The Ben Shapiro Show - Congress Passes MASSIVE Aid Package For Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan

00:00:00.000 Well, folks, there was huge news over the weekend.

00:00:02.000 Taylor Swift's brand new album dropped.

00:00:05.000 I'll get to the actual news in just a second.

00:00:06.000 I just want to mention, I am putting together a full review of Taylor Swift's new album, which is titled The Tortured Poets Department.

00:00:15.000 The album is 31 songs and 2 hours long.

00:00:20.000 It's a Wagnerian ring cycle.

00:00:22.000 Dante's Inferno only had 34 cantos.

00:00:25.000 I'm not kidding about the length of this.

00:00:26.000 And after listening to it, my big question was, where is this department where they torture the poets?

00:00:32.000 And how exactly do I apply?

00:00:34.000 But just wanted to let you know so that you await the full review, because it is indeed coming.

00:00:38.000 Now, in actual real news, over the weekend, the House approved the long-stalled aid package That had taken a long time.

00:00:46.000 The Senate passed a while ago this $95 billion aid package, and there have been a lot of arguments over that aid package.

00:00:51.000 Originally, it included some border security provisions.

00:00:53.000 Those were then stripped out after Republicans objected that those particular border provisions

00:00:59.000 weren't stringent enough.

00:01:00.000 Then the House, faced with the prospect of complete Ukrainian collapse 0.82

00:01:04.000 in the face of a Russian offensive, faced with the fact that Israel is currently 0.55

00:01:08.000 under significant threat, Taiwan is under significant threat,

00:01:10.000 the House decided, under Speaker Mike Johnson, to take up each one of these issues separately

00:01:14.000 and then package them all together as one bill and convey them to the Senate

00:01:18.000 so that American congresspeople would be put on record about each one of these issues.

00:01:23.000 And all four elements of this bill passed with flying colors.

00:01:27.000 So, there are four elements to the bill.

00:01:29.000 Element number one is the Ukraine aid, which is about 61 billion dollars.

00:01:32.000 That passed 311 to 112.

00:01:34.000 Now, a majority of Republicans did vote against this bill.

00:01:37.000 However, the reality is that the vast majority of Republicans are in favor of Ukraine aid.

00:01:43.000 How do you know this?

00:01:44.000 Because there was an attempt by Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's an opponent, of course, of the Ukraine aid, to zero out the Ukraine aid.

00:01:50.000 She introduced an amendment that would have gotten rid of all of the Ukraine aid in the combined package of the bill.

00:01:55.000 Only 71 Republicans voted in favor of that, so 112 Republicans voted against the Ukraine aid package in total, and that could be for a variety of reasons, ranging from they don't like the size of it to they don't think the safeguards are enough to They kind of knew it was going to pass, but they wanted to get on record with their own districts that they were against it because Ukraine 8 is a very controversial proposition in a lot of red districts, so they figured it's a freebie.

00:02:17.000 This happens in Congress all the time.

00:02:18.000 You know a bill is going to pass, and you're kind of in favor of the bill passing, but for your constituents, you want to make it look like you voted against the bill.

00:02:25.000 That explains that 41 vote differential. 0.68

00:02:29.000 Between Marjorie Taylor Greene's 71 votes in the Republican caucus to zero out Ukraine aid entirely and the 112 votes against the Ukraine aid package in the Republican caucus.

00:02:39.000 In any case, the Ukraine aid package passes 3-11 to 1-12.

00:02:44.000 A second package that was aid to Israel, which is about $14 billion in aid to Israel plus a $9 billion Basically stipend for humanitarian relief in Gaza, unclear exactly how that's going to get distributed.

00:02:56.000 That passed 366 to 58 with 37 Democrats and 21 Republicans against.

00:03:01.000 A Taiwan aid package passed as well, 385 to 34, so that was the most popular package.

00:03:07.000 All 34 votes against that package were Republican votes.

00:03:11.000 So as we'll talk about in a little while, there is this isolationist caucus of the Republican Party that kind of breaks down into a couple of different categories.

00:03:17.000 And finally, there was a bill that banned TikTok in the United States unless they sell off ByteDance.

00:03:22.000 The Chinese government sells off ByteDance, which is the company that owns TikTok, because obviously TikTok is in fact a Chinese app.

00:03:29.000 It also included new sanctions against Iran, considering that Iran is the greatest state sponsor of terrorism on the planet.

00:03:35.000 Those Iran sanctions passed 360 to 58 with 33 Democrats and 25 Republicans voting against.

00:03:42.000 In other words, all of these bills are fairly popular on a bipartisan basis.

00:03:46.000 Any bill that's going to garner you over 300 votes out of the 435 that are actually in Congress, that would be a pretty popular bill.

00:03:55.000 Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, has been under a lot of fire for being willing to bring forward these bills, even if you brought them up individually and then they passed individually.

00:04:02.000 He said, listen, I have to do my job and I can't sit around waiting for Marjorie Taylor

00:04:06.000 Green and Paul Gosar and Matt Gaetz to basically approve me doing my job.

00:04:23.000 I have to do my job.

00:04:24.000 We did.

00:04:26.000 I've done here what I believe to be the right thing, and that is to allow the House to work its will.

00:04:30.000 And as I've said, you do the right thing and you let the chips fall where they may.

00:04:35.000 Naturally, this is leading the Rum Caucus, led by Marjorie Taylor Greene, to go apoplectic over all of this.

00:04:41.000 The idea is that America has greatly sinned against the American taxpayer, for example, by giving all of this foreign aid.

00:04:47.000 We'll get to more on this in just a moment.

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00:05:50.000 Now again, as I pointed out last week, foreign aid represents well under 1% of the American budget.

00:05:55.000 The EU actually is spending more money on Ukraine than the United States currently is.

00:06:00.000 When you have people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who are perfectly willing to vote for $7 trillion budgets so long as President Trump is in office, who are now complaining when 1% of our budget is spent on foreign aid in the middle of two hot wars.

00:06:14.000 I've got questions as to what exactly is the ideology undergirding that because I really don't think fiscal responsibility is the number one issue.

00:06:20.000 And when people suggest, for example, that why aren't we spending this money on our border?

00:06:24.000 We should do both.

00:06:25.000 We should spend money on the border.

00:06:26.000 We should spend more money on the border.

00:06:27.000 By the way, the reality is that the biggest issue on the border is not, in fact, the amount of money being spent on the border.

00:06:32.000 It's the unwillingness of Joe Biden to close the border.

00:06:36.000 I know this because I've talked to the Border Patrol Union.

00:06:38.000 I went down to the border myself.

00:06:40.000 In any case, here is Marjorie Taylor Greene.

00:06:42.000 She's demanding Mike Johnson resign, but she actually has no plan.

00:06:46.000 Mike Johnson has betrayed America.

00:06:48.000 He's betrayed Republican voters.

00:06:50.000 Under his leadership, he's passed the Democrat agenda, passed the Biden administration's policies, and fully funded them.

00:06:57.000 We're going to fight in Congress to do everything we can to stop this type of uniparty leadership.

00:07:02.000 Mike Johnson's speakership is over.

00:07:05.000 He needs to do the right thing to resign and allow us to move forward in a controlled process.

00:07:10.000 If he doesn't do so, he will be vacated.

00:07:12.000 Hey, Congresswoman, you wanted Mike Johnson out. 0.99

00:07:15.000 What is your alternative plan?

00:07:18.000 Our plan is this.

00:07:19.000 We have to give the American people a reason to trust us and fight for us.

00:07:23.000 The American people are supporting President Trump to be the next president of the United States because they've seen him in action.

00:07:30.000 He fought against the Democrat agenda.

00:07:32.000 He put America first.

00:07:34.000 They desperately want him to lead this country again because they trust him and they know he will do that.

00:07:40.000 Well, with all due respect, you didn't give me a plan for the Speaker's role.

00:07:43.000 And again, does this mean you are going to file that motion at some point?

00:07:49.000 It's coming regardless of what Mike Johnson decides to do.

00:07:52.000 And we have three more Republicans joining us from special elections coming up very soon.

00:07:59.000 Okay, so she does not have a plan.

00:08:01.000 And by the way, Donald Trump, there's this assumption out there that Donald Trump wanted to zero out Ukraine aid.

00:08:06.000 Donald Trump has never even implied he wanted to zero out Ukraine aid.

00:08:09.000 In fact, what he has said publicly, the former president of the United States and possible future president of the United States, what he has actually said, By the way, you know what Donald Trump actually does not want to run on?

00:08:17.000 He does not want to run on Ukraine losing because Republicans held up aid to Ukraine.

00:08:20.000 the funding to Ukraine. That is what President Trump has said publicly

00:08:23.000 despite all the protestations of complete isolationism by people like

00:08:26.000 Marjorie Taylor Greene. By the way you know what Donald Trump actually does not

00:08:28.000 want to run on? He does not want to run on Ukraine losing because Republicans

00:08:31.000 held up aid to Ukraine. It turns out that's not an amazingly strong electoral

00:08:36.000 strategy for Republicans. By the way not even an amazingly strong electoral

00:08:40.000 It was Democrats in Congress, for example, who completely defunded the Vietnam War.

00:08:44.000 And a few years later, Ronald Reagan was the president of the United States.

00:08:47.000 Vladimir Zelensky, for his part, the president of Ukraine, he says that they need the shells and they need the equipment.

00:08:53.000 And by the way, that is what's going on.

00:08:54.000 This is not only for offensive actions by Ukraine against Russia.

00:08:58.000 Right now, on the lines, they literally don't have ammo.

00:09:02.000 To be frank, in Ukraine, You really have a lot of people who are ready to protect their motherland.

00:09:13.000 But, of course, the motivation, the morale can go down, especially when they go to the front line and they see that, well, there are no shells, there are no equipment.

00:09:26.000 That's why the aid from the States is so important.

00:09:31.000 And people who were trained They need to be trained by professional people and they need to have the equipment to be used so that they have this equipment not only on the training field but also on the actual battlefield.

00:09:48.000 Okay, so here is the bizarre part of our politics right now.

00:09:52.000 So there is a bipartisan coalition that supports continued aid to Ukraine.

00:09:56.000 As I say, only 71 Republicans totally wanted to zero out the aid to Ukraine, and there are currently 218 Republicans in the caucus, which means the vast majority, about two-thirds of the Republican caucus, does not want to zero out aid to Ukraine.

00:10:08.000 But because we live in such a reactionary moment, the left has decided that the war in Ukraine is specifically the most moral war.

00:10:16.000 Why is it the most moral war?

00:10:17.000 Because Russia backed Trump is their going theory since 2016.

00:10:20.000 That is the only reason you can explain why Democrats were literally waving the Ukraine flag on the floor of the House of Representatives, which is totally inappropriate.

00:10:29.000 They're waving Ukraine flags on the floor of the House of Representatives.

00:10:33.000 The reason Democrats are doing that is specifically because, since 2016, They perceived Russia as the font of all evil.

00:10:41.000 That, of course, is a big difference from 2012 when Barack Obama was running on the idea that Russia was not, in fact, a geopolitical threat.

00:10:47.000 And the 1980s had called and they wanted their foreign policy back from Mitt Romney.

00:10:51.000 And Barack Obama was actually pledging some form of flexibility to Vladimir Putin in 2012.

00:10:56.000 By 2016, they'd flipped because they decided that Russia was pro-Trump.

00:10:59.000 And so that means the Ukraine is therefore the ultimate good, which is why they were flying the flag of Ukraine on the floor.

00:11:06.000 You can't even say that they were doing this in honor of the various allies that the United States was funding because they didn't wave the Taiwanese flag on the floor of the House.

00:11:13.000 They didn't wave the Israeli flag on the floor of the House.

00:11:15.000 It was only Ukraine. 0.76

00:11:17.000 And it is democratic extremism in their rhetoric with regard to Ukraine that has then caused a reaction among Republicans who say, okay, well, even if I agree with the general American interest in the preservation of Ukraine in the face of Russian invasion and atrocity, even if I agree with that, Your bizarre enthusiasm for Ukraine itself in the face of Russia as opposed to other allies is weird from you guys.

00:11:45.000 It's not as though like five years ago you cared about Ukraine.

00:11:48.000 This is super weird.

00:11:51.000 Some say, well, we have to deal with our border first.

00:11:52.000 when you see people like Jerry Connolly.

00:11:53.000 So Jerry Connolly is a congressman from New York.

00:11:55.000 And he said, Ukraine's border is our border.

00:11:57.000 Well, no, Ukraine's border is important.

00:11:59.000 It is also not our border, as you may have noticed.

00:12:01.000 Actually, our border is the one with Mexico that Joe Biden is leaving wide open.

00:12:06.000 Some say, well, we have to deal with our border first.

00:12:08.000 The Ukrainian-Russian border is our border.

00:12:13.000 It's the border between depraved autocracy and freedom-loving people

00:12:19.000 seeking our democratic way of life.

00:12:22.000 Do we have a stake in that outcome?

00:12:25.000 Yes.

00:12:26.000 Undeniably yes.

00:12:30.000 The United States certainly has a stake in the outcome in Ukraine, but the Ukrainian border is not, in fact, the United States border, which is why you can talk about something like a negotiated settlement where the pre-2014 borders are actually not restored, as opposed to if the Mexican government, for example, invaded the southern United States.

00:12:45.000 We would not be talking about giving away El Paso in some sort of land for peace swap.

00:12:50.000 In any case, Ukraine required the aid.

00:12:53.000 Russia should not be able to defeat Ukraine and simply walk into Kiev, which seemed to be the slow rolling disaster that we were watching.

00:13:00.000 Because again, this is one of the habits of the West is get involved in wars quickly and then gradually withdraw slowly.

00:13:06.000 So you lose.

00:13:07.000 We'll get to more on this in a moment.

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00:14:10.000 Meanwhile, the Israel aid also passed by a wide margin.

00:14:13.000 In fact, even a wider margin than the Ukraine aid.

00:14:17.000 The Israel aid passed with 37 Democrats opposing and 21 Republicans opposing as well.

00:14:23.000 Now again, that does symbolize that the Democratic Party has not been completely owned by the radical left with regard to Israel.

00:14:29.000 That a lot of the radicals on the left wing are driving the rhetoric with regard to Israel.

00:14:34.000 But it turns out that the vast majority of Democratic representatives are still pro-Israel and understand the math here.

00:14:41.000 That large-scale bipartisan support for the Israel aid undoubtedly was helped along by the fact that Iran had launched a massive cruise missile drone attack, ballistic missile attack on the state of Israel just a week ago, which I think cleared everybody's mind.

00:14:55.000 And there are a lot of people who are very worried about Hamas and about the Gaza Strip.

00:15:00.000 And Israel had been saying for a while, the real war in the Middle East is between Iran and everybody else.

00:15:03.000 And I think everybody's mind cleared long enough for this aid to get passed.

00:15:06.000 Meanwhile, the Biden administration continues to try to split the baby in the Middle East.

00:15:10.000 Which is the worst possible policy, by the way.

00:15:12.000 The United States should be, throughout, showing strong, stalwart support for our allies.

00:15:17.000 That should be true in Ukraine, it should be true in Taiwan, it should be true in Israel as well.

00:15:21.000 So while Joe Biden is greenlighting a billion dollars in arms shipments to Israel so that they can continue to fight the war against Hamas and fight against Hezbollah in their north, While he is pushing forward and he will sign this combined aid package that includes a bunch of aid to Israel, the Biden administration is simultaneously attempting to sanction particular battalions of the Israeli Defense Force.

00:15:43.000 There's one battalion called the Netzach Yehuda Battalion, which is active in the West Bank.

00:15:49.000 And the Biden administration is now considering the possibility of sanctions against a full military unit, which is weird because that's not the way military units work.

00:15:58.000 A military unit is typically not a group of people who stay in the same unit, and that unit is not always stationed in the same place.

00:16:05.000 Right now, the Netzach Yehuda unit, for example, is stationed up north on the border with Hezbollah.

00:16:10.000 And it turns out membership in various army units changes over time.

00:16:13.000 So some people who commit atrocities, for example, might shift out of the unit, And some new people might shift in.

00:16:21.000 So sanctioning a quote-unquote battalion is a very weird thing to do.

00:16:24.000 And it serves as the predicate for future Democrats to claim that Israel is violating human rights and therefore all aid has to end.

00:16:30.000 This is what Israel is worried about.

00:16:31.000 And by the way, that's not just Bibi Netanyahu worried about that.

00:16:33.000 That's the entire spectrum of the entire Israeli political establishment.

00:16:36.000 That includes Yair Lapid all the way on the left and includes Bibi Netanyahu all the way on the right.

00:16:41.000 It includes Yoav Galant, who's the defense minister.

00:16:43.000 It includes Gadi Eisenkot and Benny Gantz, who are the chief opposition to the current government.

00:16:48.000 Again, the Biden administration continues to try to win over those voters in Dearborn, Michigan by splitting the baby, even though they completely understand at this point that Iran is the real threat and all of its proxies are the real threat as well. 0.76

00:17:01.000 The Walla News site, which broke the story on the impending U.S.

00:17:03.000 sanctions, according to the Times of Israel, noticed that this was not an issue of Israel being singled out by the Biden administration.

00:17:08.000 Around the same time the U.S. 0.86

00:17:09.000 began probing Netanyahu, it also started investigating a special forces unit in the Australian army over allegations it carried out human rights abuses in Afghanistan.

00:17:17.000 But unlike the IDF, supposedly the Australian army took significant steps against the unit.

00:17:22.000 However, the reality is that Israel does prosecute soldiers who violate human rights law.

00:17:29.000 If there are members of the police in the West Bank who commit atrocities, they will be tried in military court or they will be tried by Israeli courts.

00:17:38.000 In any case, it's a very weird thing to do to an ally in the middle of a war, and that's why the entire Israeli establishment is upset.

00:17:43.000 But again, this goes to the fact that the Biden administration has a lot of dyspepsia and heartburn over their left flank, despite the fact that, again, it represents a fairly small minority of the congressional coalition.

00:17:54.000 We'll get to more on that in just one moment.

00:17:57.000 First, as you can tell, I'm on the road right now.

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00:19:03.000 Okay, meanwhile, There's a weird horseshoe theory thing that's happening here.

00:19:07.000 We've talked about it before on the program, that you have this constellation of far leftists who are rather friendly toward Hamas, who generally are isolationist on foreign policy, but they're isolationist on foreign policy mainly because they believe that the United States is a nefarious force in the world.

00:19:22.000 They're sort of Howard Zinn or Noam Chomsky with regard to American foreign policy.

00:19:26.000 America is actually bad.

00:19:27.000 That horseshoe theory has now swung all the way around and includes some people on the right.

00:19:33.000 Now, as we'll talk about in a moment, when it comes to isolationism, as we've discussed, there are a bunch of different perspectives within the isolationist perspective.

00:19:39.000 There is the, we should not get involved in foreign conflicts, no matter what perspective, because we need the money here at home.

00:19:45.000 Which means that you're also in favor of cutting spending by the government on a wide variety of other subjects.

00:19:49.000 There's also an isolationism that suggests that whenever America gets involved in foreign conflicts, that tends to taint the United States, not it's about the United States tainting the rest of the world.

00:19:59.000 But there is a theory that has now risen on the right, that there is something deeply malign about the United States, something deeply wrong with the United States.

00:20:06.000 This was made apparent over the weekend.

00:20:08.000 Tucker Carlson was on Joe Rogan's show.

00:20:11.000 Obviously, I'm very friendly with Joe.

00:20:12.000 I think Joe does a great job during his interviews.

00:20:14.000 And there was a clip from this interview that went particularly viral.

00:20:18.000 This is a clip in which Tucker Carlson calls the United States evil for having dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, ending World War II, and then suggests that anyone who would justify that is also evil.

00:20:32.000 Which is a very traditionally left-wing perspective.

00:20:36.000 It is not traditionally a particularly right-wing perspective, because most people on the conservative side of the aisle tend to believe that America is a force for good in the world, and as we'll discuss, it turns out that dropping the atomic bomb on Japan was necessary for ending World War II, and likely saved millions of lives, both American and Japanese.

00:20:51.000 But here is Tucker.

00:20:53.000 Well, you could say the same about the atomic bomb, right?

00:20:56.000 Yes, you could.

00:20:57.000 And you could say that we have to develop it like Oppenheimer felt before the Nazis did.

00:21:03.000 I love that!

00:21:04.000 How'd that work?

00:21:08.000 I love, by the way, that people on my side, I'll just say, I'll just admit it, on the right, have spent the last 80 years defending dropping nuclear weapons on civilians. 0.53

00:21:20.000 Are you joking?

00:21:21.000 Right.

00:21:22.000 That's just like prima facie evil.

00:21:24.000 If you can't... Well, if we hadn't done that, then this, that, the other thing, that was actually a great savings.

00:21:29.000 No, it's wrong to drop nuclear weapons on people.

00:21:32.000 And if you find yourself arguing that it's a good thing to drop nuclear weapons on people, then you are evil.

00:21:37.000 It's not a tough one, right?

00:21:38.000 Is that a hard call for you?

00:21:39.000 It's not a hard call for me.

00:21:41.000 So with that in mind, why would you want nuclear weapons?

00:21:45.000 It's just a mindless, childish, intellectual exercise to justify, like, oh no, it's really good because someone else will get it.

00:21:51.000 How about no?

00:21:52.000 How about spending all of your effort to prevent this from happening?

00:21:57.000 Okay, actually, what would be childish is to assume that there are no other players in the world, for example, trying to develop nuclear weapons.

00:22:03.000 The fact is, the Nazis were trying to develop nuclear weapons. 0.59

00:22:06.000 There was, in fact, a nuclear arms race that was happening at the time. 1.00

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00:23:07.000 Not only that, as it turns out, the Soviet Union then developed nuclear weapons.

00:23:11.000 And it is mutually assured destruction and nuclear deterrence that has kept the world largely from sinking into another World War III-like mass casualty morass because of the horror of dropping the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the first place.

00:23:24.000 By the way, when he says things like, How exactly would you justify?

00:23:29.000 Why are we talking about how many lives it would save?

00:23:30.000 It's just wrong to drop the bomb?

00:23:31.000 Well, no, actually.

00:23:33.000 If you end up saving more lives than are cost by the dropping of the atomic bomb, then it is morally justified to drop the atomic bomb.

00:23:40.000 And that happens to be the reality of the situation.

00:23:43.000 Evan Thomas wrote in the Washington Post fairly recently that commanders of the Japanese Armed Forces were fanatics.

00:23:48.000 On August 9th, after Washington dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki, Japan's War Minister, General Korichika Anami, asked his fellow members of the Supreme War Council, quote, would not it be wondrous for the whole nation to be destroyed like a beautiful flower?

00:24:01.000 The rulers were fatalistic about taking the rest of the nation with them.

00:24:04.000 The 1 million will die for the Emperor was a common headline in the state-controlled press.

00:24:07.000 Even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been destroyed, and after the Russians had even invaded Japanese-occupied Manchuria, six members of the Supreme War Council deadlocked 3-to-3 on whether to surrender.

00:24:18.000 After the dropping of the second bomb, When Emperor Hirohito decided that he wanted to end the debate and surrender, he had to run away from members of his own military who were threatening to kidnap him and were trying to find the recording of him surrendering before it could be broadcast on radio to destroy the recording.

00:24:36.000 So yes, it turns out that it was necessary.

00:24:38.000 By the way, if we had not dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, The alternative was either an amphibious assault that would have cost probably a million American lives, or, more likely, a giant blockade of the island of Japan, including the mass starvation of the civilian population, which would have resulted in millions of dead Japanese. 0.67

00:24:58.000 So why is Tucker just abandoning the moral equation here at all?

00:25:05.000 What is he doing here?

00:25:06.000 That's what's sort of fascinating.

00:25:07.000 Now, I think to understand what Tucker's doing here, you have to understand that this particular interview included a lot of conspiratorial thinking.

00:25:14.000 So he tries to explain it.

00:25:15.000 He says that he was actually radicalized by 2017.

00:25:18.000 That basically, until 2017, he believed a lot of narratives that were told by the government and by the mainstream media.

00:25:23.000 And then, after 2016-2017, when it appeared that the intelligence community was militarized against Donald Trump, this is what radicalized him into basically becoming uber-critical of everything.

00:25:34.000 This is his story.

00:25:37.000 Probably unlike you, I didn't have any opinions like that.

00:25:40.000 I was like, fluoride, come on. 1.00

00:25:43.000 UFOs, you're f***ing crazy. 0.99

00:25:45.000 You know what I mean? 0.99

00:25:45.000 I just like, I had this reflex. 0.99

00:25:47.000 I'm ashamed of it.

00:25:47.000 I'm not bragging about it.

00:25:49.000 But it was 2017 and really it was the Trump campaign.

00:25:53.000 It wasn't that I was like so in love with Trump, though I've always liked Trump because he was hilarious and charming and all that.

00:25:59.000 But I wasn't like a Trumper or anything.

00:26:03.000 But it was watching that campaign And particularly his claim that they were spying on him.

00:26:09.000 And I was like, really?

00:26:11.000 The intel services and federal law enforcement, FBI, do not spy on presidential campaigns.

00:26:16.000 Like, that's so out of the realm.

00:26:18.000 That's so crazy.

00:26:20.000 Like, that could never happen because, of course, there's no democracy in a system like that.

00:26:24.000 And fundamentally, we're a democracy, an imperfect one.

00:26:26.000 It kind of lumbers along, you know, but like, it's not fake.

00:26:31.000 And then that turned out to be true.

00:26:33.000 And I knew it was true. 0.89

00:26:35.000 And that just blew my mind. So I began a process still ongoing of reassessing a lot of other

00:26:40.000 things like, okay, well, if that was not true, what else is not true? And what else

00:26:45.000 that they told me was a conspiracy theory might actually have some basis in fact.

00:26:49.000 Okay, so in other words, he went all the way from, I believe all the narratives to,

00:26:55.000 I believe none of the narratives.

00:26:57.000 In fact, I believe the counter of the set of facts with which I am presented.

00:27:01.000 Now, first of all, let me just say about 2016-2017.

00:27:04.000 Yes, it is incredibly disturbing that the intelligence community was militarized against Donald Trump on the basis of a bunch of trumped-up nonsense from the Hillary Clinton campaign.

00:27:11.000 Also, if this exploded your worldview as a conservative, That I find, honestly, I find that surprising.

00:27:17.000 Because as a conservative, you're supposed to be generally skeptical of government power.

00:27:22.000 And not only that, if you know anything about presidential history, you know that a wide variety of presidential campaigns have been spied on by the administration in power.

00:27:30.000 In 1940, for example, the Wendell Willkie campaign was pretty clearly spied on by the FBI at the behest of FDR.

00:27:37.000 In 1964, LBJ literally bugged Barry Goldwater's headquarters in 1964.

00:27:42.000 Famously, in 1972, the Richard Nixon campaign spied on the campaign of George McGovern, right?

00:27:48.000 That's what Watergate was all about.

00:27:50.000 So, actually, there's a fairly well-predicated history of the instruments of law enforcement being misused, which is why there's been a hot debate about the utility of various law enforcement agencies.

00:28:02.000 On the right, this has been going on literally my entire lifetime and well before.

00:28:06.000 Okay, but according to Tucker, that radicalized him, and now he went from supposedly believing everything to believing the reverse of everything.

00:28:12.000 Now, that is actually not critical thinking.

00:28:15.000 That's actually not critical thinking.

00:28:17.000 If what you said is, I took in everything too much, too easily without examining the evidence, and so now I'm gonna take a stronger look at the evidence before I come to a conclusion, that would be critical thinking.

00:28:26.000 But saying that the evidence that is presented to you Is now of no consequence whatsoever.

00:28:34.000 That no evidence provided is sufficient.

00:28:36.000 Because the source cannot be trusted.

00:28:37.000 That they are lying to you.

00:28:38.000 That they're always lying to you.

00:28:39.000 Always.

00:28:41.000 And that no counter evidence is necessary to support your new thesis.

00:28:44.000 Because again, they're lying to you and they've hidden all the evidence.

00:28:47.000 We are now in the world of the unfalsifiable.

00:28:49.000 Any evidence against your new thesis is discounted by the fact that it's coming from a source that lies to you.

00:28:56.000 And no evidence for your thesis is available.

00:28:57.000 Why?

00:28:58.000 Because they hid it and they are lying to you.

00:28:59.000 We'll get to more on this in a moment.

00:29:01.000 First, the people of Israel are under attack once again.

00:29:03.000 The Islamic Republic of Iran recently launched a wave of suicide drones followed by ballistic and cruise missiles at Israel.

00:29:09.000 The situation in northern Israel has been tense and deadly for months.

00:29:12.000 The region has been subjected to repeated rocket attacks from Iran-backed Hezbollah terrorists operating out of Lebanon.

00:29:18.000 Now the situation is coming to a head.

00:29:19.000 Israel needs your prayers and your support now more than ever.

00:29:22.000 The entry of Iran into the war is a very serious development. 0.92

00:29:24.000 It means Israel could be fighting Hamas terrorists in the south, Iran-backed Hezbollah in the north, and Iran itself, which has a military capability beyond either Hamas or Hezbollah.

00:29:32.000 The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews has been responding to Israel's emergency needs during the war by supplying protective gear for first responders, emergency supply kits, bomb shelters, reinforced ambulances, and other critical needs in northern Israel.

00:29:44.000 They're on the ground right now.

00:29:45.000 Preparing to protect civilian populations with mobile bomb shelters, food, and other basic necessities.

00:29:49.000 Please, I'm urging you, give as generously as you can.

00:29:52.000 Israel needs your help.

00:29:53.000 To give to the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, visit benforthefellowship.org.

00:29:58.000 That's benforthefellowship.org.

00:30:00.000 God bless and thank you.

00:30:01.000 So then it comes down to, what is the thesis that Tucker is using?

00:30:04.000 What is the narrative that Tucker is backing?

00:30:07.000 Well, as he says, he's using the thesis that every single power that exists in the United States is lying to you.

00:30:12.000 About everything.

00:30:12.000 Down to the most basic morality of Americanism.

00:30:15.000 Things like, was America right to involve itself in World War II?

00:30:18.000 Was America right to drop a nuclear weapon on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to end the war?

00:30:23.000 Now listen.

00:30:24.000 As always, when Tucker talks, there's a grain of truth to much of what Tucker says.

00:30:30.000 There's truth, a lot of truth to the idea that a lot of our powerful institutions have been corrupted and that people inside those institutions have used that power in order to lie and change the narrative.

00:30:40.000 But there is a difference, again, between healthy skepticism, a demand for evidence.

00:30:44.000 That's what skepticism is.

00:30:46.000 Being critical, being a critical thinker is a demand for evidence.

00:30:50.000 That is not the same thing as just asking questions.

00:30:52.000 Just asking questions means the search for answers is totally worthless, and all the answers are deemed insufficient anyway.

00:30:59.000 When you start thinking that being a critical thinker is just the asking of the questions rather than critically evaluating evidence and claims and counterclaims, that's wrong.

00:31:08.000 If you're the kind of person who just asks questions, that's actually childish.

00:31:13.000 Because the goal in life is to seek the answers, not just to ask the questions.

00:31:18.000 A critical thinker might look at the evidence being presented and might evaluate it one way or another and sift through the data.

00:31:25.000 A quote-unquote, just asking questions is not the end of the story.

00:31:29.000 Because if it's the end of the story, then the kinds of questions you're asking is in fact the narrative that you're seeking to promulgate.

00:31:34.000 So what exactly is Tucker's narrative?

00:31:36.000 Well, his narrative is that there's something deeply wrong in the soul of America.

00:31:40.000 And what's more, there's been something wrong with the soul of America for generations.

00:31:43.000 Now, again, a lot of conservatives do believe there's something wrong with the soul of the country.

00:31:48.000 I believe, for example, there's been something wrong with the soul of the country since, for example, the sexual revolution of the 1960s, which undermined marriage, since the decline of religion in the United States, particularly in mainline Protestant churches, but across the spectrum.

00:32:02.000 And that's been going on for generations.

00:32:03.000 And more people need to go back to church.

00:32:05.000 That we do have a soul sickness in this country.

00:32:08.000 And that's largely mirrored the declining religiosity of the American population.

00:32:13.000 But Tucker doesn't just go that far.

00:32:15.000 He thinks that it goes deeper.

00:32:18.000 Tucker has another critique.

00:32:19.000 America— Tucker literally says this, okay?

00:32:21.000 So I'm not attributing to Tucker a view he doesn't hold.

00:32:24.000 And if I am, I'm happy for him to correct me.

00:32:26.000 We've invited him on the show multiple times.

00:32:28.000 Tucker has another critique.

00:32:29.000 America lost its moral credibility during World War II.

00:32:31.000 Now again, this is the same argument that he makes with Joe that everybody is now latching onto, but he made this argument months ago when he was on with Russell Brand.

00:32:39.000 And I do think there are war crimes that the United States committed during the Second World War, the firebombing of Tokyo, famously Dresden, that were collective punishment.

00:32:48.000 And I would also say, by the way, the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that's collective punishment. 0.66

00:32:54.000 And I think that rotted the soul of the West.

00:32:57.000 I do.

00:32:57.000 I think that's so immoral that it did two things.

00:33:01.000 One, you know, you carry the burden of sin at scale like that.

00:33:05.000 You just do.

00:33:05.000 You can't help it.

00:33:07.000 And two, that level of power in the hands of human beings convinced them that they were gods.

00:33:12.000 Yes, it's curious because you would hear a comparable argument offered for slavery, for example, that this burden is borne by American culture.

00:33:22.000 And yet I've never heard anyone advance it around the acts of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

00:33:28.000 I wanted to... We dropped atomic weapons on civilian populations. 0.82

00:33:31.000 I'm not endorsing Imperial Japan.

00:33:34.000 Yes.

00:33:35.000 And it was an imperial power in the worst sense. 0.96

00:33:38.000 Horrible, horrible, horrible government.

00:33:42.000 However, you can't annihilate a civilian population and call yourself the good guy. 0.98

00:33:47.000 I don't care.

00:33:48.000 I love America.

00:33:49.000 I will defend America almost under any circumstances.

00:33:51.000 You can't defend that.

00:33:53.000 Well, I mean, at this point, I kind of want to know which circumstances, because I feel like the defense of America Especially on the foreign policy sphere, just for Tucker, does not exist, particularly a lot.

00:34:06.000 Again, I have the same views as Tucker does when it comes to closing the southern border.

00:34:09.000 I have many of the same views that Tucker does about the decreasing religiosity of the West.

00:34:14.000 In fact, I think I've been saying it longer than Tucker has probably.

00:34:17.000 But what's weird here is that when Tucker is criticizing the United States as embodying some sort of original sin that sprang from World War II, is that Tucker actually doesn't believe this about foreign leaders killing people.

00:34:28.000 We'll get to more on this in just a moment.

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00:35:29.000 So when it comes to the moral calculus of leaders killing people, that's the realm of normal politics.

00:35:34.000 So for example, he will downplay Vladimir Putin's evil In killing his political opponents and invading sovereign countries and killing civilian populations in those sovereign countries by basically saying all leaders kill people.

00:35:47.000 When it comes to ending World War II by dropping the bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which did bring an end to the war, that is a moral stain, a moral blight that America simply has been corrupted by.

00:35:57.000 So here he was talking about Vladimir Putin killing people.

00:35:59.000 Again, this is just a couple of months ago.

00:36:02.000 You should challenge some ideas.

00:36:04.000 For instance, you didn't talk about freedom of speech in Russia.

00:36:12.000 You did not talk about Navalny, about assassinations, about the restrictions on opposition in the coming elections.

00:36:22.000 Elections.

00:36:23.000 I didn't talk about the things that every other American media outlet talks about.

00:36:26.000 Why?

00:36:27.000 Because those are covered and because I have spent my life talking to people who run countries in various countries and have concluded the following.

00:36:35.000 That every leader kills people.

00:36:37.000 Including my leader. 0.99

00:36:38.000 Every leader kills people. 0.98

00:36:38.000 Some kill more than others. 0.98

00:36:39.000 Leadership requires killing people. 0.99

00:36:41.000 Sorry. 0.89

00:36:41.000 That's why I wouldn't want to be a leader. 0.89

00:36:44.000 That's very blasé about leaders killing people, but when it comes to ending World War II, then all of a sudden the United States bears the stain of a giant blood guilt that can never be alleviated.

00:36:54.000 Or if it can be, he's not really spelled out.

00:36:55.000 So this isn't actually America first, ironically.

00:36:57.000 This is actually kind of fascinating.

00:36:59.000 It's something else.

00:37:00.000 So the America First Movement, which is the isolationist movement that was very well-trafficked and very popular in 1939-1940 before it took a late turn into overt anti-Semitism, it actually had a lot of prominent Americans early on because in 1939-1940 it was very unclear whether the United States needed to get involved in the war.

00:37:17.000 The case that was being made by interventionists was that Britain was about to fall.

00:37:20.000 If Britain fell, then Germany would dominate the entire continent of Europe. 0.71

00:37:24.000 And then it could take its time.

00:37:25.000 It could build up its naval resources.

00:37:27.000 It would take control, for example, of the British Navy.

00:37:28.000 And then it could threaten the United States.

00:37:30.000 That was the case interventionists were making.

00:37:32.000 Isolationists were saying, we are very far away from Europe.

00:37:34.000 There is no reason for us to be involved.

00:37:35.000 Remember the last time we got involved, a lot of Americans died.

00:37:38.000 Many prominent Americans were members very early on of the America First movement, including, for example, JFK and Gerald Ford when they were young men.

00:37:45.000 Charles Lindbergh, who's most associated with America First, was not formally associated with America First until about 1941.

00:37:51.000 That's when he formally joined the America First movement.

00:37:53.000 But there's something that should be said here about American isolationists prior to World War II.

00:37:59.000 Those American isolationists, generally, their worry was not that America's involvement would be bad for the world.

00:38:05.000 Their worry was that Europe's wars would harm America, that America was a pristine place we needed to build up at home, that America had to focus in on itself and keeping itself pristine from the old world politics.

00:38:16.000 We didn't want to get involved in the balance of power jousting that happened in Europe all the time.

00:38:21.000 Instead, we needed to keep ourselves safe because America is better, not because America is worse.

00:38:25.000 But Tucker is saying something else.

00:38:27.000 He's saying that America is and has historically been a nefarious force.

00:38:32.000 In foreign policy, which is actually a left-wing argument from the 1960s, that America bears blood guilt.

00:38:39.000 In fact, it sounds a lot more like radical protesters on today's college campuses than like a traditional conservative.

00:38:43.000 You hear that when Russell Brand says to him, it sounds like what you are saying about Hiroshima and Nagasaki is what the left is saying about the history of race in the United States, that America bears blood guilt, that America is in its essence guilty and corrupt and sinful.

00:38:57.000 That's a very strange perspective, and it's not traditionally conservative.

00:39:00.000 Again, you can believe it, but it's not traditionally conservative.

00:39:04.000 Tucker's narrative does have one important utility.

00:39:07.000 It makes him the go-to source for everything.

00:39:09.000 So to get back to his just asking questions, in this unfalsifiable world, where you can't trust anything, you can't believe what you see, you can't believe evidence provided because everybody's lying to you, and counter evidence is unnecessary because they hid all of it, this means the only person you can trust is the person who promulgates the reverse of any traditional narrative you've been hearing in America.

00:39:30.000 It's a pure reaction against whatever is the story of the day.

00:39:33.000 Whether it's true or whether it's false is irrelevant.

00:39:34.000 It's just whatever is the story has to be false because I don't like the people who are telling the story.

00:39:39.000 So they're hiding 9-11, and America's evil Hiroshima, and Alex Jones is just as solid an informational source as anyone else, which is, Tucker actually suggested he was prophetic on Joe Rogan's show.

00:39:50.000 All our members of Congress, again, something that Tucker said on the show, every single one, effectively, are subject to blackmail by the intelligence agencies.

00:39:59.000 According to Tucker, you have to believe Tucker.

00:40:01.000 And if you don't, it's probably because you're part of the conspiracy or the cover-up.

00:40:05.000 Because you're owned.

00:40:06.000 Because you become the establishment. 0.90

00:40:07.000 Because you're weak.

00:40:09.000 And you can be taken over by nefarious forces.

00:40:12.000 The only man of courage in this routine is apparently the truth seeker, Tucker, who asks questions but doesn't actually examine the evidence on these particular issues.

00:40:20.000 Because why do you need to know things when you can just ask questions?

00:40:23.000 And what's the point of trying to find things out when all the sources are themselves corrupted?

00:40:29.000 Now once upon a time, there was a young man who set fire to this exact narrative.

00:40:32.000 His name was Tucker Carlson.

00:40:35.000 Here he was discussing another isolationist politician with an attraction to some rather ugly conspiracies and some questions about World War II.

00:40:42.000 Well, I mean, I think everyone would agree with America First in lower case.

00:40:46.000 I mean, the idea that we're all Americans here and American interests are paramount, at least to Americans.

00:40:52.000 But I think it's America First in capitals, the America First movement of the 30s and 40s that Buchanan's comments remind a lot of people of, and that's what people find creepy.

00:41:04.000 I mean, I think that, you know, the sovereignty of the American military, etc.

00:41:07.000 I mean, these are not just crank issues.

00:41:10.000 But unfortunately, Pat Buchanan raises them in a way that I think is discredited.

00:41:15.000 When it's hacked, he can always fall back on the line, well, the tiny cabal that controls American politics doesn't like me because I speak truth to power.

00:41:24.000 This is actually, incidentally, almost verbatim what he said the other day, that I offend the plutocracy, that I'm a wanted man by the inside, the Beltway people, and in every sense cast himself As a victim who is sort of a Karen Silkwood of politics.

00:41:41.000 Someone who's so truthful that he's being hunted down by the conspiracy that runs Washington.

00:41:48.000 I mean, it's all a bit much.

00:41:50.000 Maybe Pat Buchanan just says things that are kind of kooky.

00:41:52.000 And that's why he's being criticized.

00:41:55.000 Tucker Carlson might want to take a note from Tucker Carlson.

00:41:58.000 Alrighty guys, the rest of the show continues right now.

00:41:59.000 We will be joined on the line by award-winning scholar, professor, author, and combat veteran John Spencer.

00:42:04.000 If you're not a member, become a member.

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The Ben Shapiro Show - April 22, 2024

Congress Passes MASSIVE Aid Package For Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan

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