The Auron MacIntyre Show - Why the West Is Being Replaced ｜ Guest： Peter Brimelow ｜ 6⧸22⧸26

00:00:00.000 Hey, everybody. How's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon. I've got a great

00:00:04.000 stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy. Before we get started,

00:00:08.080 I just want to remind you that one of the ways we keep the lights on around here is,

00:00:11.940 of course, subscriptions to Blaze TV. So if you want to support my show and you want to

00:00:15.780 get access to all your favorite Blaze TV hosts, the documentaries, the behind-the-scenes footage,

00:00:20.320 you need to head to blazetv.com slash Oren to get $20 off your subscription today. That's

00:00:25.980 blazetv.com slash Oren to get $20 off today. Well, as many of you know, immigration is one of the

00:00:34.160 most important issues in the world to me. I think it is critical for the future of the nation. And

00:00:39.340 it's easy to look at everything that has happened so far and say, why am I not getting everything I

00:00:44.340 wanted? How have we not gotten where we need to be right now? Why are we not getting 50 million

00:00:48.620 mass deportations? But you have to remember that this has been a long, long battle. And the

00:00:54.200 victories that we've won in just the past few short years have been rather significant. People

00:00:59.260 who have been doing this for a very long time take, I think, a very much longer view on the

00:01:05.040 accomplishments that we have reached here. And I think it's good to speak with those people to

00:01:08.700 frame what we are doing and what we should expect. So joining me today is a man who has

00:01:13.340 written about immigration. He has books. He has articles. He has a foundation, VDR, that he founded

00:01:19.600 to try to address the issue of immigration.

00:01:22.820 Joining me today is Peter Brimelow.

00:01:24.260 Thank you so much for coming on, sir.

00:01:26.040 Thank you for having me on.

00:01:27.500 I appreciate it.

00:01:29.500 Absolutely.

00:01:30.220 Now, I think most people who watch this have some vague idea of who you are and what you've

00:01:36.200 done, but some may not.

00:01:37.980 And if they're hearing your voice, they might say, well, this doesn't sound like a man who

00:01:41.740 exactly hails from the American Southeasers.

00:01:44.640 So maybe you could talk a little bit about how you came to the United States and how

00:01:48.760 you became so concerned with immigration when you yourself have experienced immigration yeah

00:01:54.440 you're quite right order i can't i was born in the north of england actually ground zero for where

00:01:59.400 the all these all these rapes uh rape gangs were operating which a huge shock to me because when

00:02:05.120 i left england in 1970 we had no idea that this this was going on uh and i'm an identical twin

00:02:11.780 and we both decided that all was lost in england in the late 1960s so we we organized to go to the

00:02:18.740 business school to get to do an american mba and we went to stanford in 1970 and graduated in 72.

00:02:24.420 his case it actually took and he became a wall street professional uh lastly hedge fund advisor

00:02:29.860 but in my case it didn't take and i reverted back at this half world of financial journalism where

00:02:35.460 where i was for a long time uh and uh both in the us and and in canada but when you come to the us

00:02:43.300 on a fulbright award which is what we had you're supposed to go back to help your underdeveloped

00:02:47.620 country develop and i didn't want to go back to england so i went to canada instead and eventually

00:02:52.500 i was able to come back to us because rn hatch the scientist from utah was persuaded by paul

00:02:57.460 craig roberts who i'm sure you know uh to hire me to replace him when he left to go off the wall

00:03:04.420 street journal and so i was i was i was brought in as a distinguished on a special merit visa or

00:03:10.420 something and and i've been here ever since i worked for fortune i worked for barons and for

00:03:15.300 Fortune and for 16 years for Forbes magazine but I also work for National Review and then when I was

00:03:23.460 at which was I sort of moonlighted at National Review and in 1992 I wrote a 14,000 word cover

00:03:30.820 story called Time to Rethink Immigration which is sometimes credited with restarting the modern

00:03:37.300 immigration debate it had actually been absolutely quiescent silent since the 1965 act was passed

00:03:44.980 opening up the opening up the us borders to this what's turned out to be a new great way of

00:03:49.620 immigration coming in and uh one thing led to another and eventually buckley fired everybody

00:03:55.060 in national review who was responsible for this lot for the immigration uh reform line there was

00:04:00.020 a brief civil war in the in the conservative room which we lost in the wall street journal one

00:04:04.900 and buckley purge the magazine and uh so before the internet had come along so i went ahead and

00:04:09.700 founded vdare.com which is named a website which was named after the first um english child uh not

00:04:17.460 white child as they always say um born in the new world virginia dare born in the lost colony

00:04:24.340 who of course vanished subsequently vanished and we ran that that when i started it on christmas

00:04:29.620 received of 1999 and we did we write it until uh april into june or july of 2025 2024 uh when we

00:04:39.540 were just uh subpoenaed into into into suspension by letitia james well i think we're one of the

00:04:45.380 cardinal examples of uh of law affair i mean new york state is obviously completely uh jonathan

00:04:51.380 turley quoted the land that law forgot i mean these ridiculous and insane prosecutions of

00:04:56.260 president trump and letitia james the attorney general has embarked on but we're just a small

00:05:01.220 subset of that she just batted and batted without even having to charge us with anything she just

00:05:06.100 batted into us into suspension with these enormous costs of meeting these subpoena demands and

00:05:10.500 everything but the site is still there vdare.com you can see it and uh i've subsequently started

00:05:16.580 up um my own uh substat which is peter brimo.com where i continue to you know to talk about

00:05:22.580 immigration and also we recycle and comment on Vidar articles, which continue to be

00:05:28.100 germane. You know, these issues haven't gone away. In fact, they're getting worse and worse.

00:05:35.140 So there's so much to talk about there. And this is why I like talking about with people who have

00:05:40.260 been in the movement for so long, because there are so many of these battles that people have

00:05:44.180 entirely forgotten. There's all of this history. They think that the issue of immigration suddenly

00:05:49.800 arose with Donald Trump or something like that. And all credit the Trump administration for making

00:05:54.300 it such an important piece of what they're doing. But obviously, as you say, there have been people

00:05:59.020 in the trenches for decades battling through this. And when we see the purge of people like

00:06:04.440 yourself with William F. Buckley, this shocks a lot of mainstream conservatives who grew up

00:06:09.560 thinking of Buckley as this lion of the right, ultimately holding back what the left was. So

00:06:16.160 I'm sure we'll get to the cancellation and everything else that's critical to that story.

00:06:20.360 But let's begin with your transition from a financial writer to someone who is primarily

00:06:26.720 known for the immigration debate. Because obviously, as you say, you're in the United

00:06:31.640 States on this prestigious award, highly recognized writing for some of the most

00:06:35.700 important magazines in the country in an area entirely unrelated, more or less, to what you

00:06:40.940 became famous for later on in life choosing to then entangle yourself in the immigration issue

00:06:46.820 again as someone who is an immigrant at some level that had to have been a big move that takes a lot

00:06:53.100 of courage because again that is already a rather untouchable subject at that time it's nowhere near

00:07:00.020 what it is today and you're moving from a place where you could have had a comfortable career a

00:07:04.560 very, you know, cushy and, you know, well thought of existence inside of the media and perhaps

00:07:12.140 academia. And instead, you're talking about, you know, the baby, basically the third rail

00:07:17.040 of American politics well before anyone else. What spurs you to make that choice?

00:07:23.620 It's what the Irish poet Yeats calls a lonely impulse of delight in his poem,

00:07:30.020 uh an irish airman foresees his death uh my position was you know nobody was writing about

00:07:34.900 this and nobody was writing about it from 65 until the early 90s there was there was almost

00:07:39.220 no coverage of immigration issue at all although the problems were very clear uh and uh nobody was

00:07:45.380 writing about it it was extremely dangerous to talk about how could i possibly resist

00:07:50.660 you know uh and also or and you know uh in the in the late in the 80s and 90s the wars general

00:07:58.100 would occasionally say things about how wonderful immigration was and they started running their

00:08:04.020 notorious editorial that shall be our open borders i think in the late 80s uh that it

00:08:10.580 was universally assumed even by people who were worried about immigration that it was economically

00:08:14.340 beneficial uh and maybe because of my background in financial journals i looked into it i discovered

00:08:20.820 that the technical literature that existed in uh among labor economists had long ago concluded

00:08:28.020 this great influx and it was huge um excuse me was of no benefit at all to native born

00:08:35.060 it did increase ggp but the great bulk of that was captured by the native by the immigrants

00:08:40.340 themselves in the form of wages and so on and it did have and this was really the issue a powerful

00:08:45.620 redistribution effect when i wrote my cover story in national review in 92 uh george borhas the

00:08:53.460 economist at harvard had calculated that shifted that they shifted something was shifting something

00:08:57.060 like two to three percent of gdp from labor to capital so it was big but by driving down wages

00:09:04.420 uh so it's enormously beneficial to the country club class it was one reason why why there was a

00:09:09.140 journal stuck with it and to the capitalists in general but but uh but it wasn't at all beneficial

00:09:13.620 to people and as nobody was saying that and yet it was clear in the in the in the technical

00:09:18.420 literature i said it with the results that we now see uh there was a civil war in the consortium but

00:09:25.060 as i say um we had we have still a b there because it's still up we have a a timeline on immigration

00:09:32.420 we call it the the second great war for immigration reform in in the 19th century immigration kicked

00:09:37.700 off in the 1880s and it took about uh 30 to 40 years before there was a reaction that cracked

00:09:44.180 down of course the cutoff of 1921 and 24. so we were predicting it's in a cutoff but by the end

00:09:50.740 of the 90s uh and that would have happened actually uh except for the uh peculiar behavior of the

00:09:56.820 republican elites and the neoconservatives uh who went went into hysterical overdrive to to to uh

00:10:04.020 prevent discussion you know there was a bill uh before congress to smith simpson bill which flowed

00:10:10.100 out of the uh uh a report that had been put together by um that black congresswoman in in

00:10:16.180 texas barbara jordan uh who's a liberal democrat but had questions about immigration and there was

00:10:21.540 a build-up that uh that um uh embodied most of her recommendations but it was just destroyed by

00:10:28.900 a hysterical campaign of lies and sabotage from from within the republican party and within that

00:10:34.980 when from the neo-conservatives and so on and so this this is a market that just didn't clear and

00:10:40.820 it was hard to get the debate the debate really didn't get going again really until george w

00:10:45.460 bush stupidly tried to run through amnesty that's when we really started to see readership

00:10:50.420 readership flooding back to flooding to be there and so on and of course amnesty was resisted was

00:10:55.620 it was stopped just by sheer grassroots resistance uh the entire apparatus of the party the entire

00:11:01.060 media media establishment were all in favor but they just weren't able to get it through

00:11:06.820 so there's an interesting dynamic here because as you point out immigration is terrible for the

00:11:12.660 the working class it's terrible for those that receive wages it drives them down all the benefits

00:11:18.340 accrue to other areas of the economy and so that would seem for as the democrats the left to be a

00:11:25.880 big issue with immigration and indeed it was for a long time in fact bernie sanders before he sold

00:11:31.100 his soul to the party you know said that open borders was a cook brothers scheme is a libertarian

00:11:36.360 right-wing scheme uh so you know that that was the that was the position of the party for a long

00:11:42.640 time now i understand how they flipped because obviously they basically just have completely

00:11:47.780 abandoned any kind of real economic uh you know uh leftism and ultimately now are just about race

00:11:54.400 it's about you know getting as many people who are not white into the country as possible being

00:11:58.100 white is evil you can understand how that story developed on the left i think the term of art is

00:12:03.300 gay race communism isn't it yes sir i see i see you've been seeing what the kids say on the

00:12:07.140 internet these days and you are absolutely correct yes the gay race communism is i believe the

00:12:11.720 technical nomenclature at this point on the internet but uh so i get where the gay race

00:12:16.520 communism comes from what i don't understand to some degree is how this message were messaging

00:12:22.120 work for conservatives because conservatives of course in theory would like to conserve the

00:12:27.580 ability of people to own houses and start families and all these things that are critical to produce

00:12:32.860 more conservatives to actually conserve what is left of the population beliefs traditions and

00:12:37.580 heritage of the nation and yet for some reason they were able to sell this idea that there was

00:12:45.180 some kind of market force that was critical with open borders that you know if you if you close

00:12:49.900 the borders then all of a sudden you were uh in some way embracing socialism and therefore we had

00:12:54.920 to let infinite flow of uh immigrants in because as you say the gdp is the key is it really just

00:13:01.240 that conservatives were tricked into believing this one economic marker is like the magical thing

00:13:06.920 that papered over the destruction of their culture because it's become clear i think to many now even

00:13:12.060 the hardest line uh kind of uh talk radio conservatives are like no obviously immigration

00:13:17.120 is a huge problem it's destroyed our our country and our culture but they still can't put their

00:13:21.320 finger on why with the economic arguments sufficient or do you think there was something

00:13:26.080 else going on in the messaging that allowed conservatives to kind of be fooled into the

00:13:30.260 idea that this level of immigration was acceptable that by the way is a huge difference on from when

00:13:35.460 i started to be there in 1999 to now i mean the average republican that you run into it is against

00:13:43.780 immigration that wasn't the case at all in in 2000 uh they just bought this uh this snake oil i think

00:13:50.900 there are a couple issues one is uh uh the malign influence of neoconcerative libertarian intellectuals

00:13:57.940 uh uh who who just basically won't listen to reason on this issue i spent a lot of time in

00:14:02.660 libertarian circles as a financial journalist basically because their analysis is very powerful

00:14:07.860 uh but i stopped using for example the cato institute i used to quote them all the time

00:14:12.260 when i was at forbes but stopped using them because i realized that when i started looking

00:14:15.540 at the immigration issue i realized they were crooks they just lie about what what's going on

00:14:19.860 so i realized i couldn't trust the numbers on anything um so so that that's one problem the the

00:14:25.300 the fact that um there is not now as there was um uh you know before the civil war and even

00:14:33.860 into the late 19th century a sort of uh christian intellectual class conservative intellectual

00:14:39.860 class uh the the uh the wall street was entirely taken over by nail conservatives specifically by

00:14:45.860 new york jews and and this just this brings a very different perspective uh into what they were

00:14:51.540 thinking about uh they considered lost the ability to think and buckley of course was complicit in

00:14:55.780 this because he was very excited when we first started writing about about immigration because

00:15:01.140 it gave us he he never really liked immigration but bill was not very interested in politics

00:15:05.860 actually so so he was willing to let it slide until we came up with these arguments and when

00:15:11.540 i say we i mean uh me and the then editor john solomon who was also english i know various other

00:15:17.540 people who came in to the magazine at that time like steve sailor uh but he wasn't willing to take

00:15:22.260 the heat from the party because bill was used to being lionized when he went to washington and and

00:15:27.940 uh the uh the the republican congress uh just didn't want to deal with the immigration issue

00:15:35.700 at all partly because it upset the donors i'm sorry the donors were all uh pro-immigration

00:15:44.100 for pure capitalistic reasons and partly because the the sheer power of this accusation of racism

00:15:50.660 uh can't be underestimated they were so terrified of being accused of being racist that being in

00:15:56.020 favor of immigration was was seen to be to be um you know a way a way of warding off that accusation

00:16:02.340 it's a question of ideological gemini they had a gemini over there the left had a gemini for the

00:16:07.460 ride and we were trying to stop it all right so you've already mentioned that there are a number

00:16:12.740 of forces pushing back against you and others at the magazine at the time. You obviously had

00:16:19.060 Buckley looking to purge several different people across a few years for a couple different reasons.

00:16:23.840 Immigration was certainly one of them. But yourself, Joe Sobrin was pushed out. Guys like

00:16:28.680 Steve Saylor, who had shown up. And then you had Derbyshire, who was also pushed out for his story

00:16:35.860 on kind of black and white relations. It seemed like the narrowing of opinion at National Review

00:16:40.480 was getting very severe which is interesting because it was such a formative magazine in

00:16:45.040 the conservative movement for a long time and now it's the butt of jokes you know now it's oh

00:16:49.540 national review came out with something obviously you should just believe the opposite but what was

00:16:54.260 the conservative case for whatever liberals want exactly right exactly and so what was this

00:17:01.020 transition i mean obviously at one point national review did have legs i mean james burnham was

00:17:06.400 helping right at this you know magazine like obviously it wasn't always a joke and it was

00:17:11.720 taken very seriously at the time you were there why was this purge occurring across so many issues

00:17:16.160 including immigration and how did we end up with a national review that now is basically impotent

00:17:20.580 well it's really quite a general it's a generational question a lot of the younger

00:17:27.200 people came in were just not as hard and battle toughened as the as the uh the older generation

00:17:33.080 was i mean because the people who originally led national review were to a substantial extent

00:17:37.800 extra skies so they've been they've been involved in really savage faction fighting all the lives

00:17:43.480 that wasn't really the case with the people who came in after reagan there was there was a there

00:17:48.440 was a it became possible to have a career a safe career within what we call conservative inc the

00:17:55.960 whole conjury of uh foundations and so on that developed on the hill and that was the personality

00:18:01.880 time that we that we found coming in um but the other reason the reason is that bill himself was

00:18:07.400 no damn good i mean he he basically i used to say that uh he'd obviously been taken over by

00:18:13.320 an alien from outer space before i before i got to know him and i met him in 1999 um

00:18:20.600 years ago by uh 1976 uh the the uh uh he was not interested in politics wasn't interested in new

00:18:29.000 issues he was solely interested in swanning about the world on his yacht and celebrity and

00:18:32.840 and being a celebrity and that was very important to me a very big ego

00:18:36.360 and i don't see any connection between the buckley that i knew uh uh and was ultimately betrayed by

00:18:43.240 uh and the buckley who ran against uh uh against john lindsay and really to a considerable extent

00:18:49.080 you know was a john the baptist for the conservative movement uh uh after after the the

00:18:54.280 disaster of go of go water so as i say i my conclusion was he'd been taken over by an alien

00:19:00.780 from outer space in those years but i think was it was actually uh drugs and alcohol is probably

00:19:05.660 what did it if you read his son's memoir of his parents death it's astonishing what bill was on

00:19:13.260 in terms of into uppers and downers and things sorry investing trading that isn't a personality

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00:19:47.380 Well, I think...

00:19:48.000 This is water, by the way.

00:19:49.320 Yeah, no problem.

00:19:51.420 Well, I'm on the coffee, so I'm doing something much more radical here. But the line that the Republican Party took between that time and Donald Trump was pretty consistent. It would talk about the need for some level of border restriction. We need legal immigration. We need something.

00:20:11.300 And so they would dangle this kind of bait of enforcement in front of the conservatives saying, oh, well, you know, we'll just get this amnesty program.

00:20:20.720 We'll just get this tweak here or there and then we'll close the border.

00:20:24.620 Then there will be the legalization process.

00:20:26.600 And over and over again, we saw this bait and switch where if it was even brought up as a real issue, immigration, it was mainly brought up as a, well, we fix the system by allowing basically all the people who are here into the country first, and then we'll go back and we'll seal the border, we'll protect it.

00:20:45.200 And this never happened. It was always bringing people in, giving them legal status, finding some way to get them on health care and benefits and all these economic carve outs that are provided by banks and the government to these illegal immigrants, but never the actual enforcement mechanism.

00:21:01.100 So when you start to see someone like Donald Trump dust off that playbook, start talking again about building the wall, where do you think that shift came?

00:21:12.200 Because he was, of course, seen as a crazy person by the left and most of the right, to be fair, at that time to be talking about the issue in this way.

00:21:21.280 I mean, when Donald Trump got in office, he literally said, we're doing a Muslim ban and eventually had to change the, you know, the language to make it more appealing and make and hope and maybe have some hope of making it through the legal system.

00:21:34.220 But this is a guy who's not pulling punches early on with his rhetoric. And that's a radical shift that I think a lot of people credit with moving everything in the Republican Party to the right on this issue.

00:21:46.940 All of a sudden, it was like the ghost of Pat Buchanan had come in and was telling us how we should be running our border security.

00:21:54.680 That was something that most people did not expect.

00:21:56.220 What do you think happened in that gap from the time where you were purged from National Review to a time where Donald Trump is openly talking about banning entire categories of religious immigration and building a wall on the border?

00:22:08.980 I think it was a bit like shaking a champagne bottle, you know, and the pressure built up enormously inside the bottle.

00:22:16.120 I mean, at a grassroots level, people were really fed up.

00:22:18.900 And that's one reason why my website was so successful.

00:22:21.480 It was all done by word of mouth.

00:22:23.200 We were excluded from any kind of reference in the mainstream media,

00:22:27.500 particularly after we were denounced by the Southern Poverty Law Center

00:22:30.600 as a hate group.

00:22:32.100 But what Trump did is he came along and uncalked the bottle.

00:22:37.020 If you look at what he said in his famous speech coming down the escalator,

00:22:42.240 he didn't say that much, actually.

00:22:45.100 he just dared to criticize Mexican illegal immigration and of course you have to remember

00:22:50.320 at that time it's hard to remember now but Jeb Bush was running on amnesty he actually thought

00:22:54.240 advocating amnesty was going to be popular he said illegal immigration was an act of love

00:22:58.620 and it just released all these pressures Trump didn't have to Trump who was as far as I can see

00:23:03.080 is purely instinctive he's purely visceral the way he goes about things he's not sitting around

00:23:08.060 I mean Ann Calder is often credited with getting on board on the immigration issue and he did

00:23:14.140 apparently ask for a copy of her book uh this is a thing that plutocrats do you know i've found

00:23:21.360 they they don't want to actually go and buy a book they'll just ask the author for a copy of

00:23:24.720 the book uh and and of course that is a brilliant book and and in many ways definitive but but i've

00:23:32.300 not been around these people my entire professional life they don't read books

00:23:35.060 maybe he weighed it you know and it was enough to get him started on it and you can see this

00:23:41.820 the way he blunders into issues he just blundered into this muslim bank he just asked a very

00:23:45.560 reasonable question why are these why are we letting these mussels in when they keep killing

00:23:48.800 people so he asked the question and of course the world went apeshit so so he concludes there's

00:23:53.700 something going on there now uh behind that there is now and there was also in the first trump

00:23:59.300 administration there's some significant intelligence to rest directing what they're doing because a

00:24:04.480 great deal of what they're doing they're not unfortunately passing statutes for anything

00:24:07.800 But they are trying to tighten up. They are tying up through regulation, regulatory changes, administrative changes.

00:24:15.000 Somebody knows the system. I presume it's Stephen Miller.

00:24:18.180 But there are other people in there as well who were I mean, they've actually so significantly reduced legal immigration just through administrative measures, making it more difficult to apply and so on.

00:24:27.800 It's not pretty, but it is working for now.

00:24:30.120 Well, and that's what I wanted to ask you next, because obviously, whatever as much of a leap it was to go from basically, well, maybe we'll have some kind of enforcement at some point to Donald Trump saying, no, ban on Muslims, wall at the border, the whole nine yards.

00:24:46.580 then we went to we stepped up a whole nother degree because when trump obviously lost to

00:24:54.120 joe biden lots we can say about the circumstances about that but when he came back he came back with

00:24:59.680 a vengeance and all of a sudden it wasn't just we need a wall it was we need mass deportations

00:25:04.700 which were not on the table in 2016 people again forget this he was not talking about mass

00:25:09.840 deportations in 2016 and we also saw the shift from illegal immigration being the only issue on

00:25:16.400 the table to legal immigration suddenly being attacked now that is huge because the entire

00:25:21.980 conservative paradigm has been as long as it's legal that's the only question did you do the

00:25:28.280 paperwork if you've got the paperwork you're an american and now if you say if you have the

00:25:33.840 paperwork you're an american they'll laugh at you like mainstream conservatives will mock you for

00:25:39.460 having that understanding of american citizenship as you say the trump administration however people

00:25:44.980 feel about foreign policy has been fantastic on going after these loopholes these procedural

00:25:50.520 issues reducing the number of refugees coming in people coming on hb1 h1bs and other visas

00:25:56.960 they have been very very good at attacking these uh these uh legal ways for people to come into

00:26:03.860 the country. And that is a massive sea change because not only does this create the moment

00:26:09.280 where we get an attack on legal immigration, which in many ways is just as deleterious to

00:26:15.840 the population as illegal immigration, but it also opens up the question, what is an American?

00:26:21.820 Which was a question that was really, really off limits just a few years ago. Because if we're

00:26:26.660 talking about why someone should be here and the answer is not, well, because they're here legally,

00:26:30.440 then there's something beyond the legality that makes us Americans there's something beyond

00:26:35.100 just that paperwork just that abstract frame of law that make us Americans and that I think

00:26:41.100 has really set things on fire when it comes to the debate I mean it's very affecting for me

00:26:46.880 as a British American these this speech that Trump gave when King Charles who is completely

00:26:52.440 worthless and should be it should be deposed but when Charles came and King Charles came over

00:26:57.320 He gives this speech about, Trump gives this speech, which was obviously written by somebody saying, you know, America existed before the Declaration of Independence.

00:27:05.680 The culture was here. And to a large extent, of course, it is in fact a British culture, which was the point I was making when I chose Virginia Dare to be the name of V-Dare, a symbol of V-Dare.

00:27:19.920 That's the point Russell Kirk made in his book, America's British Culture.

00:27:24.540 It is a culture.

00:27:25.780 And it's not just a soft culture, but it's a hard culture in the sense of legal systems and so on.

00:27:32.760 And, you know, they had self-government in the U.S. for well over a century before the Declaration of Independence.

00:27:41.160 So, you know, that's something which I think Trump is surfacing.

00:27:46.020 And, again, it seems to be at a purely visceral level.

00:27:49.920 And when confronted on it, he will often back down or get his lines wrong and all this kind of thing.

00:27:54.680 It must drive Stephen Miller absolutely crazy.

00:27:58.340 But on the other hand, he's the only Trump we've got.

00:28:02.520 Yeah, the beautiful thing about Trump is he is non-ideological, which means that he is not locked into any particular frame.

00:28:09.320 Now, that can be dangerous for people because that means he's also going to go off the reservation all the time.

00:28:13.280 But you have to understand that's just baked into what Trump is.

00:28:17.020 If he was adhering to an ideology, we wouldn't be where we are now.

00:28:20.800 He would have been entirely locked into some aspect of the Washington machine.

00:28:24.240 So you have to take the good with the bad on that one.

00:28:26.600 That's just part of the chaos that makes Trump effective against the media.

00:28:32.160 But that said, this radical change of being able to discuss what an American is has oddly moved to other places like your native England.

00:28:42.920 It's very strange when people say, what is an Englishman?

00:28:47.640 Because the reason we're told you can't know what an American is, is because we're a new world nation.

00:28:52.280 We are a propositional nation.

00:28:54.220 We are a collection of ideas and principles that's so different from the way that European nations were founded.

00:29:00.700 But obviously, you cannot say that about England.

00:29:03.160 England is the home of the English.

00:29:05.800 That's where they come from.

00:29:08.480 So there's no argument about colonization, old world versus new world.

00:29:12.220 there's no idea of a propositional england and yet that seems to be they have imported them

00:29:17.480 i well yes that's exactly where i was going how did that happen how did how did that story that

00:29:24.620 was born in america even in america relatively recently this was not the way that americans

00:29:30.180 understood themselves a hundred years ago but how did that story make its way into england and so

00:29:35.260 quickly revolutionize that country and so many other european countries i think it was one point

00:29:41.000 is that the anglosphere really is a cultural unity for example the british when the british

00:29:46.120 police and so on were taking a knee for george floyd and all this kind of thing they had nothing

00:29:49.800 whatever to do with george floyd but there was still and i don't know if you've read mark collett

00:29:54.680 who's a formidable journalist uh whatever else you can say about him had done a discussion of the uh

00:30:01.320 the the behavior of the hampshire police after george floyd uh when they completely restructured

00:30:06.760 their internal or their internal directives to reflect equity rather than they weren't

00:30:11.720 colorblind anymore there's dei as we stretch on dei lines this is the area where of course uh

00:30:17.320 this poor paul this poor nowak steve noah what was his name steam was it was was let die because he

00:30:23.080 was being accused of being a racist and that stems right from the director that these uh police

00:30:29.160 officers are working under well they have to pay more attention to uh the color the colored people

00:30:34.120 and the colors and then to the whites because to do anything else it's uh you know it's not

00:30:39.560 equitable uh so that's one reason that it's it's uh uh uh you know it's just we just caught the

00:30:47.080 cold from the us uh in england but the other reason is you know that they have an an anti-national

00:30:52.600 an anti-national elite uh and uh that i guess that's the perception that we had in in 1967

00:31:00.280 when we decided to leave england before in fact we went to college in england uh there was

00:31:05.080 something profoundly wrong about the people running the country and they didn't like the

00:31:08.920 country uh in other words we could see this this is not going to end with just dismantling the

00:31:14.120 empire i was born in the india became independent so my entire uh youth was taken up with the british

00:31:20.600 retreat from empire which is extraordinarily depressing and to go through one of the reasons

00:31:25.640 why i really like trump talking about annexing greenland and stuff at least it's forward moving

00:31:30.280 you know yeah the the the idea that you can do things is a very important one to get home to

00:31:36.360 people but it was obvious that the the british elite really didn't like it really didn't like

00:31:41.080 it's it's uh working class and and it's in this nation and wanted to it was more in electing a

00:31:47.880 new one and and there's something very deep about that which i really have to i i'm still thinking

00:31:53.880 about but all and i think it is combined frankly with with um paul gotfrey did an article for me

00:31:59.960 20 years ago saying america's problem was decadent protestantism and yeah when you look

00:32:05.320 at the protestant churches i'm an episcopal i'm exceptionally bitter dispossessed episcopalian

00:32:10.600 my children have been brought up catholic because i i have no lydia's a catholic and i have no

00:32:15.000 i have nothing to offer them uh when you look at the collapse of the of the mainline churches

00:32:20.440 you have to think there's something i'm not going to say it's demonic but if

00:32:24.920 if it's not not demonic it's pathological yeah i think the the death of henry novak has awakened

00:32:32.680 so many people to how insane uh england has gotten and you're of course correct that

00:32:38.600 there seems england seems to have caught this from the united states in a way i don't know

00:32:44.520 what you think about this but but do you feel like maybe america is constantinople to england's

00:32:49.960 Rome, like we see the shift in

00:32:52.160 kind of the imperial seat

00:32:54.120 but the empire still remains connected

00:32:56.140 in a way

00:32:56.660 and we have to point

00:33:00.120 out that the Byzantine

00:33:02.000 empire lasted for another thousand years after

00:33:04.000 Rome fell, so that's kind of a good sign

00:33:06.220 yeah

00:33:07.700 well and this is a

00:33:09.540 but this does make a fascinating dynamic

00:33:11.540 because as you point out there, at some

00:33:13.840 extent, the fact that the English

00:33:15.880 empire became what it became seems

00:33:17.800 to have separated the elites

00:33:19.640 from the identity of the culture and the people

00:33:22.680 and the heritage as a distinct thing.

00:33:25.220 At the same time, we both, I think, recognize

00:33:27.900 that any culture that's not expanding is dying.

00:33:30.480 And so that's why when you see Trump talking about Greenland,

00:33:33.060 well, at least he's reaching for something, right?

00:33:35.420 There's something aspirational there.

00:33:37.200 And so we're caught in a bit of a...

00:33:39.140 He's reconstituting the League of the Golden Circle, you know?

00:33:42.020 That's right.

00:33:43.000 The idea to conquer the whole of the Caribbean coast,

00:33:45.880 or the areas, you know, getting Venezuela under control.

00:33:50.680 Don't get me started as a Flirtian who would be, you know,

00:33:53.760 well-situated inside that empire.

00:33:56.220 Don't get me started.

00:33:57.480 But where did that come from?

00:33:59.520 I mean, how did this come, you know,

00:34:01.860 what gave him the idea of interest in Greenland?

00:34:03.460 I mean, he is a real estate developer, but even so, I mean, it baffles me.

00:34:06.780 Everybody says he doesn't read online, but these ideas,

00:34:09.820 he's certainly not getting these ideas from Fox News.

00:34:12.340 But the interesting tension between these two situations seems to be that we recognize at some level that empire or imperial ambitions are healthy for society, the desire to expand, the desire to exert influence.

00:34:26.520 But we also recognize that they seem to alienate the elites from the good of the people, which, again, if we want to look at the Roman Empire, there's a thousand examples as to how the ancient city was left behind by the Roman Empire itself to the point where Roman emperors didn't even bother going back to the ancient city by the time the empire was at its end.

00:34:47.820 And so how do we address that tension where we recognize that empire is at some level healthy for nations, but the other side can completely separate the elite from the good of the people and be deleterious?

00:35:01.160 Is there a proper balance? Is this just a life cycle of civilizations that's unavoidable? Is there something that we can do? Or do you have any thoughts?

00:35:08.980 I know it's a kind of off the wall question, but it just piqued my interest that we kind of ran into this dichotomy, which I think is real, but is challenging.

00:35:17.020 you know enoch paul gave a great speech in the 1950s to the saint george society of england

00:35:24.140 and he gave this uh he drew this analogy he said when the athenians returned uh after the the battle

00:35:30.860 of salamis and after they'd driven the portions out the push had been driven out they found athens

00:35:36.460 in ashes but amid the ashes there was the sacred olive tree growing up and and he said that although

00:35:44.380 he said those of us the empire has vanished he said which he hadn't done at that point completely

00:35:49.100 but he said it's shocking to those who saw it as it's anything of course was uh served in indian

00:35:54.300 in the second world war but we have to recognize that it's gone and we have to you know as lincoln

00:35:59.980 said that you know as that case is new we have to think in here and what he said that the point is

00:36:04.380 there's a sacred olive tree the stock the national stock you don't know what it's going to do next

00:36:09.180 but it has to be preserved and and and uh i think that's true uh for what i call

00:36:15.500 what we call the historic american nation which is the america that had evolved by 1965

00:36:21.260 uh uh you know when it was well on the way to assimilated that the immigrants would come in

00:36:27.500 uh in the first week 1980 1920 great way with a couple of notable exceptions

00:36:33.260 well it was well on the way to to assimilate with the exception of blacks particularly of course

00:36:37.820 because then they have never before it's simulated and and the danger of the immigrant flow that we

00:36:43.500 see now since 1965 in the us is it brings the fabric of the nation uh into question uh and

00:36:50.060 curious i've actually talked to paul about this uh in in his in his later years he was um

00:36:56.860 i i i he had a huge influence on me but he was unfortunately very anti-american because

00:37:01.820 i'm afraid he thought the americans had been instrumental in destroying the british empire

00:37:06.060 and he hadn't forgiven him for it.

00:37:09.240 I've gotten over that.

00:37:10.900 Anyway, he said that's the question.

00:37:12.400 It's the fabric of the nation.

00:37:14.160 What are you going to do about the fabric of the nation?

00:37:16.120 That, of course, is the real threat that's posed

00:37:17.720 by these essentially unassimable inflows

00:37:20.600 that are coming in now.

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00:37:50.000 Well, I think when a lot of people look at England at this stage, they wonder if there is enough desire to reclaim the nation at this point.

00:37:59.140 It was, I think, a question up until Henry Novak's killing, but I think the response shows us that there is quite a bit of fight left in the average Englishman, that that echoes in there.

00:38:11.500 Do you think that this is ultimately something that England will be able to overcome, or will the globalist forces involved be too much for the people to rally against it?

00:38:21.340 i have more faith in the us uh but i must say you know you and i were both at the meeting where we

00:38:26.940 talked to people who were involved with restore and then most obviously very very disappointed

00:38:32.220 by this uh this uh violation results in in that on last last tuesday whenever it was well they

00:38:39.340 shouldn't be because if you look at what happened there that was a seat where the labor labor

00:38:43.020 regularly it's very clear i was actually uh my family comes from that that constituency

00:38:50.380 originally uh it's only about 20 miles from where i latterly lived um that's a seat which

00:38:56.620 regularly voted 60 65 for labor so it's not clear to me that burnham's result is actually all that

00:39:01.740 good it's been celebrated by the british media in the same way that kamala harris's coronation which

00:39:05.980 i was just reading your account of by the way in your book it was celebrated but they tried to

00:39:10.460 forget that over american americans but it wasn't successful the other thing is that for um so so

00:39:16.860 reformed it very well and and actually restored it very well to save its deposit from starting

00:39:21.580 standing uh standing starting four months it was extraordinary so i just put up on substat last

00:39:27.260 night a comment from a woman called helen lewis in the atlantic she's one of these uh uh british

00:39:33.580 media aristocrats but she said that uh first for reform to get this kind of a vote uh save

00:39:39.660 its deposit seven percent i think indicate in a constituency in that kind of constituency when

00:39:44.460 there was already an anti-immigration party standing speaks to a deep well of what she

00:39:48.860 cried i forget it was xenophobia and racism or something you know in other words aka patriotism

00:39:54.060 uh in in this in this community so so i you know british politics has evolved a lot further than

00:40:01.020 that than i i i sort of given up hoping it's evolved a lot further than uh than i would

00:40:06.780 as of course as american politics as you say they say the way the immigration issue is so widely

00:40:11.980 understood now uh uh uh on the right that's a big enormous change from from from 25 years ago

00:40:20.700 well with this big change becomes uh or comes the you know kind of an awareness of the left

00:40:26.620 of where they're at i think the democrats are fully aware that if there wasn't for this

00:40:31.020 a mass of immigration on a regular basis, they would not be able to win elections in the United

00:40:36.420 States. I think they're perfectly aware that demographic transformation of the United States

00:40:39.900 is critical for them retaining power. And they've been pretty clear about that, even though they'll

00:40:44.480 call you a conspiracy theorist when you quote their own words to them on this. But I think

00:40:49.600 you're in a moment, as soon as Trump gets elected in a second term, where he basically has declared

00:40:54.060 war on the establishment. And he has X amount of time to get as much done when it comes to

00:41:00.460 immigration as possible, because when the Democrats come back into power, if they ever

00:41:04.360 come back into power, let's hope that's never the case. But if that is the case, which it often is

00:41:09.680 in our system, they can undo anything that Trump has done with the stroke of a pen because the

00:41:14.240 Republican Congress has basically completely ignored Trump when it comes to getting any of

00:41:18.420 these priorities done outside of a little funding for ICE. And so it was really up to the Trump

00:41:23.260 administration to get as many of these people out as possible. Now, the closing of the border,

00:41:29.060 i think has been a great success that is the success story of the trump administration

00:41:32.620 and there's no small amount of credit that is due when you had a 8 10 million plus flow coming in

00:41:40.520 under joe biden to have that shut off like that's a huge deal however if you can't get at least 8

00:41:46.460 to 10 million out in the same time that joe biden get 8 to 10 million in then you're obviously on a

00:41:52.280 losing trajectory because that means that every time you elect a republican they are never bailing

00:41:57.360 as much water out of the boat as the Democrats added during their term. And every one of these

00:42:02.280 people, because we're probably not getting a good ruling on birthright citizenship in the 14th

00:42:05.760 amendment, becomes an eligible voter over time, which is far more likely to vote for the Democrats

00:42:11.500 and ensure a continued open borders outcome. So my question to you is as great as the Trump

00:42:18.040 administration has been on immigration, what do you feel about the trajectory of that success when

00:42:23.880 it comes to deportations, because my worry is that even if somehow we get a J.D. Vance in

00:42:30.480 2028 after all of this, eventually at some point, if we do not get a true 20, 30 million plus

00:42:38.940 deportation regime going, then eventually the Democrats will come in, they will open the

00:42:45.900 borders wide open again, and we will get double that number of people in. If they can get 10

00:42:50.140 million people in in four years, you know, it wouldn't, it would be very easy for them to undo

00:42:54.380 everything the Trump administration has done and do much more. The issue isn't simply deportation,

00:43:00.500 though. It's self-deportation. If you look at the, we used to track, for 20 years, we used to track

00:43:07.040 the work for the immigrant workforce population. And it consistently rose until Trump came along.

00:43:14.720 And then it fell immediately as soon as he was elected, without him having done anything.

00:43:19.240 then it bounced back up again but by the time of uh by the by the time of the election he had

00:43:24.080 been falling for a long time even before covid and now it's falling it's been falling even more

00:43:28.000 dramatically in other words a lot of these uh these immigrants even even legal immigrants are

00:43:33.380 deciding that the climate is simply too hostile here uh and and a lot of the benefits to getting

00:43:38.640 the obvious attacks on them the new york times keeping keeps coming so they're self they're

00:43:43.320 taking themselves off the other issue is as you mentioned is this birthright citizenship thing

00:43:48.980 I don't even think God knows what the Robert's Court is going to do.

00:43:52.460 It's not distinguished by courage in these areas, but it doesn't actually matter because what we're talking about there is an executive order.

00:43:59.380 We've been right. We were writing about birthright citizenship and the need to cut it off for 25 years.

00:44:06.340 But it never occurred to me that it could be done by executive order.

00:44:08.980 I assumed it was going to have to be done by by statute and there are ways to do it all by constitutional amendment.

00:44:17.500 and uh but but so if it was done by executive order it could be could that too could be reversed

00:44:22.700 if necessary what we need of course is to get this into politics because most americans have

00:44:27.420 absolutely no idea at all that that if you come here illegally or even even as a tourist and have

00:44:32.540 a child here or that child's american citizen uh they think no not only have no idea about it when

00:44:38.540 they discover it they get extremely angry they think that the whole thing is crazy as of course

00:44:42.380 it is uh that's why i like the idea of a constitutional amendment that has to be passed

00:44:48.060 by what two-thirds of the states two-thirds of the states it has to be a fist fight over whether

00:44:52.860 or not we should both write citizenship or not make the democrats stand up and justify it you

00:44:58.060 know it's going to do no good at all with americans so so you know i would like to think that the

00:45:03.340 trump administration has a whole um you know battery of uh there is a there is a both moves

00:45:10.060 There is a move to get a constitutional amendment and also a statutory reform in the House at the moment.

00:45:16.760 It's just not been taken up by the by the Republican leaders.

00:45:21.020 It should be taken up as soon as if this decision goes the wrong way, it should be taken up right away immediately.

00:45:27.000 And I'd like to think that Trump administrations are all prepared for that.

00:45:30.140 But, you know, he's he has all these foreign wars to fight and stuff like that.

00:45:34.620 Yeah. And I think I am confident Stephen Miller's thinking about it.

00:45:40.060 Yeah, I think there are lots of people in the administration who recognize the importance of, you know, focusing on the domestic issues, including immigration. I'm sure Stephen Miller is absolutely one of them. You're correct on that.

00:45:51.780 And so, you know, you know, people worry about demographic change in the country

00:45:56.100 and the point to which the country becomes, you know, majority non-white,

00:45:59.840 a.k.a. Americans going to a minority.

00:46:02.840 Well, the issue isn't so much whether they're here as to whether they can vote.

00:46:06.340 And that's another thing that can be done is just report reform of the franchise.

00:46:11.040 I think at the moment you can get a vote in the U.S.

00:46:14.300 when you've been a citizen, when you've been, you can be naturalized

00:46:19.080 after you've been here legally for five years.

00:46:20.780 Well, there have been periods in the U.S. where it was much longer than that.

00:46:24.320 So I say make it 20, 25 years.

00:46:28.500 These people have to be kept out of the political nation.

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00:46:53.720 at participating shell locations conditions and limits apply actual value may be lower

00:46:58.720 visit shell.ca slash loyalty for full details i agree emphatically i think that we need

00:47:05.860 generational understandings of citizenship we need to have uh you know you and your

00:47:11.000 grandchildren need to have been here before anybody is voting so that we know that you have a

00:47:14.940 firm investment in the future of the nation. And this is not just an economic zone for you to

00:47:19.600 gain advantage in. But at the moment, I think we're probably closer to changing immigration

00:47:25.240 law than we are to changing franchise distribution, as much as I think that's an excellent idea.

00:47:30.600 One of my articles in Vida discusses the phenomenon. Miracles happen quite often in

00:47:38.280 politics. I mean, you're not enough to remember, but nobody, absolutely nobody on left or the right

00:47:44.220 expect the soviet union to collapse they were completely and totally taken by surprise by it

00:47:48.940 uh off and and then of course on the other hand nobody expected the africanus to give up in the

00:47:53.180 way that they did uh and uh of course nobody expected donald trump i mean i remember giving

00:47:59.260 a speech at america renaissance in 2015 trying to figure out what to do next but just before trump

00:48:03.340 declared and we just had no hope whatever of the with the candidates who were then on the horizon

00:48:09.580 the american system is unusually fertile it does throw up candidates with astonishing

00:48:14.220 rapidity. But, you know, as I say, miracles do happen. We may well be talking about

00:48:21.140 extending the length of time necessary to be naturalized this time next year. Who knows?

00:48:30.720 Maybe Trump will suddenly come up with it, you know, blurt it out in this inimitable fashion.

00:48:36.840 No, you are right to say that, you know, at some point, politics is the art of the impossible.

00:48:42.040 And so you have to be ready for for that as well. But but that said, I know that with, as you say, you guys being such a victim of lawfare and everything that has happened with the dare, people will not find that site printing new articles. Right.

00:48:58.000 So where should they be looking for your work now?

00:49:01.100 Well, I have this sub-site which you can get to through peterbrimelow.com and it's free.

00:49:08.860 So I encourage people to stand up to see what I'm ranting about at the moment.

00:49:14.320 The website itself, vdite.com, is still up and it's still searchable.

00:49:17.540 It was restored by volunteers.

00:49:20.540 We have lots of very dedicated volunteers.

00:49:22.480 So there's 25 years, archives there, of material on all this stuff.

00:49:28.000 And also, of course, I'm on Twitter, P. Brimelow, V. Dare's on Twitter,

00:49:34.300 and we're still active on Twitter, and we're also on Gab.

00:49:37.180 I always like to remind people of Gab because I still think one day

00:49:41.500 Elon is going to be hit by a bus or maybe even by a Tesla,

00:49:47.140 and we'll all be banned from Twitter again.

00:49:53.540 And I'm afraid that might happen to substract.

00:49:55.280 It bothers me a lot how much, you know, how people are really focused on Substack now.

00:49:59.540 It's like YouTube 15 years ago.

00:50:02.880 Yeah, Substack has been surprisingly resilient to attacks to take down things,

00:50:08.500 even though they are themselves not right-wing in any way.

00:50:11.240 They have been shockingly dedicated to maintaining a free platform,

00:50:15.020 which is very encouraging.

00:50:16.500 You would not expect it.

00:50:17.500 But yeah, I am with you.

00:50:18.940 I encourage people to follow everyone on multiple platforms.

00:50:21.600 I am also on Gab.

00:50:22.580 i back up my youtube videos on odyssey places that aren't going to go down easy they're never

00:50:27.280 going to be my main you know output but i'll always follow people across different mediums

00:50:32.360 because you never know when someone like leticia james could come after your favorite organization

00:50:36.740 your favorite uh content producers your favorite hosts and all of a sudden you can no longer

00:50:40.680 find them so i think that's very wise so i encourage people to follow mr brimlow's work

00:50:46.420 again he's been in the trenches a very long time a lot of wisdom there a whole uh just raft of

00:50:51.620 valuable articles at Vidair. And obviously he's still publishing on Substack. So you can reach

00:50:56.380 him there. Remind people also, this is not a live broadcast. So unfortunately we will not be able to

00:51:00.620 take your questions today, but we do appreciate your support. And of course, if it's your first

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00:51:21.780 Thank you everybody for watching. And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - June 22, 2026

Why the West Is Being Replaced ｜ Guest： Peter Brimelow ｜ 6⧸22⧸26

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