Dennis Prager is the author of The Rational Bible, The Book of Exodus, and a Bible Commentary. He's also the co-host of the conservative radio show, The Weekly Standard, and hosts the podcast, "The Weekly Standard with Dennis Prager," and is a frequent guest host on the show. In this special, he joins us to talk about what it means to be a Christian in the 21st century, and why he thinks the Bible should be read aloud to every child in every home. He also talks about why he writes a Bible commentary and why it's the best book he ever wrote, and how he thinks we should all read the Bible more often. And he explains why the Bible is so important to him and why we should read it to all of our kids every night, even if it's not the most popular book in the world. Join the conversation by using the hashtag , and find us on social media using and in the comments section below. Thanks to our sponsor ZipRecruiter for sponsoring this special Sunday Special! Want to sponsor the show? Zip Recruiter is the smartest way to hire, fast, fast and smart employees? Check out their website here! Check them out! Thanks also for sponsoring the show, Ben Shapiro's Sunday Special: Ben Shapiro is a Christian, secular, conservative, Christian, feminist, and feminist, who writes about the Bible, and believes in God's existence, and wants to know what God is really thinks about it. The Bible is a tool to help us understand the Bible. . Thank you to Ben Shapiro for joining us on The Daily Wire for helping us bring God's word into the world, and we hope you enjoy this Sunday Special. Ben Prager, the writer, the author, the reader, the listener, the pastor, the preacher, the story, and so much more. Ben Shapiro, the host, the guy who does it all, the Bible does it so much better than anyone else does it better than we can do it better. Thank you for listening to us, and he's a Godly, and thanks for coming on the Sunday Special with us in this special with his wisdom, thanks for tuning in, and thank you for being kind and caring about us all of that, and for supporting us with his words of wisdom and good vibes, and good company, and all of his support.
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00:01:35.000Dennis Prager and his godly views on the set today.
00:01:38.000Dennis, obviously, if you haven't been watching the news, you haven't followed the Amazon charts, is the author of the bestseller, The Rational Bible, The Book of Exodus.
00:01:45.000We're going to go ahead and do all five volumes of the Old Testament, the books of Moses, and he's done Exodus.
00:01:53.000It was number one in the non-fiction list on Amazon.com, which has to be really gratifying since you've written a bunch of bestselling books, but this one is actually a Bible commentary.
00:03:10.000I've asked callers on 33 years of radio, said, I'd like to know, if it's not the Bible, just name a book that is the source of wisdom for you.
00:03:39.000And making it rational, verse by verse, has been my life's task.
00:03:44.000I know the Hebrew real well, as you do.
00:03:47.000And you know, there are wonderful commentaries by people who don't know Hebrew.
00:03:54.000But I think to really do it right, you have to know the Hebrew.
00:03:58.000So let's start from the very beginning of the basis for the rational Bible, because I think that you can make a really solid argument that the ethics that the Bible promotes, the ethical monotheism that you promote, that this is based on a certain level of human rationality.
00:04:11.000In a little while, I want to talk about human rationality versus God's rationality.
00:04:14.000We'll do the rip-throw problem, which stands above which.
00:04:19.000So, when you say that the Bible is rational, do you mean that Revelation itself can be rationalized?
00:04:23.000That it is rational that a voice came down from the top of a mountain and then proceeded to give a bunch of laws to a dude who's standing at the top of a mountain?
00:05:30.000I believe there's a leap of faith to God is good.
00:05:32.000But once you've made that leap that God is good, which I think is somewhat rational, after all, why would a bad Creator make a person capable of being good?
00:06:07.000And if so, why do we need God in the first place if we're just
00:06:10.000I think there's a mixture of God's standards and our standards, otherwise we can't understand anything.
00:06:15.000If it's purely divine, then we can't understand it.
00:06:18.000When Abraham, the first monotheist, the first Jew, argues with God, which, by the way, is one of the reasons I'm in love with these first five books, what is called the Torah.
00:06:30.000I'm in love with those books ever since I was a kid.
00:06:32.000And I'm not the most traditional guy, but that I fell in love with.
00:06:36.000And I love the idea that you can argue with God.
00:06:39.000I tell Christians all the time, and that's largely of a huge Christian audience, and I'm a Jew, and I explain, don't forget, Israel, God's people, has a meaning.
00:06:53.000It means argue with or struggle with God.
00:06:56.000And a lot of Christians forgot that, and a lot, you know, and secularists don't even know that.
00:07:02.000There's something beautiful about that.
00:07:04.000Let me, can I tell you a quick anecdote?
00:07:06.000A Muslim woman called my radio show many years ago, when I was just on in L.A., and she said, Dennis, I know you, we could ask you anything.
00:07:14.000I said, that's right, well I'm a Muslim woman and I'd like to know why aren't you a Muslim?
00:07:18.000And I told her, I want you to know I am complimented by the fact that you would even ask.
00:07:23.000It means you think I've given this serious thought, and I have.
00:07:52.000So the fact that we can argue with God means that we can perceive God's morality.
00:08:00.000So when I say God is good, it is both in His terms and, I believe, our terms.
00:08:05.000So when it comes to that standard of good,
00:08:08.000There are two main sources in Western civilization for the standard of good.
00:08:12.000One is the Bible, the Judeo-Christian tradition, and the other is this idea of natural law that you see reflected a lot in the founding philosophy.
00:08:19.000It's reflected as well in Thomistic thought, this idea that you can look at the universe and you can discern from the universe that there are certain things that are true and certain things that are false.
00:08:28.000So, for example, you're an advocate for traditional marriage, and the natural law view of marriage would be exactly this, that God created man and woman to be together, and the proof of this is that they are capable of producing children.
00:08:37.000So, when we're trying to discern the good, do we need revelation, or can natural law alone suffice, or are they mirrors of one another, or is natural law itself irrelevant?
00:09:00.000I'm more concerned with the pragmatic, because that's how we live, we practice, we live.
00:09:06.000But look, clearly, if we needed revelation from the beginning, God would have revealed the Torah, as it were, or the Ten Commandments to Adam and Eve.
00:09:16.000So clearly, God believes it's possible to be good without his direct revelation.
00:09:21.000Otherwise, it's not fair to have blamed Kain for killing Abel.
00:09:40.000And so I always say the Ten Commandments are God's third attempt
00:09:46.000At trying to get us to be good people, and choosing a people to embody holiness and goodness, which is what is known as Israelite and then ultimately Jewish.
00:10:31.000From the day I left my parents' home at 21 till they died, my father at 96, my mother at 89, I called them every single week.
00:10:40.000It didn't matter where I was on earth.
00:10:43.000And the reason was one, because I believed God instructed me, honor your father and mother.
00:10:51.000And when I tell people who say, oh, I don't need God to be good, really?
00:10:56.000Then how come so many adult kids who are angry at their parents don't call them every week?
00:11:02.000Believe me, we can all use a commander in heaven to tell us what to do.
00:11:07.000So when it comes to that, back to the philosophical question for one second, so to play skeptic since you're the rational Bible guy, so what took God so long?
00:12:07.000She is as light as the sun in personality, but her view of... You wouldn't have called that one.
00:12:14.000No, you wouldn't have called that one, exactly.
00:12:17.000So, with all of that said, for a lot of folks who read the Bible and they don't know a lot about the Bible, and maybe their first experience with reading the Bible is going to be reading your book, when you read the text of the Bible, there's a lot in there that unquestionably is brutal, and it seems to our modern sensibilities
00:14:23.000And I'm using the word Torah because this is about the first five books.
00:14:27.000But my commentary is for people of every faith and no faith.
00:14:30.000But there is a realization that you can't ban all bad immediately.
00:14:37.000Maybe the Torah wanted us to be vegetarian, so a hundred years from now, when I think most people will be vegetarian, people will sit like a Sam Harris and say, well, why didn't it ban meat eating?
00:14:54.000Because you can make the world better much more so through evolution than revolution.
00:15:00.000Okay, so in just a second I want to ask you about the religious objections to applying rationality to the Bible, because so far we've dealt with sort of the rationalist objections to the Bible itself, and then I want to come at it from the right as opposed to from the left.
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00:16:26.000So, let's talk about the, the sort of skepticism of applying reason to the Bible from the right.
00:16:32.000So, so far we've talked about, you know, people on, on sort of the secular left, uh, or just secularism in general, who would be skeptical about the Bible itself.
00:16:40.000There are a lot of folks in the religious community, the community I grew up in, the community you grew up in, who would say that attempts to apply rationality to the mitzvot, to the commandments of the Torah, is actually counterproductive.
00:16:52.000Because now you're placing man above God, and what you are doing is infusing a need, you're implying that God needs man in a way that is not true.
00:16:59.000That God gives a certain level of commandment, and now we're trying to reason around it, but as soon as we start using our reason, reason also is a universal acid to a certain extent.
00:17:29.000What rules of reason ought we apply that will prevent the destruction of the rules themselves?
00:17:35.000Because if you think that the mitzvot are important, if you think the commandments are important, then either, you know, which ones do we have to keep, which ones don't we have to keep?
00:17:41.000Well, first of all, let me explain on a personal note.
00:19:03.000So let me give you a really good example.
00:19:05.000There is a law in the Torah that says if you have a particularly unruly child, a terrible son, you take him to the court, and if they find him guilty, they stone him to death.
00:19:20.000And people use that as a great example of how primitive the Bible is, or the Torah specifically.
00:19:26.000I used reason to realize, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
00:20:19.000You suggest that let's use the one you just used, just to take the counterpoint.
00:20:24.000So your argument is that this is a movement away from parents being able to kill their children willy-nilly, and so you have a court process that's put in place specifically to prevent all of this.
00:20:32.000So the goal of the commandment is to prevent the fulfillment of the commandment to a certain extent.
00:20:35.000So now take the commandment with regard to the one that's popular today, with regard to homosexuality, for example.
00:20:41.000How do we know that that wasn't just a progressive attempt to move away from something worse, but the really progressive thing would be to say that what it's really talking about is we're moving toward monogamy for male couples or female couples, which is the way that some people in sort of liberal congregations try to reinterpret that phrase.
00:20:59.000In other words, where does reason stop?
00:21:01.000And we say, OK, we've gone far enough.
00:21:02.000And where do we say, OK, well, this commandment was written for the time and it was determined to drag people out of a certain level of primitivism.
00:21:09.000And now we can drag them even further out of that level of primitivism.
00:21:13.000I am... That's in the third book of the Bible, Leviticus.
00:22:05.000Ancient China, ancient Incas, ancient Egyptians, ancient Greeks, anywhere on earth.
00:22:13.000I read a book by a Harvard professor, and, you know, this is not my favorite reading, and it's not only because it's very involved, obviously, on ancient Chinese homosexuality.
00:22:25.000So this was the rule, like in ancient Greece.
00:22:27.000Women were for babies, boys were for fun.
00:23:20.000But the question is, at least from the Orthodox point of view or from a fundamentalist point of view, so how does Orthodoxy not slip into Reconstructionism or into reform?
00:23:30.000So which laws do you get to abrogate and which laws do you not get to abrogate?
00:25:40.000But in the Torah itself, only on the Sabbath, because the Holy Days, Passover, Tabernacles, and Pentecost, Shavuot, Sukkot, and Pesach, do not represent creation.
00:25:59.000But, yes, I admit that there are laws that, you know, I believe that a dish that has been put in boiling water has effectively gotten rid of its prior foods and can be eaten from.
00:26:17.000But, you know, look, I know that the Orthodox, within Jewry, the Orthodox are my allies.
00:29:03.000And Franklin did not believe we could have a good society without God.
00:29:07.000Franklin's autobiography, his theology—and I just read Thomas Kidd's book on Franklin's theology, just to make sure—is identical to mine.
00:29:23.000And Franklin is called so-called deist.
00:29:26.000Deist is not what people think deist means.
00:29:28.000Deist, most people think, is like Aristotle, the unmoved mover, a creator, and then the creator went to sleep or retired to another universe.
00:29:37.000They believed, they simply weren't orthodox, small o, in their Christianity.
00:29:43.000But they believed in providence, in a God who judges, and that God had a role in the founding of America.
00:29:50.000Okay, so I want to talk in a minute with you about death, because we've talked a lot about sort of the life-affirming qualities of rationality and the Torah.
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00:31:09.000Okay, so, Dennis, let's talk a little bit about the afterlife in the Bible, because you mentioned the idea of God judging and the notion that after we die, God basically decides whether we were good or bad.
00:31:23.000The Torah doesn't have a lot about the afterlife, actually.
00:31:25.000The five books of Moses are pretty vague on exactly what happens when you die.
00:31:28.000There are a few sort of vague references or allusions to it, the idea that
00:31:32.000You know, God kisses Moses and Moses goes somewhere, but you're not really sure where.
00:31:38.000And there's obviously, in various different theologies, whole worlds built up around what happens after we die.
00:31:45.000So, number one, what do you believe about what happens after we die?
00:31:49.000Number two, where does that come from in the Bible?
00:31:52.000And number three, do you actually need to believe in the afterlife in order to be good?
00:35:13.000Without belief in an afterlife, it would be so obvious to me that God was not good that I would disregard anything that I thought this God said.
00:35:22.000If I didn't believe in an afterlife, I'd be an atheist.
00:35:26.000Because if God is good, there's an afterlife.
00:36:03.000And there's a five-minute case just for the afterlife.
00:36:07.000But I fully admit it, and I know I'm mocked for this, I don't give a damn, but I'm mocked for it.
00:36:12.000A good part of my sanity rests on the belief that there is a just God, and if there is a just God, there's an afterlife.
00:36:21.000Okay, so let's talk about where the United States seemingly has gone wrong in all of this, because we've become a significantly less religious people.
00:36:28.000If you go back to the 1950s, the vast majority of Americans were going to church on a regular basis.
00:36:32.000If you look at the United States now, that's just not the case anymore.
00:36:37.000Religious numbers, particularly among people my age, have declined markedly.
00:36:43.000Why is it that religion seems to have lost its appeal?
00:36:46.000Maybe it's coming back, and we'll talk about that in a second.
00:36:48.000We'll talk about whether you're optimistic or pessimistic in a second.
00:36:50.000But what happened in the 1950s, 60s, 40s?
00:36:54.000Why exactly was it that this religious worldview that gave birth to the greatest country in the history of the world, people just decided to toss it overboard?
00:37:01.000Because the generation that's called the greatest generation, the World War II generation, which was a great generation, greatest or not, they were great, they made one horrible mistake.
00:37:13.000They didn't teach their kids what made America tick.
00:39:12.000There's no wisdom at Columbia because there's no God at Columbia.
00:39:16.000I got to believe in God thanks to the irrationality of secularism.
00:39:22.000So how do we restore any sort of biblical value?
00:39:25.000Is there a way to draw people back to it?
00:39:26.000I think there is a, you know, I've seen in my own life, I think there are people who are in search of something eternal and meaningful because they're looking around at the system being presented by
00:39:35.000What is left of our moral leadership and saying this is a shambles and they're looking for something that actually has some eternal value to it.
00:39:41.000Are you optimistic or pessimistic that's going to happen and how is the best way for religious leaders to have an impact in driving that?
00:39:47.000I'm not optimistic and I'm not pessimistic.
00:39:49.000I wish I could say I'm optimistic but there was a... I was in a major discussion, a dialogue years ago with a great Catholic thinker and a great Protestant thinker
00:42:38.000Because they didn't give PhDs in America, so in the late 19th century, scholars in America went to Germany, of all places, to get their PhDs.
00:42:48.000And there's a basic rule in life, Germany is always wrong.
00:42:52.000I'm sorry to say it because I have such close German friends.
00:43:15.000I, they, they get, so they, these are the, Bismarck gave us socialism, not Marx, and Marx was German too.
00:43:22.000But, but anyway, this, so these people get their PhDs in, in the socialist universe, this atheist universe of the German university, come back to America, and the rest is history.
00:43:35.000So let's talk a little bit about the modern political tenor.
00:43:40.000There are a lot of people who complain right now that morality and politics seem to be completely foreign to one another, and I have a lot of sympathies toward that position.
00:43:47.000Not in terms of the positions being espoused, because obviously you and I, I think, agree on 99.9% of all things political, but
00:43:54.000With regard to sort of the way the politics is being carried on, whether it's people accosting each other in restaurants and screaming at them, or whether it is some of the president's tweets.
00:44:04.000There's a feeling that morality has sort of gone by the wayside.
00:44:07.000How much of biblical values and morality is character, and how much of it is public policy when it comes to politics?
00:44:15.000Because this was a big argument, obviously, in 2016.
00:44:18.000It'll be a big argument again, I assume, in 2020.
00:45:40.000It's almost the Bible's and God's way of saying, listen, I could take these sexual sinners and I could use them for good.
00:45:48.000And I emphasize the word sexual sin because I think that a lot of religious people place too much emphasis on sexual sin beyond all the other areas of life.
00:46:00.000I think that's a problematic issue, worthy another hour one day, but it's a big deal.
00:46:10.000I care more about America than I care about the character of a president.
00:46:16.000Okay, so let me give you the counter-argument.
00:46:18.000So the counter-argument is not that the policy that the president espouses doesn't matter, because obviously I'm very happy with a lot of President Trump's policies.
00:46:24.000I think the country is winning because of a lot of President Trump's policies.
00:46:28.000But there are externalities to public character, meaning that, you're right, I don't care all that much about Donald Trump's peccadillos in the past because
00:46:35.000It doesn't affect the public discourse, I think, in any serious way.
00:46:38.000But when the president says things that are vile about people publicly, or when the president says that, you know, if people come to his protests and they make trouble, you know, punch them in the face or whatever it is.
00:46:50.000From a character perspective, not only does it create a problem, I think, for the country, it also creates a problem for a lot of Christians who are tempted to start saying King David instead of just saying, being Nathan.
00:47:03.000Like, it's tempting to play God in the King David story and say, right, he's King David, as opposed to, well, God gets to pick who King David is.
00:47:09.000It's our job to say, right, you're not allowed to take that guy's husband, that woman's husband, and send him out to the battlefield to get killed.
00:47:17.000I think that what's happened, one of the things that I think is driving apart the country is it's not a referendum on the president so much as it's a referendum on evangelical Christians and religious Jews and people who are overlooking, at least publicly,
00:47:30.000Some of the president's sins in order to maintain a level of, I think, emotional support.
00:47:36.000Because I think you can intellectually support what the president does on policy and still say, right, he's acting like a schmuck right here.
00:47:42.000And it's that gap that I think is really driving away young people, particularly with regard to President Trump.
00:47:47.000Well, I don't want them to be driven away.
00:47:49.000I mean, when you said we agree on 99.9%, this might be the point where we have a difference.
00:47:59.000I admire the religious community for sticking with Donald Trump.
00:48:04.000I have defended them in writing a great deal.
00:48:08.000Whether it's religious Christians or Jews.
00:48:11.000Because they understand what's at play here.
00:48:14.000The fate of the United States of America, the last, best hope of humanity, is at risk here.
00:48:19.000I'm not saying they shouldn't vote for him, mind you.
00:48:21.000I'm not saying they shouldn't even support him politically.
00:48:50.000I think there's a lot of people on the left who if they could get away with it would hurt, physically hurt people on the right.
00:48:57.000And more so than the other way around, as Alan Dershowitz, Hillary Clinton supporter, lifelong Democrat, lifelong liberal, said to me, and it is on video, in his apartment in Manhattan last year.
00:49:09.000He said, let me tell you something, as a Jew, as an American, as a liberal, I don't fear a handful of Nazis.
00:50:12.000Supreme Court-wise, values-wise, you name it, that was the brink for this country.
00:50:18.000So in light of that, a moronic tweet or an awful statement is very small
00:50:29.000The question is why does that always have to be contextualized?
00:50:31.000I mean, I can agree with virtually everything that you just said there, but the question that I have is that the next election, the biggest single voting bloc is going to be millennials, it's going to be younger people.
00:50:43.000And those people actually take his tweets seriously.
00:50:45.000They actually, when he does something that, when he says something, they find bile, that actually matters to them even more so than the policy in many cases.
00:50:53.000And what matters even more than that is, I think,
00:50:56.000So many people on the right who seem to refuse to acknowledge.
00:51:02.000I just don't see why you can't do both.
00:51:03.000I don't see why you can't say, his policies are great.
00:51:08.000Or it would be better if you would stop doing that.
00:51:10.000Or what he just said was garbage and be better off as a country if he hadn't done that.
00:51:13.000That doesn't mean I'm going to turn over the country to this bunch of nutjobs on the left.
00:51:17.000But you just contextualized it and that's great.
00:51:19.000If you put that in that concept, hey listen, I can't stand what he just said, but frankly the policies are saving the country.
00:51:26.000There isn't anybody who supports him who would differ with you.
00:51:29.000Right, the only problem is that by saying, the point of the contextualization, I'm making the contextualization to you and to the audience so I can make clear the position.
00:51:37.000The problem is that if, let's say he says something about Charlottesville.
00:51:41.000And it's something that I find distasteful.
00:51:43.000We may have a difference of understanding, and I have perused this a tremendous number of times.
00:51:48.000He didn't say there were good Nazis and... He said there were good people on both sides on the Friday night.
00:51:56.000The Friday night was a white supremacist party.
00:51:58.000Okay, do you think he was saying that there were good Nazis?
00:52:00.000Do you believe he believes there were good Nazis?
00:52:01.000I think he was saying there were good people who were marching, not good Nazis.
00:52:04.000I think what he was saying is that there were good people who were marching with the Nazis to the statue which I... Okay, so here's my tell-me-even proof that he didn't say that.
00:52:10.000Because he doesn't believe there's good Antifa.
00:52:13.000No, but I think the easy way for him to say things is there's good people on both sides.
00:52:16.000Right, but he doesn't believe there's any good Antifa.
00:52:19.000I'm not sure that he thinks things through to the extent necessary to actually... Okay.
00:52:23.000Whether he does or he doesn't... The point is not Charlottesville, and I'm happy to argue Charlottesville, and we can go back through the text and we'll bring out our Talmuds and we can actually look through the legislative history of what he said, but anything that he said that people find distasteful, particularly, or that you would find distasteful in any other context.
00:52:40.000Why can't we just say, that's distasteful?
00:53:07.000So, why can't we just say that, and then when it comes time for 2020, say, right, and the overall opinion is, I'll vote for him anyway, because that's that.
00:53:15.000But not every day is a referendum on the election.
00:53:18.000This I guess is my main point of criticism, because you and I are probably going to vote the same way in 2020, right?
00:53:24.000The chances are very good that I vote for President Trump in 2020.
00:53:31.000In 2020 there's a very high likelihood I'll vote for President Trump barring some sort of cataclysmic event.
00:53:36.000All of that said, I do think that there is something deeply important about conservatives pointing out when he does something wrong because otherwise we lose our intellectual credibility and look as though it is our job to become his lawyers as opposed to being advocates for a position for which he is the
00:53:52.000I understand that, and it makes sense.
00:53:55.000You and I both speak a great deal to young people.
00:53:58.000I through PragerU, and you through, of course, The Daily Wire, and all of your podcasts, and all of the things you do.
00:54:07.000I have a big following, you have a big following.
00:54:10.000I don't think they're thinking, gee, this Prager who talks about morality, he doesn't have that much credibility with me because he supports the president.
00:54:18.000Because people understand why I do, and I try to make it clear why I do.
00:54:37.000Remember, though, that there are people on our side who don't... There is one, I don't want to say his name, because I know him pretty well.
00:54:46.000And it'll be obvious if anybody wants to research it, but most people won't.
00:54:50.000Who said that, who's a lifelong Republican, and said Trump is worse than Stalin.
00:56:56.000I am, and I spend a vast amount of time in this, the book that's out, the first one on Exodus, explaining why they alone, they alone, in fact, do not steal alone, would make a good world.
00:57:09.000And I guess that's why I began with Exodus, because I'm in love with the Ten Commandments, including Honor Your Father and Mother, which changed my life.