00:00:02.000The Lindsey Clancy trial is effectively done.
00:00:05.000Right now, we are waiting to find out whether an appeal by the defense lawyer to hold off on the mistrial because he wants to try to cudgel one additional juror into just a full acquittal.
00:00:15.000We're still waiting on that, but effectively, this is a mistrial.
00:00:17.000Apparently 11-1 in favor of acquittal, one person in favor of conviction.
00:00:21.000We're going to get to all the details and break down the case.
00:00:24.000I have a feeling I'm going to disagree with some of the co-hosts here at Daily Wire.
00:00:27.000One of those people is, of course, Michael Mills.
00:00:44.000The one fact that is not being reported here though, as everyone is attacking this lone male juror, notably the defense attorney who in, I think an egregious display comes out and singles out this juror.
00:00:55.000One thing that's not being reported is the juror obviously was suffering from postpartum depression.
00:01:00.000So he can't be held accountable for any of his actions.
00:01:08.000So, Michael, one of the things that I find very interesting about this case is that I look at this case and it's a pretty complex fact pattern.
00:01:14.000I actually do not think looking at sort of how psychiatry is done, there's sort of a fake thing that happens in psychiatry where we assume that people are capable of pure, easy diagnosis and drugs are extremely effective in psychiatry.
00:01:27.000And neither one of those things are true.
00:01:29.000I mean, if you spend any time with psychiatrists or with the DSM or people who have dealt with psychiatrists or the DSM or medication, As I've said before, it's probably the least developed area of all medicine.
00:01:57.000And so, in this particular case, where basically the case comes down to, was she psychotic enough not to recognize the difference between right and wrong at the time of the murders?
00:02:06.000I mean, that is the essence of the case.
00:02:09.000And given the fact that Massachusetts law is incredibly biased in favor of the defendant when it comes to the insanity defense, I know a lot of people are very agitated on the right, saying this is a clear cut case, absolutely guilty.
00:02:18.000And a lot of people on the left saying it's a clear cut case, absolutely innocent.
00:02:21.000I kind of find myself weirdly in the middle and not all that surprised that the jury is hung on this.
00:02:27.000I'm kind of surprised it was 11 1 in favor of acquittal.
00:02:29.000I would have thought it would have been more like 6 6 in favor of mistrial.
00:02:33.000Well, I think, no, I think you hit it right there at the end, which is the fact that this was not an ambiguous jury deliberation.
00:02:41.000It appears to have been entirely lopsided in favor of letting this woman off the hook.
00:02:45.000On top of the public reaction to this, which I think has been rather psychotic as well, I think shows you that something more is going on beyond nuanced deliberations over the nature of the statute in Massachusetts.
00:02:58.000Your other excellent point is that psychology is this very muddled science or pseudoscience.
00:03:05.000Psychologists don't even know what psychology is anymore.
00:03:08.000Psychology is supposed to be the study of the soul.
00:03:11.000That's what the word means, or psyche.
00:03:14.000And now I think probably most psychologists don't even believe in the soul or an immaterial soul.
00:03:20.000On top of that, the way the medications work, even beyond psychology, just your other physical medications, if you look on the back of the bottle, a lot of times it will say, We do not really know how this works.
00:03:30.000We just know that it appears to work in trials.
00:03:50.000She certainly wasn't diagnosed with it.
00:03:51.000We know that her youngest victim was eight months old.
00:03:54.000Again, postpartum depression is not usually the kind of thing you have eight months on.
00:03:58.000We know she methodically planned these murders.
00:04:01.000We know that a lot of the drugs in her system appear to have been taken after the killings rather than before them.
00:04:06.000And then you get to the basic point that you're seeing in a lot of the popular commentary, which is, okay, well, look, if she was on a bunch of drugs, if she was a little loony, then she can't be held liable for that.
00:04:16.000And you just have to look at that on a social scale and say, okay, one in four women in the United States is on some kind of psychiatric medication.
00:04:24.000And when you get to the really stronger stuff, it's like one in five women.
00:04:28.000So are we really establishing the precedent here that 20% or 25% of women cannot be held accountable for even the most egregious crimes.
00:04:36.000I was a little more open minded at the beginning of this case, but as the evidence came forward about the nature of her diagnoses and the help she was receiving from her family, on and on and on and on, I don't know.
00:04:48.000And I'm glad to see at least one of these jurors held firm and did not merely take the side that we so often do in our culture, which is defending the perpetrator over the victims.
00:05:00.000Now, again, I think one of the things to mention here is that, you know, I will admit that if I were on the jury, I may have voted for acquittal because I think that the beyond a reasonable doubt provision of the law combined with the insanity defense in Massachusetts putting the burden of proof on the prosecution to prove sanity rather than the burden of proof on the defense to prove insanity makes it a very, very high bar for the prosecution to pass.
00:05:21.000I'm not sure they passed it in this case.
00:05:23.000With that said, obviously, I think that anybody who.
00:05:26.000This is one of the reasons why I think it's such a sin for people to conflate their own personal issues with that of Lindsey Clancy.
00:05:33.000I mean, the reality is that in the United States, every year you have probably 15 multiple.
00:05:37.000Homicides of children from women in circumstances kind of like Lindsey Clancy.
00:05:42.000But you have legitimately, as you say, tens of millions of women who are claiming they're suffering the same thing as Lindsey Clancy, which is totally insane and really, really damaging for the society at large.
00:05:51.000The defense was basically I would say they have three basic arguments, the defense here, in favor of the idea that she was psychotic at the point at which she committed the murders.
00:06:00.000And you don't actually have to find these totally convincing in order to sustain reasonable doubt.
00:06:04.000To me, the most obvious one, the one that the prosecution, I think, had the hardest time with, was the fact that she tried to kill herself.
00:06:09.000If she just killed the kids and then not tried to kill herself, then that would have been, I think, I would have been like fryer immediately if she doesn't try to kill herself.
00:06:16.000The fact she tries to kill herself is a pretty good piece of evidence that she wasn't, quote unquote, in her right mind in sort of a colloquial sense.
00:06:22.000Now, the prosecution started with the fact that she wasn't really trying to kill herself.
00:06:25.000She only tossed herself from the second story window.
00:06:29.000It seems kind of risky to me to jump from a 15 foot window or 14 foot window, whatever it was, and cut yourself on the arms if you're really just trying to get away with the murderer that way.
00:06:41.000So, The, you know, that one always seemed to cut that piece of evidence, just the evidence itself, seemed to cut in favor of the defense.
00:06:47.000The voice, again, I think is always the most difficult part of this case because there's literally no way to actually determine whether that happened or not.
00:07:04.000So I always thought that was the weakest part, but also the part that her case rested on in large part.
00:07:09.000And then there is the basic idea that she was worried about the medication interactions.
00:07:14.000Again, I thought that was pretty weak for the defense that she thought that she was being, she didn't evidence that she thought she was being poisoned.
00:07:19.000She worried that the medications were interacting poorly and weren't working for her, which is really, really common in psychiatric circles.
00:07:26.000But when you put all of that together and then the burden of proof is on the prosecution, again, I can see how people would arrive at reasonable data.
00:07:31.000I think that it'll be interesting to hear from the jurors afterward about how these deliberations actually went down.
00:07:37.000Is it, as people like maybe you or I think our friend Matt Walsh suspect, that immediately they went into the room, 11 people, nine women and two of the men went, She's acquitted.
00:07:58.000You like to hope that the jury is sequestered and is taking this in a graver and more sober way.
00:08:04.000I don't know that that's always the case.
00:08:05.000And the fact that none of us, I don't think any of us, could have predicted the insane outpouring of support by the women who brought their children outside the court and the craziness on TikTok, none of us has a low enough opinion of women or even of liberal culture to have totally predicted that.
00:08:23.000I think that does tell you something about the moment in which we live and the way that people think about these issues.
00:08:28.000So I'd love to hear the interviews from the jurors after this case.
00:08:34.000We'll see if the Massachusetts Supreme Court grants that emergency stay or whatever the defense is trying to do as a Hail Mary at the end here.
00:08:41.000But it does seem to me that this reflects a broader trend in the culture, which is constantly making everything about the self.
00:08:49.000So everyone is just viewing, putting themselves in Lindsey Clancy's position, is constantly.
00:08:55.000Erring on the side of perpetrators rather than of victims and of misunderstanding even what insanity is.
00:09:01.000So, to your point, Ben, she tried to kill herself.
00:09:04.000Again, you know, there would be more effective ways for her to have killed herself.
00:09:08.000For instance, had she subjected herself to the same kind of torture that she put her kids under by hanging from a noose or something like that, that more assuredly would have done it.
00:09:16.000But the overall facts in the case make me wonder even if she did try to kill herself, okay, does that mean that someone who is suicidal at the end of things? Can't be held guilty for a crime?
00:09:27.000If a husband comes home after a night of drinking, shoots his three kids, kills his wife, and then flings himself out a window, would we say, well, he's innocent by reason of insanity?
00:09:37.000Or would we say, yeah, the guy's clearly pretty messed up, but he is not so messed up as to meet the legal threshold of being without any liability for the crime?
00:09:49.000And I think that that's why I say that it's a piece of evidence, but certainly not this positive as a piece of evidence and has to be taken in consideration with the whole psychiatric history.
00:09:56.000And all the rest of it, your point about the kind of broader societal ramifications, there's one thing here that to me is the most disturbing, and that is turning everything into a societal problem itself.
00:10:06.000So, is it possible that, let's say that you are an advocate for Lindsay Clancy?
00:10:09.000You truly believe she went through a psychotic episode.
00:10:12.000Why in the world does that implicate all of human society?
00:10:16.000Like, what are you protesting against?
00:10:18.000This was the thing that sort of bewildered me when I first saw these protesters outside the courtroom.
00:10:22.000Normally, when you have protesters outside a courtroom, they're arguing a fundamental miscarriage of justice is being done because society is corrupt in some way.
00:10:29.000So if there's a highly polarized racial trial, people show up outside the courtroom to suggest that America's racial past is impacting the, the verdict on this case.
00:10:37.000There was no implication that anything remotely like that was happening.
00:10:40.000It just seemed like a, a kind of cry against the world that somehow all of society is responsible for Lindsey Clancy's psychotic.
00:10:49.000I mean, again, if you're, if you're in favor of her, you believe she's psychotic.
00:10:52.000So in somehow society is responsible for her psychotic state.
00:10:55.000And like that's, that's so bewildering and bizarre to me.
00:10:57.000I don't see how you can simultaneously argue.
00:11:00.000That Lindsey Clancy was psychotic and also that society caused it.
00:11:09.000They're arguing on the one hand, this is totally beyond the realm of logic and sense, but also this is to be expected because of the structural issues.
00:11:15.000Well, those arguments are contrary to each other.
00:11:17.000My most sizzling hot take on the whole thing is that this is just OJ 2.0 for the same reasons.
00:11:24.000I have seen other people make the comparison, but the reasoning I think is important here.
00:11:28.000In the OJ case, you had a black jury let.
00:11:30.000This black criminal off the hook, even though we all know that he killed his wife and her friend.
00:11:34.000And this came bizarrely at this moment when basically all of the racial problems had been fixed.
00:11:41.000So all of the structural racism, all the things that activists were talking about had been fixed according to the left wing black activists.
00:12:13.000There's that very famous study from Yale, The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness, which shows that as feminism advanced, women got less happy, both relative to men and in absolute terms.
00:12:22.000And So, you've got women who have gotten all the things that the feminists said they wanted.
00:12:28.000They are now the majority of students in universities.
00:12:31.000They're now the majority of workers in the workforce.
00:12:33.000They've got all the rights and the abortion and the contraception and on But there still seems to be this problem.
00:12:40.000And it seems to me that the feminist activists here are coming out and saying, you got to let us get away with murder.
00:12:46.000They're asking for the, even in principle, the greatest possible license that you could have.
00:12:52.000That's the ideological dynamic that I see playing out here.
00:12:55.000And there are a lot of people who are under the sway of liberal ideology.
00:12:59.000Yeah, no, I mean, I totally agree that to me, the most controversial aspect of this trial was not the trial itself.
00:13:05.000The most controversial aspect of the trial was everything that was happening outside the trial.
00:13:08.000That was the stuff where I went around and said something is very unhealthy about this society.
00:13:11.000Because again, you know, the OJ case, everyone knew he was guilty.
00:13:14.000In this particular case, I am not sure if I had been on the jury how I would have ruled.
00:13:18.000So it's different just in the fact pattern.
00:13:19.000But when it comes to the actual people outside who are saying it's absolutely clear, not only was she innocent, her lawyer is a hero on behalf of women everywhere.
00:13:29.000And of course, you do have to tie that into the broader left wing belief that somehow abortion is a sacrament.
00:13:35.000I mean, clearly, this comes from the same sort of philosophy that suggests that the only important thing in life is the quote unquote woman's right to choose.
00:13:44.000And it kind of, in very ugly fashion for some of these protesters, underscores something that pro life people have been saying for quite a while, which is, you know, we say there's no distinction between the pre born and the post born.
00:13:53.000So if you're making that argument about the pre born, why aren't you making that argument about the post born?
00:13:57.000And it seems to me that some of these women are, in fact, making this argument about the post born.
00:14:02.000Yes, 27th trimester abortion, as we might call it.
00:14:04.000And that people mocked us and they said that, you know, that was either dark humor or hysteria.
00:14:10.000But of course, if you can kill a baby three seconds before he's born, there's no reason that you couldn't kill him three seconds after he's born or three months or three years, which is exactly what you saw play out here.
00:14:19.000And by the way, that problem too has gotten worse because 20 years ago, you had Democrats saying abortion is bad, but we need to have it for some reason and it should be safe, legal, and rare, as the Clintons said.
00:15:07.000Again, why I think that had I been on the jury, I'm not sure which way I would have ruled, honestly.
00:15:13.000First, here is a fairly remarkable statistic.
00:15:15.000In a recent industry survey, PureTalk was the only wireless company to receive five stars in every single category coverage, support, value, and data, every category.
00:15:22.000That raised an obvious question what exactly are the rest of us paying all this money for?
00:15:26.000I mean, there are a lot of things in life where you're just paying too much money.
00:15:29.000But the reality is, when it comes to your wireless service, you should not be, and PureTalk can fix that for you.
00:15:33.000We've somehow been trained to believe that wireless has to be both expensive and complicated, but PureTalk says something different.
00:16:14.000So, as we announced right at the top, Judge William Sullivan.
00:16:19.000Announced that there was a mistrial in the case.
00:16:21.000Again, the defense were still waiting.
00:16:23.000They're trying to appeal it up to a higher level to see if they can avoid the mistrial and get the one outstanding juror to flip or at least be kicked out in favor of another juror who will then fully acquit.
00:16:59.000Your Honor, I would suggest to the court that, as we are pretty much all familiar with, under Karen Reed versus the Commonwealth, the Supreme Judicial Court through Justice George's back in February of 25 held that under Rule 27B of the Massachusetts Rules of Criminal Procedure, quote, gives a trial judge discretion to require a jury.
00:17:25.000Now, again, we're going to go through the charges because I think that they're the hot takes, and we can try to speculate that people immediately jumped to the defense of Lindsey Clancy here and that they were doing so for feminist reasons.
00:17:37.000But I'm just going to go through what we know and what we don't know.
00:17:40.000And again, one of the problems here is that Massachusetts law is extraordinarily burdensome for the prosecution.
00:17:46.000Very, very burdensome for the prosecution.
00:17:48.000So I'm going to go through the mandatory jury instructions in Massachusetts.
00:17:51.000So here is what judges tell the jurors to consider.
00:17:54.000Quote, the burden is on the commonwealth to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty of the charges made against her.
00:18:00.000What is proof beyond a reasonable doubt?
00:18:02.000The term is often used and probably pretty well understood, though it is not easily defined.
00:18:06.000Proof beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean proof beyond all possible doubt, for everything in the lives of human beings is open to some possible or imaginary doubt.
00:18:13.000A charge is proved beyond a reasonable doubt if, after you have compared and considered all of the evidence, you have in your minds an abiding conviction to a moral certainty that the charge is true.
00:18:21.000When we refer to moral certainty, we mean the highest degree of certainty possible in matters relating to human affairs.
00:18:26.000Based solely on the evidence that has been put before you in this case.
00:18:31.000Now, the key sort of terms there abiding convictions.
00:18:34.000This means you have to have a lasting, settled belief in the truth of the charges.
00:18:38.000You have to have moral certainty, not just a moral feeling like certainty.
00:19:05.000What is proof beyond a reasonable doubt?
00:19:08.000Well, the term is often used and probably pretty well understood, though it's not easily defined.
00:19:13.000Proof beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean proof beyond all possible doubt, for everything in the lives of human beings is open to some possible or imaginary doubt.
00:19:23.000A charge is proved beyond a reasonable doubt if, after you've compared and considered all of the evidence, You have in your minds an abiding conviction to a moral certainty that the charge is true.
00:19:36.000When we refer to moral certainty, we mean the highest degree of certainty possible in matters relating to human affairs, based solely on the evidence that has been put before you in this case.
00:19:49.000I've told you that every person is presumed to be innocent until they are proved guilty, and that the burden of proof is on the prosecutor.
00:19:59.000Okay, so again, it's not clear and convincing evidence or preponderance of the evidence.
00:20:12.000The judge had said that it was basically 11 to 1 in favor of acquittal.
00:20:15.000And Clancy's defense attorney asked for the holdout juror to be removed, supposedly for not considering what reasonable doubt actually means.
00:20:22.000Here's what that sounded like this morning.
00:20:24.000And if we come back here in a half an hour with a mistrial because of a juror that has just spurned the instructions of this court, it's a shame.
00:22:15.000Obviously, I'd want to convict her based on the egregious and extreme.
00:22:19.000And vile crimes that she committed against her own children.
00:22:23.000The insanity defense and the standards for that in Massachusetts are particularly strong in favor of the defense.
00:22:27.000So, the counts of murder, there are three counts of murder.
00:22:30.000The prosecution under the law in Massachusetts must establish the core elements for each child unlawful killing, that Clancy killed the kids, okay, undisputed.
00:22:39.000Mal's aforethought that she acted with legal malice, intent to cause death, intent to cause grievous bodily harm, and intent to commit an act that a reasonable person would know creates a plain and strong likelihood that death would result.
00:22:51.000So, it's the malice aforethought, the intent element here, that is the one that is under consideration.
00:22:57.000Because when it comes to intent, now you have to determine whether the person is in their right mind.
00:23:03.000The physical act is not in dispute, the interference with the person's breathing is not in dispute.
00:23:16.000So, the defense presented the insanity defense.
00:23:20.000Now, the insanity defense in Massachusetts is different than it is in most other jurisdictions in the United States.
00:23:24.000The insanity defense in Massachusetts suggests that it is the job of the prosecution to prove sanity, not the job of the defense to prove insanity.
00:23:36.000So, the Commonwealth versus McCool standard from 1967 says that a defendant is not criminally responsible if, at the time of the offense and as a result of mental disease or defect, they lacked substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of their conduct, have the cognitive ability to meaningfully understand their action was wrong or illegal.
00:23:56.000And the volitional ability to control their behavior, even if they knew it was wrong.
00:24:01.000So they have to lack capacity to control their behavior and also to appreciate the wrongfulness of the conduct.
00:24:07.000Now, this doesn't count for voluntary use of drugs, it doesn't count for DUI, it doesn't count for antisocial conduct.
00:24:13.000And Massachusetts law distinguishes to know from to appreciate.
00:24:17.000So it's not that you know that your action is wrong, you have to appreciate that your action is wrong.
00:24:24.000You have to have a meaningful understanding of the legal or moral significance of the conduct.
00:24:28.000So, for example, Let's say that somebody is psychotic and they believe that God has commanded you to kill your kids because they are possessed by demons and killing them saves them.
00:24:37.000So, in that case, the person might know that murder is wrong, but they might believe that psychosis, because of the psychosis, that God's command supersedes that morality.
00:24:48.000So, you might not appreciate the wrongfulness of the conduct.
00:25:59.000Go to balanceofnature.com today, subscribe to the whole health system or any other subscription, get an additional 10% off with promo code Shapiro and use code Shapiro.
00:26:07.000They'll send you that free guiltless snack with your order.
00:26:11.000It allows us to bring you the content that you want.
00:26:14.000And one of those advertisers that we appreciate is Golden Crest, because as we talk about a lot on the show, our government is fiscally irresponsible.
00:26:21.000And that means eventually, pretty much everything is going to inflate.
00:26:24.000Well, it turns out the thing that has never been worth zero is gold.
00:26:27.000Central banks around the world bought a record 289 tons of gold last year, last quarter, rather.
00:26:52.000If you've been thinking about owning physical gold or silver, check out Golden Crest.
00:26:55.000They've made the buying process really straightforward, transparent pricing, widely recognized liquid coins, zero buyback fees when you want to sell.
00:27:02.000And when you call, you're talking to a real human, not some enormous call center.
00:27:05.000For retirement accounts, metals can be stored at Delaware Depository.
00:27:08.000Golden Crest offers free insured shipping and free IRA storage on qualifying purchases right now.
00:27:13.000Get a free 2026 info kit or a free portfolio review plus up to 25 grand in free silver on qualifying purchases.
00:27:46.000I think they were all in the weeds, even though they have said over and over again under oath that they were impartial, they were unbiased in this.
00:27:53.000But this case has really turned into a disaster.
00:27:57.000And even Kevin Reddington earlier this morning told Brian Inton, a reporter in the courtroom, that he would not do any emergency order to the Supreme Court of Massachusetts because it would be a waste of time.
00:28:08.000Well, when the rubber met the road and Judge Sullivan said mistrial, he filed that emergency order.
00:28:15.000And now I think it is going to be a waste of time.
00:28:18.000I think nothing is going to stop this from being a mistrial.
00:28:21.000And then we start getting to the weeds of who does this new trial kind of favor?
00:28:30.000I think the prosecution will retry this and try to put Lindsey Clancy behind bars for the rest of her life.
00:28:36.000I mean, it'll be very interesting to see how the prosecution attempts to do that.
00:28:40.000Because again, when it goes 11 1 against you, that's a pretty good indicator that your case is very difficult.
00:28:46.000I mean, I've been discussing the standards of Massachusetts law here on the program.
00:28:49.000And the reality is that Massachusetts law is very much biased in favor of the defendant, particularly when it comes to the insanity defense, because the prosecution has the burden of proving.
00:28:57.000That she was sane, the defense does not have the burden of proving that she was insane at the time of the killings.
00:29:03.000That's a very high standard of proof, particularly when, again, as we've been discussing, she not only killed her three children, she then did superficial cuts to her arms, her neck, and tossed herself from a second story window and ended up permanently paralyzed.
00:29:14.000So I think that when most people see that, even just on a colloquial level, you think, that person seems crazy to me.
00:29:19.000I mean, that seems like not the behavior of a not crazy person.
00:29:22.000And so when you start trying to fit that into what was she doing, does it fit within psychosis?
00:29:27.000That's a burden that's very hard for the prosecution to overcome.
00:29:30.000What do you think the prosecution will take away from the first trial?
00:29:32.000What lessons do you think they will have learned that they think will allow them to do better in a second trial here?
00:29:40.000I know a lot of their witnesses were critiqued throughout the trial, and especially how the prosecution handled their questioning of the witnesses.
00:29:48.000I don't think they made a lot of direct points until the closing arguments, which again, you think the jury, that's one of the last things they heard, but they've been sitting there for a month going over.
00:30:00.000300 exhibits listening to more than 80 people give their testimony.
00:30:04.000And I just don't think the prosecution held control in the courtroom throughout the testimony portion.
00:30:10.000I think Kevin Reddington controlled the courtroom.
00:30:14.000I think he's the one that kind of ended on a low note, didn't end on his best closing argument that I'm sure he would have hoped for.
00:30:23.000But I think this mistrial is a huge win for the Clancy defense, for the Clancy camp.
00:30:29.000I mean, this, you would Think until yesterday, which they all but told us it was 11 to 1, the 11 being not guilty by reason of insanity, you would think it would be more split than that.
00:30:40.000And a lot of experts thought it would be more split than that.
00:30:43.000But when you're sitting in there and listening and you talk about the burden of proof being on the prosecution, and this is beyond a reasonable doubt, they, in a lot of experts' eyes, did not meet their burden of proof.
00:30:58.000Yes, they said she sent her husband out.
00:31:00.000That was weird that she planned to do that.
00:31:02.000But there's no blood test, there's no test to See that moment where you're in your right mind.
00:31:08.000And so it's just been so wishy washy this entire time.
00:31:10.000Like you and I have said from the beginning, it is very, very hard to kind of get into the mindset and make yourself see one way or another because it is someone's state of mind.
00:31:22.000I thought at the beginning, not guilty by reason of insanity.
00:31:27.000Closer we got, I was like, okay, the prosecution's maybe making some leeway.
00:31:31.000And then after they broke for last weekend, this entire week has been one we've seen it.
00:31:36.000The jury has been like, we can't make a decision.
00:31:39.000And Judge Sullivan has sent them back twice and now they're at a dead end there.
00:31:55.000I think that the prosecution had a very difficult time proving beyond a reasonable doubt that she did not have any sort of psychotic episode sufficient to kill her kids.
00:32:05.000And especially given the fact that kind of the fact pattern that they were trying to establish, which is that there was planning that went into the murders.
00:32:11.000I mean, clearly there was planning that went into the murders.
00:32:14.000But I mean, knowing people who have psychiatric problems, I can just tell you that these things are not mutually exclusive.
00:32:20.000I mean, people who are psychotic do actually have very often the capacity to plan to do pretty terrible things that don't lie within the realm of the moral.
00:32:29.000And so, this is to me, so much of this comes down to we are not good at psychiatry.
00:32:35.000Psychiatry is a really rudimentary field of medicine.
00:32:39.000When you have doctors who are sitting there testifying as to she had bipolar one, no, she had bipolar two, it was postpartum depression.
00:32:45.000Maybe it wasn't postpartum depression.
00:32:48.000Maybe it was a manic episode as part of an undiagnosed bipolar condition.
00:32:51.000Like, we are now just using a bunch of labels that are variously applied by different psychologists and psychiatrists to describe the events.
00:32:59.000And I think that in the end, if you're sitting in the jury room and the question that you're being asked is, was it, was this a planned murder of her three children without, with full understanding of the moral culpability of what she was doing beyond a reasonable doubt that she knew what she was doing was wrong?
00:33:16.000Again, it's, it's hard for me to get there, even as, and this is why, yeah, I think a lot of the hot takes, which are like, oh, she was 100% guilty and anybody who thinks otherwise.
00:33:24.000I mean, again, I can see why, why people would, Want to rule that she was guilty.
00:33:31.000But the immediate jump to everyone who thinks that this is a hard trial must be on the side of the feminist loonies who are outside protesting in Lindsey Clancy's favor.
00:33:40.000I just don't think it breaks down quite that simply in the actual courtroom.
00:33:45.000I mean, there is a big difference of these people that I guess have no jobs going out there in their pink t shirts, just having a pep rally for Lindsey Clancy, and then people being like, wow.
00:34:15.000She did the worst possible thing imaginable.
00:34:17.000And now she's in a wheelchair for the rest of her life.
00:34:19.000She's going to be locked up potentially somewhere for the foreseeable future, whether that is a mental institution or a jail cell.
00:34:26.000I think there is a spectrum of this and people that are just so far on each side.
00:34:31.000Are not looking at the facts of the courtroom.
00:34:32.000And I think a good point to pointing out, did she know right from wrong?
00:34:37.000Yes, we know that when she was in the hospital, that she asked for a lawyer.
00:34:41.000Well, at that point, she knew what she did was wrong.
00:34:46.000But again, we're not talking about then.
00:34:49.000We are talking about that hour and a half on January 24th, 2023, when this took place.
00:34:58.000And I thought the defense's best argument, which they really didn't bring it up during closing arguments, was her heart rate.
00:35:04.000At 57 beats per minute during that entire thing.
00:35:08.000Who in the world, unless you are psychotic, can kill your three children, strangle them with force, and your heart rate is the same beat if you were in a lazy river?
00:35:32.000So I want to get into what the prosecution was arguing.
00:35:35.000So the prosecution was basically arguing that Clancy was, in fact, depressed, but she was not psychotic, that she knew what she was doing.
00:35:41.000That she understood that it was wrong the whole time and that she deliberately executed a plan to kill her kids and herself.
00:35:46.000Now, again, that last part that she had a plan to kill her kids and herself, but she was not psychotic to the extent required by law, that is a hard job.
00:35:54.000Because, for example, if you say, if I kill the children, I can kill myself, then, which is what the prosecution was saying, she wanted to commit suicide, but she felt she couldn't do it until after she killed the kids.
00:36:06.000So she knew it was wrong and she did it, right?
00:36:08.000That would be, she knew she was wrong and she did it.
00:36:10.000But if you said, A psychotic delusion made me believe that killing my kids was necessary or morally right, then theoretically that is psychotic, right?
00:36:18.000Again, these are very fine distinctions in a very rough trial.
00:36:22.000Here was the prosecution's forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Gregory Sadhoff, saying that she did this in methodical fashion.
00:36:31.000Did the defendant tell you that the voice told her where to kill the children?
00:37:01.000The fact that the voice, according to the defendant, the voice didn't tell her any of those things, but instead just said, kill the kids so you can kill yourself.
00:37:10.000Is that significant in your evaluation in any way?
00:37:19.000Small amount of time that Ms. Clancy had in the home without her husband.
00:37:26.000It was important in order to carry this out, as well as her suicide, to do this quickly, methodically, and the like.
00:37:38.000Again, that's the case for the prosecution.
00:37:39.000Now, if the jury believed that Clancy was experiencing genuine psychosis, whether it was caused by any of the aforementioned conditions, bipolar I, severe depression, postpartum illness, or anything else, drug interactions, And that she did not actually have the capacity required under Massachusetts law, she gets acquitted.
00:37:55.000Again, this is why I say the burden of proof under Massachusetts law is very high.
00:37:58.000If this has been tried in another state and the defense had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the other way that she was insane, it is quite possible that this verdict goes the other way.
00:38:10.000I mean, she again does not need formally a bipolar I diagnosis or even a postpartum psychotic diagnosis.
00:38:14.000The question is whether she was psychotic to the extent required by law at the time.
00:38:18.000And again, as I've said, there are basically three major arguments the defense can make.
00:38:24.000So, the fact that she tried to kill herself shows, presumably, that she was not operating at least presumptively within the rational framework.
00:38:59.000There are inconsistencies in her account.
00:39:02.000And the third point that was being made by the defense is that she was worried about her medication interactions and that this is all part of a developing psychotic state.
00:39:12.000But, you know, you can worry about your medication interactions and not be psychotic.
00:39:15.000But again, this is where the burden of proof matters.
00:39:16.000Burden of proof in law is super duper duper important.
00:39:19.000If the burden of proof is on the defense, they're the ones who have to pick up the weight.
00:39:22.000Here, the burden of proof was on the prosecution.
00:39:26.000Now, again, there have been some takes that are kind of the other way from what I'm saying.
00:39:29.000Miranda Devine over the New York Post said mental illness is not a defense for murder.
00:39:33.000To be found not guilty, Lindsay Clancy had to be in the grips of psychosis at the time she strangled her three children, to the extent she did not know what she was doing was wrong.
00:39:41.000There's been little compelling evidence for her, other than her inconsistent claim she heard a voice commanding her for the only 18 minutes it took to kill Cora, Dawson, and Callan.
00:39:49.000The evidence is that she meticulously planned and carried out three purposeful killings, taking the children one by one to the basement where she laid them face down, overpowered their struggles, wrapped an exercise band around each little neck, and pulled tight until their bodies were lifeless and the blood vessels had popped in their eyes.
00:40:02.000She then went upstairs and attempted suicide, leaving the gruesome scene for her husband to find when he returned from the errands she had sent him on.
00:40:08.000Despite seeing multiple shrinks and going to the hospital three times, she had never been diagnosed with postpartum psychosis, just depression and bipolar disorder, a diagnosis that she and her husband apparently rejected.
00:40:20.000I'm just going to keep beating the strum.
00:40:21.000Psychiatry is an inexact science, it is highly inexact.
00:40:25.000You can have a series of symptoms, and depending on how you personally describe those symptoms to the doctor, they will give you a different diagnosis.
00:40:31.000And if you go to two doctors with the same symptoms, they may give you two separate diagnoses.
00:40:38.000And Miranda Divine concludes she says, The psychiatric experts who gave conflicting evidence about whether she was in postpartum psychosis at the time of the killings.
00:40:46.000But even if she was, psychosis did not automatically qualify her for legal insanity and absolve her of criminal responsibility.
00:40:51.000All murderers are mentally ill to some degree.
00:40:53.000And again, that is the case for the prosecution.
00:40:57.000I'm not sure they overcame the burden of proof.
00:41:59.000There are a lot of conditions, lots of them, where people do things that are not within rationality and they do not seem to have the capacity to stop themselves from doing it.
00:42:38.000And under the law, the prosecution had a rough case to prosecute here, a very difficult case to prosecute.
00:42:45.000Now, if it had come down the other way and she'd been found guilty, I would be probably defending the guilty verdict as, you know, reasonable of the jurors to come to because I myself am divided on the question.
00:42:56.000The one thing that, as Michael and I discussed up top, that is certainly true is the people who are going crazy in favor of the Lindsey Clancy is some sort of hero to women everywhere, or all women are suffering the issues of Lindsey Clancy.
00:43:09.000That's not only nonsense, it's dangerous nonsense.
00:43:11.000When you say that all women are suffering the kinds of stuff that Lindsey Clancy is suffering, and then you're making excuses, what you are saying is not Lindsey Clancy had psychosis and killed her kids.
00:43:20.000You're saying she was reasonable and killed her kids, and she should be acquitted for that.
00:43:23.000And if she was reasonable, just like every other woman, and killed her kids, and should be acquitted for that, Now, you're making a case that proves that basically any woman should be able to kill her kids at any time.
00:44:03.000Have this many women in one place at one time who may understand all of us.
00:44:10.000Again, as there's one TikToker, apparently a sane TikToker, one of the few, Reed Choi, who points out that basically women are arguing against their own sanity at this point.
00:44:21.000You don't understand what it's like to be a woman who is hormonal.
00:44:24.000There needs to be empathy and she shouldn't be held liable for any criminal behavior.
00:44:32.000We are all the men ever before the 20th century.
00:44:35.000Ew, no, you treated women as second-class citizens.
00:44:37.000What I'm saying is that because women are hormonal deemed incapable of self-governance and therefore requires a male chaperone that can protect and guide the weaker sex.
00:44:51.000Yes, because your hormones have become incapacitated, incapable of making rational decisions, and your emotions have begun to control you like a child.
00:44:58.000And women should not be held accountable during such fits.
00:45:39.000So obviously we'll keep tabs on the On the follow up as it develops.
00:45:44.000We are still at this point awaiting the final mistrial announcement from the court, but it is essentially a foregone conclusion that that will happen.
00:45:53.000And so, you know, we will continue to bring you updates, I'm sure, all through the weekend.