Gloria Allred has been a women s rights and discrimination lawyer for 44 years. She s been involved in many high-profile cases, including the Netflix documentary, Seeing Allred: Gloria s Life on Trial. Gloria was recently inducted into the Women s Hall of Fame.
00:00:41.000The national trial lawyers have recognized her with the Lifetime Achievement Award for her battles against injustice for women and minorities.
00:00:46.000And Gloria was also recently inducted into the Women's Hall of Fame.
00:00:49.000Gloria, thanks so much for stopping by.
00:00:51.000Thank you very much for inviting me, Ben.
00:00:53.000Well, in just a second, I'm going to start asking you questions.
00:00:55.000But first, reminder, we'll be doing some bonus questions you only get to ask if you are a subscriber.
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00:02:09.000So for those of us who aren't familiar with sort of how you got to where you are, like my first familiarity with you was not just you were on KBC and I used to listen to KBC out here in Los Angeles for years, but also my sister's favorite movie was Rat Race.
00:02:20.000And so your cameo in Rat Race was definitely the first time I'd ever actually seen you.
00:02:25.000So how did you get to be Gloria Allred?
00:02:28.000Well, there were very few women's rights lawyers when I started out in the 70s, and the National Organization for Women asked me to be the president of the Los Angeles chapter.
00:02:43.000Uh, essentially because I did care about women's rights and also no one else would do it at the time.
00:02:48.000No one else wanted to be called a feminist.
00:02:53.000And then, uh, I decided that because I was blessed to become a lawyer, there were very few women lawyers at the time, 93% of my law school class, but they were men that, uh, I felt that I had a duty to give back and at least do some cases.
00:03:09.000that would help women to assert their rights and vindicate their rights in a court of law.
00:03:13.000And so I took on some cases, and the more cases that I took, the more people wanted to come to me, also because we were developing an expertise in those cases, and almost nobody else would take those cases.
00:03:28.000So we began to do sexual harassment, employment cases, pregnancy discrimination, sex discrimination, rape, sexual assault, child sexual abuse cases for plaintiffs, that is for victims.
00:03:40.000And so that's how we became the leading women's rights law firm in the United States, which we have been for 44 years.
00:03:47.000So historically, how have you chosen your clients?
00:03:49.000Because obviously you've had an enormous number of high-profile clients, you've been very present in the media.
00:03:53.000How do you choose which clients you want to focus in on?
00:03:58.000We get requests for representation from almost every state in the United States and sometimes from women living abroad or minorities living abroad.
00:04:43.000If we cannot assist someone at our law firm, which is all red, Morocco and Goldberg, and we have offices in New York and Los Angeles, some licensed in both states, as well as being licensed in Washington, D.C.
00:04:56.000But if we cannot assist them, we will try to provide them with a referral.
00:05:01.000Because we'd like everyone to be able to have access to justice.
00:05:04.000So in terms of sort of the big public debate that's been happening over Me Too, and there have been so many high-profile cases regarding sexual harassment or sexual assault in the recent past, how do you determine credibility issues?
00:05:16.000So one of the things that we've heard a lot from the media, and there's a hashtag that's been trending very prominently, the Believe All Women movement.
00:05:24.000And as a lawyer myself, I've always thought that doesn't make a lot of sense in the sense that lots of people don't tell the truth.
00:05:30.000Obviously the percentages are not great in terms of women who are lying about something bad happening to them, but how do you determine what amounts to a credible accusation and what amounts to a non-credible accusation?
00:05:42.000Not just the word of the person who wishes to be our client, but also, you know, is there some sort of corroboration?
00:05:48.000For example, if there's a rape, have they told anyone kind of what we call a spontaneous or contemporaneous outcry soon after or at any point prior to their coming to us?
00:06:02.000Have they told a friend, a family member, a co-worker, a therapist, a doctor?
00:06:09.000a priest, a rabbi, a minister, who have they told?
00:06:41.000I will say that fortunately, we just won and probably Possibly the biggest sexual harassment verdict ever in the United States.
00:06:53.000We haven't found anyone that's larger.
00:06:55.000We won for our client, Mahim Khan, a verdict by a Los Angeles County Superior Court jury who found that Alki David, who is a billionaire and who was the defendant, In our case, that the jury found in Maheem's favor and came back with an award of compensatory damages $8,250,000 and punitive damages, damages to punish Mr. David of $50 million.
00:07:18.000and punitive damages, damages to punish Mr. David of $50 million.
00:07:31.000So again, we haven't found any larger verdict ever in a sexual harassment case for one victim against one employer.
00:07:40.000And just prior to that case, within a month, my partners also tried another case against Mr. David.
00:07:47.000Again, another victim who alleged sexual harassment.
00:07:51.000Uh, and in that case, the jury came back with $5 million verdict in favor of our client, Lauren Reeves, against Mr. David.
00:08:00.000So he's now owing us once all the judgments are entered in excess of $63 million.
00:08:05.000And, of course, I have also gone to the Beverly Hills Police Department on behalf of and accompanied by Mahim Khan and asked them to open now a criminal investigation into Mr. David.
00:08:22.000But we are looking for accountability from perpetrators who inflict injustices on our clients, most of whom are women, but we also represent a lot of men who are victims of sexual harassment.
00:08:38.000And also, of course, we represent minorities who are discriminated against or in some way hurt either because of their sexual orientation, because people perceive they have AIDS or HIV, or in fact, they do have AIDS or HIV.
00:08:56.000And so because everybody should be treated equally, everybody should be treated with respect and dignity.
00:09:01.000And everybody should be afforded their rights and there's no point in having rights that on the books that people have marched for, lobbied for, testified for, and sacrificed for if there's no way to enforce those rights.
00:09:14.000So Ben, we're like private attorney generals in our private law firm and we go about enforcing those rights.
00:09:21.000And when it comes to this corpus of law, do you think that there is any economic downside for some of the groups that are specifically being protected by the law?
00:09:28.000So this argument has been made before by libertarians particularly, where they say, let's say you have laws that are on the books to protect women against sexual harassment, and so employers decide they don't want to face the possibility of liability, and so they're less likely to hire a woman.
00:09:42.000What do you make of the argument that the best remedy to some of this is to basically work for companies where men are not going to be pigs?
00:09:51.000As opposed to legal remedies that create an entire risk liability scenario for companies that may be willing to treat women fine but now are afraid of the possibility of legal action in the future.
00:10:01.000Well, of course, then they can be charged with sex discrimination.
00:10:04.000And so that's kind of a no-win situation for them.
00:10:08.000I would say the best option for companies is just to monitor your workplace.
00:10:13.000educate people about the policy of the company and the law of the United States, which is equal employment opportunity, and there should not be any sexual harassment on the job because that's considered generally sex discrimination, and sex discrimination interferes with the right, and sex discrimination interferes with the right, the law, which mandates that a person has a right to equal employment opportunity.
00:10:39.000So I think that nobody should take this to extremes.
00:10:44.000Sexual harassment does interfere with equal employment opportunity, but the answer is not sex discrimination, excluding a class of people solely on account of their gender.
00:10:53.000The answer is just make your workplace a workplace and not something that is interfered with by placing people in a no-win situation where if they say yes to sexual harassment, Later the guy or whoever's harassing them may get tired of them and then they lose their job.
00:11:11.000Or if they say no, then that person who's the employer may go into ego shock because they said no, they didn't want to go around along with it.
00:11:19.000So, you know, it's, it's, this is doable by employers if they want to make it doable.
00:11:25.000And if they don't, then they do risk lawsuits.
00:11:32.000And it's better for them just to make sure their workplace is not hostile or toxic because of sexual harassment or race discrimination, sex discrimination, discrimination on account of sexual orientation or age or any other reason.
00:11:50.000And that way they can have their workers do what they were hired to do.
00:11:56.000So, you play sort of a dual role in the American public.
00:11:59.000Obviously, you're a high-profile lawyer winning these big cases, and on the other hand, you also are commenting publicly on sort of issues of the day.
00:12:04.000The nice thing about the legal sphere is at least there seems to be, maybe it's not always applied, but a sort of standard.
00:12:10.000So, for example, you have to, by a preponderance of the evidence, prove a charge, or beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal cases, prove a charge.
00:12:17.000Or, for punitive damages, damages to punish, because it shocks the conscience of the community, there's a different standard.
00:12:26.000And so that's higher than preponderance, but lower than beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:12:32.000But in the public mind, when it comes to a lot of these cases, which sort of hit, you know, the front pages, and then the public is asked to make decisions about them.
00:12:39.000And here I'm thinking specifically about, for example, the nomination of Justice Kavanaugh, where that was not a criminal trial.
00:12:44.000But in that particular case, this became a very hot button issue for all of the United States.
00:12:48.000And there was no clear standard as to what sort of evidence was necessary in order for people to convict or not convict in the mind of the public.
00:12:57.000So not just with specific to Kavanaugh, but generally, what do you think, you know, as somebody who litigates in this area, what do you think the American public, they see a charge on the front page, what do you think is the standard of evidence that we should apply in our own mind when we determine is an accusation tantamount to guilt or what sort of evidence should be necessary in order for us to go along with the idea that what do you think is the standard of evidence that we should apply in our own mind Is an accusation tantamount to guilt, or what sort of evidence should be necessary in order for us to go along with the idea that somebody's career, for example, should be affected?
00:13:18.000Parenthetically, I just had an opportunity to have a chat with Justice Kavanaugh at a reception at the Supreme Court, to which I was invited.
00:13:28.000But of course, I didn't talk about the allegations that were made against him, nor would I ever say what he said to me.
00:13:36.000I've also met other justices of the Supreme Court and had a chance to chat with them.
00:13:40.000So I don't I don't talk about what they said.
00:13:42.000But in any event, what it should be, the standard in the political setting is exactly what you're asking.
00:13:48.000And it's pretty much the same standard as applies to your show and people who watch it or listen to it or both.
00:13:58.000And anything on the Internet, which is everything goes in the court of public opinion.
00:14:07.000People can reach a conclusion without any facts whatsoever or with just using the facts they choose to recognize or acknowledge or with no fact, however they want to.
00:14:33.000It's just political theater and political decision making.
00:14:39.000And that's just the way, I mean, the Constitution has it.
00:14:42.000It's a political body that is going to be making these decisions.
00:14:47.000And so for their purposes, the politicians' purposes, as anything goes, we'd like to think that there is some kind of burden of proof, that facts matter, that the law matters, that the Constitution matters.
00:15:01.000But these politicians can make up their decision any way they want to.
00:15:05.000And for many of them, it's just about will they be able to keep their jobs if they make it one way or another?
00:15:12.000So in a second, I want to ask you about the role of television and media in the justice system generally.
00:15:18.000But first, what kind of earbuds are you using to listen to this riveting program?
00:15:23.000Well, if you are listening on those old-fashioned earbuds, the one with the wires, and you take them out and then you put them in your pocket, and when you take them out again, they're all tangled up like a Birds nest, and it takes you half an hour to untangle them.
00:16:43.000Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the fact that, as an incredibly high-profile attorney, you're on TV a lot, and the big critique that's been launched against you typically is that you are looking for attention, that you're looking for cameras.
00:16:53.000What role should publicity play in judicial proceedings?
00:16:58.000Because obviously, when you are attempting to mobilize public opinion in a particular case, and this does make a difference, you need the cameras there.
00:17:04.000So, in an ideal world, what role would media play?
00:17:06.000And in the real world, what role does the media play?
00:17:08.000Okay, well, it's not about publicity at all.
00:17:10.000It's about Uh, coverage of, uh, important issues of our time.
00:17:17.000Issues that are of public interest or public importance or both.
00:17:21.000And also, I'm not a person who believes that women and minorities should suffer in silence.
00:17:26.000I believe that what they are suffering, the wrongs against them, the injustices against them, in certain cases, if they achieve the goals of the client or can help to achieve those goals, should be made public.
00:17:39.000So yes, I know that certain people who are in power would not like those who are not in power to speak out about the wrongs that have been inflicted on them.
00:17:51.000But I do think it's important for elected officials and for members of the public to know, because we need to establish and create a climate of opinion that is favorable to change.
00:18:02.000And I do believe what Gandhi said, that we must be the change we wish to see in the world.
00:18:07.000And so my clients, Often want to speak truth to power.
00:18:11.000And by speaking to truth to power, they are also not only empowering themselves, but they're empowering many others who are in similar situations to speak out.
00:18:21.000So, for example, in the Jeffrey Epstein case where I represent a number of accusers of Jeffrey Epstein, and we have filed to date three lawsuits for our clients who were underage when they alleged that they were sexually abused and sexually trafficked.
00:18:41.000So when they want to speak out, they should have that right to speak out.
00:18:46.000And that also encourages others just to know what their rights are, perhaps to assert their rights, perhaps to vindicate their rights in courts of law.
00:18:55.000So no, they shouldn't have to be silenced.
00:18:57.000The victims of Harvey Weinstein, if they can prove that they are victims, they can speak their truth.
00:19:06.000And we have with a number of persons who allege they are victims of Harvey Weinstein, by the way, the trial starting the criminal trial January 6.
00:19:14.000I represent one of the two victims for whom charges have been filed by the Manhattan D.A.' 's office.
00:19:23.000And I also represent another witness in the case, Annabella Shora.
00:19:28.000Who will testify on the issue of sexually predatory conduct?
00:19:33.000So yeah, I think that they should be able to make known what they allege has happened to them.
00:19:42.000Likewise, in the case of R. Kelly, where I also represent a number of accusers, And I represent the majority of the persons who are alleged to be victims in the criminal case now pending against him in New York, brought by the United States Justice Department for the Eastern District of New York.
00:20:01.000And many of those women, some of whom are African-American, were ignored for a long time.
00:20:06.000I don't know if it was because they were African-American, perhaps.
00:20:10.000But yes, they have their right to speak truth to power.
00:20:14.000In this case, power is a powerful celebrity, R. Kelly.
00:20:17.000Just like I represented 33 accusers in Bill Cosby, he's now where he belongs, convicted of indecent sexual assault against Andrea Constant, and he is now classified as a sexually violent predator.
00:20:30.000Here you've got a celebrity who was, you know, had a very, maybe he had the highest Friendly public rating, Q rating, they call it in television, when he was doing his show in the 90s.
00:20:44.000And yet now, you know, he says he's a political prisoner.
00:20:49.000He's just a convicted felon, a convicted sexual predator.
00:20:53.000So, but, you know, it takes courage to speak out to a powerful figure.
00:21:00.000Like Bill Cosby or R. Kelly, Jeffrey Epstein when he was alive, but even now when there's an investigation of whether anyone conspired with Mr. Epstein to sexually traffic underage girls.
00:21:15.000And also in reference to Mr. Weinstein, who was a very powerful producer in Hollywood.
00:21:21.000But this is what's happening and women are becoming empowered.
00:21:28.000So now, what we've done now in this Me Too era, which is a form of the reckoning, is, you know, instead of the victims waking up in fear, now often the men who have hurt them every day wake up and like, oh my God, is this the day where the women I've hurt in the past are going to speak out and my career is going to be ruined or in shambles?
00:21:53.000You know, maybe they should reconsider in the future, do they want to continue hurting women?
00:21:59.000And now maybe they better think twice about it, because there can be serious consequences.
00:22:04.000Well, as an out-and-proud prude and religious Jew, I'm very much in favor of men treating women with tremendous respect and ensuring that women's boundaries are upheld.
00:22:12.000What are the boundaries, and what should the boundaries be when it comes to MeToo?
00:22:15.000Because we've seen some interesting cases where the boundaries seem to have been blurred.
00:22:19.000The one that comes to mind off the top of my head is the Aziz Ansari case.
00:22:22.000Aziz Ansari is this famous comedian, and there's this big report that a woman goes on a date with him.
00:22:26.000Basically, it sounds like a date that goes wrong.
00:22:30.000It's seen as a Me Too moment, and now Aziz Ansari is sort of on the hook.
00:22:33.000And there have been a lot of men who are complaining that the boundaries of Me Too are not clear.
00:22:38.000That, well, they're very much in favor of the Harvey Weinsteins, who are clearly abusing women, and the Jeffrey Epsteins, who are clearly engaged in rape and sexual abuse.
00:22:48.000And even cases like some of the ones that you've moved forward with on sexual harassment, where they're very much in favor of clear evidence of sexual harassment and sexual abuse being prosecuted or sued upon.
00:22:59.000they don't know where the limiting principle is with regard to how to behave toward women.
00:23:03.000Now is that a subjective thing, or do you think there's an actual objective standard as to when an activity belongs in the category of Me Too and when a category does not belong in the category of Me Too? - Well, we only take cases where we think, you know, there is severe or pervasive sexual harassment or sexual battery or just simple battery.
00:23:26.000So, for example, what the jury heard in our case against Alki David, the billionaire, that case which we just won, Um, you know, they heard testimony about, uh, Mr. David allegedly, uh, taking my client's head and driving her by the neck and forcing her head down, uh, towards his penis.
00:23:51.000They heard testimony about, uh, you know, other, uh, unconsented to, uh, behavior that would constitute sexual battery.
00:24:01.000And there's some that I can't even say on the air that is so disgusting that it happened in the workplace.
00:24:07.000I would say to the men, you could consult the law.
00:24:10.000That's a good place to start for what boundaries are, in case you don't know that you should not force a woman's face onto your penis.
00:24:21.000Again, these are areas where there should be broad agreement, yes.
00:24:23.000No, but I'm just saying, in case you didn't know that, in case you shouldn't take a woman's breasts and pop them out of her brassiere and then take your bare hand and place it on it in the workplace.
00:25:19.000She's not your wife, but even then she needs to be able to consent.
00:25:23.000Or don't touch a man unless he consents.
00:25:26.000If she's under the influence of alcohol, if she's under the influence of drugs, or both, don't try to guess whether she's consenting to being sexually touched by you.
00:25:40.000If she can't consent, as Bill Cosby found out, under the influence of drugs, there's no power to consent because she's under the influence of drugs or alcohol or both.
00:25:51.000So just don't get involved in sexual activity with her until she's at a point where she could consent.
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00:28:18.000Okay, but the problem is that it's not quite as simple as all of that.
00:28:21.000I wish it were quite as simple as all of that, right?
00:28:23.000I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to find many people in America who would say no to that question, but obviously there's widespread disagreement about where the lines are drawn.
00:28:31.000Well, there doesn't have to be any disagreement.
00:28:34.000And then ask yourself, how would you want your daughter to be treated?
00:28:38.000And most people, when they think, especially fathers, When they think about how they would like their daughter to be treated without going into, well, what's the definition of feminism?
00:28:48.000They want their daughter to be treated with respect, with dignity, not to become a victim of gender violence, not to be paid less than men, not to be treated in a way that would constitute sexual harassment, not to be discriminated against if they become pregnant.
00:29:06.000Well, that's really what feminists believe.
00:29:09.000So among other things, You know, not to have a problem collecting their child support if somehow the marriage breaks up or there is no marriage.
00:29:23.000Or plan to have daughters how you'd want them to be treated, and then you're probably a feminist.
00:29:27.000I have fathers that come up to me all the time, if I'm walking down the street or elsewhere, and say, thank you, we know you're doing this for our daughters.
00:29:35.000I may not agree with everything you say, Gloria, but I know that's what you're trying to do, and I appreciate that.
00:29:40.000So, how should feminism view the institution of marriage?
00:29:44.000If you look at some of the more famous feminist writers, the Betty Friedans of the world, for example, they're very critical of the institution of marriage, seeing it as a sort of patriarchal imposition On women, how should feminists see marriage?
00:29:55.000Well, actually, marriage, the institution of marriage was begun because men wanted to know who their children were.
00:30:03.000Because they didn't know if it was their children or somebody else's children if the wife or their significant other became pregnant.
00:30:10.000And this is when women were considered property.
00:30:35.000I do think that people should treat each other as equal partners.
00:30:40.000If they are married, not a master-slave relationship, not one person dominating the other person, and if people treat each other as best friends, as equal partners, and they have good communication, and they are fair with each other, and honest with each other, then it's going to work.
00:30:58.000And if they're not, one person starts to lie or, you know, do things they shouldn't with someone else after they made a commitment, taken a vow, for better or for worse.
00:31:10.000A lot of people think it's just for better, but it's better or worse.
00:31:13.000And then ultimately, you know, it's probably going to work.
00:31:16.000But it's very difficult to be married these days because we live in a very mobile society where people move around, they change careers.
00:31:24.000Sometimes they have other people in their life as you know as intimate partners.
00:31:29.000It's it's very challenging but I think people generally start out with good intentions and Sometimes it kind of deteriorates from there on a philosophical level there's been sort of an interesting conversation about with regard to feminism when it when it Speaks for the equality of women does does that mean the equality or does it mean the sameness between men and women?
00:31:49.000I mean take for example It's all about that's why I said Equal.
00:31:55.000It's about improving the condition and status of women to help to bring women into the mainstream of American life in equal partnership with men.
00:32:02.000In each and every aspect of life, we don't have an equal number of women elected to Congress or to the United States Senate.
00:32:08.000Yeah, but we have more women than men going to law school and more women than men going to college.
00:32:11.000Okay, well that's good for, you know, it's the beginning.
00:33:25.000Men who identify as women are not, in fact, biological women, and so having them race against biological women— Oh, now you're talking about transgender?
00:33:31.000Because feminism—this is why I'm asking the question between equality and sameness, because obviously either these are malleable categories or they are not malleable categories.
00:33:39.000I mean, that's a mutually exclusive proposition.
00:33:42.000So, the idea of a man identifying as a woman for purposes of competing, or generally, and then competing with biological women.
00:33:49.000They're generally not identifying as a woman just for the purposes of sport.
00:33:52.000Agreed, that's why I amended the statement.
00:33:53.000So, a man who identifies as a woman because he believes he is a woman, and he is competing with women.
00:33:59.000As a feminist, is that something that you are pro or against?
00:34:24.000In a case against Trump before he became president.
00:34:28.000And she was, once someone sent an anonymous tip to the Miss Universe Miss Canada pageant that she was going to be in, that in fact, she was born with a male anatomy, then they excluded her from the pageant, which Trump owned.
00:34:43.000But then of course, I raised that issue in a significant manner, and Mr. Trump and I just kind of kept challenging Mr. Trump on it, challenging him on it, appeared on 2020 or Barbara Walters special.
00:34:59.000And then bottom line is he ended up putting her back in and they eliminated the rule, which I wanted them to eliminate.
00:35:06.000You have to be a naturally born female to be in a pageant.
00:35:11.000But having said that in his pageant, but the point is it is very difficult where it comes to sports, But I just don't think anyone should be denied the opportunity to compete solely on account of their gender or because they are transgender.
00:35:31.000And it's just difficult, but I think that's the way it is.
00:35:34.000So would you-- I don't want to deny anybody an opportunity.
00:35:39.000So why does self-identity make a difference there?
00:35:42.000Meaning if a man just wants to compete in a female sport, why should he not be able to?
00:35:45.000Why should the self-identity be the deciding factor?
00:35:48.000Uh, well, uh, again, that's a hard one.
00:35:53.000It's, I'm kind of thinking about it myself, but I think, you know, in certain sports it would give an advantage, uh, to the men and deny an opportunity to the women.
00:36:07.000So... A similar question to be asked about... At this point, it may be that, that it makes sense to deny a man to be in a woman's sport.
00:36:17.000Well, you take public education, for example.
00:36:20.000I went to an all-girls high school back in the cave age.
00:36:35.000And we didn't have, really, men didn't want to be, or boys didn't want to be in it at the time, all-girls high school.
00:36:43.000Because women were considered of less value.
00:36:46.000Some of the girls decided they wanted to go to the all-boys high school, also publicly funded.
00:36:52.000Men being considered of more value, maybe having more programs there, maybe it was better funded, because after all, they were men, considered to be more important than women.
00:37:03.000There have been core challenges and since then, The courts have decided that, yes, boys should have the opportunity to go to Girls High.
00:37:10.000Girls should have the opportunity to go to Central High School, which was the all-boys high school in Philadelphia.
00:37:17.000Is there any area of American life where you believe that there should be the ability to have a female-only space or a male-only space?
00:37:24.000I mean, there's pretty good evidence to suggest that, for example, girls tend to actually do better in girls-only classes because, thanks to, in many cases, a sort of patriarchal view of boys, women actually perform better when they are not confronted with boys in classes.
00:37:35.000I think there's some evidence of that.
00:37:36.000I would have to agree with you on that.
00:37:38.000And I would say, if it's completely private, That they have the right to do it.
00:37:45.000If, however, they accept any taxpayer funds, they don't have the right to do it.
00:37:50.000You're not talking about a lesser quality of education for the girls, though.
00:37:52.000You're actually talking about a protection of the girls, even in the public sphere.
00:37:55.000I'm talking about excluding someone on account of their gender, that they shouldn't be able to do that if they're receiving any public funds, any taxpayer funds at all.
00:38:14.000No, but it's a separate space argument.
00:38:16.000By the way, I remember that bathroom argument presented to me by a judge back in the 70s when I was representing a man in Santa Monica who wanted to be on the Commission on the Status of Women.
00:39:05.000I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about your perspective on abortion, because I want to give you the opportunity to give a good pro-choice view on abortion.
00:39:21.000So we'll talk about that in just one second.
00:39:23.000First, let's talk about those horrible stories you see on the news about some celebrity who's been hacked, and now their nude photos are out there.
00:39:29.000Rule number one, don't take nude photos of yourself using a phone.
00:39:32.000I mean, Gloria Allred's sitting right here.
00:39:34.000She will tell you that's probably a bad idea.
00:39:35.000I don't know, maybe Gloria won't say that.
00:39:36.000In any case, make sure, secondly, that all your data is protected.
00:39:40.000There are tons of VPN providers out there.
00:39:42.000You've probably heard of a couple of them.
00:39:44.000Some of you may have even used a VPN before.
00:40:10.000Even when I connect to servers thousands of miles away, I can still stream HD quality videos with zero lag.
00:40:15.000The last thing that really sets ExpressVPN apart from other VPNs, it's really easy to use.
00:40:19.000Unlike other VPNs, you don't have to input or program anything.
00:40:22.000You fire up the app, you click one button, and you're connected.
00:40:24.000It's so easy, even your grandparents could use it.
00:40:27.000You will benefit from ExpressVPN because there are just too many people out there who are looking for your data.
00:40:30.000So, protect yourself with the VPN I use and trust.
00:40:33.000So, Gloria Allred, I want to ask you about your perspective on abortion, because I've gotten a lot of people who want me to ask you that question, and I'd love to hear your perspective also.
00:40:50.000Okay, so obviously I'm very pro-life, you're very pro-choice, so I wanted to get your take, and I know obviously you have a deeply felt personal story about how you came to this conclusion, but why are you pro-choice as opposed to pro-life?
00:41:03.000Well, I'm pro-choice because I don't think that the United States government, or for that matter any government, should be making laws which restrict or eliminate a woman's right to choose safe, legal, affordable, available abortions.
00:41:21.000Because when government tries to restrict or eliminate a woman's right to choose, what they're saying is essentially that
00:41:30.000They think they're saying, or maybe they purport to be saying, that a woman should not be able to get an abortion, but of course women will still continue to get abortions, only they will be illegal, unsafe, and many women will die, as they did before Roe v. Wade, perhaps hemorrhaged to death, which I almost did, because I had to have an abortion provided by
00:41:55.000Someone who is not a licensed health care provider because it was not I was not able because of the laws To be able to have access to a licensed health care provider like a doctor to perform an abortion so many women had what's called back alley abortions where they almost bled to death or were maimed or did die and I don't want that to happen to anybody else's daughter or sister or mama and
00:42:20.000And the people who are hurt by these laws attempting to restrict abortion are young women, poor women, rural women, and mainly women of color.
00:42:32.000Maybe they can't afford the bus fare to go to another state where abortion is still legal.
00:42:37.000Maybe they can't even get there because they're working two jobs or three jobs or have other kids to support.
00:42:44.000So in other words, I don't believe in mandatory motherhood, perhaps like you do, where women are forced to take a fetus to term and deliver.
00:42:54.000I don't believe that a fertilized egg should have more rights than an adult woman.
00:43:03.000And I think this is all very dangerous to women's health.
00:43:06.000It's a hot button issue for millions of women around the country.
00:43:10.000Do you believe there should be any period-based restrictions on abortion or abortion should be available up to point of birth?
00:43:15.000I think that Roe v. Wade, the 1973 United States Supreme Court decision, which found that women have a fundamental constitutional right to choose abortion at certain stages of their pregnancy, which cannot be interfered with by the government or anyone else.
00:43:32.000I think that is a decision which should remain, even though the anti-choice activists I want to try to reverse Roe v. Wade and allow states to make ridiculous and dangerous restrictions on abortion.
00:43:49.000One state even trying to make an abortion illegal for a woman to try to get one, even before she's even pregnant, knows she's pregnant.
00:44:08.000Yes, I had an abortion and I almost died when I was in my 20s.
00:44:14.000So I know what it's like to be a young woman who doesn't know where to go, what to do.
00:44:20.000But, you know, yes, I know I've seen pictures of the protests where there are a lot of men and teenagers from certain religious schools out there protesting.
00:44:33.000I'm not saying there are no women, but I'm saying I know they have religious beliefs about forcing women to take pregnancies to term.
00:44:42.000They say they're pro-life, and what about the life of the mother is my question, or the woman who's carrying the fetus.
00:44:50.000I'm not aware that anybody's wanting to kill my mother.
00:44:52.000But you know, I just don't believe anybody should be able to impose their religious ideology on others who don't necessarily subscribe to that, those religious beliefs.
00:45:03.000Everyone is entitled to be respected for their religious beliefs, but not to have the government Weaponize those beliefs into law.
00:45:12.000What about the scientific life interest of the fetus?
00:45:15.000What I mean there is that I speak to pro-life groups, I'm sure, far more often than you do.
00:45:19.000I'm sure you speak to pro-choice groups far more often than I do by converse.
00:45:22.000And the main argument that I articulate and that pro-lifers around me articulate is not a religiously based argument.
00:45:29.000It's an argument based on the science of fetal development.
00:45:32.000The question that I'm asking is, even Roe v. Wade acknowledges that at a certain point in the pregnancy there is a countervailing interest in the life of the child.
00:45:40.000Do you acknowledge that there is a countervailing interest in the life of the child and the preservation thereof?
00:45:45.000And on what basis in the fetal development would you place that countervailing life interest?
00:45:49.000I mean, how much do you care about the life of the woman?
00:45:52.000Versus the life of the fetus or, you know, the future of the fetus.
00:46:13.000I don't think that elected officials sitting in Washington or Sacramento or any other capital of any state Who have never met any of these women who are getting pregnant should be making a decision for them that is going to affect their lives.
00:46:28.000That is what's happening and that is why we have such a stake in the next election because whoever is elected as President of the United States is going to be able to select I promise, I'm only going to ask it one more time and then I know we have to run.
00:46:56.000The question again is about the life interest of the fetus.
00:46:59.000I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge the life interest of the mother, which is why, again, I'm in favor of the possibility of abortion when a mother's life is in danger.
00:47:28.000And you are too young to remember what it was like I'm old enough to know that there are a million abortions a year, some of them late term.
00:47:34.000You're too young to know, being that you're, what, 36, to know what it was like before 1973 in the U.S.
00:48:40.000I'm not in favor of laws which restrict you into choices you're going to make, as long as they're legal, in reference to your sexual activity.
00:48:50.000But apparently you want to impose a whole set of laws on women.
00:48:55.000Which it's going to make them risk their lives.
00:52:19.000Before we go, I just want to give you all an important update on next year's edition of The Sunday Special.
00:52:23.000The Sunday Special will be returning to your podcast feeds on March 1st, 2020.
00:52:27.000We'll be delivering 13 straight weeks of bold, exciting interviews with iconic guests.
00:52:31.000So, hang tight for new episodes this March, because we've got some great things planned out for you.
00:52:36.000We've had an amazing year full of terrific interviews with guests like Dave Ramsey, Dr. Phil, Andrew Yang, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Nikki Haley, Piers Morgan, and more.
00:52:43.000And we're so excited to bring you another fantastic lineup coming March.
00:52:46.000If you haven't seen any of these great episodes yet, check out the Sunday special at dailywire.com, the Daily Wire YouTube channel, or anywhere you get the Ben Shapiro Show podcast.
00:52:54.000So again, the Sunday special will be returning to your podcast feeds, social media channels, and dailywire.com on March 1st, 2020.