The Auron MacIntyre Show - What Broke Libertarianism？｜ Guest： Jeffrey Tucker

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00:00:30.160 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:32.080 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.880 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:38.260 So, like a lot of people, the pandemic hit me pretty hard.

00:00:42.600 My political beliefs were shattered.

00:00:44.780 You know, somebody coming from a conservative background,

00:00:47.320 I looked at everything and said,

00:00:49.020 Bill of Rights, separation of powers.

00:00:50.960 How could this be happening in the United States?

00:00:53.120 But for people who are libertarian,

00:00:55.020 it's even more shocking that this could continue.

00:00:57.680 And that so many people in the libertarian movement stayed silent.

00:01:01.620 My guest had a great piece about this recently,

00:01:04.640 and I wanted to have him on to talk about this.

00:01:07.240 Jeffrey Tucker is the president of the Brownstone Institute.

00:01:10.160 If you've seen libertarians talk about anything anywhere,

00:01:12.640 I'm sure you've seen Jeffrey talking about it.

00:01:15.280 Thank you for joining me today, man.

00:01:17.060 Sure.

00:01:17.500 Hey, and thank you for reading my article,

00:01:19.960 which is called What Broke Libertarianism?

00:01:21.920 And it's a huge article.

00:01:25.220 I'm very happy for you to ask me about any particulars within it.

00:01:28.860 It covers a lot of territory, really,

00:01:31.440 from 1955 all the way to the present and many, many topics.

00:01:36.040 I'm not sure what's most interesting to your readers,

00:01:40.020 but what I do find, first of all, thanks again.

00:01:43.080 Thank you for noticing the piece.

00:01:45.280 I had a prediction before filing it

00:01:48.420 that it would not have any impact at all.

00:01:51.760 And that's for two reasons.

00:01:53.120 One is that it's too comprehensive

00:01:55.920 and libertarians are deeply embarrassed

00:01:57.760 about what happened during COVID.

00:01:59.860 And peace, I think, is actually quite persuasive,

00:02:04.020 very compelling.

00:02:06.340 So they weren't interested in amplifying it.

00:02:11.300 So there's that.

00:02:13.060 The other thing is that nobody really cares.

00:02:16.140 Which is, which sort of makes my point.

00:02:20.840 But that, yeah, that is the most stunning part about it, right,

00:02:23.120 is we are sitting in the aftermath of this

00:02:25.280 and, you know, we're listening to the two major party candidates

00:02:28.720 talking about what should be important to the United States

00:02:32.800 and no one is talking about the lockdowns.

00:02:36.620 No one is talking about the incredible encroachment

00:02:39.040 of the government during this time,

00:02:41.540 partially because Trump's a part of it,

00:02:43.380 because the Democrats, of course, championed it

00:02:45.320 and believed with it.

00:02:46.420 And this would be the moment that you would think

00:02:48.220 that, of course, the libertarians would step up

00:02:50.280 and say, we can fill this gap.

00:02:52.760 There's one obvious glaring issue

00:02:54.160 that is not being addressed.

00:02:55.280 And what a powerful moment for a party

00:02:57.440 that is supposed to be focused on liberty

00:02:59.340 and a small government to really address this.

00:03:01.940 And that's one of the reasons

00:03:03.200 I found your piece so compelling,

00:03:04.920 because it's one of the few libertarian outlets

00:03:08.580 I've seen that are really willing

00:03:09.540 to even address this point at this point.

00:03:11.760 It was strange, too, when the lockdowns happened,

00:03:14.180 because I thought, oh, now here's the long-awaited

00:03:17.060 libertarian moment.

00:03:17.920 Of course, like everything else,

00:03:19.040 the truth was upside down.

00:03:20.680 It killed what was left of libertarianism,

00:03:23.020 if there was anything left.

00:03:24.200 And then probably there wasn't anything left, actually.

00:03:26.300 Which is, so they just didn't respond.

00:03:29.320 And so then libertarianism as a cultural force

00:03:31.800 just faded into nothingness.

00:03:35.300 The Libertarian Party was running a candidate in 2020.

00:03:39.460 She said absolutely nothing about the topic.

00:03:43.020 All the major organizations just urged their memberships

00:03:46.060 to stay home, stay safe.

00:03:49.980 Others were getting pandemic planning largesse

00:03:54.300 via FTX, which is by itself just a sort of a scandal.

00:04:00.080 And others, you know, had been acculturated

00:04:02.440 to this kind of, you know,

00:04:03.660 this sort of careers professionalism,

00:04:05.540 which was that this is too dangerous a topic.

00:04:09.060 And we're just not going to address,

00:04:10.580 we'll wait till it's safe outside

00:04:12.720 and then address it.

00:04:15.220 So there were some libertarian venues

00:04:17.360 that, you know, eventually condemned lockdowns

00:04:20.020 and masking and forced jabs.

00:04:22.520 But only after it became safe to do so.

00:04:27.020 But, you know, the time to intervene

00:04:28.860 and speak out is in the midst of it.

00:04:31.960 But this all began really March 8th, 2020

00:04:35.440 with incredibly with a forced shutdown

00:04:40.140 of a conference called South by Southwest

00:04:42.560 in Austin, Texas,

00:04:43.580 which, you know, had a couple hundred thousand people

00:04:46.220 coming with contracts for hotels, plane flights,

00:04:50.380 exhibitor spaces and, you know, talent

00:04:52.540 and all sorts of things.

00:04:54.520 And the mayor of Austin,

00:04:55.940 about whom we've heard nothing since,

00:04:58.780 just on his own authority,

00:05:00.480 shut down the entire event.

00:05:03.020 I only found out over the weekend

00:05:04.520 that now Southwest is operating

00:05:07.240 mostly from a big contract from the Pentagon.

00:05:10.380 So I have very,

00:05:12.620 I need to look into that a little bit further.

00:05:14.580 But that was designed as a kind of first,

00:05:19.780 you know, it's like a foretaste.

00:05:20.920 Like this is coming to your neighborhood.

00:05:23.240 When that happened on March 8th,

00:05:25.040 and by the way,

00:05:26.040 I had been writing about pandemic planning

00:05:27.780 for 15 years

00:05:28.640 and I knew that lockdowns were possible.

00:05:30.480 I didn't believe that would actually happen,

00:05:32.320 but I knew they were possible.

00:05:34.340 So when that happened on March 8th,

00:05:35.840 my first thought was there are going to be lawsuits

00:05:38.060 for 10 years following this

00:05:40.060 and there's going to be mass outrage

00:05:41.800 and all the libertarians are going to decry

00:05:45.220 the imposition on commerce,

00:05:47.620 on freedom of travel,

00:05:49.140 on contract,

00:05:51.720 you know,

00:05:51.940 abuse of executive authority,

00:05:54.040 this vicious attack on free enterprise

00:05:55.840 and so on.

00:05:56.320 And I wrote a big article about it

00:05:57.620 and I was the only one.

00:05:59.580 It was complete silence.

00:06:01.000 I couldn't believe it.

00:06:02.320 And, you know,

00:06:02.840 that took us through a full week.

00:06:05.920 And then, you know,

00:06:06.900 then on the 12th of March,

00:06:10.400 well, I guess four days later,

00:06:12.240 Trump, you know,

00:06:13.260 just said,

00:06:13.560 oh, you can't fly,

00:06:14.240 by the way,

00:06:14.600 you can't fly to or from Europe now.

00:06:16.520 Everybody,

00:06:17.000 all American citizens have to come home

00:06:18.820 or be stuck abroad.

00:06:20.100 And you can't fly to Australia and New Zealand.

00:06:22.420 Australia and New Zealand

00:06:23.160 can't come here either.

00:06:25.240 And that,

00:06:26.280 then on the 13th

00:06:27.140 was the emergency declaration.

00:06:29.420 And then,

00:06:30.740 then they had two days

00:06:32.280 to prepare for the big

00:06:33.340 press conference on March 16th.

00:06:35.540 That was a Monday,

00:06:36.720 you know,

00:06:36.920 at which Fauci

00:06:37.780 and Scarf Lady

00:06:39.780 and Trump

00:06:40.440 all told everybody to stay home,

00:06:42.100 stay safe.

00:06:43.100 Don't go to bars.

00:06:43.880 Don't go to restaurants.

00:06:44.720 Your churches are closed

00:06:45.640 and so on.

00:06:46.460 And then,

00:06:47.120 you know,

00:06:47.380 the rest is history.

00:06:48.180 It was the ultimate kind of triangulation

00:06:49.720 because Trump did it.

00:06:51.180 He green-lined it.

00:06:52.540 We don't know.

00:06:53.640 And even to this day,

00:06:54.800 we don't entirely know

00:06:55.940 who got to him

00:06:56.920 or how or why it happened.

00:06:59.060 And he's never addressed it

00:07:00.780 directly,

00:07:02.540 apart from saying

00:07:03.220 he did a great job.

00:07:05.860 And so that wrapped

00:07:07.440 in all the Republicans.

00:07:08.600 It was triangulation.

00:07:10.280 And you know what I mean

00:07:11.060 when I say triangulation.

00:07:12.360 Like,

00:07:12.540 this is the way

00:07:13.340 the American ruling class

00:07:14.400 prefers to do things.

00:07:16.520 They like to get,

00:07:17.620 you know,

00:07:19.480 get the counterintuitive thing

00:07:21.480 done by the person

00:07:22.860 you least likely to expect it

00:07:24.600 because otherwise

00:07:25.100 you rally up the partisans,

00:07:27.440 right?

00:07:28.080 Right, absolutely.

00:07:28.740 So in the case of,

00:07:30.180 you know,

00:07:30.540 telecommunications,

00:07:32.540 trucking deregulation

00:07:33.940 and energy deregulation,

00:07:36.460 it was the Carter administration

00:07:37.360 that did it.

00:07:38.440 You know,

00:07:38.680 in the case of

00:07:39.720 the India,

00:07:40.180 the gold standard

00:07:40.900 and the opening to China,

00:07:42.820 it was Nixon who did it.

00:07:45.000 You know,

00:07:45.220 in the case of detente

00:07:46.240 and the mutual agreement

00:07:50.420 to get rid of nuclear weapons,

00:07:51.760 it was Reagan who did it.

00:07:53.720 So this is how it,

00:07:55.900 oh,

00:07:56.080 in the case of welfare reform,

00:07:58.080 it was Clinton who did it,

00:07:59.400 right?

00:07:59.660 So otherwise,

00:08:01.240 you just,

00:08:01.700 you rally up the base too much

00:08:03.700 and you risk your big agenda.

00:08:06.000 So you really want to triangulate

00:08:07.640 for anything that really matters.

00:08:09.880 Well,

00:08:10.360 the thing,

00:08:10.560 the thing I really like about your piece

00:08:12.820 is it touches not just on the pandemic,

00:08:14.740 but several other pillars of libertarianism

00:08:17.180 that have fallen under

00:08:18.680 kind of attack here recently.

00:08:20.780 So I want to,

00:08:21.880 you know,

00:08:22.760 hit the pandemic,

00:08:23.340 but also hit all of these.

00:08:24.520 But before we get to all that,

00:08:25.740 guys,

00:08:26.020 let me tell you a little bit

00:08:26.920 about today's sponsor.

00:08:28.200 After more than 235 years,

00:08:30.180 the radical left is saying

00:08:31.180 that we need saving

00:08:32.300 from the constitution

00:08:33.360 and they're starting

00:08:34.100 by working to end

00:08:35.080 the independence

00:08:35.660 of the Supreme Court.

00:08:36.860 They want to create

00:08:37.440 their own supermajority

00:08:38.580 by packing the court

00:08:39.440 with enough handpicked justices

00:08:40.780 to get the outcome

00:08:41.500 that they want.

00:08:42.560 Even President Biden

00:08:43.380 has gotten into the act

00:08:44.300 by making reforming the court

00:08:45.660 one of his final priorities

00:08:47.080 before he leaves office.

00:08:48.800 But don't be fooled,

00:08:49.980 their end game

00:08:50.580 really is to pack the court.

00:08:52.380 First Liberty

00:08:52.940 calls this assault

00:08:54.040 on the court

00:08:54.680 what it really is,

00:08:55.940 a Supreme Court coup.

00:08:57.180 These extremists

00:08:58.340 want to eliminate

00:08:59.060 the court's conservative majority

00:09:00.600 by packing the Supreme Court

00:09:02.080 with their own

00:09:02.860 handpicked justices

00:09:04.080 to get the outcome

00:09:05.020 that they want.

00:09:06.200 And the frightening thing

00:09:07.000 is that come January,

00:09:08.760 their plan could become

00:09:09.880 our nation's reality.

00:09:11.460 Simple majority votes

00:09:12.460 in the House

00:09:12.960 and the Senate

00:09:13.560 combined with

00:09:14.200 the president's signature

00:09:15.120 could turn their plan

00:09:16.440 to pack the court

00:09:17.180 into law.

00:09:18.140 But right now,

00:09:18.860 if we unite our voices

00:09:19.960 and if we take action together,

00:09:21.780 we can put a stop

00:09:22.540 to the radical left's plan

00:09:23.620 to take control

00:09:24.340 of the Supreme Court.

00:09:25.700 The future of the court

00:09:26.920 of preserving

00:09:27.660 an independent judiciary

00:09:28.660 is literally in our hands.

00:09:31.140 And that's why

00:09:31.600 First Liberty

00:09:32.120 is taking action

00:09:33.140 and we need you to join.

00:09:35.260 With more than

00:09:35.900 one million patriots

00:09:37.020 like you standing

00:09:37.960 for the Supreme Court,

00:09:39.260 we can safeguard

00:09:39.960 the independence

00:09:40.640 of the judiciary

00:09:41.660 just as the Founding Fathers

00:09:43.080 intended.

00:09:44.000 And by saying no

00:09:45.020 to the leftist

00:09:45.740 Supreme Court coup,

00:09:47.000 we can secure

00:09:47.660 the blessings of liberty

00:09:48.620 and protect the future

00:09:49.600 of our constitutional rights

00:09:51.060 for our children

00:09:52.020 and grandchildren.

00:09:53.000 Go to

00:09:53.520 SupremeCourtCoup.com

00:09:55.460 slash Oren.

00:09:56.720 That's

00:09:56.980 SupremeCourtCoup.com

00:09:58.980 slash Oren

00:09:59.980 to learn how you can help

00:10:01.480 stop the radical left's

00:10:02.660 takeover

00:10:03.080 of the Supreme Court.

00:10:05.420 So Jeffrey,

00:10:06.280 as you were explaining there,

00:10:07.640 there was really

00:10:08.160 this pincer move

00:10:09.260 because Trump

00:10:10.320 is the sitting president

00:10:11.300 when this occurs

00:10:12.280 and he seems

00:10:13.960 to be moving along.

00:10:15.340 It's an emergency.

00:10:16.420 Everyone is recognizing

00:10:17.920 the kind of rising panic

00:10:19.560 that is being

00:10:20.360 brought to the forefront,

00:10:21.840 particularly by the media

00:10:23.140 and as all government

00:10:24.520 officials inevitably do,

00:10:26.380 he feels like

00:10:26.860 he must do something.

00:10:28.160 And of course,

00:10:28.920 on top of this,

00:10:30.140 the left is always

00:10:31.100 pushing this,

00:10:31.960 you're an anti-science guy,

00:10:33.880 you're against

00:10:34.520 all these institutions

00:10:35.640 because you hate

00:10:36.700 learning and knowledge

00:10:38.040 and all this kind of stuff.

00:10:39.280 And so there's this

00:10:39.920 extra level of pressure

00:10:41.320 for a Republican candidate

00:10:42.740 to feel like

00:10:43.780 they're effective,

00:10:44.600 that they're listening

00:10:45.120 to the experts,

00:10:45.920 that they're taking action

00:10:47.340 in accordance with

00:10:48.520 some kind of scientific

00:10:49.540 understanding of the situation.

00:10:51.500 Of course,

00:10:52.100 that ends up being bunk

00:10:53.080 because they lie

00:10:54.200 about all the science,

00:10:55.160 they distort everything,

00:10:56.120 they take everything

00:10:57.520 that Trump says

00:10:58.280 and turn him into an enemy

00:10:59.600 anyway,

00:11:00.100 even though he's going along

00:11:01.100 with so much of this

00:11:02.500 that they turn him

00:11:03.160 into an enemy.

00:11:04.440 But because he's backing this,

00:11:06.180 you see a lot of

00:11:07.240 the conservatives go along.

00:11:08.760 And this is very confusing

00:11:10.100 to me because,

00:11:10.940 you know,

00:11:11.100 there's a couple of

00:11:12.040 fire breaks

00:11:13.220 that you hope

00:11:13.820 really stand in the way

00:11:14.920 of this kind of tyranny.

00:11:16.380 But for me,

00:11:17.040 I thought at least

00:11:18.200 conservatives would

00:11:19.560 buck at the religious stuff,

00:11:21.660 right?

00:11:21.880 We're shutting down

00:11:22.660 your churches.

00:11:23.700 If there's one thing

00:11:24.700 you're supposed to care about

00:11:26.020 as some kind of

00:11:27.220 religious conservative,

00:11:28.600 it's this freedom.

00:11:30.400 And there's just,

00:11:31.600 you know,

00:11:31.860 no interest,

00:11:32.600 no action taken,

00:11:33.500 no significant pushback.

00:11:35.500 I imagine it's a libertarian,

00:11:37.860 you know,

00:11:38.280 slightly different,

00:11:39.340 but you're coming

00:11:40.020 from a similar place

00:11:40.940 of just watching

00:11:41.940 so many of the people.

00:11:42.900 And you point this out

00:11:43.580 in your piece,

00:11:44.500 how much the fact

00:11:45.520 that libertarianism

00:11:47.100 had these established voices,

00:11:49.040 had almost an industry

00:11:50.240 built around it,

00:11:51.520 a libertarian ink,

00:11:52.940 if you will,

00:11:53.900 it had a very similar

00:11:55.120 situation where

00:11:56.600 no one can say too much

00:11:57.960 because they can't get

00:11:58.620 censored off of YouTube.

00:11:59.500 It's important to make sure

00:12:00.260 the dollars keep flowing.

00:12:01.420 You have to be,

00:12:02.580 just be very careful

00:12:03.480 about the things that you say.

00:12:04.760 And so everyone

00:12:05.380 just kind of freezes in place

00:12:06.660 in hopes no one notices

00:12:07.680 that in the moment

00:12:08.680 they're supposed

00:12:09.080 to be standing tall,

00:12:10.280 they didn't say a word.

00:12:13.260 Yeah, your point

00:12:14.540 about YouTube is funny

00:12:16.200 because it's a little bit

00:12:18.200 of a window

00:12:18.640 into the careerism, right?

00:12:19.940 You make libertarianism

00:12:21.040 your career

00:12:21.600 and suddenly you have

00:12:22.400 to preserve your career

00:12:23.200 more than anything else.

00:12:25.020 And there's a social element,

00:12:26.580 especially if you're in D.C.,

00:12:27.700 you know,

00:12:27.920 you don't want to risk

00:12:30.340 your social networks

00:12:32.380 and libertarians

00:12:34.220 for decades,

00:12:35.840 you know,

00:12:36.060 have always valorized

00:12:38.180 success in the mainstream media

00:12:39.940 as the success

00:12:42.260 of their agenda.

00:12:43.120 So the goal

00:12:43.640 was always to get

00:12:44.420 a New York Times op-ed

00:12:45.440 or, you know,

00:12:46.020 be friends

00:12:46.460 with the Washington Post

00:12:47.360 or, you know,

00:12:49.160 hang out with,

00:12:49.880 you know,

00:12:50.340 top executives

00:12:51.100 of the IMF

00:12:51.800 or whatever.

00:12:52.200 but it was clear

00:12:55.100 after March 2020

00:12:56.660 what the priorities

00:12:57.720 of the regime were

00:13:00.000 and no libertarian

00:13:02.100 wanted to go against them

00:13:03.420 for fear of risking

00:13:05.100 their influence,

00:13:06.500 you know,

00:13:07.320 and their career.

00:13:08.540 And they're all

00:13:08.940 top-down organizations

00:13:10.080 and the word came down

00:13:11.020 very, very quickly

00:13:11.780 from all the top heads

00:13:13.760 of these organizations.

00:13:15.040 Don't disagree

00:13:16.600 with the scientific,

00:13:18.000 as I say,

00:13:18.540 the scientific consensus

00:13:19.620 on this

00:13:20.180 and set this one out.

00:13:21.260 Or my other favorite one

00:13:22.740 was libertarians

00:13:25.600 have a lot of,

00:13:28.320 you know,

00:13:28.640 they seem to have

00:13:29.760 theoretical certainty

00:13:31.920 on all sorts of topics.

00:13:33.960 I mean,

00:13:34.100 there's hardly anybody

00:13:34.880 more dogmatic,

00:13:36.600 but they don't know

00:13:39.320 a whole lot

00:13:39.960 about specific industries

00:13:42.240 or histories

00:13:43.040 or anything like that.

00:13:43.820 And they certainly

00:13:44.160 didn't know anything

00:13:44.720 about infectious disease.

00:13:46.360 So you take a guy

00:13:48.060 like Walter Block

00:13:48.800 who claims to be

00:13:49.780 this anarchist,

00:13:51.180 immediately published

00:13:52.380 an article going,

00:13:53.100 well, you know,

00:13:53.740 giving somebody the flu

00:13:55.060 would be a form of aggression.

00:13:56.860 We're against aggression.

00:13:58.280 We're about

00:13:58.880 the non-aggression principle.

00:14:00.000 And if you're against

00:14:00.520 the non-aggression principle,

00:14:02.360 that means really

00:14:03.820 if you sneeze on somebody

00:14:04.900 and give them a disease,

00:14:05.900 that's kind of a,

00:14:06.680 that's a tort,

00:14:07.640 you know,

00:14:07.840 that's probably a crime

00:14:09.540 and probably you should be jailed,

00:14:10.940 you know.

00:14:11.880 And then later

00:14:12.820 he called for the death penalty

00:14:14.380 for people that

00:14:15.420 refuse the vaccine.

00:14:17.340 So this is just,

00:14:18.760 this blocks out

00:14:19.260 a pretty rough run recently,

00:14:20.960 especially with the showdown

00:14:22.080 with Hopper, right?

00:14:22.820 Like this is pretty,

00:14:23.860 pretty amazing failure.

00:14:25.300 But it began a long time.

00:14:26.700 And then it turned out,

00:14:27.800 you know,

00:14:28.040 you look at his past,

00:14:29.540 you know,

00:14:29.840 it turns out he's been

00:14:30.800 a long time cheerleader

00:14:32.600 for the,

00:14:33.220 for the jailing,

00:14:34.960 30 year solitary confinement

00:14:37.100 for so-called typhoid Mary.

00:14:39.680 You know,

00:14:40.160 he was this Irish immigrant

00:14:41.320 crook

00:14:41.820 who was scapegoated

00:14:42.580 for typhoid in New York,

00:14:43.980 even though thousands

00:14:44.660 of people had it

00:14:45.480 and thousands of people spread it.

00:14:46.480 And it was just an infectious disease

00:14:47.720 like any other

00:14:48.360 that became endemic over time.

00:14:50.080 There was nothing

00:14:50.500 that jailed her,

00:14:51.540 you know.

00:14:53.540 And by the way,

00:14:54.300 she quite often tested negative

00:14:55.720 and positive.

00:14:56.600 And the state wanted

00:14:57.380 to tear out her gallbladder

00:14:58.660 and she refused.

00:15:00.320 So,

00:15:00.740 you know,

00:15:01.020 they put her,

00:15:01.520 they put her in solitary confinement

00:15:02.820 for 30 years

00:15:03.420 because she,

00:15:04.940 because she wanted to,

00:15:05.980 you know,

00:15:06.200 keep cooking,

00:15:07.060 you know,

00:15:07.220 just wanted to be a chef.

00:15:08.660 And Walter Block's like,

00:15:09.540 oh,

00:15:09.620 that's exactly right.

00:15:10.680 That's how you have to do

00:15:11.440 with infectious disease.

00:15:12.680 You know,

00:15:12.820 this is an anarchist talking.

00:15:15.140 So,

00:15:15.700 there's a great deal

00:15:16.920 of ignorance

00:15:17.660 within,

00:15:18.460 even with high,

00:15:20.500 within high theoretical circles

00:15:23.020 of,

00:15:23.560 among the gurus

00:15:24.680 of libertarianism

00:15:25.600 about what they should do

00:15:28.120 and think

00:15:28.980 about the subject

00:15:30.180 of infectious disease.

00:15:31.340 As if,

00:15:33.220 you know,

00:15:33.620 humanity just dealt

00:15:34.900 with infectious disease

00:15:35.900 for the very first time

00:15:36.820 in March 2020

00:15:37.600 and it hadn't been around

00:15:38.700 for a million years

00:15:39.380 previously.

00:15:39.840 you know,

00:15:40.480 previously.

00:15:41.360 So,

00:15:41.920 I mean,

00:15:42.340 the,

00:15:42.520 the ignorance

00:15:43.200 was astounding.

00:15:44.280 Oh,

00:15:44.560 here's the other thing

00:15:45.340 that frustrated me.

00:15:46.060 All it would have taken

00:15:47.120 is for any one

00:15:47.980 of these guru bird brains

00:15:50.000 to have downloaded,

00:15:51.200 you know,

00:15:51.560 virology for dummies

00:15:52.700 from Amazon

00:15:53.280 and spend an evening,

00:15:55.420 you know,

00:15:56.120 discovering,

00:15:56.860 you know,

00:15:57.120 the trade-off

00:15:57.600 between prevalence

00:15:59.080 and severity

00:16:00.260 subject to latency

00:16:01.220 and other basic concepts

00:16:02.560 or natural immunity,

00:16:04.180 for example.

00:16:04.940 It's not always the case

00:16:06.380 that exposure

00:16:06.920 to infectious disease

00:16:07.860 is a negative externality.

00:16:09.260 It could be a positive

00:16:10.080 externality,

00:16:10.780 for God's sake.

00:16:12.020 The other thing

00:16:13.040 that you see,

00:16:14.680 you saw being thrown around

00:16:15.960 in these high theoretical circles

00:16:17.840 was the,

00:16:18.820 the principle of,

00:16:22.120 you know,

00:16:22.480 of the so-called

00:16:23.900 precautionary principle.

00:16:25.080 Well,

00:16:25.340 we don't know what it is.

00:16:27.240 We don't know exactly

00:16:28.640 what this disease is.

00:16:29.920 So,

00:16:30.240 therefore,

00:16:31.140 we need to immediately

00:16:32.520 impose totalitarianism

00:16:34.020 just in case it's bad.

00:16:36.480 Well,

00:16:37.040 but the precautionary principle

00:16:38.100 actually applies

00:16:39.280 the other direction.

00:16:39.940 You don't want to impose

00:16:40.720 totalitarianism

00:16:41.920 unless you know for sure

00:16:44.380 what it is you're doing

00:16:45.700 and even then,

00:16:46.480 probably not.

00:16:47.380 But nonetheless,

00:16:48.680 I mean,

00:16:48.860 they kept invoking

00:16:49.540 all these high theoretical ideas

00:16:51.120 to justify their acquiescence

00:16:52.920 to,

00:16:53.380 you know,

00:16:53.720 regime narratives

00:16:54.680 and priorities,

00:16:55.260 even though they were

00:16:55.880 obviously fake

00:16:56.800 for anybody who wanted

00:16:57.540 to spend 10 minutes

00:16:58.640 reading the literature,

00:17:00.120 but they can't even do that.

00:17:01.500 Isn't this a dangerous,

00:17:04.120 so,

00:17:04.580 you know,

00:17:04.840 one of the things

00:17:05.520 that I harp on

00:17:06.480 and I'm sure,

00:17:07.780 you know,

00:17:08.140 you having laid out

00:17:09.500 this article,

00:17:10.020 you're very aware of

00:17:11.200 is the obsession

00:17:12.940 with ideology itself

00:17:14.320 and the fact that

00:17:16.340 so few libertarians,

00:17:18.080 you know,

00:17:18.180 this is one of the reasons

00:17:18.740 I like Hoppe

00:17:19.380 because he's familiar

00:17:20.760 with the juvenile,

00:17:21.740 he's,

00:17:22.120 you know,

00:17:22.640 he pulls extensively,

00:17:24.100 so he has an accurate

00:17:25.400 understanding of power.

00:17:26.780 He has a metaphysics

00:17:27.520 of power

00:17:28.000 that just is not present

00:17:29.660 in,

00:17:30.120 in,

00:17:30.500 in popular libertarian

00:17:32.580 understanding.

00:17:32.720 You need to say

00:17:33.200 that he reads books.

00:17:34.520 That's a fascinating point.

00:17:36.700 It does help.

00:17:38.260 It's,

00:17:38.800 you can get more

00:17:39.560 from books than memes

00:17:40.480 actually,

00:17:40.920 as it turns out.

00:17:41.840 It,

00:17:42.040 it turns out,

00:17:42.940 but,

00:17:43.100 but,

00:17:43.240 but what I mean there

00:17:44.660 is that,

00:17:45.800 you know,

00:17:46.160 when power came knocking,

00:17:47.580 it turns out

00:17:48.560 that disembodied.

00:17:50.200 When I found out

00:17:51.220 my friend got a great deal

00:17:52.600 on a designer dress

00:17:53.440 from Winners,

00:17:54.240 I started wondering,

00:17:55.880 is every fabulous item

00:17:57.420 I see from Winners?

00:17:59.020 Like that woman over there

00:18:00.300 with the Italian leather handbag.

00:18:01.960 Is that from Winners?

00:18:03.160 Ooh,

00:18:03.780 or that beautiful silk skirt.

00:18:05.700 Did she pay full price?

00:18:06.920 Or those suede sneakers?

00:18:08.500 Or that luggage?

00:18:09.580 Or that trench?

00:18:10.720 Those jeans?

00:18:11.420 That jacket?

00:18:12.160 Those heels?

00:18:13.020 Is anyone paying full price

00:18:14.740 for anything?

00:18:15.980 Stop wondering.

00:18:17.260 Start winning.

00:18:18.180 Winners.

00:18:18.760 Find fabulous for less.

00:18:22.700 Ideology just did not,

00:18:24.460 was not sufficient.

00:18:25.840 And,

00:18:25.920 and,

00:18:26.220 and I think that that is,

00:18:27.420 something that is,

00:18:28.780 is kind of critical

00:18:29.600 to the libertarian axis

00:18:31.820 of organization

00:18:32.620 because so much of it

00:18:34.120 is invested in the idea

00:18:35.280 that a shared ideology

00:18:37.340 is critical.

00:18:38.600 You know,

00:18:38.780 you yourself point out

00:18:39.640 repeatedly that just,

00:18:41.100 so much of the libertarian

00:18:42.580 commentary

00:18:43.000 is just unfamiliar

00:18:44.040 with a large amount

00:18:45.120 of the body of,

00:18:46.140 of what's been laid out there.

00:18:47.760 But even then,

00:18:48.740 it feels like there,

00:18:49.660 there's just,

00:18:50.300 there's something missing

00:18:51.360 inside a certain aspect,

00:18:53.540 at least of some

00:18:54.340 libertarian analysis

00:18:55.360 that just ignores

00:18:56.660 power and social organization

00:18:59.020 and just goes directly

00:19:00.580 to this,

00:19:01.220 well,

00:19:01.480 at least we all agree,

00:19:02.680 believe in freedom.

00:19:03.520 And it just seems like that,

00:19:04.980 you know,

00:19:05.340 that falls apart so quickly

00:19:06.800 when actual power

00:19:08.180 comes knocking.

00:19:09.300 Well,

00:19:09.400 you're right to isolate this.

00:19:10.540 And I recommend your book

00:19:11.460 highly to,

00:19:12.080 to anyone or everyone

00:19:13.260 to understand

00:19:13.880 the way power works.

00:19:16.360 It's not the case

00:19:17.280 that power is always

00:19:18.200 the FBI knocking

00:19:19.560 on your door

00:19:20.160 and telling you

00:19:23.160 to stop smoking pot

00:19:23.980 or whatever the thing

00:19:24.600 is the libertarians imagine.

00:19:26.120 I mean,

00:19:26.340 power takes many forms

00:19:28.620 and it's,

00:19:30.040 it quite often

00:19:30.900 when it,

00:19:31.340 when it becomes totalitarian,

00:19:32.740 it means it involves

00:19:33.440 the totality of society,

00:19:34.800 meaning media,

00:19:36.020 all levels of government.

00:19:37.180 You've got your red guard,

00:19:38.120 the equivalent of the red guard

00:19:39.140 as your neighbor.

00:19:40.300 And so,

00:19:40.700 you know,

00:19:41.220 totalitarianism is,

00:19:42.820 is all inclusive.

00:19:44.060 It's all around you.

00:19:45.460 And,

00:19:46.000 and it takes,

00:19:46.780 like a lot,

00:19:47.420 a lot of libertarians

00:19:48.220 couldn't even figure out

00:19:49.260 whether and to what extent

00:19:50.400 it was an exercise of power

00:19:51.780 for your boss

00:19:52.460 to come to you and say,

00:19:53.180 I want you to get a vaccine

00:19:54.160 or you're going to get fired.

00:19:55.300 They're like,

00:19:55.620 well,

00:19:56.420 I don't know.

00:19:57.940 You can always get another job,

00:19:59.060 right?

00:20:00.240 You know,

00:20:00.480 isn't that an exercise

00:20:01.300 of private enterprise?

00:20:02.180 You know,

00:20:02.300 forget the fact

00:20:03.000 that these vaccines

00:20:04.340 never had any,

00:20:05.340 they're all indemnified

00:20:06.240 against harm.

00:20:06.860 So who's going to be responsible

00:20:07.860 if you get,

00:20:08.380 if you die from it?

00:20:09.180 You know,

00:20:09.660 that's a serious question.

00:20:12.320 This is not,

00:20:13.000 this is not private,

00:20:14.380 private property rights.

00:20:15.740 So you're right.

00:20:16.600 Libertarians have a very,

00:20:17.940 childish understanding

00:20:20.280 of what power is.

00:20:22.200 Whereas in fact,

00:20:23.340 it always unfolds

00:20:25.000 in this sort of

00:20:25.640 multidimensional way,

00:20:28.580 you know,

00:20:28.840 that involves large corporations

00:20:30.320 for sure,

00:20:32.320 big media,

00:20:33.780 you know,

00:20:34.060 in this case,

00:20:34.920 big tech,

00:20:35.540 the doctors,

00:20:36.500 you know,

00:20:36.680 I've described,

00:20:37.560 I don't know

00:20:37.920 if you've read my article

00:20:39.080 about this,

00:20:39.560 but I described power

00:20:40.680 as taking,

00:20:41.880 there's three big levels

00:20:43.000 of the state.

00:20:43.740 There's the deep state,

00:20:44.660 which we think of

00:20:45.400 as being the intelligence agencies,

00:20:46.740 which we don't have any access.

00:20:49.340 The middle state,

00:20:49.940 which is the civilian bureaucracies,

00:20:52.160 Department of Labor,

00:20:52.860 Department of Agriculture,

00:20:54.040 and all the things

00:20:54.580 you think of

00:20:55.200 as being the bureaucracy.

00:20:56.240 And then you've got

00:20:56.820 the shallow state,

00:20:57.600 which is the consumer-facing voice

00:20:59.940 for the middle state

00:21:00.720 and the deep state,

00:21:01.500 which is,

00:21:02.080 you know,

00:21:03.080 the retailers,

00:21:04.880 your doctor,

00:21:06.260 the CBS,

00:21:07.440 you know,

00:21:07.620 it's Amazon,

00:21:08.280 it's Netflix,

00:21:12.060 and so on.

00:21:12.540 So that's the shallow state.

00:21:14.620 And libertarians

00:21:15.600 have no conception

00:21:17.860 of the complexity

00:21:18.640 of power,

00:21:20.560 even though,

00:21:21.920 as you point out

00:21:22.760 in your book,

00:21:23.120 it's been rising up

00:21:24.000 for 100 years,

00:21:25.200 you know,

00:21:26.400 and it's all around us.

00:21:27.520 And we've seen

00:21:28.280 the exercise

00:21:28.940 of this,

00:21:30.200 precisely this kind

00:21:31.160 of power

00:21:31.620 throughout the course

00:21:33.800 of the 20th century.

00:21:34.680 Well,

00:21:36.220 like I said,

00:21:36.700 what I appreciated

00:21:37.320 about your article

00:21:38.260 is it's certainly

00:21:39.180 focused heavily

00:21:40.200 on the pandemic itself,

00:21:41.460 but it also touched

00:21:42.600 on three big issues

00:21:44.680 that I feel like

00:21:46.180 libertarianism

00:21:47.280 in general

00:21:48.260 has not addressed

00:21:49.220 and you had the courage

00:21:49.920 to kind of face those.

00:21:51.300 And so I want to dive

00:21:52.520 into each one

00:21:53.180 of those pillars

00:21:53.680 because I think

00:21:54.700 you were willing

00:21:55.500 to address those

00:21:56.120 in a way

00:21:56.400 that we don't normally see.

00:21:57.660 But before we get to that,

00:21:58.480 guys,

00:21:59.100 let me tell you

00:21:59.780 a little bit

00:22:00.220 about Magic Spoon.

00:22:01.120 Hey, guys,

00:22:01.640 as a kid,

00:22:02.220 we all loved eating cereal,

00:22:03.840 but as adults,

00:22:04.680 we don't want

00:22:05.280 all the sugar

00:22:05.920 that those cereals

00:22:06.760 come with

00:22:07.440 and most cereals

00:22:08.440 don't give you

00:22:09.020 the protein

00:22:09.520 that you need.

00:22:10.720 That's why I'm glad

00:22:11.680 I found Magic Spoon.

00:22:13.240 It's like a nostalgic,

00:22:14.540 delicious cereal

00:22:15.340 that tastes

00:22:16.160 like my childhood favorites,

00:22:17.760 but without the sugar

00:22:18.760 and with a ton of protein.

00:22:20.480 And if you're already

00:22:21.300 a Magic Spoon fan,

00:22:22.460 then I've got great news.

00:22:24.100 Magic Spoon has turned

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00:22:28.280 that are light,

00:22:29.360 crispy,

00:22:29.740 and taste just like

00:22:30.780 those classic

00:22:31.640 crunchy cereal bars.

00:22:33.280 They're great after,

00:22:34.240 Jim's snack.

00:22:35.220 They're full of protein.

00:22:36.360 They're already

00:22:36.920 one of my favorite things

00:22:37.840 to grab on the go.

00:22:38.760 Every serving of

00:22:39.520 Magic Spoon cereal

00:22:40.320 has 13 grams of protein,

00:22:42.320 zero grams of sugar,

00:22:43.360 and four grams of net carbs,

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00:22:45.960 about what you're eating.

00:22:47.160 They've got flavors

00:22:47.840 like fruity and cocoa,

00:22:49.180 but peanut butter

00:22:49.660 is my favorite.

00:22:50.560 Magic Spoon's brand new treats

00:22:52.120 are crispy,

00:22:53.000 crunchy,

00:22:53.620 airy,

00:22:54.020 and an easy way

00:22:54.960 to get 11 grams

00:22:55.780 of protein on the go.

00:22:57.200 And for the first time ever,

00:22:58.520 Magic Spoon treats

00:22:59.260 are available in grocery stores

00:23:00.740 with delicious flavors

00:23:02.000 like marshmallow

00:23:02.860 and chocolate peanut butter.

00:23:04.340 So go ahead

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00:23:05.800 your next order

00:23:06.620 at magicspoon.com

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00:23:09.440 or look for Magic Spoon

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00:23:14.440 slash Oren

00:23:15.320 for $5 off.

00:23:17.900 So one of the things

00:23:19.120 that you address

00:23:19.920 and you point out

00:23:21.100 that much of the populist energy

00:23:22.980 behind Trump itself

00:23:24.380 brings a lot of opposition

00:23:26.380 to what are many

00:23:27.920 classically libertarian points,

00:23:29.740 and obviously the Democrats

00:23:30.720 are even worse

00:23:31.600 on these issues.

00:23:32.660 So many libertarians

00:23:33.960 finding no real home

00:23:35.980 in much of the mainstream

00:23:37.800 at the moment,

00:23:38.540 which is nothing new.

00:23:40.740 But the free trade issue

00:23:43.680 is one that has gotten

00:23:45.060 a lot of attention

00:23:45.880 for a couple of reasons.

00:23:48.280 Obviously,

00:23:49.280 a lot of people

00:23:49.960 are looking at the jobs

00:23:51.860 that have been hollowed out.

00:23:53.300 The creative destruction

00:23:54.240 has not panned out

00:23:55.220 to the benefit

00:23:56.080 of most of America,

00:23:57.680 especially middle America,

00:23:58.740 the way that they were promised.

00:24:00.720 When we look at what happened

00:24:01.880 with the pandemic,

00:24:02.880 we quickly realize that,

00:24:04.460 oh, we don't make

00:24:05.140 a lot of things

00:24:05.760 like antibiotics

00:24:06.560 or critical medical equipment,

00:24:08.300 and the people

00:24:08.940 who do make them

00:24:09.660 are now kind of enemies

00:24:11.900 who maybe were involved

00:24:13.820 in creating this,

00:24:14.600 though maybe we created it

00:24:15.580 over there,

00:24:16.020 but whatever.

00:24:16.680 The point being,

00:24:18.040 the possibility

00:24:19.140 of hostile powers

00:24:19.940 being in control

00:24:20.920 of your supply chain

00:24:21.920 became very clear.

00:24:23.260 And finally,

00:24:24.860 the danger really

00:24:26.740 of this reliance,

00:24:27.680 I think particularly

00:24:29.300 of kind of this

00:24:30.020 new pager attack

00:24:31.160 that happened

00:24:32.140 with Israel

00:24:32.960 versus Hamas terrorists,

00:24:35.740 a lot of people,

00:24:36.960 some people praising this,

00:24:38.700 some people shocked at it.

00:24:39.900 The point being,

00:24:40.740 when you think about

00:24:41.280 the security of supply lines

00:24:42.880 and how easily

00:24:43.680 the infiltration

00:24:44.360 of a supply line

00:24:45.280 can become a vector

00:24:47.220 for attack,

00:24:48.780 when you're not assuming

00:24:49.700 that kind of all actors

00:24:51.080 and international exchanges

00:24:54.060 are in goodwill

00:24:55.420 and going to be acting

00:24:56.460 on these principles

00:24:57.180 of kind of laissez-faire economics,

00:24:59.820 you end up in a scenario

00:25:00.680 where a lot of people

00:25:01.380 recognize that

00:25:02.380 the shift in free trade

00:25:04.540 may have been

00:25:05.880 more of a trade-off

00:25:07.500 than they had been willing to,

00:25:08.600 especially when it comes

00:25:09.320 to things like national security.

00:25:11.260 So you addressed this

00:25:12.220 a little bit in the article.

00:25:13.440 Could you talk a little bit

00:25:14.120 on that

00:25:14.520 and kind of how that locks in

00:25:16.360 with the libertarian worldview

00:25:17.440 as you understand it?

00:25:18.520 Right after the trade,

00:25:20.220 the decoupling with China

00:25:22.100 had begun

00:25:22.580 before the lockdowns

00:25:23.620 and then immediately

00:25:24.300 following the lockdowns,

00:25:25.380 Jared Kushner went into

00:25:26.400 Trump's office and said,

00:25:27.660 we've got a problem.

00:25:28.840 We don't have enough swabs.

00:25:30.020 We don't have enough masks.

00:25:31.720 We don't have enough

00:25:32.640 of anything really.

00:25:34.280 So we need to get on the phone

00:25:35.880 with Xi Jinping.

00:25:37.140 And so here's the phone.

00:25:38.600 And so they had a conversation

00:25:40.040 and trade with China

00:25:40.940 immediately started.

00:25:42.200 And next thing you know,

00:25:43.740 America is walking around

00:25:45.720 with Chinese-made cloth

00:25:47.280 on their faces

00:25:47.900 and their nose

00:25:49.280 were being swabbed

00:25:50.080 with Chinese-made swabs.

00:25:51.680 And so suddenly China

00:25:52.780 was all over us

00:25:54.580 all over again.

00:25:56.000 So, yeah.

00:25:58.700 So that was,

00:26:00.200 I've hardly seen anybody

00:26:01.880 talk about this,

00:26:02.680 but it restarted

00:26:03.340 the U.S.-China trade relationship,

00:26:05.420 which might have been

00:26:06.340 the whole point

00:26:07.960 or at least one of the points.

00:26:10.280 But, you know,

00:26:11.020 there's other profound things.

00:26:13.220 I think that libertarians

00:26:14.460 have not noticed

00:26:15.320 or if we have noticed

00:26:16.360 that we've just dismissed it

00:26:17.500 as you say,

00:26:18.200 creative destruction.

00:26:19.980 Hey, their wages are cheaper.

00:26:21.980 The world is opening up.

00:26:23.040 Of course,

00:26:23.420 we had to let go

00:26:24.300 of making tools,

00:26:26.740 making furniture,

00:26:27.580 making textiles,

00:26:28.640 making steel,

00:26:30.720 and making clocks,

00:26:32.420 and making pianos,

00:26:33.220 and making, well,

00:26:34.160 basically everything

00:26:35.120 except debt.

00:26:35.840 And I think that there

00:26:41.380 has been a rise

00:26:42.360 of a populist movement

00:26:43.360 that's just said,

00:26:44.280 look, this is too much.

00:26:46.540 We have infrastructure

00:26:48.200 all over the country

00:26:49.260 that's not being used.

00:26:50.480 Our cities have been

00:26:51.300 hollowed out.

00:26:52.380 We have talents.

00:26:53.520 We used to have talents.

00:26:54.460 We used to have skills

00:26:55.020 that are not being deployed.

00:26:55.940 Something's broken here.

00:26:57.780 And the point I was trying

00:26:58.800 to make in the article,

00:26:59.560 and it's a little bit

00:27:00.140 of a complicated point,

00:27:01.820 back when that generation

00:27:03.220 and the post-World War II

00:27:06.360 generation,

00:27:06.900 which was raised up

00:27:07.760 in a lot of smooth

00:27:08.840 hollows in 1932.

00:27:10.420 They swore that after the war

00:27:11.460 they would start free trade up.

00:27:13.540 And in 1946,

00:27:14.700 we got the first glimpses

00:27:16.880 of the GATT Treaty,

00:27:17.880 which prioritized globalism

00:27:20.260 and global trade

00:27:21.040 with zero tariffs.

00:27:23.180 But as part of that,

00:27:24.460 they relied very heavily,

00:27:25.540 and my friend Gottfried Hobbler

00:27:26.720 was the main theorist,

00:27:27.640 who very heavily

00:27:28.220 on the thing called

00:27:28.960 the price-species

00:27:30.640 flow mechanism.

00:27:35.000 And this is way too much

00:27:37.940 in the weeds for this.

00:27:38.780 I urge anybody

00:27:39.500 to read the article.

00:27:40.520 But the idea is that

00:27:41.200 the monetary system

00:27:42.140 would balance out

00:27:43.600 the accounts between nations

00:27:45.580 so that importers

00:27:46.680 would become exporters

00:27:47.500 and exporters

00:27:48.000 would become importers

00:27:48.800 and nobody would lose

00:27:49.640 their industries,

00:27:50.360 but they all benefit

00:27:51.080 from trading with each other.

00:27:53.440 And that relationship

00:27:55.360 had been explained

00:27:57.320 very well

00:27:58.060 all the way back

00:27:59.320 to before Adam Smith's time

00:28:02.600 in the work of David Hume,

00:28:03.780 followed up on by Bastiat,

00:28:05.720 was believed in very strongly

00:28:07.220 through all the trade theorists

00:28:09.100 of the middle of the 20th century.

00:28:10.940 It was all based on

00:28:11.880 the idea of a gold standard.

00:28:14.040 So we're all using

00:28:14.900 more or less

00:28:15.360 the same currencies,

00:28:16.540 and the currency flows

00:28:17.940 themselves

00:28:18.340 would keep the trade

00:28:19.880 from being exploitative,

00:28:22.000 creating more destruction

00:28:23.320 than creation, right?

00:28:25.000 So the creation-destruction idea

00:28:27.640 was tied in

00:28:28.740 with the price-PC flow mechanism

00:28:30.380 so that, you know,

00:28:32.000 as you created,

00:28:32.780 you also destroyed,

00:28:33.660 and as you destroyed,

00:28:34.400 you also created.

00:28:35.280 And it wasn't fundamentally

00:28:36.620 disruptive of the social order.

00:28:38.200 Well, after Nixon

00:28:41.200 pulled us off

00:28:42.380 the gold standard,

00:28:43.440 the U.S. became

00:28:44.080 the world reserve currency

00:28:48.360 and fiat dollars,

00:28:49.460 and it meant forever

00:28:50.460 that other foreign nations

00:28:51.820 would forever

00:28:52.420 accumulate debt.

00:28:53.620 And the mechanism

00:28:56.540 would stop working.

00:28:58.220 So you can look

00:28:59.200 at the trade deficits

00:29:00.280 and see that it's just

00:29:01.460 bleeding an increasing amount

00:29:04.280 of red over time,

00:29:06.000 over decades and decades

00:29:07.340 and decades,

00:29:07.980 until finally,

00:29:09.300 with Trump,

00:29:10.640 people woke up

00:29:11.260 and said,

00:29:11.500 what the hell?

00:29:12.520 You know,

00:29:12.700 are we really,

00:29:13.260 can we really live this way?

00:29:14.840 Not having any industries

00:29:16.320 except,

00:29:16.980 you know,

00:29:18.740 medicine

00:29:19.740 and finance?

00:29:24.340 And that's it?

00:29:25.480 I mean,

00:29:25.760 is this the way

00:29:27.360 a country is supposed to work?

00:29:28.380 Is this the way

00:29:28.620 trade is supposed to work?

00:29:29.460 And Trump said no.

00:29:30.700 Now,

00:29:30.940 I don't think his solutions

00:29:31.880 to this are very good,

00:29:33.660 but to deny

00:29:34.980 that there's a problem

00:29:36.060 is,

00:29:36.520 to my mind,

00:29:38.700 completely crazy.

00:29:39.380 And keep in mind

00:29:40.340 that what this meant was

00:29:41.700 that other foreign central banks

00:29:44.100 could forever accumulate

00:29:45.300 dollar reserves,

00:29:46.060 as has happened in Japan

00:29:47.340 and happened in China,

00:29:48.720 which they use

00:29:50.620 as the capital basis

00:29:51.740 for the expansion

00:29:52.620 of their own industries

00:29:54.000 that would directly compete

00:29:55.160 with the U.S.

00:29:55.720 And they can do this

00:29:56.460 with impunity

00:29:57.740 forever.

00:30:00.600 And China's restarted

00:30:01.700 this again recently.

00:30:02.960 You know,

00:30:03.100 they're targeting

00:30:03.680 all of our new

00:30:04.720 green energy industries

00:30:06.100 and they're going

00:30:06.820 to wipe us out.

00:30:07.840 So as soon as the U.S.

00:30:08.840 starts up and kicks off

00:30:09.880 a new industry,

00:30:11.040 China, you know,

00:30:11.580 pulls out a pair

00:30:12.320 of binoculars

00:30:12.920 and sees what's going on

00:30:14.320 and then redirects

00:30:15.980 its lending patterns

00:30:18.180 to those very industries

00:30:19.860 where they,

00:30:20.580 you know,

00:30:20.860 can deploy labor

00:30:24.380 pennies on the dollar

00:30:25.640 that we can

00:30:26.400 and do a better job

00:30:27.660 and immediately undercut

00:30:28.900 the U.S. in trade

00:30:30.520 and destroy

00:30:31.120 our industries again.

00:30:32.520 You can say,

00:30:32.940 oh, that doesn't matter.

00:30:33.600 It's free trade.

00:30:33.940 It's not free trade.

00:30:34.920 That's my point.

00:30:35.580 It's not free trade.

00:30:36.340 It's not free trade

00:30:37.100 because the price

00:30:38.000 specie flow mechanism

00:30:39.840 is not working.

00:30:42.060 Trump happened

00:30:42.660 to notice this

00:30:43.480 and libertarians

00:30:44.160 just stood in denial.

00:30:45.400 But what it did

00:30:46.240 was it undermined

00:30:47.480 the 70-year regime

00:30:49.780 of free trade,

00:30:50.620 which is really

00:30:51.380 the only great

00:30:53.060 neoliberal accomplishment

00:30:54.380 following World War II.

00:30:56.040 So that pillar

00:30:56.880 of, you know,

00:30:58.520 the libertarian ideology

00:30:59.800 just got wiped out

00:31:02.060 to the point

00:31:03.180 that nobody believes

00:31:03.920 in it anymore.

00:31:04.480 Well, and I think

00:31:05.840 that feeds directly

00:31:07.040 into the second issue

00:31:08.700 you address,

00:31:09.460 which is the border question.

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00:32:36.060 So the second issue

00:32:38.000 that you address

00:32:39.220 in the, you know,

00:32:40.640 kind of the three

00:32:41.300 that pillars of

00:32:42.320 or three critical elements

00:32:44.200 of libertarianism

00:32:44.920 that have kind of

00:32:45.340 come under assault

00:32:46.700 is the border question.

00:32:48.720 And I think both

00:32:49.580 the free trade

00:32:50.700 and border question

00:32:51.820 share a similar problem

00:32:55.940 for many libertarians,

00:32:57.480 which is that

00:32:58.300 both of them

00:32:59.540 as libertarians

00:33:00.300 are currently

00:33:00.760 addressing them

00:33:01.320 or at least some

00:33:01.880 there are some libertarians

00:33:03.120 that are, I think,

00:33:04.320 giving better answers

00:33:05.160 to this.

00:33:06.240 But, you know,

00:33:07.480 they're both ignoring

00:33:08.740 the issue of peoples, right?

00:33:11.300 And the fact that

00:33:12.640 so many libertarians

00:33:14.940 basically assumed

00:33:17.060 that the price mechanisms,

00:33:19.520 that currency,

00:33:20.580 that all the things

00:33:21.720 that should be balancing

00:33:22.960 in a system

00:33:23.700 of global trade

00:33:24.580 would do so

00:33:25.720 was because they didn't

00:33:27.160 really think

00:33:28.500 that ultimately

00:33:29.100 people would put thumbs

00:33:30.180 on the scale

00:33:31.320 to really favor

00:33:32.360 their industry,

00:33:33.400 their people,

00:33:34.200 to prioritize

00:33:34.920 specific industries

00:33:35.940 that are necessary

00:33:36.700 for their national security,

00:33:38.020 their way of life.

00:33:39.340 Same thing

00:33:39.880 when it comes to open borders.

00:33:41.140 This idea that

00:33:42.220 human capital

00:33:43.000 was just another form

00:33:44.160 of capital

00:33:44.600 that could flow.

00:33:45.780 You know,

00:33:45.960 liquid capital

00:33:46.480 is the best kind

00:33:47.360 and this is going

00:33:47.880 to create more creation,

00:33:49.420 more production,

00:33:50.200 more efficiency.

00:33:51.400 But what we found

00:33:52.360 is that actually

00:33:53.120 there's a severe cost

00:33:54.840 to this,

00:33:55.300 that people aren't

00:33:56.040 interchangeable,

00:33:56.980 that they're not widgets,

00:33:57.940 that's not just fungible

00:33:59.360 and that it matters

00:34:00.920 to a country,

00:34:02.740 to a nation

00:34:03.260 what people are inside of it.

00:34:05.320 And so the idea

00:34:06.420 that a worker

00:34:07.080 could just come

00:34:08.000 and do their job

00:34:09.340 and fill in labor needs

00:34:11.960 in the market

00:34:12.700 and then they would

00:34:13.460 just return back

00:34:14.220 or whatever,

00:34:14.860 that simply did not work.

00:34:16.240 And especially

00:34:16.580 as you point out

00:34:17.200 in the piece

00:34:17.560 in conjunction

00:34:18.100 with the welfare state,

00:34:19.860 whether libertarians

00:34:21.180 like it or not,

00:34:21.760 that's a reality

00:34:22.640 of many modern

00:34:24.300 Western liberal democracies

00:34:25.760 particularly,

00:34:26.880 that meant

00:34:27.640 that there was

00:34:28.060 just this inability

00:34:29.220 to confront the issue

00:34:30.840 when it came

00:34:31.500 to many libertarians

00:34:33.060 who still want

00:34:33.700 to advocate

00:34:34.200 for kind of

00:34:34.720 an open borders mentality.

00:34:36.520 And the thing

00:34:36.920 I would add to that

00:34:37.860 that the most devastating point

00:34:40.360 against free immigration,

00:34:42.120 which I've never seen

00:34:42.780 it's officially answered

00:34:43.460 by any libertarians

00:34:44.340 but not that they answer anything,

00:34:46.160 is the point

00:34:47.180 that demographics

00:34:48.240 would be used

00:34:49.140 to manipulate voting outcomes.

00:34:50.460 So for decades

00:34:52.420 you had libertarians

00:34:53.300 arguing one side

00:34:54.260 to say,

00:34:54.600 oh, free immigration

00:34:55.220 and other people

00:34:55.740 like Milton Friedman

00:34:56.500 and Frederick Hayek too.

00:35:00.220 Well, Hayek's critique

00:35:01.340 of free immigration

00:35:02.000 is slightly more sophisticated

00:35:03.160 but Milton Friedman

00:35:04.020 would just simply say,

00:35:04.780 well, you can't have

00:35:05.260 free immigration

00:35:05.820 if you have a welfare state

00:35:06.880 to which the typical

00:35:08.320 libertarian response

00:35:09.340 was, well,

00:35:10.740 abolish the welfare state,

00:35:11.900 theoretical problem solved,

00:35:13.000 I don't have to think

00:35:13.480 about it anymore.

00:35:14.560 Okay, that's really interesting

00:35:15.660 but

00:35:16.740 what if

00:35:22.060 your immigration system

00:35:24.300 is being used

00:35:25.020 to create

00:35:25.640 a kind of demographic

00:35:26.680 disruption

00:35:27.540 and a deeply cynical

00:35:30.100 attempt

00:35:30.860 to manipulate

00:35:31.760 political outcomes

00:35:32.880 to keep a single party

00:35:34.280 in power?

00:35:35.440 You know,

00:35:35.640 that is some wicked

00:35:36.960 policy right there

00:35:39.180 and that is

00:35:40.640 what we've seen

00:35:41.680 over the last years

00:35:43.340 and it's so aggressive

00:35:45.200 and so open now.

00:35:46.840 I mean,

00:35:47.040 Elon Musk

00:35:47.680 talks about it

00:35:48.340 all the time.

00:35:49.940 You know,

00:35:50.180 importing voters

00:35:51.560 from all over the world

00:35:52.600 to embed

00:35:53.400 in the domestic population

00:35:54.640 to make,

00:35:55.400 not because

00:35:55.980 you're sure

00:35:57.420 they're going to

00:35:58.120 always vote

00:35:58.600 for, you know,

00:35:59.500 team A

00:36:00.280 versus team B

00:36:01.320 which all you need

00:36:03.680 is a plurality

00:36:04.500 of them

00:36:04.920 with predictable

00:36:06.180 voting patterns

00:36:06.800 but just to make

00:36:08.160 voter fraud

00:36:08.640 more plausible.

00:36:10.780 Right?

00:36:10.840 So, you know,

00:36:12.640 and to manipulate

00:36:13.960 the census

00:36:14.500 and reapportion

00:36:15.540 all the representatives

00:36:17.320 which, you know,

00:36:18.460 the Democrats

00:36:18.900 figured this out

00:36:19.800 and have been

00:36:23.320 deploying this little

00:36:24.100 scheme now

00:36:24.680 for a long time

00:36:25.600 and the libertarians

00:36:28.720 just haven't

00:36:29.520 really noticed,

00:36:30.640 you know,

00:36:31.060 this problem.

00:36:31.960 Well, look,

00:36:32.440 if you're going to

00:36:32.840 live in a democracy,

00:36:34.400 okay,

00:36:34.820 we like to talk

00:36:36.200 about how we live

00:36:36.820 in a democracy

00:36:37.360 that means the people

00:36:38.100 are going to rule

00:36:38.600 themselves

00:36:39.140 or at least have

00:36:40.040 some influence

00:36:40.700 over the shape

00:36:41.240 of the regime,

00:36:42.100 well,

00:36:42.480 that means

00:36:43.180 you're going

00:36:43.880 to have a system

00:36:44.540 whereby,

00:36:45.500 you know,

00:36:45.920 some bad actors

00:36:47.000 are going to

00:36:47.540 manipulate

00:36:48.200 the demographics

00:36:49.640 of the population

00:36:50.600 towards particular

00:36:51.580 political outcomes

00:36:52.820 and that one

00:36:53.540 follows the other

00:36:54.520 unless you've got

00:36:55.320 really good actors

00:36:56.240 and high-minded

00:36:57.400 public servants

00:36:58.680 or whatever

00:36:59.960 but we don't have that.

00:37:02.020 So this kind

00:37:02.580 of manipulation

00:37:03.180 has been going

00:37:03.720 on for a very long time,

00:37:05.180 you know,

00:37:05.500 to the detriment

00:37:06.500 of liberty.

00:37:08.040 I mean,

00:37:08.280 years ago

00:37:08.840 somebody asked me

00:37:09.800 who favored

00:37:10.960 immigration restrictions

00:37:11.960 at a time

00:37:12.420 when I was all

00:37:12.880 for open borders

00:37:13.580 very naively,

00:37:14.380 he said,

00:37:14.580 do you think

00:37:15.060 that inviting

00:37:17.080 tens of millions

00:37:18.360 of immigrants

00:37:20.600 from far-flung places

00:37:21.680 all over the world,

00:37:22.900 you know,

00:37:23.220 say over the course

00:37:24.040 of a couple of years

00:37:24.920 would on net

00:37:26.340 result in greater

00:37:27.660 or less liberty

00:37:28.580 for Americans?

00:37:29.740 and I was really

00:37:31.640 stunned by the question

00:37:32.680 and instead of

00:37:33.840 dealing with it

00:37:34.320 I just like

00:37:34.980 pretended it didn't happen,

00:37:36.300 right?

00:37:36.920 But now we know,

00:37:38.440 we know exactly

00:37:39.240 and not only do we,

00:37:40.600 not only do we know

00:37:41.580 it's an accident,

00:37:44.120 we know that

00:37:45.200 they're doing this

00:37:46.080 to us on purpose,

00:37:48.100 that's the goal

00:37:49.160 and not only that,

00:37:53.360 we further know

00:37:54.420 that the higher reaches

00:37:55.840 of commercial society,

00:37:57.480 the thing we're supposed

00:37:58.220 to love,

00:37:59.200 is fully on board

00:38:00.480 with this.

00:38:02.060 Yeah, absolutely,

00:38:02.640 which goes right

00:38:03.840 into your third point

00:38:04.920 in the piece,

00:38:06.120 which is libertarians,

00:38:07.980 much like conservatives,

00:38:09.160 believe that big business

00:38:10.180 was at least

00:38:10.820 to some degree

00:38:11.460 their friend, right?

00:38:12.440 Like that this was an ally,

00:38:14.440 maybe it made mistakes,

00:38:15.480 maybe it cozied up

00:38:16.700 to the state

00:38:17.260 or had monopolistic practices

00:38:18.980 that you prefer,

00:38:20.300 but ultimately

00:38:21.000 these are capitalists,

00:38:22.780 they're on the side

00:38:23.640 of this process

00:38:25.060 and so they're something

00:38:26.840 that you can rely on,

00:38:27.920 but what we found

00:38:29.060 is that actually

00:38:30.520 they're more than happy

00:38:31.660 to buddy up

00:38:33.140 with the state

00:38:34.020 to import workers

00:38:35.300 that will,

00:38:36.480 you know,

00:38:36.720 sure,

00:38:37.340 you know,

00:38:37.580 lower labor costs

00:38:38.580 in the short term,

00:38:39.540 but doing so basically

00:38:40.760 by being subsidized

00:38:42.200 by the government itself.

00:38:43.940 So yeah,

00:38:44.380 they're creating

00:38:45.460 lower labor costs,

00:38:46.920 but by basically

00:38:48.120 just expropriating

00:38:49.840 the wealth

00:38:50.840 of the middle class

00:38:51.800 and filtering it down

00:38:53.140 and filtering it down

00:38:53.160 to subsidize

00:38:54.300 these people

00:38:55.300 who are being

00:38:56.000 introduced

00:38:57.600 to the labor market

00:38:58.820 by corporations

00:38:59.620 that are totally on board

00:39:00.880 with kind of funding

00:39:01.900 this state.

00:39:02.400 And so you see

00:39:02.960 this moment

00:39:04.000 where all of these

00:39:05.060 corporations

00:39:06.280 that many conservatives

00:39:07.400 believe were

00:39:08.180 at least nominally

00:39:09.080 culturally conservative

00:39:10.420 and libertarians

00:39:11.680 believe were economically

00:39:12.800 right wing

00:39:14.000 end up,

00:39:15.000 you know,

00:39:15.440 throwing themselves

00:39:16.480 behind the woke agenda

00:39:17.840 and lockdowns

00:39:19.040 and open borders

00:39:19.820 to get them

00:39:20.360 as many new labors

00:39:21.760 as possible.

00:39:22.440 And we see this

00:39:22.960 in Ohio right now,

00:39:24.220 right?

00:39:24.420 Everyone,

00:39:24.880 the defense for so many

00:39:25.920 on the left

00:39:26.400 or Springfield is,

00:39:27.340 well,

00:39:27.420 these immigrants

00:39:27.820 are reinvigorating

00:39:28.940 the economy

00:39:29.760 of Springfield,

00:39:30.820 Ohio

00:39:31.120 with the,

00:39:32.400 you know,

00:39:32.940 EBT cards

00:39:33.740 that we're giving them

00:39:34.560 to pay for the apartments

00:39:36.500 that they're now pricing

00:39:37.660 out the local workers

00:39:39.360 and local residents with.

00:39:41.320 It's not the exception,

00:39:42.360 it's the rule.

00:39:43.180 I mean,

00:39:43.380 not as immigration

00:39:44.180 would be taking place

00:39:45.100 without such organic

00:39:46.020 welfare state.

00:39:47.840 And yeah,

00:39:49.460 in the case of big business,

00:39:51.000 we might as well

00:39:51.740 plunge into that

00:39:52.420 because I made a point

00:39:53.620 that I think is,

00:39:54.680 is that libertarians

00:39:56.060 need to understand.

00:39:57.440 In the ethos of commerce,

00:39:59.180 the customer is always right.

00:40:00.880 Okay?

00:40:01.880 And that's,

00:40:02.480 we celebrate that.

00:40:03.560 Well,

00:40:03.740 what happens

00:40:04.380 if your,

00:40:05.280 if your,

00:40:05.880 if your main customer base

00:40:07.160 is in fact the government?

00:40:09.820 Well,

00:40:10.220 the customer is also

00:40:11.080 always right.

00:40:12.120 And that's what happened

00:40:13.160 to Amazon.

00:40:13.840 It happened to Microsoft,

00:40:14.900 it happened to Amazon,

00:40:15.820 it happened to,

00:40:16.740 Facebook,

00:40:18.620 it's happened to,

00:40:19.800 to all,

00:40:20.480 all the higher reaches

00:40:21.620 of the fortune 500s.

00:40:23.080 The government's become

00:40:24.220 the,

00:40:24.760 the main supply,

00:40:26.480 purchaser of their services.

00:40:29.220 And that has changed

00:40:30.960 fundamentally political loyalties.

00:40:32.840 We're talking about tens

00:40:33.780 and billions,

00:40:34.640 hundreds of billions of dollars

00:40:35.760 flowing from taxpayers

00:40:37.100 to big business.

00:40:38.400 And,

00:40:39.020 and the loyalties

00:40:39.700 of big business

00:40:40.340 have fundamentally changed.

00:40:41.400 This is different

00:40:41.940 from the 1980s

00:40:42.900 where the Chamber of Commerce

00:40:44.380 was reliably Republican,

00:40:46.480 you know,

00:40:46.720 reliably free,

00:40:47.740 pro-free enterprise.

00:40:49.160 And now that's no longer true.

00:40:51.880 And,

00:40:52.280 and,

00:40:52.660 and I don't know,

00:40:53.560 you know,

00:40:53.820 I don't know what the answer,

00:40:54.780 why I know what the answer is,

00:40:56.140 but,

00:40:56.480 but it's,

00:40:57.320 it's,

00:40:58.460 I kind of hatched

00:41:00.340 a theoretical answer.

00:41:01.300 It's very difficult

00:41:02.200 to have an answer

00:41:02.920 in practice.

00:41:03.840 These cover,

00:41:04.420 these companies have to

00:41:05.440 stop being on the take.

00:41:06.900 And,

00:41:07.440 you know,

00:41:07.780 and people do not

00:41:08.720 understand this either.

00:41:09.600 It's corrupted even advertising.

00:41:11.720 I think I go into this

00:41:12.720 in the piece a little bit,

00:41:13.680 but,

00:41:14.000 but mostly advertising

00:41:15.980 on,

00:41:16.320 on television news at night

00:41:17.680 is,

00:41:18.200 is provided by

00:41:19.700 pharmaceutical companies,

00:41:21.600 you know,

00:41:22.560 who have fully captured

00:41:24.120 the FDA,

00:41:25.040 wiped out

00:41:25.780 and,

00:41:26.240 you know,

00:41:26.520 got them indemnified

00:41:27.740 against selling you

00:41:28.380 liability for harm,

00:41:30.100 living off taxpayer subsidies,

00:41:32.000 cooperating in royalty payments

00:41:33.840 with the NIH

00:41:35.600 as a result of the Bayh-Dole Act

00:41:37.520 in the early 1980s.

00:41:39.600 And,

00:41:40.460 as a result,

00:41:41.800 all these companies

00:41:42.480 are basically,

00:41:44.400 you know,

00:41:44.980 as I say,

00:41:45.660 members of the

00:41:46.600 shallow state machinery.

00:41:48.480 And they're the ones

00:41:49.280 that are advertising

00:41:49.920 on television,

00:41:50.760 which is why,

00:41:52.080 and the,

00:41:52.500 and all the major media

00:41:54.620 is,

00:41:55.400 is now beholden

00:41:56.840 to the pharmaceutical companies,

00:41:58.160 which means

00:41:58.560 that they're beholden

00:41:59.160 to the state.

00:42:00.800 And that's the way

00:42:01.780 the system works.

00:42:02.640 That's why when lockdowns happen,

00:42:04.040 you turn on the TV news,

00:42:05.300 they were telling you

00:42:05.940 to stay home and stay safe

00:42:07.000 and don't go to Thanksgiving dinner

00:42:09.200 and don't go to church.

00:42:10.660 And that singing

00:42:11.160 and singing glories to God

00:42:13.580 only spreads disease, right?

00:42:15.060 I mean,

00:42:15.260 that's how and why

00:42:16.540 all this happened.

00:42:17.160 And that's how power

00:42:17.880 actually works.

00:42:19.220 So big businesses

00:42:19.980 have been thoroughly corrupted.

00:42:21.080 So the old Rothbardian distinction

00:42:24.620 between power and market

00:42:25.660 that he mapped out in 1963

00:42:27.460 becomes extremely muddy,

00:42:29.380 which he began to realize

00:42:30.580 during the Vietnam War.

00:42:31.560 He was like,

00:42:31.880 wait a minute,

00:42:32.760 this whole war

00:42:33.960 is being promoted

00:42:34.680 by the private enterprise

00:42:35.840 that I used to celebrate.

00:42:37.960 You know,

00:42:38.420 that's why he moved

00:42:39.480 to the left

00:42:40.120 because he was so outraged

00:42:41.580 to see the corruption.

00:42:43.180 But that was in the late 1960s,

00:42:45.300 you know,

00:42:45.600 bump forward

00:42:46.320 all these years later.

00:42:48.160 And you've got every,

00:42:50.460 all these,

00:42:51.160 it's not just munitions,

00:42:52.440 but it's pharmaceutical companies,

00:42:54.020 it's digital tech,

00:42:55.160 it's information,

00:42:57.120 technologies

00:42:58.340 and streaming services

00:42:59.520 and everything

00:43:00.360 and everybody's been corrupted

00:43:01.860 by now

00:43:03.500 and put into this

00:43:05.340 this borg

00:43:06.260 of state power.

00:43:08.980 And it's extremely wicked.

00:43:11.840 But libertarians

00:43:13.600 have just somehow failed

00:43:15.060 to really go

00:43:16.800 take the first step

00:43:17.940 and understand

00:43:18.500 the implications of this,

00:43:20.620 which shreds,

00:43:23.160 you know,

00:43:23.500 the simple ideological paradigms

00:43:25.420 of power and market.

00:43:27.540 By the way,

00:43:28.240 I love Murray

00:43:29.300 and it's fascinating

00:43:30.060 to follow his career.

00:43:33.200 Before he died in 1993,

00:43:37.320 he began to raise

00:43:38.480 fundamental questions

00:43:39.360 about all of these issues

00:43:40.900 in an article called

00:43:42.520 Nations by Consent,

00:43:43.660 which I read at the time

00:43:45.180 and I didn't like the article.

00:43:47.360 I was kind of outraged

00:43:48.860 that he would

00:43:49.760 say all these things.

00:43:51.260 But if you go back

00:43:51.940 and read it now,

00:43:52.620 he was completely prescient

00:43:54.760 on all these issues

00:43:55.960 of immigration,

00:43:57.380 about the nature of power,

00:43:59.000 the corruption

00:43:59.460 of private enterprise,

00:44:00.640 the rise of woke ideology,

00:44:03.540 you know,

00:44:03.760 all the demographic points.

00:44:05.100 I don't think he touched on trade

00:44:06.180 because I don't think

00:44:06.720 he was quite ready

00:44:08.100 to take that one on.

00:44:09.100 But I feel sure

00:44:10.420 that if he were around today,

00:44:11.440 I would love

00:44:13.140 to have a discussion

00:44:13.940 with him

00:44:14.280 about the trade issue, too.

00:44:15.420 So he was kind of

00:44:17.580 keeping up with the times

00:44:18.600 in a way

00:44:19.140 that made him unusual

00:44:20.320 among the libertarians.

00:44:22.620 And it's interesting

00:44:23.100 because, you know,

00:44:24.560 I don't know

00:44:25.700 about all the

00:44:26.380 theoreticians out there.

00:44:28.320 I don't know

00:44:28.660 what they're addressing.

00:44:29.420 But I do know

00:44:30.740 just from my travels,

00:44:31.980 from my interactions,

00:44:32.740 that plenty of people,

00:44:34.120 you know,

00:44:34.720 carrying the libertarian banner

00:44:35.960 like Tom Woods

00:44:37.760 and Dave Smith

00:44:39.340 and others,

00:44:40.420 you know,

00:44:40.800 that I've talked about

00:44:41.300 are, you know,

00:44:42.540 they're trying to address this.

00:44:44.520 They are thinking

00:44:44.960 through these issues.

00:44:45.880 These are things

00:44:46.880 that they're trying to square.

00:44:48.120 And at the end

00:44:49.020 of this article,

00:44:50.740 you know,

00:44:51.040 you do seem

00:44:52.540 to still have hope

00:44:53.760 for libertarianism.

00:44:55.880 This is not,

00:44:56.540 even though you're

00:44:57.240 asking big questions

00:44:58.880 and important questions,

00:45:00.360 it does seem

00:45:01.020 that ultimately

00:45:02.040 you do feel like

00:45:02.900 there is a future

00:45:03.820 for libertarianism.

00:45:04.840 And I want to ask you

00:45:05.540 because, you know,

00:45:06.800 I come obviously

00:45:07.800 from a more conservative bent,

00:45:09.340 but there was this moment

00:45:10.660 and I know libertarians

00:45:11.700 hate it when I say this,

00:45:12.680 but this is just how

00:45:13.660 we saw it from the right.

00:45:14.660 So they can, you know,

00:45:15.680 if they don't like it

00:45:16.360 in the comments,

00:45:16.840 they can yell at me.

00:45:17.540 But, you know,

00:45:18.260 there was this understanding

00:45:19.400 when I was kind of

00:45:20.720 a young man

00:45:21.760 listening to guys

00:45:23.020 like Neil Bortz

00:45:23.860 and others on the radio

00:45:24.840 that the conservative movement

00:45:27.580 was going to become libertarian.

00:45:28.880 That that was the way forward,

00:45:30.200 right?

00:45:30.440 That we were going to,

00:45:31.800 we were going to keep

00:45:32.480 a little bit

00:45:32.940 of the conservative understanding,

00:45:34.540 but we were going to have

00:45:35.200 the economic openness.

00:45:37.200 Culturally,

00:45:37.680 it would be a little more

00:45:38.220 live and let live.

00:45:39.340 The government would just

00:45:40.060 get out of everything.

00:45:41.480 And that was the way forward,

00:45:42.740 right?

00:45:42.980 This was what conservatism,

00:45:45.320 what the right would look like

00:45:46.620 moving forward.

00:45:47.560 And I think you,

00:45:48.040 you're kind of addressing this

00:45:49.240 when you're talking about

00:45:49.980 the libertarian moment

00:45:51.140 and how it wasn't seized upon

00:45:52.660 and how it seemed

00:45:53.180 to come apart.

00:45:53.820 And for many of us

00:45:55.900 who had that leaning,

00:45:57.620 we kind of went down

00:45:58.380 a different direction,

00:45:59.380 right?

00:45:59.740 A lot of people call this

00:46:00.800 the neo-reactionary

00:46:02.320 ring of things.

00:46:04.540 Which I,

00:46:05.200 and I know you know this,

00:46:06.740 but I was ferociously

00:46:08.540 against this turn.

00:46:09.840 You know,

00:46:10.280 I think,

00:46:11.040 I think probably a decade ago,

00:46:13.040 you were,

00:46:13.680 you and I would have been

00:46:14.620 very much at odds.

00:46:15.800 And I,

00:46:16.100 and I wrote a book

00:46:17.040 actually about it.

00:46:17.760 It's called,

00:46:18.240 it's called

00:46:19.880 right-wing collectivism,

00:46:22.040 the other threat to liberty.

00:46:23.380 Oh,

00:46:23.560 I didn't know this.

00:46:24.240 Okay.

00:46:24.480 Yeah,

00:46:24.680 no,

00:46:25.000 I mean,

00:46:25.340 I,

00:46:25.540 so I,

00:46:26.080 you know,

00:46:26.340 and I tore into all the thinkers

00:46:28.180 you cite favorably,

00:46:29.740 not to juvenile so much,

00:46:30.880 but I went after Schmidt.

00:46:32.980 Well,

00:46:33.140 he is a libertarian.

00:46:34.260 He just,

00:46:34.620 he's just,

00:46:35.040 you know,

00:46:35.260 he's one that actually

00:46:36.040 understands power.

00:46:36.940 That's,

00:46:37.240 that's his.

00:46:38.000 I went after Schmidt.

00:46:38.780 I went after Demaestra

00:46:39.600 and you got this whole

00:46:40.360 tradition of thought.

00:46:43.840 Okay.

00:46:44.320 So,

00:46:44.760 wow,

00:46:45.160 there's a lot of things

00:46:45.760 I wanted to say about where,

00:46:46.780 so,

00:46:47.220 what I would like to see

00:46:51.400 is a plainer kind

00:46:52.840 of libertarianism

00:46:53.820 devoid of,

00:46:55.620 of rationalistic ideology.

00:46:59.280 And by I say

00:47:00.160 a plainer version,

00:47:01.720 I mean the kind

00:47:03.280 that emerged initially

00:47:04.260 in 1954

00:47:05.120 with an article

00:47:05.860 by Dean Russell

00:47:06.620 that was the very first article

00:47:08.900 in the American press

00:47:10.220 that,

00:47:10.680 that decided to revive

00:47:11.920 the word libertarianism.

00:47:13.200 And what was his point?

00:47:15.660 His point was

00:47:16.860 that before World War II

00:47:18.080 and before the New Deal,

00:47:20.980 people who thought

00:47:22.740 like he did

00:47:23.240 were against welfare,

00:47:24.280 warfare state,

00:47:25.080 they wanted,

00:47:25.660 you know,

00:47:25.880 normal lives,

00:47:26.980 normal people,

00:47:27.640 freedom.

00:47:27.960 He maps out all the points

00:47:29.540 that I think

00:47:30.040 he would agree with.

00:47:31.600 And he said,

00:47:32.520 unfortunately,

00:47:33.180 we used to call ourselves

00:47:34.260 liberals,

00:47:34.860 so now we can't do that

00:47:35.940 because that word

00:47:36.520 has been taken from us.

00:47:37.640 And there had been

00:47:38.740 a long period,

00:47:39.620 like five years,

00:47:40.520 in which everybody

00:47:41.040 was trying to figure out

00:47:41.640 what should we call ourselves,

00:47:42.960 right?

00:47:43.780 People who just champion

00:47:44.820 the rights of families

00:47:45.820 and communities

00:47:46.520 to live and thrive

00:47:47.620 on their own

00:47:48.100 and have normal lives.

00:47:49.320 It's not that complicated.

00:47:50.860 Keep your property,

00:47:52.280 you know,

00:47:52.600 have freedom of movement,

00:47:54.720 be left alone,

00:47:55.820 basically.

00:47:57.480 What should we call ourselves?

00:47:58.660 And there were all kinds

00:47:59.460 of words offered out there.

00:48:02.860 Well, you know,

00:48:03.620 I'm a conservative liberal.

00:48:05.000 I'm a liberal conservative.

00:48:06.320 I'm a, you know,

00:48:06.840 I'm a constitutionalist.

00:48:07.980 I'm a, you know.

00:48:08.620 And so this one guy,

00:48:09.580 Dean Russell,

00:48:10.020 says,

00:48:10.340 well, you know what

00:48:10.720 we really should call ourselves.

00:48:11.940 Let's just take up

00:48:13.220 the old mantle,

00:48:14.180 the old term,

00:48:15.840 which was popular

00:48:16.640 at this point

00:48:18.740 a half century ago

00:48:20.680 called libertarianism.

00:48:23.300 And he mapped out

00:48:24.020 what they believed in.

00:48:24.820 It's all the things

00:48:25.360 I just mentioned,

00:48:26.000 all the things

00:48:26.360 you would agree with.

00:48:27.760 So that's the kind of sense.

00:48:29.400 But then as the decades progressed,

00:48:31.680 suddenly we got

00:48:32.380 ever more rationalism,

00:48:34.040 you know,

00:48:34.200 ever more,

00:48:34.900 of these typologies

00:48:36.320 and these ideological constructions

00:48:40.000 and really a kind of

00:48:41.920 a strange central plan

00:48:43.780 for how we're going

00:48:44.460 to impose liberty

00:48:45.220 on the world,

00:48:46.060 including criminal codes

00:48:48.520 and God knows what else.

00:48:49.720 It was just,

00:48:50.260 it got out of hand

00:48:51.200 at some point.

00:48:52.540 But I would like

00:48:53.240 to recapture

00:48:53.780 that original understanding

00:48:54.880 of the term,

00:48:56.420 which was just

00:48:57.860 as a replacement

00:48:58.540 for liberal

00:48:59.260 as it was commonly used

00:49:02.080 before the New Deal

00:49:03.340 in the early part

00:49:04.720 of the 20th century.

00:49:06.300 So free speech,

00:49:08.340 recognize your property rights,

00:49:09.880 your freedom

00:49:10.300 to raise your family,

00:49:11.520 live and develop

00:49:13.180 within a community structure,

00:49:15.680 a spontaneously ordering society,

00:49:17.860 something not controlled

00:49:18.760 by a central plan,

00:49:19.740 that sort of thing,

00:49:20.360 which I think

00:49:20.820 you agree with entirely.

00:49:22.200 So that's the sense

00:49:23.060 of libertarianism

00:49:23.800 I'd like to personally recapture.

00:49:26.920 You know,

00:49:27.220 Peter Thiel

00:49:27.780 and obviously Hans-Hermann Hoppe

00:49:29.620 have both pointed out

00:49:30.980 that democracy

00:49:32.460 and liberty

00:49:33.240 may not be compatible.

00:49:35.520 Right.

00:49:35.860 Do you,

00:49:36.640 where do you stand on that?

00:49:37.900 Do you think

00:49:38.200 that they have a point there?

00:49:39.360 Well, I mean,

00:49:40.080 you only need to,

00:49:40.860 again,

00:49:41.560 I have to point readers

00:49:42.400 back to your book

00:49:43.000 because you take this apart

00:49:44.360 very carefully.

00:49:45.200 But if you read

00:49:46.600 The Federalist,

00:49:47.260 I mean,

00:49:47.440 these guys did not believe

00:49:48.420 in mass democracy.

00:49:49.460 That's why we have

00:49:50.020 an electoral college.

00:49:51.180 All right?

00:49:51.580 So,

00:49:52.180 and nobody these days

00:49:53.180 even knows,

00:49:53.660 why do we have

00:49:54.000 an electoral college?

00:49:54.740 Well,

00:49:54.860 because otherwise

00:49:55.820 all the urban centers

00:49:57.060 in the country

00:49:57.580 would enact

00:49:59.260 a one-party dictatorship

00:50:00.280 instantly

00:50:00.860 and wipe out,

00:50:02.440 you know,

00:50:03.000 all states' rights

00:50:04.500 and all rural areas

00:50:05.500 and all normal things

00:50:06.940 and the whole world

00:50:07.880 would look like

00:50:08.760 Times Square.

00:50:11.020 Okay?

00:50:11.360 So that's why

00:50:12.120 we have an electoral college.

00:50:13.320 That's also why

00:50:14.540 we had a bicameral Congress

00:50:16.740 where the Senate

00:50:18.040 would represent the state

00:50:19.160 and the Senate

00:50:19.980 was appointed.

00:50:20.640 and the 17th Amendment

00:50:23.140 came along

00:50:23.600 in 1913

00:50:25.060 and blasted that away.

00:50:26.320 So your book

00:50:26.920 goes through this history.

00:50:28.040 The founding fathers

00:50:28.960 were not believers

00:50:31.220 in, you know,

00:50:31.980 whatever you call

00:50:32.500 democracy as such.

00:50:34.660 What they were trying

00:50:35.960 to do

00:50:36.400 was come up

00:50:36.980 with a republic

00:50:39.880 with a federalist structure.

00:50:41.700 And it was a valiant,

00:50:45.520 I think you agree with it,

00:50:46.800 it was a valiant attempt.

00:50:48.300 It was really very beautiful.

00:50:50.160 You know,

00:50:50.340 I like the federalist papers.

00:50:51.680 I also like the

00:50:52.200 anti-federalist papers,

00:50:53.280 by the way.

00:50:53.740 I think they're pretty good too.

00:50:55.480 But the original structure

00:50:56.660 is quite wonderful

00:50:57.200 but it's been blown up

00:50:58.240 by the 16th Amendment,

00:50:59.520 by the 17th Amendment

00:51:00.640 in particular,

00:51:02.000 one,

00:51:02.260 the income tax,

00:51:02.980 the other,

00:51:03.400 the direct election,

00:51:04.380 the senators.

00:51:05.200 So if we can capture

00:51:06.340 that original,

00:51:06.940 and again,

00:51:07.660 I think this comes

00:51:08.460 from your book,

00:51:09.360 we can recapture

00:51:10.500 that original vision

00:51:11.560 Now,

00:51:12.500 if you want to call

00:51:13.140 that democracy,

00:51:14.720 you know,

00:51:15.180 in the broad sense,

00:51:16.500 meaning the people should,

00:51:18.420 the people in a nation

00:51:20.260 should have some kind

00:51:22.580 of stake

00:51:23.560 and judgmental influence

00:51:26.500 over the kind of regime

00:51:27.920 under which they live,

00:51:29.200 that to me is compatible

00:51:30.980 with the liberal vision.

00:51:32.420 And I don't see a problem

00:51:33.520 with that.

00:51:34.400 But this idea

00:51:36.040 of mob rule,

00:51:37.160 you know,

00:51:37.800 of popular vote,

00:51:40.240 of turning the Senate

00:51:43.080 into another version

00:51:43.900 of the House

00:51:44.460 or eliminating

00:51:45.420 the Electoral College

00:51:46.160 and eliminating

00:51:48.060 all those mediating

00:51:49.260 institutional structures,

00:51:51.280 that is intolerable

00:51:53.920 and a prescription

00:51:54.940 for tyranny.

00:51:55.760 No question about it.

00:51:56.740 Well,

00:51:57.720 I think the mixed

00:51:58.360 constitution ultimately

00:52:00.040 relies on awareness

00:52:02.540 of social institutions

00:52:04.880 and spheres of authority

00:52:06.140 that are non-governmental,

00:52:07.500 which, of course,

00:52:08.040 libertarians would be

00:52:09.180 huge fans of.

00:52:10.780 But it does require,

00:52:12.220 think,

00:52:12.480 a level of collectivism

00:52:13.700 that many libertarians

00:52:14.740 are uncomfortable with.

00:52:17.080 You know,

00:52:17.180 in order to oppose the state,

00:52:19.280 it's not the individual

00:52:20.520 that opposes the state.

00:52:21.720 It's other authorities.

00:52:24.880 It's rival social authorities

00:52:26.680 that oppose the state,

00:52:28.080 which is why...

00:52:28.880 Well, it's religions.

00:52:29.420 It's religions, right?

00:52:30.780 Right.

00:52:32.080 And this is an empirical point.

00:52:34.380 Look what happened

00:52:35.060 at COVID.

00:52:35.500 I mean,

00:52:35.680 who resisted

00:52:36.640 the COVID controls?

00:52:38.400 Just ask yourself

00:52:39.160 that question.

00:52:39.880 I mean,

00:52:40.020 it was the Amish,

00:52:41.480 Orthodox Jews,

00:52:43.320 traditionalist Catholics,

00:52:46.160 Mormons,

00:52:47.220 and then later

00:52:48.220 the evangelicals, right?

00:52:50.200 But the secular elites

00:52:51.960 never got around.

00:52:53.600 I mean,

00:52:53.720 they're still masked up.

00:52:56.340 So, you know,

00:52:57.900 these kinds of things

00:52:58.600 are really important.

00:52:59.380 It's also family structures,

00:53:00.960 you know,

00:53:01.140 which is why

00:53:01.780 the COVID-shattered families

00:53:04.600 that said,

00:53:05.040 oh, you know,

00:53:05.660 everybody should get vaccinated.

00:53:07.920 And that led

00:53:08.980 to a lot of divorces

00:53:10.220 and shattering relationships

00:53:12.840 between kids

00:53:13.820 and their parents.

00:53:14.540 You remember

00:53:14.800 Deborah Birx

00:53:15.600 in one press conference

00:53:16.500 said,

00:53:17.220 and now I'm going

00:53:17.960 to make a special appeal

00:53:19.540 to all the young people.

00:53:21.220 You have to help us

00:53:22.280 in this great war

00:53:23.300 against the virus.

00:53:24.660 And the young people said,

00:53:25.500 oh, finally,

00:53:26.000 I've got a mission,

00:53:26.720 you know,

00:53:27.100 screw you,

00:53:27.660 mom and dad.

00:53:30.120 Yeah,

00:53:30.520 the family is extremely important.

00:53:32.320 And libertarianism

00:53:33.780 in its 1970s iteration,

00:53:36.760 60s and 70s,

00:53:37.860 really,

00:53:38.620 never has come to term

00:53:39.760 with the meaning

00:53:40.260 of the family.

00:53:41.180 I mean,

00:53:41.400 they have no idea

00:53:42.420 what to do about kids.

00:53:43.260 There are no kids

00:53:43.780 in Rand's books.

00:53:44.840 Yeah,

00:53:45.060 that's one of my favorite points.

00:53:46.340 There's no kids

00:53:46.820 in a Ayn Rand novel.

00:53:47.520 And now we're dealing

00:53:50.580 with weird crap going on

00:53:52.700 where,

00:53:52.980 you know,

00:53:53.340 government's telling kids

00:53:55.120 to cut off their genitals,

00:53:56.260 you know,

00:53:56.520 and their parents are like,

00:53:57.740 man,

00:53:57.880 I'm not so sure

00:53:58.380 that's right thing.

00:53:59.480 And the state's intervening

00:54:00.860 on behalf

00:54:01.580 of trans rights

00:54:03.760 and taking kids away

00:54:05.360 from their pets

00:54:05.800 is really going on.

00:54:06.900 And this is all happening

00:54:07.680 very,

00:54:08.140 very fast.

00:54:08.860 All right,

00:54:09.120 what's the libertarian answer

00:54:10.100 to that?

00:54:11.900 Well,

00:54:12.320 according to the current

00:54:13.100 libertarian candidate,

00:54:14.260 it seems like he's

00:54:15.340 kind of a fan.

00:54:16.120 When he wants it funded

00:54:17.580 by the government.

00:54:19.580 But,

00:54:20.100 you know,

00:54:21.360 this kind of wacky

00:54:22.560 libertarianism

00:54:23.260 that's out there

00:54:23.900 that denies reality,

00:54:25.480 denies biological reality.

00:54:27.180 No,

00:54:28.080 it's freedom

00:54:29.440 to be able to become

00:54:30.320 a woman

00:54:30.760 or become a man.

00:54:32.180 We're going to all

00:54:32.820 become transhumanoids

00:54:34.080 and live forever.

00:54:35.640 What does that have

00:54:36.480 to do with anything?

00:54:37.400 I mean,

00:54:37.580 this is not consistent

00:54:38.900 with any plain understanding

00:54:40.420 of freedom

00:54:40.980 or liberty

00:54:41.540 that

00:54:42.900 Thomas Jefferson

00:54:46.340 would have recognized.

00:54:48.040 Well,

00:54:48.100 obviously,

00:54:48.700 like I said,

00:54:49.140 I already mentioned

00:54:49.620 a couple of guys

00:54:50.860 that I know

00:54:51.520 from inside

00:54:52.420 the libertarian movement

00:54:53.440 who are noticing

00:54:54.800 as many problems

00:54:55.660 that you're pointing out

00:54:56.560 and trying to find

00:54:57.500 a way forward.

00:54:58.760 And so,

00:54:59.100 do you think ultimately

00:55:00.040 there is a way

00:55:03.300 because this really

00:55:04.740 is the issue

00:55:05.360 and of course,

00:55:05.860 I know you're familiar

00:55:06.560 because we've talked

00:55:07.520 about the book

00:55:08.020 and I appreciate you

00:55:08.760 being so kind

00:55:09.320 about the book.

00:55:10.260 I like that.

00:55:11.160 But,

00:55:11.480 you know,

00:55:13.600 I feel like

00:55:14.840 there is simply

00:55:16.060 a problem,

00:55:16.940 as you point out

00:55:17.440 in the piece too,

00:55:18.380 of just scale.

00:55:19.300 The institutions

00:55:20.140 required to compete

00:55:21.300 politically

00:55:21.860 are the very things

00:55:23.220 that keep you

00:55:23.900 from competing

00:55:24.500 in any real sense.

00:55:25.880 You have to buy in

00:55:26.780 sufficiently into the system

00:55:28.540 in order to

00:55:30.180 actually compete

00:55:31.820 and once you've done that,

00:55:33.080 then the,

00:55:33.840 you know,

00:55:34.340 the structure of the system

00:55:35.640 compels you

00:55:36.560 towards a particular outcome.

00:55:37.920 Is there a way

00:55:38.480 that libertarians

00:55:39.280 can organize

00:55:40.420 without falling

00:55:41.400 into this trap

00:55:42.540 or is this just

00:55:43.940 a symptom

00:55:45.460 of the current system

00:55:46.340 and any ideology,

00:55:47.720 be it conservative,

00:55:48.560 liberal,

00:55:49.180 you know,

00:55:49.540 libertarian,

00:55:50.340 is going to inevitably

00:55:51.540 fall into reinforcing

00:55:53.140 the regime

00:55:53.840 if they try to play

00:55:55.100 that current game?

00:55:56.600 To be clear,

00:55:57.240 I'm really happy

00:55:57.800 to get rid of the word

00:55:58.660 and the hyper-rationalistic

00:56:02.120 ideology too.

00:56:03.100 I don't really think

00:56:03.920 it serves much purpose.

00:56:05.660 In fact,

00:56:06.220 if you look

00:56:06.820 at the structures

00:56:08.180 of libertarianism

00:56:09.160 we know it now,

00:56:10.160 there are really

00:56:10.720 three levels.

00:56:11.520 I mean,

00:56:11.660 there's academic libertarianism,

00:56:13.360 which is by and large

00:56:15.680 utterly and completely

00:56:16.720 useless

00:56:17.700 with the exception

00:56:18.860 of maybe five people

00:56:20.860 and then you've got

00:56:22.680 the professional structure

00:56:24.040 of libertarians

00:56:24.560 that live within

00:56:25.680 non-profits

00:56:26.700 and they're not just useless,

00:56:27.960 they're actually destructive.

00:56:28.880 And then you've got

00:56:31.660 the sort of grassroots

00:56:32.480 like the free state movement

00:56:33.760 and that sort of thing

00:56:34.640 and your podcasting friends

00:56:37.960 and that sort of stuff.

00:56:38.740 These people are living

00:56:39.860 within communities

00:56:40.920 and have developed

00:56:42.120 followings of their own,

00:56:43.740 of normal people

00:56:44.940 who,

00:56:46.300 on particular issues,

00:56:47.720 you know,

00:56:47.980 who are concerned

00:56:48.860 about the future

00:56:49.480 of civilization,

00:56:51.100 packed about what

00:56:52.300 to do about it.

00:56:53.020 They don't want war,

00:56:53.980 they don't want welfare,

00:56:54.920 they don't want to have

00:56:55.400 their communities invaded,

00:56:56.500 they don't want their kids

00:56:57.960 to cutting off their genitals

00:56:59.060 and so on.

00:57:00.320 And these are the people

00:57:02.180 that I think

00:57:02.860 can make a very valuable

00:57:04.260 contribution

00:57:05.000 to rebuilding

00:57:06.720 because they're rebuilding

00:57:07.680 from within their structures

00:57:08.860 or their own communities.

00:57:10.340 You see this taking place

00:57:11.700 in New Hampshire.

00:57:12.680 Yes.

00:57:13.500 All of us,

00:57:14.440 this is one of the reasons

00:57:15.040 I've continued,

00:57:16.780 after dropping off,

00:57:18.280 you know,

00:57:18.620 refusing to go

00:57:19.720 to any other libertarian events,

00:57:21.440 I still like to go

00:57:22.940 to Porkfest

00:57:23.420 because they're real families

00:57:24.900 doing real things

00:57:25.720 and, you know,

00:57:26.420 they're cattle ranchers

00:57:27.680 and soap makers

00:57:28.440 and ice cream people.

00:57:29.320 They're like normal

00:57:29.980 human beings,

00:57:31.120 you know.

00:57:31.940 These,

00:57:32.800 they're not professional

00:57:33.980 codified

00:57:35.500 Cap-El libertarians,

00:57:37.080 you know,

00:57:37.280 and those people

00:57:38.200 can make a really

00:57:39.360 powerful contribution,

00:57:41.120 I think,

00:57:41.700 to the future.

00:57:42.540 And again,

00:57:43.100 whether it's under

00:57:43.680 that name or not,

00:57:45.380 as I say,

00:57:46.160 I don't,

00:57:46.680 I'm kind of sick

00:57:47.240 of the word.

00:57:48.080 I don't even use it anymore

00:57:49.400 because nobody knows

00:57:50.940 really what it means.

00:57:52.460 It's too confusing.

00:57:53.680 It can mean anything,

00:57:54.740 essentially.

00:57:55.540 But I think,

00:57:55.980 I think those people

00:57:56.760 can,

00:57:58.220 and Tom Woods

00:57:58.760 is doing,

00:57:59.320 you know,

00:57:59.580 great work.

00:58:00.060 They're very,

00:58:00.760 they're very good

00:58:02.200 people that,

00:58:03.800 that come out

00:58:04.740 of a libertarian tradition

00:58:05.800 that are doing

00:58:06.360 mighty work.

00:58:07.940 Yeah,

00:58:08.120 Jerry.

00:58:08.460 I would say the same thing

00:58:09.720 about,

00:58:10.060 about the left

00:58:10.800 and the right.

00:58:11.460 I mean,

00:58:11.720 the Brownstone Institute

00:58:13.100 is a funny,

00:58:13.880 and I don't know

00:58:14.660 how much you follow

00:58:15.440 our work,

00:58:15.920 but it's a funny

00:58:16.520 amalgam of people

00:58:17.700 from really all over

00:58:19.180 the place

00:58:19.700 that are really concerned

00:58:21.180 about the rise

00:58:23.080 of this blob,

00:58:24.300 this beast

00:58:24.720 of the Goliath,

00:58:25.560 the head of Hegemon,

00:58:26.840 and how to preserve

00:58:27.620 privacy and liberty

00:58:29.080 and rights

00:58:30.440 and some normal

00:58:32.080 sense of life

00:58:32.880 even in the midst

00:58:34.280 of this grave crisis.

00:58:35.720 And they can come

00:58:36.500 from any,

00:58:37.200 from any direction.

00:58:38.500 I've learned a lot

00:58:39.680 from people from the left,

00:58:40.760 a lot from people

00:58:41.580 from the right.

00:58:42.840 Less so

00:58:43.480 of libertarians

00:58:44.920 simply because

00:58:45.400 they seem to know less.

00:58:47.020 But nonetheless,

00:58:48.100 I think they can be

00:58:49.260 valuable in the future.

00:58:50.160 Yeah,

00:58:51.400 I've had,

00:58:51.900 I believe it was

00:58:53.380 Jeremy Kaufman,

00:58:54.500 who's now famous

00:58:55.520 because of his FBI showdown,

00:58:57.240 but I had him on before.

00:58:59.060 You know,

00:58:59.280 he was super cool.

00:59:01.100 But,

00:59:01.300 you know,

00:59:01.540 we,

00:59:02.620 of course,

00:59:03.740 disagreed on a few things,

00:59:05.600 but we both heavily focused

00:59:07.360 on this idea

00:59:08.300 of the localism

00:59:10.080 controlling the,

00:59:11.460 you know,

00:59:11.740 the sheriff,

00:59:13.080 the local apparatus,

00:59:14.400 the county apparatus,

00:59:15.680 the state apparatus,

00:59:16.940 that great sort,

00:59:19.180 that concentrates people

00:59:20.760 of like mind

00:59:21.520 and like value

00:59:22.280 and allows them

00:59:22.980 to make meaningful connections

00:59:24.300 in the real world

00:59:25.740 and not just keep everything

00:59:27.080 wildly hypothetical

00:59:28.240 in some DC think tank,

00:59:29.740 but actually put it

00:59:30.720 into practice.

00:59:31.700 And once you put things

00:59:32.880 like that on the ground,

00:59:34.220 you quickly find

00:59:35.400 that there's a lot more

00:59:37.220 that connects you

00:59:38.160 and that you can make

00:59:38.960 a lot more

00:59:39.780 real world advancements

00:59:43.000 once you kind of strip away

00:59:44.500 all this theoretical division,

00:59:47.060 all of this abstract.

00:59:48.020 And so I'm with you

00:59:49.880 in that maybe leaving

00:59:52.580 the ideology,

00:59:54.080 understanding that

00:59:54.720 the shared value

00:59:55.480 is more important

00:59:56.240 than the specific ideology

00:59:57.720 and what advancements

00:59:59.120 are there.

00:59:59.580 And when you have

01:00:00.240 the organic community,

01:00:01.120 when you have that,

01:00:02.420 then you can say,

01:00:03.320 what are the needs

01:00:04.200 of this community?

01:00:05.440 What works for these people

01:00:06.940 that we're serving?

01:00:08.340 And,

01:00:08.600 you know,

01:00:09.260 because they have

01:00:09.880 that aligned vision

01:00:10.660 and those aligned values,

01:00:12.020 it will resemble

01:00:13.400 aspects of the ideology,

01:00:15.380 but it will be grounded

01:00:16.580 in a real existence

01:00:18.600 rather than being

01:00:19.720 something that you're

01:00:20.500 just trying to,

01:00:21.420 you know,

01:00:22.120 fund with Coke dollars

01:00:23.940 or something.

01:00:24.800 And so that's,

01:00:25.540 yeah,

01:00:25.720 I think that's a radical change.

01:00:27.440 I can tell you,

01:00:28.260 like,

01:00:28.380 I just,

01:00:28.900 I'm coming out

01:00:30.060 of a three-day retreat

01:00:31.680 that we hold

01:00:32.120 for Brownstone scholars

01:00:33.120 and fellows

01:00:33.680 that we meet in a hotel

01:00:34.960 and just discuss issues,

01:00:36.580 you know,

01:00:36.820 whether it's doctors,

01:00:37.860 it's lawyers,

01:00:38.460 scientists,

01:00:39.800 economists,

01:00:40.620 it's just,

01:00:41.260 it's interdisciplinary,

01:00:42.660 historians,

01:00:43.300 essayists,

01:00:44.260 journalists,

01:00:44.800 you know,

01:00:44.960 all kinds of people.

01:00:46.080 And we just,

01:00:46.860 there's 40 of us

01:00:47.740 that meet

01:00:48.060 and we just talk

01:00:48.800 for three days

01:00:49.380 about all these issues.

01:00:50.720 And I tell you,

01:00:51.280 there's one thing

01:00:51.660 we don't talk about

01:00:52.420 as political ideology

01:00:53.700 because it's boring.

01:00:55.160 It's just boring.

01:00:57.160 If you want to,

01:00:59.800 this analogy

01:01:01.140 will make sense

01:01:01.820 for some people,

01:01:02.560 not others,

01:01:03.100 but if you want

01:01:04.200 to think about ideology

01:01:05.360 as being like

01:01:06.600 the scales

01:01:07.200 and arpeggios

01:01:07.960 that you learn

01:01:08.880 when you're practicing piano

01:01:11.440 before you're actually

01:01:12.320 playing music,

01:01:13.800 you know,

01:01:14.700 that can be very useful,

01:01:15.780 maybe even essential.

01:01:17.100 But at some point

01:01:17.680 you have to start

01:01:18.060 playing music.

01:01:19.600 And if you had

01:01:20.380 a piano competition

01:01:21.300 where everybody got up

01:01:22.120 and started to play

01:01:23.120 scales and arpeggios,

01:01:24.180 you might think

01:01:24.640 it was ridiculous.

01:01:26.620 This is preposterous.

01:01:28.040 This isn't,

01:01:28.540 this isn't a concert.

01:01:30.120 This isn't a piano competition.

01:01:32.200 This is not even music.

01:01:33.520 This is just silliness.

01:01:34.960 Well, unfortunately,

01:01:36.340 libertarians got stuck

01:01:37.420 for decades

01:01:37.940 playing arpeggios

01:01:39.280 and scales

01:01:39.880 and never got around

01:01:41.060 to playing the music,

01:01:42.140 right?

01:01:42.880 So, you know,

01:01:43.960 to organize things,

01:01:44.940 if you want to

01:01:45.340 into a serious

01:01:46.000 intellectual life,

01:01:46.900 you have to ask yourself,

01:01:47.980 you know,

01:01:48.160 what music are you playing?

01:01:49.980 Is it beautiful?

01:01:51.360 How's it going to go together?

01:01:52.740 You know,

01:01:52.860 how's it going to present

01:01:53.600 itself to the world?

01:01:55.660 That,

01:01:56.020 it's the music

01:01:56.560 that we need to,

01:01:57.920 that should,

01:01:58.420 that will inspire us,

01:01:59.840 not scales.

01:02:01.400 I think that's well put.

01:02:02.660 That's a great place

01:02:03.280 to end it.

01:02:03.820 All right,

01:02:04.120 so we have a question

01:02:05.520 or two from the audience.

01:02:06.760 Before we get there,

01:02:07.300 Jeffrey,

01:02:07.940 where can people

01:02:08.540 find your work?

01:02:10.340 I post on Exelot.

01:02:12.740 It's my favorite

01:02:13.620 temporarily

01:02:14.820 quasi-free platform.

01:02:16.700 We'll see if it survives

01:02:18.140 a Kamala presidency.

01:02:20.740 And then otherwise,

01:02:22.460 I write for

01:02:23.580 the Epoch Times

01:02:24.240 every day,

01:02:25.300 which is a great venue.

01:02:27.160 I write there every day.

01:02:28.820 And then I write

01:02:30.140 for and organize

01:02:31.700 and edit

01:02:32.420 brownstone.org.

01:02:33.940 So my contact information

01:02:36.080 is on all those locations.

01:02:38.280 Excellent.

01:02:38.780 Guys,

01:02:39.060 make sure to read the piece.

01:02:40.060 Like I said,

01:02:40.480 we only really brushed over

01:02:42.260 some parts of it,

01:02:44.140 but I felt,

01:02:44.640 like I said,

01:02:45.140 I wanted to talk to Jeffrey

01:02:46.180 because I thought it was

01:02:46.920 so honest and in-depth

01:02:48.660 and willing to

01:02:50.360 look at issues

01:02:52.180 that you just don't see

01:02:53.280 libertarians usually,

01:02:54.320 you know,

01:02:55.040 actually address.

01:02:55.780 So I think you should

01:02:57.140 check out that

01:02:57.700 along with the rest

01:02:58.340 of his work.

01:02:59.120 Let's see here.

01:02:59.960 We've got Creeper Weirdo

01:03:01.240 says,

01:03:01.820 but John Sossel said

01:03:02.700 that libertarian candidates

01:03:03.760 want to leave you alone.

01:03:04.840 Doesn't that sound nice?

01:03:07.180 Yeah,

01:03:07.620 obviously the catchphrase,

01:03:09.300 you know,

01:03:09.780 I've got the,

01:03:10.980 one of the tweets

01:03:12.060 I've got that kind of went wide

01:03:13.240 is,

01:03:13.620 you know,

01:03:13.800 the team that wants to win

01:03:15.040 always beats the team

01:03:15.820 that wants to be left alone.

01:03:17.420 And it does feel like

01:03:18.280 that's a core,

01:03:19.220 a core problem

01:03:20.340 with libertarianism.

01:03:21.560 You have to win

01:03:22.300 before you get to be left alone.

01:03:23.580 And they often want to

01:03:24.180 skip the winning

01:03:24.720 and just be left alone.

01:03:25.780 Well,

01:03:26.000 I'm glad the libertarian

01:03:26.760 candidates want to leave you alone,

01:03:27.940 but Google doesn't want

01:03:29.680 to leave you alone

01:03:30.240 and neither does Amazon.

01:03:32.720 Neither does,

01:03:33.620 does the main,

01:03:34.500 mainstream media.

01:03:35.860 Neither do the 2.4 million

01:03:38.760 members of the middle state

01:03:40.440 and the uncountable members

01:03:41.720 of deep state employees

01:03:42.820 about which we know

01:03:43.860 absolutely nothing.

01:03:44.700 So we're surrounded

01:03:45.760 by tyrants all over,

01:03:47.640 all over the place.

01:03:49.300 And,

01:03:49.800 and,

01:03:50.280 and these,

01:03:50.920 these slogans

01:03:51.920 just are,

01:03:53.760 are,

01:03:54.140 are,

01:03:54.720 are silly.

01:03:55.780 I mean,

01:03:56.180 this is just,

01:03:57.060 this is just,

01:03:57.740 it's just,

01:03:58.380 it's cartoonish,

01:03:59.560 you know,

01:04:00.320 for a libertarian

01:04:01.280 to run around

01:04:01.820 and say,

01:04:02.040 I don't want to leave you alone.

01:04:02.880 Okay,

01:04:03.120 well,

01:04:03.400 what are you going to do

01:04:03.940 about to all the people

01:04:04.740 who don't want to leave us alone?

01:04:06.200 You know,

01:04:06.580 this is,

01:04:07.080 this is the relevant issue.

01:04:08.160 Absolutely.

01:04:09.120 James Genman says,

01:04:11.560 I'm curious about

01:04:12.440 Jeffrey's thoughts

01:04:13.100 on distributism

01:04:14.220 having been influenced,

01:04:16.180 influential in both

01:04:17.460 Austrian

01:04:18.440 and Catholic

01:04:19.940 traditions.

01:04:21.440 Interesting,

01:04:21.920 because I often wonder

01:04:22.940 what distributists

01:04:24.180 themselves believe

01:04:25.300 about distributism,

01:04:26.360 but do you have

01:04:26.800 any thoughts on that?

01:04:28.160 Well,

01:04:28.420 I will,

01:04:28.760 I'll just tell you

01:04:29.320 my own,

01:04:29.720 my own history

01:04:30.320 with distributivism

01:04:31.360 is,

01:04:31.980 or distributism,

01:04:32.960 whatever it's called,

01:04:33.560 but I read

01:04:34.200 Chesterton and Belllock

01:04:35.940 back in the old days

01:04:36.720 through Bell Estate

01:04:37.300 and all of Chesterton's work

01:04:38.400 and all this kind of stuff

01:04:39.240 and it's superficially

01:04:40.420 compelling,

01:04:42.520 but I,

01:04:43.820 I came to reject it

01:04:44.920 because they didn't seem

01:04:45.860 to have come to terms

01:04:46.980 with the implications

01:04:49.120 of the accumulation

01:04:50.580 of capital

01:04:51.980 and how essential

01:04:53.100 it is for building

01:04:54.640 a complex society

01:04:56.820 and advanced economy

01:04:57.900 and all that kind of stuff.

01:04:59.240 I will say

01:05:00.720 that I have not

01:05:02.960 revisited their works

01:05:04.300 since I've gone

01:05:06.060 through a little bit

01:05:07.040 of a shift

01:05:07.520 in my own thinking

01:05:08.340 and I've been meaning to.

01:05:10.220 I mean,

01:05:10.440 they might have

01:05:11.460 some really interesting

01:05:14.420 insights

01:05:15.000 about where we've headed.

01:05:16.800 Again,

01:05:17.220 I read this,

01:05:18.780 I read their works

01:05:19.460 back in a time

01:05:20.020 when I was convinced

01:05:21.120 that corporate capitalism

01:05:22.540 was just the greatest

01:05:24.020 thing that ever happened

01:05:24.660 to humanity.

01:05:26.140 Now,

01:05:26.740 I've got some doubts.

01:05:28.280 I've even got doubts

01:05:29.360 about what we call

01:05:30.320 progress.

01:05:35.160 I was about to say

01:05:35.940 don't quote me on that,

01:05:36.780 but I'm on an interview.

01:05:39.160 Well,

01:05:39.580 then you,

01:05:39.980 you might be slightly closer

01:05:41.160 to the neo-reaction

01:05:42.240 than we thought,

01:05:43.180 but,

01:05:43.380 you know,

01:05:44.840 well,

01:05:45.280 so,

01:05:45.640 so interestingly,

01:05:46.740 I like,

01:05:47.160 you know,

01:05:47.480 distributism's core,

01:05:49.420 you know,

01:05:49.600 there's,

01:05:50.060 there's several things,

01:05:50.800 of course,

01:05:51.040 that it talks about,

01:05:52.000 but the core thing

01:05:52.640 I take away from it

01:05:53.780 that I hope,

01:05:54.460 you know,

01:05:54.900 we can,

01:05:55.420 I don't know

01:05:55.820 if this works out

01:05:56.480 practically in theory,

01:05:58.120 but it matters,

01:05:59.740 is the shift of focus

01:06:02.000 from the economic unit

01:06:03.840 of the individual

01:06:04.840 to that of the family,

01:06:07.000 right?

01:06:07.480 Recognizing,

01:06:08.100 as we just talked about,

01:06:09.120 the importance of the family

01:06:10.360 and recognizing that

01:06:11.800 you cannot,

01:06:12.440 if you break,

01:06:13.600 if you allow capital

01:06:14.600 to break down

01:06:15.780 the family structure,

01:06:16.900 then you'll just

01:06:18.120 break down society.

01:06:19.160 And so you have to find

01:06:20.580 a way to create

01:06:22.260 capital interactions

01:06:24.240 that don't erode

01:06:26.160 the family

01:06:27.080 and that prioritize

01:06:28.040 the well-being

01:06:29.180 of the family.

01:06:30.060 I, of course,

01:06:30.980 I know somewhere,

01:06:31.880 like,

01:06:32.320 economic theory nerds

01:06:34.020 are screaming at me,

01:06:34.840 but, like,

01:06:35.580 that seems critical

01:06:37.100 if you're going to solve

01:06:38.200 the problem moving forward.

01:06:39.780 But, you know,

01:06:40.360 here's the thing,

01:06:41.860 I don't think,

01:06:43.980 capitalist ideology

01:06:45.100 has conceived

01:06:46.520 of the individual

01:06:47.440 as somehow isolated

01:06:48.760 from his community,

01:06:50.280 from his heritage,

01:06:51.440 from the family.

01:06:52.520 That's not the way

01:06:53.700 capitalism and practices

01:06:55.020 ever worked.

01:06:55.920 I remember being in,

01:06:58.080 I don't know

01:06:58.460 when it first occurred

01:06:59.460 to me,

01:06:59.720 it was so stupid

01:07:00.460 that I could be

01:07:01.060 so slow to understand this,

01:07:02.120 but I was,

01:07:02.820 I went on a balloon ride,

01:07:04.760 a hot air balloon ride

01:07:06.360 in Mexico

01:07:07.020 to fly over

01:07:07.680 the old ruins,

01:07:09.720 Tijuana ruins.

01:07:11.440 And we landed,

01:07:12.420 and I said to the guy

01:07:13.640 who spoke,

01:07:14.220 you know,

01:07:14.480 broken English,

01:07:15.120 I said,

01:07:16.020 wow,

01:07:16.580 how did you decide

01:07:17.660 to take up,

01:07:18.760 you have such

01:07:19.640 awesome skills,

01:07:21.160 it's unbelievable

01:07:22.020 how well you work

01:07:22.900 this crazy contraption

01:07:24.220 balloon with it

01:07:24.960 blasting the air

01:07:26.100 and we're flying up

01:07:27.060 in the old place

01:07:27.920 and it looks like,

01:07:29.020 I put my life

01:07:30.760 in your hands,

01:07:32.000 you're just the master

01:07:33.020 of this thing.

01:07:33.800 I said,

01:07:34.360 how did you,

01:07:35.380 such a stupid idiot

01:07:36.560 American question,

01:07:37.640 but I said,

01:07:38.020 how did you decide

01:07:39.360 to take up ballooning

01:07:40.500 as a profession?

01:07:42.940 And he said,

01:07:44.260 my father taught me.

01:07:45.980 Yeah,

01:07:46.180 my dad,

01:07:46.580 yeah.

01:07:47.060 And I said,

01:07:47.540 well,

01:07:47.800 who taught him?

01:07:48.640 He said,

01:07:48.940 his father.

01:07:49.780 I said,

01:07:49.980 well,

01:07:50.060 who taught him?

01:07:50.620 He said,

01:07:51.000 his father.

01:07:51.740 I said,

01:07:52.020 so this is like

01:07:52.440 a family business?

01:07:53.900 Yes,

01:07:54.420 my family,

01:07:55.520 we're a family of ballooners.

01:07:56.880 This is what we do.

01:07:58.380 And once you notice that,

01:08:00.460 you suddenly,

01:08:01.000 it's like,

01:08:01.260 well,

01:08:01.480 wait a minute,

01:08:02.380 how common is this?

01:08:03.980 So I was at my cobbler

01:08:04.940 the other day,

01:08:05.540 the guy repairs the shoes

01:08:06.500 and he's using equipment

01:08:07.700 from 1910

01:08:08.740 and doing a brilliant job

01:08:10.080 and he invited me back

01:08:10.920 to the shop

01:08:11.320 and showed me

01:08:11.700 how he cuts the leather

01:08:12.420 and he's a shoemaker,

01:08:13.680 just like in Grimm's fairy tales

01:08:15.180 when he was a shoemaker.

01:08:16.920 I said,

01:08:17.200 where'd you learn this?

01:08:17.960 He said,

01:08:18.100 my father.

01:08:18.540 Where'd he learn his father?

01:08:21.640 I said,

01:08:22.000 well,

01:08:22.100 who's going to succeed you?

01:08:24.320 Yeah,

01:08:24.760 I think we're just going to shut down

01:08:25.920 after I die.

01:08:26.740 That's the end.

01:08:28.560 So,

01:08:28.960 yeah,

01:08:29.340 I mean,

01:08:29.660 professions do,

01:08:31.120 they follow in the family.

01:08:33.060 That's where you learn your skills.

01:08:34.800 That's where you learn

01:08:35.740 to be a master craftsman,

01:08:37.700 you know,

01:08:38.200 and you don't break that up.

01:08:39.880 Under a natural,

01:08:41.040 organic,

01:08:41.980 developing,

01:08:42.880 free economy,

01:08:43.920 I think this would be the norm

01:08:45.740 that the sons would follow

01:08:47.500 in their father's footsteps

01:08:48.640 and the dollars would aspire

01:08:51.120 to marry people like their fathers,

01:08:53.780 you know?

01:08:54.180 I mean,

01:08:54.400 that's sort of the way things,

01:08:55.700 family becomes really

01:08:57.280 an important economic unit

01:08:58.860 in ways that individualist ideology

01:09:01.860 has emerged in the course

01:09:03.020 of the 20th century

01:09:03.980 where every new person

01:09:05.660 is just this new,

01:09:07.000 random,

01:09:07.700 you know,

01:09:08.500 free-floating flesh blob,

01:09:11.020 you know,

01:09:11.280 full of choice

01:09:11.980 and infinite possibility.

01:09:14.120 You know,

01:09:14.420 that's the 20th century idea,

01:09:16.080 but it's not the way,

01:09:17.080 it's not the way

01:09:17.700 enterprises

01:09:18.340 and commercial societies

01:09:19.960 unfolded through the centuries.

01:09:21.260 It just isn't.

01:09:22.400 Well,

01:09:22.480 it's also what lowers

01:09:23.200 time preference,

01:09:24.120 right?

01:09:24.340 Like,

01:09:24.600 you can't have low time preference

01:09:26.140 if you don't have

01:09:26.640 a continuity

01:09:27.300 of tradition,

01:09:30.140 of culture,

01:09:30.660 of history,

01:09:31.260 of belief.

01:09:32.020 If there's no reason

01:09:33.620 to plan for tomorrow

01:09:34.560 because you are all there is,

01:09:36.080 you're an atomized individual

01:09:37.700 completely connected

01:09:38.600 from a tradition,

01:09:39.460 from a heritage,

01:09:40.200 from anything,

01:09:41.280 then why?

01:09:42.620 Then why build?

01:09:43.600 Why,

01:09:43.860 you know,

01:09:44.140 why delay gratification?

01:09:45.920 Why,

01:09:46.220 you know,

01:09:46.480 and that's all society is,

01:09:48.480 is an accumulation

01:09:49.620 of delayed,

01:09:51.420 you know,

01:09:51.620 the results of,

01:09:52.380 you know,

01:09:53.340 delayed gratification,

01:09:54.460 low time preference.

01:09:55.500 Well,

01:09:55.580 and the other problem

01:09:57.060 is that if you conceive

01:09:58.180 of every generation

01:09:59.200 as a brand new

01:10:00.420 sort of,

01:10:00.900 you know,

01:10:01.320 creation,

01:10:02.540 you know,

01:10:02.740 with no history

01:10:03.800 and no real future,

01:10:06.560 you might end up

01:10:07.420 with a population

01:10:08.080 with no skills

01:10:08.840 at a whole.

01:10:09.600 Which is,

01:10:10.940 we're hurtling towards,

01:10:12.120 actually.

01:10:12.660 Right?

01:10:13.380 That's exactly

01:10:14.360 where we're headed.

01:10:15.460 We don't have shoemakers,

01:10:16.680 we don't have anything makers

01:10:17.920 anymore,

01:10:18.500 you know,

01:10:18.840 with our industries

01:10:19.940 gone now

01:10:21.200 and people spending

01:10:23.400 16 years in school

01:10:26.200 and then graduated

01:10:27.260 with a friggin'

01:10:27.960 piece of paper

01:10:28.720 and then going to

01:10:29.940 indeed.com

01:10:30.960 and uploading it,

01:10:32.020 hoping for a job.

01:10:33.600 That's,

01:10:34.300 but zero skills

01:10:35.980 at all.

01:10:36.580 The inability

01:10:37.440 to do anything,

01:10:39.820 the only skill

01:10:41.380 you have

01:10:41.680 is watching

01:10:42.100 TikTok videos,

01:10:43.880 you know,

01:10:44.200 and we think

01:10:44.740 we're going to

01:10:45.140 sustain

01:10:45.700 a prosperous society

01:10:47.160 like that?

01:10:48.400 No,

01:10:48.980 this is a calamity.

01:10:51.020 I mean,

01:10:51.200 this is a candle

01:10:52.420 burning at both ends.

01:10:53.460 I mean,

01:10:53.660 this is the end

01:10:54.460 of the world.

01:10:57.080 Well,

01:10:57.660 I'm glad

01:10:58.120 that we arrived

01:10:59.300 at a hopeful

01:11:00.380 no

01:11:01.060 now that we have

01:11:06.960 white-pilled everybody

01:11:08.080 and instilled them

01:11:08.940 with the,

01:11:09.620 you know,

01:11:09.780 but to circle back

01:11:11.240 to put a little cap

01:11:12.340 out of the end,

01:11:13.240 you know,

01:11:13.460 the projects

01:11:15.800 like the Free State Project

01:11:17.920 and those

01:11:18.640 and Ridge Runner,

01:11:20.840 you know,

01:11:21.740 conservative communities,

01:11:23.600 libertarian communities

01:11:24.260 that are focusing

01:11:25.440 people together,

01:11:26.340 sharing that,

01:11:27.480 rebuilding that continuity,

01:11:29.220 that understanding

01:11:30.520 of actually

01:11:31.200 you do need

01:11:32.040 a shared idea,

01:11:33.240 you do need

01:11:33.560 a shared community,

01:11:34.900 you know,

01:11:35.060 you can have these values,

01:11:36.480 they can be oriented

01:11:37.260 around,

01:11:37.940 you know,

01:11:38.400 this idea of perhaps

01:11:39.320 libertarianism,

01:11:40.220 but you need to have,

01:11:41.460 you know,

01:11:42.000 that community first

01:11:43.300 is what actually

01:11:44.100 creates that incentive

01:11:45.660 that I think

01:11:46.300 is something

01:11:47.380 that hopefully will,

01:11:48.580 you know,

01:11:48.700 even if some of this

01:11:49.880 burns out

01:11:50.440 and as I've predicted

01:11:51.480 in my book,

01:11:52.000 I believe a large amount

01:11:52.960 of it will,

01:11:54.260 the communities

01:11:54.900 that are forging

01:11:56.060 those bonds now

01:11:57.140 are the ones

01:11:57.840 that will,

01:11:58.460 I think,

01:11:58.900 probably have

01:11:59.540 a better time

01:12:00.040 weathering that storm

01:12:01.760 when it inevitably comes.

01:12:03.480 If civilization

01:12:04.480 can be saved,

01:12:05.300 it's only going

01:12:05.780 to be through this,

01:12:07.440 you know,

01:12:07.720 it's not going to be

01:12:08.320 through abstract ideology,

01:12:10.020 it's going to be

01:12:10.420 through human connection,

01:12:13.320 community relationships,

01:12:16.480 robust families,

01:12:19.040 and I have to say

01:12:20.900 through faith.

01:12:21.840 I mean,

01:12:22.060 I say that

01:12:23.080 as an empirical matter,

01:12:25.580 we know now

01:12:26.880 for sure

01:12:27.660 of the experience

01:12:28.700 of the last

01:12:29.080 four and a half years

01:12:29.720 that it's communities

01:12:30.380 of faith

01:12:30.820 that are willing

01:12:31.260 to resist the state.

01:12:33.140 And everybody else

01:12:34.180 is willing to sell out,

01:12:35.980 you know?

01:12:36.360 I mean,

01:12:36.580 that's just the way it is.

01:12:37.960 It's only communities

01:12:38.980 of faith that say

01:12:39.840 there's something

01:12:40.460 more important

01:12:41.560 than compliance.

01:12:43.440 It's integrity.

01:12:45.360 It's your morality.

01:12:46.720 If you want

01:12:47.180 to preserve your freedom,

01:12:48.020 you might have

01:12:48.420 to make a sacrifice

01:12:49.140 and you should be willing

01:12:50.400 to make that sacrifice

01:12:51.240 because there's something

01:12:52.180 on the other side

01:12:53.100 that will welcome you

01:12:56.220 and embrace you.

01:12:56.960 This is a hugely

01:12:58.220 important aspect

01:12:59.140 of what it means

01:13:00.640 to be courageous.

01:13:01.880 You have to have that.

01:13:02.960 I mean,

01:13:03.100 secular society

01:13:03.840 is just not courageous

01:13:05.600 in the face of tyranny.

01:13:08.960 Absolutely.

01:13:10.080 One thing

01:13:11.160 that the founders

01:13:11.840 were very clear about

01:13:12.800 is that the type

01:13:13.920 of person,

01:13:14.760 what they believed in,

01:13:16.500 what they were founded on,

01:13:17.480 that that would be critical

01:13:18.560 to the operation

01:13:19.460 of the Constitution

01:13:20.460 of the United States

01:13:22.120 as they envisioned it.

01:13:23.180 So I think

01:13:23.680 that's a great point.

01:13:25.100 All right, guys,

01:13:25.600 we're going to wrap this up,

01:13:26.720 but thank you again,

01:13:27.560 Jeffrey,

01:13:27.880 so much for coming on.

01:13:29.000 It's been a fantastic conversation

01:13:30.640 and of course,

01:13:31.540 you should be reading his article.

01:13:32.720 You should be checking out his work.

01:13:34.320 If it's your first time

01:13:34.940 on this channel,

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01:13:47.760 and if you want to make sure

01:13:49.040 that in case we get censored

01:13:50.340 or kicked off,

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01:13:53.100 over at Blaze TV.

01:13:55.200 If you'd like to pick up

01:13:56.240 my book or Jeffrey's book,

01:13:57.740 I'm sure you can find

01:13:58.800 both of those

01:13:59.360 over on Amazon as well.

01:14:00.720 Thank you everybody

01:14:01.320 for watching

01:14:01.920 and as always,

01:14:02.920 I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - September 23, 2024

What Broke Libertarianism？｜ Guest： Jeffrey Tucker ｜ 9⧸23⧸24

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