The Auron MacIntyre Show - April 04, 2025


You're a Target of Fifth Generation Warfare｜ Guest： Charlemagne ｜ 4⧸4⧸25


Episode Stats


Length

53 minutes

Words per minute

161.48329

Word count

8,602

Sentence count

417

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Hate speech

19

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of the Oren McIntyre Show, host Oren McInnes is joined by author and YouTuber Will Chan to talk about how technology is changing warfare and how it's changing the way we think about war.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 We hope you're enjoying your Air Canada flight.
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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?
00:00:31.700 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.
00:00:33.460 I am Oren McIntyre.
00:00:36.100 They say that war never changes.
00:00:39.060 And I think that while that's true about some aspects of the experience,
00:00:44.400 it's certainly not true about the technology.
00:00:46.860 There are very big changes in technology in warfare.
00:00:50.500 They don't always come along very close to each other.
00:00:53.200 But when they do, they make rapid and significant changes to what happens on the battlefield.
00:00:58.800 And as we approach our new era of warfare, people have noticed that we have this all-encompassing information warfare
00:01:07.760 that attaches itself to the conventional battle on the battlefield.
00:01:12.140 It's not just about who is fighting, who is occupying what territory, or even how many casualties you're trading.
00:01:20.100 It's often about winning hearts and minds of the people here and abroad, often through large amounts of propaganda and information manipulation.
00:01:28.380 Joining me to talk about how that fundamentally changes warfare is Charlemagne, a great YouTuber and a great sub-stacker.
00:01:37.300 Thanks for coming on, man.
00:01:38.080 Thanks.
00:01:39.640 Thanks for inviting me to discuss this important topic.
00:01:43.000 Although the YouTuber bit is kind of maybe out of date at this point.
00:01:46.720 I guess it's true.
00:01:47.760 I might release a video soon.
00:01:50.960 Yeah.
00:01:51.140 Well, to be fair, when you do a video, it's usually on war.
00:01:54.500 It's updates on war.
00:01:55.580 So at least the ones you release are relevant to the topic we're discussing today.
00:02:00.740 But like I said, Charlemagne is well-read and researched on these topics.
00:02:05.120 We're going to dive into this in just a moment.
00:02:07.700 Before we do, let's hear from today's sponsor.
00:02:10.520 Hey, everybody.
00:02:11.220 This episode of the Oren McIntyre Show is proudly sponsored by Consumers Research.
00:02:16.620 You've heard about Larry Fink and BlackRock and ESG and all the ways that they're ruining your life,
00:02:22.520 making grocery stores more expensive, making video games more woke.
00:02:26.620 Well, Consumers Research has spent the last five years making Larry's life hell,
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00:02:33.980 Their work and its consequences have been profiled in the Washington Post,
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00:02:42.540 wrote a whole chapter in his book, Go Woke, Go Broke,
00:02:46.580 on how effective they've been at dismantling BlackRock's ESG patronage scheme.
00:02:51.900 He's making Larry Fink lose that last bit of hair on his balding head,
00:02:55.440 and you should follow Will's work on X so you can laugh along with him.
00:02:59.980 His handle is at W-I-L-L-H-I-L-D.
00:03:04.660 So give him a follow.
00:03:05.820 Again, that's at W-I-L-L-H-I-L-D on X.
00:03:13.300 All right, Charlie, I mean, so like we were saying,
00:03:15.680 technology can make pretty significant changes to the way the battlefield looks.
00:03:19.740 You can think back to the invention of artillery
00:03:21.820 and the way that changes how troops maneuver.
00:03:25.240 We can think about mass production of firearms
00:03:27.800 and how that dramatically changes with mass drafts and everything,
00:03:32.100 the way that wars are fought.
00:03:34.000 We can think about total mobilization after the Industrial Revolution
00:03:37.880 and the way in which entire states are compelling not just their troops,
00:03:43.160 but their economy, every aspect of their society towards war
00:03:47.220 and things like World War I and especially World War II.
00:03:50.380 And so we know that these are pretty significant
00:03:52.820 and sometimes radical changes in the way that war is conducted.
00:03:57.380 Today, however, while we certainly have more devastating explosive devices
00:04:02.120 and aircraft, these type of things,
00:04:05.140 the biggest change seems to be one about information, influence, intelligence.
00:04:10.660 And in many ways, people have recognized this,
00:04:12.980 have been given different names.
00:04:15.480 One of the reasons I want to have this discussion is Eric Weinstein
00:04:18.180 was talking about this in another name when he was at the ARC conference.
00:04:22.800 It's something that's kind of rising in awareness for a lot of people on the scene.
00:04:27.740 But can you give us a little introduction into fifth generation warfare?
00:04:32.260 What makes it different from what we've seen before?
00:04:36.320 Well, what primarily makes fifth generation warfare different
00:04:39.900 from the other four generations of warfare is that the main battle space is the mind.
00:04:46.760 And not just the mind of soldiers on the battlefield,
00:04:49.300 but more often than not, the mind of civilians in various countries
00:04:54.320 and even people not actually party to the conflict,
00:04:58.260 but may be seen as targets by the belligerents for various reasons.
00:05:02.840 Additionally, it involves non-state versus non-state actors,
00:05:07.020 whereas the first three generations of warfare are specifically talking about state versus state
00:05:12.300 conflicts, the fourth generation of warfare being state versus non-state actors.
00:05:18.280 So those are some of the key differences.
00:05:20.240 It should also be noted that one of the differences between fifth gen
00:05:23.060 and the other generations is the debate over whether it even exists.
00:05:28.020 This is a very new concept, and these are really academic concepts,
00:05:34.420 and the scholars in these fields don't even agree necessarily exactly on what fifth generation
00:05:39.640 warfare is and whether or not it even exists.
00:05:41.960 So we're sort of discussing ongoing developments in how academics understand warfare.
00:05:47.360 And that's another important point to highlight here is this generational theory of war,
00:05:51.960 which is somewhat propagated by people like William S.
00:05:55.740 Lind, although it doesn't necessarily originate with him.
00:05:58.080 It originates in the 80s at certain think tanks in the United States.
00:06:02.940 But this is an academic theory for us to understand warfare,
00:06:07.800 and that is its main purpose is for us to understand historical and now current developments.
00:06:14.100 It's not something that is the end-all, be-all theory of how warfare works,
00:06:19.160 and it's not the point of these theories isn't to look back at the past
00:06:23.600 and try and categorize every single development that's ever happened into these generations.
00:06:28.720 The point is for us to understand better what is happening now
00:06:32.420 and how has warfare now changed from warfare in the past.
00:06:36.200 And if you like, we can go through the generations specifically just to lay out a bit more background.
00:06:40.960 Yeah, I think that's a good idea.
00:06:43.560 And one of the reasons that I wanted to do this is that ultimately the biggest thing about fifth-generation warfare,
00:06:50.760 whether we want to put everything in a very stiff box and lock it in there,
00:06:55.940 I understand that concern.
00:06:57.780 But I think it very much is happening, and I think we can point to it happening in our real lives.
00:07:03.160 And I think it's why it's so important for the average person,
00:07:05.740 even if they're never going to step foot into a traditional battlefield to recognize what's going on,
00:07:10.960 because in many ways they are already involved in this conflict.
00:07:14.020 They are already subject to these tactics, and they don't even know it.
00:07:17.720 And so you end up in a scenario where you are actually a participant
00:07:20.840 and at least an information side of a war that you are completely unaware is kind of being waged against you.
00:07:27.760 So that's why I think this frame becomes important,
00:07:30.220 not because we need to lock everything down into the current model and explain every single aspect,
00:07:36.240 because I think it's important for people to be aware of these international forces
00:07:41.200 and domestic forces, sadly, that are often acting on them.
00:07:45.820 So do you want to just give a brief overview of the generations then,
00:07:49.840 so people understand the context?
00:07:52.700 Sure, and we'll go quickly so that we can stay on the main topic,
00:07:55.500 which is fifth-gen war and not the theory in general.
00:07:58.360 So there is a war happening right now in the Ukraine,
00:08:02.220 and this war is a second- and third-generation war based on how I would interpret the theory,
00:08:08.040 and many parts of this theory are open to interpretation.
00:08:11.880 So going to the beginning, what is first-generation warfare?
00:08:14.780 This is basically ancient warfare.
00:08:17.780 William S. Lind would argue that first-generation warfare
00:08:21.260 goes all the way up into the First World War.
00:08:24.020 So everything from Alexander the Great to Napoleon is first-generation warfare.
00:08:30.100 And this is really exemplified by the phalanx
00:08:32.540 and the general concept of armies lining up on the field of battle
00:08:36.220 and marching towards each other to having a sort of set-piece fight.
00:08:39.620 That's really what first-generation warfare is.
00:08:43.140 The second generation of warfare is exemplified by the developments of the First World War,
00:08:50.560 in which the armies no longer marched at each other.
00:08:55.200 They were stationary in trenches,
00:08:57.020 and this is primarily defined by the development of massive firepower in artillery.
00:09:03.580 So the second generation of warfare begins when technological advancements in firepower
00:09:09.560 developed to the point where the styles of warfare in the first generation were no longer applicable.
00:09:15.240 Even in the Napoleonic Wars, artillery was one of the centerpieces of battle,
00:09:19.400 and yet it had not developed to the point where people would not march directly into the cannon fire.
00:09:25.160 Obviously, you cannot do that in the First World War at all.
00:09:28.860 So this is where the second generation begins.
00:09:30.920 And people like Lind, who developed much of this,
00:09:35.460 would argue that the U.S. Army today is still second generation.
00:09:39.900 This is an important note.
00:09:41.220 The reason I mentioned the Ukraine War is because these generations aren't entirely sequential with each other.
00:09:46.620 They happen in tandem with each other.
00:09:49.600 And although they're often regarded as developing out of technological advancements
00:09:54.580 or through time passing, they don't necessarily work that way.
00:09:59.920 So let's move on to third generation warfare.
00:10:03.760 Third generation warfare is different from second gen, 1.00
00:10:07.840 which is characterized by artillery, firepower,
00:10:10.640 very particular pre-planned doctrine and centralized control.
00:10:16.280 Third generation warfare emphasizes maneuver,
00:10:19.780 stealth, combined arms.
00:10:21.760 It's more flexible.
00:10:23.400 And this, and it favors the initiative.
00:10:26.080 And when talking about third generation war,
00:10:29.240 one of the exemplars of this style of warfare would be the Wehrmacht in World War II.
00:10:33.980 And you can think about the Battle of France, for example,
00:10:36.640 as one of the pinnacles of this style of warfare,
00:10:40.000 in contrast to second generational war.
00:10:43.780 And it also taught third generation war encompasses quite a lot
00:10:47.240 because it basically extends from the Second World War
00:10:50.080 all the way up until even now.
00:10:52.360 The Ukraine War is a third generation war and a second generation war.
00:10:56.600 So this encompasses the Air Force, helicopters,
00:11:03.160 even nuclear strategic doctrine.
00:11:05.460 Everything within there works within the frame of third generational war.
00:11:09.900 Finally, let's get to fourth generational war. 0.81
00:11:13.380 Now, this is where the developments start to become a little more contested
00:11:18.000 because this is where the sort of generational theory
00:11:21.540 that we're talking about really begins.
00:11:23.680 Fourth generational warfare was first defined back in the 80s, as I said,
00:11:28.820 and the scholar William S. Lind was one of the progenitors of this.
00:11:32.720 Fourth generational war, unlike the previous three I discussed, 0.94
00:11:36.500 is characterized by state versus non-state actors.
00:11:40.220 And here we can look at things like the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
00:11:43.640 Now, even then, one could easily argue that insurgencies are the same as partisans.
00:11:50.700 I would argue this myself, that let's say during the Napoleonic Wars in Spain,
00:11:57.240 the Peninsular War, that was probably, in some part, a fourth generational war
00:12:02.240 because where the term guerrilla originated, guerrilla, as we say in English.
00:12:07.640 And that is really an insurgency, right?
00:12:10.000 That is Napoleon's forces fighting non-state actors.
00:12:12.940 So I would say that there was fourth generational warfare happening during the Napoleonic Wars
00:12:19.040 in addition to second, and one could even argue, third generational war.
00:12:23.760 One could argue that the Napoleonic Wars emphasized a lot of third generation elements
00:12:29.500 in the core system.
00:12:31.860 And one could argue that World War I actually reset things back to the second generation 0.72
00:12:37.360 because of the artillery developments.
00:12:38.880 So not to get too far into the historical examples, but hopefully that demonstrates how
00:12:44.120 these generations are not purely sequential and there are elements of each generation
00:12:49.080 that exist simultaneously.
00:12:52.160 Yeah, that's really important because, like you said, technological advancement certainly
00:12:57.860 drives a significant change in these styles.
00:13:01.780 If you don't get the big advancements in artillery, you don't end up seeing the big moves from
00:13:06.380 generation one to generation two, that kind of thing.
00:13:08.520 However, non-state actors being involved in war is actually something that's existed throughout
00:13:14.160 history.
00:13:15.960 And so the fourth generation warfare, to some extent, has always been with us.
00:13:21.940 Though I would argue that the dynamic that really defines the current understanding of
00:13:27.900 fourth generation warfare is the level of access that many of those non-state actors have
00:13:33.540 to professional arms in a way that may not have existed previously for other non-state actors.
00:13:40.060 Not that, again, that's even a hard and fast rule, but I would say that that dynamic is probably
00:13:45.260 changes things a little bit.
00:13:47.240 But it is really important, as you point out there, to note that just because we start to see
00:13:53.060 more of one style or some styles are tied to a technological advancement, doesn't mean we
00:13:59.580 haven't seen variations of that style and that we might not see a continuum of things slide
00:14:04.380 back towards state actors and then back towards non-state actors moving around rather than that
00:14:09.960 being like a hard, you know, temporal sequential thing that occurs as we move through different
00:14:15.540 stages of warfare.
00:14:18.420 Exactly.
00:14:19.300 Now, in fourth generational warfare in, let's say, Iraq and Afghanistan, and even the prior 0.87
00:14:25.440 war in Afghanistan involving the Soviets, we still understand who the enemy is.
00:14:30.660 The enemy is partisans or insurgents, and the fourth generation of war involves precision
00:14:37.680 strikes and light infantry, but it's clear who both sides are.
00:14:41.860 One side is a state actor, the other side is not, but it's clear who both sides are.
00:14:45.540 In fifth generation warfare, this is not the case.
00:14:49.000 So what is fifth generation warfare?
00:14:50.840 Well, that depends on who you ask, but I would say it's primarily defined as an ongoing information
00:14:58.160 war, and it is between primarily non-state actors, but it does tie back into state actors.
00:15:06.420 And the enemies, and by extension, allies, are not well-defined or defined at all.
00:15:12.880 So it is not even necessarily clear who the enemy is in the fifth generation of war.
00:15:18.340 I would also say that the era of fifth generation war is, it begins with the initiation of this 0.98
00:15:27.440 global fifth generation war that we are in right now, which happened, I would say, sometime
00:15:33.520 after the end of the Cold War, perhaps after the end of the 20th century.
00:15:39.980 Again, it doesn't really matter finding a very specific, tight starting point for this.
00:15:47.080 But I think we can all agree at this point that there's a global fifth generation war happening, 0.99
00:15:51.660 an information war that takes place primarily within the minds of people.
00:15:58.020 And at the highest level, this is a war of transnational organizations against everyone else.
00:16:08.600 So globalism versus the people.
00:16:11.460 Beneath that, you have state actors, such as the United States, China, Russia, Europe,
00:16:17.880 who are a layer beneath these transnational organizations.
00:16:22.160 And these are the state actors beneath the non-state actors of these transnationals that
00:16:27.400 are still taking action.
00:16:29.220 And a lot of fifth generation warfare originates from state actors.
00:16:32.960 For example, taking a look at the war in Ukraine, if everyone, anyone who's looked at that
00:16:39.820 war can recall that there was this big movie trailer for the Ukrainian counteroffensive in
00:16:45.000 2023.
00:16:46.420 Now, why did that happen?
00:16:48.600 Isn't that kind of weird to just announce that you're going to attack in this big Marvel
00:16:53.220 movie style way?
00:16:54.180 Well, the reason that happened is that is actually a fifth generation element of the war in Ukraine
00:17:00.720 that does involve state actors.
00:17:02.760 So the reason that this took place is because the perception of what is happening on the
00:17:11.880 battlefield is actually as or more important than what is actually happening on the battlefield.
00:17:18.100 The Ukrainian state and the American state wanted to present to non-state actors that
00:17:25.300 this war is being won.
00:17:27.160 The battle space is actually happening in the mind of people.
00:17:32.500 So the perception of what was happening on the battlefield is at least as important as
00:17:38.820 what was happening on the battlefield in first and second and third generation terms in that
00:17:43.620 case, right?
00:17:44.220 The battle is actually happening in the mind of Europeans, congressmen, corporations, everyone
00:17:51.160 who's contributing to this battle.
00:17:53.000 So that's a fifth generation element to an existing war.
00:17:57.160 Now, that is only one example, and that involves state actors.
00:18:01.460 But fifth generational warfare primarily involves non-state actors, private companies pursuing
00:18:07.380 their own private interests, or even private organizations or individuals pursuing interests
00:18:12.200 against other individuals.
00:18:14.500 For example, a good example that you'll be familiar with is the Cigar Slam was actually a
00:18:21.420 great example of fifth generation warfare, which might sound kind of trite to say, but that's
00:18:26.040 exactly what it was.
00:18:27.100 There were two sides in that war, basically attempting to influence the thoughts and opinions across
00:18:35.320 an audience.
00:18:37.300 And the minds of those people is actually the battle space for private interests, either yours
00:18:42.520 or AA's private interests in establishing control over a narrative.
00:18:48.900 And that's what fifth generation warfare is also primarily characterized by.
00:18:53.180 It's a war of narratives.
00:18:54.880 And as I said, at the highest level, the narrative is whether or not the world is going to follow
00:19:01.140 this model of globalism under transnationals, or if we can see a return to state actors being
00:19:08.160 the primary entities.
00:19:09.240 So that was probably a lot.
00:19:10.660 Why don't you take that and give me another direction to run in?
00:19:14.740 Yeah, no problem.
00:19:16.540 So, oh, and I just want to remind people, this is pre-taped.
00:19:19.740 So if you have any questions, I appreciate it.
00:19:22.660 But unfortunately, we won't be able to answer them at the end.
00:19:24.820 So just keep that in mind.
00:19:25.720 If you're looking to super chat, maybe save it for another day.
00:19:30.100 But yeah, I think that it's important to recognize, like you said, that there are elements of this
00:19:37.160 fifth generation warfare, even in what is perhaps a more traditional state versus state conflict
00:19:44.920 between Ukraine and Russia.
00:19:46.500 And one of the reasons for that is that even though this looks more like a conventional war
00:19:51.660 than we've probably seen in a while, it's not really.
00:19:54.800 And in the sense that Ukraine is not really fighting this war, like obviously the people
00:20:01.280 of Ukraine are, the people who are putting themselves in harm's way, the men of Ukraine 0.99
00:20:05.660 who are sacrificing, you know, are doing that.
00:20:09.280 But the backing, the financial backing, the logistical backing, the intelligence backing,
00:20:15.140 that is all coming from outside of Ukraine.
00:20:17.360 And everyone knows it.
00:20:18.700 Everyone recognizes, I think at this point, pretty much that what this really is, is a transnational
00:20:23.400 actor, it's the, it's NATO, while launching a proxy war through Ukraine into Russia.
00:20:31.480 And in that moment, there's several critical pieces that I want to look at, because, you
00:20:37.520 know, you think of something like, you know, yellow journalism and launching the Spanish-American
00:20:41.780 war.
00:20:42.360 It's not like propaganda hasn't existed, right?
00:20:45.480 Like Lincoln leans heavily into the emancipation, you know, aspect of the civil war after he needs
00:20:53.180 to gain the approval of other nations and try to drive them away from, you know, acknowledging
00:20:59.040 the Confederacy, these kind of things that, the raisin detra for the war, the motivations
00:21:04.900 for the war, the narrative behind the war has always been critical.
00:21:09.140 So we don't want to pretend like this is the first time that has ever come up.
00:21:13.200 I mean, we literally have ancient texts with long flowing speeches about justifying the
00:21:18.280 war one way or another and that kind of thing.
00:21:20.860 So that, that's not, narratives in war are not new, but I think what changes especially
00:21:26.980 is the way that that is done in kind of this fifth generation warfare tactic, because you
00:21:33.020 need people to believe certain things about Ukraine and Russia and their relationship.
00:21:37.960 You need to make sure that they don't understand dynamics in probably the Donbass, that they don't
00:21:43.360 know about what has happened with the CIA in the Ukraine.
00:21:47.140 You also, you know, I have avoided a lot of day to day reporting on events in Ukraine for
00:21:53.740 the very simple fact that the information war is so intense that it's very difficult to
00:21:58.340 find out what's actually going on.
00:21:59.980 I mean, very clear.
00:22:01.160 I think at this point that Russia is winning, but for a while, even that was in question
00:22:05.260 and you had so much different footage and different analysis is constantly an interest from both
00:22:11.260 sides and pumping out.
00:22:12.540 I think a lot of information that is very questionable, manipulated.
00:22:16.560 And so you have the scenario where obviously you, you know that the war is only being operated
00:22:23.940 by Zelensky because he is basically a conduit for all this money and, and material and everything
00:22:31.500 else that's flowing through, uh, NATO.
00:22:34.180 And so his most important role is not a battlefield commander.
00:22:37.000 It's not a getting out there and, uh, raising, uh, the, the spirits of the troops or making
00:22:41.900 impressive moves.
00:22:43.080 His, his most important job is doing photo ops at, uh, you know, the, the wall street or,
00:22:48.920 you know, the, at the trading bell in Congress, you know, making speeches.
00:22:52.700 Uh, the war can be won or lost right there in the room with Trump because that's literally
00:22:58.060 the entire negotiation.
00:22:59.720 And so, uh, there's a, there's a lot there, but my point being is that public relations
00:23:04.600 aspect that, uh, you know, kowtowing to, uh, uh, multinational interests that, uh, being
00:23:11.680 a, a real proxy for larger interest beyond your own nation, the need to constantly manipulate
00:23:17.620 the information of the people who would support you.
00:23:19.900 Uh, those are all, I think pretty critical characteristics that again, while propaganda
00:23:23.760 has always been part of a war, the constant ongoing need, uh, to probably update, obscure
00:23:30.040 the situation and fight for the sympathies of the people who might be voting one way or
00:23:35.000 another to keep the money flowing in and out of the war.
00:23:37.620 Uh, I think those are the aspects that most people would recognize as something new or
00:23:41.540 different from what's going on now.
00:23:43.900 I'm glad you mentioned propaganda because one of the things we need to make clear is that
00:23:49.460 fifth generational warfare isn't just propaganda.
00:23:52.560 It's not just public relations or, or psyops or something like that.
00:23:56.960 Obviously there's always been propaganda.
00:23:58.980 One of the key differences is let's again, look back at the Napoleonic Wars, many cartoons
00:24:04.420 are published, especially by the English mocking Napoleon and making him look silly and that
00:24:09.280 sort of thing.
00:24:09.920 In other wars, you can imagine leaflets being dropped for a plane.
00:24:14.060 Third generation warfare even encompasses the concept of hearts and minds.
00:24:18.040 Uh, and this might involve actions from soldiers, uh, in their relations with the, the local
00:24:24.540 populace, but this is different from fifth generation warfare because these are singular
00:24:30.700 actions that are not engaging with the enemy on an informational level, right?
00:24:35.220 Fifth generational warfare involves direct information war, ongoing information war between
00:24:41.280 both sides, right?
00:24:42.420 A leaflet drop or a political cartoon isn't really engaging directly with the opponent where in a
00:24:50.440 fifth generation war that is actually happening.
00:24:52.720 Again, we can take another example.
00:24:54.560 Let's look at Greenland.
00:24:55.560 There's actually a fifth generation war happening right now for Greenland.
00:24:59.260 And this is actually a really good example of fifth gen war because we really don't know who the 0.70
00:25:05.440 opposing sides are.
00:25:07.600 There's a general idea that it's, it's like the U S versus Denmark, but is it really Denmark?
00:25:12.920 The United States is primarily, uh, engaging with in a fifth generation capacity? 0.86
00:25:19.080 No.
00:25:19.740 What are the actual interests behind the U S annexing Greenland?
00:25:24.780 I mean, I don't think it's just that the U S wants more territory, right?
00:25:30.620 What, who is actually behind this?
00:25:32.240 There are probably non-state actors behind this attempt at annexation.
00:25:37.480 If it even is that who knows, we don't actually know if the purpose of this fifth generation
00:25:43.860 conflict is actually to annex Greenland.
00:25:46.420 That is what is being said.
00:25:48.180 And are there corporate interests behind potential resource exploitation that could happen?
00:25:53.740 Probably, almost certainly.
00:25:56.540 Is that why this is happening?
00:25:58.260 We don't know.
00:25:59.280 And so this, this is a very good example of fifth generation war because it has all of 0.96
00:26:03.880 the primary aspects of it.
00:26:06.200 We don't really know who the sides are.
00:26:08.380 We don't really know why this territory is being fought over.
00:26:12.040 And we don't even know if that is the real goal or if it's facilitating some other outcome
00:26:17.160 that we're not even aware of.
00:26:18.640 Yeah, in a weird way, the, the kind of the post irony culture, uh, thing makes it even
00:26:24.140 more, uh, of an interesting dynamic because you can't even know whether to take it seriously
00:26:28.600 or not.
00:26:29.040 It's like our JD Vance and, uh, Donald Trump really planning to control this.
00:26:35.140 Are we memeing this into reality?
00:26:37.120 Is this a bargaining chip to try to create some other dynamics somewhere else?
00:26:42.580 We don't know.
00:26:43.400 And so, you know, a lot of people are like, well, maybe we're just trying to get Greenland
00:26:47.000 for the lulls, you know?
00:26:48.140 And while that sounds stupid, it's a, it's a way in which you can kind of, uh, prepare
00:26:54.220 people for a step that they might not otherwise take or otherwise consider, uh, simply by in
00:27:00.140 a way, you know, defanging it, uh, you know, making it less serious, making it feel like
00:27:04.840 a game or a joke or a possible distraction.
00:27:07.820 But then one day you turn around and it's real and you'd never expected it much like
00:27:12.080 Trump being president of the United States in the first place.
00:27:14.540 And so you, you, there, there is that dynamic there where it's like, yeah, not only do we
00:27:18.560 not know the actors behind it, are there, you know, corporations or other interests that
00:27:23.160 are driving it, but we don't even know if the attempt is serious until real action
00:27:28.660 takes place.
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00:27:59.880 Yes.
00:28:01.540 Another really good example that involves non-state actors around the war in Ukraine.
00:28:07.780 We can take a look at, I'm sure a lot of viewers are familiar with Judge Napolitano's show.
00:28:13.480 And now he sort of has a collection of people who appear on his show and they sort of push
00:28:18.100 a certain narrative.
00:28:19.640 Now, so there's clearly a faction here, right?
00:28:21.680 They recently, he and a few other people who feature on his show recently even got to interview
00:28:27.540 the foreign minister Lavrov from Russia.
00:28:30.760 There's clearly a faction here that includes like people like Colonel McGregor, right?
00:28:36.080 And Larry Johnson.
00:28:37.320 But who are these people acting on behalf of?
00:28:40.480 Are they acting on behalf of themselves?
00:28:42.140 They're clearly not acting on behalf of the U.S. government.
00:28:44.500 I mean, Judge Napolitano is a libertarian.
00:28:46.500 So they're not a state actor on the American side.
00:28:48.900 I don't think anyone would argue that they're, you know, Russian agents or something like
00:28:53.300 that.
00:28:53.500 I'm sure a bunch of crazy leftists would argue that, but they're not acting on behalf of
00:28:57.560 the Russian government.
00:28:58.560 So who are they acting on?
00:29:00.280 This, but we don't know.
00:29:01.620 That's the point, right?
00:29:02.300 We can see that there's some sort of faction here that has a certain narrative that they're
00:29:07.980 pushing regarding the war in Ukraine.
00:29:10.120 But who are they actually working for?
00:29:12.660 Are they working for themselves?
00:29:13.500 We don't really know.
00:29:14.240 And again, so this is a, this is an aspect of fifth generational warfare that's happening
00:29:18.980 between non-state actors that isn't actually directly connected to anything.
00:29:23.680 As far as we can tell, obviously they're, they're also acting against other non-state
00:29:27.700 actors, basically the, the mainstream media who pushes their own narrative about the war
00:29:32.700 in Ukraine.
00:29:33.400 And, you know, one can argue from a sort of mold buggy and perspective, if you want that
00:29:37.300 the media is actually the state, but strictly speaking, the American media and the European
00:29:42.940 media, those are not state actors.
00:29:44.800 They are pushing narratives about the war, perhaps on behalf of the state, but they are
00:29:49.960 fundamentally not state actors.
00:29:53.740 So one of the things that's very clear is that the gradient of warfare seems to be, and
00:29:59.920 again, we know that this dynamic shifts.
00:30:01.680 It's not that we're always in a generation two and then, you know, we go to, we just go
00:30:07.120 sequentially three, four, five.
00:30:09.580 But one thing that seems clear is that.
00:30:12.940 War is becoming more totalized, right?
00:30:15.300 When we had, you know, there were always conscripts, you know, there's always just people pulled
00:30:21.620 up peasants, slaves in desperate situations.
00:30:24.300 But for the most part, they tended to not be super useful due to just the realities of
00:30:30.220 close rank combat in, for much of history, you needed well-armored and well-drilled troops
00:30:36.000 to keep them from just like fleeing in combat.
00:30:37.920 That's your numbers matter.
00:30:39.600 But there's a huge dynamic of discipline and drill that really changed things.
00:30:45.860 And so it was really generally people who were well-drilled, well-equipped that were
00:30:51.420 on the battlefield.
00:30:52.200 You don't just have a lot of like farmers with pitchforks in most battles.
00:30:56.460 And so that means that battles tended to be between nobles or, you know, competing, you
00:31:02.580 know, different, I'm losing the name for feudal.
00:31:09.380 There we go.
00:31:09.980 Different feudal lords, those kind of things.
00:31:11.780 And it's stepped up, obviously, as we increase the ability to mass produce arms, you could
00:31:18.280 drill the average person.
00:31:20.140 And so quantity, especially when you came to mass warfare, when it came to the state, being
00:31:26.260 able to provide large numbers of peoples with high quality armaments, that kind of thing,
00:31:30.780 that really mattered.
00:31:32.620 And so we saw more and more of the state getting involved.
00:31:35.680 Now you need all the production in the state to turn to wartime production.
00:31:38.800 You need to draft as many of the war age men into the conflict. 1.00
00:31:44.160 Now we're in a moment where it seems like we're returning back to professional armies.
00:31:49.300 We don't have a lot of conscripts.
00:31:50.580 We don't have a lot of drafts.
00:31:52.500 It is, you know, that's where the state actors are.
00:31:57.020 But the non-state actors are increasing in complexity.
00:31:59.480 They have access to large amounts of very dangerous weapons, that kind of thing.
00:32:04.420 And now we've moved to the point where you can launch, even non-state actors can
00:32:08.740 launch attacks in a very totalizing fashion on populations themselves when it comes to
00:32:15.080 information and manipulation, these type of things.
00:32:18.300 And so I'm wondering, what do you think about this continued push to the totalization of
00:32:24.380 war?
00:32:24.760 Are we just going to be in a scenario that because war isn't confined to specific battlefields
00:32:30.020 and state actors at specific times that we are always in some form of low-grade conflict
00:32:36.200 because war is just ongoing and total, you know, for everyone at this point?
00:32:42.320 That's definitely one perspective.
00:32:44.520 There's a book titled Unrestricted Warfare that is focused more on the Chinese state and its
00:32:51.360 military strategy.
00:32:52.320 But yes, that is one potential future of fifth generation warfare, that it is a sort
00:32:58.140 of just endless global battle.
00:33:01.220 I tend to think that this particular global war will end at some point, but maybe fifth
00:33:05.320 generation warfare just never ends.
00:33:07.060 Maybe it's just something that's always happening.
00:33:09.020 Certainly there are always going to be fifth generation style conflicts between smaller private
00:33:14.100 actors.
00:33:15.160 But currently it does seem that everyone on the planet who's connected to the fifth generation
00:33:20.000 war through the internet is involved to some extent with the war, because one of the aspects
00:33:24.580 of this war is, you know, the perception of Donald Trump, right?
00:33:27.780 This is a fifth generation conflict that's been going on for over 10 years now.
00:33:34.240 And I think over 10 years, 10 years at least.
00:33:38.380 And it's involved in the entire Western world at least, right?
00:33:41.980 So every single Westerner who is aware that Donald Trump exists and is involved in a fifth
00:33:49.280 generation conflict.
00:33:50.300 They are the battlefield.
00:33:51.280 And if you have been convinced, for example, about certain things about Donald Trump by
00:33:57.420 the mainstream media, you're actually a casualty, right?
00:34:03.300 You're a casualty of fifth generation war if one side convinces you to believe certain things
00:34:11.460 more or less irrevocably based on their information war that they're conducting against you to achieve
00:34:18.220 a certain outcome.
00:34:19.100 So we really need to think of fifth generation warfare, not again, not just as propaganda
00:34:24.120 or psyops, but that there are actual casualties in the conflict.
00:34:27.960 And when you come to when you succumb to certain ends that one of the belligerent sides is attempting
00:34:35.620 to achieve, you're actually a casualty of that conflict.
00:34:38.440 And again, once you rack up enough casualties, once you attrite the opposing side to the right
00:34:46.520 extent, you win the war, right?
00:34:48.180 There's been no success on that front, no final success on that front in this aspect of the
00:34:56.700 fifth generation war involving Trump, right?
00:34:59.300 Neither side has attrited the other side's people.
00:35:03.400 The minds of their people have not been attrited enough in order to succeed in the victory,
00:35:08.640 right?
00:35:08.860 The country is still very much divided.
00:35:12.060 And after the election, it seemed like there was a lot of demoralization of the left.
00:35:16.280 We've talked about that, right?
00:35:17.280 After Trump's victory, you could actually consider demoralized leftists as casualties of fifth
00:35:23.560 generation warfare, casualties that maybe some of us even helped inflict it.
00:35:28.580 Because merely by having these conversations, we are effectively participants in the fifth
00:35:33.500 generation war for either our own private interests or the interests of some other faction
00:35:38.100 we support or something like that.
00:35:40.480 Even though there's no guns involved, there's no actual death involved, the battlefield is
00:35:45.680 in the mind, right?
00:35:47.120 And again, it's different from propaganda because it's not simply a one-to-one engagement.
00:35:54.080 You know, you might propagandize your own soldiers against the Persians or something back in the
00:35:59.980 War of Alexander the Great or the Wars of Caesar, you'll propagandize your soldiers against the 0.92
00:36:05.360 barbarians in Germany.
00:36:06.680 That's different because there's no engagement with the propaganda of the other side in a
00:36:11.400 continuous fashion.
00:36:12.440 It's just a one-off.
00:36:13.620 Physically, that would be impossible for the Greeks to even propagandize the Persians,
00:36:19.460 right?
00:36:19.600 How would you conduct a fifth generation warfare against, you know, Xerxes or Darius or something
00:36:25.880 if you're a Greek?
00:36:27.080 It's literally not possible.
00:36:28.240 So the fifth generation warfare is enabled by technology and it exists because there is
00:36:35.420 the potential for constant fighting over the minds of individual people tailored to those
00:36:42.120 individuals, even through AI, right?
00:36:44.220 There's not even necessarily generic propaganda or information being sent to the public at
00:36:50.740 large in a sort of public relations fashion.
00:36:53.160 There's actually highly targeted information being sent to specific individuals on the individual
00:36:58.760 level, specifically designed to win the battle for your mind.
00:37:03.800 And again, being quote-unquote like red-pilled or something doesn't mean you're immune to
00:37:13.040 this or that you've won the fifth generation warfare against yourself because it's ongoing
00:37:20.160 and there's not one end.
00:37:21.820 There are many, many ends being pursued by many different actors against you at all times.
00:37:27.420 This could even just be getting you to buy stupid products from Temu or something, right,
00:37:31.800 that you see on Twitter ads, right?
00:37:33.240 This could be considered a type of fifth generational warfare that's happening.
00:37:37.840 So being aware of it enables you to put up certain defenses and notice that operations
00:37:46.460 are being conducted against you, but it doesn't make you immune from it.
00:37:50.300 Primarily, though, it is important for fifth generation warfare for the casualties or the
00:37:56.340 targets to not actually be aware that it's being conducted against them.
00:37:59.620 So it's important to talk about fifth generational warfare in terms of warfare itself and not
00:38:08.900 just propaganda so that people can understand that there is actually a war being conducted
00:38:14.060 against them and that they are legitimately the actual battlefield, right?
00:38:19.560 For example, again, going back to Canada or Greenland, the changing of national borders can be done
00:38:26.200 without firing a shot.
00:38:27.420 It could be done entirely through fifth generation means merely by convincing enough people to do
00:38:33.900 not necessarily the same thing, but the right things to facilitate that outcome.
00:38:38.720 Yeah, and it's very interesting that this can be wrapped in necessarily things that may or may not
00:38:46.720 themselves be nefarious.
00:38:48.400 Part of this is global exchange.
00:38:50.140 When you're constantly exchanging entertainment ideas and products, as you point out,
00:38:54.280 these things can be so deeply intertwined that you don't even notice.
00:38:57.360 And, you know, there are areas, for instance, I think Alexander Dugan is doing really interesting
00:39:02.640 philosophy right now.
00:39:03.720 I think he's probably one of the most interesting philosophers that is contemporary, to be sure.
00:39:09.440 That said, he's very obviously also a Russian propagandist, you know, and really an unapologetic
00:39:15.260 one.
00:39:16.100 And so you have to be very aware if you're trying to understand anything that he's doing that
00:39:23.040 deeply, you know, entwined with every bit of it is really his political project and, you
00:39:28.420 know, his interest in Russia.
00:39:30.580 And so those are all things that, you know, whether it be consumer items or entertainment
00:39:35.200 or even philosophical ideas, that there's this constant intertwining between these things.
00:39:41.100 And I wonder, you know, a big part of the reason that it's so important to launch these
00:39:47.760 attacks into the hearts and minds of the people to engage in this fifth generation warfare and
00:39:53.980 make the mind the battlefield for a lot of people, a big reason for that is the need for
00:40:01.200 popular will to legitimize political power in most of these nations.
00:40:08.500 Now, there would probably still be a reason to manipulate the public anyway, but that is a
00:40:13.240 pretty significant thing that, you know, the fact that people caring about this and supporting this
00:40:18.840 stuff is critical to the maintenance of the ability of both state and non-state actors to do
00:40:24.260 what they want on a battlefield in real life or to, you know, reach goals in kind of a mental model
00:40:30.700 or a digital world.
00:40:32.340 And so I wonder at some point, could we get to the point where people simply burn out?
00:40:38.100 People are so over-propagandized.
00:40:40.180 People are so, their minds are being fought over so continuously that, and faith in, you
00:40:46.780 know, democracy and kind of, you know, popular sovereignty start to wane, you know, is there
00:40:52.120 a scenario in which the constant need to battle for, you know, these hearts and minds, the constant
00:40:59.840 need to manipulate, you know, the mental space of different people in different nations becomes
00:41:06.440 less because you don't, you won't be as heavily disrupting the machine of, you know, these
00:41:12.220 different interests that ultimately rely very heavily on public opinion.
00:41:16.260 So I don't know if that makes sense, but just, you know, do you think there's a point at
00:41:19.520 which, like, the burnout of being so intensely manipulated along these lines could lead to
00:41:26.080 the point where it becomes less efficient or less necessary because, like, people just can't
00:41:31.940 be made to care about every conflict every moment of every day, and eventually they just
00:41:37.360 turn it off, burn out, fade away, that kind of thing.
00:41:39.600 I do not think that, in general, fifth generation warfare can reach a burnout phase because you
00:41:49.960 would basically have to have most people on the planet sort of disconnect from the internet
00:41:53.780 and information at that point, which could be seen as a victory condition by one faction
00:41:58.280 or the other in fifth generation war itself, but I don't really see an outcome where people
00:42:03.780 just get tired of information in general. Now, it's more useful to talk about this at the
00:42:10.760 individual level rather than talking about fifth generational warfare coming to an end
00:42:15.280 in a general case. For the individual, fifth generation warfare can come to an end.
00:42:21.080 It's important to not overgeneralize the concept and realize that fifth generation warfare begins
00:42:27.560 and ends with the individual's connection to the information that's being used against them
00:42:32.660 to convince them of a certain thing. So, you can end fifth generation warfare for yourself 0.56
00:42:38.320 if you choose to throw an act of will. Now, in order to entirely separate yourself from it,
00:42:44.620 though, it would really require a complete disconnection from the global information system
00:42:49.560 of the internet, which is really not possible. So, I don't foresee any, like, real end of
00:42:54.500 fifth generation warfare. It's also pertinent to bring up Alexander Dugan. That's another
00:43:00.600 great example of fifth generation warfare because Dugan and Eurasianism and other ideas that he has
00:43:06.920 about fourth political theory are heavily used in aspects of the global fifth generation war that's
00:43:14.100 happening right now. And that's an interesting case because Dugan himself isn't waging a fifth
00:43:20.160 generation war consciously against Americans. He might be. I tend to think intellectuals are mostly just
00:43:33.040 interested in their intellectual activities, but you're right. He might be. At the very least,
00:43:39.260 his ideas are being used and have been used for a long time against the West and against Americans.
00:43:44.960 Basically, when Americans become convinced of Eurasianism, for example, they're fundamentally
00:43:51.420 being turned against their own country. And the thing is, it doesn't matter when it comes to these
00:43:57.500 ideas. It doesn't matter if you really believe them, if you're convinced in a perfectly logical way.
00:44:02.860 It doesn't matter how smart you are. It doesn't matter how smart you think you are. If you have been,
00:44:07.440 for example, turned into a Eurasianist as an American by listening to Alexander Dugan or even
00:44:14.980 as a European, basically you are a casualty of fifth generation warfare. It does not matter how 0.81
00:44:22.400 intelligent you are, right? The point is the outcome. So for some people, they might be convinced
00:44:29.960 of Eurasianism by one way, and that's one way to turn them against their own country. You might be 0.96
00:44:36.680 convinced to turn against your own country or people by reading René Guénard and converting to
00:44:43.400 Islam and moving to Turkey or something. That's another way that effectively the same outcome 0.98
00:44:50.140 can be achieved of demoralization. And it can be used by the same parties, can be used by different
00:44:57.380 parties. We can look at, again, Julius Evola is another great example that can turn Americans strongly
00:45:04.060 against their own society. These are all different weapons. And it doesn't matter how much you've
00:45:09.480 read. It doesn't matter how smart you are. If the outcome is achieved, then you become a casualty
00:45:15.600 in the conflict related to the interests of that party. And obviously these things can work in the
00:45:20.880 reverse direction where you could be turned into some sort of American imperialist, like neocon 2.0 type
00:45:31.000 person, if you kind of revert in the other direction. And that's going to serve the interests
00:45:37.980 of different parties. And those parties might achieve that outcome in their own ways that
00:45:43.120 they're not arguing directly against Dugan or Evola or someone else, right? But they're going to
00:45:50.320 propagandize you in a certain way to turn you into someone who supports American imperialism abroad.
00:45:56.120 Maybe you think, for example, Europe should remain under the thumb of the United States in
00:46:01.600 perpetuity because that's great for America. These are all different outcomes that can be
00:46:06.040 achieved through fifth generation warfare that's happening against you. And simply being convinced
00:46:12.420 of it through your logical reasoning or whatever, a lot of the listeners are going to be reading all
00:46:18.500 these books. They'll be reading Schmidt, Pareto, whatever. Simply the fact that you put in the
00:46:23.660 hard work and believe that you've convinced yourself of something doesn't mean that you have not become
00:46:30.620 a party or victim to fifth generation war.
00:46:35.880 So my last question is going to be about sovereignty. With fourth generation warfare, obviously the nature of
00:46:43.560 sovereignty starts to change. We start to see the non-state actors get involved, recognizing who's on what
00:46:51.640 side, when a state's sovereignty is being impinged by another state, or is it a non-state actor, or is a non-state
00:46:58.400 actor who is operating under the interest of another state? These things start to blur the lines. Everyone isn't
00:47:05.260 wearing uniforms. We're not sure, excuse me, we're not sure necessarily who's in charge and these kind of things in any
00:47:13.100 given moment. You know, this was a hard enough jump for a lot of people with a global war on terror because
00:47:19.780 we just didn't have these classic understandings of when a conflict was occurring, when it started,
00:47:26.320 when it ended, what the goals were. You could argue that that has not existed in things like Vietnam as
00:47:30.960 well, but very much so this was thrown up in the air in fourth generation warfare. In fifth generation
00:47:36.760 warfare, every avenue of influence and information becomes a possible breach of sovereignty, right? If I
00:47:46.240 don't secure my digital space as the United States, then I am opening myself up to constant fifth
00:47:53.660 generation warfare. And so the question becomes, you know, a lot of us are against censorship, especially
00:48:00.140 because our own regimes hate us so much. You know, for a very long time, the United States government
00:48:05.620 hated the American people far more than it hated Russia or China or anyone else. And so it was,
00:48:13.020 you know, we wanted to keep those lines of communications open. We didn't trust the regime
00:48:17.160 to ultimately filter what was coming in from the outside because they were more likely to filter out
00:48:23.600 the things that would help us than the things that would hurt us. But at some point you recognize that
00:48:28.280 any state that's not kind of taking control of its digital space is losing. And so whether you or I
00:48:35.320 like it or not, whether it's politically advantageous for our project or that kind of thing, I think
00:48:40.100 there is an important recognition that fifth generation warfare also changes the concept of
00:48:47.680 sovereignty and that states that don't generate a plan for digital sovereignty and information
00:48:54.180 sovereignty are just as likely to get wrecked as a state that doesn't have a plan to like repel an
00:48:59.760 invasion. Yeah, absolutely. Right now, the way the internet works in the West is that there's a
00:49:07.620 totally free flowing open, open flow of information between everyone. Now, some things are censored.
00:49:15.160 Most censorship is done indirectly. It's not that, you know, a website might be banned, but maybe it just
00:49:19.840 won't ever show up in search results. So you can't find it. Let's take a look at North Korea, for example.
00:49:24.520 It has totally closed itself off from information and it has protected its regime that way. It has
00:49:31.120 maintained its sovereignty over its territory by not allowing information to come out. So effectively
00:49:38.200 North Korea has bypassed or defeated or avoided most aspects of fifth generation warfare,
00:49:47.220 a fifth generation war being conducted against its party by simply turning off. Right. So
00:49:54.460 that's a good example of actually doing exactly what you stated. Now, obviously,
00:50:01.780 the West and other countries, you know, shouldn't go just North Korea mode and completely lock down
00:50:07.020 everything. But there has to be a certain acknowledgement from the state and action on
00:50:12.480 the state if you're interested in preserving, you know, an American state at all, which, you know,
00:50:18.020 that whole idea is up in the air and the concept of fifth generation war and the transnational
00:50:23.340 war we're in. But states do need to protect themselves from certain informational influences
00:50:29.320 that may come from state actors or even non-state actors. Like, for example, North Korea protects
00:50:34.740 itself from tourists, right? Tourists are not allowed to do certain things. When an American 0.90
00:50:39.080 tourist goes there, like not every single one of them, some sort of CIA plant who's there to
00:50:43.180 propagandize. But that person will inevitably introduce information to the system. And the North
00:50:48.860 Koreans understand that this is actually a threat to their system, that that is effectively these 1.00
00:50:54.860 tourists are effectively enemy combatants in a certain way, because they are invading the
00:51:00.620 information space with their own Western ideas. So yes, states do resist fifth generation warfare,
00:51:07.380 even if they don't understand it in those terms, right? Does North Korea think in like fifth generation
00:51:12.020 warfare terms? Probably not. But looking at it, we can comprehend that that is exactly what's
00:51:17.300 happening there. All right. Well, let's go ahead and wrap this one up. Obviously, this is a very
00:51:23.260 deep topic. We could go on for quite a while. But like I said, Charlie has done good work on many
00:51:29.520 different conflicts. So if you want to check out his content, I know he says he's not a YouTuber that
00:51:33.660 much anymore, but he's got a good YouTube channel with plenty of good backlog. Is there anything you have
00:51:39.180 coming up with a sub stack or anything you want to point people towards?
00:51:42.620 Well, my sub stack is titled Neo Reactor, and you can follow it at charlemagne.substack.com, where I do
00:51:50.900 mostly book reviews. And then I also do content for the Old Glory Club, which I'm also a founding member
00:51:56.720 of. That's the Old Glory Club on YouTube. We do weekly live streams on Thursday. We also have three
00:52:04.260 sub stack articles a week on the Old Glory Club sub stack. And you can also find our website at
00:52:11.240 theoldgloryclub.com if you're interested in joining a pro-America fraternal society among American men.
00:52:20.960 Yeah. And now you guys are running these conferences that sell out in a moment's notice. So high demand,
00:52:29.180 very exclusive. So get on the ground floor while you can if you want to involve yourself with the OGC.
00:52:35.240 All right, guys. Well, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up. Like I said, if it's your first time
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00:53:11.420 like to support the show. Thank you, everybody, for watching. And as always, I'll talk to you next time.