't necessarily because of some strong commitment to ideals by the federalists

00:55:48.220 and the pursuit of uh and the pursuit of uh limited um governmental uh authority and restraint upon its

00:55:54.300 powers though that could definitely be there um you also saw them try to force all these uh

00:56:00.380 amendments in the new constitution through so that there was not a uh a development of people

00:56:06.220 questioning the authority and legitimacy of the constitution and trying to change it further

00:56:11.420 so whenever you see amendments one through ten just get passed almost uh at lightning speed it's not

00:56:17.340 because everyone just agreed this is a great idea in fact most nationalistic elements didn't like the

00:56:22.220 fact that there is a bill of rights um it was a concession that they gave and they're passing it

00:56:27.500 quickly to make sure that these uh anti-federalist forces one get satiated to the point where they don't

00:56:32.380 care anymore and two don't question the very structure of what they're working with here

00:56:36.700 you've already invested yourself in the process right so you've already and once you've already

00:56:41.500 done look you already got these things you already it works you know you made this happen you know

00:56:45.420 don't you want to see these things through and now that you're part of this you know you've

00:56:48.620 you've basically already conceded the legitimacy of the process and now you're just dickering over the

00:56:54.860 details right and there's no room um for them to start saying well uh you know if we need these bill

00:57:01.580 of rights why wasn't it just in the first document or anything else because all their demands are

00:57:06.140 nominally being met um at least as they were interpreted by the nationalistic faction so uh

00:57:12.140 it's a very uh the whiskey rebellion combined with the bill of rights that were quickly added on

00:57:17.740 uh it really just kind of shows how one how expert this uh this constitutional adoption was um there

00:57:26.460 have been many governments in the americas that tried to do something similar and

00:57:31.020 dissolved almost immediately or descended into some sort of chaos uh this was a very expertly done

00:57:36.780 uh centralization of power um but to comment on the moral efficacy of it after you just fought a uh

00:57:43.820 a war of independence against the centralization of power without having some sort of representation

00:57:49.100 and uh you had just uh the country had just been taken over by nationalists or uh federalists

00:57:55.420 uh who were trying to centralize power and take as much uh representation away from these interests

00:58:01.820 uh that were opposed to them uh obviously is not i don't think it would take a uh a strong christian

00:58:09.180 to say that this is immoral um they had basically lied their way through a revolution in order to advance

00:58:14.460 their interests and now they had taken over the country and uh they started to erode away the uh the unique

00:58:21.020 peculiarities of these state governments uh which is something that you'll see throughout american

00:58:25.420 history the earlier back the farther back you go um the more distinct each state looks north carolina

00:58:33.020 and south carolina are different from each other quite extremely and very much different from massachusetts

00:58:38.620 rhode island and connecticut but after you get to like the 1890s or so they've conglomerated into this

00:58:44.540 sort of power block because they have to under the new centralized government it really destroys these uh

00:58:49.580 local identities um which might also be another moral mark against them but that's a something

00:58:54.860 for another time just to sort of add on to what we were discussing here oh 10th amendment you were

00:59:00.140 always a lie uh but yeah so uh now i want to get to the question of the stream you know was the

00:59:05.980 constitution america's first coup now you already kind of said if we saw this in any other uh nation

00:59:11.900 we would say yes so i guess the question i want to go beyond that though and i think this is where

00:59:16.140 it gets interesting but kind of the political theory and power analysis was this inevitable

00:59:23.340 was this centralization of power inevitable because it's really entry easy for us now looking at what

00:59:29.420 has become a global empire um and say you know uh yeah we should have just stuck with the articles

00:59:35.100 of confederation because uh then you know each state could have done its own thing and there never

00:59:40.300 would have been this centralization and there never would have been this like you know drive for

00:59:44.140 conquest and you know we we wouldn't we wouldn't currently be ruled by you know uh the pride mafia

00:59:50.300 you know and dod you know you know a thing that's going on now but um you know if they hadn't done this

00:59:58.940 then it would have been 13 weak uh countries that would have been constantly interacting with larger

01:00:07.020 european empires uh who were very prevalent uh in the area at the time and would would there

01:00:14.300 eventually have been a situation where america basically as smaller states would have just fallen

01:00:19.900 under the influence of other powers not been able to defend itself not be able to kind of assert its own

01:00:26.220 dominance uh or you know kind of kind of what do you think the fallout would be had this not happened

01:00:32.300 right so uh before we get into the the what if there's a great historical irony here because as

01:00:37.420 you mentioned if we had kept the uh articles of confederation it's not very likely that we would

01:00:42.140 have expanded as much as we did um because you you had the uh northwestern treaties and whatever else

01:00:49.020 that had uh uh pre-existed the constitution so we had already expanded quite a lot but there's not

01:00:55.260 really much of a mechanism or a way to go past that if this is your goal um which was definitely the

01:01:01.980 goal of the more anti-nationalistic anti-federalists is they they uh because their interests their ideals

01:01:08.700 and their political philosophy were always looking for some form of expansion um you could see this live

01:01:13.420 on into the uh what would eventually become the democratic party into the 1850s which would explain

01:01:20.060 your mexican-american war why it was started by or regardless of who started why it was prosecuted by

01:01:26.620 uh a democratic president under the guise of manifest destinies because this is what that political

01:01:31.580 philosophy leads to ironically they were supporting a mechanism early on and their uh their progenitors

01:01:38.300 the anti-federalists that would not really have allowed that right and same thing on the opposite end the

01:01:43.900 federalist nationalistic faction uh would collapse after the war of 1812 basically um and re-coalesce

01:01:51.660 eventually in the whig government which quite famously was very isolationist uh very sort of

01:01:56.620 developmental very non-manifest destiny uh in their uh political philosophies uh so these people that

01:02:04.220 wanted a stronger state government which would allow for this expansion by the more uh by the more

01:02:10.060 anti-nationalistic anti-federalist elements uh they they both were kind of supporting the opposite

01:02:16.380 mechanism to achieve what they wanted just purely from a power analysis now um if you were to have

01:02:21.900 kept the articles of confederation um we have seen weaker confederacies survive in more dangerous

01:02:29.100 geopolitical positions um the swiss confederation is quite honestly a miracle in the same way that the

01:02:34.460 formation of uh germany is a unified entity is a miracle on the historical scale um and it's uh

01:02:40.780 mostly due to the fact that these private mercenary armies that as we just discussed even some of the

01:02:45.820 state governments would use to put down their dissenters uh tended to be much more professional

01:02:50.700 much more uh well-equipped uh much better uh than any sort of centralized army was at the time

01:02:56.860 and this could only really be argued to be reversed by the napoleonic wars which was still just a

01:03:01.980 european uh phenomenon for the vast majority of it um i i would say therefore that the articles of

01:03:08.540 confederation would have survived it would just probably be a much smaller country with much less

01:03:13.820 influence uh definitely with a much less geopolitical influence um i would also say um that on the local

01:03:22.860 scale you would probably be dealing with a much more divided uh country given that it stays together it

01:03:29.660 could always just split apart after a while that was one of the concerns one of the concerns by the

01:03:34.140 nationalistic faction was that it would uh the uh union would just split apart um provided it doesn't

01:03:41.180 um it is very possible that you could see a much more tyrannical local level uh uh government from

01:03:48.540 most of these state governments than we see today so instead of having one um very rainbow colored uh state

01:03:55.820 department or whatever else uh trying very weakly to exert itself over all 50 states uh very poorly

01:04:04.380 while meeting local resistance in the uh in the limited ways that we still allow that um it's very

01:04:09.820 possible that you could see one extremely rainbow colored like northeastern block of the country and

01:04:15.740 one very non-rainbow colored southern block of the country or whatever else um some people may desire

01:04:21.100 that um it's uh it does leave up to question what about the people in the northeast who would have

01:04:26.620 opposed that most of these people in western massachusetts are probably not the uh uh the uh

01:04:33.180 heritage stock and the uh philosophers that would lead to that rainbow revolution that we see in our

01:04:38.780 country today uh they would probably find more commonality with the uh uh with the red staters that we

01:04:45.580 would have today um if you could if you could imagine it that way of these people leading down

01:04:50.540 the line to these ideas and different governments that we see right now um most of these people in

01:04:55.100 western massachusetts the whiskey rebellion types uh despite the fact that they were under uh more

01:05:00.460 nationalistic regimes that would have given enough time solidified their control almost absolutely if

01:05:07.020 they wanted to um they probably would not have desired this so they would either be stamped out

01:05:12.380 brushed out or they would have to go along with it it's a very uh uh it's a it's a bleak outlook for

01:05:20.060 anyone that's stuck under these localized tyrannies uh so it's really a question today uh which is more

01:05:26.540 desirable a country where half of it is potentially more free but the other half is just left to rot or

01:05:33.980 what we have today where everyone kind of goes along with this together uh you don't have as much uh local

01:05:39.420 self-determination um but what you do have is a much weaker central authority just due to the scale

01:05:45.260 of the whole thing it's much easier for us to organize now under this government and oppose a central

01:05:50.380 authority all the way in washington dc trying to exert its influence over what's effectively a foreign

01:05:55.660 population in the red states uh than it would be uh for one small localized resistance in like

01:06:02.700 uh massachusetts trying to oppose a much more well-armed and organized state government uh with

01:06:09.500 little to no help from the outside so those are your two uh uh the two things you can pick from there

01:06:14.860 i don't honestly know which one i'd uh i'd accept i kind of uh i feel like the way the uh present

01:06:20.860 situation in which we find ourselves today um is more favorable to a cause that is supportive of liberty and

01:06:26.940 tradition uh just from the simple fact that uh your centralizers of the of the state the centralized

01:06:33.420 federal state um are incompetent and they have really extended their reach probably farther than

01:06:40.140 what they can effectively administer yeah it's always difficult kind of speculating on those uh

01:06:46.140 counterfactuals you know those those hypotheticals but i do i think those are all excellent points

01:06:51.420 and i really do think that it's important for people to realize that either way we would have

01:06:58.620 faced kind of the issue of centralization and globalization um those forces would not have simply

01:07:05.820 not existed if it was not for the kind of unification of the united states as or more centralization

01:07:12.060 of power under the constitution uh so is the constitution a coup yeah kind of um yeah pretty much but uh

01:07:19.900 you know didn't necessarily make uh the country for the worse uh as as ryan pointed out there are

01:07:25.500 many ways it could have gone uh of course all of that is speculation at this point uh but it is a fun

01:07:31.820 thing to to kind of think about and to keep in mind as we kind of look at the situation that we have here

01:07:36.860 all right guys well i think we got to everything i wanted to hit uh before we start to head out here

01:07:42.540 uh ryan is there anywhere you want people to look any work that you have coming up anything you want

01:07:47.340 uh people to look at youtube you know twitter any of that um so i do have a twitter account there's

01:07:52.700 quite a few uh other developments that have been happening there in other spheres of life than u.s

01:07:57.180 history uh at turnip merchant uh and it's also the uh screen name that pops up is ryan turnip seed

01:08:03.820 which is uh the name that you should see here uh find me there i have a pinned thread if you want to

01:08:08.540 catch up on some of that uh some of those other developments um that have been happening in the more

01:08:13.820 religious sphere of life um and then i have a youtube channel also under ryan turnip seed uh we

01:08:19.820 are i used to have a weekly saturday morning stream uh that had uh that i've since discontinued it'll

01:08:26.220 probably be restarting very soon uh once i get back from some of the summer travel that i have to do

01:08:31.900 uh it focuses on religion uh social policy politics and whatever else uh that catches my interest and the

01:08:39.660 interest of my guests uh so you can go find that there's a pretty good back catalog if you enjoyed

01:08:44.860 kind of what aaron and i were discussing today um very much along those lines um and then another few

01:08:51.260 another couple of things is that i have a couple of articles out on mises.org and lrc uh which you can

01:08:58.060 find uh which if you are interested in american history my most recent article for mises.org

01:09:03.420 uh is on the myth of an isolationist foreign policy in the united states uh detailing some

01:09:08.860 of the forgotten interventions that we had before world war one and in the interwar period so if you

01:09:14.540 like uh looking at historical myths uh trying to get american history straight from what actually

01:09:20.140 happened i have a couple of articles over there now uh which you can by all means go and read and

01:09:25.900 i believe that's all that i have at this point in time well ryan's also a member of the old gory club

01:09:31.260 right sorry yeah i have so many things to chill now the uh the old glory club um is a great

01:09:38.380 collection of friends uh if you have been paying attention to our on for any point in time you will

01:09:42.460 see some familiar faces over at the old glory club it is a group of uh of heritage americans uh fighting

01:09:49.660 for uh their interests at least in the intellectual sphere at this point in time uh with more plans

01:09:54.940 going forward uh there is a great catalog at old glory club dot substack uh dot com um and you can

01:10:02.780 find everything there from the uh chronicling uh forgotten history of the united states just for the

01:10:08.700 sake of chronicling it uh to examining some of the great social issues that are present in our time

01:10:14.700 like the trans movement uh like the uh some of the issues facing veterans uh you can find uh comments

01:10:21.580 on the religion of anti-fascism that we have all had to face uh from me charlemagne if i remember

01:10:27.420 correctly also has an article on that over there um it's really just a great uh confederation of our

01:10:33.820 uh good content producers over there thank you for remembering that it would have completely slipped my

01:10:38.620 mind would you say it's a confederation of articles yes yes a confederation of articles uh

01:10:44.060 perfect way to describe it i just couldn't let that go sorry i know it's terrible but you can't set

01:10:49.580 a pun up like that uh it's there's just no other option once you lay it out there all right guys

01:10:53.740 well we're gonna go ahead and wrap this up of course make sure you're checking out all of

01:10:57.900 ryan's work and if this is your first time here please make sure that you go ahead and subscribe and

01:11:03.260 if you'd like to get these broadcasts as podcasts of course you can go ahead and go to your favorite

01:11:08.060 podcast platform and subscribe to the oran mcintyre show when you do make sure that you go ahead and

01:11:13.580 click on those you know ratings leave a review that really helps with all the algorithm magic all right guys

01:11:19.420 we're gonna get going but thanks everybody for coming by and as always i'll talk to you next time

The Auron MacIntyre Show - June 02, 2023

Was the Constitution America's First Coup？｜ Ryan Turnipseed ｜ 6⧸2⧸23

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