You're a Target of Fifth Generation Warfare｜ Guest： Charlemagne ｜ 4⧸4⧸25
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Summary
In this episode of the Oren McIntyre Show, host Oren McInnes is joined by author and YouTuber Will Chan to talk about how technology is changing warfare and how it's changing the way we think about war.
Transcript
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We hope you're enjoying your Air Canada flight.
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Fast-free Wi-Fi means I can make dinner reservations before we land.
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Wi-Fi available to Airplane members on Equipped Flight.
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And I think that while that's true about some aspects of the experience,
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There are very big changes in technology in warfare.
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They don't always come along very close to each other.
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But when they do, they make rapid and significant changes to what happens on the battlefield.
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And as we approach our new era of warfare, people have noticed that we have this all-encompassing information warfare
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that attaches itself to the conventional battle on the battlefield.
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It's not just about who is fighting, who is occupying what territory, or even how many casualties you're trading.
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It's often about winning hearts and minds of the people here and abroad, often through large amounts of propaganda and information manipulation.
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Joining me to talk about how that fundamentally changes warfare is Charlemagne, a great YouTuber and a great sub-stacker.
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Thanks for inviting me to discuss this important topic.
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Although the YouTuber bit is kind of maybe out of date at this point.
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Well, to be fair, when you do a video, it's usually on war.
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So at least the ones you release are relevant to the topic we're discussing today.
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But like I said, Charlemagne is well-read and researched on these topics.
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We're going to dive into this in just a moment.
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This episode of the Oren McIntyre Show is proudly sponsored by Consumers Research.
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You've heard about Larry Fink and BlackRock and ESG and all the ways that they're ruining your life,
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making grocery stores more expensive, making video games more woke.
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Well, Consumers Research has spent the last five years making Larry's life hell,
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Their work and its consequences have been profiled in the Washington Post,
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the New York Times, and most recently, Fox Business reporter Charlie Gasparono
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wrote a whole chapter in his book, Go Woke, Go Broke,
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on how effective they've been at dismantling BlackRock's ESG patronage scheme.
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He's making Larry Fink lose that last bit of hair on his balding head,
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and you should follow Will's work on X so you can laugh along with him.
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All right, Charlie, I mean, so like we were saying,
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technology can make pretty significant changes to the way the battlefield looks.
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You can think back to the invention of artillery
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and how that dramatically changes with mass drafts and everything,
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We can think about total mobilization after the Industrial Revolution
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and the way in which entire states are compelling not just their troops,
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but their economy, every aspect of their society towards war
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and things like World War I and especially World War II.
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And so we know that these are pretty significant
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and sometimes radical changes in the way that war is conducted.
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Today, however, while we certainly have more devastating explosive devices
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the biggest change seems to be one about information, influence, intelligence.
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One of the reasons I want to have this discussion is Eric Weinstein
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was talking about this in another name when he was at the ARC conference.
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It's something that's kind of rising in awareness for a lot of people on the scene.
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But can you give us a little introduction into fifth generation warfare?
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What makes it different from what we've seen before?
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Well, what primarily makes fifth generation warfare different
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from the other four generations of warfare is that the main battle space is the mind.
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And not just the mind of soldiers on the battlefield,
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but more often than not, the mind of civilians in various countries
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and even people not actually party to the conflict,
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but may be seen as targets by the belligerents for various reasons.
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Additionally, it involves non-state versus non-state actors,
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whereas the first three generations of warfare are specifically talking about state versus state
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conflicts, the fourth generation of warfare being state versus non-state actors.
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It should also be noted that one of the differences between fifth gen
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and the other generations is the debate over whether it even exists.
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This is a very new concept, and these are really academic concepts,
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and the scholars in these fields don't even agree necessarily exactly on what fifth generation
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So we're sort of discussing ongoing developments in how academics understand warfare.
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And that's another important point to highlight here is this generational theory of war,
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which is somewhat propagated by people like William S.
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Lind, although it doesn't necessarily originate with him.
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It originates in the 80s at certain think tanks in the United States.
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But this is an academic theory for us to understand warfare,
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and that is its main purpose is for us to understand historical and now current developments.
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It's not something that is the end-all, be-all theory of how warfare works,
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and it's not the point of these theories isn't to look back at the past
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and try and categorize every single development that's ever happened into these generations.
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The point is for us to understand better what is happening now
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and how has warfare now changed from warfare in the past.
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And if you like, we can go through the generations specifically just to lay out a bit more background.
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And one of the reasons that I wanted to do this is that ultimately the biggest thing about fifth-generation warfare,
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whether we want to put everything in a very stiff box and lock it in there,
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But I think it very much is happening, and I think we can point to it happening in our real lives.
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And I think it's why it's so important for the average person,
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even if they're never going to step foot into a traditional battlefield to recognize what's going on,
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because in many ways they are already involved in this conflict.
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They are already subject to these tactics, and they don't even know it.
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And so you end up in a scenario where you are actually a participant
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and at least an information side of a war that you are completely unaware is kind of being waged against you.
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So that's why I think this frame becomes important,
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not because we need to lock everything down into the current model and explain every single aspect,
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because I think it's important for people to be aware of these international forces
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and domestic forces, sadly, that are often acting on them.
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So do you want to just give a brief overview of the generations then,
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Sure, and we'll go quickly so that we can stay on the main topic,
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which is fifth-gen war and not the theory in general.
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So there is a war happening right now in the Ukraine,
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and this war is a second- and third-generation war based on how I would interpret the theory,
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and many parts of this theory are open to interpretation.
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So going to the beginning, what is first-generation warfare?
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William S. Lind would argue that first-generation warfare
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So everything from Alexander the Great to Napoleon is first-generation warfare.
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and the general concept of armies lining up on the field of battle
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and marching towards each other to having a sort of set-piece fight.
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That's really what first-generation warfare is.
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The second generation of warfare is exemplified by the developments of the First World War,
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in which the armies no longer marched at each other.
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and this is primarily defined by the development of massive firepower in artillery.
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So the second generation of warfare begins when technological advancements in firepower
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developed to the point where the styles of warfare in the first generation were no longer applicable.
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Even in the Napoleonic Wars, artillery was one of the centerpieces of battle,
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and yet it had not developed to the point where people would not march directly into the cannon fire.
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Obviously, you cannot do that in the First World War at all.
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And people like Lind, who developed much of this,
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would argue that the U.S. Army today is still second generation.
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The reason I mentioned the Ukraine War is because these generations aren't entirely sequential with each other.
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And although they're often regarded as developing out of technological advancements
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or through time passing, they don't necessarily work that way.
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Third generation warfare is different from second gen,
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which is characterized by artillery, firepower,
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very particular pre-planned doctrine and centralized control.
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one of the exemplars of this style of warfare would be the Wehrmacht in World War II.
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And you can think about the Battle of France, for example,
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as one of the pinnacles of this style of warfare,
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And it also taught third generation war encompasses quite a lot
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because it basically extends from the Second World War
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The Ukraine War is a third generation war and a second generation war.
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So this encompasses the Air Force, helicopters,
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Everything within there works within the frame of third generational war.
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Now, this is where the developments start to become a little more contested
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because this is where the sort of generational theory
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Fourth generational warfare was first defined back in the 80s, as I said,
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and the scholar William S. Lind was one of the progenitors of this.
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Fourth generational war, unlike the previous three I discussed,
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is characterized by state versus non-state actors.
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And here we can look at things like the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Now, even then, one could easily argue that insurgencies are the same as partisans.
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I would argue this myself, that let's say during the Napoleonic Wars in Spain,
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the Peninsular War, that was probably, in some part, a fourth generational war
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because where the term guerrilla originated, guerrilla, as we say in English.
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That is Napoleon's forces fighting non-state actors.
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So I would say that there was fourth generational warfare happening during the Napoleonic Wars
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in addition to second, and one could even argue, third generational war.
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One could argue that the Napoleonic Wars emphasized a lot of third generation elements
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And one could argue that World War I actually reset things back to the second generation
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So not to get too far into the historical examples, but hopefully that demonstrates how
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these generations are not purely sequential and there are elements of each generation
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Yeah, that's really important because, like you said, technological advancement certainly
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If you don't get the big advancements in artillery, you don't end up seeing the big moves from
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generation one to generation two, that kind of thing.
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However, non-state actors being involved in war is actually something that's existed throughout
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And so the fourth generation warfare, to some extent, has always been with us.
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Though I would argue that the dynamic that really defines the current understanding of
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fourth generation warfare is the level of access that many of those non-state actors have
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to professional arms in a way that may not have existed previously for other non-state actors.
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Not that, again, that's even a hard and fast rule, but I would say that that dynamic is probably
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But it is really important, as you point out there, to note that just because we start to see
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more of one style or some styles are tied to a technological advancement, doesn't mean we
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haven't seen variations of that style and that we might not see a continuum of things slide
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back towards state actors and then back towards non-state actors moving around rather than that
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being like a hard, you know, temporal sequential thing that occurs as we move through different
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Now, in fourth generational warfare in, let's say, Iraq and Afghanistan, and even the prior
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war in Afghanistan involving the Soviets, we still understand who the enemy is.
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The enemy is partisans or insurgents, and the fourth generation of war involves precision
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strikes and light infantry, but it's clear who both sides are.
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One side is a state actor, the other side is not, but it's clear who both sides are.
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In fifth generation warfare, this is not the case.
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Well, that depends on who you ask, but I would say it's primarily defined as an ongoing information
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war, and it is between primarily non-state actors, but it does tie back into state actors.
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And the enemies, and by extension, allies, are not well-defined or defined at all.
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So it is not even necessarily clear who the enemy is in the fifth generation of war.
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I would also say that the era of fifth generation war is, it begins with the initiation of this
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global fifth generation war that we are in right now, which happened, I would say, sometime
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after the end of the Cold War, perhaps after the end of the 20th century.
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Again, it doesn't really matter finding a very specific, tight starting point for this.
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But I think we can all agree at this point that there's a global fifth generation war happening,
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an information war that takes place primarily within the minds of people.
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And at the highest level, this is a war of transnational organizations against everyone else.
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Beneath that, you have state actors, such as the United States, China, Russia, Europe,
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who are a layer beneath these transnational organizations.
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And these are the state actors beneath the non-state actors of these transnationals that
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And a lot of fifth generation warfare originates from state actors.
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For example, taking a look at the war in Ukraine, if everyone, anyone who's looked at that
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war can recall that there was this big movie trailer for the Ukrainian counteroffensive in
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Isn't that kind of weird to just announce that you're going to attack in this big Marvel
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Well, the reason that happened is that is actually a fifth generation element of the war in Ukraine
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So the reason that this took place is because the perception of what is happening on the
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battlefield is actually as or more important than what is actually happening on the battlefield.
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The Ukrainian state and the American state wanted to present to non-state actors that
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The battle space is actually happening in the mind of people.
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So the perception of what was happening on the battlefield is at least as important as
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what was happening on the battlefield in first and second and third generation terms in that
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The battle is actually happening in the mind of Europeans, congressmen, corporations, everyone
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So that's a fifth generation element to an existing war.
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Now, that is only one example, and that involves state actors.
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But fifth generational warfare primarily involves non-state actors, private companies pursuing
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their own private interests, or even private organizations or individuals pursuing interests
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For example, a good example that you'll be familiar with is the Cigar Slam was actually a
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great example of fifth generation warfare, which might sound kind of trite to say, but that's
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There were two sides in that war, basically attempting to influence the thoughts and opinions across
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And the minds of those people is actually the battle space for private interests, either yours
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or AA's private interests in establishing control over a narrative.
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And that's what fifth generation warfare is also primarily characterized by.
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And as I said, at the highest level, the narrative is whether or not the world is going to follow
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this model of globalism under transnationals, or if we can see a return to state actors being
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Why don't you take that and give me another direction to run in?
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So, oh, and I just want to remind people, this is pre-taped.
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But unfortunately, we won't be able to answer them at the end.
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If you're looking to super chat, maybe save it for another day.
00:19:30.100
But yeah, I think that it's important to recognize, like you said, that there are elements of this
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fifth generation warfare, even in what is perhaps a more traditional state versus state conflict
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And one of the reasons for that is that even though this looks more like a conventional war
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than we've probably seen in a while, it's not really.
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And in the sense that Ukraine is not really fighting this war, like obviously the people
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of Ukraine are, the people who are putting themselves in harm's way, the men of Ukraine
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But the backing, the financial backing, the logistical backing, the intelligence backing,
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Everyone recognizes, I think at this point, pretty much that what this really is, is a transnational
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actor, it's the, it's NATO, while launching a proxy war through Ukraine into Russia.
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And in that moment, there's several critical pieces that I want to look at, because, you
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know, you think of something like, you know, yellow journalism and launching the Spanish-American
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It's not like propaganda hasn't existed, right?
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Like Lincoln leans heavily into the emancipation, you know, aspect of the civil war after he needs
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to gain the approval of other nations and try to drive them away from, you know, acknowledging
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the Confederacy, these kind of things that, the raisin detra for the war, the motivations
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for the war, the narrative behind the war has always been critical.
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So we don't want to pretend like this is the first time that has ever come up.
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I mean, we literally have ancient texts with long flowing speeches about justifying the
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So that, that's not, narratives in war are not new, but I think what changes especially
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is the way that that is done in kind of this fifth generation warfare tactic, because you
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need people to believe certain things about Ukraine and Russia and their relationship.
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You need to make sure that they don't understand dynamics in probably the Donbass, that they don't
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know about what has happened with the CIA in the Ukraine.
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You also, you know, I have avoided a lot of day to day reporting on events in Ukraine for
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the very simple fact that the information war is so intense that it's very difficult to
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I think at this point that Russia is winning, but for a while, even that was in question
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and you had so much different footage and different analysis is constantly an interest from both
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I think a lot of information that is very questionable, manipulated.
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And so you have the scenario where obviously you, you know that the war is only being operated
00:22:23.940
by Zelensky because he is basically a conduit for all this money and, and material and everything
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And so his most important role is not a battlefield commander.
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It's not a getting out there and, uh, raising, uh, the, the spirits of the troops or making
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His, his most important job is doing photo ops at, uh, you know, the, the wall street or,
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you know, the, at the trading bell in Congress, you know, making speeches.
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Uh, the war can be won or lost right there in the room with Trump because that's literally
00:22:59.720
And so, uh, there's a, there's a lot there, but my point being is that public relations
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aspect that, uh, you know, kowtowing to, uh, uh, multinational interests that, uh, being
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a, a real proxy for larger interest beyond your own nation, the need to constantly manipulate
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the information of the people who would support you.
00:23:19.900
Uh, those are all, I think pretty critical characteristics that again, while propaganda
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has always been part of a war, the constant ongoing need, uh, to probably update, obscure
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the situation and fight for the sympathies of the people who might be voting one way or
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another to keep the money flowing in and out of the war.
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Uh, I think those are the aspects that most people would recognize as something new or
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I'm glad you mentioned propaganda because one of the things we need to make clear is that
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fifth generational warfare isn't just propaganda.
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It's not just public relations or, or psyops or something like that.
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One of the key differences is let's again, look back at the Napoleonic Wars, many cartoons
00:24:04.420
are published, especially by the English mocking Napoleon and making him look silly and that
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In other wars, you can imagine leaflets being dropped for a plane.
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Third generation warfare even encompasses the concept of hearts and minds.
00:24:18.040
Uh, and this might involve actions from soldiers, uh, in their relations with the, the local
00:24:24.540
populace, but this is different from fifth generation warfare because these are singular
00:24:30.700
actions that are not engaging with the enemy on an informational level, right?
00:24:35.220
Fifth generational warfare involves direct information war, ongoing information war between
00:24:42.420
A leaflet drop or a political cartoon isn't really engaging directly with the opponent where in a
00:24:50.440
fifth generation war that is actually happening.
00:24:55.560
There's actually a fifth generation war happening right now for Greenland.
00:24:59.260
And this is actually a really good example of fifth gen war because we really don't know who the
00:25:07.600
There's a general idea that it's, it's like the U S versus Denmark, but is it really Denmark?
00:25:12.920
The United States is primarily, uh, engaging with in a fifth generation capacity?
00:25:19.740
What are the actual interests behind the U S annexing Greenland?
00:25:24.780
I mean, I don't think it's just that the U S wants more territory, right?
00:25:32.240
There are probably non-state actors behind this attempt at annexation.
00:25:37.480
If it even is that who knows, we don't actually know if the purpose of this fifth generation
00:25:48.180
And are there corporate interests behind potential resource exploitation that could happen?
00:25:59.280
And so this, this is a very good example of fifth generation war because it has all of
00:26:08.380
We don't really know why this territory is being fought over.
00:26:12.040
And we don't even know if that is the real goal or if it's facilitating some other outcome
00:26:18.640
Yeah, in a weird way, the, the kind of the post irony culture, uh, thing makes it even
00:26:24.140
more, uh, of an interesting dynamic because you can't even know whether to take it seriously
00:26:29.040
It's like our JD Vance and, uh, Donald Trump really planning to control this.
00:26:37.120
Is this a bargaining chip to try to create some other dynamics somewhere else?
00:26:43.400
And so, you know, a lot of people are like, well, maybe we're just trying to get Greenland
00:26:48.140
And while that sounds stupid, it's a, it's a way in which you can kind of, uh, prepare
00:26:54.220
people for a step that they might not otherwise take or otherwise consider, uh, simply by in
00:27:00.140
a way, you know, defanging it, uh, you know, making it less serious, making it feel like
00:27:07.820
But then one day you turn around and it's real and you'd never expected it much like
00:27:12.080
Trump being president of the United States in the first place.
00:27:14.540
And so you, you, there, there is that dynamic there where it's like, yeah, not only do we
00:27:18.560
not know the actors behind it, are there, you know, corporations or other interests that
00:27:23.160
are driving it, but we don't even know if the attempt is serious until real action
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00:28:01.540
Another really good example that involves non-state actors around the war in Ukraine.
00:28:07.780
We can take a look at, I'm sure a lot of viewers are familiar with Judge Napolitano's show.
00:28:13.480
And now he sort of has a collection of people who appear on his show and they sort of push
00:28:21.680
They recently, he and a few other people who feature on his show recently even got to interview
00:28:30.760
There's clearly a faction here that includes like people like Colonel McGregor, right?
00:28:42.140
They're clearly not acting on behalf of the U.S. government.
00:28:46.500
So they're not a state actor on the American side.
00:28:48.900
I don't think anyone would argue that they're, you know, Russian agents or something like
00:28:53.500
I'm sure a bunch of crazy leftists would argue that, but they're not acting on behalf of
00:29:02.300
We can see that there's some sort of faction here that has a certain narrative that they're
00:29:14.240
And again, so this is a, this is an aspect of fifth generational warfare that's happening
00:29:18.980
between non-state actors that isn't actually directly connected to anything.
00:29:23.680
As far as we can tell, obviously they're, they're also acting against other non-state
00:29:27.700
actors, basically the, the mainstream media who pushes their own narrative about the war
00:29:33.400
And, you know, one can argue from a sort of mold buggy and perspective, if you want that
00:29:37.300
the media is actually the state, but strictly speaking, the American media and the European
00:29:44.800
They are pushing narratives about the war, perhaps on behalf of the state, but they are
00:29:53.740
So one of the things that's very clear is that the gradient of warfare seems to be, and
00:30:01.680
It's not that we're always in a generation two and then, you know, we go to, we just go
00:30:15.300
When we had, you know, there were always conscripts, you know, there's always just people pulled
00:30:24.300
But for the most part, they tended to not be super useful due to just the realities of
00:30:30.220
close rank combat in, for much of history, you needed well-armored and well-drilled troops
00:30:39.600
But there's a huge dynamic of discipline and drill that really changed things.
00:30:45.860
And so it was really generally people who were well-drilled, well-equipped that were
00:30:52.200
You don't just have a lot of like farmers with pitchforks in most battles.
00:30:56.460
And so that means that battles tended to be between nobles or, you know, competing, you
00:31:02.580
know, different, I'm losing the name for feudal.
00:31:11.780
And it's stepped up, obviously, as we increase the ability to mass produce arms, you could
00:31:20.140
And so quantity, especially when you came to mass warfare, when it came to the state, being
00:31:26.260
able to provide large numbers of peoples with high quality armaments, that kind of thing,
00:31:32.620
And so we saw more and more of the state getting involved.
00:31:35.680
Now you need all the production in the state to turn to wartime production.
00:31:38.800
You need to draft as many of the war age men into the conflict.
00:31:44.160
Now we're in a moment where it seems like we're returning back to professional armies.
00:31:52.500
It is, you know, that's where the state actors are.
00:31:57.020
But the non-state actors are increasing in complexity.
00:31:59.480
They have access to large amounts of very dangerous weapons, that kind of thing.
00:32:04.420
And now we've moved to the point where you can launch, even non-state actors can
00:32:08.740
launch attacks in a very totalizing fashion on populations themselves when it comes to
00:32:15.080
information and manipulation, these type of things.
00:32:18.300
And so I'm wondering, what do you think about this continued push to the totalization of
00:32:24.760
Are we just going to be in a scenario that because war isn't confined to specific battlefields
00:32:30.020
and state actors at specific times that we are always in some form of low-grade conflict
00:32:36.200
because war is just ongoing and total, you know, for everyone at this point?
00:32:44.520
There's a book titled Unrestricted Warfare that is focused more on the Chinese state and its
00:32:52.320
But yes, that is one potential future of fifth generation warfare, that it is a sort
00:33:01.220
I tend to think that this particular global war will end at some point, but maybe fifth
00:33:07.060
Maybe it's just something that's always happening.
00:33:09.020
Certainly there are always going to be fifth generation style conflicts between smaller private
00:33:15.160
But currently it does seem that everyone on the planet who's connected to the fifth generation
00:33:20.000
war through the internet is involved to some extent with the war, because one of the aspects
00:33:24.580
of this war is, you know, the perception of Donald Trump, right?
00:33:27.780
This is a fifth generation conflict that's been going on for over 10 years now.
00:33:38.380
And it's involved in the entire Western world at least, right?
00:33:41.980
So every single Westerner who is aware that Donald Trump exists and is involved in a fifth
00:33:51.280
And if you have been convinced, for example, about certain things about Donald Trump by
00:33:57.420
the mainstream media, you're actually a casualty, right?
00:34:03.300
You're a casualty of fifth generation war if one side convinces you to believe certain things
00:34:11.460
more or less irrevocably based on their information war that they're conducting against you to achieve
00:34:19.100
So we really need to think of fifth generation warfare, not again, not just as propaganda
00:34:24.120
or psyops, but that there are actual casualties in the conflict.
00:34:27.960
And when you come to when you succumb to certain ends that one of the belligerent sides is attempting
00:34:35.620
to achieve, you're actually a casualty of that conflict.
00:34:38.440
And again, once you rack up enough casualties, once you attrite the opposing side to the right
00:34:48.180
There's been no success on that front, no final success on that front in this aspect of the
00:34:59.300
Neither side has attrited the other side's people.
00:35:03.400
The minds of their people have not been attrited enough in order to succeed in the victory,
00:35:12.060
And after the election, it seemed like there was a lot of demoralization of the left.
00:35:17.280
After Trump's victory, you could actually consider demoralized leftists as casualties of fifth
00:35:23.560
generation warfare, casualties that maybe some of us even helped inflict it.
00:35:28.580
Because merely by having these conversations, we are effectively participants in the fifth
00:35:33.500
generation war for either our own private interests or the interests of some other faction
00:35:40.480
Even though there's no guns involved, there's no actual death involved, the battlefield is
00:35:47.120
And again, it's different from propaganda because it's not simply a one-to-one engagement.
00:35:54.080
You know, you might propagandize your own soldiers against the Persians or something back in the
00:35:59.980
War of Alexander the Great or the Wars of Caesar, you'll propagandize your soldiers against the
00:36:06.680
That's different because there's no engagement with the propaganda of the other side in a
00:36:13.620
Physically, that would be impossible for the Greeks to even propagandize the Persians,
00:36:19.600
How would you conduct a fifth generation warfare against, you know, Xerxes or Darius or something
00:36:28.240
So the fifth generation warfare is enabled by technology and it exists because there is
00:36:35.420
the potential for constant fighting over the minds of individual people tailored to those
00:36:44.220
There's not even necessarily generic propaganda or information being sent to the public at
00:36:53.160
There's actually highly targeted information being sent to specific individuals on the individual
00:36:58.760
level, specifically designed to win the battle for your mind.
00:37:03.800
And again, being quote-unquote like red-pilled or something doesn't mean you're immune to
00:37:13.040
this or that you've won the fifth generation warfare against yourself because it's ongoing
00:37:21.820
There are many, many ends being pursued by many different actors against you at all times.
00:37:27.420
This could even just be getting you to buy stupid products from Temu or something, right,
00:37:33.240
This could be considered a type of fifth generational warfare that's happening.
00:37:37.840
So being aware of it enables you to put up certain defenses and notice that operations
00:37:46.460
are being conducted against you, but it doesn't make you immune from it.
00:37:50.300
Primarily, though, it is important for fifth generation warfare for the casualties or the
00:37:56.340
targets to not actually be aware that it's being conducted against them.
00:37:59.620
So it's important to talk about fifth generational warfare in terms of warfare itself and not
00:38:08.900
just propaganda so that people can understand that there is actually a war being conducted
00:38:14.060
against them and that they are legitimately the actual battlefield, right?
00:38:19.560
For example, again, going back to Canada or Greenland, the changing of national borders can be done
00:38:27.420
It could be done entirely through fifth generation means merely by convincing enough people to do
00:38:33.900
not necessarily the same thing, but the right things to facilitate that outcome.
00:38:38.720
Yeah, and it's very interesting that this can be wrapped in necessarily things that may or may not
00:38:50.140
When you're constantly exchanging entertainment ideas and products, as you point out,
00:38:54.280
these things can be so deeply intertwined that you don't even notice.
00:38:57.360
And, you know, there are areas, for instance, I think Alexander Dugan is doing really interesting
00:39:03.720
I think he's probably one of the most interesting philosophers that is contemporary, to be sure.
00:39:09.440
That said, he's very obviously also a Russian propagandist, you know, and really an unapologetic
00:39:16.100
And so you have to be very aware if you're trying to understand anything that he's doing that
00:39:23.040
deeply, you know, entwined with every bit of it is really his political project and, you
00:39:30.580
And so those are all things that, you know, whether it be consumer items or entertainment
00:39:35.200
or even philosophical ideas, that there's this constant intertwining between these things.
00:39:41.100
And I wonder, you know, a big part of the reason that it's so important to launch these
00:39:47.760
attacks into the hearts and minds of the people to engage in this fifth generation warfare and
00:39:53.980
make the mind the battlefield for a lot of people, a big reason for that is the need for
00:40:01.200
popular will to legitimize political power in most of these nations.
00:40:08.500
Now, there would probably still be a reason to manipulate the public anyway, but that is a
00:40:13.240
pretty significant thing that, you know, the fact that people caring about this and supporting this
00:40:18.840
stuff is critical to the maintenance of the ability of both state and non-state actors to do
00:40:24.260
what they want on a battlefield in real life or to, you know, reach goals in kind of a mental model
00:40:32.340
And so I wonder at some point, could we get to the point where people simply burn out?
00:40:40.180
People are so, their minds are being fought over so continuously that, and faith in, you
00:40:46.780
know, democracy and kind of, you know, popular sovereignty start to wane, you know, is there
00:40:52.120
a scenario in which the constant need to battle for, you know, these hearts and minds, the constant
00:40:59.840
need to manipulate, you know, the mental space of different people in different nations becomes
00:41:06.440
less because you don't, you won't be as heavily disrupting the machine of, you know, these
00:41:12.220
different interests that ultimately rely very heavily on public opinion.
00:41:16.260
So I don't know if that makes sense, but just, you know, do you think there's a point at
00:41:19.520
which, like, the burnout of being so intensely manipulated along these lines could lead to
00:41:26.080
the point where it becomes less efficient or less necessary because, like, people just can't
00:41:31.940
be made to care about every conflict every moment of every day, and eventually they just
00:41:37.360
turn it off, burn out, fade away, that kind of thing.
00:41:39.600
I do not think that, in general, fifth generation warfare can reach a burnout phase because you
00:41:49.960
would basically have to have most people on the planet sort of disconnect from the internet
00:41:53.780
and information at that point, which could be seen as a victory condition by one faction
00:41:58.280
or the other in fifth generation war itself, but I don't really see an outcome where people
00:42:03.780
just get tired of information in general. Now, it's more useful to talk about this at the
00:42:10.760
individual level rather than talking about fifth generational warfare coming to an end
00:42:15.280
in a general case. For the individual, fifth generation warfare can come to an end.
00:42:21.080
It's important to not overgeneralize the concept and realize that fifth generation warfare begins
00:42:27.560
and ends with the individual's connection to the information that's being used against them
00:42:32.660
to convince them of a certain thing. So, you can end fifth generation warfare for yourself
00:42:38.320
if you choose to throw an act of will. Now, in order to entirely separate yourself from it,
00:42:44.620
though, it would really require a complete disconnection from the global information system
00:42:49.560
of the internet, which is really not possible. So, I don't foresee any, like, real end of
00:42:54.500
fifth generation warfare. It's also pertinent to bring up Alexander Dugan. That's another
00:43:00.600
great example of fifth generation warfare because Dugan and Eurasianism and other ideas that he has
00:43:06.920
about fourth political theory are heavily used in aspects of the global fifth generation war that's
00:43:14.100
happening right now. And that's an interesting case because Dugan himself isn't waging a fifth
00:43:20.160
generation war consciously against Americans. He might be. I tend to think intellectuals are mostly just
00:43:33.040
interested in their intellectual activities, but you're right. He might be. At the very least,
00:43:39.260
his ideas are being used and have been used for a long time against the West and against Americans.
00:43:44.960
Basically, when Americans become convinced of Eurasianism, for example, they're fundamentally
00:43:51.420
being turned against their own country. And the thing is, it doesn't matter when it comes to these
00:43:57.500
ideas. It doesn't matter if you really believe them, if you're convinced in a perfectly logical way.
00:44:02.860
It doesn't matter how smart you are. It doesn't matter how smart you think you are. If you have been,
00:44:07.440
for example, turned into a Eurasianist as an American by listening to Alexander Dugan or even
00:44:14.980
as a European, basically you are a casualty of fifth generation warfare. It does not matter how
00:44:22.400
intelligent you are, right? The point is the outcome. So for some people, they might be convinced
00:44:29.960
of Eurasianism by one way, and that's one way to turn them against their own country. You might be
00:44:36.680
convinced to turn against your own country or people by reading René Guénard and converting to
00:44:43.400
Islam and moving to Turkey or something. That's another way that effectively the same outcome
00:44:50.140
can be achieved of demoralization. And it can be used by the same parties, can be used by different
00:44:57.380
parties. We can look at, again, Julius Evola is another great example that can turn Americans strongly
00:45:04.060
against their own society. These are all different weapons. And it doesn't matter how much you've
00:45:09.480
read. It doesn't matter how smart you are. If the outcome is achieved, then you become a casualty
00:45:15.600
in the conflict related to the interests of that party. And obviously these things can work in the
00:45:20.880
reverse direction where you could be turned into some sort of American imperialist, like neocon 2.0 type
00:45:31.000
person, if you kind of revert in the other direction. And that's going to serve the interests
00:45:37.980
of different parties. And those parties might achieve that outcome in their own ways that
00:45:43.120
they're not arguing directly against Dugan or Evola or someone else, right? But they're going to
00:45:50.320
propagandize you in a certain way to turn you into someone who supports American imperialism abroad.
00:45:56.120
Maybe you think, for example, Europe should remain under the thumb of the United States in
00:46:01.600
perpetuity because that's great for America. These are all different outcomes that can be
00:46:06.040
achieved through fifth generation warfare that's happening against you. And simply being convinced
00:46:12.420
of it through your logical reasoning or whatever, a lot of the listeners are going to be reading all
00:46:18.500
these books. They'll be reading Schmidt, Pareto, whatever. Simply the fact that you put in the
00:46:23.660
hard work and believe that you've convinced yourself of something doesn't mean that you have not become
00:46:35.880
So my last question is going to be about sovereignty. With fourth generation warfare, obviously the nature of
00:46:43.560
sovereignty starts to change. We start to see the non-state actors get involved, recognizing who's on what
00:46:51.640
side, when a state's sovereignty is being impinged by another state, or is it a non-state actor, or is a non-state
00:46:58.400
actor who is operating under the interest of another state? These things start to blur the lines. Everyone isn't
00:47:05.260
wearing uniforms. We're not sure, excuse me, we're not sure necessarily who's in charge and these kind of things in any
00:47:13.100
given moment. You know, this was a hard enough jump for a lot of people with a global war on terror because
00:47:19.780
we just didn't have these classic understandings of when a conflict was occurring, when it started,
00:47:26.320
when it ended, what the goals were. You could argue that that has not existed in things like Vietnam as
00:47:30.960
well, but very much so this was thrown up in the air in fourth generation warfare. In fifth generation
00:47:36.760
warfare, every avenue of influence and information becomes a possible breach of sovereignty, right? If I
00:47:46.240
don't secure my digital space as the United States, then I am opening myself up to constant fifth
00:47:53.660
generation warfare. And so the question becomes, you know, a lot of us are against censorship, especially
00:48:00.140
because our own regimes hate us so much. You know, for a very long time, the United States government
00:48:05.620
hated the American people far more than it hated Russia or China or anyone else. And so it was,
00:48:13.020
you know, we wanted to keep those lines of communications open. We didn't trust the regime
00:48:17.160
to ultimately filter what was coming in from the outside because they were more likely to filter out
00:48:23.600
the things that would help us than the things that would hurt us. But at some point you recognize that
00:48:28.280
any state that's not kind of taking control of its digital space is losing. And so whether you or I
00:48:35.320
like it or not, whether it's politically advantageous for our project or that kind of thing, I think
00:48:40.100
there is an important recognition that fifth generation warfare also changes the concept of
00:48:47.680
sovereignty and that states that don't generate a plan for digital sovereignty and information
00:48:54.180
sovereignty are just as likely to get wrecked as a state that doesn't have a plan to like repel an
00:48:59.760
invasion. Yeah, absolutely. Right now, the way the internet works in the West is that there's a
00:49:07.620
totally free flowing open, open flow of information between everyone. Now, some things are censored.
00:49:15.160
Most censorship is done indirectly. It's not that, you know, a website might be banned, but maybe it just
00:49:19.840
won't ever show up in search results. So you can't find it. Let's take a look at North Korea, for example.
00:49:24.520
It has totally closed itself off from information and it has protected its regime that way. It has
00:49:31.120
maintained its sovereignty over its territory by not allowing information to come out. So effectively
00:49:38.200
North Korea has bypassed or defeated or avoided most aspects of fifth generation warfare,
00:49:47.220
a fifth generation war being conducted against its party by simply turning off. Right. So
00:49:54.460
that's a good example of actually doing exactly what you stated. Now, obviously,
00:50:01.780
the West and other countries, you know, shouldn't go just North Korea mode and completely lock down
00:50:07.020
everything. But there has to be a certain acknowledgement from the state and action on
00:50:12.480
the state if you're interested in preserving, you know, an American state at all, which, you know,
00:50:18.020
that whole idea is up in the air and the concept of fifth generation war and the transnational
00:50:23.340
war we're in. But states do need to protect themselves from certain informational influences
00:50:29.320
that may come from state actors or even non-state actors. Like, for example, North Korea protects
00:50:34.740
itself from tourists, right? Tourists are not allowed to do certain things. When an American
00:50:39.080
tourist goes there, like not every single one of them, some sort of CIA plant who's there to
00:50:43.180
propagandize. But that person will inevitably introduce information to the system. And the North
00:50:48.860
Koreans understand that this is actually a threat to their system, that that is effectively these
00:50:54.860
tourists are effectively enemy combatants in a certain way, because they are invading the
00:51:00.620
information space with their own Western ideas. So yes, states do resist fifth generation warfare,
00:51:07.380
even if they don't understand it in those terms, right? Does North Korea think in like fifth generation
00:51:12.020
warfare terms? Probably not. But looking at it, we can comprehend that that is exactly what's
00:51:17.300
happening there. All right. Well, let's go ahead and wrap this one up. Obviously, this is a very
00:51:23.260
deep topic. We could go on for quite a while. But like I said, Charlie has done good work on many
00:51:29.520
different conflicts. So if you want to check out his content, I know he says he's not a YouTuber that
00:51:33.660
much anymore, but he's got a good YouTube channel with plenty of good backlog. Is there anything you have
00:51:39.180
coming up with a sub stack or anything you want to point people towards?
00:51:42.620
Well, my sub stack is titled Neo Reactor, and you can follow it at charlemagne.substack.com, where I do
00:51:50.900
mostly book reviews. And then I also do content for the Old Glory Club, which I'm also a founding member
00:51:56.720
of. That's the Old Glory Club on YouTube. We do weekly live streams on Thursday. We also have three
00:52:04.260
sub stack articles a week on the Old Glory Club sub stack. And you can also find our website at
00:52:11.240
theoldgloryclub.com if you're interested in joining a pro-America fraternal society among American men.
00:52:20.960
Yeah. And now you guys are running these conferences that sell out in a moment's notice. So high demand,
00:52:29.180
very exclusive. So get on the ground floor while you can if you want to involve yourself with the OGC.
00:52:35.240
All right, guys. Well, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up. Like I said, if it's your first time
00:52:40.040
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00:52:45.880
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