The Auron MacIntyre Show - Will Trump's Tech Alliance End in AI Disaster？｜ Guest： Joe Allen

00:00:00.160 Hey everybody, how's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon. I've got a great

00:00:04.380 stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy. Of course, many of

00:00:09.280 us are ecstatic at the opening that the Trump administration has had. So many positive changes,

00:00:16.660 so many important executive orders signed and started to be executed. Deportations are

00:00:21.820 happening, all kinds of great stuff. But in that mix, one that is often passed over is

00:00:28.040 Trump's executive order about artificial intelligence and dedicating the United States

00:00:32.620 government to being a leader in that field. Somebody who thinks a lot about the implications

00:00:37.820 of artificial intelligence is Joe Allen. He has a book on the subject, and of course,

00:00:43.500 he's also a fixture over on Steve Bannon's War Room. Joe, thanks for coming on, man.

00:00:48.960 All right. I really appreciate it, man. Thank you for having me.

00:00:51.500 Absolutely. I know that you have recently written a piece about the Stargate program

00:00:57.180 that Trump has initiated. And of course, we also saw the big news with the DeepSeek AI coming out

00:01:05.760 of China. I want to talk about all of that. But before we do, guys, let me tell you a little bit

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00:02:08.720 All right, Joe. I think most people know at this point that the kind of Silicon Valley tech bro

00:02:16.000 alliance is a significant faction inside the Trump administration. In many ways, it was incredibly

00:02:22.380 beneficial. It granted Trump a large amount of funding that he needed. It granted him the reach

00:02:27.680 that he needed. A free platform or at least semi-free platform like Twitter had a huge impact on the news

00:02:34.180 cycle and what was available. And of course, just the social cachet and kind of the elite

00:02:40.540 influence that comes with a guy like Elon Musk or David Sachs and some of these other guys

00:02:46.360 was really critical, I think, in ensuring that Trump got that second term. And as is always the

00:02:53.220 case with coalition politics, once things are over, then you need to start making good on some of

00:02:58.300 those promises. You need to go ahead and give people what they want in order to keep their support.

00:03:03.400 We saw a little bit of a clash between the different wings of the coalition with the

00:03:07.520 populace and the tech bros when it came to the H-1B situation over Christmas, that kind of thing.

00:03:14.180 But in general, we see a lot of the populace, a lot of the base getting what they want when it comes

00:03:18.500 to deportations and birthright citizenship, possibly, and all of these other executive orders

00:03:23.500 that Trump is issuing. However, you raised an alarm when it came to kind of the Stargate project

00:03:30.240 and Trump's executive order on AI. Could you give people a little bit of an idea of what

00:03:36.140 the executive order was and what this project entails?

00:03:41.340 Well, the executive order itself is simply to a declaration that regulations would either be

00:03:49.940 lifted or not be put on tech development. This has been part of the narrative in Trump's campaign.

00:03:57.080 It shouldn't really come as any sort of surprise. There was one phrase that was used or two words

00:04:04.780 used in that EO that really stuck out that the artificial intelligence should be used for

00:04:10.520 human flourishing. And I'm very skeptical of the power of artificial intelligence to do that,

00:04:18.160 but to the extent it can, what has to be taken into account is the degree to which AI is going to lead

00:04:25.640 to human atrophy. And it already has, you know, I'm sure your listeners are well aware of the effect

00:04:32.260 of becoming Google brained or wiki brained so that you know very little about any one thing

00:04:38.780 and just enough about everything to kind of get you through your day. But ultimately you become

00:04:43.900 basically a host for an algorithmic parasite, a kind of channel through which information flows.

00:04:50.600 So the EO is, again, it's just a declaration that the U.S. will not constrain AI. And this is

00:04:59.320 largely at the behest of people like Marc Andreessen, people like Peter Thiel, who have long argued that

00:05:06.600 tech regulation is strangling tech development and breakthroughs in the U.S. And, you know,

00:05:13.700 I don't know if I believe fully that the Biden administration planned to create a kind of cartel

00:05:19.960 system or, you know, a series of monopolies with Andreessen telling Joe Rogan that you would only

00:05:27.320 have three big AI companies. I suppose that would be OpenAI, Google, and perhaps Microsoft. I don't

00:05:35.360 remember any specifics stated, so forgive me on that. But I do, it was very clear that the way

00:05:43.200 that the Biden administration and the would have been future Harris administration would have approached

00:05:49.080 it would be to use AI safety as a way to bolster the power of big tech and suppress the freedom of

00:05:57.760 little tech companies. Now, why is any of that a problem? I think that the Stargate project is more

00:06:04.700 important as a symbol, at least right now, than it is as actual technological development. You had

00:06:13.760 Trump's second day in office, he had a press conference in which he brought out Sam Altman

00:06:21.440 of OpenAI, which really shocked me. Maybe I just wasn't keeping up. Larry Ellison of Oracle and Masayoshi

00:06:28.580 son of SoftBank. And Trump is basically endorsing the project, the half billion right now, half billion

00:06:35.800 dollar project to build out data centers right now in Abilene, Texas, and certainly elsewhere.

00:06:42.540 And this, the goal is to keep the U.S. ahead of China and any other competitors on artificial

00:06:50.720 intelligence. I get the strategic element of it. But to me, what I see, especially in my interactions

00:06:58.360 with populists and deeply religious traditionalists, is that there is a direct conflict between the vision

00:07:05.840 that's held by big tech or little tech. The idea that artificial intelligence will yield artificial

00:07:13.800 general intelligence, which is basically a flexible superhuman mind, and then ultimately to artificial

00:07:20.960 superintelligence, which we heard Masayoshi-san say there at the press conference. These are inherently

00:07:28.340 religious ideas. And I think any deeply religious person, even to the extent that you believe that

00:07:35.020 these are just tools that could be used perhaps for the benefit of religion or spiritual depth,

00:07:41.700 or even just simply to protect human beings from the predations of the outside world,

00:07:48.360 you have to reckon with the ultimate vision that these people have, including Elon Musk,

00:07:54.360 and understand that it's quite possible that you aren't going to use them, but that they are going to use you.

00:08:02.340 Yeah, this is something that I always try to explain to people. You know, when you talk about AI

00:08:08.780 and the possible dangers, it's so difficult to get a handle on what is actually going on because

00:08:16.060 you'll have one expert say, don't be ridiculous. AI basically can't tell you anything that you don't

00:08:22.360 teach it to tell you. It can't gain its own intelligence of any type. You know, this is a pipe

00:08:29.780 dream that this will ever be any kind of danger. Then you have other people saying, oh no, at any moment,

00:08:34.360 this is going to reach some level of, you know, sentience is going to like take over the world,

00:08:38.320 these kinds of things. But the point as you're making right here is whatever turns out to be

00:08:43.700 true about AI, whether it becomes just a mediocre kind of thing that vomits out bad emails, or if it

00:08:50.840 turns into something that actually runs the globe, the problem is the way that it trains you to think,

00:08:56.720 right? I taught, you know, exactly what you're talking about. I taught high school and I saw the

00:09:01.900 Google brain all the time. You know, the phrase was, we want to teach kids how to think, not what

00:09:08.380 to think. We want kids to be able to find where the answers are, not necessarily memorize all the

00:09:13.320 answers. And what actually happens in that scenario is children have no fundamental kind of substrate

00:09:20.540 from which to reason. They have nothing to collect together and actually bring forth when you ask them

00:09:26.680 a question. All they know how to do is go and retrieve the information that Google feeds them.

00:09:32.120 And so they, and, and they take this as the gospel. Like this is how you understand, this is their

00:09:37.600 epistemology, right? This is, this is where knowledge comes from. And so there's, there's a fundamental

00:09:42.860 break from the way that, you know, you and I, and, you know, we were probably, I don't know how old you

00:09:47.960 are, but I'm, I'm 40, you know, this is a relatively early generation, you know, that had computers in the

00:09:53.640 home for the first time. But even then we still remember, you know, going to the library, looking

00:09:59.500 up information, you need to find books, you need to, you know, memorize a certain amount of base

00:10:03.900 knowledge. But when you have this machine, it just, it trains you to rely on that algorithm to deliver

00:10:10.920 whatever information that you're looking for and trains you to treat this as a reliable source of

00:10:16.760 truth. And so whatever, whatever the end goal of AI is, whatever it actually turns out to be,

00:10:22.860 the danger ultimately, I think, I feel is, is the social engineering and the training of humans to

00:10:29.460 think more like machines than vice versa. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I understand the logic of

00:10:37.020 the AI safety or effective altruist community with the idea that artificial general or artificial

00:10:44.100 super intelligence will evade human control and begin to wreak havoc as it's, as it gains control

00:10:52.740 of all of the digital and mechanical robotic infrastructure around us. The logic makes

00:10:58.500 sense. That's not my main concern. It's not really much of a concern at all for me, at least not right

00:11:04.980 now, certainly not with the level of performance that we see. The main concerns that I have are really

00:11:11.320 threefold. The first is that threat of human atrophy, that human beings, as they become reliant on these

00:11:21.040 technologies, lose their ability to reason, lose their research capability, oftentimes lose touch with

00:11:29.000 reality entirely. And you didn't need AI for that. It was plenty, that, that threat was plenty present with

00:11:36.180 print media, with radio, television, with the internet, with social media and smartphones.

00:11:43.260 It's just accelerating it. It's adding more capabilities and more risk. And it is something

00:11:49.040 that for right now, it's a matter of consumer choice. You don't want to do it. For the most part,

00:11:54.040 you don't have to, although it's becoming more difficult as government agencies adopt it. As we saw

00:11:59.500 with the recent announcement of the rollout of chat GPT-gov, which means that OpenAI will be

00:12:06.600 providing AI for government employees to basically have the AI do their research and thinking for

00:12:13.960 them. But also in companies, various companies, Salesforce is very popular. Many other AI companies

00:12:19.400 are being pushed into different corporations and even smaller businesses so that if you want to work

00:12:25.960 there, you need to be skilled in AI. And one of the big risks, I think too, is also in medicine.

00:12:33.340 There's a lot of promise, I'm sure, with AI used for diagnosis or for surgeries, AIs used to control

00:12:42.900 robotic equipment in order to conduct all sorts of sensitive surgeries. But as we already have a huge

00:12:50.020 problem with doctors and nurses being incompetent. And the more it's AI or any other sort of technologies

00:12:57.560 held out as a solution to this, the worse that'll get. The second is just, it's also in line as part

00:13:04.760 of a continuum, surveillance and psychological manipulation. Sam Altman at OpenAI and Mustafa

00:13:13.380 Suleiman make this very explicit. Mustafa Suleiman is head of Microsoft AI, which obviously there's a

00:13:19.400 direct connection there because Microsoft and OpenAI are partnered. And they talk about the use of AI

00:13:25.160 agents as an extension of oneself. And that would mean that the AI, and this is their way of thinking,

00:13:33.580 their words, the AI would know everything about you, every link you click, every website you visited,

00:13:39.860 how long you visited it. It would know every file on your computer. It would listen to every phone call.

00:13:45.180 It would read your every email. It would know all of your contacts and would function as an extension

00:13:50.580 of yourself. This is the ultimate in surveillance, a piece of software that is literally made. Think

00:13:58.920 Microsoft recall. It's literally made to watch everything you do for your own good. And from there,

00:14:07.020 it's very easy to manipulate people. The more you know about someone, the easier that person is to

00:14:12.040 manipulate. And you don't have to be super cynical to know that when someone has that power, more than

00:14:17.560 likely they're going to use it for their benefit and not for yours. And the last is what I call the

00:14:23.880 greater replacement. You don't have to have an AI that's better than a white collar worker or a robot

00:14:33.140 that's better than a blue collar worker in order for jobs to be lost and the value of a worker in any

00:14:40.580 capacity to be undermined. All you need is enough enthusiasm by either corporations or educational

00:14:49.100 institutions or just simply other people that you will be replaced. And the entire impetus behind

00:14:59.160 the development of artificial intelligence and robotics, as is expressed by Elon Musk, as is expressed

00:15:04.520 by Sam Altman, Dario Amadei of Anthropic, and on and on and on. They talk about this in terms of human

00:15:12.440 replacement, the greater replacement. It may not be possible. It may not pan out as they dream,

00:15:18.340 but you have to understand that in their minds, as they're developing it, they're developing it in

00:15:22.900 order to replace you. That alone should throw up all the red flags in the world to know that even if

00:15:30.000 they're benefiting you now in the short term, in the long term, that is not the vision that they hold.

00:15:36.160 Now, the problem that you always hear, and with the, again, the emergence of this deep seek,

00:15:43.500 you know, technology from China, those fears seem to be a little more realistic. The problem you always

00:15:49.860 hear from people is, well, this is the arms race problem, right? If we don't build the tank,

00:15:55.240 someone else will build the tank. If we don't build the atomic bomb, someone else is going to build the

00:15:59.160 atomic bomb. If we don't build AI, someone else is going to build AI, and we will be ruled by the

00:16:04.400 people who built AI in the same way we have ruled the people who didn't make it to the bomb in time,

00:16:09.200 right? So yeah, we understand the dangers, but ultimately, if we do not involve ourselves in

00:16:15.720 this process, then we're going to lose out in the long run. Could you talk a little bit about deep

00:16:22.440 seek? Because I think that's something that kind of popped up out of nowhere. A lot of people didn't

00:16:25.740 know, like, is that actually better? Is that actually some kind of Sputnik moment for the

00:16:31.000 United States when it comes to the racer AI? And ultimately, what do you think of this kind of the

00:16:35.400 tank problem argument about, you know, we have to be involved in the arms race, or we'll simply be

00:16:40.240 conquered by it? Well, deep seek R1 is certainly cheaper because it's free. And it's open sourced.

00:16:48.020 And you can download it and through OLAMA or any other platform and run it on your own private

00:16:53.640 server, meaning that the surveillance issue is sidestepped. Although when it hit number one

00:16:59.480 on the Apple App Store in the US, that indicates that most people are not going to do that. Most

00:17:04.540 people are simply going to use the app. And that means that just like with TikTok, your data is

00:17:09.160 being hoovered up by China. And China, for all of the, I think it's oftentimes the threat of China is

00:17:15.820 very much overblown. Certainly they do have deep impacts on US politicians, US companies,

00:17:22.420 and wider US sentiment. So it's certainly a concern. And with deep seek too, you saw that just

00:17:28.380 public perception has a huge impact so that investors got scared and suddenly you had this

00:17:35.400 massive tanking of Nvidia stock. Now I've had a lot of conversations with Ed Dowd about this,

00:17:40.660 about how overvalued Nvidia was and how that was somewhat inevitable. And this was kind of a

00:17:46.320 catalyst. But in the long run, what it also shows is the kind of willingness of US citizens to adopt

00:17:56.100 any of these technologies because of the enthusiasm of it, behind it. You've got this idea AI is going

00:18:02.380 to be this super useful tool in my life. And without it, how am I going to be able to compete? So much so

00:18:07.920 that they're willing to use the Chinese knockoff in order to stay up with the race and also oftentimes

00:18:14.460 just be entertained. So as far as its capabilities, it does meet a lot of the benchmarks that say OpenAI

00:18:22.480 or, you know, Claude from Anthropic. It does meet a lot of those benchmarks and in some ways maybe

00:18:28.280 better, but ultimately it was based off of OpenAI's model. And how much they poured into

00:18:37.900 it, you know, the reporting is that it took $5 million, $5 to $10 million to train it and that

00:18:44.920 it was trained on low grade H800 Nvidia chips. And so, you know, it was super efficient in order to

00:18:53.500 create it. I don't think there's any good reason to believe those numbers. You had Alexander Wang of

00:18:59.580 scale AI at Davos over a week ago saying that DeepSeq most likely has about 50,000 H100 Nvidia chips.

00:19:11.800 And even if that's not remote, you know, even if that's not keeping up with someone like OpenAI or the

00:19:16.660 Colossus super cluster in Memphis under XAI, Elon Musk, it does, you know, I think there's every reason

00:19:23.980 to believe that the Chinese are not ahead of the U.S. in the technology. Everyone I know in AI,

00:19:32.600 when they read Chinese papers, and there's way more Chinese papers published in the journals

00:19:37.380 than U.S. produced papers, the quality is enormous. I mean, I'm sorry, the quantity is enormous.

00:19:44.680 The quality really isn't. The same with patents. So that race, that race dynamic is in some ways

00:19:51.440 also inflated. Not to say that you want the Chinese to get ahead of us, just to say that it's in many

00:19:58.480 ways a talking point. It's a way to leverage enthusiasm and investment and government cooperation

00:20:05.660 with U.S. companies against a foreign adversary that isn't necessarily as big a threat as it's made

00:20:11.760 out to be. Just real quick, you know, to round off this notion of like, what does this all mean as far

00:20:17.400 as the ongoing AI arms race, which is absolutely real? With the DeepSeek situation, the crisis that

00:20:27.440 it created earlier this week, Monday, you've got three main camps that you have to look at here.

00:20:34.780 Big tech, so that would be Google, that would be OpenAI and Microsoft, that would be Meta and Amazon.

00:20:40.760 You've got little tech, as Marc Andreessen would say, that would be the startups. And I would also put

00:20:45.380 Elon Musk in that camp, even if XAI or SpaceX or Tesla are not little companies, he's still so

00:20:52.920 adversarial with the bigger companies that I think it's safe to put him over in little tech.

00:20:56.960 And then you've got China, right? You've got DeepSeek, you've got ByteDance with TikTok,

00:21:01.740 you've got Baidu and Tencent and Alibaba. So what the DeepSeek release did was undermine big tech.

00:21:08.660 It undermined the claim that you need OpenAI in order to drive this forward, that you need Microsoft,

00:21:14.380 that you need Anthropik and these US companies. And that you can do it cheaper,

00:21:22.460 you can, they're overvalued, so on and so forth. That benefited little tech. And Marc Andreessen was

00:21:28.320 among the first to point out, you know, hey, salute to you, DeepSeek, you know, for creating this

00:21:33.620 fantastic model and kind of upping the value of DeepSeek. I would imagine if I could get into his

00:21:39.380 head that he knows that undermines the big tech companies and allows the little tech companies

00:21:44.080 that are, you know, being invested in by Andreessen Horowitz and other startups to get a foothold

00:21:49.960 where they wouldn't otherwise be able to. The price of NVIDIA chips is probably going to drop

00:21:54.380 significantly because of this, allowing for startups. So, and then China has their own reasons,

00:22:00.640 obviously. So it's kind of a complicated web work in which there's a lot of cooperation,

00:22:06.080 but there's also a lot of competition. Again, it's an AI arms race. So, you know,

00:22:11.540 an unethical player will simply do whatever they can to get ahead in it.

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00:22:43.480 Now, I wrote a book on the effects of scale, largely. And I think a big part of what we're

00:22:53.200 seeing now is the need to find another way of, kind of, as Nick Land calls it, the monkey business

00:23:02.700 problem of technology, right? Like we can't, we cannot scale efficiently any more than we really

00:23:10.340 have without running into very serious problems. In fact, right now, the United States is largely

00:23:15.600 trying to debug its kind of managerial class, right? It got full of this wokeness stuff,

00:23:22.280 you know, malfunctioned, caused a serious problem in kind of the functioning of the larger system.

00:23:28.840 And so I get the feeling that a large driver of this AI rat race, and you tell me if I'm wrong about this,

00:23:38.160 but I get the feeling that a lot of guys like Elon Musk and others and Mark Andreessen,

00:23:43.760 who ultimately don't really like their dependence on the, you know, managerial class,

00:23:49.380 are functionally trying to replace it with AI. That this will kind of stand in and do many of those jobs,

00:23:55.900 or, you know, at least a facsimile of these tasks that will allow them to continue to operate without

00:24:02.920 necessarily having a large, you know, wielding a large staff of managerial guys. On top of this,

00:24:09.240 it also allows for more effective, as we have both pointed out, social engineering, which is, again,

00:24:16.220 critical for scale. And so I feel like one of the reasons that AI has become so central, one of the

00:24:23.820 reasons that that is something that they've encouraged Trump to support, and that they

00:24:28.000 themselves are trying to kind of break open on several fronts, is that ultimately, this is the

00:24:32.860 way to evade a consequence of trying to stack complexity inside human systems. What do you

00:24:40.420 think about that idea? Do you think that that ties into their motivation?

00:24:43.640 Absolutely. You look at Mark Andreessen's recent interview with the New York Times, and he talks

00:24:51.840 about how the need to kind of overcome the woke mind virus, as it's often said, in order to actually

00:25:04.600 get ahead as a company, as a CEO. And a lot of that runs through our state bureaucracy. Also,

00:25:12.740 the regulatory system itself, which is suppressing these different technological

00:25:17.340 advancements or slowing them down, that managerial state is a huge obstacle. Now, with, and Peter Thiel

00:25:26.180 oftentimes speaks of this too, right? And has for a long time. But as far as the replacement of that same

00:25:36.240 sort of system, whether it's decentralized or centralized control, it's still an apparatus

00:25:44.440 that you, the average person, aren't going to have a whole lot of say in, and it's going to be this

00:25:48.440 behemoth that rolls over you. But in this case, more driven by corporate power than government power. I

00:25:56.240 think that's a very real danger. And it's not really how it's happening either. You have all of these

00:26:02.400 different partnerships between these companies and the US government and across the world. So

00:26:08.120 it's the real concerns, again, everything from human atrophy to surveillance and manipulation

00:26:14.820 to the undermining of human value. And so the replacement with algorithms and eventually on down

00:26:21.320 the road, more and more automation and robots, you've got kind of the same problem in different

00:26:27.960 flavors of it. Some of these guys, and this isn't to say that, I'm not trying to pin this necessarily

00:26:35.500 on Marc Andreessen or Peter Thiel or someone like that, but some of these guys really do see a world

00:26:40.220 in which algorithms are more effective at governance than human beings, by and large. There is this

00:26:49.460 notion of an algocracy in which it's not just human beings who are in power, who are deploying these

00:26:57.340 these algorithms or AIs in order to suppress or manipulate or whatever they're trying to do to

00:27:03.120 the population below them. But one in which the algorithm itself is responsible for decision making

00:27:08.940 at the highest levels, because it is less fallible than a human being. And it doesn't necessarily matter

00:27:17.600 if any one of these guys is taking on that sort of algocracy model in their ambitions to build AI companies

00:27:28.500 or robotics companies or anything else. What matters is that the more it's normalized, the more that AI is seen

00:27:34.660 as a source of authority, the closer you get to that on down the road as other people who are much more

00:27:40.540 interested in that model come to replace the current crop. I'll just make one point on this. Like with

00:27:47.660 Elon Musk, Musk has his upsides, obviously, right? And Musk in many ways carried Trump across the finish

00:27:56.880 line to this victory, which gives us Americans tremendous leverage, tremendous power to make our own

00:28:04.400 decisions, closing the border, eliminating affirmative action, DEI. Now, all these different

00:28:10.560 things allow Americans to start making these decisions and put pressure where we couldn't

00:28:15.380 otherwise do it. But in Musk's long-term vision, you know, I go into it in the article, the Stargate is

00:28:21.180 open, as he expressed it at the Consumer Electronics Show earlier in this month, in January. And he's been

00:28:30.540 saying this forever, that in the near future, and in his timeline, it's more and more aggressive.

00:28:38.360 You're going to have in the next few years, artificial general intelligence, meaning an AI that can do

00:28:44.740 any cognitive task that you can do, but better, meaning that wipes out the entirety of the white

00:28:51.420 collar class. And that in the not so distant future, decade or so, in his vision, again, this is an

00:28:59.540 advertisement. It's not the burger itself, right? But in his vision that you'll have three to one

00:29:05.920 ratio, four to one ratio of human to humanoid robot. So this, the biggest mass immigration

00:29:12.020 in history. So drawing from the platonic mathematical realms, you're flooding the planet with these

00:29:19.560 humanoids, in his estimation, some 30 billion of them that can do any task you can do. And what's his

00:29:25.100 response? It's kind of a chuckle. And he says, well, maybe it'll be kind of like retirement.

00:29:31.540 And what faith can you have that people who are thinking like this really do have some kind of

00:29:41.400 human-centered philosophy that will benefit you in mind? I am very, very skeptical of that. And I think

00:29:48.120 that whatever direction it goes, whether it's governmental power, whether it's corporate power,

00:29:52.780 or the public-private partnership that we're hearing so much about in recent years, it is

00:29:59.380 inherently anti-human. And even if it benefits elite humans, it is undoubtedly, for most of the people

00:30:07.100 listening here, anti-you.

00:30:10.000 Yeah, I agree with the majority of that. And I guess that only makes this more concerning,

00:30:16.840 because honestly, when I look at what's happening, I don't really see any brakes on this train,

00:30:23.120 right? Like, as you point out, now that this technology is more available, that you don't

00:30:29.100 have to be a Microsoft or a Google to wield it, then that's going to make it harder and harder

00:30:34.580 to stop, right? It's, again, to draw a parallel to nuclear proliferation. You can't just control

00:30:42.660 the uranium and then, you know, other people can't develop it. The problem is everywhere and

00:30:47.540 simultaneous and more and more available. Also, I think that the history of humanity pretty much

00:30:55.540 points to the fact that we are fundamentally incapable, or incapable, rather, of resisting

00:31:01.920 the metaphysics of the washing machine, as Alexander Dugan calls it. You know, we are drawn to these

00:31:08.280 developments. We are very bad at denying ourselves to them. Those that have really are considered

00:31:16.280 basically, you know, ascetic monks. You know, like, that's the level of discipline required to

00:31:20.900 kind of withdraw from these kind of things. And so, while I think that all of the warnings that

00:31:26.720 you're giving are there, and I say this all the time, you know, people will, you know, chat with

00:31:30.660 AIs. I'm like, you should stop talking to demons, and they'll just laugh at me. And I'll be like,

00:31:34.880 no, that's not funny. But as much as I get mocked for this, I do think that we are on a rendezvous

00:31:43.220 with this kind of one way or another. I think that whether you welcome the acceleration or are

00:31:50.540 terrified of it, it's coming either way. Capital will emancipate itself from humanity one way or

00:31:57.880 another. And so, I guess, in some way, are we just Cassandra at this point? Or is there anything

00:32:04.680 that can actually be done? Again, in a free country like America, which is freer than others,

00:32:14.440 there are choices that you can make personally. You don't, nobody's forcing you as a private citizen

00:32:21.740 to use AI for much of anything, or any electronics for that matter. Now, when you're competing against

00:32:29.720 others, and if you're talking about what's normal and not normal in society, it was once very weird

00:32:35.360 for somebody to pull out a smartphone. Now, it's very weird if you don't have one. And that happened

00:32:39.860 very, very fast. So, there are definitely trade-offs to rejecting technology, but the possibility is still

00:32:46.800 there on a personal level, and even on a small communal and institutional level. The real issue

00:32:53.700 is that kind of inevitability that you're talking about. One thing that does seem pretty certain,

00:33:00.260 even if it's in fits and starts, is that technological development is upward and therefore somewhat

00:33:07.840 inevitable. But what's also inevitable is that the predictions around technology are oftentimes very

00:33:16.120 wrong, or at least they're only half correct, meaning that whatever one's vision of that inevitable

00:33:22.740 future is, it's not necessarily that specific future, such as Ray Kurzweil's singularity, that is

00:33:30.260 what is inevitable. Simply, the kind of abstract of development is what's inevitable. So, there are a lot

00:33:37.000 of different paths it can go. Just to take one example, it's quite possible that in order for the U.S.

00:33:43.340 to maintain dominance geopolitically and economically, that you would have AI, the AI arms race focused on

00:33:53.100 the military, focused on intelligence, outward focusing intelligence agencies like the CIA in theory,

00:33:59.940 and that these technologies would be used to surveil foreign adversaries and would be used to apply

00:34:07.380 military pressure on them to stay out of our business and stay out of our way without turning those same

00:34:15.680 technologies on the population itself and making it either necessary or mandatory or semi-necessary for the

00:34:23.420 population. And there's a good argument for that because we've already seen all these unintended consequences of

00:34:29.180 digital technology, the Google brain, the mass surveillance, the mass manipulation, the deterioration

00:34:36.000 of traditional culture. And maybe the best analogy to my mind, because it's so in your face, is the

00:34:43.500 progress in the creation of more and more advanced synthetic opioids. Okay, that was maybe in some way

00:34:50.200 inevitable, but it was not inevitable that you had the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the world

00:34:55.600 pushing it through compliant doctors onto the population, leading to the death of many people

00:35:01.380 that are very close to me and many people that are probably close to those listening. This irresponsible

00:35:07.200 and reckless use of it is not necessarily inevitable. It didn't have to go that way. And just on a final

00:35:15.860 note, the promise of technology is not always the actual technology itself. You don't have to believe

00:35:23.660 that AI is a demon in order to know that it is an entity in the world that is not there for your

00:35:32.080 benefit so much as the creator's benefit. And you don't have to believe that AI will become a god

00:35:37.520 to know that there are already people who believe that it is a kind of low-level god building power and

00:35:45.880 that in the future, AI will be a god that these people believe never existed. And we're not talking

00:35:53.060 about basement dwellers. We're talking about Sam Altman. We're talking about Elon Musk. And Bill

00:35:59.360 Gates was actually really conservative on this, but more and more he's in line with his thinking.

00:36:03.400 We're talking about Bill Gates, talking about Larry Page, the wealthiest men on earth with the most

00:36:09.580 powerful corporations on earth, funded or supported by the most powerful governments and militaries on

00:36:16.280 earth. So it has to be grappled with. I'm not blackpilling. I am not hopeless. We faced

00:36:22.460 so many different things as a species, as a country, as a race. I don't blackpill on this,

00:36:29.600 but I do think that in order to confront that future just in your own personal life and to the

00:36:34.760 extent you can control wider policy as a country, then you have to be realistic about what the motives

00:36:41.800 are behind the creation and deployment of these technologies and what the actual effect is.

00:36:47.580 Is this a miracle cure, an elixir, or is this simply an addictive substance that will maybe

00:36:54.900 not kill your body, but absolutely kill your mind?

00:36:58.920 Now, I think a lot of people look at Trump as the return of human agency and governance

00:37:08.940 to a certain extent. Maybe they wouldn't voice it that way, but they act as if that's the case,

00:37:15.920 right, that we have been ruled by systems for a long time. You know, the constitution itself is an

00:37:21.720 attempt to kind of put a system above human rule, right, where it's the rule of law, not the rule

00:37:27.980 of men. And then the managerial regime is like another abstraction of that, right? We don't make

00:37:36.000 decisions directly. There's not direct accountability. It's a process. It's a system. We're outsourcing

00:37:41.420 our responsibility to kind of a hive mind intelligence, though mostly human directly in

00:37:47.060 that scenario. Now you're pointing to the desire to move that decision-making process into the digital

00:37:53.560 realm to put the artificial intelligence in charge. It becomes our new constitution. It becomes our new

00:38:00.120 managerial class. It's, you know, I don't know what level of hyperreality that puts us in, but pretty deep

00:38:06.560 in the stack. Do you find a certain level of irony that at a time in which people are choosing

00:38:15.040 politically to embrace human accountability and action more directly than they have in a very long

00:38:21.940 time with Trump and his desire to dismantle much of the managerial state, that simultaneously we are

00:38:27.540 working as rapidly as possible to then remove human agency from the government's process?

00:38:32.420 Well, it's a good thing that we do at least have Trump in there, even if he is right now

00:38:39.200 functioning as a kind of salesman for the singularity. And even if in the end, we'll

00:38:43.880 remember this era as Trumpian transhumanism, it gives us a foothold. And if nothing else,

00:38:52.020 Trump and his team have been very responsive to the voice of the people, the voice of our people,

00:39:00.760 as it were. So I do have a lot of hope there. It's not naive hope. And it's certainly not the

00:39:08.780 direction it's going right now. But, you know, I see what Trump is doing in closing off the border

00:39:15.460 as something that is very pro-human in its essence, because there's nothing more anti-human

00:39:19.780 than flooding a country with foreigners and then expecting everyone to act like it's normal.

00:39:25.840 That's not, you are not a human being if you're forced to watch your town, the demographic shift

00:39:32.000 overwhelmingly. And you have to be like, and that's a good thing. That is inherently anti-human.

00:39:38.500 He's making space for real human instinct territorialism and a desire to define and drive

00:39:46.260 one's own destiny. Same thing with repealing DEI programs and hiring in the government. The same

00:39:52.800 thing with the seeming like maybe putting pressure on universities to do the same. There's some things

00:39:59.540 that I don't like, right? I don't like the idea of clamping down on criticizing various excesses by

00:40:07.200 Israel, for instance, and in some ways criminalizing anti-Semitism. But that isn't, I don't think,

00:40:15.880 the defining momentum of the Trump administration. I think that it is giving us more space to make

00:40:24.640 these decisions at a critical time. And the more we use that leverage, the more we use the voice that

00:40:31.880 we have and the power that we have to direct it in a way that at least leaves us intact, the better off

00:40:39.200 we are. You know, where are we at now? It's less than two weeks. You know, there's no way to know

00:40:45.680 exactly where everything will go. And all it will take is a massive crisis to throw everything into

00:40:50.800 question and anything might be on the table. But I am personally more hopeful with Trump being in

00:40:57.840 place than Kamala Harris and the various shadowy forces around that administration taking control,

00:41:05.240 because that would mean we basically had no outlet other than things that are best not spoken of on

00:41:11.720 YouTube. So it's, I think, hopeful, but it's something that will require for those of us who do

00:41:19.100 not want, that don't share this vision of a transhuman or a posthuman future as outmoded and

00:41:26.740 passé as those terms may be, those of us who do not want a singularity and do not necessarily even

00:41:33.640 believe such a thing as possible. This is our opportunity to put certain stakes in the ground,

00:41:41.160 define our territory, define our cultural boundaries, and hopefully certain legal boundaries,

00:41:48.040 personal privacy, data ownership, so on and so forth. But ultimately, this is all,

00:41:55.040 it's hanging in the balance. I do hope that people will make the wisest decisions possible.

00:42:00.480 Let me play a little bit of devil's advocate in this case, perhaps literally. One of the promises,

00:42:09.520 like I said, of AI is the possibility that it could defeat the problem of scale. At this point,

00:42:17.760 we have had to build our human systems as inhumanly as possible. We've had to socially engineer people

00:42:23.840 radically in order to scale our societies to the point we have them now. And if you don't do that,

00:42:29.520 then you're going to lose, right? This is always the threat. You know, that's why one way or another,

00:42:33.560 you're going to get AI because it's the next step in kind of doing this. And yeah, maybe the Chinese

00:42:39.400 get one version of social credit score and we get another one, but everyone ends up with social

00:42:44.000 credit scores in a panopticon because that's what the modern total state needs to operate.

00:42:49.560 But one of the possibilities for AI is it could, you know, crash us out of that paradigm

00:42:55.120 time and allow, uh, smaller states to function and, uh, compete with states that are just trying

00:43:01.600 to wield masses amounts of humanity. Um, and so, you know, a lot of people have pointed out that,

00:43:07.520 well, you know, unfortunately right now we still have the tech bros trying to get as many H1B visa

00:43:12.600 holders into the, uh, United States as possible to build something like this. Once it's built,

00:43:17.360 uh, you might not need, uh, the kind of immigrant labor that you have now, you might not need the

00:43:22.620 managerial state that you might have now. You might not need, uh, the, this kind of vast network.

00:43:28.140 Again, that kind of, uh, demand scale of every government, every state, and they could actually

00:43:33.120 allow us to return to something much smaller, something like a city state, uh, that I think

00:43:38.380 would be much more conducive to human flourishing rather than trying to build these giant, uh,

00:43:43.500 global empires and, and, and smash them against each other on a regular basis. If it could do that,

00:43:49.260 if it could collapse the need for, you know, rampant immigration and manage your regimes and

00:43:55.180 allow us to scale society down to manage a level level while keeping the same level or an increased

00:44:00.520 level of complexity, would that not be a possible trade-off that could be worth it?

00:44:05.760 I think that people who are operating with those sorts of ideals in mind are certainly better allies

00:44:11.700 than those who foresee, you know, some total cyborgization of humanity and ultimate replacement

00:44:19.500 by algorithms. Uh, Balaji Srinivasan's idea of the network state, for instance, uh, were even,

00:44:28.220 well, I, I, I, I, let's just stick with that. Uh, this, this idea of kind of a replacement of the

00:44:37.680 modern and outmoded nation state and the current, uh, geopolitical arrangement with different kind of

00:44:45.360 opt in modes of government and economies. I think that that, that holds out a better model than some

00:44:54.680 of the more draconian and, and basically culturally and sometimes biologically genocidal ideas as to where

00:45:03.140 this could all go. And in the short term, those tools will need to be used, right? Like if all of

00:45:10.020 us right now, uh, decide to become monks or to become Amish, then it's pretty clear who will inherit

00:45:17.240 the earth. So it's very, very complicated. Um, you know, I think about this just, uh, this is, I know

00:45:24.320 we're running short on time, so I can't go into this too much, but I do think about this in terms of

00:45:29.640 religion. This is in fact, it's the only way that I really know how to think about it. And all

00:45:35.620 throughout history, especially Christian history, you have all these compromises that are made with

00:45:40.920 worldly power. And sometimes that's for the best. And sometimes that's for the worst. Uh, so long as

00:45:46.920 people do hold higher spiritual ideals in their hearts and in their motivations, it's at least going

00:45:54.800 to be better as they get their hands dirty and sometimes bloody out in the world. And so you can't

00:46:01.820 necessarily step back and become that aesthetic in order to survive, especially not if you are a

00:46:08.720 programmer, right? But you can at least put that distance there and shield your own heart from this

00:46:15.200 nightmarish vision. That's for the most part shared by the most powerful players in this. And that can

00:46:24.080 be positive, more positive than it would otherwise be. Uh, so I, you know, I'm not one who I'm not a

00:46:30.680 total purist mainly because you can't afford to be, I'm not one who says that if you are a programmer

00:46:36.380 or, you know, even if, even, even if I give you hell for it, uh, even if you use these AIs to help

00:46:42.620 you with your writing and research or whatever, I'm not one to say, okay, we just need to push all of

00:46:46.960 it out and become purists. Uh, if you can afford to do that, great. If you can't, well, then you live in the

00:46:52.720 real world with the rest of us, just like we're using this technology now. But I do think that

00:46:57.620 those, those kinds of alternative models, just to return just briefly to, uh, Bologi's notion of

00:47:03.620 the network state. He has another way of thinking about things that I think is really instructive,

00:47:07.860 this idea of the gray tribe and then the red tribe and the blue tribe, right? Like down here on earth,

00:47:12.880 you have the red tribe, the conservatives, traditionalists, so on and so forth. And then the

00:47:17.240 blue tribe, the progressives, the, you know, tranny baby makers, all that sort of stuff.

00:47:21.000 And then you have this gray tribe that exists above it in many ways, kind of outside of it,

00:47:26.700 this, this group of, uh, genius autists, um, who will bolt onto either one of those as is needed,

00:47:35.180 but still have their own motivations. I think that that way of thinking about things is going to be

00:47:39.920 really important to see it, not as necessarily these people are like us so much as these people

00:47:46.720 will actually be able to help us on occasion. And that includes Peter Thiel, Elon Musk,

00:47:52.420 Mark Andreessen. But as long as you understand where their motives are, and even if it does get

00:47:59.100 out of our hands and into theirs, at least, you know, where it was going. And hopefully though,

00:48:03.180 I have a lot of faith in human nature that hopefully humans, most humans will be able to

00:48:10.400 maintain their humanity, their cultures, their spiritual traditions, and their continuity over

00:48:15.840 time. Uh, it's going to be very complicated, nothing that you can put in and, uh, just a few

00:48:20.720 minutes, but, um, the short answer to your question is those sorts of models, uh, those sorts of ambitions

00:48:27.900 to kind of break the back of the managerial state or break the back of the leftist dominance. Um,

00:48:37.280 it can very well make space for you, even if you don't, it, even if you don't necessarily adhere

00:48:43.920 to the kind of higher ideals of technologists. Yeah. Funny, funny enough, I've, I've, uh, just started

00:48:51.020 writing my next book, which is going to be on post human politics. Cause I think that is where we go.

00:48:57.140 We're going, whether we like it or not, uh, you know, hyper agents have been with us since the

00:49:01.620 beginning of time. Uh, but the technological ones I think are about to mingle with the spiritual ones

00:49:06.660 in, in ways that are, uh, going to be rather exciting. Uh, but, uh, but either way, these

00:49:12.160 questions are not, are not going away. Uh, they are going to be with us for a long time. Like you said,

00:49:17.760 you know, personally, I go out of my way to make sure I don't use AI when I'm writing or anything like

00:49:22.780 that. I want my voice to be my own. I want my thoughts to be my own as much as possible,

00:49:26.200 but I think at this point, if we aren't aware that everything we look at, everything we're

00:49:31.700 consuming, everything we're involved in is letting in, uh, another awareness, another thing,

00:49:37.160 and a possible hyper agent on a regular basis, that's going to influence and compel us into

00:49:41.280 specific actions. Uh, then we're missing a pretty big piece of, of the pie of kind of how power and,

00:49:47.260 and, and authority will be ordered in, in kind of, uh, the coming years. And I think that we have

00:49:52.320 to maintain that awareness. Uh, I think, like you said, it's important to not completely retreat

00:49:57.620 from the battlefield, knowing that if we leave, uh, entirely, then those that wield the weapons

00:50:02.760 will, will ultimately win it. But at the same time, to also guard the hearts of ourselves,

00:50:06.760 our families, the people that we care about against total possession, uh, by, by kind of things

00:50:11.580 that we don't yet understand. And again, I know people are, you know, mocking me right now. Oh,

00:50:15.940 what an idiot. You don't understand. I, you don't get it. That's fine. You, you don't,

00:50:19.860 you don't have to be a skeptic. Uh, uh, but, uh, at the same time, I think those realities are,

00:50:25.080 are pretty critical, uh, ultimately for us to continue to invest in, uh, Joe, we are going to

00:50:29.920 go to the couple of questions of the people real quick before we do. Is there anything you want

00:50:34.020 people to check out a last word that you have anything you want people to find that you're

00:50:38.560 working on? Uh, just to jump off of what you just said, the, the mockers in the crowd, Eliza,

00:50:45.860 the chat bot, Eliza has been around since the sixties. Let's just imagine for a moment that

00:50:51.240 these chat bots are not really any more advanced than Eliza. The big difference is that people

00:50:56.500 believe they are. And if you don't think that human belief shifts the currents of history,

00:51:02.060 I don't know what to tell you. Uh, you, you clearly have not looked into the history of religious

00:51:07.660 belief in the way in which it has directed human ideals and human societies. Uh, but this ain't

00:51:13.340 Eliza and anybody who says that it is, uh, ain't keeping up, you know, I get it garbage

00:51:17.660 in garbage out all that, but this ain't your grandpappy's chat bot. Um, I, jobot.xyz latest

00:51:26.460 article. The stargate is open one coming out in the very near future about actually kind of

00:51:32.400 more about the nuts and bolts of AI, uh, for the layman and, uh, my book, dark aeon transhumanism

00:51:40.700 and the war against humanity sign copies available at dark aeon.xyz or my site, joebot.xyz.

00:51:48.500 All right, guys, I definitely recommend that you go check out Joe's work. So make sure that you do

00:51:53.840 that. Let's go to the questions of the people real quick. Uh, death says, I think that China

00:51:58.880 is ahead of the U S because I noticed that there has been a massive mainline investment, uh, main

00:52:05.040 line investment to blocking slash censoring and social engineering. Uh, I, uh, what AI can learn,

00:52:12.160 uh, for geopolitical multicultural reasons. Do you think that, uh, China is ahead strictly because it

00:52:18.760 did not have the kind of, uh, politically correct, uh, safetyism the United States was imposing?

00:52:24.040 You know, that word political, politically correct, or that term really bugs me because

00:52:30.840 right now it's seen as politically correct means that you can't use a racial slur or call a transgender

00:52:37.520 person by their appropriate pronoun. But there's a lot of different kinds of political correctness.

00:52:43.520 Uh, if you're in a fundamentalist church, that's very politically incorrect to talk about evolution

00:52:50.940 and the facts behind it. And if you are in a Chinese communist government, it's very politically

00:52:57.400 incorrect to talk about Tiananmen square, to talk about the Uyghur encampments, uh, to talk about

00:53:05.140 the sharp eye surveillance program and so forth. And if you go to deep seeks are one and start asking

00:53:11.920 such questions, it will censor you. That might give you semi-accurate IQ, uh, statistics. It might give

00:53:20.020 you, um, semi-accurate descriptions of human sexual biology, but it is absolutely censored. So I, you

00:53:28.960 know, I, I, I kind of reject that, uh, out the gate. I think that in many ways, just like with human

00:53:34.540 beings and human societies, it's not, there is no real free speech anywhere. And to the extent that

00:53:41.900 somebody is going to say something really horrific about children or about it, to be honest, things that

00:53:47.760 I hold sacred, uh, I don't think that unbridled free speech, uh, is necessarily an ideal. Freer is

00:53:54.820 better. Uh, but there are many things that you shouldn't say. And if you do say them, uh, you

00:54:00.060 should at the very least have your ass kicked. Yeah. China has its own set of taboos and they might be

00:54:06.660 different from our political orthodoxy, but that doesn't mean that they are not imposing their own

00:54:11.940 restrictions, uh, in, in a similar manner. Uh, let's see here. Uh, the, uh, the metal mystic says,

00:54:20.720 uh, Musk said, quote, the only thing we won't have is meaning at bot utopia, uh, zero self-awareness

00:54:29.460 of implications. Proud of that. In fact, bots everywhere, humans with no meaning building mass

00:54:35.560 despair go Elon. Yeah. I'm not familiar with that specific quote, but yeah, to, to kind of dovetail

00:54:42.100 with what you said with Mark Andreessen, he's just like, well, yeah, nobody might have a jobs anymore,

00:54:46.480 but everything will be super cheap. Right. So it all kind of works out. It's like nobody, like people

00:54:50.760 need meaning in their lives. That's actually far more important than, you know, securing the cheapest

00:54:55.980 of, you know, junk from plastic junk from China. That's actually far, far more important at the end.

00:55:00.980 Yeah. I'd say the metal mystic has it right on. I, I, I believe I detect sarcasm with the go Elon

00:55:07.380 unless the metal mystic is staring into the void and loving it, uh, like nihilist Arby's. Um, yeah,

00:55:14.920 I, yeah, I agree. I mean, that was, and that was a really important point. You know, he's talking about

00:55:20.280 how, and a lot of these guys are talking about this, that it won't be universal basic income.

00:55:25.180 Um, it'll be universal high income. And with, you already see on the very superficial level,

00:55:31.440 if you want an image of something, you don't have to learn to draw and paint. You don't even have to

00:55:35.820 learn how to use a graphic design software. You just simply have to ask the bot to create it. And

00:55:40.560 maybe it's not what you exactly wanted, uh, but it is there for you. Same thing. If you want an essay,

00:55:47.000 uh, same thing. If you want the answers to your questions, even if they're not accurate and even if

00:55:50.760 they're not well written, AI is kind of a genie, it's kind of a, um, a cognitively impaired genie.

00:55:59.560 Uh, and, and I think that they just see it becoming smarter and smarter, but without a doubt,

00:56:03.200 even if let's say these pipe dreams come true, let's say that just like Satan promised Jesus in

00:56:08.580 the desert, that he could turn the stones to bread, that they literally take sand, make it think

00:56:13.640 and produce unlimited quantities of bread and wine and opiates, robots, sex bots, everything you could

00:56:21.620 possibly want. Right. Um, where is the meaning then? What are you striving for? What are you even

00:56:26.500 doing? Um, it's not, there's really not much of any, right. Except for just to kind of enjoy the ride

00:56:32.380 of this, the singularity, this, this sort of post-human ascent. Uh, and you know, Musk, yeah,

00:56:38.680 I get it, man. He's, he's not, he's a complex figure. I don't mean to demonize anybody just

00:56:43.420 simply to say that they may be full of some demons. Aren't we all? But I think that that

00:56:48.120 question of meaning it is, you know, as the metal mystic just pointed out, I think that's another

00:56:53.060 really important thing to think about. There are tons of people on earth right now already without

00:56:59.080 meaning. And the, the, the cultural push should be towards reaching out to those people and helping

00:57:07.300 them find ways towards meaning and find ways towards use not to demoralize them and not to

00:57:15.240 in actual reality, push them out of the picture so that they, they are ultimately meaningless. Uh, so

00:57:21.180 yeah, uh, I, to me, this demoralization for right now, cause we, these technologies can't just produce

00:57:28.400 everything you want, right? We don't have that radical abundance. We can't turn stones into bread.

00:57:34.040 Um, and so that demoralization is extremely dangerous because yeah, it would be bad if you

00:57:40.580 had a, some kind of singularity scenario where we were rendered obsolete, but also, and perhaps even

00:57:46.900 worse would be if you demoralized an entire generation and told them that the only thing they

00:57:52.300 would be good for is a prompt engineer. Uh, and then it turns out that these AIs and the robotics

00:57:58.380 are more like Eliza than they are God, then you've basically crippled them. And so, yeah,

00:58:05.420 that's gotta be a really important emphasis to try to build humans up and build up human

00:58:11.520 excellence now, no matter what they're promising. Yeah. It's, it's a kind of interesting thought to

00:58:17.880 pursue. Uh, what if AI is like, uh, an asymptote that you, you're, you're, but you're just going to

00:58:23.280 weaken humanity without ever actually reaching it. And so in the process, you just kind of

00:58:27.380 break down America, uh, a America and the wider world's ability to function while chasing, uh,

00:58:33.580 you know, a, a singularity you never quite reach. Uh, you know, yeah, that, that's an interesting one

00:58:39.200 to, uh, to think through there here. Uh, let's see here. A non-reviewer says, if AI gives us ninja

00:58:45.140 robots, at least we won't be bored. Very true though. Again, nightmares that could possibly ensue.

00:58:53.280 Uh, and then, uh, the metal mystic also says, not a fan of Claremont. They do advocate, uh, uh,

00:58:59.160 advocate a digital bill of rights. Seems like worthwhile allies. Uh, uh, uh, archo futurism

00:59:05.580 seems like a plausible alternative positive vision. We must put forth something.

00:59:12.920 Yeah. Um, yeah. Archo futurism, uh, Gillian Faye, if I'm pronouncing his name correctly. Uh,

00:59:19.900 it's a, I never read archo futurism. I've read passages that people have, have, uh, quoted.

00:59:26.640 And so I can't speak to it with any depth, but I, I heard Gillian Faye speak one time.

00:59:34.300 It's quite a funny story. I'll leave the funny stuff aside. And his, his vision of cultivating,

00:59:42.140 as he explained it then, first off cultivating a kind of, uh, white alliance, ethno-state

00:59:50.480 alliance of the global North against the, uh, predations of the global South, but doing so

00:59:55.680 using technology outwardly, but then also just due to, I don't, I feel, I fear I'm going to mangle

01:00:02.540 this, but just the way, what I took from it some decade plus ago, uh, was that certain technologies

01:00:09.900 are going to be necessary. Certain technologies are going to go forward, but it's not going to be

01:00:14.340 a techno utopia. And so you have to have some kind of redundancy. You have to, you know, he's French.

01:00:19.100 So I imagine that would involve, uh, you know, very sophisticated, uh, agriculture, hands-on

01:00:24.420 agriculture. And I imagine that that's also very, um, uh, deep and rich cultural production

01:00:30.380 that doesn't necessarily involve all these technologies again, without wanting to, I don't

01:00:35.440 want to get too far out over my skis on, on a book that I've never read and a concept that I haven't

01:00:40.120 contemplated that much, but the, the overall vision of technology being directed, especially

01:00:47.200 damaging technologies being directed outward and not inward so that you don't have the military

01:00:53.120 technologies that went into the smartphone being pumped into the brains of children every day.

01:00:57.600 I think the overall view that you need some sort of redundancy in the civilization, you

01:01:04.320 need people to keep knowing how to grow crops and raise animals and slaughter them. You need

01:01:10.640 people to know how to hunt. You need people to know how to talk to other people. You need

01:01:14.740 people to know how to do machining. You need people to do all of these things. And you especially

01:01:18.540 need people who know how to teach the next generation, how to be people and how to catechize

01:01:24.540 them. Um, yeah, I, that, that element, uh, I agree with, but again, I'm, I'm, I am not endorsing

01:01:30.940 Guiyan Faye. I'm probably not even pronouncing his name correctly. And, um, and I don't pretend

01:01:36.420 to speak for the vision of archaeofuturism, but I do think redundancy is going to be essential.

01:01:43.080 All right, guys, well, we're going to go ahead and wrap things up, but Joe, it has been great

01:01:47.420 talking with you. Like I said, if anybody has not checked out your work, they should most definitely

01:01:51.400 head that direction after we're done. And of course, if this is your first time on the channel,

01:01:56.260 go ahead and subscribe, click the bell notifications, all that YouTube stuff. So the algorithm can

01:02:01.060 program you with this show instead. Uh, make sure that if you would like to get these broadcasts

01:02:05.680 as podcasts, you subscribe to the Orma Mac and Tire show on your favorite podcast platform.

01:02:11.260 And if you would like to pick up my book, the total state, you can do so on both in print and now

01:02:16.880 in audio book as well. Thank you everybody for watching. And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - January 31, 2025

Will Trump's Tech Alliance End in AI Disaster？｜ Guest： Joe Allen ｜ 1⧸31⧸25

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