The Ben Shapiro Show - July 30, 2026


Fauci's Pardon Might Not Save Him


Episode Stats


Length

18 minutes

Words per minute

178.65

Word count

3,314

Sentence count

212

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Toxicity

11

sentences flagged

Hate speech

4

sentences flagged


Transcript

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Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
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Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Well, folks, yesterday Anthony Fauci testified in front of the Senate, and it went really, really poorly.
00:00:05.000 The consequences for his mistakes, huge.
00:00:07.000 We're talking like lockdowns, people dying alone.
00:00:09.000 We're talking about people losing faith in science entirely.
00:00:13.000 The American people are really pissed at Fauci, and he deserves it.
00:00:16.000 Accountability is necessary.
00:00:18.000 But constitutional lawyers and Congress are trying to figure out what comes next.
00:00:21.000 I'll lay out all the options.
00:00:23.000 The real responsibility for Fauci's mistakes ought to lie with a scientific community that is totally unwilling to actually investigate its own flaws.
00:00:30.000 So before the hearing, Rand Paul tweeted out, if Anthony Fauci comes before my committee tomorrow and perjures himself, his preemptive pardon from Joe Biden will not protect him.
00:00:40.000 So that was him basically arguing that, again, Fauci received a pardon from Joe Biden on his way out that pardoned him for pretty much anything and all he did between 2014 and 2025.
00:00:53.000 And so Rand Paul is threatening if you come and you lie in front of Congress, then you could get targeted again.
00:01:00.000 Now, of course, back in 2021, Fauci testified before Congress that he had not lied before Congress.
00:01:05.000 It's about gain of function.
00:01:06.000 Research.
00:01:08.000 Again, gain of function research.
00:01:10.000 Fauci was trying to talk past Paul.
00:01:12.000 He was saying that he didn't do any gain of function research.
00:01:14.000 Paul was saying, well, you're misdefining gain of function research for political purposes.
00:01:18.000 But here's how that exchange sounded five years ago.
00:01:22.000 This is a pattern that Senator Paul has been doing now at multiple hearings based on no reality.
00:01:28.000 He keeps talking about gain of function.
00:01:30.000 This has been evaluated multiple times by qualified people to not fall under the gain of function definition.
00:01:39.000 I have not lied before Congress.
00:01:40.000 I have never lied, certainly not before Congress.
00:01:44.000 Case closed.
00:01:47.000 Okay, so that's what he said back in 2021.
00:01:49.000 Well, if you're not lying in front of Congress, you probably shouldn't be all that worried about, you know, a perjury charge.
00:01:55.000 But Fauci was very worried about that yesterday.
00:01:57.000 That is the reason why he declared the Fifth Amendment, why he invoked the Fifth Amendment against self incrimination, his right against self incrimination.
00:02:04.000 He started off with a one minute diatribe about how terrible Rand Paul and mean Rand Paul is.
00:02:11.000 Given Senator Paul's obvious obsession with calling for my prosecution, his repeated slanderous comments about me, and recently his publicly releasing my unredacted personal diary aimed at embarrassing and intimidating me,
00:02:34.000 the only conclusion I can reach is that the sole reason he is calling me before this committee.
00:02:43.000 It is to get me to say something, anything that could vindicate his repeated public pledges that I end up, in his words, quote, behind bars, unquote.
00:02:58.000 Any reasonable person who has followed his unhinged obsession with me would readily come to the same conclusion.
00:03:12.000 Okay, so he then proceeded to say that he would invoke the Fifth Amendment.
00:03:16.000 Some 111 times.
00:03:17.000 We'll get into the legal consequences of that in just one second because the open question is whether he, in fact, could be prosecuted for contempt of Congress.
00:03:25.000 Here was Fauci explaining that he would invoke the fifth.
00:03:30.000 Although it pains me to do so because of the respect I have for the legislative branch of government and my decades long record of cooperating with Congress under the advice of my attorneys. I will invoke my right under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution to refrain from answering your questions.
00:03:54.000 Thank you.
00:03:57.000 Okay, so then he proceeded to do it again 111 times.
00:03:59.000 Well, this did provide a lot of the Republican senators the opportunity to tee off on Fauci and get him to look foolish because when you just keep saying, I invoke the Fifth Amendment, it makes things awkward.
00:04:11.000 So he was questioned by Senator Bernie Moreno from Ohio.
00:04:15.000 He was asked about whether he would turn around and look at members of the media who had been shamed for telling the truth.
00:04:21.000 Of course, he wouldn't.
00:04:22.000 And that was not a thing he was going to do, obviously.
00:04:26.000 Can you do me a favor in the audience and stand up if during the time of the COVID pandemic you were called a racist for calling the virus a Wuhan virus or the China virus?
00:04:39.000 If you thought the six foot rule was total crap, if you thought the vaccine wasn't something that you should take, if you thought it was outrageous the way the mass policy was rolled out, if you were fired from your job for not taking that vaccine,
00:04:54.000 including members of the military, 0.99
00:04:56.000 If you thought closing schools was catastrophically stupid, and that you thought that during these times saying these things made you somehow a lesser human being, 0.98
00:05:12.000 Dr. Frederick, you just turn around and look at the people behind you. 0.99
00:05:18.000 You're not willing to do that?
00:05:21.000 That's not a question.
00:05:22.000 It's not a question to your lawyers, it's not a question.
00:05:24.000 It's a request.
00:05:28.000 All you have to do is look up from your lawyers.
00:05:31.000 And look at the people who were absolutely shamed for saying what we know now to be the truth.
00:05:39.000 You can't even look at them?
00:05:42.000 That's a question.
00:05:43.000 Are you able to look at them?
00:05:47.000 Okay, so obviously, again, whenever you have a witness who is pleading the fifth and refusing to sort of comply with the rules, that gives you the opportunity to humiliate them.
00:05:56.000 And Republicans dunked on them over and over, dunked on Fauci.
00:05:59.000 Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri.
00:06:01.000 He had some fun with Fauci by asking him basic questions like, What color is your tie?
00:06:05.000 Because here's the thing once Fauci starts answering questions, then it makes it harder for him to actually invoke the Fifth Amendment with regard to all other questions.
00:06:12.000 That's the reason why he did it in blanket fashion.
00:06:16.000 What day of the week is it today?
00:06:22.000 On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.
00:06:29.000 What color tie are you wearing?
00:06:32.000 On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.
00:06:39.000 What color is the carpet in front of you?
00:06:44.000 On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.
00:06:51.000 Let's just get one thing straight.
00:06:52.000 You don't have any rights under the Fifth Amendment because you've been pardoned, as you very well know.
00:06:56.000 As the Supreme Court has been clear for a century and more, Brown versus Walker, 1896, when he has been pardoned, he may not stand upon his privilege.
00:07:06.000 You know that.
00:07:07.000 Your lawyer is sitting behind you now, shifting nervously in their chairs.
00:07:10.000 They know it.
00:07:11.000 This isn't about the Constitution.
00:07:12.000 This isn't about the law.
00:07:13.000 This is about contempt.
00:07:15.000 Contempt for this body and contempt for the American people.
00:07:19.000 At one point, Senator Rand Paul decided to toss Fauci's lawyer out of the room.
00:07:23.000 Here's how that went.
00:07:25.000 The attorneys are not recognized.
00:07:28.000 In fact, the attorney was told not to sit at the table, and he's not obeying that recommendation.
00:07:32.000 There's a row behind you, sir.
00:07:34.000 That's where you were told to sit, and you're not.
00:07:36.000 And now you're disrupting the proceedings.
00:07:38.000 And so, look, this is the way Anthony Fauci wants to be remembered for a lawyer not listening to the rules.
00:07:44.000 That's the way you want to be remembered, and that's what you're going to do.
00:07:47.000 You are not recognized, sir.
00:07:51.000 Security, please remove him from the room.
00:07:58.000 All righty.
00:07:59.000 So, again, a lot of pyrotechnics.
00:08:01.000 Bernie Moreno went after Fauci, started berating him in front of the audience.
00:08:06.000 Again, all of this is good fun and games, and Fauci deserves pretty much everything coming his way.
00:08:10.000 The real question here is whether Fauci could actually face some contempt charges.
00:08:14.000 Here is Moreno going after him.
00:08:17.000 Those policies were put in place. 0.98
00:08:21.000 Because you had moronic politicians that listened to the words of a megalomaniac who was more interested in having met a Kardashian than the suffering of the American people. 0.99
00:08:35.000 And that is you. 1.00
00:08:38.000 Your advice to communities like that, to idiotic politicians who enforce those rules, arrested that mom for watching a football game with her own family. 1.00
00:08:54.000 Outside. 1.00
00:08:57.000 When that story broke, 0.95
00:09:00.000 I said to myself, I cannot stand Eileen on the side and watch this happen.
00:09:07.000 It was about six years ago today that I decided I'm going to give up my businesses, sell them all, run for office, run for the United States Senate.
00:09:17.000 Here I am sitting in front of you six years later saying, Who the f do you think you were for doing that?
00:09:24.000 Now, again, I sympathize.
00:09:25.000 With my friend and colleague Matt Wall, she says, like, you know, listen, it's all fun and games, but is anybody going to get prosecuted for this stuff?
00:09:31.000 And that really is the open question.
00:09:32.000 So, David Limbaugh, lawyer, brother of Rush, he actually went to Westlaw for the sourcing on this.
00:09:40.000 And here is what he writes Biden's preemptive pardon in January 2025 should cover any offenses that Fauci may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 1st, 2014 through the date of his pardon.
00:09:53.000 According to pretty well settled case law, acceptance of a pardon removes the basis for invoking the privilege against self incrimination.
00:10:00.000 The Fifth Amendment privilege does not survive for offenses that fall outside the pardon scope.
00:10:05.000 The Fifth Amendment has never protected a witness from perjury.
00:10:09.000 So it's a bizarre basis to claim that the Fifth Amendment is going to be invoked and you can invoke it to avoid a perjury charge.
00:10:16.000 Again, if you could do that, then that would mean that no one would ever have to testify for any reason because you can always be hit with a perjury charge for pretty much anything.
00:10:24.000 United States versus Posey, 2023, found that if a witness is questioned about conduct that falls outside a pardon's temporal or subject matter scope, Then the Fifth Amendment privilege remains fully available.
00:10:34.000 So theoretically, if they were questioning about something that was outside of the pardon, then he could theoretically invoke the Fifth Amendment, but they weren't.
00:10:41.000 They were asking about activities that were covered by the pardon.
00:10:46.000 Now, there are other lawyers who are claiming that Fauci could theoretically be hit with a contempt charge.
00:10:50.000 Now, what Fauci did here is he showed up in front of the committee.
00:10:53.000 That is different than what Steve Bannon did.
00:10:54.000 So, Steve Bannon did four months in jail because he was hit with a contempt charge.
00:10:58.000 He was hit with a contempt charge because he was subpoenaed by Democrats.
00:11:01.000 They wanted him to come and testify and turn over documents related to January 6th.
00:11:05.000 He said no.
00:11:06.000 They hit him with a criminal contempt charge.
00:11:07.000 He went to jail for four months.
00:11:09.000 Could Fauci have the same thing?
00:11:10.000 Well, there are a couple of distinguishing factors.
00:11:12.000 One distinguishing factor, theoretically, is the fact that Fauci actually showed up.
00:11:18.000 The other is that Fauci has a pardon for prior criminal conduct.
00:11:22.000 With that said, is it possible that theoretically the DOJ could prosecute him?
00:11:26.000 It could happen.
00:11:27.000 Another constitutional attorney said that theoretically the Senate could argue that Fauci has no valid basis to invoke the privilege for the matters that were covered by the pardon.
00:11:37.000 And so the committee theoretically has a couple of avenues.
00:11:39.000 You could pursue civil litigation to compel his testimony, or you could issue a criminal contempt referral to the DOJ.
00:11:44.000 That's the thing that Rand Paul is talking about today.
00:11:47.000 Barbara McQuaid, a former U.S. attorney, told Newsweek that Fauci could still face prosecution for any conduct that occurs after the granting of the pardon.
00:11:54.000 The Senate could compel testimony from Fauci by granting him immunity.
00:11:59.000 There's also the possibility of state level charges.
00:12:02.000 I know Florida has been investigating that possibility.
00:12:05.000 Now, again, there are a wide variety of pieces of evidence showing that what Fauci was saying publicly, while he was the head of the NIH, Was not comporting with what he was writing privately in his diary.
00:12:18.000 So, for example, he was putting heavy pressure on the media not to report the idea that the Wuhan flu started at a lab, not at a wet market.
00:12:25.000 And yet, he was writing January 26th, 2020.
00:12:29.000 It now appears, using epidata and genomic data, the first infection was in early December and was not connected to the market.
00:12:37.000 We know the market was not the source, it was the amplifier.
00:12:41.000 On January 31st, again, this is 2020, this is before most of the world knew there was a global pandemic.
00:12:48.000 Fauci noted that scientists questioned whether the virus could even have arisen naturally.
00:12:53.000 But by May, he was saying publicly that there was no scientific evidence the coronavirus was made in a Chinese lab.
00:12:59.000 When it came to closing things down,
00:13:04.000 Fauci told Batya Unger Sargon, when she was over at the Hill, that he didn't recommend locking anything down.
00:13:10.000 But we know from his diary that's not true.
00:13:13.000 He literally wrote in March of 2020 that he convinced Bill de Blasio and Gavin Newsom to close New York City and California down.
00:13:22.000 So, again, all of these would be ripe opportunities for Fauci to answer some questions, especially because he was given a pardon.
00:13:29.000 Now, one of the things I have to say here that is kind of astonishing is that if you really are rooting for the science, then science needs to be a self critical, humble process, right?
00:13:38.000 You get proved wrong a lot in science, it happens all the time.
00:13:42.000 And so, if you have somebody claiming to speak for the science who instead was speaking for his ego, well, wouldn't the scientific establishment have some sort of interest in uncovering that?
00:13:50.000 In other words, why is this a political thing?
00:13:52.000 This should just be a scientific thing.
00:13:54.000 There were other scientists pointing out that he was wrong at the time, ranging from Marty McCarrie to Jay Bhattacharya.
00:13:59.000 And Fauci was fighting all of them at the time. 1.00
00:14:02.000 But the Democrats, because again, the rule in our politics is so stupid. 0.99
00:14:05.000 If Trump is for something, Democrats are against it. 1.00
00:14:07.000 If Trump is against something, Democrats are for it.
00:14:09.000 Democrats turned Anthony Fauci into some sort of global hero.
00:14:13.000 So Democratic Senator Andy Kim yesterday was praising Fauci for being, quote unquote, the man in the arena.
00:14:20.000 But these public servants do it because they are in the arena.
00:14:26.000 I just want to end by just reading a portion of this because I think it's important as we're thinking about how to be able to treat public servants through this country to think through this.
00:14:38.000 And in the words of Teddy Roosevelt saying, it's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
00:14:48.000 The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly.
00:14:56.000 Who errors becomes short again and again, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumphs of hygiene.
00:15:05.000 I don't have to listen to this, Gary and Teddy Roosevelt.
00:15:06.000 Come on, come on, come on.
00:15:08.000 Really, come on.
00:15:09.000 It's so obnoxious.
00:15:10.000 Again, members of the media were doing this all day yesterday, just lamenting the fate of Anthony Fauci being asked tough questions. 0.89
00:15:15.000 Here's Stephanie Rule over at MS Now doing that.
00:15:19.000 It takes me back.
00:15:20.000 It breaks my heart.
00:15:20.000 I can't believe we're back here.
00:15:23.000 I can't believe we're relitigating this in the way that we are.
00:15:27.000 I'm grateful that you're here with us today.
00:15:29.000 You were with us for all of those days during COVID.
00:15:32.000 Thank you so much.
00:15:33.000 You know what had prevented that relitigation?
00:15:34.000 If the scientific community had held Fauci accountable for not reflecting the data, that would have helped.
00:15:38.000 That really, really would have helped.
00:15:39.000 Because some of us were trying to follow the data at a granular level, which meant that our opinions would change as the data changed.
00:15:45.000 And if it turns out that you were lying about the data, like, for example, that the vaccine was going to end transmissibility, which is a thing that was said over and over and over while Fauci was working in the Trump administration at the end of 2020, beginning of 2021, if it turns out that's falsified, well,
00:16:00.000 that's a real problem.
00:16:03.000 But for the left, anyone who is disliked by the right must necessarily be good, which presumably is why James Tallarico, back in 2021, was buying Fauci action figures for Christmas and celebrating them.
00:16:14.000 Is now the Senate Democrat candidate in Texas.
00:16:17.000 Quote, I got the coolest action figure for Christmas.
00:16:19.000 Thank you to all the healthcare superheroes working today.
00:16:21.000 Let's help by getting vaxxed and boosted.
00:16:24.000 Wow.
00:16:25.000 I can't imagine the hours of fun he spent playing with real life action figure Anthony Fauci.
00:16:30.000 You
00:16:33.000 know, whether there are any consequences or not, it seems to me that if there are going to be consequences for this thing in the future, it shouldn't just lie with Anthony Fauci.
00:16:39.000 It should lie with the entire system that refused to examine what Anthony Fauci was saying. 0.66
00:16:46.000 It should also lie with China, which spread the virus.
00:16:48.000 And it should lie, by the way, with members of the government in both parties who decided to leave this guy in a position of power. 0.79
00:16:55.000 Now, President Trump does take a hit for this.
00:16:57.000 Now, President Trump left Anthony Fauci in that position while publicly ripping on him.
00:17:05.000 He recalled his relationship with Fauci on Truth Social yesterday.
00:17:10.000 He put up a post.
00:17:11.000 He said many more people died of COVID under the Biden administration than under the Trump administration.
00:17:14.000 Operation Warp Speed was a spectacular success.
00:17:17.000 In fact, many say one of the most successful things ever done by an American president.
00:17:20.000 I overrode Fauci on this.
00:17:21.000 His ideas were crazy.
00:17:23.000 Also, I said from the beginning, the virus came from the Wuhan laboratory in China.
00:17:26.000 Fauci strongly disagreed, always trying to protect China. 0.74
00:17:28.000 I inherited Fauci, who was there since the eighties, but with each passing day, relied less and less on them. 0.98
00:17:32.000 He made too many bad calls like unmasks.
00:17:34.000 Remember at the beginning, he was an anti-masker, and then he switched to a super-masker.
00:17:37.000 In any event, I didn't let him shut the country down, although he wanted to.
00:17:40.000 I went the federalist way and let the governors decide.
00:17:43.000 The Republican governors did a much better job than the Democrats.
00:17:45.000 Fauci was largely taken out of play, and then along came sleepy Joe Biden, who made Fauci a king.
00:17:50.000 Again, it's a bit of a rewriting of history.
00:17:51.000 Fauci remained in charge of the system largely during Trump's administration.
00:17:56.000 Trump certainly handled it better than Biden, who continued to maintain the lockdown protocols and the vaccine rituals for children and the masking nonsense for full on a year after the pandemic had essentially mitigated.
00:18:12.000 But bottom line is this if we want better policy for the future, then some self critical investigation would be a good thing.
00:18:20.000 Not just, you know, berating Fauci or defending Fauci full scale.
00:18:23.000 What an amazing video you just watched.
00:18:25.000 Wasn't that amazing?
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