The Auron MacIntyre Show - When Politics Meets Metal ｜ Guest： Phil Labonte

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00:00:30.440 Hey, everybody.

00:00:31.120 How's it going?

00:00:31.680 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.140 I've got a great stream with a great guest

00:00:34.700 that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.040 As I'm sure you guys are aware,

00:00:39.020 I'm a pretty big fan of metal music,

00:00:41.260 and I've had a great time speaking with the co-host

00:00:45.500 of Tim Poole's show, TimCast,

00:00:48.120 as well as the lead singer of All That Remains,

00:00:50.860 a fantastic metalcore band.

00:00:52.740 So, I wanted to go ahead and interview him

00:00:54.600 about metal and politics and everything else

00:00:56.720 that he's involved in.

00:00:58.380 Joining me today is Phil Labonte.

00:00:59.740 Thank you so much for coming in, man.

00:01:01.620 Thank you for inviting me.

00:01:02.880 I appreciate it, man.

00:01:04.520 Of course.

00:01:05.500 I wanted to just, I guess,

00:01:07.740 start with your musical journey

00:01:11.000 and then maybe get to, you know,

00:01:12.980 what you're doing now with politics and everything.

00:01:15.220 But for people who don't know,

00:01:17.340 did you start out as a pretty musical kid?

00:01:21.020 I know metal isn't necessarily something

00:01:22.980 a lot of people grow up listening to

00:01:24.860 when they're young.

00:01:25.600 Did you have a house full of other musical influences?

00:01:28.740 How did you get interested?

00:01:30.700 So, I got my first guitar,

00:01:33.320 and that, like, I play guitar as well,

00:01:35.060 and that's what got me into the music world

00:01:37.920 in the first place.

00:01:39.080 I got a guitar when I was 14.

00:01:41.080 My godmother decided that she wanted to get me a guitar,

00:01:43.980 and so this is 1989,

00:01:46.020 like, the apex of hair metal and stuff.

00:01:50.140 And I started going to lessons,

00:01:52.300 and as I started playing more,

00:01:55.280 I started looking for heavier music.

00:01:58.540 So I was into, you know,

00:01:59.880 when I was young,

00:02:01.300 I was into, like, you know,

00:02:02.620 your Guns N' Roses

00:02:03.540 and your hair metal bands,

00:02:05.540 and then I started getting into the thrash bands

00:02:07.860 in the late, like, 89, 90, 91.

00:02:11.120 I was into, like, Metallica and stuff like that.

00:02:13.400 Started getting into death metal,

00:02:15.240 like Carcass, Entombed,

00:02:18.240 the more melodic stuff,

00:02:19.940 but then that turned into, you know,

00:02:22.280 like, the more brutal death metal,

00:02:24.580 like Cannibal Corpse,

00:02:26.360 Suffocation, stuff like that.

00:02:28.260 And then I started to listen

00:02:30.140 to a lot of the European bands.

00:02:32.100 Again, these are melodic bands,

00:02:34.980 but, like, Carcass, At The Gates,

00:02:37.100 and bands like Carcass and At The Gates

00:02:38.420 were really, really, really influential

00:02:40.380 in what would become, you know,

00:02:42.640 modern metalcore.

00:02:43.720 Like, really, people I've heard described

00:02:46.040 as just kind of, like, hardcore breakdowns

00:02:47.840 with singing choruses,

00:02:49.360 and the rest of it is just

00:02:50.720 melodic Swedish metal, you know?

00:02:53.580 And so those kind of things were, like,

00:02:55.160 that was kind of, like, my evolution

00:02:56.320 through the music industry,

00:02:58.500 or not music industry,

00:02:59.620 but through, like, the music genres

00:03:01.880 which kind of led me to, you know,

00:03:04.720 start playing in metalcore bands and stuff.

00:03:08.260 So if you started in guitar,

00:03:10.200 how did you end up on vocals?

00:03:11.900 Was it just somebody needed a vocalist?

00:03:13.820 Did you find out that was something

00:03:15.100 you were taking to just more and more

00:03:17.520 as you were involving yourself in the scene?

00:03:19.540 When did you start to think

00:03:20.460 about that transition?

00:03:22.100 So I started doing vocals

00:03:23.300 because I was playing guitar,

00:03:25.160 and I was doing, like, backup growls, right?

00:03:27.260 Like, I figured out that I could do,

00:03:29.340 like, the deep kind of, you know, guttural stuff.

00:03:33.080 And then I kind of was the first person

00:03:35.560 in our local area

00:03:37.440 that kind of learned

00:03:38.260 that if you open your mouth,

00:03:39.500 it turns into a mid.

00:03:41.300 And then if you, if you,

00:03:42.820 then you can, you can build on that.

00:03:45.420 So, like, the actual function

00:03:48.160 of your vocal cords and false cords,

00:03:51.280 doing it, like, with the deep stuff

00:03:53.040 or the mid-range stuff is very,

00:03:54.540 is, it's very similar.

00:03:55.880 It's just about, like,

00:03:56.780 the shape of your mouth.

00:03:59.220 Then you'll, you can transition

00:04:00.880 to different kind of parts

00:04:01.960 of your false cords

00:04:02.980 to kind of get the high stuff

00:04:04.060 that, that, what people know now

00:04:05.800 is, like, vocal fry kind of thing.

00:04:08.160 But because I was kind of

00:04:09.300 the first person, like,

00:04:10.240 around that figured that out,

00:04:12.720 people were like,

00:04:14.020 oh, you got, you got a really cool,

00:04:15.840 you know, death metal voice and stuff.

00:04:17.500 And so, it started out,

00:04:20.060 like I said,

00:04:20.500 and I was playing, you know,

00:04:21.420 playing guitar and just doing backups.

00:04:22.920 But once I kind of figured that out,

00:04:25.000 there was this band called,

00:04:27.000 which people might know about

00:04:28.040 if they're into metal,

00:04:29.060 called Shadows Fall

00:04:29.780 that were just getting started.

00:04:31.640 They had a singer,

00:04:32.800 but he was, he was looking to quit.

00:04:35.620 They knew that it wasn't

00:04:36.800 going to be a long-term thing.

00:04:37.880 So the guitar player, Matt,

00:04:38.980 who I'd been friends with

00:04:39.760 for a long time,

00:04:40.480 he hit me up and he's like,

00:04:41.160 hey, why don't you try

00:04:41.940 just singing for the band?

00:04:43.320 And so there was a bit of a transition,

00:04:45.200 but by that point,

00:04:46.360 and I'd played a bunch of shows

00:04:47.760 in my other band called Perpetual Doom,

00:04:50.500 great name.

00:04:51.900 And I kind of understood

00:04:54.640 that you have to perform too.

00:04:57.200 And that's something

00:04:57.740 that a lot of young people

00:04:58.940 don't really realize at first.

00:05:00.720 You see, you get,

00:05:01.260 you get a lot of bands

00:05:02.180 when you're dealing with bands

00:05:04.160 that are just kind of

00:05:05.240 dipping their toes in

00:05:06.520 and first start playing,

00:05:07.820 like they don't realize

00:05:08.620 that it's a performance

00:05:09.500 that you have to get up there

00:05:10.520 and entertain people

00:05:12.120 as well as play the stuff.

00:05:13.360 There's a lot of bands

00:05:14.000 where you, young people

00:05:15.220 where they're so self-conscious

00:05:16.760 where they just kind of

00:05:17.660 stand there.

00:05:19.040 And so the fact

00:05:20.320 that I would jump around

00:05:22.220 and kind of really,

00:05:23.540 you know,

00:05:24.360 allow myself

00:05:25.320 to put on a show

00:05:28.260 for people

00:05:28.700 and really kind of

00:05:29.260 get into the music

00:05:29.900 and stuff,

00:05:30.940 I think that was

00:05:31.560 one of the reasons

00:05:32.560 why the guys

00:05:33.480 in Shadows Fall

00:05:33.920 were like,

00:05:34.280 yeah, let's get this guy.

00:05:35.400 And so that lasted

00:05:35.960 for a couple of years.

00:05:37.180 Then I was like,

00:05:37.880 oh, you know,

00:05:38.180 I want to play guitar again

00:05:39.020 in advance.

00:05:39.460 So I started writing music,

00:05:40.320 which eventually

00:05:40.840 turned into All That Remains.

00:05:42.120 Yeah, Shadows Fall

00:05:44.220 is listed

00:05:45.800 by a lot of people

00:05:46.800 as a very influential band

00:05:48.580 across several metal genres.

00:05:51.100 So even just being there

00:05:51.940 at the beginning

00:05:53.200 of that band's journey

00:05:54.920 puts you at a pretty pivotal

00:05:56.620 time for a lot of people.

00:05:58.560 And then, of course,

00:05:59.140 All That Remains

00:05:59.920 is also known,

00:06:01.320 I think,

00:06:01.660 as just kind of

00:06:02.460 one of the mainstay

00:06:04.500 metalcore bands,

00:06:06.980 like one of the largest bands

00:06:09.020 in that genre,

00:06:09.960 along with something

00:06:10.500 like maybe Killswitch

00:06:11.460 or one of those.

00:06:13.020 And so I wonder

00:06:14.040 about that transition

00:06:15.040 moving from

00:06:15.640 what would be

00:06:16.760 one of the more

00:06:18.100 influential bands

00:06:19.460 in the scene

00:06:20.360 to then another

00:06:21.440 very influential band

00:06:23.160 in a somewhat

00:06:25.380 different genre

00:06:26.000 related,

00:06:26.640 but ultimately

00:06:27.160 very closely related.

00:06:29.300 What is it like to,

00:06:30.840 did you have perspective

00:06:31.940 at that time

00:06:32.500 when you're moving on

00:06:33.220 from Shadow Falls?

00:06:34.120 Like what kind of impact

00:06:35.240 that was having?

00:06:36.560 And was there any consciousness

00:06:38.220 when you started

00:06:38.920 a new band

00:06:39.660 of kind of

00:06:40.740 being on that same level?

00:06:42.260 Were you just doing

00:06:42.820 your own thing

00:06:43.460 completely unaware

00:06:44.720 of kind of how

00:06:45.560 that was impacting

00:06:46.720 a wider metal audience?

00:06:48.740 Yeah, when I was

00:06:49.440 when I was in Shadow's Fall

00:06:50.780 and then when I like

00:06:51.980 go leading up

00:06:53.060 to All That Remains,

00:06:53.840 it was before

00:06:54.640 metalcore, you know,

00:06:55.680 broke out into the

00:06:56.720 kind of mainstream

00:06:57.940 metal world, right?

00:06:58.840 Like I heard Shadow's Fall

00:07:01.120 and I was like,

00:07:01.740 that's something cool.

00:07:03.020 That's fresh to me.

00:07:04.220 That sounds different.

00:07:05.360 That's that's something

00:07:06.420 I want to do.

00:07:07.020 And that's why like

00:07:07.860 when I talked to Matt

00:07:09.040 and he was like,

00:07:09.540 hey, you know,

00:07:10.000 why don't you come sing?

00:07:10.660 I was like, absolutely.

00:07:11.620 This is super sick.

00:07:12.680 This is very different

00:07:13.840 from what was going on.

00:07:15.040 And you have to think of

00:07:15.880 at the time,

00:07:17.080 like new metal

00:07:18.960 had just come out

00:07:20.180 a couple of years before.

00:07:21.240 And like this is

00:07:22.280 in the heyday of

00:07:23.120 like when people

00:07:24.320 are just learning

00:07:25.080 who Korn is,

00:07:26.500 right?

00:07:26.700 Just learning.

00:07:27.760 I'm not even sure

00:07:28.580 if Limp Bizkit

00:07:29.420 had come out yet.

00:07:31.400 But you know how,

00:07:32.820 you know,

00:07:33.480 new metal really jumped

00:07:34.300 the shark,

00:07:35.180 which, you know,

00:07:35.900 a lot of a lot

00:07:36.840 of genres do,

00:07:37.840 you know,

00:07:38.060 but by the time

00:07:39.260 the aughts came around,

00:07:40.060 new metal had turned

00:07:41.320 into kind of kind

00:07:42.100 of a punchline

00:07:42.640 except for a handful

00:07:43.480 of of bands.

00:07:45.840 And so like what I heard

00:07:48.560 in like metalcore

00:07:49.700 or the early metalcore,

00:07:51.280 I was like,

00:07:51.620 that's going to be

00:07:52.180 a big deal.

00:07:52.840 That's going to be

00:07:53.400 something really cool

00:07:54.180 for metal.

00:07:55.560 And so when we were

00:07:57.260 doing it,

00:07:57.680 we weren't thinking

00:07:58.540 about like,

00:07:59.280 hey, we're going to

00:07:59.960 change kind of

00:08:01.500 how people make music

00:08:04.220 or make metal

00:08:04.980 in, I mean,

00:08:06.960 honestly,

00:08:07.460 in Europe

00:08:07.820 and in the U.S.

00:08:09.380 If you look back now

00:08:10.320 and you listen to bands,

00:08:11.400 there's so many bands

00:08:12.080 that like even the bands

00:08:13.780 that are big now

00:08:15.180 that may not have listened

00:08:16.480 to All That Remains

00:08:17.240 or Shadows Fall,

00:08:18.340 like they're still

00:08:19.820 incorporating things

00:08:21.420 that Shadows Fall

00:08:22.280 and All That Remains

00:08:23.140 had kind of pioneered,

00:08:24.400 you know,

00:08:24.660 like we were one

00:08:27.020 of a handful of bands

00:08:27.940 that started that kind

00:08:29.140 of like, you know,

00:08:29.960 singing choruses

00:08:31.200 with screams

00:08:31.980 and the verses

00:08:32.520 or that kind of

00:08:33.120 good guy, bad guy thing.

00:08:34.620 But it wasn't something

00:08:35.600 that we thought of

00:08:38.820 as like changing

00:08:39.980 the music world

00:08:40.680 because we were all

00:08:42.220 from such a heavy genre.

00:08:45.500 We had so much influence

00:08:48.420 from heavy music.

00:08:49.280 We kind of were like,

00:08:50.000 yeah, this stuff

00:08:50.660 doesn't get played

00:08:51.440 on the radio.

00:08:52.600 This stuff doesn't,

00:08:53.640 you know,

00:08:53.820 we're not going

00:08:54.600 to be big bands.

00:08:57.260 The concept of like

00:08:58.580 doing that band

00:09:00.020 for a living

00:09:01.040 that kind of really

00:09:02.020 wasn't in at least

00:09:03.460 my head.

00:09:04.020 I was like,

00:09:04.420 you know,

00:09:04.540 if I can do play shows

00:09:06.180 on the weekend

00:09:06.620 and go on tour

00:09:07.620 and have a job

00:09:08.200 that lets me go on tour

00:09:09.180 and then, you know,

00:09:10.520 do my normal job,

00:09:11.440 that was like making it.

00:09:13.200 Like the idea

00:09:13.820 of having songs

00:09:15.140 that chart,

00:09:15.880 you know,

00:09:16.500 top 10 or number one

00:09:17.740 on rock radio

00:09:18.520 or having golden

00:09:20.260 platinum records,

00:09:20.920 that wasn't something

00:09:21.620 that I thought

00:09:22.520 was in the cards

00:09:23.340 for bands like us.

00:09:24.580 It is a strange transition

00:09:28.420 because, you know,

00:09:29.720 you pointed out

00:09:30.440 nu metal

00:09:30.940 and the way

00:09:31.740 that it kind of

00:09:32.580 blew up so big

00:09:34.000 but then just

00:09:34.580 went out almost immediately

00:09:36.020 and it's strange

00:09:37.520 because, you know,

00:09:38.940 of course,

00:09:39.400 metal fans will

00:09:40.540 sneer at hair metal

00:09:42.340 or nu metal

00:09:43.540 and look,

00:09:44.280 I love both.

00:09:44.900 I'm shameless.

00:09:45.640 I'm a shameless

00:09:46.140 hair metal fan.

00:09:47.800 Absolutely.

00:09:48.660 Like people really

00:09:49.760 are like,

00:09:50.380 oh, well,

00:09:50.600 that guy got a perm

00:09:51.460 so I didn't notice

00:09:52.680 that his solo

00:09:53.420 was absolutely insane.

00:09:55.080 Like, look, man,

00:09:55.520 if he melts frets,

00:09:56.620 he melts frets.

00:09:57.380 I don't care.

00:09:58.600 But a lot of people

00:10:00.680 will say,

00:10:01.320 oh, well,

00:10:01.540 that's not real metal.

00:10:02.680 That's not heavy enough.

00:10:03.720 That's not whatever.

00:10:05.080 And it's interesting.

00:10:06.420 Those are probably

00:10:07.000 the last two

00:10:08.280 big explosions

00:10:09.760 of metal

00:10:10.920 in pop culture.

00:10:11.940 Like today,

00:10:12.600 if you talk

00:10:13.680 to most people,

00:10:14.860 hey,

00:10:15.360 when you're listening

00:10:16.040 to metal,

00:10:16.360 what are you listening to?

00:10:17.520 They're listening

00:10:18.040 to nu metal

00:10:18.680 or hair metal

00:10:19.440 most of the time.

00:10:20.760 the harder stuff

00:10:22.620 really is

00:10:23.240 for a niche audience.

00:10:25.080 But a lot of people

00:10:25.920 are also simultaneously

00:10:27.020 lamenting

00:10:28.060 the lack of metal

00:10:29.980 or rock

00:10:30.620 in kind of

00:10:31.520 the modern culture,

00:10:32.960 the mainstream music.

00:10:35.080 Do you think

00:10:35.540 there's a tension there

00:10:36.780 between the desire

00:10:38.140 to have exposure

00:10:39.140 at some level

00:10:40.100 for metal

00:10:41.120 to a broader audience?

00:10:42.360 But once you achieve it,

00:10:43.720 it seems to kind of

00:10:44.520 blow up,

00:10:45.260 become a flash of plan

00:10:46.120 and then just kind of

00:10:46.740 leave immediately.

00:10:47.780 What do you think

00:10:48.200 that dynamic is?

00:10:49.140 So you mentioned

00:10:51.100 like how there are

00:10:52.360 metal bands

00:10:53.120 that are like

00:10:53.520 that talk about

00:10:54.220 it's not real metal,

00:10:55.900 right?

00:10:56.200 Like,

00:10:56.460 you know,

00:10:57.180 the elitism,

00:10:59.300 the exclusionary aspect,

00:11:01.020 that used to be a thing

00:11:02.520 that was a bigger deal,

00:11:04.180 I think.

00:11:04.720 There's always going

00:11:05.540 to be people

00:11:06.200 that are like,

00:11:06.760 oh,

00:11:06.940 you know,

00:11:07.540 this isn't real,

00:11:08.820 whatever.

00:11:09.200 This is,

00:11:09.680 you know,

00:11:09.800 that are going

00:11:10.380 to be elitist

00:11:11.160 and they're going

00:11:11.520 to be trying

00:11:12.000 to be gatekeepers

00:11:12.720 and stuff like that.

00:11:13.480 And I think

00:11:14.740 that's going

00:11:15.020 to be a normal thing,

00:11:16.100 but really

00:11:16.800 it's not nowadays

00:11:18.240 something that's functional,

00:11:20.800 right?

00:11:21.080 Like it used to be

00:11:22.140 where if you wanted

00:11:23.200 to listen to heavy music,

00:11:24.340 you had to go

00:11:24.860 to a certain store

00:11:26.480 to buy the records.

00:11:27.700 You couldn't just,

00:11:29.000 you know,

00:11:29.540 Google up a type of music

00:11:31.880 and get a bunch

00:11:32.600 of things offered to you.

00:11:34.280 You didn't have

00:11:34.860 Spotify playlists.

00:11:36.320 If you wanted

00:11:36.820 to listen to heavy music,

00:11:37.820 you had to go

00:11:38.820 to a specific place

00:11:40.140 that will sell that stuff

00:11:41.300 because they weren't

00:11:41.920 selling it at your

00:11:43.020 Tower Records.

00:11:44.360 You know,

00:11:44.480 in the 90s,

00:11:44.960 you couldn't find

00:11:45.760 European death metal bands

00:11:46.980 in most music stores,

00:11:50.100 right?

00:11:50.220 You had to go

00:11:50.540 to a specialty shop

00:11:52.160 and you didn't know

00:11:53.220 what the band

00:11:53.760 would sound like

00:11:54.640 unless you bought

00:11:55.560 the record,

00:11:56.420 brought it home

00:11:56.940 and like you were

00:11:57.680 hoping that you liked it.

00:11:59.340 So that's really destroyed

00:12:00.920 like the concept

00:12:01.760 of an underground.

00:12:03.040 And if you don't

00:12:04.240 have an underground,

00:12:04.900 it's really hard

00:12:06.160 to exclude people

00:12:07.140 because anyone

00:12:08.540 can Google up a band

00:12:09.820 and say,

00:12:10.740 well,

00:12:11.260 I or Google

00:12:11.880 Google up a style

00:12:13.060 of music and listen

00:12:14.220 to it and then say,

00:12:15.340 well,

00:12:15.420 I like this.

00:12:16.180 And sure,

00:12:16.440 there are going

00:12:16.680 to be people

00:12:17.020 that are like,

00:12:17.460 well,

00:12:17.540 that's not real

00:12:18.160 and they're going

00:12:18.480 to try to gatekeep,

00:12:20.220 but you can't stop

00:12:20.980 people from listening

00:12:21.700 to music.

00:12:22.480 You know,

00:12:22.640 it's like it used

00:12:23.600 to be where the gatekeepers

00:12:24.720 actually had some power,

00:12:26.480 right?

00:12:26.880 Like if you weren't

00:12:28.240 welcome at the shows

00:12:29.240 and people were like,

00:12:30.160 you know,

00:12:30.340 get out of here

00:12:30.900 or whatever,

00:12:31.420 you were,

00:12:31.900 you could physically

00:12:32.920 be excluded

00:12:33.780 and you could maybe

00:12:35.960 go by the records,

00:12:36.880 but it wasn't presented

00:12:37.760 to you in the way

00:12:38.400 that it is nowadays.

00:12:39.520 With the internet.

00:12:41.560 So I do think

00:12:43.280 that the,

00:12:43.820 the idea of,

00:12:46.380 of gatekeeping

00:12:47.520 and music,

00:12:48.140 I think that that,

00:12:49.320 that's not really

00:12:50.220 a thing so much anymore.

00:12:52.040 And as for the popularity

00:12:54.160 of heavy music,

00:12:55.180 I do think that there's music

00:12:56.900 that,

00:12:57.480 or there's elements

00:12:58.480 of the heavier stuff

00:12:59.400 that has kind of made

00:13:00.360 its way into more,

00:13:01.740 more popular music.

00:13:03.240 Like,

00:13:03.560 I mean,

00:13:04.040 a lot of people

00:13:04.620 have heard of Poppy,

00:13:05.780 right?

00:13:06.340 She's,

00:13:06.940 she's a,

00:13:07.920 this,

00:13:08.600 this dainty little girl

00:13:09.740 that,

00:13:10.140 that is a singer,

00:13:11.460 but she also has like

00:13:12.660 a lot of screaming stuff

00:13:13.640 and,

00:13:13.960 and has,

00:13:15.120 has a lot of heavy influence.

00:13:16.460 You listen to a band

00:13:17.520 like Sleep Token,

00:13:19.020 there's a lot of screaming

00:13:20.500 in,

00:13:21.180 in some of their stuff

00:13:22.320 and,

00:13:22.660 and yet there's such

00:13:24.060 really rich musical layers

00:13:27.180 and,

00:13:27.620 and really well thought out

00:13:29.460 orchestrations

00:13:31.340 and,

00:13:31.760 and arrangements and stuff.

00:13:33.280 I wouldn't,

00:13:34.520 I wouldn't say that Sleep Token

00:13:35.580 is a heavy band

00:13:36.560 or a heavy,

00:13:37.180 like a really heavy,

00:13:39.040 heavy metal band,

00:13:40.080 but they use those elements.

00:13:41.660 I mean,

00:13:42.160 even,

00:13:42.660 even,

00:13:43.100 they had a metal band

00:13:44.440 play at the Grammys

00:13:45.500 just recently,

00:13:46.260 a band called,

00:13:46.860 oh,

00:13:48.480 what's her name?

00:13:50.420 It slips my mind right now.

00:13:52.200 But,

00:13:52.820 Spirit Box,

00:13:53.300 wasn't it?

00:13:53.840 Spirit Box,

00:13:54.440 yes,

00:13:54.680 the female singer.

00:13:55.720 And to be honest with you,

00:13:56.540 I mean,

00:13:56.720 we're going to,

00:13:57.200 I'll dip my toes

00:13:57.900 into the politics

00:13:58.540 or the culture stuff here.

00:13:59.420 The reason Spirit Box

00:14:00.460 got to play

00:14:01.060 is because they have

00:14:02.080 a female singer.

00:14:03.180 You know,

00:14:03.420 it's like,

00:14:04.540 the reason Spirit Box

00:14:05.440 gets the attention they do,

00:14:06.440 not that they're not a good band.

00:14:07.580 I'm not trying to say

00:14:08.400 that their,

00:14:08.860 their music is,

00:14:09.560 is,

00:14:10.420 you know,

00:14:10.840 low quality,

00:14:11.540 whether or not

00:14:12.000 you like that.

00:14:13.300 But the reason

00:14:13.980 they get the attention they do

00:14:15.220 is because they have a singer

00:14:16.440 that's a female,

00:14:17.380 right?

00:14:17.600 Like,

00:14:17.800 if you have a singer

00:14:19.100 that's a female

00:14:19.620 and you're making good music,

00:14:21.020 the music industry today

00:14:22.100 is going to be like,

00:14:22.600 ooh,

00:14:22.740 we'd love to pay attention to you.

00:14:24.760 But,

00:14:25.320 I do think that the,

00:14:27.100 the,

00:14:27.700 the whole genre thing

00:14:30.360 used to be

00:14:32.400 where you had

00:14:33.440 more exclusivity

00:14:34.580 and people were

00:14:35.600 a little,

00:14:36.400 a little more arm's length

00:14:37.820 with heavy music.

00:14:38.560 I think that nowadays

00:14:39.480 you can get those elements

00:14:40.920 into more mainstream music,

00:14:42.440 but still,

00:14:43.340 part of the reason

00:14:44.440 why there isn't

00:14:45.360 a,

00:14:45.800 a bigger upswell

00:14:47.400 of,

00:14:47.760 of people listening

00:14:48.740 to heavy music

00:14:49.440 is because it,

00:14:50.580 the screaming stuff

00:14:51.500 has always kind of

00:14:53.640 put people off.

00:14:54.660 Like,

00:14:54.860 your normies

00:14:55.380 just don't really,

00:14:57.300 they hear someone screaming

00:14:58.660 and even though

00:14:59.780 they'll hear

00:15:00.220 little bits of it

00:15:01.240 and,

00:15:01.480 and be able to

00:15:02.160 stomach it

00:15:02.760 or,

00:15:02.960 or say,

00:15:03.920 okay,

00:15:04.040 that's kind of cool

00:15:04.760 in,

00:15:05.260 in songs nowadays.

00:15:08.160 You know,

00:15:08.820 if you've got a guy

00:15:09.600 that sounds like,

00:15:10.720 you know,

00:15:11.420 Corpse Grinder,

00:15:12.300 they're going to be like,

00:15:12.860 nah,

00:15:13.680 nah,

00:15:14.040 you know,

00:15:14.540 they're just like,

00:15:15.100 nah,

00:15:15.280 that's,

00:15:15.560 that's not for me.

00:15:16.300 I can't understand

00:15:17.000 a word he's saying

00:15:17.600 and it's the same,

00:15:18.580 same,

00:15:19.280 you know,

00:15:19.780 phrases all the time.

00:15:20.700 I can't understand

00:15:21.320 a word he's saying.

00:15:22.100 What do you,

00:15:22.500 you know,

00:15:23.180 I don't get what,

00:15:24.420 why he,

00:15:24.840 he just sounds like

00:15:25.740 a monster or whatever,

00:15:26.900 you know,

00:15:27.040 it sounds like a bear

00:15:27.680 singing or what have you,

00:15:28.720 you know,

00:15:29.180 so.

00:15:30.460 Well,

00:15:30.580 what do you think

00:15:30.960 about the divergent styles

00:15:32.260 that metal has taken?

00:15:34.020 Obviously,

00:15:34.340 this is not a hard

00:15:35.000 and fast rule,

00:15:35.740 but things like power metal

00:15:37.440 are far more

00:15:38.600 popular in Europe

00:15:40.980 and that's a lot

00:15:42.200 of operatic

00:15:43.080 high-flying singing.

00:15:44.000 I actually tend to prefer

00:15:45.160 power metal

00:15:46.140 in most cases,

00:15:47.240 though I love plenty

00:15:48.140 of the heavy stuff too,

00:15:49.480 but speaking of like,

00:15:50.840 you know,

00:15:51.160 fantastic female singers,

00:15:53.200 you know,

00:15:53.400 Seven Kingdoms

00:15:54.340 is,

00:15:55.300 is one that I think

00:15:56.380 is great,

00:15:57.220 you know,

00:15:58.540 Unleash the Archers,

00:15:59.600 like these are,

00:16:00.280 are power metal bands

00:16:01.780 that tend to have

00:16:02.380 female singers,

00:16:02.860 but there's also

00:16:03.400 plenty of male singers.

00:16:04.760 Why did Europe

00:16:05.560 focus on

00:16:06.820 that more

00:16:07.860 melodic

00:16:09.300 operatic style

00:16:10.560 as where

00:16:11.100 the American scenes

00:16:12.180 and some of the other

00:16:12.980 ones seem to have

00:16:14.100 gone heavier,

00:16:14.800 heavier,

00:16:15.480 darker,

00:16:15.800 and darker?

00:16:16.640 I have no idea.

00:16:18.740 And,

00:16:18.900 you know,

00:16:19.600 it's a question

00:16:20.940 that I've kind of,

00:16:22.420 you know,

00:16:23.420 pondered a bunch

00:16:24.240 as people have,

00:16:25.240 you know,

00:16:25.540 proposed that question

00:16:26.360 a bunch

00:16:26.660 and there's a lot

00:16:27.640 of people like,

00:16:28.140 well,

00:16:28.280 you know,

00:16:28.440 what do you think it is?

00:16:29.360 And I really can't

00:16:30.760 put my finger

00:16:31.340 on the thing.

00:16:32.300 It might be

00:16:33.280 because people in Europe

00:16:34.700 are more likely

00:16:36.660 to be open to metal

00:16:38.380 or at least historically

00:16:39.120 have been more

00:16:40.300 likely to be open

00:16:41.780 to metal.

00:16:42.360 That was kind of

00:16:43.040 the meme

00:16:43.420 when I was growing up,

00:16:44.740 like metal is big

00:16:46.080 in Europe.

00:16:46.620 Metal is always big

00:16:47.540 in Europe.

00:16:47.960 It's bigger in Europe

00:16:48.740 and it's normal

00:16:49.960 to see a metal band

00:16:52.580 on what would be

00:16:54.020 considered a normal

00:16:55.340 music fest,

00:16:56.220 right?

00:16:56.940 And generally,

00:16:57.960 those metal bands

00:16:58.780 have clean singing,

00:17:00.380 right?

00:17:00.520 They don't have screaming.

00:17:02.140 So it might be,

00:17:03.440 it might have something

00:17:04.080 to do with the fact

00:17:05.300 that the genre

00:17:06.800 of music

00:17:07.900 when it comes

00:17:08.860 to just the

00:17:09.580 instrumentals

00:17:10.300 and stuff

00:17:10.700 is more accepted

00:17:13.300 in Europe

00:17:14.120 than it is

00:17:14.880 in the U.S.

00:17:15.740 Like the U.S.

00:17:16.360 really kind of

00:17:17.100 has a very strong

00:17:18.660 tendency to have

00:17:19.720 a, you know,

00:17:20.280 kind of a country folk

00:17:21.400 vibe to a lot

00:17:22.900 of the music

00:17:23.460 and that kind of

00:17:24.600 is the stuff

00:17:25.140 that you'll hear

00:17:25.960 in your,

00:17:28.680 whether it's either

00:17:29.360 pop or country folk

00:17:30.440 and even now

00:17:31.220 you get so much

00:17:32.140 pop and country

00:17:33.400 stuff that's

00:17:34.020 mixed together.

00:17:35.980 Whereas like,

00:17:36.680 you know,

00:17:36.880 in Finland,

00:17:37.520 I know that there's

00:17:38.280 a kids show

00:17:39.380 that's essentially,

00:17:41.140 it's very reminiscent

00:17:42.400 of Barney, right?

00:17:43.240 So it's people

00:17:44.540 in dinosaur costumes,

00:17:45.740 but they play metal.

00:17:47.200 Like the dinosaurs

00:17:47.900 themselves have guitars

00:17:48.940 and they play heavy metal

00:17:50.800 and they have songs

00:17:51.540 and it's one of the

00:17:52.140 biggest shows

00:17:52.660 for kids in Finland,

00:17:53.640 which is,

00:17:54.540 you know,

00:17:55.560 in the U.S.

00:17:56.300 it's kind of like,

00:17:56.860 that sounds weird.

00:17:59.260 But I don't know

00:18:00.780 exactly why it is,

00:18:02.140 but it's definitely,

00:18:03.560 it's definitely got

00:18:04.720 something to do

00:18:05.580 with the fact

00:18:06.480 that the listener

00:18:08.180 or the,

00:18:09.780 you know,

00:18:10.000 the European listeners

00:18:10.820 generally are like,

00:18:12.100 you know,

00:18:12.820 more accepting

00:18:13.620 of that,

00:18:14.840 the metal

00:18:15.960 kind of style

00:18:17.160 musically.

00:18:18.320 And I think that the,

00:18:19.080 the clean singing,

00:18:20.660 like you were mentioning,

00:18:21.260 I think that that

00:18:21.840 doesn't put people

00:18:22.720 off the way

00:18:23.300 that the kind of screams

00:18:24.700 that come from the U.S.

00:18:25.700 really does.

00:18:27.080 Yeah,

00:18:27.520 I was actually going

00:18:28.200 to ask you

00:18:28.740 if a country

00:18:30.500 had some balancing

00:18:31.980 effect on that.

00:18:32.840 So it's interesting

00:18:33.460 that you brought

00:18:34.300 that up on your own.

00:18:35.120 That's,

00:18:35.280 that's kind of

00:18:36.080 what I had rolling

00:18:36.660 around in my head

00:18:37.280 as a possible piece

00:18:38.640 to that puzzle.

00:18:39.740 Yeah,

00:18:40.200 I think,

00:18:40.560 I think so.

00:18:41.900 Now,

00:18:42.360 it is interesting

00:18:42.900 that you,

00:18:43.540 you do see

00:18:44.440 some Southern

00:18:45.820 influence

00:18:46.980 in certain metal bands.

00:18:48.820 In fact,

00:18:49.020 some of my favorite

00:18:49.800 bands like Pantera

00:18:51.460 or bands like

00:18:53.440 Crowbar

00:18:54.400 really have,

00:18:56.000 you know,

00:18:56.260 that,

00:18:56.500 that kind of Southern

00:18:57.300 groove,

00:18:57.900 you know,

00:18:58.640 corrosion of conformity.

00:18:59.540 You can,

00:19:00.400 you can feel it,

00:19:01.020 but we just don't get

00:19:01.720 a ton of it reverberating

00:19:03.460 through metal,

00:19:04.100 which I always thought

00:19:04.580 was interesting

00:19:05.060 because it really does

00:19:06.460 bring a very American

00:19:08.100 sound to it.

00:19:09.120 One that I've always enjoyed,

00:19:10.500 but it feels like

00:19:11.640 over time,

00:19:13.040 the emphasis has either

00:19:14.160 been on just like

00:19:15.080 brutal heaviness

00:19:16.320 or high degrees

00:19:17.600 of,

00:19:18.040 of technique

00:19:19.520 and kind of the,

00:19:20.860 the rhythm

00:19:21.880 of the groove

00:19:22.960 that's,

00:19:23.480 that Southern

00:19:24.140 styles bring to metal

00:19:25.760 has kind of

00:19:26.420 fallen away.

00:19:27.320 Am I just casting

00:19:28.660 about there?

00:19:29.200 Is that a trend

00:19:29.700 that you see as well?

00:19:31.660 Yeah,

00:19:31.800 I think the,

00:19:32.380 I think that when it

00:19:33.200 comes to heavy music

00:19:35.060 in the U S there's

00:19:36.580 so many people

00:19:37.300 that are going

00:19:38.020 for extreme,

00:19:39.920 right?

00:19:40.100 Like they want

00:19:40.740 to be the heaviest.

00:19:42.360 They want to be

00:19:43.220 the most technical

00:19:44.460 so that,

00:19:45.260 that,

00:19:45.640 that brutal

00:19:46.600 technical death metal,

00:19:47.640 like even a band

00:19:48.220 like Cannibal Corpse,

00:19:49.000 nobody thinks of them

00:19:49.760 as a technical

00:19:50.540 death metal band,

00:19:51.760 right?

00:19:51.900 They're not like a cynic.

00:19:53.260 They're not like death.

00:19:54.580 They're not like

00:19:55.560 pestilence.

00:19:56.680 These bands

00:19:57.120 that really focused

00:19:58.200 on,

00:19:58.600 on really complex,

00:20:00.320 very intricate riffs.

00:20:01.960 They,

00:20:02.100 or at least they don't,

00:20:02.880 they don't,

00:20:03.660 people don't think

00:20:04.340 of them as like that.

00:20:05.180 But if you listen

00:20:05.800 to Cannibal Corpse riffs,

00:20:06.800 like they are not slouches

00:20:09.340 when it comes

00:20:09.860 to writing riffs,

00:20:10.660 right?

00:20:10.860 They're not writing

00:20:12.120 stuff that's easy to play.

00:20:13.960 They're not just banging

00:20:14.920 on their E string.

00:20:15.840 Like it is very,

00:20:17.280 very,

00:20:18.260 uh,

00:20:18.860 it's,

00:20:19.220 it's pretty progressive.

00:20:20.520 It's,

00:20:20.880 you have to be very skilled

00:20:22.700 to play this stuff.

00:20:24.120 And,

00:20:24.820 and it's also one of the,

00:20:26.240 they're also one of the

00:20:26.980 heavier bands out there.

00:20:28.660 Um,

00:20:29.160 there's a lot of bands

00:20:30.040 that think that heavy

00:20:30.960 is just tuning down

00:20:32.140 and banging on your E string,

00:20:33.580 you know,

00:20:34.260 or playing low notes.

00:20:35.780 And that's,

00:20:36.340 that's not,

00:20:37.100 I mean,

00:20:37.560 it sounds heavy

00:20:38.620 and it gets a,

00:20:40.200 gets an idea across,

00:20:41.300 but it's not really heavy.

00:20:42.800 I think that you're talking

00:20:43.860 about,

00:20:44.280 you know,

00:20:44.900 the,

00:20:45.160 the Southern style bands,

00:20:46.780 you can get really heavy

00:20:48.560 and they don't have

00:20:49.100 to be complex riffs,

00:20:50.040 but you get really heavy riffs

00:20:52.260 with that kind of,

00:20:54.360 kind of groove

00:20:55.620 or,

00:20:56.020 or with a Southern flavor

00:20:57.600 very easily.

00:20:58.920 I think that,

00:21:00.100 you know,

00:21:00.300 even a band

00:21:00.800 that's not particularly heavy,

00:21:03.320 they'll write riffs

00:21:04.540 that if you threw them

00:21:06.080 on a,

00:21:07.720 you know,

00:21:08.020 put the right kind

00:21:08.840 of distortion

00:21:09.580 or right kind

00:21:10.200 of a guitar tone,

00:21:11.580 um,

00:21:12.140 they'll sound like really heavy,

00:21:13.460 like a band like Clutch,

00:21:14.880 right?

00:21:15.000 They're not a heavy band.

00:21:16.240 Like they're kind of a,

00:21:17.580 this,

00:21:17.920 they're kind of a weird,

00:21:19.400 unique sounding band,

00:21:20.800 but the riffs are riffs

00:21:22.780 and they don't play,

00:21:24.220 like they play through

00:21:24.940 orange amps with,

00:21:26.420 you know,

00:21:26.720 like very fuzzy,

00:21:28.520 uh,

00:21:29.340 distortion.

00:21:29.900 It's not aggressive distortion.

00:21:31.540 It's not the typical

00:21:32.380 scooped out kind of metal sound

00:21:34.080 or,

00:21:34.500 or like the,

00:21:35.560 uh,

00:21:35.840 the,

00:21:36.100 the Eddie Van Halen Brown sound,

00:21:37.560 which is kind of something

00:21:38.220 that most people in,

00:21:39.520 in metal bands

00:21:40.360 are kind of chasing,

00:21:41.040 which is why the 5150 amp

00:21:42.500 by Peavey

00:21:43.540 or now the,

00:21:44.460 the,

00:21:45.200 I think that,

00:21:46.240 um,

00:21:46.940 Fender makes their,

00:21:48.100 their new version.

00:21:48.960 But either way,

00:21:49.420 the Eddie,

00:21:50.340 Eddie Van Halen's Brown sound

00:21:51.620 was the one that kind of

00:21:52.900 every metal band was after,

00:21:54.700 right?

00:21:54.880 Like that,

00:21:55.600 his hot rotted Marshall,

00:21:57.540 then Peavey,

00:21:58.640 that was his personal amp

00:21:59.880 that was back when,

00:22:01.340 when,

00:22:01.980 uh,

00:22:02.580 guitar techs and amp builders

00:22:04.120 used to go in

00:22:06.120 and mod amps

00:22:07.260 and they wouldn't tell anybody

00:22:08.500 how they modded it

00:22:09.600 because guitar players

00:22:10.760 wanted their sound.

00:22:12.400 And so nobody would,

00:22:13.620 like they wouldn't tell anybody

00:22:14.680 and,

00:22:15.060 and,

00:22:15.380 you know,

00:22:16.000 small changes

00:22:16.980 or small things

00:22:17.720 inside the amp

00:22:18.500 will make the,

00:22:19.180 make a big difference

00:22:19.980 the way it sounds.

00:22:20.500 So like,

00:22:21.440 it used to be that

00:22:22.620 Eddie Van Halen's sound

00:22:23.860 was like unattainable

00:22:25.000 until Peavey came out

00:22:26.360 with the 5150

00:22:27.140 and then everybody could have,

00:22:28.660 but if you have

00:22:28.980 that kind of guitar tone

00:22:29.920 and you're playing

00:22:30.800 those kind of

00:22:31.420 simple riffs

00:22:32.760 that are

00:22:34.000 kind of groove focused,

00:22:35.340 they,

00:22:35.560 that they really sound

00:22:37.120 very,

00:22:37.720 very heavy.

00:22:38.220 and so I do think

00:22:40.060 that the,

00:22:40.560 the Southern style

00:22:42.040 is something

00:22:42.580 that adds a flavor

00:22:44.600 and I,

00:22:45.660 you know,

00:22:46.080 even bands like

00:22:47.040 Lamb of God,

00:22:47.900 which I wouldn't consider

00:22:48.640 a technical band,

00:22:49.520 but they definitely

00:22:50.060 have that kind of

00:22:50.740 Southern sound to them,

00:22:52.540 you know,

00:22:52.720 because,

00:22:53.140 uh,

00:22:53.740 Mark,

00:22:54.320 the guitar player

00:22:55.180 is,

00:22:55.380 is extremely

00:22:56.040 into Southern music

00:22:57.060 and,

00:22:57.460 and,

00:22:57.780 and,

00:22:58.620 you know,

00:22:58.820 they're all from

00:22:59.420 Richmond,

00:23:00.240 Virginia

00:23:00.560 and they kind of got

00:23:01.220 that good old boy

00:23:01.960 thing going on.

00:23:02.740 Um,

00:23:04.060 but yeah,

00:23:04.460 like,

00:23:05.020 I don't know why

00:23:06.080 it is that,

00:23:07.500 that,

00:23:07.880 that is,

00:23:08.960 is kind of

00:23:10.000 falling out of

00:23:10.880 favor.

00:23:11.960 Um,

00:23:12.320 I think it might be

00:23:13.080 because there's so

00:23:13.980 many people that are

00:23:14.620 using electronics

00:23:15.440 to make music now,

00:23:16.980 you know,

00:23:17.300 you,

00:23:17.840 you have to,

00:23:19.360 one of the things

00:23:20.080 that,

00:23:20.460 that you do

00:23:21.560 with like

00:23:22.160 Southern style stuff

00:23:23.880 or,

00:23:24.220 or if you're trying

00:23:24.980 to write,

00:23:25.480 um,

00:23:26.300 kind of groove stuff,

00:23:27.340 it's,

00:23:27.560 it's hard to,

00:23:28.360 to write groove stuff

00:23:29.700 when everything's

00:23:30.320 on the grid,

00:23:31.000 everything's very,

00:23:31.860 very,

00:23:32.380 you know,

00:23:33.160 everything's very,

00:23:34.080 uh,

00:23:35.080 everything's perfect

00:23:36.240 to the grid,

00:23:36.840 right?

00:23:36.980 So it's,

00:23:37.340 it's all like,

00:23:38.020 you're,

00:23:38.320 you're not pushing

00:23:39.240 the beat,

00:23:39.720 you're not pulling

00:23:40.200 the beat,

00:23:40.760 there's no,

00:23:41.700 there's very little

00:23:42.400 like life in the,

00:23:44.220 in the drum machine

00:23:45.260 when you're,

00:23:45.740 when you're programming

00:23:46.600 your drums,

00:23:47.120 everything's right on time,

00:23:48.400 you know,

00:23:48.640 that you don't do

00:23:49.300 a whole lot of,

00:23:50.320 of,

00:23:50.700 of pushing or pulling

00:23:51.720 or having a,

00:23:53.060 that kind of flow

00:23:53.980 that you get when,

00:23:54.940 when you've got a real

00:23:55.500 drummer and I think

00:23:56.580 that that might have

00:23:57.460 something to do with

00:23:58.060 the fact that,

00:23:58.740 that there's not a lot

00:23:59.440 of people that are

00:24:00.200 writing the music

00:24:01.560 by jamming as a band,

00:24:03.600 they're writing it on,

00:24:04.500 on computers and,

00:24:05.720 and just plugging it

00:24:06.660 into the grid

00:24:07.280 and,

00:24:07.500 and it's all very

00:24:08.320 mapped out.

00:24:10.220 Yeah,

00:24:10.680 that,

00:24:10.900 that's certainly a place

00:24:11.780 I wanted to go with you.

00:24:13.080 I,

00:24:13.200 at one point,

00:24:13.900 I think I posted on Twitter

00:24:15.160 something like,

00:24:15.720 that the click track

00:24:16.440 has like ruined metal

00:24:17.580 and,

00:24:18.240 and you seem to have

00:24:19.180 disagreed with that.

00:24:20.580 Yes.

00:24:21.260 But you also seem

00:24:22.520 to have just pointed out

00:24:23.640 like some of the,

00:24:25.720 the,

00:24:26.220 the problems that kind

00:24:27.340 of the tyranny

00:24:28.040 of exact time

00:24:29.700 and metrics,

00:24:30.340 you know,

00:24:31.300 have created.

00:24:31.980 I'm somebody who spends

00:24:32.860 a lot of time

00:24:33.620 thinking about how

00:24:35.380 managerialism

00:24:37.040 and technocracy

00:24:38.280 and bureaucracy

00:24:39.340 fundamentally change

00:24:41.100 like human interaction.

00:24:42.200 And so my natural instinct

00:24:44.480 is to port this over

00:24:45.380 to music and think,

00:24:46.440 how does the same

00:24:47.480 thing happen there?

00:24:48.320 And so I might just

00:24:49.300 be getting,

00:24:49.800 you know,

00:24:50.000 my sociology and politics

00:24:51.760 mixed up in my metal.

00:24:52.980 But,

00:24:53.520 but to me,

00:24:54.580 I understand there

00:24:55.600 are great advantages,

00:24:56.560 of course,

00:24:57.420 to the click track

00:24:58.160 and to,

00:24:58.640 you know,

00:24:59.240 pro tools and,

00:25:00.240 and,

00:25:00.420 and just the fact

00:25:01.160 that you can have

00:25:01.980 any amp and any tone

00:25:03.400 and get perfect timing

00:25:04.540 and do all these

00:25:05.260 amazing things like,

00:25:06.340 and there are so many

00:25:07.860 metal songs that were

00:25:09.140 probably just unperformable

00:25:10.380 without that technology

00:25:11.580 at this point.

00:25:13.200 But as you say,

00:25:14.260 when everybody's doing that,

00:25:16.040 when that's the expectation

00:25:17.200 that everyone's involved in,

00:25:18.840 I do feel like there is

00:25:20.260 legitimately something lost.

00:25:23.040 You do lose the ability to,

00:25:25.020 as you say,

00:25:25.800 create certain rhythms,

00:25:27.160 you know,

00:25:27.400 move in certain ways.

00:25:28.840 You know,

00:25:29.100 many of the great metal songs

00:25:30.980 have technical,

00:25:33.120 rhythmic imperfections.

00:25:34.580 They have note imperfections.

00:25:36.240 They have these things.

00:25:37.060 But what the artist does

00:25:38.680 with those

00:25:39.480 kind of defines those songs

00:25:41.500 and so when you lose that

00:25:42.740 because you can now

00:25:43.660 just like do everything perfectly,

00:25:45.460 of course,

00:25:45.820 it's got a thousand advantages.

00:25:47.240 I think it's easy

00:25:47.760 to enumerate those.

00:25:48.900 But I just wonder

00:25:49.380 if you would talk about

00:25:50.140 the tension between

00:25:50.900 like technical perfection

00:25:52.300 and maybe perhaps

00:25:53.280 creativity and soul

00:25:54.920 in the music.

00:25:56.780 So,

00:25:57.440 I'm,

00:25:58.000 I'm kind of of two minds

00:25:59.300 with this

00:25:59.780 and,

00:26:00.440 which obviously

00:26:01.180 kind of showed

00:26:02.660 with the,

00:26:03.180 with just my comments.

00:26:04.120 Like,

00:26:04.580 if you're trying

00:26:06.620 to make a competitive product,

00:26:08.780 right,

00:26:08.960 you're trying

00:26:09.320 to make songs

00:26:10.000 that people

00:26:10.760 are going

00:26:11.040 to listen to

00:26:11.640 in a,

00:26:13.100 an era

00:26:13.700 where everything

00:26:14.680 is perfect

00:26:15.480 and you're not

00:26:17.180 putting out music

00:26:18.100 that sounds perfect,

00:26:20.040 more people

00:26:20.880 are going

00:26:21.160 to say

00:26:21.460 that it sounds

00:26:22.140 bad

00:26:22.840 or messed up

00:26:23.940 than are going

00:26:24.600 to say

00:26:24.920 that sounds

00:26:25.460 alive

00:26:26.180 and cool.

00:26:28.060 You're really

00:26:28.900 compete.

00:26:29.920 If everything

00:26:30.600 is to the click,

00:26:31.700 if everything,

00:26:32.160 or if everything

00:26:32.640 is,

00:26:33.140 and not just

00:26:33.540 to the click,

00:26:34.020 right,

00:26:34.140 so you can play

00:26:35.400 to a click

00:26:36.100 and then you

00:26:36.860 can have your,

00:26:37.640 you know,

00:26:37.820 in Pro Tools,

00:26:38.720 you can have,

00:26:39.140 you can do time changes,

00:26:40.100 you can have feel changes

00:26:41.560 with the click

00:26:42.080 where the click

00:26:42.460 will be going,

00:26:43.460 you know,

00:26:46.000 the change,

00:26:46.380 it'll change

00:26:47.100 and stuff.

00:26:47.820 You can do that stuff

00:26:49.000 in Pro Tools.

00:26:50.100 You can do that

00:26:50.640 with a drum machine

00:26:51.580 or whatever,

00:26:52.400 but it's not the same

00:26:55.300 as pushing

00:26:56.180 or pulling the beat,

00:26:57.360 right?

00:26:57.560 Like,

00:26:57.760 so you,

00:26:58.480 your drummer pushes

00:26:59.300 and makes it

00:27:00.780 a little fast

00:27:01.420 and that kind of

00:27:02.160 adds tension

00:27:03.040 into,

00:27:04.000 into the,

00:27:04.520 there's a feeling

00:27:05.640 of tension

00:27:06.080 in the song

00:27:06.600 or if he pulls back

00:27:07.640 where it's a little slow

00:27:08.660 it kind of gets that

00:27:09.460 like,

00:27:10.300 you know,

00:27:10.500 he's a little behind

00:27:11.540 which kind of

00:27:12.420 makes it a little

00:27:13.160 lazy sounding

00:27:14.080 and that's okay.

00:27:16.120 Those are things

00:27:16.880 that I think

00:27:17.240 a talented drummer

00:27:18.060 can do

00:27:18.560 even with a click

00:27:19.520 but when you put

00:27:20.400 everything on the grid,

00:27:21.980 right?

00:27:22.180 So everything,

00:27:23.640 because if you don't know

00:27:24.460 if you've never seen

00:27:25.080 a Pro Tools

00:27:25.600 layout or whatever,

00:27:27.880 everything is broken up

00:27:29.380 into,

00:27:29.920 you can get all the way

00:27:30.980 down to the milliseconds,

00:27:32.200 right?

00:27:32.540 So you put

00:27:33.840 every hit

00:27:34.800 from the drums

00:27:36.000 on your one

00:27:37.880 or your two

00:27:38.900 or your three

00:27:39.660 or your four

00:27:40.280 or whatever

00:27:40.640 you're breaking it up.

00:27:41.520 If every kick

00:27:42.680 is on,

00:27:44.220 you know,

00:27:44.500 is on

00:27:45.020 and every,

00:27:45.540 every snare hit

00:27:46.460 is on

00:27:47.000 then you kind of

00:27:48.300 lose that life feeling.

00:27:50.140 So I think that

00:27:50.680 it takes,

00:27:52.120 it takes talented musicians

00:27:54.280 to know when

00:27:55.760 it's okay

00:27:56.300 to push

00:27:56.920 and pull

00:27:57.780 and to,

00:27:59.000 you know,

00:27:59.640 not quantize

00:28:01.680 your drums.

00:28:02.180 And this is something

00:28:02.760 actually that takes

00:28:03.720 a talented producer

00:28:04.500 and talented engineer

00:28:05.500 to kind of know.

00:28:06.180 It's like,

00:28:06.460 if you're talking

00:28:08.040 to your producer

00:28:08.600 and you're communicating

00:28:09.580 what you're trying to do,

00:28:10.360 be like,

00:28:10.640 hey,

00:28:10.740 look,

00:28:10.960 I know that this

00:28:11.580 is a little loose

00:28:12.340 sounding or it's not,

00:28:13.300 it's a little loose

00:28:14.000 on the click,

00:28:14.920 but that's the vibe

00:28:15.940 we're getting

00:28:16.360 where the producer

00:28:17.340 might be like,

00:28:17.880 hey,

00:28:18.220 it's okay if you're

00:28:19.300 a little behind the click

00:28:20.500 or if you're a little,

00:28:21.580 you know,

00:28:21.780 a little ahead of the click

00:28:22.700 on this one

00:28:23.180 because we want to have

00:28:23.880 that kind of tension

00:28:24.640 or we want it to kind

00:28:25.360 of lay back in the cut.

00:28:26.640 It's okay if you play it

00:28:27.600 like that.

00:28:27.900 A good drummer

00:28:29.860 can do that stuff.

00:28:32.420 I don't think that,

00:28:33.840 and I think that it's

00:28:34.780 important to have

00:28:36.240 everything laid out

00:28:37.300 so that way

00:28:38.040 you can at least edit it

00:28:39.340 and you can give it

00:28:41.660 to the rest of the people

00:28:42.700 in the band

00:28:43.200 and they can use it.

00:28:45.320 So you have to be,

00:28:46.060 that's why I think

00:28:46.640 that it's good

00:28:47.340 to have a click

00:28:48.200 and be on the grid.

00:28:51.760 But it is true

00:28:53.000 that if you don't

00:28:53.700 have a good drummer

00:28:54.440 and you don't have

00:28:55.300 a good producer

00:28:55.920 and you have people

00:28:56.660 that are just throw

00:28:57.860 things onto the grid

00:28:59.520 and everything gets

00:29:00.200 perfected and it's like,

00:29:01.360 no, don't leave

00:29:02.440 any room for stuff

00:29:04.040 to move around.

00:29:05.660 Don't leave any room

00:29:06.740 for kind of the human

00:29:07.880 being that's actually

00:29:08.760 playing the drums

00:29:09.580 to be a human being,

00:29:10.840 put everything

00:29:11.280 perfectly exactly,

00:29:12.960 then that does kind

00:29:14.460 of suck the life

00:29:15.200 out of it.

00:29:15.980 And so,

00:29:16.860 like I said,

00:29:17.340 as a musician

00:29:18.400 that is making music

00:29:20.400 that is,

00:29:21.320 that I want to be,

00:29:22.720 first of all,

00:29:23.060 I want people to hear it

00:29:24.000 and I want to sound

00:29:24.960 polished because I think

00:29:26.020 metal sounds

00:29:26.640 best when it's polished.

00:29:27.660 I'm not really a,

00:29:28.460 I'm not really into

00:29:30.800 the kind of sludge stuff

00:29:32.060 or the,

00:29:32.580 that,

00:29:32.840 I mean,

00:29:33.280 there's a place for it,

00:29:34.220 but at least for all

00:29:35.120 that remains,

00:29:35.580 I want my band

00:29:36.280 to sound very polished

00:29:37.360 and very,

00:29:37.900 very tight.

00:29:40.940 If you're,

00:29:41.640 if you,

00:29:42.060 if you're doing that,

00:29:43.640 then,

00:29:44.360 you know,

00:29:44.680 you,

00:29:45.040 and you're trying

00:29:45.580 to compete

00:29:46.180 with other bands

00:29:46.920 and stuff,

00:29:47.320 then you have to

00:29:47.940 have it on the grid.

00:29:48.700 You have to have it tight.

00:29:49.720 You have to have it

00:29:50.280 edited properly

00:29:51.320 because the listener

00:29:52.700 is going to hear it

00:29:53.880 and say,

00:29:54.300 that just sounds bad.

00:29:56.440 That sounds worse

00:29:57.440 than this other band.

00:29:58.820 They're not going to think of,

00:29:59.960 oh,

00:30:00.060 were they trying to go

00:30:00.880 for a live sound?

00:30:01.720 Were they trying to go

00:30:02.200 for this or that?

00:30:02.840 They're just going to say,

00:30:03.720 it doesn't sound as good

00:30:05.280 as this other band.

00:30:07.220 That record just sounds bad.

00:30:08.780 So I do understand

00:30:10.620 why people would say

00:30:11.760 that it,

00:30:12.160 you know,

00:30:12.920 kind of takes the life

00:30:13.780 out of it.

00:30:15.040 And it's true.

00:30:16.420 But I think that,

00:30:17.560 you know,

00:30:17.920 in such a competitive market

00:30:19.180 where,

00:30:19.680 you know,

00:30:19.820 you're,

00:30:20.120 you're,

00:30:20.540 you're competing

00:30:21.780 with not just music,

00:30:23.320 you know,

00:30:23.780 other bands,

00:30:24.460 you're competing with Xbox,

00:30:25.580 you're competing with Netflix

00:30:26.560 for people's attention.

00:30:29.040 There's not the same

00:30:29.980 kind of room

00:30:30.620 to just be like,

00:30:32.000 oh,

00:30:32.080 we're going to experiment

00:30:32.880 and try this

00:30:33.640 and try that.

00:30:34.220 You know,

00:30:34.380 it's like,

00:30:34.660 well,

00:30:34.920 if you want people

00:30:35.480 to listen to it,

00:30:36.160 you have to have,

00:30:36.960 you have to have it

00:30:38.020 up to a certain standard

00:30:38.940 in the metal community

00:30:39.780 and metal world.

00:30:40.560 And I think that that's,

00:30:41.680 that's something that we,

00:30:43.520 at least for me,

00:30:44.160 that's something

00:30:44.560 that we try to do.

00:30:46.160 No,

00:30:46.520 that's fair.

00:30:46.960 I mean,

00:30:47.240 you know,

00:30:47.640 I think,

00:30:48.180 I just think of bands,

00:30:49.320 well,

00:30:49.500 like Trouble behind me here

00:30:50.740 that just would never

00:30:51.620 have made it,

00:30:52.980 you know,

00:30:53.300 with that,

00:30:53.720 with those standards,

00:30:54.640 you know,

00:30:54.880 it's so weird.

00:30:55.740 It's so all over the place,

00:30:57.140 rhythmically,

00:30:57.980 vocally,

00:30:59.040 but,

00:30:59.880 but it's amazing

00:31:00.720 if you,

00:31:01.220 if you acquire the taste for it,

00:31:02.540 like it's a,

00:31:03.360 it's phenomenal.

00:31:04.580 But I mean,

00:31:04.860 look at,

00:31:05.140 look at Metallica,

00:31:06.160 right?

00:31:06.440 Like Lars Ulrich isn't even

00:31:07.820 the best drummer in Metallica,

00:31:09.320 nevermind in the world.

00:31:10.160 And like,

00:31:11.080 like they,

00:31:12.240 they became the biggest,

00:31:13.720 biggest band,

00:31:14.860 you know,

00:31:15.000 biggest heavy band

00:31:15.800 with Lars playing drums

00:31:17.420 like he does

00:31:18.140 because there's that,

00:31:19.900 there is,

00:31:20.380 I mean,

00:31:21.000 sometimes some of the

00:31:22.020 time signature stuff they do.

00:31:23.220 I don't,

00:31:23.820 I don't know.

00:31:24.280 I don't think that they knew

00:31:25.400 what they were doing.

00:31:26.260 They were just like,

00:31:26.740 so let's see how we can make it fit.

00:31:28.000 And like,

00:31:28.740 especially the stuff like Blackened

00:31:30.160 or like just the,

00:31:32.420 some of the,

00:31:32.940 did you know that Ride the Lightning

00:31:34.400 isn't even tuned properly?

00:31:36.540 No,

00:31:37.100 it's not.

00:31:38.200 Yeah.

00:31:38.680 The whole record is,

00:31:39.720 is out of tune.

00:31:40.600 Like the whole record is like,

00:31:42.380 it's not like a is not 440.

00:31:44.200 So for your listeners

00:31:45.360 that aren't in your music

00:31:46.040 or whatever,

00:31:46.700 the note a on a guitar,

00:31:48.280 if you're tuned standard

00:31:49.740 is at 440 Hertz.

00:31:51.100 And I think that it's like,

00:31:52.480 I don't remember if it was,

00:31:53.500 if it was,

00:31:53.980 if it's sharp or flat,

00:31:55.020 but the whole gets hard.

00:31:56.500 Everything is like,

00:31:57.500 as if your a was like 430

00:31:59.480 or,

00:31:59.760 or 450 or something.

00:32:01.180 It's,

00:32:01.400 it's out of tune by

00:32:02.180 a significant amount.

00:32:03.320 So if you,

00:32:03.760 if you sit down

00:32:04.520 and you want to play guitar

00:32:05.600 like to Metallica stuff,

00:32:08.100 you can't play it

00:32:09.380 to the Ride the Lightning record

00:32:10.620 unless you tune your guitar

00:32:11.760 to the record

00:32:12.700 because it's going to sound

00:32:13.560 out of tune.

00:32:14.160 It's,

00:32:14.460 it's hilarious.

00:32:15.580 But yeah,

00:32:16.540 like it,

00:32:17.340 that,

00:32:18.520 that kind of stuff happens,

00:32:19.560 you know,

00:32:19.880 where,

00:32:20.120 where bands

00:32:21.440 that are professional

00:32:22.340 will do things

00:32:23.960 and,

00:32:24.200 and get away with it.

00:32:25.500 And apparently Metallica

00:32:27.340 gets away with having

00:32:28.100 Lars Ulrich as the drummer.

00:32:29.120 you're far from the first

00:32:31.660 to point out that,

00:32:32.600 that,

00:32:32.960 that particular,

00:32:33.520 uh,

00:32:34.060 a chick in the armor.

00:32:34.940 But,

00:32:35.100 um,

00:32:36.580 what,

00:32:37.080 what do you think about

00:32:37.640 the evolutions of genres

00:32:39.360 as you've been a part

00:32:40.920 of the metal scene?

00:32:42.460 Obviously,

00:32:43.360 metalcore had an important place

00:32:45.160 in the development,

00:32:45.800 as you say,

00:32:46.220 kind of post,

00:32:46.840 uh,

00:32:47.400 new metal.

00:32:48.480 I think that's,

00:32:49.080 that's where most people's minds

00:32:50.180 go after the new metal era.

00:32:51.960 Uh,

00:32:52.520 but since then,

00:32:53.360 it's been a strange

00:32:54.920 amalgamation of,

00:32:56.160 of movements inside

00:32:57.460 of metal,

00:32:58.560 uh,

00:32:59.100 and none of them

00:32:59.820 have quite captured,

00:33:01.060 even metalcore,

00:33:02.040 I think,

00:33:02.320 had a far more,

00:33:03.180 uh,

00:33:04.120 mainstream appeal

00:33:05.360 than many of the different,

00:33:06.640 uh,

00:33:07.540 uh,

00:33:07.840 genres that have,

00:33:08.640 that have come since.

00:33:09.920 And I wonder,

00:33:10.980 uh,

00:33:11.340 what you think about,

00:33:12.200 uh,

00:33:12.820 you know,

00:33:13.000 we're seeing kind of

00:33:14.120 the elder statesman

00:33:15.940 of metal pass,

00:33:17.880 you know,

00:33:18.000 obviously we just saw

00:33:18.700 Ozzy Osbourne go,

00:33:20.400 uh,

00:33:20.800 you know,

00:33:21.220 Dio,

00:33:22.160 uh,

00:33:22.720 we,

00:33:22.960 we,

00:33:23.280 now we're seeing,

00:33:24.040 uh,

00:33:24.360 guys like,

00:33:25.120 uh,

00:33:25.640 Dave Mustaine and Megadeth

00:33:26.960 say that they're going to,

00:33:27.820 you know,

00:33:27.980 pack it up after this one,

00:33:29.520 uh,

00:33:29.980 you know,

00:33:30.220 you just,

00:33:31.460 uh,

00:33:31.640 are seeing that,

00:33:32.800 uh,

00:33:33.060 kind of first and second wave,

00:33:34.660 uh,

00:33:35.480 you know,

00:33:35.760 kind of go.

00:33:36.860 And,

00:33:37.320 uh,

00:33:37.580 you know,

00:33:37.740 you wonder how long,

00:33:38.440 like Iron Maiden's losing members.

00:33:40.340 Judas Priest is basically just Rob Halford now with guys who,

00:33:43.700 you know,

00:33:43.820 to be fair,

00:33:44.360 the guys in the band have been there for like 15 years at this point.

00:33:47.560 So they are Judas Priest at this point,

00:33:49.020 but,

00:33:49.400 you know,

00:33:49.760 people think of Tipton,

00:33:50.880 they think of Downing,

00:33:51.700 you know,

00:33:51.880 that kind of thing.

00:33:52.460 And,

00:33:52.940 and so,

00:33:53.540 uh,

00:33:54.180 you know,

00:33:54.400 with this kind of passing of the torch,

00:33:55.820 the,

00:33:56.280 the,

00:33:56.520 the,

00:33:56.800 the transition between ages,

00:33:58.640 do you have any thoughts just on kind of the metal community?

00:34:01.500 You know,

00:34:01.680 your,

00:34:02.020 your,

00:34:02.240 your genre still feels like the new kid on the block at some way,

00:34:06.240 but has actually been around for a couple of decades at this point.

00:34:08.820 Is that strange place to be?

00:34:10.500 Yeah.

00:34:10.860 I mean,

00:34:11.120 I'm 50 years old and I'm,

00:34:12.780 I'm one of the new kids in,

00:34:13.940 in the metal world.

00:34:15.060 And that's,

00:34:15.860 it's true.

00:34:17.440 You know,

00:34:17.880 um,

00:34:19.100 I mean,

00:34:19.680 I don't know.

00:34:20.100 I mean,

00:34:20.240 that's kind of the way of things generally,

00:34:21.860 like,

00:34:22.280 you know,

00:34:23.000 the,

00:34:23.300 the old generation passes the torch onto the younger generation and stuff.

00:34:26.820 And,

00:34:27.220 um,

00:34:28.640 look,

00:34:28.920 I mean,

00:34:29.160 Ozzy,

00:34:29.880 it sucks that he passed away and stuff,

00:34:31.760 but I,

00:34:32.460 you know,

00:34:32.740 he was,

00:34:33.900 he was in black Sabbath and when,

00:34:35.920 and arguably started heavy metal,

00:34:38.820 you know,

00:34:38.940 there are people that that'll say other bands did,

00:34:41.040 but you know,

00:34:42.200 and I'm not interested in,

00:34:43.700 yeah,

00:34:43.900 I'm not interested in getting into the fight,

00:34:46.160 but like it really,

00:34:46.940 it was black Sabbath kind of was like the first band like that.

00:34:50.400 Cause even,

00:34:51.380 even like,

00:34:52.360 like,

00:34:53.300 you know,

00:34:53.820 um,

00:34:54.220 Led Zeppelin or,

00:34:55.460 or,

00:34:55.780 or the rolling stones,

00:34:57.200 they were rock and roll.

00:34:58.500 They definitely weren't heavy metal.

00:35:00.280 And metal is Tony Iommi.

00:35:02.100 And anybody who tells you anything else is a liar.

00:35:04.280 Like,

00:35:04.420 sorry.

00:35:05.140 It's true.

00:35:05.920 It's true.

00:35:06.400 Tony Iommi created metal at the end.

00:35:08.580 Yeah.

00:35:09.080 There you go.

00:35:09.600 That,

00:35:09.880 you know,

00:35:10.120 put a ball in it and ship it off.

00:35:12.080 It's,

00:35:12.240 it's good to go.

00:35:13.180 Um,

00:35:13.980 but,

00:35:14.860 but yeah,

00:35:15.280 like there's always been that kind of pass the torch thing.

00:35:18.460 And look,

00:35:19.240 people are living longer nowadays than,

00:35:21.420 than they had.

00:35:22.000 And,

00:35:22.140 and people are having more,

00:35:23.660 more active lives later in their life,

00:35:27.480 you know,

00:35:27.640 more,

00:35:28.100 more active years later in their life.

00:35:29.940 I mean,

00:35:30.140 the rolling stones again,

00:35:31.400 you know,

00:35:31.720 everyone keeps making Keith Richards jokes,

00:35:33.640 but like Keith,

00:35:34.420 Keith Richards outlived Ozzie and he's still heroin.

00:35:38.780 You can live forever.

00:35:40.060 That's,

00:35:40.540 that's what I learned.

00:35:42.000 That's what I really,

00:35:43.400 it's like,

00:35:43.840 you want,

00:35:44.440 you want to tell people,

00:35:45.380 look,

00:35:45.520 doing the drugs like this is going to kill you.

00:35:47.500 But there's,

00:35:47.940 then it's like,

00:35:48.400 it's Keith.

00:35:48.780 It either kills you at 35 or you live to 95.

00:35:51.920 Those are the options.

00:35:52.740 Like there's no,

00:35:53.400 you're not,

00:35:53.980 you're not passing at 50 because of heroin.

00:35:56.220 No,

00:35:56.500 you're either going to 30 or you're going at 90.

00:36:00.300 It's like the,

00:36:00.940 I don't know if you've heard,

00:36:01.960 heard about the,

00:36:02.680 the age 27,

00:36:04.400 but 27 is killed.

00:36:05.620 There's a lot of people that have died at the age 27.

00:36:07.920 Hendrix and Joplin.

00:36:09.060 Yeah.

00:36:09.780 Yeah.

00:36:10.060 If you make it past 27,

00:36:11.540 then,

00:36:12.140 then,

00:36:12.360 you know,

00:36:12.720 it's smooth sailing until you're,

00:36:14.320 until you're a twilight years,

00:36:16.120 I guess.

00:36:16.660 But yeah,

00:36:17.360 look there,

00:36:18.340 there is an amount of,

00:36:19.920 of,

00:36:20.480 you know,

00:36:21.020 passing the torch that kind of hasn't happened,

00:36:23.120 but there's also,

00:36:23.840 you know,

00:36:24.800 I don't think there's as many young bands that are coming up or have come up

00:36:28.640 that are really good.

00:36:30.120 Not that I have my finger on the,

00:36:31.940 on the pulse nowadays.

00:36:33.020 You know,

00:36:33.360 I mean,

00:36:33.560 I got,

00:36:33.980 I got other things that I do in my life.

00:36:35.980 I I'm trying to,

00:36:37.140 you know,

00:36:37.440 keeping all that remains as,

00:36:39.160 as a,

00:36:39.720 a functioning entity doing the stuff with Tim.

00:36:44.280 And I got a family now,

00:36:45.720 like,

00:36:46.100 you know,

00:36:46.380 that's a,

00:36:46.860 that's plenty of juggling,

00:36:47.900 at least for me.

00:36:49.480 So I'm not out there exploring new music a lot.

00:36:52.920 If there's a band that has some cool stuff,

00:36:54.980 I'll check out.

00:36:55.780 But me and my,

00:36:57.000 my girlfriend,

00:36:57.680 like she likes a lot of the younger kind of bands and,

00:37:00.580 and we'll get into debates about like things like,

00:37:03.080 I think that every band nowadays is trying to be bring me the horizon.

00:37:07.360 And she swears up and down that they don't all sound like bring me the horizon.

00:37:10.960 And I'm like,

00:37:11.280 no,

00:37:11.840 they all sound like bring me the horizon because,

00:37:13.560 you know,

00:37:14.160 bring me the horizon had this,

00:37:15.740 they,

00:37:15.920 they had a couple of records that were so influential,

00:37:18.420 like some paternal is hugely influential.

00:37:21.100 I forget the name of the next one.

00:37:24.320 They had a couple of records that were hugely influential and they,

00:37:26.780 you know,

00:37:27.180 they really solidified themselves as this massive band.

00:37:30.700 And now there's a ton of bands like architects.

00:37:32.940 They sound so much like bring me the horizon,

00:37:36.160 which,

00:37:36.360 you know,

00:37:36.660 other people might not hear it,

00:37:38.060 but this is an old,

00:37:39.200 you know,

00:37:39.320 now I'm an old guy with old guy ears listening to new music.

00:37:42.920 And it's like,

00:37:43.680 well,

00:37:43.940 you know,

00:37:44.160 it just sounds like this man.

00:37:45.500 So you've heard it all before now.

00:37:47.060 Yeah.

00:37:47.680 I mean,

00:37:48.060 really we,

00:37:48.680 I,

00:37:48.920 I have,

00:37:49.560 you know,

00:37:49.740 and that's,

00:37:50.160 that's what it feels like.

00:37:50.940 So I'd,

00:37:51.460 I'd like to see more music coming out,

00:37:53.660 but I don't,

00:37:54.680 I don't know.

00:37:55.880 You know,

00:37:56.080 I don't know that there's a ton of really fresh stuff.

00:37:58.980 I know I mentioned this band a lot,

00:38:01.080 this band called sleep token.

00:38:03.320 They've got a lot of imagery that they do.

00:38:05.940 Like the,

00:38:06.440 they dress up in these costumes,

00:38:08.500 which is not new,

00:38:09.320 but I think that moving forward,

00:38:10.920 you're going to have to be offering people more than just,

00:38:14.180 you know,

00:38:14.420 five dudes in jeans and t-shirts.

00:38:16.540 I think those days are gone.

00:38:17.960 I think people,

00:38:18.600 because of the,

00:38:19.080 because of the age of social media,

00:38:20.620 like people are really looking for something that is,

00:38:24.240 that engages them visually as well as engages them sonically.

00:38:29.060 And so,

00:38:30.640 you know,

00:38:31.280 that's,

00:38:31.720 that's kind of the stuff that I see,

00:38:33.180 but you know,

00:38:34.280 the whole past,

00:38:34.700 they're kind of a new slipknot,

00:38:38.100 right?

00:38:38.300 Like they're,

00:38:38.680 they have the lore and they have,

00:38:40.560 you know,

00:38:40.800 the,

00:38:41.000 the identities and the following,

00:38:43.040 it's not a one-to-one,

00:38:44.140 but you know,

00:38:44.680 they're,

00:38:44.900 they're one of the few bands that's building a world around themselves,

00:38:47.720 building mystery,

00:38:48.980 you know,

00:38:49.260 that kind of thing.

00:38:50.040 that as you say is,

00:38:51.740 you know,

00:38:52.020 most,

00:38:52.320 most guys just want to show up in a t-shirt and,

00:38:54.380 and,

00:38:54.700 you know,

00:38:55.200 play a cool riff.

00:38:56.720 Yeah.

00:38:56.840 I mean,

00:38:57.060 look,

00:38:57.280 the,

00:38:57.420 the singers called vessel.

00:38:59.400 And as if I understand correctly,

00:39:00.840 most people still do not know his real name.

00:39:04.100 I mean,

00:39:04.600 I thought when,

00:39:05.360 when slipknot came out,

00:39:06.340 you know,

00:39:06.500 years and years ago,

00:39:07.260 when they came out,

00:39:07.980 I thought it was cool that each,

00:39:09.500 that they all had a number,

00:39:10.560 right?

00:39:10.780 Zero through eight.

00:39:12.040 And like,

00:39:12.640 I was like,

00:39:13.020 that's super cool.

00:39:13.980 The masks are super cool.

00:39:15.180 And like when they,

00:39:16.860 when they stopped using the numbers,

00:39:18.520 when they started allowing their names to get out,

00:39:20.300 I was like,

00:39:20.680 that's a bummer.

00:39:21.780 You know what I mean?

00:39:22.260 I was like,

00:39:22.860 I was like the,

00:39:23.720 the numbers were cool.

00:39:25.000 The,

00:39:25.340 the masks were cool and fair enough.

00:39:27.600 You know,

00:39:27.900 it,

00:39:28.220 it,

00:39:28.520 I'm sure that it gets old and stuff,

00:39:29.980 but I,

00:39:30.220 I kind of wish that they kind of leaned into the whole,

00:39:33.500 you know,

00:39:34.280 zero through eight and,

00:39:36.000 and everybody's always seen in the masks thing a little bit longer,

00:39:39.940 but you know,

00:39:40.940 I mean,

00:39:41.180 they,

00:39:41.420 they became,

00:39:42.380 you know,

00:39:43.020 slipknot is now ubiquitous with heavy music.

00:39:45.180 And,

00:39:45.480 and they're one of the biggest heavy bands possibly ever.

00:39:49.880 So,

00:39:50.440 you know,

00:39:50.680 I can't really say that they did stuff wrong,

00:39:52.440 but I really thought it was cool that,

00:39:54.340 that nobody in the band had a name.

00:39:56.300 They were all just numbers and you never saw their faces and stuff.

00:39:58.920 So that kind of,

00:40:00.040 that kind of imagery and that kind of,

00:40:02.320 you know,

00:40:03.460 presentation I eat was something that was even,

00:40:06.620 you know,

00:40:06.880 even I found really cool.

00:40:08.000 So I think that what,

00:40:09.060 what the guys in,

00:40:10.260 in sleep token are doing is,

00:40:12.720 is really,

00:40:13.260 really cool.

00:40:13.640 Some say the bubbles in an arrow truffle piece can take 34 seconds to melt in your mouth.

00:40:19.300 Sometimes the very amount you're stuck at the same red light,

00:40:22.260 rich,

00:40:23.480 creamy,

00:40:24.200 chocolatey arrow truffle,

00:40:25.800 feel the arrow bubbles melt.

00:40:27.760 It's mind bubbling.

00:40:28.800 So I want to talk to you a little bit about your political journey as well.

00:40:34.520 Obviously you're one of your gigs now is as a co-host on Tim cast or your regular feet fixture over there.

00:40:42.740 And,

00:40:43.180 you know,

00:40:44.700 conservatives have this weird tension where they're like,

00:40:48.220 you know,

00:40:49.280 celebrities just shut up and sing until they said something.

00:40:52.540 I like,

00:40:52.920 wait,

00:40:53.160 you can stick around,

00:40:54.120 talk a lot actually.

00:40:55.000 And it's just kind of a strange thing where,

00:40:57.440 you know,

00:40:58.280 you,

00:40:58.520 you recognize that ultimately it's not that they don't want a celebrity's opinion,

00:41:03.240 that they think that they're somehow not valid,

00:41:05.640 that like a musician wouldn't have an interesting take on something.

00:41:09.280 They're just tired of it all being like really dumb leftist stuff.

00:41:12.980 And so I just want to,

00:41:14.620 maybe you can talk a little bit about how you got into politics,

00:41:17.100 how you ended up on Tim cast and how that's become such a big part of your public persona.

00:41:22.260 So I've always been right wing,

00:41:24.340 like even when,

00:41:26.100 like my dad was a business owner and like he owned a small business and,

00:41:29.860 and he would deal,

00:41:31.220 he would work with the government,

00:41:32.280 like he would contract with the government.

00:41:33.760 So he was with the local government.

00:41:35.620 I mean,

00:41:35.920 and so he would complain about all the bureaucracy and crap that he had to deal with.

00:41:40.140 And this is,

00:41:40.560 you know,

00:41:40.860 he would,

00:41:41.440 he was digging sewer pipes for the municipal government of Chicopee.

00:41:46.700 Right.

00:41:46.860 So it's not like he was dealing with the federal government,

00:41:49.080 but I was,

00:41:50.620 I was,

00:41:50.900 you know,

00:41:51.020 it was very early in my life when I heard about the bureaucrats and the,

00:41:54.020 the,

00:41:54.280 the BS that you had to deal with when you're dealing with the,

00:41:57.160 with the government and stuff.

00:41:59.080 And so that was something that was ingrained in me,

00:42:01.200 you know,

00:42:01.720 when I was young,

00:42:02.480 you know,

00:42:02.680 go out and do something for yourself,

00:42:04.780 start,

00:42:05.220 start doing your own thing.

00:42:07.320 Don't work for someone else.

00:42:08.400 If you can get,

00:42:08.980 if you don't have to,

00:42:09.940 you know,

00:42:11.280 have,

00:42:11.820 have,

00:42:12.660 have stuff that is your own and own,

00:42:14.920 like owning your own business is part of owning your own life.

00:42:18.700 And,

00:42:19.180 and so that's,

00:42:20.700 that's a very right wing kind of perspective.

00:42:23.080 I do think that the blank slate is BS.

00:42:25.420 Like,

00:42:25.700 I do think that people are inclined to have a kind of political position based on

00:42:32.060 their,

00:42:32.340 their personality.

00:42:33.160 Um,

00:42:34.680 so I was,

00:42:36.340 like I said,

00:42:37.020 I was always right wing.

00:42:38.100 I started paying attention to politics in the late nineties,

00:42:40.880 you know,

00:42:41.580 when,

00:42:42.080 when impeachment for Bill Clinton was going on.

00:42:44.480 And that was like the first time that I was kind of,

00:42:47.800 that I was introduced to how just badly,

00:42:50.880 just how bad government actually is and how there is not like the law doesn't

00:42:57.800 really matter.

00:42:58.460 Cause I was,

00:42:59.660 I was sure that when,

00:43:01.020 when I heard that,

00:43:01.860 you know,

00:43:02.600 Bill Clinton had,

00:43:03.420 had committed perjury,

00:43:04.580 I was sure that he was going to step down because,

00:43:07.340 you know,

00:43:07.460 Nixon had stepped down.

00:43:08.540 He,

00:43:08.740 you know,

00:43:09.160 in my experience,

00:43:10.200 if that kind of stuff happened,

00:43:11.420 you,

00:43:11.680 you didn't stay in office,

00:43:12.880 you,

00:43:13.140 you,

00:43:13.520 you left.

00:43:14.460 And if it would have,

00:43:15.200 I knew that if I had done that,

00:43:16.460 that I would go to jail.

00:43:17.280 So of course he was going to step down or of course he was going to be removed

00:43:19.520 from office.

00:43:19.940 And then when he wasn't,

00:43:21.760 I was aghast,

00:43:23.000 you know,

00:43:23.340 the naive 22 year old,

00:43:25.760 23 or naive 24 year old Phil was like,

00:43:28.380 what do you mean?

00:43:29.480 He's not,

00:43:30.580 you know,

00:43:30.860 he's not gonna,

00:43:31.740 gonna step down.

00:43:32.640 What do you mean that he's,

00:43:33.920 he's just going to be able to,

00:43:35.240 he can stay,

00:43:35.840 he can stay in office and he's not going to go to jail or anything.

00:43:38.420 Like I would have gone to jail.

00:43:40.260 Like we all,

00:43:41.160 everyone I know would have gone to jail.

00:43:43.020 How can he get away with this?

00:43:44.520 How can this happen?

00:43:45.100 And so I like,

00:43:46.060 that was my first introduction to,

00:43:47.680 to politics.

00:43:48.500 And so because of that,

00:43:49.880 my perspective was like,

00:43:50.820 Oh,

00:43:50.980 okay.

00:43:51.560 Yeah.

00:43:51.680 The Democrats are the liars and the Republicans tell the truth.

00:43:54.500 Again,

00:43:55.040 very naive,

00:43:56.260 very naive.

00:43:57.200 Womp,

00:43:57.480 womp,

00:43:57.820 womp.

00:43:58.260 You know,

00:44:00.340 but that was,

00:44:01.000 that was the thing that I,

00:44:02.020 that's the impression that I had as a young guy.

00:44:03.840 And then after that it was,

00:44:05.500 you know,

00:44:05.740 a nine 11 happened.

00:44:06.600 And then,

00:44:07.260 you know,

00:44:07.740 there was the whole Iraq war and I was like,

00:44:09.500 Oh,

00:44:09.800 so they both kind of will lay it on to get what they want and stuff.

00:44:13.760 Um,

00:44:14.920 but yeah,

00:44:15.240 like I said,

00:44:15.660 I mean,

00:44:15.940 I was,

00:44:16.780 I was always,

00:44:18.200 I've always been some kind of right winger.

00:44:19.580 Even when I was a libertarian,

00:44:20.720 I was a right leaning libertarian.

00:44:22.160 I was a Ron Paul guy.

00:44:23.580 Um,

00:44:24.180 and I'd spent a lot of time arguing politics,

00:44:26.760 like just on,

00:44:27.680 on chat,

00:44:28.240 on chat boards,

00:44:29.080 right before Twitter,

00:44:29.840 you would do essentially what you do on Twitter,

00:44:32.480 but you do it on message board.

00:44:34.220 So I would go to like lamb goat.com or metal maniacs message board.

00:44:38.540 And there were always people that were interested in,

00:44:40.940 you know,

00:44:41.360 debating politics and,

00:44:42.620 and to,

00:44:43.400 to my,

00:44:44.300 uh,

00:44:45.160 you know,

00:44:45.520 I,

00:44:46.600 I always found there were people that were on the left that were very

00:44:50.260 interested in arguing.

00:44:51.600 And of course,

00:44:52.020 as,

00:44:52.680 as the band started to get more popular and,

00:44:56.280 and started to,

00:44:57.120 you know,

00:44:57.420 make a name for ourselves.

00:44:59.220 Um,

00:44:59.700 this is in the underground still,

00:45:00.920 because they're talking about 2003,

00:45:02.700 2004,

00:45:03.320 2005,

00:45:04.340 um,

00:45:04.840 before Twitter existed.

00:45:06.380 Um,

00:45:07.000 people would,

00:45:07.760 would want to go,

00:45:09.300 you know,

00:45:09.640 I had a little more,

00:45:10.800 a little notoriety in the underground as the guy from all that remains,

00:45:13.660 you know,

00:45:13.780 we had records out in there so that people would jump in there and they'd want to,

00:45:16.440 you know,

00:45:16.720 mix it up on,

00:45:17.860 on the political side and stuff.

00:45:19.620 And there was plenty of stuff to debate about,

00:45:21.440 you know,

00:45:21.580 this is the,

00:45:21.960 the George Bush days.

00:45:23.460 Um,

00:45:23.780 so it's,

00:45:25.040 it's been something that I've always,

00:45:26.940 it's always been a part of me.

00:45:28.340 Like I remember debating,

00:45:29.940 you know,

00:45:30.560 I was,

00:45:31.380 I,

00:45:31.640 I think I was debating some of the impeachment stuff in the,

00:45:34.720 in the late nineties as well on like metal maniacs message board.

00:45:38.440 Um,

00:45:39.180 so,

00:45:39.500 and then,

00:45:39.900 you know,

00:45:40.120 once the woke era came,

00:45:42.040 like there was a lot of pressure on people to not have political takes.

00:45:46.080 And I was very much like,

00:45:47.860 no,

00:45:48.580 no,

00:45:48.860 no,

00:45:48.960 no,

00:45:49.120 this is the wrong thing to do.

00:45:50.520 You don't let them push you around and stuff.

00:45:52.540 And I'm sure that that,

00:45:54.660 you know,

00:45:55.000 I made a lot of enemies because of that,

00:45:56.980 because I was like,

00:45:57.640 no,

00:45:57.860 this is bullshit.

00:45:58.700 F them.

00:45:59.240 You don't let them tell you what you can say and can't say,

00:46:01.640 you know,

00:46:02.260 you can say the F slur,

00:46:03.480 you can say this and that.

00:46:04.640 I was like,

00:46:05.040 it's,

00:46:05.400 they're just words,

00:46:06.320 you know?

00:46:07.260 Um,

00:46:07.860 and,

00:46:08.140 and,

00:46:08.440 and there were a lot of people that got very upset about that.

00:46:10.740 And,

00:46:11.200 but that's,

00:46:12.620 that was,

00:46:13.140 you know,

00:46:13.320 this is,

00:46:13.600 that's kind of always been my take as I didn't understand why things were the way

00:46:17.600 they were.

00:46:18.000 I didn't,

00:46:18.500 I didn't have a,

00:46:19.260 a background in philosophy or a background in,

00:46:21.760 in,

00:46:22.540 I wasn't a leftist.

00:46:23.580 I hadn't read like leftist literature either.

00:46:25.580 So I didn't understand any of it,

00:46:27.200 but I kind of had a sense.

00:46:28.600 I mean,

00:46:28.740 there's a reason why I named the fall of ideals,

00:46:31.120 the record that came out in 2006 that kind of put us on the map.

00:46:34.960 Um,

00:46:35.340 the reason I named it the fall of ideals is because I could smell it coming,

00:46:38.860 right?

00:46:39.040 Like I knew that something had changed in the United States and like these,

00:46:44.280 the principles and the ideals that,

00:46:46.460 that kind of like made America what it was made America,

00:46:49.900 this,

00:46:50.200 this,

00:46:50.440 this shining city on a hill.

00:46:53.180 Um,

00:46:53.700 people were starting to look at them as quaint and people were starting to look at them

00:46:57.740 as,

00:46:58.220 as,

00:46:58.260 Oh,

00:46:58.300 well,

00:46:58.400 isn't that funny?

00:46:59.220 Well,

00:46:59.420 you know,

00:46:59.680 of course we want free speech,

00:47:01.940 but you know,

00:47:02.840 blah,

00:47:03.040 blah,

00:47:03.200 blah.

00:47:03.540 And there hadn't been anything like there hadn't been a serious issue that made it a big

00:47:08.740 deal for people to say,

00:47:10.040 well,

00:47:10.320 you know,

00:47:10.580 it's not really that big of a deal.

00:47:11.920 Like it,

00:47:12.460 there wasn't any kind of like inflection point.

00:47:15.000 Um,

00:47:15.800 but you could kind of tell that like the things that,

00:47:19.580 that people,

00:47:20.560 the things that made America what it is had become passe and,

00:47:24.980 and,

00:47:25.360 or were becoming passe.

00:47:26.840 And,

00:47:27.040 and I,

00:47:27.600 I didn't,

00:47:28.520 I couldn't articulate why I didn't understand.

00:47:30.660 I didn't understand what was going on,

00:47:32.680 but I could,

00:47:33.180 I could smell it in the air.

00:47:34.500 And I was like,

00:47:35.200 you know,

00:47:35.700 that's why I came up with the title and,

00:47:38.200 and too much to my,

00:47:40.740 my,

00:47:41.380 uh,

00:47:42.120 unhappy,

00:47:43.240 uh,

00:47:44.680 I don't know about,

00:47:45.460 you know,

00:47:45.840 as,

00:47:46.300 as unhappy of a,

00:47:47.240 a situation it was,

00:47:48.860 was to be correct about.

00:47:50.140 I,

00:47:50.280 I was very correct.

00:47:51.160 There's now these,

00:47:52.300 all these fights about whether or not the United States is a,

00:47:55.040 a,

00:47:55.420 is worth saving from,

00:47:57.340 from people on the left.

00:47:58.540 And the whole,

00:47:59.640 like,

00:47:59.840 you know,

00:47:59.980 the United States is the,

00:48:01.060 the root of all evil.

00:48:02.260 And,

00:48:02.620 and all of these things that,

00:48:04.800 that have been,

00:48:06.380 have now become the normal arguments from the left.

00:48:09.880 Um,

00:48:10.780 you know,

00:48:11.140 those arguments weren't,

00:48:12.540 weren't the arguments being made in the,

00:48:14.500 in the aughts,

00:48:15.840 right?

00:48:15.960 Like those arguments weren't the arguments that Barack Obama made before he was

00:48:19.960 elected.

00:48:20.220 Those arguments weren't the arguments that Hillary Clinton was making before,

00:48:23.540 when she was running,

00:48:24.380 uh,

00:48:25.040 in 2008 against Barack Obama.

00:48:27.280 You didn't hear anybody saying the kinds of,

00:48:29.280 the kinds of the kinds of things that you hear Kamala Harris saying,

00:48:33.800 even Joe,

00:48:34.300 like you,

00:48:34.660 you heard Joe Biden say them when he was running in,

00:48:37.760 in 2020,

00:48:39.080 um,

00:48:40.220 you know,

00:48:40.500 2019 leading up to the 2020 election.

00:48:42.720 But even like,

00:48:45.080 even now it's like,

00:48:46.140 if you go back and listen to Joe Biden from the aughts,

00:48:48.580 like he was very much like a pro America kind of dude,

00:48:51.880 even though he had what I'm were in my opinion,

00:48:55.080 bad ideas back then.

00:48:56.740 Um,

00:48:57.240 they weren't anti-American ideas.

00:48:58.840 And now the whole of the left has,

00:49:00.800 has anti-American ideas like,

00:49:03.260 like openly,

00:49:03.940 like they straight up say,

00:49:05.480 we do not want to continue this,

00:49:08.640 you know,

00:49:09.400 racist,

00:49:10.180 fascist,

00:49:10.920 white supremacist,

00:49:12.280 hetero patriarchy,

00:49:13.520 you know,

00:49:13.800 all,

00:49:14.080 all of the things that the,

00:49:15.300 the crazy left says,

00:49:16.780 the,

00:49:17.060 the Democrats have to,

00:49:18.280 have to,

00:49:19.180 you know,

00:49:20.000 placate their,

00:49:20.680 their base with by,

00:49:21.980 by at least agreeing in principle,

00:49:24.940 even if they're,

00:49:25.780 they're like,

00:49:26.100 well,

00:49:26.260 we can't do it all right now.

00:49:27.560 You know,

00:49:27.720 we have to wait on the revolution.

00:49:29.320 Um,

00:49:29.700 so yeah,

00:49:30.700 the,

00:49:31.720 that had been my thing for all of the,

00:49:34.120 the teens.

00:49:35.120 And,

00:49:35.660 and I,

00:49:36.600 that was when I was listening to,

00:49:38.160 you know,

00:49:38.400 the whole gamer gate thing.

00:49:39.680 So I was listening to Sargon stuff.

00:49:41.060 I was listening to Tim pool.

00:49:42.960 Obviously I was listening to his,

00:49:44.160 his clips and stuff.

00:49:45.980 And then one day,

00:49:48.080 Tim,

00:49:48.580 you know,

00:49:48.920 we,

00:49:49.200 uh,

00:49:49.480 Tim and I just kind of started chatting on,

00:49:51.880 um,

00:49:52.600 on X back and forth a little bit.

00:49:54.420 And then he invited me to come on the show.

00:49:55.980 I was on the show a couple of times.

00:49:57.200 And then there was the,

00:49:58.060 the infamous Alex Jones episode where Tim called me up.

00:50:01.180 He's like,

00:50:01.440 Hey,

00:50:01.960 come on down here and help me keep Alex Jones in check,

00:50:04.300 you know,

00:50:04.500 rain him in a little bit because YouTube,

00:50:06.480 blah,

00:50:06.600 blah,

00:50:06.720 blah.

00:50:07.000 But I,

00:50:07.360 I just need you to come down and help out.

00:50:09.200 And I was like,

00:50:09.500 Oh yeah,

00:50:09.680 I'll totally come down and help out.

00:50:11.020 And I didn't help one bit.

00:50:12.600 There's the,

00:50:13.040 there's the meme going around where I'm just like,

00:50:15.340 yes,

00:50:16.360 yes,

00:50:16.920 this is why I'm here after Alex starts saying some crazy stuff.

00:50:20.640 And,

00:50:20.800 and,

00:50:21.620 uh,

00:50:21.800 it was a lot of fun and,

00:50:23.380 you know,

00:50:23.540 we hit it off really well.

00:50:24.440 And then I think it was maybe 2023.

00:50:28.420 I was just sitting in my room.

00:50:30.140 Funny enough.

00:50:30.440 I was,

00:50:30.740 I was sitting in my,

00:50:31.660 my house in New Hampshire,

00:50:33.120 just cleaning a rifle,

00:50:34.640 listening to Tim do a live,

00:50:35.880 uh,

00:50:36.460 live stream.

00:50:37.000 And he was talking about,

00:50:37.960 you know,

00:50:38.100 maybe I'll get someone to come down and,

00:50:39.620 and,

00:50:40.380 or maybe I'll get someone to,

00:50:41.760 to do,

00:50:42.380 to cover for when I'm out.

00:50:43.840 And so I can take time off or whatever.

00:50:45.980 And I just sent him a super chat and I was like,

00:50:47.300 I'll do it.

00:50:48.000 And then he's like,

00:50:49.120 he's like,

00:50:49.580 seriously.

00:50:50.180 And I was like,

00:50:51.020 wait,

00:50:51.160 are you serious?

00:50:51.900 And so then I went down and did a show and we talked a little bit about it.

00:50:56.160 And,

00:50:56.380 and,

00:50:57.120 uh,

00:50:57.340 you know,

00:50:57.520 initially I was only on a couple of times a week,

00:50:59.640 but now,

00:51:00.120 uh,

00:51:00.820 you know,

00:51:01.440 you trust me enough to have me host the show when he's not there.

00:51:04.480 And,

00:51:04.900 you know,

00:51:05.020 we,

00:51:05.280 he wasn't in last night and I did the show and it was great.

00:51:07.960 So,

00:51:08.900 you know,

00:51:09.320 um,

00:51:09.880 it's nice to have someone on staff that if an emergency comes up,

00:51:14.520 you can say,

00:51:14.820 Hey,

00:51:15.400 handle the show.

00:51:16.020 You know,

00:51:16.200 like if he's going to be gone for a while,

00:51:17.760 he'll have people come in as guests and stuff.

00:51:19.660 But if it,

00:51:20.200 if there's an emergency,

00:51:20.960 it's like,

00:51:21.500 Phil,

00:51:21.900 I can just jump in and do it,

00:51:23.440 you know?

00:51:24.200 Um,

00:51:24.740 so that's how I got linked up with him.

00:51:26.100 But the,

00:51:26.780 the right wing politics thing,

00:51:28.280 that was one of the things that I said to Tim,

00:51:29.840 I was like,

00:51:30.200 look,

00:51:30.400 man,

00:51:30.640 I really think that the,

00:51:32.340 the Democrats and the left is a massive,

00:51:35.440 massive problem.

00:51:36.320 Uh,

00:51:37.200 and it,

00:51:37.560 and it's,

00:51:38.120 it's really scary.

00:51:39.000 What's going to happen if we,

00:51:40.380 if we can't push them back.

00:51:42.280 And,

00:51:42.740 and so like a big part of the reason why I,

00:51:45.360 you know,

00:51:45.660 decided that I would,

00:51:46.740 you know,

00:51:47.060 up and move myself from New Hampshire to West Virginia part-time was

00:51:53.020 because,

00:51:53.460 you know,

00:51:54.420 I really believe that it's a problem that would,

00:51:58.420 you know,

00:51:59.420 metastasize into something really,

00:52:01.500 really horrible.

00:52:02.040 And I'm going to take one second to tell people you have to go and

00:52:05.800 vote.

00:52:06.720 You have to go and vote for,

00:52:08.640 for the conservatives,

00:52:10.060 because even if they're terrible,

00:52:11.800 the Democrats will literally destroy the country.

00:52:14.660 They're,

00:52:15.140 they will expand the court.

00:52:16.800 They will end the filibuster to do whatever they want.

00:52:20.020 If they get the majority,

00:52:21.460 nevermind the fact that they're going to impeach Donald Trump.

00:52:24.400 Like for me,

00:52:25.160 this is not about Donald Trump.

00:52:26.420 This is about the United States.

00:52:28.000 If I,

00:52:29.180 if you gave me the power of like throw Donald Trump in jail forever,

00:52:32.880 but save the United States or don't throw Donald Trump in jail,

00:52:37.420 but you don't save the United States.

00:52:39.960 Donald Trump is going to jail forever.

00:52:41.320 Okay.

00:52:41.780 I don't,

00:52:42.460 I don't care that it's Donald Trump.

00:52:44.340 I don't care about the personality.

00:52:45.640 Um,

00:52:46.800 the point is like the United States is like that shining city on the Hill.

00:52:51.180 And if that light goes out,

00:52:52.500 I don't know that it will,

00:52:54.160 will,

00:52:54.600 I don't know that we'll be able to reignite it without significant problems.

00:52:58.240 And if the United States isn't an entity,

00:53:00.520 the rest of the world becomes chaos as well.

00:53:02.860 So there's my little political spiel.

00:53:04.880 Don't,

00:53:05.200 I know that you,

00:53:06.140 you can,

00:53:06.680 you can,

00:53:07.000 people can be blackpilled and stuff like that.

00:53:08.600 This is like this.

00:53:09.520 You can't be blackpilled about this.

00:53:10.940 You have to go out and you have to fight the Democrats.

00:53:13.780 And the only way you can fight the Democrats is by voting.

00:53:16.380 So there you go.

00:53:17.960 What,

00:53:18.360 what about metal playing it's,

00:53:20.480 uh,

00:53:20.680 or politics playing itself out in metal?

00:53:22.720 Cause it always seems to have had a very strange tension at some level.

00:53:26.160 Metal obviously,

00:53:27.140 uh,

00:53:27.920 music tends to have this like rebellious nature.

00:53:30.820 Uh,

00:53:31.100 often,

00:53:31.740 you know,

00:53:31.940 the industry is very left wing,

00:53:33.400 but metal also has always had,

00:53:36.640 uh,

00:53:37.360 I wouldn't say,

00:53:37.980 I wouldn't call it conservative,

00:53:38.960 but I,

00:53:39.660 I think this is an appropriate time to say a right wing orientation.

00:53:43.380 It is reactionary because it is always talking about the more brutal parts of life.

00:53:51.260 Uh,

00:53:51.700 even,

00:53:52.080 you know,

00:53:52.220 people will say,

00:53:53.020 you know,

00:53:53.300 how do you feel about depictions of,

00:53:55.300 you know,

00:53:55.780 uh,

00:53:56.220 you know,

00:53:56.740 kind of Satan and,

00:53:57.840 and,

00:53:58.080 and,

00:53:58.340 and God and stuff in this.

00:53:59.520 And,

00:53:59.940 you know,

00:54:00.060 I,

00:54:00.320 I avoid any of the like,

00:54:01.620 actually,

00:54:02.200 Hey,

00:54:02.520 we like Satan metal or whatever.

00:54:03.900 I'm like,

00:54:04.380 I don't listen to that,

00:54:05.760 but I think of the fact that it is always dealing with evil,

00:54:09.280 much like horror,

00:54:10.200 even if the,

00:54:11.520 uh,

00:54:12.400 the directors or the people involved don't mean to,

00:54:15.240 they often accidentally convey conservative or right wing or reactionary

00:54:19.980 understandings of the world because they have to acknowledge evil.

00:54:23.000 They have to acknowledge this struggle and they have to,

00:54:26.240 they're often pushing vitality or masculinity in otherwise,

00:54:31.400 uh,

00:54:32.260 you know,

00:54:32.900 environments might be devoid of it.

00:54:34.500 So you have this weird dichotomy where I've been to some metal shows,

00:54:37.600 especially the younger ones,

00:54:38.960 uh,

00:54:39.520 where it's like,

00:54:40.120 well,

00:54:40.540 your pronouns are welcome here.

00:54:42.040 And,

00:54:42.360 you know,

00:54:42.480 we're,

00:54:42.680 we're raging against Donald Trump by buying into literally everything that

00:54:46.480 the mainstream believes.

00:54:47.540 Uh,

00:54:48.120 but then also,

00:54:49.080 especially with older metal,

00:54:50.420 it seems like,

00:54:51.240 even though,

00:54:51.900 again,

00:54:53.320 you know,

00:54:53.800 a lot of these guys maybe even started like in direct rebellion against

00:54:57.120 Christianity,

00:54:57.540 you look at it and there's a lot of older metal guys converting to

00:55:01.940 Christianity.

00:55:02.420 You see Bucky Lawless of wasp putting out gospel albums,

00:55:06.640 you know,

00:55:07.280 uh,

00:55:07.500 Dave Mustaine is a Christian,

00:55:09.120 you know,

00:55:09.440 like,

00:55:09.800 uh,

00:55:10.280 I've heard that even Rob Halford has,

00:55:12.300 you know,

00:55:12.520 moved that direction.

00:55:13.500 I don't know.

00:55:14.000 I,

00:55:14.800 again,

00:55:15.060 I,

00:55:15.240 you know,

00:55:15.620 third hand,

00:55:16.260 but like you,

00:55:17.020 you just see a lot of these guys kind of shift that direction and

00:55:21.200 either way,

00:55:21.760 they still maintain like a politics that seemed to be right wing.

00:55:26.120 So I don't know.

00:55:26.660 What do you think about,

00:55:27.580 uh,

00:55:28.160 you know,

00:55:28.400 how that's played itself out between the artists and the,

00:55:31.580 the way that kind of metal presents its politics?

00:55:34.460 Well,

00:55:34.900 I think you kind of hit the nail on the head.

00:55:36.640 Um,

00:55:37.180 in,

00:55:37.720 in the aspect that like younger people tend to be more progressive or

00:55:42.620 more left-leaning,

00:55:43.380 um,

00:55:44.540 and older people tend to be more right-leaning.

00:55:47.420 Um,

00:55:47.940 they kind of,

00:55:48.620 you get disillusioned with the world.

00:55:50.400 You see,

00:55:50.860 like,

00:55:51.100 like I said,

00:55:51.520 I mean,

00:55:51.680 I was,

00:55:52.000 I was young and,

00:55:52.740 and,

00:55:53.200 and very naive when I was,

00:55:55.160 when I was,

00:55:55.680 you know,

00:55:55.840 in my twenties and stuff.

00:55:57.420 And even when I was,

00:55:59.240 you know,

00:55:59.840 even then,

00:56:00.340 even though I would consider myself right wing in,

00:56:02.900 in the U S context and stuff,

00:56:04.380 like I was,

00:56:05.260 I was still like,

00:56:05.980 Oh,

00:56:06.120 you know,

00:56:06.440 you know,

00:56:06.680 gay marriage is fine because it was the nineties and everyone's like,

00:56:09.180 Oh,

00:56:09.380 you know,

00:56:09.680 that's,

00:56:10.220 that's fine.

00:56:10.760 and so I,

00:56:12.860 even I had my very,

00:56:14.120 my fairly progressive perspectives on things.

00:56:17.280 Um,

00:56:18.380 I don't know.

00:56:20.200 I don't know for sure why it is that,

00:56:23.200 that young people tend to be,

00:56:25.240 um,

00:56:26.260 more left-leaning and,

00:56:27.880 and older people tend to be more right-leaning.

00:56:30.100 Um,

00:56:30.500 I do think that,

00:56:31.520 that your,

00:56:32.180 your analysis of the,

00:56:34.520 the topics that are covered in metal and,

00:56:39.340 and kind of just the realities that metal shows like,

00:56:42.580 cause that's,

00:56:43.120 that is as much as people don't want to admit it,

00:56:45.360 like horrible,

00:56:46.480 horrible things that metal bands write about,

00:56:48.320 like those are part of the real,

00:56:50.200 of the real world.

00:56:51.000 Right.

00:56:51.320 And that there's,

00:56:52.060 you know,

00:56:52.880 even,

00:56:53.520 even up to,

00:56:54.340 and including things like that cannibal corpse rights,

00:56:56.720 like the,

00:56:57.400 everything that,

00:56:58.140 that horror movie metal has ever constructed,

00:57:02.360 anything that they've,

00:57:03.220 they've,

00:57:03.580 they've sung about some human somewhere has done that.

00:57:06.540 And,

00:57:07.060 and it's a,

00:57:07.700 in the case of cannibal corpse,

00:57:09.040 it might be them,

00:57:09.980 but yeah,

00:57:10.800 you know,

00:57:12.240 but I mean like,

00:57:13.080 you know,

00:57:13.380 cannibal corpse there,

00:57:14.340 a lot of their,

00:57:15.360 their inspirations are from real people.

00:57:18.260 Ed Gein,

00:57:19.000 not only did Ed Gein inspire movies,

00:57:21.260 but he inspired a lot of band,

00:57:22.660 a lot of bands to write songs.

00:57:24.440 Um,

00:57:24.840 there was this guy named Albert fish that they quoted.

00:57:27.400 They had a big quote from him in,

00:57:29.360 I think it was the butchered at birth record.

00:57:32.440 When you say,

00:57:33.340 when you say the name of some of these records,

00:57:35.120 like out of context,

00:57:36.580 when you say it out loud,

00:57:37.700 you're just like,

00:57:38.460 man,

00:57:38.640 that really does sound horrible.

00:57:39.920 Doesn't it?

00:57:41.080 Um,

00:57:41.860 but yeah,

00:57:42.200 like it was,

00:57:43.180 it was,

00:57:44.280 they,

00:57:44.620 they use a lot of reference that,

00:57:46.540 that from,

00:57:47.340 from real people.

00:57:48.160 And,

00:57:48.400 and the,

00:57:49.800 the,

00:57:50.520 any,

00:57:50.960 any horror that the mind can conceive of has happened and,

00:57:56.900 and has been done any kind of horrible thing that you can think of a person doing someone,

00:58:02.520 someone somewhere has done it at some point in time.

00:58:04.920 So that's a reality that,

00:58:07.200 that,

00:58:07.540 that is part of,

00:58:08.540 of human existence.

00:58:09.520 There,

00:58:10.020 there are people that are malicious and there are people that are,

00:58:14.540 are sadistic.

00:58:16.140 And there are people that do take joy in hurting other people.

00:58:20.660 So to,

00:58:21.840 to acknowledge that,

00:58:23.800 that,

00:58:24.300 that reality,

00:58:25.220 I think is,

00:58:26.240 is part of what the right wing is.

00:58:28.560 Like,

00:58:28.860 I think that,

00:58:29.580 that the left generally doesn't like to acknowledge,

00:58:33.280 or they want to make excuses for it.

00:58:35.500 You hear people saying,

00:58:36.440 oh,

00:58:36.580 well,

00:58:36.740 they're,

00:58:37.200 you know,

00:58:37.640 people that are,

00:58:38.440 that are like that,

00:58:39.140 they're sick.

00:58:39.720 And it's like,

00:58:40.060 maybe they are,

00:58:40.800 but that doesn't mean that the solution is putting them in jail.

00:58:45.980 You know,

00:58:46.760 it's the,

00:58:47.400 the solution actually is something different,

00:58:50.160 whether they're sick or not,

00:58:51.680 because they,

00:58:54.280 if they get out of jail,

00:58:55.440 somehow they'll do it again.

00:58:57.360 And if they're doing terrible things like,

00:59:00.200 you know,

00:59:01.140 like anything,

00:59:01.960 if they've ever done anything,

00:59:03.340 the cannibal corpse has written a song about the solution is to make sure that

00:59:07.180 they never do anything like that again.

00:59:08.960 And jail is insufficient.

00:59:11.100 The Anakin Skywalker meme.

00:59:12.780 I don't want them to go to jail.

00:59:14.180 Yeah,

00:59:14.380 exactly.

00:59:14.660 I don't want them to go to jail.

00:59:15.760 Not at all.

00:59:16.740 Well,

00:59:17.040 but that's exactly it.

00:59:18.300 Well,

00:59:18.660 before we wrap it up,

00:59:19.580 cause I know I've kept you for a while here.

00:59:22.080 You know,

00:59:22.540 there's,

00:59:22.760 there's currently,

00:59:23.420 Oh,

00:59:23.520 and I should have said this at the top.

00:59:24.880 I'll make sure to post this,

00:59:26.040 but we're not live right now with this is prerecorded.

00:59:28.260 I'm traveling.

00:59:28.840 So we won't be able to take any of your questions today.

00:59:31.560 Sorry about that guys.

00:59:33.220 But what will have been a few weeks ago,

00:59:36.040 we're recording this right next to when this happened,

00:59:38.340 but it'll,

00:59:38.900 this'll come out in a week or two.

00:59:41.180 There's a debate right now over right-wing art.

00:59:43.660 It's kind of the,

00:59:44.160 the semi-annual we need more right-wing art debate.

00:59:46.840 And the thing I've noticed is that no one ever asks successful right-wing

00:59:52.180 artists,

00:59:52.620 how we should be doing.

00:59:54.060 So I thought I might go and,

00:59:57.140 you know,

00:59:57.340 have this novel concept of acting,

00:59:59.320 asking a actual guy successfully producing art who is,

01:00:04.060 and has been,

01:00:04.780 you know,

01:00:05.360 right-wing his whole life.

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01:00:34.960 How should we be making right-wing art?

01:00:39.100 How should we be cultivating it?

01:00:40.280 Is there,

01:00:40.620 is there a problem with the art on,

01:00:43.040 on the right?

01:00:43.660 Uh,

01:00:44.060 can,

01:00:44.300 can it be addressed by,

01:00:45.980 you know,

01:00:46.460 institutions?

01:00:47.540 Uh,

01:00:47.820 you know,

01:00:48.060 what,

01:00:48.280 what,

01:00:48.480 what do you think about this whole debate?

01:00:50.800 Um,

01:00:51.280 I don't think there's a problem with art on the,

01:00:53.800 on the right.

01:00:54.340 I think there,

01:00:55.060 there probably is less.

01:00:56.700 There probably are fewer artists that are right-wing making art than there are

01:01:02.980 artists that would be left-leaning.

01:01:04.960 Um,

01:01:05.440 but that doesn't mean that they're not out there.

01:01:07.680 Um,

01:01:08.400 I think that the right generally tends to,

01:01:15.040 they tend not to,

01:01:16.560 to see things that are outside of what is normally considered right-wing as valid,

01:01:22.940 right?

01:01:23.120 Like,

01:01:23.280 so it's easy to get a country singer to sing country songs about,

01:01:28.900 you know,

01:01:29.180 two right-leaning people.

01:01:30.540 That's easy to do getting right.

01:01:32.920 Or,

01:01:33.260 and it's easy to get right-leaning people to listen to country music,

01:01:35.600 getting a band like all that remains to play,

01:01:38.980 uh,

01:01:39.440 you know,

01:01:39.660 to get attention from right-leaning outlets is much harder because,

01:01:43.460 you know,

01:01:44.140 people don't associate heavy metal with the right.

01:01:46.700 I think that partially you've got a situation of,

01:01:49.920 of just the stigma.

01:01:50.960 If you hear something that isn't traditionally thought of as being created by someone on

01:01:56.720 the right,

01:01:57.140 people assume that it's not.

01:01:59.440 Yeah.

01:01:59.960 I mean,

01:02:00.140 David has had,

01:02:01.000 you know,

01:02:01.260 David has had Alex Jones's politics before Alex Jones did.

01:02:06.440 And he,

01:02:06.820 you know,

01:02:07.020 you don't see him getting invited to the TP USA,

01:02:10.480 uh,

01:02:11.380 halftime,

01:02:12.260 you know,

01:02:12.400 exactly.

01:02:13.320 And,

01:02:13.580 and,

01:02:13.820 and,

01:02:14.200 you know,

01:02:15.460 if you,

01:02:17.360 I feel like people on the right,

01:02:19.600 they really want it to be,

01:02:21.640 they,

01:02:22.120 if they,

01:02:22.620 if you're going to be welcome in right-leaning spaces,

01:02:26.280 like political spaces,

01:02:28.200 they need you to feed them.

01:02:32.080 And it needs to be over the top,

01:02:34.060 right?

01:02:34.260 Like Ted Nugent and,

01:02:36.700 and Kid Rock,

01:02:38.020 they're very over the top right-wingers,

01:02:40.500 right?

01:02:40.720 And someone who's a little more subdued about their right-leaning perspective,

01:02:44.600 it's almost like that's not enough for the right.

01:02:48.160 Like they really want you to feed them the right-wing sandwich.

01:02:51.500 It's got to have,

01:02:52.400 you know,

01:02:52.620 it better be draped in the flag and,

01:02:54.580 and subtlety is not okay.

01:02:56.660 It's got to be overt and stuff.

01:02:58.960 Um,

01:02:59.580 and I think if they were a little more comfortable with,

01:03:02.160 with,

01:03:03.040 uh,

01:03:03.760 subtle stuff,

01:03:04.540 you probably,

01:03:05.380 they probably get more play.

01:03:06.160 Like there's a band called,

01:03:06.920 uh,

01:03:07.920 uh,

01:03:08.180 skillet.

01:03:08.840 And I think the,

01:03:10.400 the singer is definitely a Christian.

01:03:12.080 There's people.

01:03:12.820 Oh yeah.

01:03:13.460 Dude,

01:03:13.860 I was watching skillet,

01:03:14.960 uh,

01:03:15.240 at,

01:03:15.880 uh,

01:03:16.060 Christian music concerts when I was like 19,

01:03:18.340 man.

01:03:18.940 Yeah.

01:03:19.140 Yeah.

01:03:19.300 And they're in their,

01:03:20.220 they're a huge band.

01:03:21.080 Right.

01:03:21.320 Like,

01:03:21.640 but I still think that like that,

01:03:23.860 that would have been something that,

01:03:25.080 you know,

01:03:25.840 TP USA could have,

01:03:27.240 could have called them up and they might've been able to do something with

01:03:30.200 them.

01:03:30.420 You know,

01:03:30.780 they are definitely right-leaning.

01:03:32.920 Um,

01:03:33.280 so I think that there's a disconnect in,

01:03:35.160 in the people.

01:03:36.480 And as much as skillet is right-leaning,

01:03:39.320 like they play all the radio festivals and they don't come across to your

01:03:45.420 average music listener as preachy or as a right-leaning band,

01:03:50.860 right?

01:03:51.020 They really do make it subtle,

01:03:53.060 even though they're those,

01:03:54.320 those themes and those messages are in their stuff.

01:03:56.760 They really do kind of make it subtle when they're in the,

01:03:59.940 the radio rock kind of arena,

01:04:01.780 they make it something that it doesn't,

01:04:03.700 it's not super shoved down your throat,

01:04:06.640 you know?

01:04:06.960 And I think that the right wing,

01:04:09.200 like right leaning outlets would do well to be like,

01:04:12.160 all right,

01:04:12.380 they don't have to shove it down our throat to be something that's

01:04:15.600 acceptable musically,

01:04:16.600 you know?

01:04:17.140 I mean,

01:04:17.500 you know,

01:04:18.000 demon hunter is a very successful,

01:04:19.960 you know,

01:04:20.680 band with lots of Christian themes,

01:04:22.500 you know,

01:04:22.700 that kind of thing.

01:04:23.380 Uh,

01:04:23.580 war of ages is one of my favorite metal core bands.

01:04:25.820 Also very Christian.

01:04:27.240 Their last,

01:04:27.740 uh,

01:04:27.940 their entire last album was about the book of revelation.

01:04:30.600 Uh,

01:04:31.040 you know,

01:04:31.320 so I just do think there's a lot of,

01:04:33.320 I think there's a lot of possibility there.

01:04:35.160 And I think you're right.

01:04:35.900 That ultimately a lot of,

01:04:37.820 you know,

01:04:38.060 a lot of people who are asking where is the right wing art?

01:04:41.780 They're not looking where the right wing art is.

01:04:44.220 It's,

01:04:44.480 it's there,

01:04:45.160 it's being written,

01:04:46.000 it's being done,

01:04:47.200 but it's being done.

01:04:48.080 It's not being done in the genre you want.

01:04:50.360 And so rather than saying I'm there to support right wing artists,

01:04:54.080 it's like,

01:04:54.460 no,

01:04:54.660 I want the music or TV or movie,

01:04:57.840 whatever that I already watch to become right way.

01:05:00.780 I'm not going out of my way to support these things.

01:05:02.440 I want them to appear in the things I'm already comfortable with.

01:05:05.340 Yeah.

01:05:05.700 And I think that there,

01:05:06.620 there is an aspect of,

01:05:07.860 you know,

01:05:08.100 if you're a right winger,

01:05:09.280 you,

01:05:09.620 you try not to be too preachy very frequently because there is,

01:05:14.660 because there isn't a place where the right wing will say,

01:05:17.240 you're a right leaning artist.

01:05:18.540 And we're going to make sure that you're successful.

01:05:20.100 And,

01:05:20.480 and we're going to,

01:05:21.200 you know,

01:05:21.500 we're going to promote your,

01:05:22.480 your product.

01:05:23.120 And we're going to make sure that people go out and buy our product and

01:05:24.980 make sure that,

01:05:25.740 that you're successful,

01:05:26.880 monetarily because there isn't that space.

01:05:30.700 They kind of like,

01:05:31.840 they have to live in the left wing space,

01:05:33.760 which kind of makes them,

01:05:34.880 even if they talk about the stuff that,

01:05:36.940 that means something to them,

01:05:38.060 they're there to survive in that space.

01:05:40.540 You kind of have to keep your head down about it.

01:05:42.540 Like if you're too overtly right leaning,

01:05:46.280 then there's going to be,

01:05:47.660 someone's going to notice and they're going to say,

01:05:48.860 don't put them on that tour.

01:05:50.020 Don't put them on that show.

01:05:51.440 Don't give them that slot.

01:05:52.760 Don't do this.

01:05:53.400 Don't,

01:05:53.600 you know,

01:05:53.820 there's all kinds of,

01:05:55.100 of barriers from left leaning people that,

01:05:59.900 that don't happen if you're,

01:06:01.560 if you're overtly left leaning.

01:06:02.760 So if you're,

01:06:03.320 if you're an artist and you're making art,

01:06:06.180 that's,

01:06:06.640 that's ostensibly right wing,

01:06:08.240 you're still doing it kind of quietly kind of keeping your head down

01:06:11.960 because if you're too overt about it,

01:06:14.100 then you're not going to be welcome in places,

01:06:16.800 you know,

01:06:17.060 out there,

01:06:18.060 there are people,

01:06:19.000 I'm going to,

01:06:19.280 I'm not going to get named names,

01:06:20.500 but there are streaming services and there are people,

01:06:22.580 people that for a little while wouldn't talk about all that remains

01:06:25.420 because of the fact that I'm such a right wing guy,

01:06:27.840 right?

01:06:28.060 Like that's just the way that it is.

01:06:29.920 And that's kind of what people in the music industry,

01:06:34.740 at least the music industry are dealing with.

01:06:36.360 And I imagine it's,

01:06:37.080 it's like that for other places.

01:06:38.220 So if the right wing wants more right wing art and they,

01:06:41.260 you know,

01:06:41.520 they have to find the right wingers and go out of there.

01:06:45.240 Like they just like when it comes to boycotts,

01:06:47.180 right?

01:06:47.300 Like everybody says like,

01:06:48.840 Oh,

01:06:49.060 you know,

01:06:49.280 we're going to boycott this,

01:06:50.360 but the right wing barely can get it together to boycott something.

01:06:53.260 The left,

01:06:53.820 they go out and they boycott and that's it.

01:06:55.500 They're everybody on the left boycotts the same kind of thing with,

01:06:58.640 with music.

01:06:59.300 Like if you're looking for right wing art,

01:07:01.840 then you should go ahead and do what you can to promote right wing art.

01:07:05.540 Every time you can find it because you need a space for these people to make art

01:07:09.620 where they can do it and make a living and actually,

01:07:12.660 you know,

01:07:13.380 survive or else you're forcing them to kind of keep their head down and,

01:07:16.920 and play in the left sandbox because that's the only way they can continue to

01:07:21.360 make the art they make.

01:07:22.780 Yeah.

01:07:23.220 You,

01:07:23.380 you have to have that patronage safety net.

01:07:25.420 You have to know that if you step out there and you are explicit,

01:07:28.460 that there is a living for you,

01:07:29.820 a future for you.

01:07:30.580 And if you don't provide that,

01:07:31.880 then yeah,

01:07:32.240 people are just going to default to the place where they can exist.

01:07:35.420 You can't ask them not to do that and,

01:07:38.200 and,

01:07:38.540 and be able to be functioning artists.

01:07:40.400 And I think,

01:07:41.240 so I think it is both the creativity,

01:07:42.700 but it is,

01:07:43.480 but it is in the audience,

01:07:44.580 but it is also the patronage aspect.

01:07:46.080 I think all,

01:07:47.060 all three of these are absolutely critical.

01:07:48.860 Well,

01:07:49.220 Phil,

01:07:49.400 it's been a pleasure speaking with you again,

01:07:51.760 guys.

01:07:52.040 Sorry,

01:07:52.420 we aren't live,

01:07:53.100 so we can't answer any questions today,

01:07:54.780 but if people want to find you,

01:07:56.600 Phil,

01:07:56.880 where should they be looking?

01:07:58.360 I am Phil that remains on Twix.

01:08:00.420 The band is all that remains.

01:08:01.420 You can check us out at,

01:08:02.100 all that remains online.com.

01:08:05.300 The,

01:08:05.980 you can check out the music on Apple music,

01:08:07.900 Amazon music,

01:08:08.520 Pandora,

01:08:08.840 Spotify,

01:08:09.240 YouTube,

01:08:09.520 and Deezer.

01:08:10.260 And we are going on tour this April.

01:08:12.140 We're going out with born of Osiris and dead eyes.

01:08:14.960 You can get your tickets again at all that remains online.com.

01:08:18.860 Fantastic.

01:08:19.320 If for some reason you have not listened to all that remains,

01:08:21.260 you absolutely should fall of ideals to me is like,

01:08:24.020 honestly,

01:08:24.420 it's up there with like painkiller and rust and peace.

01:08:26.960 And like these exemplars of,

01:08:28.780 of their given genres.

01:08:29.960 Cause when every time a single song from that album comes on,

01:08:33.500 I'm like,

01:08:33.820 well,

01:08:33.980 I know what I'm doing for the next hour.

01:08:35.420 I'm listening to the reps of a fall of ideals.

01:08:38.520 So,

01:08:38.700 and of course,

01:08:40.860 if it's your first time watching this channel,

01:08:42.860 guys,

01:08:43.100 make sure you subscribe on YouTube,

01:08:44.780 bell notifications,

01:08:45.480 all that stuff.

01:08:46.240 If you want to get the broadcast as podcast,

01:08:48.500 you need to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform.

01:08:51.100 Thanks again for listening guys.

01:08:52.160 And as always,

01:08:52.780 I'll talk to you next time.

01:08:54.040 Bye.

01:08:56.300 Bye.

01:08:56.820 Bye.

01:08:56.960 Bye.

01:08:57.620 Bye.

01:08:59.100 Bye.

01:09:03.640 Bye.

01:09:07.580 Bye.

01:09:11.100 Bye.

01:09:11.680 Bye.

01:09:22.500 Bye.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - February 27, 2026

When Politics Meets Metal ｜ Guest： Phil Labonte ｜ 2⧸27⧸26

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