The Auron MacIntyre Show - Zelenskyy Thrown Out of White House, Media Goes Insane ｜ Guest： Mark Hemingway

00:00:00.000 We hope you're enjoying your Air Canada flight.

00:00:02.320 Rocky's Vacation, here we come.

00:00:05.060 Whoa, is this economy?

00:00:07.180 Free beer, wine, and snacks.

00:00:09.620 Sweet!

00:00:10.720 Fast-free Wi-Fi means I can make dinner reservations before we land.

00:00:14.760 And with live TV, I'm not missing the game.

00:00:17.800 It's kind of like, I'm already on vacation.

00:00:20.980 Nice!

00:00:22.240 On behalf of Air Canada, nice travels.

00:00:25.260 Wi-Fi available to Airplane members on Equipped Flight.

00:00:27.200 Sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply.

00:00:28.720 CRCanada.com.

00:00:30.080 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.960 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.680 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:38.120 A lot of people have mixed feelings about the war in Ukraine.

00:00:41.880 Obviously, no one wants to see another nation invaded in a hostile fashion,

00:00:46.940 but there were many things that led up to this geopolitical situation.

00:00:52.080 And however you feel about who started it or who's in the right,

00:00:55.540 the one thing that's clear is that the war has more or less proceeded

00:00:59.460 only because the United States and the larger Western world have been funding it.

00:01:04.700 This is essentially a proxy war with Russia.

00:01:08.380 Many people were excited about Trump bringing this conflict to an end,

00:01:12.460 finding a peaceable solution,

00:01:14.260 and he sat down with Vladimir Zelensky in the hopes that ultimately the two nations could figure out how to move forward together.

00:01:22.040 Ultimately, that negotiation broke down and Zelensky was more or less escorted out of the White House

00:01:28.300 before anything could finally be drawn together.

00:01:32.100 Joining me to talk about this and the reaction to it is Mark Hemingway.

00:01:36.020 He's written for basically everyone in Washington, D.C.,

00:01:39.200 currently over at Real Clear Politics.

00:01:41.900 Mark, thanks for joining me, man.

00:01:43.540 Hey, glad to be back.

00:01:45.400 Of course.

00:01:46.140 So looking at this meeting,

00:01:48.980 the media went absolutely apoplectic over it.

00:01:53.280 You had the rules-based international order is over.

00:01:56.560 Donald Trump is now a dictator.

00:01:57.960 It's now the alliance of the dictator against the United States and Russia against the rest of the world.

00:02:04.060 All of these different Commonwealth countries doubling, tripling down on their commitment to Ukraine.

00:02:10.880 Going into this meeting,

00:02:12.640 can you give people an idea of kind of what the context of the meeting was,

00:02:17.600 and were you surprised by the result?

00:02:20.300 Well, I think everybody was kind of surprised by the result,

00:02:23.160 but we can get to sort of why that is to begin with.

00:02:26.620 I mean, look, obviously, we have to go back quite a ways to sort of understand the context of this.

00:02:34.140 I mean, you really have to go back 30 years since the end of the Cold War

00:02:37.280 to really understand the geopolitics involved.

00:02:39.880 There's a lot involving just basic geography in terms of how many countries surrounding the Black Sea

00:02:45.140 are members of NATO, for instance.

00:02:47.320 That number has changed significantly since the fall of the Cold War

00:02:49.780 and it's really affected the Russian calculus.

00:02:52.040 And obviously, they're very paranoid about what may or may not be happening to Ukraine.

00:02:56.060 But, you know, obviously, there's this, you know, liberal internationalist.

00:03:00.840 I don't like the word neocon for lots of reasons.

00:03:05.340 Maybe I'm going to have something to do with the fact that I'm a Weekly Standard alumnus.

00:03:08.800 But, you know, there are certainly things within that realm that there was kind of a hive mind attitude

00:03:13.300 toward Ukraine and our posture toward anything resembling Russian aggression

00:03:18.720 in the last decade or so.

00:03:21.620 But what is interesting is that, you know, how much of that has the calculus has just sort of, you know,

00:03:29.040 changed, flipped on a dime.

00:03:31.300 My friend Dave Reboy has this, you know, basically made the observation that at least, you know,

00:03:36.140 liberal Democrats in America don't have any foreign enemies.

00:03:39.780 They have domestic enemies that they project on the foreigners in terms of, you know,

00:03:44.060 whatever that impact, you know, taking a position on a foreign policy issue is going to have

00:03:48.460 on their domestic political prospects.

00:03:50.040 And that's a lot of what we're seeing here.

00:03:53.140 Obviously, you know, Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 under Barack Obama.

00:03:59.980 You know, Barack Obama was, you know, prior to that was trying to, like, you remember,

00:04:04.580 Hillary Clinton was there with the Russian ambassador and the famous reset button trying

00:04:08.800 to cozy up to Russia prior to that and make nice with them.

00:04:12.520 You know, Obama refused to give Ukraine lethal aid, you know, because he didn't want to

00:04:18.300 antagonate the Russians further.

00:04:20.300 Trump, again, inherited that mess following Obama.

00:04:23.880 And despite what anyone says about Trump's, you know, talk about Putin, you know, where he tried to,

00:04:29.160 you know, not entirely antagonize Putin on the world stage, he was actually aggressively

00:04:36.380 confrontational toward Putin.

00:04:37.900 He confronted Putin militarily in Syria.

00:04:40.300 He flooded Europe with liquid natural gas exports to hurt, you know, the Russian energy

00:04:45.160 economy and stop Putin's war machine.

00:04:47.900 You know, he did lots of very direct things behind the scenes.

00:04:51.200 I mean, there was actual action toward, you know, containing Russia under Trump, whereas the

00:04:57.040 rhetoric was softer, whereas, you know, everything else we saw under Obama and then what we saw

00:05:00.940 under Biden in a lot of ways was the inverse, where you have really tough talk about, you

00:05:06.740 know, Russian aggression and then they don't back it up.

00:05:09.040 Even after Russia invaded the Ukraine under Biden, you know, Biden, what did Biden do?

00:05:16.260 He stopped liquid natural gas exports to Europe for, you know, stupid domestic environmental

00:05:20.540 concerns.

00:05:21.020 He told Ukraine not to attack Russian oil refineries because he was worried about the price of gas

00:05:25.060 in a pending election coming up.

00:05:27.340 At every turn, they have not been nearly as, you know, committed to this as their talk would

00:05:33.600 make them seem.

00:05:34.840 Whereas, you know, Trump campaigned on getting a peace deal and everybody was, you know, wondering

00:05:39.280 what that would mean.

00:05:41.000 And that was, you know, what it was like, you know, coming into that meeting.

00:05:44.260 I mean, as it turns out, Trump is very serious about getting a peace deal.

00:05:48.600 And it seems like Zelensky is very serious about trying to find ways to get America to

00:05:54.580 commit deeper into this war than we already have.

00:05:58.740 And those two tensions are fundamentally at odds.

00:06:01.440 And it's a real acid test right now to look at that situation and blame Trump.

00:06:07.560 And I find it, you know, fascinating.

00:06:10.000 Again, it goes back to what I was saying about, you know, projecting your domestic political

00:06:13.080 enemies onto foreigners.

00:06:15.120 But, you know, I know, talk to a lot of pro-Ukraine types, mostly on the right, of which there

00:06:21.660 are plenty in this town.

00:06:23.200 And I was sort of pleasantly surprised near universal agreement that Zelensky was the one

00:06:29.140 to blame in that meeting.

00:06:30.020 And everyone's tearing their hair out about it.

00:06:32.520 But, you know, but it's just something that we have got to sort of, you know, wrap our head

00:06:38.120 around.

00:06:38.420 And at the end of the day, look, there have been over a million casualties in a war involving

00:06:42.240 a nuclear power in Europe's doorstep.

00:06:44.120 Europe is very ill-equipped to deal with this militarily.

00:06:47.420 And they're, you know, depending on American power projection for their own safety.

00:06:52.660 Now, in that situation, is the answer to find ways to get the U.S. more mired in this?

00:06:59.480 Or should we be trying to find ways to end this conflict?

00:07:02.160 And I think, you know, Americans and even Europeans agree we need to end this conflict sooner

00:07:07.560 rather than later.

00:07:09.100 It's just that there's this European leaders and there's this internationalist, globalist,

00:07:13.620 you know, influence out there that seems to think that, you know, war and perpetuity with

00:07:17.360 Russia is a good thing.

00:07:18.280 And I think most people don't agree with that.

00:07:21.280 Yeah.

00:07:21.740 Like you said, you may not be a big fan of the neocon label.

00:07:25.300 And at this point, it's been through so many iterations that it's difficult to nail down

00:07:29.320 what people mean, even when they're throwing it around.

00:07:31.680 But I guess we could just say kind of the idea of the global international order is one that

00:07:38.100 has cemented itself in permanent Washington and pretty much every other elite class in

00:07:43.840 the Western world.

00:07:44.620 And in many ways, that's understandable.

00:07:46.640 No matter how you feel about these facts, the United States more or less conquer the world

00:07:51.740 after World War Two and a large amount of Europe, whether due to pressure from the United States

00:07:58.080 or their own industrial, military and economic scenarios, really gave all of their power and

00:08:06.560 most of their imperial outposts and these things to the United States.

00:08:09.700 And in a lot of ways, the torch of Western civilization was handed off to the U.S.

00:08:14.960 And that has meant that for a very long time, you were setting up this Cold War scenario.

00:08:20.500 You were referencing the way in which these different blocks have had to interact with

00:08:24.600 each other.

00:08:25.080 You were in NATO or you were in the Warsaw Pact.

00:08:28.920 These two things only existed more or less to get rid of each other.

00:08:33.060 And so ultimately, you have the victorious NATO.

00:08:37.540 You have the victorious West.

00:08:39.140 I'm, of course, very glad that the Soviet Union fell.

00:08:42.000 It was one of the most evil things to ever exist in human history.

00:08:46.120 However, the assumption after this was kind of the end of history narrative, right?

00:08:51.580 The Fukuyama narrative that the United States and the wider Western liberal democracy coalition

00:08:57.180 would more or less control.

00:08:59.260 They would rule the world.

00:09:00.420 It's it's called global governance.

00:09:01.800 It's called these things.

00:09:02.920 But, you know, ultimately, no other nation would have any sphere of influence.

00:09:06.780 There are no legitimate political concerns outside of kind of the rule based international

00:09:12.620 order.

00:09:13.840 And so even in this scenario, as you're discussing, where Zelensky is very obviously entirely dependent

00:09:20.340 on the United States and the West for his military involvement, he walks in and kind of

00:09:26.960 expects to be able to dictate or at the very least to have a strong hand of kind of if I get

00:09:31.600 in front of the media, I can more or less lobby Trump into what I want him to do.

00:09:36.880 Definitely kind of that kind of feel to the meaning.

00:09:40.140 And it just seems very delusional that no one has kind of updated this understanding that,

00:09:45.880 well, we aren't in the world.

00:09:47.560 We are in World War Two anymore.

00:09:49.200 We are in the Cold War anymore.

00:09:51.100 There's going to be different international paradigms.

00:09:54.000 You have to adjust.

00:09:54.860 You have to understand the situation.

00:09:56.420 And ultimately, you have to deal with the fact that you're not going to be able to sustain

00:10:02.080 this war forever.

00:10:03.100 There are only so many Ukrainian men you can send into the Russian meat grinder.

00:10:07.520 And while I don't think this war has been, you know, the giant win for Russia that some

00:10:12.680 people would like to pretend that it has, ultimately, it's pretty clear who would win this one if

00:10:17.780 it just ground itself out.

00:10:19.440 Yeah.

00:10:19.960 Well, that's exactly that.

00:10:21.040 And that's a really key point and one I think that people are missing.

00:10:23.020 The issue here is not a matter of weaponry or, you know, aid that can be given to Ukraine.

00:10:29.500 It's an issue of simple manpower.

00:10:31.700 If this is a war of attrition, Russia is a much larger country and it's simply just going

00:10:35.280 to win.

00:10:36.200 You know, historically, if you know anything about Russia, they do not care about throwing

00:10:39.300 bodies at a conflict.

00:10:40.820 In fact, that's how they've won, you know, most of their conflicts.

00:10:43.740 I mean, that's how World War Two was won.

00:10:45.200 As much as we Americans want to take pride in D-Day and all the other wonderful things our

00:10:48.720 soldiers did, the reality was, is that the Russians just kept throwing bodies at the

00:10:52.600 Eastern Front until they overwhelmed the Nazis in a particularly horrific fashion, I might

00:10:57.520 add.

00:10:58.100 And the Russian philosophy toward this hasn't exactly changed a lot, even though the USSR is

00:11:02.480 no longer there.

00:11:04.420 And I don't think people quite grasp this.

00:11:07.580 So your issues are, you know, basic.

00:11:09.720 So the only real way you're going to win this war if you're Ukraine is if you, you know, use,

00:11:16.880 you know, Western military technology in such an overwhelming way that you, you know, attack

00:11:22.920 Russia on such a level that it's going, that you could trigger World War Three and all of

00:11:28.080 a sudden Russia's deploying tactical nukes in Kiev.

00:11:31.220 Or you come to some sort of negotiated settlement.

00:11:34.200 And I don't know why for, I mean, and I get the psychological and physical toll that this war has

00:11:42.320 taken on Ukraine.

00:11:43.180 I mean, it's truly horrific, you know, Russia's kidnapped children, all these things that have

00:11:46.840 gone on.

00:11:47.760 But the reality is that there have been over a million casualties in this war and it's got

00:11:53.500 to end sooner rather than later, simply because Ukraine does not have the men.

00:11:59.220 I mean, J.D. Vance, you know, referenced that in the meeting where he talked about, you know,

00:12:04.180 how, you know, they conscript people for the Ukrainian army by going and kidnapping people

00:12:08.240 off the streets right now.

00:12:10.200 You know, this is a political reality that I think the rest of us see clearly.

00:12:14.060 And Zelensky himself is not really in, is so invested in this, he can't see the forest

00:12:19.480 for the trees.

00:12:20.300 And it's, you know, on some level, it's admirable.

00:12:22.520 I mean, the guy is a real, true blue patriot.

00:12:25.040 On the other hand, you know, history is, you know, littered with examples of the

00:12:29.220 true blue patriots, you know, going to extremes, going to suicidal extremes.

00:12:33.760 And I do worry that that's what we're dealing with here.

00:12:36.880 Like one thing, again, you know, we're so inundated with this narrative that Trump is

00:12:40.940 this complete and total pro-Putin madman that people just don't understand who Zelensky

00:12:45.860 is.

00:12:46.160 I mean, he has a history of blowing up meetings and problems and creating problems with

00:12:51.100 his allies in Ukraine.

00:12:52.360 In 2023, he blew up at a NATO conference and like caused all kinds of problems that he had

00:12:57.540 to like walk back or whatever, basically because he can't control his emotions doing this stuff.

00:13:01.540 There was a big report a year or two ago where on a phone call with Biden, he was so ungrateful

00:13:08.640 and awful that Biden started reading him the riot act, you know, for being way too demanding

00:13:13.180 of the U.S.

00:13:13.660 Biden, you know, I, you know, it really is an issue here where I think that people are

00:13:20.840 unable to see clearly, you know, just looking at the strategic incentives, just looking at

00:13:26.060 what was said in the meeting, just read a freaking transcript.

00:13:29.800 And, you know, coming to the conclusion that, you know, what Zelensky did was, was, was wrong

00:13:36.160 and it was not in the best interest of his nation.

00:13:38.460 I mean, you know, Trump is still trying to give Zelensky outs, you know, he's still,

00:13:43.540 you know, been issuing statements about, you know, we want peace, you know, we, you know,

00:13:46.860 that he, you know, it's on some level, everybody still wants to see this mineral deal go through.

00:13:52.500 And, and that in and of itself should be something of a security guarantee.

00:13:55.920 Like, like, you know, Trump is trying to find a way to end this conflict without that,

00:14:00.640 and, and, and the way that they're trying to end it is by the way, getting the U.S.

00:14:04.360 economically invested in the country, um, in a way that is going to hold us to account

00:14:09.680 as, as, as a security guarantee on some level.

00:14:13.380 Now, uh, that may not be enough of a security guarantee of, say, having boots on the ground

00:14:17.920 or whatever Zelensky wants, but, you know, Trump is trying to compromise with him and

00:14:22.460 make him happy on some level.

00:14:23.880 It just, as, you know, as, as Trump said, you know, Zelensky's not holding any cards and

00:14:27.560 Trump is.

00:14:28.160 Um, and it's just so frustrating that we have such a brain dead foreign policy class

00:14:33.980 in this, you know, country that, uh, nobody is just seeing clearly and thinking clearly

00:14:39.420 about, you know, the incentives and, and, and what, you know, their respective motives are

00:14:43.640 here.

00:14:44.820 How much of this do you think, or at least how much of Zelensky's attitude is a product

00:14:50.720 of, you know, him, at least to some extent, being a comedian and a comedic actor who's

00:14:57.440 installed by, by a CIA color revolution, right?

00:15:01.320 Like this is, I mean, this guy is, you know, maybe he cares.

00:15:06.200 I can't tell his heart.

00:15:07.440 I don't know how deeply he cares about his country.

00:15:09.460 I don't know.

00:15:10.360 Like, I, I'm not going to speculate on how, how sincere all of this is, but I will say

00:15:16.420 that the fact that he was, he, he has had kind of this Hollywood backing, right?

00:15:22.700 He making speeches to award conferences and, you know, he's been brought around like some

00:15:30.160 kind of mascot and, you know, has, has been shaking hands with all these actors and everything.

00:15:35.540 He has had the support of the global international order.

00:15:39.440 It's been assumed that the elites behind it completely backed him.

00:15:42.620 And all of a sudden the key actor in that seems to have switched, you know, uh, approaches,

00:15:48.660 right?

00:15:48.880 Trump is not, no longer negotiating on behalf of that order.

00:15:52.900 He seems to be negotiating on a half of the United States.

00:15:55.360 And there's a lot of signal lag, I think for Zelensky on what level of support he really

00:15:59.980 has once the United States decides that it's not playing with that toy anymore.

00:16:04.080 So yeah, you're, you're really getting at something.

00:16:06.020 I think it's really important in really defining this conflict and, and, uh, in good and bad

00:16:10.060 ways, um, what I don't think Zelensky and European, European leaders have grasped is

00:16:16.260 that after, you know, you know, gosh, 10 years of really divisive, controversial politics

00:16:23.060 in this country, Trump finally did something in the last election that it was a long time

00:16:27.900 in the making, which is he completely broke America's sort of, you know, elite media.

00:16:34.200 Um, and the New York times and the Washington post and all the rest have literally no ability

00:16:41.020 to, to make any sort of political consensus in America right now.

00:16:43.840 They just don't, you know, nobody in the Trump administration cares one whit what the New

00:16:48.540 York times is saying about them.

00:16:50.000 That was not true in the first Trump administration.

00:16:52.220 The Bush administration was certainly leaking like a sieve whenever they could in the New

00:16:55.640 York times.

00:16:56.140 I mean, people used to really care about this sort of thing.

00:16:58.500 Um, that is not true in Europe, um, in addition to a sort of, you know, rabidly internationalist

00:17:05.580 continental press, you know, Lamont, um, you know, their Spiegel, you know, all the, you

00:17:10.060 know, all the other, you know, big European publications, um, being susceptible to sort of

00:17:15.020 elite opinion, the European leaders and Zelensky of course are reading, you know, America's elite

00:17:20.500 media in the New York times, trying to understand what, uh, our policymakers are thinking and what

00:17:25.620 motivates them and they're getting a completely bizarre and inaccurate picture of what's going

00:17:30.180 on.

00:17:30.460 And I think that that is causing a lot of problems when it comes to sort of negotiations,

00:17:35.080 you know, that Zelensky might be believing his own press about how, you know, you know,

00:17:39.200 he's, you know, we had Adam Schiff calling him the real leader of the free world, not

00:17:43.460 Donald Trump.

00:17:44.780 Um, I mean, it's, it's just absolutely insane.

00:17:47.400 I mean, if you, I hope you like America first foreign policy, cause that's how you get

00:17:50.160 America first foreign policy saying things like that, you know, Vogue is still doing photo

00:17:54.620 shoots or whatever was Zelensky.

00:17:56.080 I mean, this is really insane.

00:17:59.080 Um, you know, whereas Trump is simply looking at polls and there's a CNN poll that came out

00:18:03.240 today, basically, you know, you know, vindicating that I think, you know, it's, it's not, you

00:18:07.180 know, huge advantage for Trump, something like Trump has a plus two approval rating on how

00:18:11.420 he's handling Ukraine, but you compare that to a minus 22 approval rating that Joe Biden

00:18:16.540 had, um, and you know, when he left office and you can see that the switch there is

00:18:22.660 noticeable American people did vote for this.

00:18:25.320 They do want peace.

00:18:26.440 They do want to wrap this up.

00:18:28.440 And yet every time you open the pages of the New York times, it's Brett Steven with another,

00:18:33.280 you know, world war two analogy that's stretched beyond the pale, um, trying to tell us why

00:18:38.340 we need to, you know, throw, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars more at Ukraine.

00:18:42.300 Um, and, you know, prolong a conflict that is, you know, again, I'm going to say this again

00:18:46.360 and again, a million casualties.

00:18:48.000 It's almost unthinkable in the 21st century.

00:18:50.560 We have a war where that, that has happened.

00:18:52.620 Um, and why this is not like a five alarm fire in terms of, you know, people, you know,

00:18:58.000 looking at what that portends, if this conflict were to widen, I do not know, but the reality

00:19:03.300 is the priority needs to be ending the conflict.

00:19:06.220 And yet we're still in this place and it drives me crazy.

00:19:08.820 Like I heard you do this at the beginning of the podcast and I'm not singling you out.

00:19:12.820 Cause I do this too.

00:19:13.900 You were like, and obviously it's bad because Russia did in fact, invade Ukraine.

00:19:18.700 Like we're all still doing this ritual malediction nonsense where every time we talk about Ukraine,

00:19:23.120 we're like, well, obviously Putin's bad and I'm not a Putin lover, but you know, before

00:19:27.720 we go on to make the case that this, you know, conflict should end, like, why can't it just

00:19:31.020 be a value that like, we should all agree that coming to a peace sooner rather than later

00:19:35.660 in a conflict with a nuclear power that's, you know, has a million casualties is the value

00:19:40.680 we should all be seeking.

00:19:42.220 We don't need to like make excuses for wanting that.

00:19:45.900 Yeah.

00:19:46.380 I mean, you're, you're of course correct.

00:19:47.960 And the only reason to go through, uh, you know, the, the, the preamble before even launching

00:19:52.980 into this is of course we have this really horrific addiction to political, uh, influence

00:20:01.680 in the United States.

00:20:03.120 Every person has to have the correct political opinion as if you, you know, any political conflict

00:20:09.840 could be, uh, resolved or decided by picking one of 350 million people out of a pile.

00:20:16.620 And the, you know, if you had the correct, uh, solution, we would have solved it, but because

00:20:21.220 you didn't lose faith, you know, Tinkerbell died, right?

00:20:23.820 Like that's actually the way we treat politics in the United States.

00:20:27.420 So people, you know, Israel and Palestine and Russia and, and, and Ukraine, it's not enough

00:20:33.280 to want peace.

00:20:34.560 It's not enough to seek the end of these conflicts or more importantly, in my perspective, the

00:20:38.840 removal of the United States, the withdrawal of it to the extent that's even possible,

00:20:42.820 uh, from these conflicts, uh, primarily before anything else, peace would be nice, but more

00:20:48.840 than anything, I just like to not to be involved.

00:20:51.260 Uh, I, I have this understanding that conflicts are going to occur that actually it's not the

00:20:56.480 United States's job to be the world police and ensure world peace at every moment and

00:21:01.540 to financially entangle itself or militarily entangle itself with foreign nations in the

00:21:06.260 hopes that ultimately that creates some kind of human shield of our own troops between them

00:21:11.060 and their aggressive tendencies.

00:21:12.740 But ultimately the reason that we do again, like you said, this whole preamble is that if

00:21:18.420 you don't do that, then of course, the minute you point out that maybe peace is preferable

00:21:23.580 to thermonuclear war, the answer is, oh, well then you're, you love Putin, you love

00:21:28.140 Palestine, you're, you must be pro, you know, uh, genocide of one type or another.

00:21:34.000 These are always the attacks that come.

00:21:35.860 There is no, you know, we get the label of isolationist, but of course it has nothing to

00:21:40.760 do with isolation and it has everything to do with just rational foreign policy.

00:21:45.900 What is best for my nation?

00:21:48.300 You know, the one that is supposed to be operating in the interests of my people.

00:21:52.640 A lot of people screaming, Donald Trump isn't acting like the leader of the free world.

00:21:57.200 Well, I didn't elect Donald Trump to be leader of the free world.

00:22:00.400 It's nice when other countries see when the United States is doing something good and want

00:22:04.520 to be a part of it.

00:22:05.320 But I elected Donald Trump to be the president of the United States and work for the good

00:22:09.600 of the United States.

00:22:11.400 And what's probably best for everyone, including the United States is a peace deal in which we

00:22:16.480 don't go to full on knock down, drag out war with people who can annihilate the population

00:22:21.640 of the planet.

00:22:22.520 But as you said, that is an offensive statement to many.

00:22:25.660 Something that's, you know, you're just Chamberlain.

00:22:27.900 It's just appeasement.

00:22:28.980 You're shaking hands with Hitler.

00:22:31.740 Look, you're related to what you're saying.

00:22:33.280 Look, I am not, you know, I hate the term isolationist.

00:22:38.000 You know, I think that that's insane.

00:22:39.880 I don't want to withdraw from NATO.

00:22:41.520 I think Europe is our natural allies.

00:22:43.700 We share a lot of historic and cultural ties with them.

00:22:47.080 And it would be, you know, foolish to go in and, you know, cause all these problems.

00:22:51.140 But, you know, related to what you were saying, there's this thing that's been driving me

00:22:55.660 crazy, which is just this hypersensitivity to what foreign leaders are supposed to think

00:23:00.000 of us.

00:23:00.660 You know, you know, Keir Starmer or whatever has harsh words.

00:23:04.280 The chancellor of Germany doesn't like what's going on.

00:23:06.420 I don't care.

00:23:08.700 And the reason why is not because I don't care in the long run about what Germany thinks

00:23:15.020 of us or what the UK thinks of us or, you know, about, you know, the fact that we should

00:23:18.800 be working together on this.

00:23:20.360 But the reason why I don't care is because they have not committed to the cause themselves.

00:23:25.820 And yes, it's true.

00:23:27.480 Europe has, you know, collectively thrown a significant amount of money to Ukraine.

00:23:31.480 What's also true is since the war started, Europe has still spent more money on Russian

00:23:36.300 energy than they have given to Ukraine in aid.

00:23:39.100 Right now, there are serious forces in Germany in domestic politics that want Germany to resume,

00:23:44.420 you know, taking Russian energy just like they used to because their economy is in bad

00:23:49.360 shape and it needs shoring up.

00:23:50.760 And it would be a lot cheaper for them to go back to taking, you know, Russian energy.

00:23:54.080 I'm like, that's happening right now.

00:23:56.620 You know, there have been something like over $200 billion that the EU has seized in Russian

00:24:03.680 sanctions and frozen funds as a result of this conflict.

00:24:07.220 And yet they don't, they lack the will to seize those funds and give the money to Ukraine

00:24:11.360 to help them win the war.

00:24:13.000 Like they just are not committed to this.

00:24:15.740 Like they're still hedging their bets.

00:24:17.560 They talk the talk and they, you know, it's easy.

00:24:20.480 They go out and they'll, you know, tut tut about Donald Trump and, and, you know, you

00:24:24.520 know, and do all this tough talking about, you know, Putin because they're not the one

00:24:28.940 that's ultimately going to have to broker the deal with him because that falls to Donald

00:24:32.460 Trump now, right?

00:24:34.040 So obviously if Donald Trump or one of his surrogates, like Tulsi Gabbard, you know, goes

00:24:38.980 on television and doesn't immediately call Vladimir Putin a thug and a war criminal when

00:24:44.300 they're asked about them, it's because they're trying to reach a peace agreement, right?

00:24:48.640 Not because they don't think that Putin isn't a thug and a war criminal.

00:24:51.800 Obviously he is.

00:24:52.680 Um, but you know what, sometimes, you know, you have to, you know, make peace with unpleasant

00:25:00.100 people in order to solve a larger conflict and stop more death.

00:25:04.040 I mean, last I checked, there's a memorial to FDR on the national mall and that guy gave

00:25:10.980 the farm away to Stalin, right?

00:25:12.960 You have half of Europe to Stalin.

00:25:14.460 Yes.

00:25:15.740 And I'm supposed to sit here and, you know, be told that Trump is some Putin appeaser because

00:25:21.220 he wants a negotiated settlement that might involve some ceding of territory to Russia.

00:25:26.160 Nevermind that this whole conflict is about control of the black sea in a warm water port

00:25:31.060 in Sebastopol.

00:25:32.540 Like this is not rocket science.

00:25:34.700 I mean, again, this is just looking at a map.

00:25:36.700 This is just basic strategic incentives.

00:25:38.480 This is, you know, coming to an agreement to stop a war where there's been a million casualties.

00:25:43.860 And, you know, it's really great that the European leaders, you know, are able to, you know,

00:25:48.560 issue all this tough talk.

00:25:49.820 Well, guess what?

00:25:50.940 They don't have to be the ones to back it up.

00:25:53.020 There's, you know, as much as they talk about, oh, well, we're going to have to like arm ourselves

00:25:56.800 and we're going to have to not no longer count on the U.S.

00:26:00.540 Give me a break.

00:26:01.640 I mean, you know, look at NATO spending over the last 20 years.

00:26:04.660 You tell me how serious they are about defending themselves.

00:26:06.820 It's not like, you know, Putin became a thug overnight.

00:26:10.000 They haven't taken this seriously then.

00:26:11.720 They're not taking it seriously now.

00:26:13.300 And all they do is talk.

00:26:14.800 Well, there's a lot to get into there, but I guess let's start with the reaction to the meeting.

00:26:21.120 As you pointed out, everyone's drawing these World War II analogies, pretending, yeah,

00:26:25.800 forgetting the fact that part of the World War II story is ultimately that you brokered a peace

00:26:31.840 with Russia to create or a treaty with Russia to resolve a larger conflict.

00:26:36.960 But I guess that that's inconvenient to the current narrative.

00:26:40.600 You had a lot of people screaming the minute that Zelensky left the White House.

00:26:44.900 Oh, you know, Trump is just siding with Hitler or he's Chamberlain or he's both.

00:26:49.680 He's, you know, he's he's he's he exists simultaneously as both Hitler and Chamberlain.

00:26:55.480 They only have that, you know, two periods of history.

00:26:57.860 And this is one of them.

00:26:58.720 So Trump gets to be all of these people simultaneously.

00:27:00.840 A lot of the media and European leaders were attacking the character of Donald Trump and

00:27:09.160 J.D. Vance, particularly a lot of very revealing, you know, gross attacks on Vance, hoping he

00:27:15.920 died, hoping his mom that I have an overdose and like all these horrific things that, you

00:27:20.200 know, it's it's the American South.

00:27:22.540 It's the hillbillies that are keeping us from winning this war somehow in Russia.

00:27:27.240 You know, you and your wife actually engaging in some pretty intense knife fights with some

00:27:31.520 of the the commentariat out there.

00:27:34.020 And I think doing quite a good job of it.

00:27:36.300 I guess the the takeaway here is all of these events are supposed to be scripted, right?

00:27:42.100 Like someone walks into the White House.

00:27:43.800 It's a photo op.

00:27:45.040 You shake hands.

00:27:46.080 The deal is already done.

00:27:47.280 The trees are already signed.

00:27:48.460 We're already capitulating before anyone gets in the room.

00:27:51.820 Most people didn't expect an actual live fire exercise, right?

00:27:55.900 Like, oh, we're in a negotiation where negotiations are taking place.

00:27:59.900 That's not OK.

00:28:00.860 And this triggered just an insane blowback from the media and from the wider global elite.

00:28:07.560 Yeah, I mean, part of what's going on here is that I think the Americans don't know.

00:28:13.760 Again, we don't know what to think about what's going on, particularly because Alinsky has

00:28:16.700 been, you know, petulant and unpredictable.

00:28:18.820 I mean, they offered them multiple chances to sign this agreement before.

00:28:22.500 Alinsky insisted on coming to the U.S.

00:28:24.480 It was his idea, not not theirs or whatever.

00:28:27.120 And then Alinsky goes on to, like, try and, like, renegotiate the terms of a deal that

00:28:33.020 everyone thought was, you know, already agreed to in front of television cameras.

00:28:37.320 Like, I don't know, again, like I said, whether he was believing his own press in terms of,

00:28:41.080 like, he thought he had this, you know, this moral high ground over Trump or something

00:28:45.440 like that, or he could get, you know, Trump to blow up in front of the cameras or something

00:28:49.320 like that.

00:28:49.880 But, I mean, it just really, really just destroyed things.

00:28:55.640 And, you know, to be perfectly honest, I mean, it was a really interesting thing from the

00:29:00.060 perspective of, say, a political journalist or a historian or whatever, you know, you almost

00:29:05.220 never see, like, I'm sure world leaders yell at each other and get testy behind the scenes

00:29:10.100 when they're hammering out these deals.

00:29:11.280 And that's fine.

00:29:11.880 And that's to be expected.

00:29:12.820 It just rarely happens between in front of cameras.

00:29:15.700 And I think, honestly, the Trump people never wanted this to happen in front of the camera.

00:29:20.980 I mean, that's very obvious.

00:29:22.440 I mean, Trump is extremely television savvy.

00:29:24.960 And he, you know, did a remarkable job keeping his cool and handling the situation, I thought,

00:29:29.660 you know, for a guy that supposedly does nothing but, you know, you know, watch the guerrilla

00:29:33.920 channel and be, you know, you know, angry all the time or whatever, you know, Trump is supposed

00:29:39.220 to be.

00:29:40.960 And I just think that we should have drawn a lot of really good lessons from this.

00:29:47.500 You know, again, just step back and look at, you know, who has what incentive here, who said

00:29:52.880 what, who behaved in what way.

00:29:54.840 And we're again, we're just stuck in this, you know, loop where partisan politics and

00:30:00.540 everything else is just such a destructive force in terms of like, you know, coming to

00:30:05.140 an agreement.

00:30:05.620 And that's because, like I said, I keep coming back to this thing, like the highest value

00:30:10.380 here should be, you know, coming to some sort of peace deal that we think can last or that

00:30:15.200 we can enforce to stop the dying, right?

00:30:19.020 You know, war is really, really bad.

00:30:20.900 And this, this has been, you know, going on for, for three years now, and it's been absolutely

00:30:25.520 horrific.

00:30:26.460 Um, and you know, there are, and it's been horrific in ways that I don't even think we're

00:30:31.140 sort of, you know, beginning to wrap our heads around.

00:30:33.640 I mean, like all this footage of soldiers being killed by drones and there's just hundreds of

00:30:38.120 hours and this stuff on the internet now.

00:30:40.540 I mean, people talked about how awful it was that, you know, they had, you know, body bags

00:30:43.900 from Vietnam at the end of the evening news.

00:30:45.600 I mean, like we're, we're hyper drive on that stuff now.

00:30:49.140 Um, and I just, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills that, that the number one concern here

00:30:56.580 from all sides, whether you agree with what Trump is trying to do or not, isn't how can

00:31:00.880 we end this war?

00:31:02.080 Like I'm willing to have a conversation with someone that doesn't agree with me or someone

00:31:05.720 that makes a coherent argument.

00:31:07.440 Well, if we give Ukraine more aid in this specific way, we can get to this point.

00:31:13.220 Maybe six months down the road where they'll be in a better position to negotiate and we

00:31:17.920 can get, you know, more from the Russians and, you know, the peace will be more lasting.

00:31:21.660 I'm willing to entertain those arguments.

00:31:23.560 Like, I'm not like willing to say, Oh, we've got to get out of this now.

00:31:27.400 We've got to cut off all eight immediately, et cetera.

00:31:29.260 But in the absence of anyone doing anything other than just screaming Putin bad at the

00:31:36.460 top of their lungs, you know, and Trump bad at this, you know, um, it's, it's incredibly

00:31:43.640 frustrating.

00:31:44.120 Like, like, where are the serious people on the pro Ukraine side of this?

00:31:48.980 Um, I mean, I, there are some, like I said, I was pleasantly surprised all my, all my pro

00:31:54.920 Ukraine friends that are nominally on the right were very clear eyed about Zelensky screwing

00:31:59.420 up, you know, obviously, you know, people like Lindsey Graham, you know, to my much,

00:32:03.080 much, my delight have been very clear eyed about Zelensky being the problem here.

00:32:07.580 Um, but you still have a huge, huge number of people in the media and, and Democrats in

00:32:14.360 Congress.

00:32:14.700 I mean, like you just, just stop like Chris Murphy's probably, you know, dreaming up another

00:32:18.980 insane conspiracy to blame Trump for all of this.

00:32:21.740 Um, but we, we've got to just, you know, get unified in this notion that, you know, ending

00:32:26.620 war is sooner rather than later is, is a good thing.

00:32:30.480 So you've always been picky about your produce, but now you find yourself checking every label

00:32:35.220 to make sure it's Canadian.

00:32:36.620 So be it at Sobeys.

00:32:39.480 We always pick guaranteed fresh Canadian produce first.

00:32:42.620 Restrictions apply.

00:32:43.580 See in store or online for details.

00:32:47.740 Yeah.

00:32:48.380 The, uh, the approach here, uh, is particularly interesting when it comes to, uh, Lindsey Graham,

00:32:55.380 because when you've lost Lindsey Graham on this issue, you've lost, right?

00:32:58.860 Like that's kind of the show.

00:33:00.520 You would think.

00:33:01.440 Yeah.

00:33:01.580 But, but, but, but to be fair, you know, guys like he and McConnell have been pretty

00:33:06.520 upfront about what their wind condition is in Ukraine.

00:33:10.980 Uh, it's to the last Ukrainian, right?

00:33:13.560 Like, like, you know, Mitch McConnell's like, it costs us pennies on the dollar to get Russians

00:33:18.220 to be murdered and to murder Ukrainians.

00:33:20.800 And as long as it's pennies on the dollar to, to murder Russians and Ukrainians, we're going

00:33:25.480 to pay it, right?

00:33:26.200 Like, like he has not minced words on, on kind of this, that, that ultimately this is like

00:33:31.240 some kind of value proposition that as long as they're not shooting as explicitly at American

00:33:36.060 troops, we might as well burn every dollar we can to kind of, you know, wear down this

00:33:40.800 geopolitical enemies, but it's possible to be perfectly crass.

00:33:44.060 When this war launched the, you know, the straight up, you know, calculation, look, we're

00:33:50.020 going to spend a hundred billion dollars.

00:33:51.160 We're going to destroy half of Russia's war machine.

00:33:53.800 And yeah, a lot of people die in the process, but that might be in the U S a strategic interest.

00:33:58.100 Like I, I, you know, it, like I said, it's crass.

00:34:01.200 I don't want to see any more death than necessary, et cetera.

00:34:03.500 But like, as, as a matter of real politic or whatever, and you think, or you think Russia

00:34:07.720 is a threat.

00:34:08.440 Okay, fine.

00:34:09.240 But that lasted about six months to a year, you know, and we're in year three of this

00:34:14.900 now, like, again, tell me where this ends.

00:34:19.020 And I think what's going on here is the American people may realize they made a really big mistake

00:34:23.920 in Afghanistan, which is that we just trusted our leaders, you know you know, whatever you

00:34:31.940 want to say about the Iraq war sideshow and however bad that was the fact of the matter

00:34:36.760 is, is that Afghanistan was a staging ground, the Taliban are evil, and they did attack us

00:34:41.360 on our own soil.

00:34:42.420 So we're just going to trust that our leaders are going to go over there and take care of

00:34:46.120 business.

00:34:47.000 That's not what happened.

00:34:48.500 We spent 20 years in the country.

00:34:50.920 Um, you know, I think more, more American soldiers died in Afghanistan under Barack Obama

00:34:56.160 than died under George W. Bush.

00:34:59.160 I mean, it was a complete ongoing goat rodeo where there was zero accountability.

00:35:05.940 I mean, you know, basically like, you know, you know what happened in the beginning of

00:35:09.240 World War II?

00:35:09.740 I mean, um, you know, Marshall went around firing generals right and left until he got

00:35:14.440 to, you know, the, the guys that, that could win, you know, Patton, um, you know, uh, MacArthur,

00:35:20.980 um, you know, et cetera, until he, you know, you know, how many generals were fired in, in

00:35:25.640 Afghanistan?

00:35:26.400 What new McChrystal was relieved of command because he embarrassed Obama in the press, not

00:35:31.540 because he did a really crappy job of, you know, actually fighting the war.

00:35:34.660 You know, we, we won World War II with something like seven, four-star generals.

00:35:38.100 We had, you know, 44, you know, four-star generals currently.

00:35:41.680 And what good have they done us?

00:35:43.660 Like the American people are looking at Ukraine and any potential involvement in that war and

00:35:49.560 are not going to say yes to anything at this point without having some sort of assurances.

00:35:57.380 Like Zelensky wants insurances and peace, you know, peace guarantees.

00:36:01.560 Well, guess what?

00:36:02.540 The American people want, you know, they want to know that their, their interests are taken

00:36:07.360 care of after what we, we've been subject to, um, you know, and the fact that Zelensky

00:36:14.340 doesn't seem to sort of like recognize that.

00:36:16.860 And again, Trump is trying to find a way to give him a guarantee that he can take back to

00:36:22.120 the American people and, you know, and say, Hey, you know, yeah, I'm doing this thing for

00:36:27.220 Ukraine, but you know, don't worry, I got your back.

00:36:29.960 You know, we're not going to get mired in this.

00:36:31.820 We're going to, you know, we're going to get something out of this, but we're going

00:36:34.480 to do our best to, to, to help Ukraine.

00:36:36.560 I, you know, he can sell that to the American people, but Zelensky doesn't want that.

00:36:40.560 He wants to find ways to trip up Trump, to find ways that he can set up trip wires to

00:36:47.440 get the U S more deeply involved in this conflict and, you know, prolong the war or whatever.

00:36:52.200 And, and how, you know, and, and whatever his, his goal is, I don't get it, but that's

00:36:57.520 what's going on.

00:36:58.360 And the American people aren't having any of it.

00:37:00.840 I mean, I just, you know, like I said, I mentioned the polling data and things like

00:37:03.500 that.

00:37:03.660 I mean, people much favor, you know, Trump's approach.

00:37:06.960 They're still skeptical of even Trump.

00:37:08.640 I think, you know, it's, you know, there's a plus two approval rating in Ukraine.

00:37:11.600 It's not like he's got a huge mandate here, but they, they, they're, they still trust him

00:37:15.320 for being explicit about trying to end this conflict sooner rather than later, more than

00:37:19.360 the alternative, which is still, you know, the, the, the dominant voice in institutional

00:37:24.620 Washington, you know, fight this to the last man.

00:37:27.220 And the American people want none of that.

00:37:29.820 They're willing to help Ukraine, but they want to be told that there's a plan here and

00:37:34.020 no one on the, on the pro Ukraine side, hardly is making any effort to step up and be like,

00:37:38.980 Hey, here's what we can do, uh, with an eye toward ending this in six months, a year, whenever

00:37:43.900 it is.

00:37:45.400 Yeah.

00:37:45.940 Again, I feel like we're running on the fumes of the end of history narrative here.

00:37:50.820 You know, it's easy to sell the global American order when you're in the 1990s.

00:37:57.220 It's everyone is relatively wealthy.

00:37:59.800 It seems like an infinite horizon.

00:38:02.040 Uh, you can only really see everything going up from here.

00:38:04.760 You've got things like desert, desert storm, where you just like come in and bomb everything

00:38:09.240 and in a month you've won, right?

00:38:11.080 Like it, you know, you just kind of, uh, get these amazing shock and awe victories.

00:38:14.840 That's what it feels like to have superior, uh, military technology.

00:38:18.700 But now we've hit several different limits simultaneously.

00:38:23.500 We're noticing that internally our politics is more divisive.

00:38:27.220 Uh, you know, wealth generation, uh, standard of living, uh, you know, uh, starting families

00:38:32.640 like all, uh, there's a lot of issues internally that we could really use the effort, the money,

00:38:37.560 all of these things, uh, to, to, to resolve simultaneously.

00:38:40.620 We're also finding that the kind of military force that can maintain this vast, uh, advantage

00:38:48.380 in military technology also has very specific weaknesses.

00:38:52.600 Uh, and, uh, you know, again, I, you know, grew up on military bases.

00:38:58.580 Lots of my friends are active in military, have nothing but the highest respect for the

00:39:02.180 fighting capability of the American military.

00:39:05.140 But the structure, especially in its management, uh, is just not yielded victory.

00:39:09.960 It's very clear that we have, uh, an advantage when it comes to, uh, technology and logistics.

00:39:15.560 Uh, but, you know, particularly in, in our will to fight, uh, long-term, like we simply

00:39:20.860 do not have that.

00:39:22.040 And if you're going to maintain a global empire and a rules-based international order, you can't

00:39:26.780 shy away from these kinds of checks or these kinds of challenges to your power.

00:39:31.660 And I think ultimately, uh, the answer is that you probably just don't have the interest

00:39:36.880 in the United States projecting its will into every third world country that's willing

00:39:41.000 to pick up AK-47s or even fly some cheap drones into your troops.

00:39:46.020 And ultimately you have to start making decisions about whether you think that this is, uh, you

00:39:50.100 know, kind of a good return of investment.

00:39:52.700 Is this really worth expending our blood and treasure for these kinds of things?

00:39:55.900 And I think those are the calculations that people are ultimately making in this scenario.

00:40:00.360 Yeah.

00:40:00.380 Well, look, and again, this speaks to one reason why we need peace or, you know, sooner

00:40:06.440 rather than later.

00:40:07.240 And the reason why is like, look, even if you accept the fact that you don't trust that

00:40:11.060 Russia may not invade Ukraine again, and you know, five years or two years or whatever,

00:40:16.620 the reality is, is that this conflict has been extremely draining on everybody's resources.

00:40:22.300 Um, you know, and we need time to rearm and rebuild.

00:40:26.180 Um, and you know, Europe keeps talking about it.

00:40:29.860 Well, gosh, this threat has been so bad and it's right on our doorstep.

00:40:33.980 And, and we, you know, America has shown that, uh, um, they're not going to have our back.

00:40:38.360 Well, then if they really believe that they should want peace because that will buy them

00:40:42.460 some time to spend some money and get their armies up to snuff if they can't count on us.

00:40:47.140 But right now, if Western Europe wants to go to war in Ukraine, they can't do it without us.

00:40:53.340 Right.

00:40:53.740 Um, so everybody needs time, you know, a lot of what we're doing right now is we're trying to,

00:40:59.120 you know, um, fix our sclerotic military or whatever.

00:41:02.140 We're spending way too much money.

00:41:03.180 The Pentagon isn't passing audits.

00:41:04.680 We have to reorient, you know, toward the Pacific with all the threat that China poses.

00:41:08.660 You know, our shipbuilding capacity compared to China is horrific.

00:41:12.240 You know, we've got to deal with all these things or whatever.

00:41:14.660 So we need some time to catch a breath and rearm.

00:41:17.580 Yes.

00:41:17.900 You're betting that you're going to do a better job rearming than Russia is in the next,

00:41:20.920 you know, however many, you know, years before the next time we have to confront Russia,

00:41:24.140 if you think that's going to happen again.

00:41:26.080 But I'd say that's a good bet at this point in time.

00:41:29.400 Um, you know, so again, even if you think that you can't count on the U S you know,

00:41:34.220 from a strategic standpoint, you should want to, you know, rearm.

00:41:38.420 And as for the other question of whether or not Western Europe can rely on us and all this talk

00:41:43.040 about it, I, I mean, this is again, just incredibly frustrating.

00:41:47.640 Um, I mean, aside from the fact that I have my own issues with, um, Western Europe right

00:41:55.140 now, like there's someone, someone, you know, joke that, you know, if we don't protect, uh,

00:41:59.840 um, Europe from Russia, it'll become a totalitarian state where they arrest people for social medias

00:42:04.660 to be close, you know?

00:42:06.180 I mean, um, part of the reason, part of the problem, you know, Western Europe, you're having

00:42:10.960 trouble arming itself and maintaining standing armies is like the governments of their own

00:42:15.480 societies don't, don't have faith in their own people in their own civilization and feel

00:42:19.880 it's worth defending, you know?

00:42:22.060 Um, so, uh, and, and then finally, just as a matter of real politic, um, you really think

00:42:29.980 that, you know, you're going to sever military ties, you know, with, with America and you're

00:42:36.400 not going to be able to count on us.

00:42:37.800 Really?

00:42:38.840 You think that's, what's going to happen after all our history, nevermind our economic incentives

00:42:42.900 and everything else to be the security guarantor of Europe.

00:42:45.460 Maybe it won't be that at the same level it had been, maybe we'll have to make some realignments

00:42:50.020 because we've got to fight China, which is another issue, which is a security guarantee

00:42:53.340 for Europe.

00:42:54.000 You know, if, if, you know, if you're not, if the U S isn't leading a global international

00:42:57.940 order, does Europe really want China being the one to do that in the absence of our

00:43:02.760 submarines patrolling the, the, the fjords in Norway, do they want Russian submarines

00:43:07.740 there?

00:43:08.260 I mean, really, that's, you're going to tell me like Donald Trump is handling the things

00:43:12.060 is so scary and so bad that you're going to roll the dice on creating a power vacuum

00:43:17.660 and not having, uh, um, the U S there as your guarantor.

00:43:21.500 Um, you know, I, it's, it's, it's preposterous at the end of the day.

00:43:25.580 Um, look, I, I, I, I understand that tempers are hot and people, you know, you know, we

00:43:31.060 got to, I don't know, maybe have smooth over and have some diplomacy here that, uh, you

00:43:35.880 know, gets things back on track with Europe.

00:43:37.420 And I think that will come over time, but the, the irresponsible rhetoric in the meantime

00:43:42.080 is just not helping.

00:43:43.120 Um, and I'm going to say what you want about Trump.

00:43:45.540 I mean, I don't think he's been nearly as bad as some of these European leaders in terms

00:43:49.480 of how they've behaved.

00:43:50.400 Oh no, of course not.

00:43:52.300 No, the, yeah, I was just in, uh, uh, London for, uh, this arc conference and the mood from

00:44:00.860 pretty much everyone that I spoke to from, you know, UK, Germany, uh, you know, a number

00:44:06.140 of these, uh, countries was, yeah, we, who would ever die for the, who would ever fight and

00:44:12.580 die for the politicians that are currently arresting our, uh, fathers and sons for trying to protect

00:44:20.000 our daughters from Muslim rape gangs.

00:44:22.020 Are you going to go, you're going to go fight in Ukraine for a government that won't currently

00:44:26.600 protect you from Pakistani rape gangs?

00:44:28.760 Like, no, that there's no interest.

00:44:30.840 Like you're, you know, I know, uh, people I was talking to in Germany.

00:44:34.200 Oh, well, we oppose some of this stuff, but we're terrified to say a word because we think

00:44:38.440 the government's literally going to come for our children.

00:44:40.740 Like there are a lot of right-wing people who just won't say anything because they're

00:44:44.440 very terrified that the state is going to come for them.

00:44:46.800 And relatively justified in that concern.

00:44:50.380 So, you know, the, the idea of, you know, the, as they lecture you about our shared values,

00:44:55.080 our shared values, which value would that be, uh, the, the enabling of industrial scale

00:45:00.360 rape of, you know, uh, uh, women in your country, uh, the jailing of men who try to stop it, uh,

00:45:06.400 the intimidation and jailing of people who complain about that policy on social media.

00:45:11.060 I mean, which shared value are we ultimately protecting against the evil Vladimir Putin?

00:45:17.180 I I'm running out of ones where you and he don't seem to overlap on pretty much everything,

00:45:21.700 but who should be patrolling a particular straight that said, you know, you mentioned

00:45:26.500 China several times in your analysis there.

00:45:29.520 A lot of people have speculated that ultimately Trump is attempting to retriangulate and bring,

00:45:34.600 uh, some kind of pressure with Russia against China that ultimately that's his goals to

00:45:38.860 redirect focus there and, and, uh, you know, use that, uh, shared interest to beat back,

00:45:44.100 uh, that, that advancing, uh, geopolitical power.

00:45:46.900 What do you think about that?

00:45:48.280 Do you think that's a viable option at all?

00:45:50.040 Or ultimately, are you just trading one problem for another?

00:45:54.140 That's a, that's a, that's a really good question.

00:45:56.220 I mean, obviously, I mean, it was a cold war masterstroke, you know, that Nixon was able

00:46:02.400 to sort of separate China from Russia.

00:46:04.240 Right.

00:46:04.760 And now we're kind of trying to do that in reverse.

00:46:07.060 Um, you know, Russia has lots of natural reasons to be, um, suspect of China.

00:46:14.380 Um, you know, they share some borders and China's made a lot of incursions in their territories

00:46:18.640 and things like that.

00:46:19.420 It's my understanding.

00:46:20.700 Um, China certainly has eyes on, you know, the vast resources that Russia has.

00:46:26.200 Um, and I don't think the Russian people are natural allies of China, but the way that

00:46:33.900 we've, we've, we've handled this war, we pushed Russia and China closer together.

00:46:39.300 So, you know, if we ever got to a point where Russia was just, you know, giving China free,

00:46:46.760 you know, rain at its resources and profiting off of that, it would be very, very, very,

00:46:51.500 very bad indeed.

00:46:52.460 And that is probably a much bigger threat than whatever happens to Ukraine, um, in the grand

00:46:59.420 scheme of things.

00:47:00.500 Um, it's not to say that Ukraine isn't important.

00:47:02.880 It's very strategically important.

00:47:04.520 And, you know, we, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time in terms of, you

00:47:08.160 know, protecting more than one interest at once.

00:47:10.340 But that, that has to be a consideration, you know, you'd be an idiot, you know, if you

00:47:15.080 didn't look at this situation and say, you know, not only do we, you know, have to find

00:47:19.060 a way to end this war, we also need to be thinking long-term about, you know, finding

00:47:23.560 ways to, you know, leverage Russia against China.

00:47:26.740 I mean, like I said, this is what the Obama administration was trying to do.

00:47:31.400 Um, and everybody was praising them for it.

00:47:33.800 Remember the 1980s called, they want their foreign policy back.

00:47:36.520 I mean, the, you know, the Obama thought they were, the Obama people thought they were being

00:47:41.020 extremely pragmatic about all of that.

00:47:43.820 Um, on some level they were, um, they were always way too Pollyanna-ish about their approach

00:47:49.560 to Russia initially.

00:47:50.780 And they, the pendulum has swung so far the other way that they treat Putin like this,

00:47:54.940 you know, complete maniac who doesn't have, you know, who will never behave rationally,

00:47:59.160 which is, I don't think, you know, the, the way to, to view Putin.

00:48:02.980 Um, you know, he's somewhere in the middle.

00:48:04.480 Yes, he's a bad guy and a thug, but he will respond to rational incentives diplomatically

00:48:09.480 and otherwise, and he should be treated as such.

00:48:11.880 So, yeah, I mean, that is a huge, huge problem that we have to deal with.

00:48:15.940 And it's a side effect of the ongoing conflict.

00:48:18.860 Um, and everybody needs to be a hundred percent, 10% clear that the biggest threat right now

00:48:25.040 is China.

00:48:25.620 It is not Russia.

00:48:26.780 Uh, it's not to say Russia isn't a threat.

00:48:28.580 It's just that, you know, when we, you know, nobody, if you actually care about the safety

00:48:32.580 and security of your children, you should, you know, be concerned about China, uh, as

00:48:37.560 an American, not Russia.

00:48:40.040 Well, Mark, we've started to stack up a number of questions from the audience here.

00:48:43.960 You have time to answer a few.

00:48:45.520 Absolutely.

00:48:46.580 All right.

00:48:47.160 Well, before we head over there, is there anything that we didn't touch on or anything

00:48:51.380 you want people to check out?

00:48:52.600 Any work that you are currently engaged in?

00:48:55.480 You want people to read or?

00:48:57.100 I, for a variety of ways, a variety of reasons I won't go into right now, but I've been a

00:49:00.480 bit of a cave for the last month or two, some international travel and helping my wife

00:49:04.840 out with a big project and some other things.

00:49:06.360 So, um, no, as a matter of fact, just, you know, realclearpolitics.com and thefederalist.com.

00:49:13.880 Fair enough.

00:49:14.520 All right, guys, let's head over to the questions of the people real quick.

00:49:18.240 Uh, Bram Zwingel says it's always 1938 to these sorts.

00:49:23.340 Yeah, this is unfortunately one of the problems, uh, of only teaching basically two periods in

00:49:29.940 history.

00:49:30.460 Uh, no one has any context.

00:49:32.280 And so every, everybody has to fit into particular archetypes from exactly this one period.

00:49:38.760 Uh, I don't think like, as we've said, we'll do this one more time.

00:49:42.540 Vladimir Putin is a bad person.

00:49:44.140 However, Vladimir Putin is not Adolf Hitler.

00:49:46.720 It's not even close.

00:49:48.120 Vladimir Putin is close to, you know, the kind of bad guy that has run most large countries

00:49:53.680 throughout history.

00:49:54.620 Uh, and that's just a thing that I think most people kind of need to come to grips with.

00:49:58.600 And let me just say what I hate, particularly about the over-reliance on World War II analogies.

00:50:03.760 That is the last point in history that the American left will concede that America was

00:50:08.520 a force for good.

00:50:10.820 And even then they kind of regard it as an anomaly because, you know, Jim Crow, you know,

00:50:14.940 extended another, you know, 25, 25 plus years or whatever, um, 26 years.

00:50:21.040 Um, and so, uh, I'm sorry.

00:50:26.480 I happen to believe that America has been a force for good.

00:50:30.180 Um, you know, it's done some, some very bad things too, but, but on the whole, I don't

00:50:35.300 think any other quote unquote country or empire or however you want to view it has been as

00:50:39.840 force a good for the overall world than America has since its inception.

00:50:43.900 Okay.

00:50:44.340 And so the idea that we're just going to focus on this one point is true.

00:50:48.680 It might've been America's finest hour in a lot of ways, but there've been plenty of

00:50:52.520 good done since then.

00:50:53.580 My dad is a Vietnam veteran.

00:50:55.280 You're not going to tell me that my dad didn't go over there.

00:50:57.980 And as badly as he botched that war and everything else, it doesn't change the fact that America

00:51:02.680 still fought, you know, bravely to maintain, you know, order against, you know, soul destroying

00:51:09.260 communists that had killed a hundred million people in the last century.

00:51:11.980 Right.

00:51:12.880 You know, even, even as a gray conflict as Vietnam, America was still on balance, good

00:51:19.240 and righteous.

00:51:20.140 And I hate that the only time that America can see the only, the only place that everyone

00:51:27.160 can agree that America was good was from 1941 to 1945.

00:51:32.200 I mean, it's just stupid and it's reductive and I'm tired of it.

00:51:35.640 I also get very confused with these analogies because it's always like, well, as you know,

00:51:39.340 as soon as he defeats Ukraine, he's just going for the rest of Western Europe.

00:51:43.860 And it's like, guys, can you explain to me, is Vladimir Putin losing a war against Ukraine

00:51:49.560 and he's only a few months away from defeat or is he going to be marching all the way to

00:51:54.520 Andalusia?

00:51:55.240 Can I get one of those two answers correct?

00:51:58.420 Because it can't be both.

00:51:59.940 And yet amazingly, it always is.

00:52:02.560 He, he, he's, you know, what one more shipment of weapons away from complete annihilation

00:52:07.980 and also one more, uh, you know, uh, shipment of weapons away from just completely running

00:52:14.280 the board into Western Europe.

00:52:16.100 This goes back to what I was saying about treating Putin.

00:52:18.180 Like he's not a rational actor whatsoever.

00:52:20.160 It is very, very obvious.

00:52:21.900 Look at a freaking map that Ukraine has a very specific strategic interest for Russia.

00:52:30.460 Okay.

00:52:31.420 Very, very specific.

00:52:33.080 What would be Russia's strategic interest?

00:52:36.060 Nevermind the, the cost and the, all the problems associated with them going on to invade

00:52:42.340 Poland.

00:52:42.840 Like, like it's insane to contemplate given the losses they've suffered just in Ukraine,

00:52:48.540 but Ukraine, they have a specific interest that everybody can understand why, but, but

00:52:52.360 again, I, yeah, you're exactly right.

00:52:54.180 And I think the larger problem is this, this, uh, complete rejection of the idea that international

00:53:01.980 actors have their own interests, right?

00:53:04.160 Like they're either evil and want to conquer the world or they're on our side and there's

00:53:09.580 just nothing in between there.

00:53:11.300 There's no understanding that there are spheres of influence, international relations, like Samuel

00:53:16.940 Huntington was just way more right than most people, though.

00:53:19.740 He did get the idea that they wouldn't go into Ukraine wrong in his predictions.

00:53:23.180 But the point being is ultimately that this understanding that you are going to have world

00:53:28.240 actors, they are going to try to project power is just thrown to the trash because everyone

00:53:33.000 is just out to genocide the entire world.

00:53:35.780 If they, you know, if, uh, we, uh, one country doesn't join NATO, it's, it's just absolutely

00:53:41.340 insane.

00:53:41.820 But like you said, you know, no, no, no one's going to look at a map.

00:53:44.480 It's a lot easier to just scream.

00:53:45.840 He's Hitler to, you know, gin up your, uh, necessary support.

00:53:49.780 I suppose.

00:53:51.960 Alexandra here says, I just wrote an open letter to my boss, calling him an idiot and demanding

00:53:56.640 a thousand percent raise fingers crossed.

00:54:00.840 Yeah.

00:54:01.360 Again, I just don't think that Zelensky understood.

00:54:04.520 He thought that the media was in charge in the room.

00:54:07.020 And in previous situations, he was probably right, but he just badly misunderstood that,

00:54:12.820 you know, what, what kind of scenario he was walking into the way in which, uh, the

00:54:16.740 situation had just shifted under his feet.

00:54:19.140 I mean, I think there's something that very specifically understands the very specifically

00:54:23.460 explains Trump's behavior in that meeting.

00:54:26.840 Uh, he's from Queens.

00:54:28.480 Okay.

00:54:30.640 You don't walk up to a guy from Queens and demand something from him.

00:54:34.840 Um, you know, that you are, that he's not getting anything returned for, just end of

00:54:40.420 story.

00:54:41.500 Um, you know, nevermind that it was probably the, the correct calculus diplomatically and

00:54:45.640 otherwise, as much as we wish it hadn't transpired in front of cameras or whatever.

00:54:49.680 Um, but, but it's, it's that simple.

00:54:51.800 I mean, just the arrogance of it is, it's just absolutely, you know, crazy.

00:54:55.580 Um, I get that he's desperate and he's pleading and he's fighting for his country, but, you

00:55:00.740 know, uh, you know, fight, fight smarter, not, not, not, not louder.

00:55:05.900 Zelensky.

00:55:07.740 Jeremy Kearns says no war is just that is waged for dominion and not for defense.

00:55:13.480 Lex Rex 1644.

00:55:15.400 It seems we use Ukraine as a proxy for the PWC in the East.

00:55:21.120 Yeah.

00:55:21.600 I mean, this is obviously true as well.

00:55:23.900 Uh, we didn't get in, uh, we, we kind of discussed other things at length, so we didn't

00:55:27.920 get into the larger question of, um, kind of the global, uh, the global American empire

00:55:33.300 and the post-war consensus.

00:55:34.940 Uh, but I do think that ultimately the reason that this has been flagged as such a critical,

00:55:40.900 uh, conflict is kind of ultimately if one way or another, uh, this ends up, uh, you know,

00:55:47.180 a brokered peace deal and not just an unmitigated win for Ukraine and the larger NATO alliance,

00:55:53.000 uh, then there's some level of admission that there are other legitimate actors in the world.

00:55:58.540 And that's kind of not been our approach previously.

00:56:01.880 We have different opinions about the status of NATO, but ultimately I think there's just

00:56:06.740 a realization that has to come, uh, that you're just not going to infinitely project

00:56:11.760 power.

00:56:12.220 Uh, and you know, you've got a bunch of countries like Europe and frankly, in many cases, Israel

00:56:17.500 that are writing checks that they just can't cash because they ultimately think that the

00:56:21.520 big brother is standing behind them, ready to pound the bully into the ground for them.

00:56:26.200 And that's just not going to be the case forever.

00:56:28.600 And these guys need to be able to adjust accordingly.

00:56:31.800 So I will say that like an immediate aftermath of the fall of the Soviet union.

00:56:35.940 I mean, obviously there was a whole scramble to establish sort of a new international

00:56:40.620 order after the cold war, right?

00:56:42.900 And I think immediately, uh, following that, uh, the George HW Bush Bush people were mostly

00:56:49.200 responsible, did a pretty good job, you know, given the cards that they, they were, they

00:56:53.760 were dealt, but beyond the immediate sort of reaction to it, um, we had a lot of like things

00:57:00.760 happen that had, we had a very intelligent and, you know, um, you know, um, American leadership

00:57:08.900 that the, you know, thought strategically, we could have, you know, secured global order

00:57:13.460 in a rational way for, you know, you know, a century or more.

00:57:17.360 Um, but that's, that's not what happened.

00:57:20.220 Um, and Ukraine is obviously a casualty of that.

00:57:23.400 Like I said, you know, any idiot could have looked at a map and said, oh gosh, you know,

00:57:28.180 Russia's, you know, only warm water port, you know, is, you know, right there.

00:57:32.640 And, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's, you know, if, you know, and if, well, gosh,

00:57:37.660 if, you know, was we, we add, you know, Romania and the other countries or whatever, is it

00:57:41.820 Romania?

00:57:42.300 Yeah.

00:57:42.480 That, that, that have access to the black sea, you know, to NATO, that's going to further

00:57:46.240 upset Russia.

00:57:46.960 Like, like, no, it was just, it was just boiling a frog, you know, one decision after another

00:57:51.160 that, that, that, you know, I'm not saying that Russia's just in what they've done at

00:57:54.780 all, but, you know, certainly there were things where people weren't thinking strategically

00:57:58.140 about the consequences of it and we did not handle that well and, and consequently we

00:58:04.840 ended up with a war of, you know, territory and we should have thought more carefully about

00:58:10.540 avoiding that.

00:58:11.560 Yeah.

00:58:12.140 I think ultimately there were several people in the state department that wanted this,

00:58:16.340 that, that they were hoping to provoke a reaction like this, ultimately thinking that

00:58:21.540 they could pull the, you know, Mitch McConnell, grind them out to the last guy scenario.

00:58:26.940 So, you know, some of it was miscalculation, but some of it was, I think was just malicious

00:58:33.160 calculation and saying ultimately that this, you know, we, we should be able to crush this

00:58:37.520 enemy through a proxy war.

00:58:39.640 We want to go ahead and provoke one again, you know, we, we can debate whether or not the,

00:58:44.660 the natural borders of the Russian empire lie exactly where they're currently being negotiated.

00:58:50.760 But yeah, the, the failure once again, to recognize that other actors, whether you want to give

00:58:55.700 them moral validation or not, we'll have a militarily realistic sphere of influence outside

00:59:02.380 of, you know, the, the borders you have ascribed to them.

00:59:05.280 The failure to grasp that I think is just going to continually lead you into situations like

00:59:09.660 this.

00:59:11.920 Uh, philosophical thirstworm says the ethnic component is undeniable here too.

00:59:16.560 Zelensky doesn't care about the Ukrainian lives because that's not his tribe.

00:59:20.340 Ultimately, there's no real sense of stewardship here.

00:59:24.020 Again, I don't know if I can stare into the soul of Vladimir Zelensky.

00:59:28.720 Um, I don't know if I'd want to sit down and have dinner with the guy, but ultimately I'm

00:59:32.840 not going to try to judge whether or not his leadership is authentic.

00:59:37.300 If his care is authentic, what's clear is that a good number of Ukrainians do feel that

00:59:43.460 this was unjustified and do feel like they needed to, you know, fight against this.

00:59:47.920 Obviously now Ukraine is scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to recruitment,

00:59:51.920 but that wasn't the case primarily.

00:59:53.640 So there are plenty of Ukrainians who felt like they did need to fight to protect a certain

00:59:58.320 amount of this.

00:59:58.980 Uh, you know, even though there are ethnic Russians ultimately in regions of the Ukraine who wish

01:00:04.320 to move over, uh, you know, and be under Russian rule.

01:00:08.040 Uh, so this is just, I think a classic conflict of interests.

01:00:13.000 You know, you, you have multiple people who ultimately see that they, uh, a part of a land

01:00:19.240 is in some way ancestral or, you know, they feel some tie to it and it comes down to who

01:00:24.060 can end up fighting over it and be victorious in the way that almost all war is when you actually

01:00:28.900 get rational about it.

01:00:31.120 Yeah.

01:00:31.520 I don't have a lot to add to what you said.

01:00:33.200 I mean, I think that's, that's all good.

01:00:34.940 Um, but yeah, I mean, a big factor, a big factor in this conflict, it has been the fact

01:00:39.540 that there's a significant portion of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

01:00:44.140 Um, and you know, that has, you know, scrambled a lot of the things that have happened and

01:00:48.400 been used as a justification in good and bad ways.

01:00:52.140 Um, uh, but, uh, yeah, I mean, this is just another reason though, why we need to be very

01:00:58.240 wary and very careful about getting involved in, you know, things like ethnic entanglements

01:01:02.740 for crying out loud.

01:01:03.740 Um, you know, that is like the biggest mess you can get in diplomatically and, and, uh,

01:01:09.900 militarily is to get in the middle of an ethnic conflict.

01:01:12.620 And, uh, I have no desire to, to, to do that unless strictly necessary.

01:01:18.300 There are actual neo-Nazis knocking around this country.

01:01:21.840 So, you know, you might want to consider that as you decide which, you know, again, it could

01:01:28.160 just be that there's bad people on both sides.

01:01:30.220 That's an option like that is a, that is actually the correct assumption for almost all conflicts.

01:01:35.700 Uh, that's, that's why you're supposed to be loyal to your nation, uh, and not, you

01:01:39.800 know, try to, try to guess which one in a foreign country happens to be the moral, uh, superior.

01:01:45.380 Uh, let's see here.

01:01:46.560 Alexandra says, uh, Europe is peddling two narratives.

01:01:49.500 Ukraine is a heroic nation, uh, resisting an invasion and nation, uh, the nation state is

01:01:54.740 fascist relic of a bygone era and resist at his, uh, resistant invasion is the worst thing

01:02:00.280 you could do.

01:02:00.880 Yeah.

01:02:01.040 Once again, uh, blood and soil nationalism, just, man, it pops right up on the left.

01:02:05.140 The minute you get into the right conflict, it's amazing how that works.

01:02:08.600 Yeah, that, that, that's, that's, that's very true, but it goes back to what we were

01:02:12.020 saying also about like the reason why, you know, European countries don't have large standing

01:02:16.200 militaries is because they don't feel like their own country is worth fighting for in a lot

01:02:20.820 of ways. Um, a good measure of whether or not the health of your country is how many

01:02:25.400 young men are volunteering to serve in the military, like, like just going out of their

01:02:29.180 way to do it. Um, and, uh, clearly Europe values its welfare state more than having a standing

01:02:35.360 military. And, and I get that. I mean, I get that how that skews incentives and makes, you

01:02:40.840 know, things difficult politically once you've established that, but, uh, uh, it's, uh, it's

01:02:47.680 a real thing. I mean, you're, you know, Europe doesn't grasp that America still views its

01:02:52.520 itself, um, in, in much more sort of overtly patriotic, um, ways, uh, than, than they themselves

01:03:00.720 do. I mean, they, they see their own, you know, state as a, as a guarantee of their, you

01:03:07.080 know, health benefits or something, you know, whereas we see it as a, as a land of opportunity.

01:03:11.980 Yeah. And, you know, I, I made this point, uh, Elon Musk retweeted it and that got a lot

01:03:18.040 of Europeans very angry at me. And they were screaming, uh, uh, at me for making the same

01:03:22.520 point you did here. And a lot of them said, oh, well, ultimately the United States is the

01:03:26.960 one that created this, uh, scenario. They, they ensured that Western Europe didn't re, uh,

01:03:32.980 uh, uh, remilitarize and, uh, that we diverted ourselves into these welfare states and that we

01:03:38.800 opened our borders. And, you know, I, I think that's a over, uh, simplification in the interest

01:03:44.360 of trying to outsource a lot of your problems there. But ultimately, even if that's true,

01:03:48.060 you kind of have to go ahead and make a decision on, you know, whether you're going to do that or

01:03:53.880 not. At some point, it can't be the fault of foreign nations. Either you're going to recruit

01:03:58.140 and build a military of your own or you're not. Uh, and if you're not even willing to do that,

01:04:02.740 to be some level of contributor to NATO, the idea that you're going to do that so that you can turn

01:04:06.800 around and fight a war, uh, in, in Ukraine, uh, you know, fight a massive power like Russia. It

01:04:12.180 just, it seems like a joke. Yeah, no, I, I, I, yeah, I get that argument or whatever,

01:04:18.320 but it's also true that to the extent that we did defend Europe is because they had twice in the span

01:04:23.520 of, you know, 25 years or whatever, turned the entire continent into an abattoir. I mean, like

01:04:29.120 you guys kind of earned that and I'm sorry that, you know, the custodianship, you know, uh,

01:04:35.460 maybe isn't as, as good in working out in all the ways that you want, but that's your fault,

01:04:39.620 not ours. That's the Britney Spears. You know, you sign things over, you think you want them back.

01:04:44.620 Then all of a sudden you're, you know, posting nudes on Instagram and, uh, you know, dancing with

01:04:48.880 knives, you know? So, uh, I don't know, man, we've got to watch out. The French get weird. Uh,

01:04:53.860 Robert Weinsfeld says, uh, the only analogies allowed are world war II analogies and, uh, not what

01:05:00.560 actually happens in the 1930s or forties, just the 30 minute boomer, uh, history channel version

01:05:06.480 of world war II. Yeah. I mean, obviously we, we saw that from just kind of the response to Tucker

01:05:11.120 and, and Daryl and their discussion. Again, you can feel however you want about historical

01:05:15.440 revisionism, but the fact that that nerve is still so incredibly raw, uh, is so incredibly raw

01:05:20.900 shows the, the load bearing nature of those discussions and how important it is to kind of

01:05:25.180 make sure that there's a, even though we're referencing that historical period all the time,

01:05:28.560 we don't investigate it too closely. Look, it's, it's not even like a function of, of

01:05:32.980 historical revisionism. It's just, I mean, I mean, America has this problem and Europe has this

01:05:40.120 problem and everyone else, you know, we tend to believe the myths that make us feel good about

01:05:45.040 ourselves. And that is a good thing. In fact, I, I think that we should be imbibing, you know,

01:05:51.200 things that make us feel good about our national character. You know, um, you know, I'm very proud of

01:05:55.980 the fact that my, my grandfather survived world war two. In fact, my dad was, my dad was five

01:06:00.840 years old and living in Pearl Harbor when his mom. Um, and, uh, you know, my grandfather survived

01:06:05.460 Guadalcanal and all of that. But, uh, you know, I thought I knew about this stuff and I'll be honest.

01:06:10.400 I mean, I think it was, it was like 40 years old and I listened to Dan Carlin's podcast on a world

01:06:15.540 war two in the Eastern front. And it was the first time I ever really like, you know, innately grasped,

01:06:20.680 oh my gosh, this is how the war was actually won. You know, it was, you know, Russians literally

01:06:25.760 sending millions of people, you know, you know, literally sending waves of people without guns

01:06:30.480 into the German army. I mean, just, you know, our, our conceptions of things are, are very wrong

01:06:36.340 sometimes or, or very much require some sort of balance. And, uh, I think that's very true of

01:06:42.460 Americans and how they view world war two in key ways. Look, we're still heroes. D days was still

01:06:47.340 awesome. You're, you're not wrong for loving band of brothers. Just know that that's not the full

01:06:51.620 story. Well, and even Dan Carlin, knowing the full story is still a cartoon. Uh, sadly enough,

01:06:57.300 every time he opens his mouth on anything political, I'm just like, wow, what color is the sky on your

01:07:02.840 planet, dude? Yeah. The same thing happened, uh, with, um, Mike Duncan in the history of Rome,

01:07:07.540 these history podcasters who I love put together these excellent, you know, series just ended up being

01:07:12.120 like horrible shit libs. It's so sad. Like, uh, you know, Daryl is really my last hope.

01:07:17.020 But I mean, he'll be on Wednesday. So we'll, we'll probably discuss that more, but yeah,

01:07:21.360 all these other ones, it's just amazing. They, they have all this knowledge. They can bring forth

01:07:26.280 all of the counter examples, you know, to flesh out the problems. And yet somehow they still fall

01:07:31.100 into this hive thing when it comes to approaching these issues. Yeah. No, it's, it's really something

01:07:35.660 philosophical thirst worm says, uh, the euros, uh, could use some gorilla channel, uh, to calm them down.

01:07:42.360 Surely it would be better for the brain than the state media. I gotta say, uh, I never watch like

01:07:47.980 live television anymore in general. Uh, so the only time I ever get it is when I'm in a hotel rooms,

01:07:53.360 but man, European television is somehow even worse. And that's impressive. Like, uh, like,

01:07:58.680 I don't know how British television managed to be even more horrific than American television.

01:08:03.840 Uh, but yeah, it's all just like, uh, you know, uh, reality television shows about overweight porn

01:08:10.040 stars and stuff. Like, I, I don't know how they managed to do it, but they, they seem to, uh,

01:08:14.160 eclipse the American trash. It really is something how in the, the, the, uh, international imagination

01:08:20.660 that, um, the notion of the American redneck or hick or whatever is like so dominant because

01:08:27.840 Euro trash is like so real. I mean, Europe, Europe has no shortage of just horribly uneducated,

01:08:35.660 you know, um, you know, people with reactionary opinions, um, uh, themselves. So I don't know

01:08:43.980 where they get off being judgmental about America. And at least, you know, at the end of the day,

01:08:48.520 you know, our rednecks can, you know, I don't know, change a tire and, you know, have maybe had

01:08:53.260 military service or something. I mean, I'll be honest, if anyone's going to save the Europeans,

01:08:58.140 it'll probably be the backwards, uh, you know, people with reactionary opinions.

01:09:03.500 That's true. But I'm referring more toward, you know, more like just a straight up sort of useless

01:09:08.540 white trash, Euro trash kind of, kind of person. Um, I'm just saying they have an underclass that is

01:09:14.320 not enviable. Uh, Thuggo says the same people who want to trans kids and open borders support

01:09:20.980 Ukraine. Why is this? Yeah. Many such cases. I think it goes back to what I was saying earlier

01:09:26.300 about how, you know, in America, at least, um, you know, there is no, the left doesn't have a

01:09:31.960 foreign policy. They have domestic enemies and they project the motives of the domestic enemies on the,

01:09:37.860 you know, whatever, whatever's convenient for destroying Donald Trump in the next election. So

01:09:42.020 Donald Trump wants peace in Ukraine. So therefore they want war in Ukraine. And that's really as

01:09:46.580 simple as it really is as, as dumb as that seems as uncomplicated ultimately, as you think it would

01:09:52.180 be, uh, that, that does actually seem to be the case. He also says, uh, we said no, uh, uh, we said

01:09:57.300 no too many wars before, and then elites did enough narrative building until they proceeded. I was really

01:10:03.900 always shocked that this followed right after the COVID thing, like after the absolute expending of

01:10:08.720 credibility that pretty much all of our Western institutions in global order, uh, burned during COVID,

01:10:14.580 the fact that they immediately turned around and just tried to go to this next, uh, was absolutely

01:10:18.900 stunning. Yeah. Well, and the other crazy thing was, is like, we talked about this happening for

01:10:23.780 months in advance. I mean, Russians amassing on the Ukraine border or whatever, inevitable conflict.

01:10:29.680 I mean, it's not like this was some blitzkrieg thing. Uh, it really seemed like everyone just

01:10:34.520 didn't know what to do or they wanted to let it happen or something. I don't know. I just, uh, and then

01:10:39.400 there, of course, there were the reports that, you know, early on there were attempts to scuttle a deal

01:10:43.500 because, you know, for, for whatever reason, you know, Boris Johnson parachuting in there and

01:10:47.580 screwing things up. Uh, I don't know. Um, but it really does seem like there was just a confluence

01:10:54.120 of perverse incentives there to let this happen. Uh, uh, Mr. Oswald said, uh, World War II, uh, analogies

01:11:03.500 today are as obsolete as civil war analogies during World War II. 80 years apart, crying appeasement

01:11:09.480 is like worrying about the Ottomans. Uh, that is of course true in many ways, but actually we're,

01:11:15.820 uh, you know, the civil war is probably the other most mythologized, you know, period, uh, and

01:11:20.660 reference period in the United States history. So, uh, unfortunately I think we're probably going

01:11:25.620 to continue to get, uh, pretty sloppy analogies from both of those conflicts as that's pretty

01:11:30.140 much the only thing that anyone, uh, learns about when it comes to history. I know, cause I taught

01:11:34.660 it, but the way liberals talk about the South to this day, it's just astonishing to me.

01:11:40.120 Like, like there is nothing that you can say about, uh, the incentives of white Southerners

01:11:46.940 that's too far, right? Everything is some vestigial, um, result of slavery. Um, you know, and it's,

01:11:55.100 it's really, yeah. I mean, as bad as the World War II analogies are, the, the civil war ones

01:12:00.680 can often be, you know, much more personal and much more awful. Well, Mark, that's why

01:12:05.660 when we reconstruct the North, we're going to make you a governor of some kind, you know,

01:12:09.620 you, you, you pick a state, you know, we'll, we'll hand it to you. It's okay. Right. Uh,

01:12:13.620 let's see here. Jacob Zindel says, uh, an end to the war should have been negotiated in

01:12:18.540 the first year of the war before the trench warfare, artillery duels, and the war of attrition

01:12:23.500 began. I mean, yeah. I mean, I think everyone looking at this conflict would have could

01:12:29.860 have predicted that, you know, if things went bad and I think it's safe to say that

01:12:33.260 things have gone worse than, than, um, they had hoped initially, this would turn into a war of

01:12:38.320 attrition in a meat grinder. I mean, and that's where we're at. And I, and again, I just don't

01:12:42.920 understand why people aren't horrified enough by that to, to actually go and deal with the problem.

01:12:48.180 It's amazing that, you know, if you go on, uh, Instagram or not Instagram, um, uh, telegram or one

01:12:54.640 of these, uh, you, you can see a lot of this war footage, but it's amazing how little of this

01:12:58.840 has actually gotten to the public actually. And I don't think that's a, the, that that's an

01:13:03.460 accident. Uh, if most people don't see the majority of the horrific footage, uh, and I, you know,

01:13:09.320 and this is after pretty much every other war has been so thoroughly televised, uh, you know,

01:13:14.700 I don't think that's a mistake. I think they particularly didn't want people to get sick of

01:13:18.780 that meat grinder aspect. Cause that's what they were hoping for. Well, yeah. And there are specific

01:13:22.740 aspects of this war. I mean, like, like drone warfare was absolutely horrifying and I don't think

01:13:28.100 people have any sense of what's coming. Um, um, and, uh, you know, the, the, what's going on in

01:13:35.180 this war should, should really be a warning to us all. Um, and, and, and I don't think enough people

01:13:38.860 are heeding that warning. Yeah. The, the fact that you can just 3d print charges that, and you know,

01:13:44.040 something will just drop out of the sky that you never saw and explode. You really just, you don't,

01:13:48.400 you don't get it. You don't understand until you've seen some of this. Uh, Enrico Palazzo says,

01:13:53.340 Ukraine is a country in Europe. It exists, uh, is this next to another country called Russia?

01:13:58.320 Russia is a bigger country. That was the amazing explanation that we received from the democratic

01:14:03.060 candidate or president of the United States. Uh, I'm sure she would have been doing much better.

01:14:07.780 I had totally forgotten about that, but, uh, but yeah, yeah, that's, that, that's a very Kamala

01:14:13.520 Harris moment. My favorite was the one where, uh, she was talking to kids about, uh, NASA and it's like

01:14:18.500 stars, you're going to see stars and there'll be, you'll, you'll look up and there'll be stars.

01:14:22.900 Just, uh, it's the fact that they even tried with her is just absolutely insane. Uh, Matt

01:14:30.100 Gredier says, so glad Elon saw your tweet. Uh, yeah, no, like I said, uh, it was a while with

01:14:35.940 that retweet. It blew up quite a bit. Uh, got, got some interesting feedback from our European

01:14:40.140 friends. Yeah. I remember when you were just a guy on Twitter and you know, here I am, uh,

01:14:44.000 here you are now that the richest man in the world and white house confidant is, uh,

01:14:48.340 retweeting you and taking your advice. Well, some, some people were kind enough to retweet

01:14:54.320 me before that. Uh, so I, I, I certainly appreciate it. Uh, you, uh, definitely did not do any of

01:15:00.400 that on my own. It was all me. It was actually, it might've been, uh, like unironically, uh, to

01:15:06.720 a decent level between you and Michael Malice, uh, and, uh, and, and hilariously, Braun James

01:15:11.500 pervert. You guys probably were the three people retweeting me the most. So, uh, made some

01:15:15.920 interesting friends and allies there in, uh, in trying to grow things a bit, but I know a lot

01:15:20.560 more about Carl Schmidt now. That's all I'll say. That's good to hear. Though it's, it's funny that

01:15:27.140 that has now become the infamous, uh, point. You know, I spent a lot more time on like Bertrand

01:15:31.060 de Juvenal, but like, he just doesn't have the excitement, I guess that Schmidt does, or at least

01:15:35.500 it's easier. It's harder to vilify me if you're pointing out that I'm pointing to a classically

01:15:40.280 liberal philosopher who's drawing a lot of Aristotle. That's not as spicy, but all right,

01:15:46.700 guys, well, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up. Make sure of course that you are following

01:15:50.600 Mark Hemingway on Twitter. If it's your first time on this channel, of course, please go ahead

01:15:56.120 and subscribe, click the bell notifications, all of that. So, you know, when these streams

01:16:00.400 go live, if you'd like to get these broadcasts as podcasts, you can subscribe to the Oren McIntyre

01:16:05.620 show on your favorite podcast platform. When you do leave a rating or review, it helps

01:16:10.180 with the algorithm. And of course, if you would like to support the show, you can head over to

01:16:14.660 blazemedia.com or shopblazemedia.com. Click on the Oren McIntyre collection and there is merch there

01:16:20.880 for you to pick up. Thank you everybody for watching. And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - March 03, 2025

Zelenskyy Thrown Out of White House, Media Goes Insane ｜ Guest： Mark Hemingway ｜ 3⧸3⧸25

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript