Lila Rose is founder and president of Live Action, one of the leading pro-life and human rights organizations in the country. She's also the host of The Lila Rose Show, a show that focuses on abortion and the abortion industry. In this episode, Lila shares her story of how she became a pro-choice advocate and how she went from being a nurse to fighting for abortion rights. She also discusses the dangers of central governments manipulating the markets and why Bitcoin might be worth considering investing in crypto. Ben Shapiro is a writer, speaker, and podcast host. His work has been featured on CNN, Fox News, NPR, and the New York Times, and he is a frequent contributor to The Daily Wire. He is a regular contributor to the Financial Times, The Weekly Standard, and The Huffington Post. He is also the founder and host of the Live Action podcast, The Live Action Project, and hosts the show, "The LilaRose Show," where she talks about abortion, abortion, and abortion rights in America. You can reach Ben Shapiro at: and his website at . He is the author of the book, "Abortion: The Truth About It." and is the founder of the podcast, "Pro-Life: A Call to Action: The Story of a Pro-Life Movement." He's also on the radio show, The Life-Action Project, "Live Action." on the podcast "The Life Action Project on the Tonight Show with Ben Shapiro. and The Late Night Show with Alex Castellanos. on his new show on Sirius XM Radio and The Morning Drive with Alex Blumberg, and is a host on the new podcast, The Life Talk Radio. His new book, Life After Abortion. is out now on Amazon Prime and the new show, Life After Birth Control. Learn more about abortion and pro-Life After Abortion: The Life After Three Trimester. Subscribe to Life After 3 Trimester: The Pro Life Revolution, the Pro-Birth control and the Pro Life Movement? Subscribe and Share it on the ProLife Movement and more! Subscribe on Apple Podcasts! Subscribe on iTunes and Subscribe on Podchaserx=a& Subscribe on the App Store & Subscribe on Stitcher Thank you! Thanks for listening to The Ben Shapiro Show? Subscribe for more Ben Shapiro's Sunday Special on this and other Podcast Episodes? Subscribe on Itunes
00:00:00.000The head nurse at UCLA sits me down and she says point blank, UCLA doesn't support women who are pregnant or help them.
00:00:07.000So it was very crystal clear immediately why there's no pregnant girls on campus, because we were being told point blank, you should have an abortion.
00:00:15.000Hey, hey, and welcome to the Ben Shapiro Show Sunday special.
00:00:24.000This week, I'm excited to welcome Lila Rose.
00:00:26.000Lila is founder and president of Live Action, one of the leading pro-life and human rights organizations in the country.
00:00:31.000She's also the host of the Lila Rose Show.
00:00:33.000We'll get to our questions for Lila Rose in just one moment.
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00:01:50.000So why don't we start off by explaining what live action is for folks who are not familiar with the group.
00:01:55.000Sure, so Live Action is the digital leader right now for the pro-life movement.
00:01:59.000We reach millions of people every day with pro-life content to educate hearts and minds, both about what abortion is, the violence it does to a baby, and then the beauty of life, motherhood, fatherhood, how good and important it is to fight for life.
00:02:11.000And we do a lot of investigative reporting of the Planned Parenthood, the abortion industry, and we reach especially young people, so lots of teens, 20s, 30s.
00:02:19.000So in a second I want to ask you about some of the specifics that you've done with live action.
00:02:22.000But first, how did you get into this issue in the first place?
00:02:24.000Because you and I first met when you were maybe 17 and you were working at UCLA and you were working on exposing the abortion industry.
00:02:32.000But what made you want to get into exposing the abortion industry in the first place?
00:02:36.000Sure, so it wasn't like just a hobby that I got into.
00:02:40.000It felt like a calling when I was a teenager because I learned about abortion as a young girl.
00:02:45.000I'm from the Bay Area, California, one of eight kids, and oldest of five of them, so the third oldest.
00:02:52.000And just growing up in that kind of a household, life was very precious, you know, it's a gift.
00:02:56.000And then when I found out about abortion, my parents weren't activists, but they were more conservative politically.
00:03:01.000And I found out about abortion by reading this book that they had in their living room called A Handbook on Abortion by Dr. and Mrs. Wilkie, this old kind of 1980s-looking book.
00:03:17.000And I just came across facts about what abortion—what was happening with abortion in America, and I saw photos of a child in the first trimester.
00:03:26.000So it's amazing how quickly this—a baby grows.
00:03:29.000I mean, I'm third trimester right now.
00:03:30.000But first trimester, tiny, but still, by 10 weeks, you have newly formed arms, legs, and tiny, newly formed little face.
00:03:37.000The heart's beating after three weeks.
00:03:59.000I come across Mother Teresa writing and speaking about it, who becomes a hero to me.
00:04:04.000And she calls abortion the greatest destroyer of peace.
00:04:08.000Because she says, in a nation Where a mother can kill her own child, what is left but for you or for I to kill one another?
00:04:16.000And just absorbing all of this, Ben, I was deeply moved and I thought, this is the human rights issue of our day.
00:04:22.000Not a lot of people are talking about it, not a lot of people are doing stuff about it, but this is a human rights issue and I have to do something about it.
00:04:28.000So as a teenager, my resolution was, I'm going to try to save some lives by educating other people, because by education, I became aware of the problem.
00:04:36.000And so that led me to, when I got to UCLA, doing investigative reporting, because I thought, again, I have to educate my fellow students here.
00:04:44.000There's so much misinformation about abortion.
00:04:53.000So why don't we talk about some of your early research over at UCLA, the kind of undercover stuff that you were doing, because you really did pioneer this space.
00:05:00.000I mean, you were doing some of this stuff at the same time that James O'Keefe was doing stuff uncovering ACORN, so sort of the early days of undercover conservative citizen journalism.
00:05:08.000So what exactly was it that you were doing?
00:05:11.000So when I got to UCLA, I started a newspaper magazine on campus, which was meant to compete with the Daily Brew, in which I wrote a couple op-eds for.
00:05:19.000I don't know if you ever wrote for them.
00:05:29.000But the point was, it was very pro-abortion.
00:05:31.000The faculty, the administration, as you may remember, it's all very pro-abortion.
00:05:35.000I mean, you can't find a pro-life professor on campus.
00:05:38.000They're going to be pushing their politics in the classroom.
00:05:40.000And a lot of the students I thought were actually more open-minded.
00:05:43.000They just weren't getting any other information.
00:05:45.000And this was right when social media was just starting.
00:05:47.000So YouTube had just launched Facebook.
00:05:49.000We just had our new UCLA Facebook accounts.
00:05:51.000And so there was finally a way to get other information out that's not the typical traditional media or the typical, you know, what you're learning in the classroom.
00:06:00.000And so starting this magazine, I realized I'm going to do independent reporting because no one's talking about what's happening to pregnant students at UCLA because girls were getting pregnant.
00:06:10.000At our health center, there were over a thousand pregnancy tests that were done in one year, in the last reported year.
00:06:17.000But I never saw a pregnant girl on campus.
00:06:30.000Maybe just doing my own investigative work.
00:06:33.000And so my first investigation was actually of our campus health center, the Arthur Ashe Health and Wellness Center, right in the middle of Bruin Walk.
00:06:40.000And I just went in posing as Lila, saying I was, you know, 18, a freshman, which I was, but saying, I think I might be pregnant.
00:06:47.000And the head nurse at UCLA sits me down, and this is the woman that she saw all the students who might be pregnant who were taking pregnancy tests.
00:06:55.000And she looks me in the eyes and she says, point blank, UCLA doesn't support women who are pregnant or help them.
00:07:01.000And she said, but we have two doctors you can see.
00:07:03.000You can pick which one for two different kinds of abortion procedures.
00:07:07.000And when I asked her about other options, I said, well, what about, you know, are there other options for me besides abortion?
00:07:13.000She said that adoption would be like giving away a present.
00:07:16.000She said that being pregnant in class would be embarrassing for me and my fellow classmates because I'd have to use the bathroom, and it was just not worth it, and so I should go the route and get a UCLA doctor to do an abortion on me.
00:07:28.000So it was very crystal clear immediately why there's no pregnant girls on campus, because despite UCLA being all about your choices and empowerment and women can accomplish anything, we were being told point blank, you should have an abortion.
00:07:41.000I mean, that is obviously very stunning stuff.
00:07:44.000And then you proceeded to go undercover at Planned Parenthood.
00:07:46.000So why don't you talk about that a little bit?
00:07:48.000Yeah, so after the health center and reporting on that in my magazine that we launched called Advocate on campus, we also realized, okay, it's time to look at the abortion clinic clinics in Los Angeles, because this is where girls are often being sent.
00:08:18.000It's harmful to all of our familial bonds, our society.
00:08:20.000And it's harmful to the And when abortion clinics are committing these horrific acts against children, they're often not really concerned about the woman either.
00:08:30.000And I had done research showing how, I had seen research showing how sex abuse victims are often taken, or traffic victims, are taken to abortion clinics where the crime that they endured, the assault, the abuse if they're an underage girl, Often it can result in a pregnancy, and then they're taken to this abortion clinic, it's covered up by the clinic.
00:08:48.000Instead of the abortion facility reporting it to authorities the way they're required to do by law.
00:08:55.000And so I came across a study done by Mark Crutcher, this group called Life Dynamics out of Texas, this kind of older guard pro-life group, but they called over 800 Planned Parenthood facilities and found that in over 90% of them, And they had a girl posing as an underage girl on the phone, 13 years old, in over 90% of 800 Planned Parenthood clinics at the time.
00:09:15.000They told who they thought was a 13-year-old girl that they had a don't ask, don't tell policy on sex abuse.
00:09:20.000Meaning she could come in, if she was pregnant, the abuser could even take her and the older boyfriend, and they wouldn't do anything about the abuse.
00:09:28.000And they weren't reported, which they're required by law to do in virtually every state.
00:09:31.000So reading this, reading the stories of actual girls who had been through this and then they later on sued Planned Parenthood or there were criminal cases, I was very moved by that.
00:09:41.000I thought, wow, women—children are being killed and women are being harmed.
00:09:47.000And so that led me to go undercover, posing as an underage girl, saying that I was a victim of abuse, had a much older boyfriend, statutory rape.
00:09:54.000And instead of reporting it, in the first two Los Angeles Planned Parenthood clinics I went into, both of them told me that I could lie about my age in the paperwork, they wouldn't report it, and they offered to give me a secret abortion.
00:10:06.000That, immediately, two for two, I realized this is not just Los Angeles, this is not just bad stuff at UCLA, this is stuff happening all over the country that no one is talking about.
00:10:15.000And so that inspired that first investigative reporting and then taking it across the country.
00:10:20.000I mean, it is pretty astounding how you have uncovered all of this stuff, and sort of like the David Daleiden case, there have been so many cases where Planned Parenthood has been exposed, and the media have a vested interest in ensuring that people do not hear about the abuses that take place at places like Planned Parenthood.
00:10:35.000How do you think the media are able to get away with what really does amount to a fairly large-scale cover-up?
00:10:39.000Well, I mean, it's no surprise that the trust in the media is on an all-time low.
00:10:42.000People don't think the media is trustworthy anymore because they're not reporting stories that matter.
00:10:47.000Or they're actually covering for abusers or for people that or companies or organizations that align with their political ideology, like Planned Parenthood, like an abortion industry, but are actually doing horrific things on the daily and breaking the law.
00:11:02.000I mean, not just killing children and killing thousands of children a day, but lying to women, manipulating, breaking state laws, covering up sexual abuse.
00:11:11.000I mean, so many horrific abuses alongside that abuse of abortion.
00:11:15.000So, you know, and it's not just media.
00:11:17.000I mean, as we know, it's tech, big tech.
00:11:19.000I mean, Sheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook, just donated her second million dollars to Planned Parenthood.
00:11:24.000And you have live action has over 4 million followers online on social media.
00:11:29.000But we are dealing daily with all kinds of tech bias.
00:11:33.000So media bias is bad, but I think people at this point are like, hey, yeah, the media is biased.
00:11:40.000But it's even more devious when you have Google making the search results, if you type in abortion risks, there are all these Planned Parenthood articles saying there's no risks to abortion.
00:11:51.000Or you're looking at your social media feed on Facebook or your social media feed on Twitter and you're not seeing necessarily the facts about what abortion actually is coming from alternate voices.
00:12:02.000Instead, you're seeing stuff that corroborates or fulfills that idea of pro-abortion ideology.
00:12:09.000Well, where do you think that we stand on abortion in the country right now?
00:12:50.000I think the thing that's the most interesting is when you look at people's position on the legality of abortion.
00:12:55.000And the reality is, according to most of the recent polls, whether it's Pew or Gallup or others, the vast majority of Americans want significant abortion restrictions.
00:13:05.000So they want abortion restricted to the first trimester or banned altogether.
00:13:19.000But they think, oh, we need to compromise, right?
00:13:21.000Because they don't want to be seen as extreme.
00:13:23.000Because the moment you come out and say, I'm pro-life for all children, no matter what, Then the media says, you're crazy, you're an extremist, you're a zealot.
00:13:31.000And so most people are like, okay, well, I at least want some restrictions.
00:13:35.000But what we see every day at Live Action is when we actually educate people, when they actually know facts about fetal development, about life in the womb, the heart beating at just a little over three weeks.
00:13:45.000Brainwaves at just a little over six weeks.
00:13:47.000When they learn about how quickly that child grows, when they learn about the science, which proves conclusively this is a unique individual human life at the moment of fertilization, people become pro-life.
00:13:59.000A lot more people than you would realize it.
00:14:01.000And when they see what abortion does to that baby, when you actually learn what these abortion procedures do to starve that baby to death, whether it's through a pill in the first trimester or to tear that, suction that baby apart in the second trimester or the late first, people are shocked.
00:14:17.000And they say, wow, I can't support that.
00:14:19.000So we're seeing those minds change on the daily when we do our work at Live Action.
00:14:24.000It's like, you're not going to see a feature story on CNN about this girl who changed her mind on abortion.
00:14:29.000But little by little, I think that the tide is absolutely turning.
00:14:32.000So in a second, I want to ask you about the scientific questions surrounding abortion.
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00:15:52.000Okay, so let's talk about the science surrounding abortion.
00:15:54.000One of the things that drives me absolutely up a wall is we've now been through probably 15 or 20 minutes of this interview.
00:15:58.000You've not mentioned your religious stance once, and yet when you talk with people who are pro-choice or when you read the columns written by people who are pro-choice, Their fundamental assumption, their baseline assumption, seems to be that if you're pro-life, the reason that you're pro-life is because you're religious.
00:16:12.000So, this really leads to two questions.
00:16:16.000And two, why is it that there is such heavy crossover between people who are pro-life and people who are religious, when the science, again, should tend toward making people pro-life?
00:16:24.000Why aren't there more secular pro-lifers, in other words?
00:16:26.000Right, I think it's because of actual, literal science denial that's happening on the left, largely, even among those who say that they are We're pro-science, you know, look at climate change, look at all these things.
00:16:38.000They won't actually look and acknowledge the biological realities of what's happening with life in the womb.
00:16:44.000I mean, we deal with this all the time.
00:17:08.000And it was, like, mind-blowing for this young girl.
00:17:10.000And I said, where are you getting your information?
00:17:13.000And she said, oh, I'm just getting it from, you know, a friend that is more liberal or something like that.
00:17:17.000And I said, if you actually pick up any human biology textbook, any human biology textbook, it will tell you when life begins.
00:17:24.000It begins at the moment of fertilization.
00:17:26.000When that egg completely is transformed because of the sperm and becomes a complete DNA code for an individual human life, and all that life needs is time and nourishment to grow.
00:17:34.000So I think it's really just this crazy environment that we're in today where this basic science about the origin of human life is being hidden from people.
00:17:45.000Or because of our obsession with keeping abortion legal and defending it to the death, we are refusing to acknowledge basic scientific realities about human life.
00:17:56.000And to your second question about people who are religious who tend to be a lot more pro-life, I mean, I think that's because when you start to have any kind of a moral view of the universe—and everybody is religious in some way, even an atheist.
00:18:08.000Their religion is, I believe there's no God, absolutely, right?
00:18:21.000And what is the code by which we will live in our society?
00:18:25.000If people of most major faiths today are pro-life because they acknowledge human life has to be precious, human life has to be valuable.
00:18:33.000If we don't see the value of every single human life, then all of a sudden we enter into all kinds of injustices, And that's where human rights abuses, how they happen, because we start to dehumanize one group of the population, whether because of their sex or because of their race or because of their political background or their faith or their size, their level of development, because they're so small, they're in the womb.
00:18:59.000So, I think it makes sense, if you're religious, to be pro-life.
00:19:03.000If you're not religious, or your worldview is whatever you want it to be, if you think that human beings have human rights, you should be pro-life.
00:19:12.000One of the things that you mention when you talk about science denial, and that is completely obvious, is how the left wishes to deny the ability of people to even see ultrasound photos.
00:19:47.000And while that's not a great argument for what constitutes a human life because the look of something doesn't necessarily mean what it is, it is so perfectly obvious on its face what exactly you are looking at that it's no wonder that groups like Planned Parenthood wish to forcibly discourage people from taking a look at ultrasounds.
00:20:00.000And it's even like when you look at miscarriage.
00:20:02.000I mean, Planned Parenthood's now ex-president, Dr. Leanna Nguyen, she wrote publicly about a miscarriage that she had, and this was right before she was fired by Planned Parenthood.
00:20:12.000It was this big hullabaloo, and she's the first doctor in dozens of years that Planned Parenthood allowed to be their head, and then she wasn't pro-abortion enough for them.
00:20:19.000But she wrote this article talking about the grief she felt after her miscarriage.
00:20:23.000That same baby, that same age, can be killed legally at Planned Parenthood clinics across the country.
00:20:29.000And why is the child—you know, you have a baby shower, you're pregnant with a baby, you're expecting a baby—why, all of a sudden, it's completely illogical, is it no longer a baby, no longer a life, no longer someone to be grieved, just because you don't confer value on it as the parent or the The person making the decision.
00:20:48.000And I think the more people learn about facts about life in the womb, what abortion is, they realize it's not logical.
00:20:54.000And so to be logical, to be pro-science, to be reasonable, this is a life that deserves protection like you or like I do.
00:21:02.000So why do you think it is that the left has moved away from what seemed to be a lot safer political ground even 25 years ago, the safe, legal, and rare formulation, the idea that, sure, this is uncomfortable, sure, we're not saying that it's totally morally fine, but at the same time, there are certain people who are in need, and we wouldn't want to make it illegal, we want to make it safe for them to get an abortion.
00:21:21.000Why do you think the left has Forcibly disabused themselves of this notion.
00:21:25.000I mean now you're seeing the full-on celebrate abortion, shout your abortion, light up towers in New York pink if you're gonna legalize abortion up to a point of birth.
00:21:33.000Why do you think the left has made that radical shift?
00:21:35.000Because it is a politically bewildering shift.
00:21:38.000One of those formulations is a lot more popular than the other.
00:22:07.000They invested $30 million to try to defeat Trump last round.
00:22:10.000They're going to invest another $50 million this coming round.
00:22:13.000So the abortion lobby is a real thing, and they have a lot of power with these politicians, and they are only content with abortion through all nine months for any reason.
00:22:21.000They have no—there's no moderation when it comes to the abortion industry.
00:22:36.000And I think they're kind of realizing, wow, if we compromise, it's not too long until we might find ourself out of a job as being pro-abortion or, you know, supporting the abortion industry.
00:22:46.000Because once you say you can protect some lives, then the argument to why don't we just protect them all if they're human lives to begin with is a very strong one.
00:22:54.000So I think now they're actually being logically consistent by saying, nope, If they're in the womb, doesn't matter how old, doesn't matter for what reason, you should have license to kill.
00:23:02.000So over live action, obviously you do an enormous amount of outreach, that's what you do.
00:23:06.000And I want to ask you in just a second about what are the most effective types of outreach and what are the least effective types of outreach on this particular issue.
00:23:16.000Okay, it's made by my friends Adam Carolla and Dennis Prager.
00:23:19.000Adam, of course, is the godfather of the podcasting industry, and Dennis Prager, who is sort of a moral voice in the conservative universe, has been for decades.
00:23:29.000It's in theaters nationwide Friday, December 6th.
00:23:32.000Adam and Dennis take you on a wild ride to show you the effects of political correctness, identity politics, and cancel culture.
00:23:37.000No Safe Spaces argues that free speech is important in a free society, It shows how it's being threatened and what we can do to fight back.
00:23:45.000So if you like me, if you're a fan of Ben Shapiro, you should check out No Safe Spaces because they review my experiences at Cal State Los Angeles and that weird one over at Berkeley where the city had to spend like $600,000 on security just so I could talk about free speech.
00:23:59.000The film also features Van Jones, Jordan Peterson, Brett Weinstein, Cornel West, even President Obama.
00:24:04.000This is a film that you can take and you should take your liberal friends to see.
00:24:08.000So let's talk for a second about the effective approaches on the pro-life side versus the ineffective approaches on the pro-life side.
00:24:20.000So you've spent an awful lot of time and an awful lot of money trying to reach out to people with pro-life messages, so you probably have some good information about what is effective and what is ineffective.
00:24:29.000Why don't we start with the ineffective?
00:24:30.000What's been the least effective approach that you think people use when it comes to moving people toward a pro-life position?
00:24:37.000I mean, first of all, there's a lot of diversity.
00:24:38.000So I would say there are some really, not silver bullets, but there are some really strong arguments and approaches that work for a lot of people.
00:24:45.000But some people, it's interesting that even some of the lesser effective approaches in the pro-life movement still make a difference for some people.
00:24:53.000So I would never say stop doing what you're doing out there.
00:24:55.000Anybody doing anything for life, Lovingly, with compassion, I think is good.
00:25:01.000Whether it's very effective in my book or not, I mean, I'll choose my own strategies.
00:25:05.000So I know that's kind of like going around your question, but I would say anything that's angry or cruel I don't think is effective because you're dealing with people and a lot of wounded people.
00:25:13.000I mean, there are so many people who have been hurt by abortion.
00:25:16.000Women, men, Abortions in their history and they still are not even sure how to wrestle with it.
00:25:31.000So anytime that we get on our high horse, if we act with a judgmentalism or we're cruel or unkind in our approach, I think that can be very harmful and ineffective.
00:25:41.000So that's probably one of the least effective things I've seen.
00:25:47.000Most people in the public movement are very compassionate and many of them are there because they actually have abortion in their families or they were involved with an abortion themselves.
00:25:55.000So, and then as far as effective is concerned, when people actually learn about fetal development, development of life I mean, from the early stages.
00:26:06.000And then they actually get to see that child, see that embryo.
00:26:10.000And then they get to understand what abortion actually does to that child.
00:26:14.000We launched a series at Live Action called Abortion Procedures, which are medical animations.
00:27:04.000They actually survived the abortion attempt on their life.
00:27:06.000stories of women who chose life in really difficult circumstances.
00:27:11.000I mean, these stories are inspiring and encouraging to people.
00:27:13.000So that's a lot of the work that we do at Live Action is to tell those stories as well as show the victim and show what abortion does.
00:27:19.000So one of the issues that constantly comes up when I talk about abortion that I assume doesn't come up as much when you talk about it is I'm a man, obviously.
00:27:33.000But with that said, one of the chief arguments that's used by the pro-choice left is the idea that if you're not a woman, you don't get to speak out on this.
00:27:41.000Of course, if you're a pro-life woman, you also don't get to speak out.
00:27:42.000But why do you think this has become such a feminist nostrum, that the movement in favor of abortion is a pro-women movement, as opposed to a movement that is dedicated to the destruction of a child?
00:27:57.000Why has it become that there is such a supposed gender gap in this area?
00:28:02.000I mean, you have the sexual revolution that happened mid-century, this last century, and then you have the so-called women's rights advocates who were doing important work in the first part of the 20th century.
00:28:14.000I mean, they were making sure that we were treated equally under the law.
00:28:18.000They were making sure before that we had the right to vote.
00:28:21.000But then all of a sudden it got hijacked by this new sexual libertinism where it's now all about Not just my body, my choice, it would come later, but this idea that sex has nothing to do with children, it shouldn't have to do with commitment.
00:28:33.000And then the feminist movement then became a movement of basically playboy types, you know, saying we should be free, burn your bra, you know, sexual promiscuity.
00:28:45.000And then the result of that, too, is if we get pregnant, we have the right now, we should have the right to not have to be pregnant.
00:28:52.000And so we should have the right to end the pregnancy.
00:28:57.000So using these euphemisms, I mean, basically the right to kill.
00:29:00.000So this crazy thing happened where instead of feminism being what it was designed to be, which is make sure that we have equal treatment under the law with men and we're seen as equal partners, which we are, It became this new thing of a complete deconstruction of what it really is to be a woman, and an attack on our own dignity and our children.
00:29:20.000All of a sudden we became at war with our children.
00:29:23.000So it's absolutely crazy to me that the so-called women's rights groups today are the ones that are fighting for killing our own children, which is antithetical to every protective instinct in a woman.
00:29:36.000And the most noble instincts in a woman or a man, which is to care for those that are more dependent and care for those who are weaker.
00:29:45.000So it's really horrific what has happened.
00:29:47.000I think, deep down, it doesn't resonate with people.
00:29:50.000I mean, deep down, I think we're made to love.
00:29:55.000We're made to value children, to value sex as something more than just this thing you do whenever you want with whoever, but that it's meant for something beautiful and a lifelong bond.
00:30:04.000The anti-messages of the sexual revolution and today's crazy, off-the-reservation feminism, which isn't the authentic, original feminism, I think people are not really comfortable with it deep down.
00:30:16.000And the more you educate about what true feminism was designed to be, and the beauty of motherhood, and the dignity of women, you talk about these things, I think it changes it for a lot of people.
00:30:26.000I mean, that's the part that's astonishing to me.
00:30:28.000So as I mentioned before when I was pregnant, again, this is baby number three.
00:30:32.000And she's also, as everyone who listens to the show knows, a doctor.
00:30:37.000And if you asked her what made her most fulfilled, there is no question which one of those is more important to her.
00:30:42.000And this is somebody who has spent a decade becoming a doctor so that she can serve other people and have what I think is a pretty important career.
00:30:49.000And if you ask her which one of the Being a mother and carrying a child, does that make her feel more fulfilled?
00:30:55.000Or going to a doctor's office and taking care of patients?
00:31:00.000Now, as a human being, maybe being a doctor is very fulfilling for her, but I think that for pretty much anybody, being a parent is the most fulfilling thing that you're going to do.
00:31:09.000It's going to be the most fulfilling thing that you do in your life.
00:31:11.000But beyond that, the reduction of womanhood down to quote-unquote personhood is really astonishing because, as I've said before, It's amazing to me why women who have a superpower, right?
00:31:22.000They have a superpower to create another human being that comes directly from their body and nourish that human being.
00:31:27.000And to say that that is the least part of what I do, that part doesn't matter at all.
00:31:30.000The part that I do that matters is working 2,200 billable hours at a law firm or going to medical school, just like the dudes do.
00:31:39.000But to take the part of you that is the most unique to your sex and then discard that or treat that as though that is a downside to who you are, it's antithetical to what womanhood is.
00:31:53.000And so much of today's society is saying a woman's value is in what she can achieve, how she can succeed, how she can compete, and the kind of wealth she can generate or the success that she can achieve, or in the way she appears, how attractive she is, when it's really about our relationships.
00:32:09.000I mean, At the end of life, when you're on your deathbed, it's about who did you love?
00:32:19.000And that's what people we're wired for as human beings.
00:32:22.000So a lot of the toxic feminism today is pointing us towards Basically, to choose between, say, no, you can't have family, you can't have kids, you should choose your work first, you should choose your career first, you should choose other things first.
00:32:37.000The reality is, though, if you prioritize, and for me, I put God first, husband second, my child will be second, third, will be part of, my family will be second, and my work is still incredibly important to me.
00:32:49.000I'm still gonna be writing, podcasting, doing live action, speaking, doing these things, My family will always come first.
00:32:57.000And if we can prioritize that way, both as men and women, we will be much happier.
00:33:02.000And our society will be much healthier.
00:33:04.000And there will be less of an abortion problem in the first place.
00:33:07.000Because children won't be seen then as this threat to our futures.
00:33:10.000Instead, they're seen as a beautiful part of our futures.
00:33:12.000But we have to then live a certain way.
00:33:14.000We can't just treat sex any way we want.
00:33:16.000I mean, this goes back to the way our culture sees sex.
00:33:19.000I mean, that is the root of the abortion problem, is how we see sex as a culture.
00:33:38.000And sex is meant to bond two people together and create a lifelong bond.
00:33:42.000So if we can restore sex to its proper context in our society, To see it as a lifelong bond between two people who choose each other, who sacrifice for each other, i.e.
00:33:50.000a marriage, who commit to each other, and who are open to children, because that is the natural outcome, a beautiful outcome of sex.
00:33:59.000So I think that's part of the solution to the crazy off-the-road we've gone with feminism and so many of the other excesses today.
00:34:07.000I mean, at the same time, it feels like that is the area of pushback where you get it the strongest from the left.
00:34:11.000I mean, on the biology point, it's very difficult for the left to push back on that because the biology is what the biology is.
00:34:16.000But when it comes to the perspective on sex, that's where the left kind of holds up his hand and they say, OK, so basically you're saying either I have to be a pro-life prude or I have to be a pro-choice person who has a good time and lives my life.
00:34:28.000They're not even having a good time, though.
00:34:30.000I mean, The Atlantic just did this whole series of pieces last year about how people are not having a good time sexually.
00:34:35.000They're having less sex, their sex is less happy, and there's all these studies being done about how people who are married and are in lifelong, committed relationships, and they go to a religious service once a week, those women actually are the happiest and have the most fulfilled sex lives.
00:34:51.000So there's a lot of research, and the research has been around for decades, actually.
00:34:55.000That shows if you want to be happy, if you want to feel fulfilled sexually and in the rest of your life, then you should marry the love of your life, date them, you know, take time to get to know them before having sex with them, commit to them for life, and have a family with them.
00:35:09.000I mean, it sounds pretty—it's not rocket science, but it's seen as so crazy today because there are real forces that are dark forces, I think, in our society, which are ultimately not leading people to happiness.
00:35:22.000They're leading people to a lot of grief.
00:35:24.000Well, this is one of the areas where my own prudishness tends to bite me, simply because... It's not prudish!
00:35:30.000Listen, I don't think it's prudish either.
00:35:32.000I have a very fulfilling, wonderful life with my wife, but the fact is that if you promote the idea of monogamy, and that the ideal, and not everyone's going to meet it, but the ideal is virginity until marriage, and if you don't meet that, you know, so be it.
00:35:44.000People sin, that's what life is about.
00:35:48.000You don't have to—just because you've lived a certain way in the past, you've had, let's say, 100 sexual partners, whatever, you don't have to keep doing that.
00:37:52.000You have the Me Too movement where women are saying, oh my gosh, this whole objectification Sex, have it at your pleasure, however you want it, that's not making people happy either, because then the excess of that is men mistreating women, and then women saying, wait a minute, it's a hard stop, this is not serving us, and we have the whole Me Too movement.
00:38:09.000So, I think everyone knows deep down this is not working, this whole sexual libertinism is not working, and they are deep down longing for commitment and for belonging.
00:38:21.000I do wonder whether the movement toward libertinism, despite the fact that, as you say, the polls are showing deep unhappiness in American society, is really rooted as a backlash against religion.
00:38:31.000That the idea of monogamy and the idea of sexual commitment, because these were so deeply tied into Judeo-Christian values historically, that the backlash to that Has led people to embrace positions that are untenable and to stick to those positions even if those positions make people unhappy because better that we should stick with the point that Judeo-Christian religion is wrong and fundamentally flawed than to acknowledge that even if I don't believe in the religious aspects of this, maybe they were right on this particular point.
00:39:06.000I think that evil wants to just destroy.
00:39:09.000Destroy good, destroy love, destroy human beings.
00:39:13.000And so a lot of the ideologies today that are very destructive in practice, whether it's the pro-abortion ideology or it's this new form of feminism, which is men are, you know, women don't, our motherhood is not, doesn't matter.
00:39:25.000We can just discard it at will and we shouldn't value life or value our femininity.
00:39:30.000I mean, these things I think are Extremely.
00:39:46.000But until we acknowledge what is right and what is wrong, until we try to live our lives in a way that sees people for the dignity that they have, As long as we're on religion, let's talk a little bit about your religious background.
00:39:58.000to fall over ourselves and hurt each other as well as ourselves.
00:40:02.000As long as we're on religion, let's talk a little about your religious background.
00:40:39.000It's the operating beliefs that inform all their decisions.
00:40:43.000And I ended up at UCLA, actually, interestingly.
00:40:46.000I found myself just believing, okay, Christianity I think is true.
00:40:50.000I think Christ, when he said he was the way, the truth, and the life, he was correct.
00:40:54.000And his sacrifice was necessary because of evil, because of our sin and our woundedness.
00:40:59.000What do we do to reconcile the fact that God is good and he made creation for good, but there's so much evil?
00:41:04.000Well, he sent his only son to die for us, so I came to believe that.
00:41:08.000And then my next question was, okay, how do I live the Christian life?
00:41:12.000What does it mean to actually be a Christian today?
00:41:14.000Yes, you can say I believe in Jesus, I believe the Bible is an incredibly important source of wisdom and it's God's word, but how do I actually live a Christian life?
00:41:23.000And that brought me into the Catholic Church, because after doing a lot of research and study, I saw 2,000 years of church history and apostolic succession, so the practices and the teachings of Christ.
00:41:35.000When he came, which are recorded in the Bible, and then the traditions of the early church, the way they lived, the way they did Eucharist, communion, receiving Jesus' body, blood, soul, and divinity in communion, the way that they did baptism.
00:41:48.000There's an unbroken line of tradition from the beginning and unbroken line of the priesthood from the beginning from Christ when he established it to today, which has been kept by the Catholic Church.
00:41:59.000So, as a student at UCLA, I came into the Catholic Church and it's been an incredibly, incredible gift and blessing to get to receive Jesus in the Eucharist and to get to be a part of His Church.
00:42:10.000So, to shift rather radically, I want to ask you about the legislative strategy that you think that people ought to be pursuing with regard to the pro-life movement.
00:42:17.000So, we've seen a couple of different strategies that have been pursued.
00:42:19.000One is a sort of gradualist strategy, which is you gradually Push back the time that abortion is legal further and further back, so now it's, you know, heartbeat or earlier.
00:42:30.000And then you've seen these sort of go for broke, let's just ban this thing outright, as you've seen in Georgia, the notion that from point of fertilization that abortion ought to be illegal.
00:42:39.000Where do you stand on that strategic conflict, or do you think that it even matters?
00:42:43.000Well, first of all, the pro-life movement has been doing the kind of secondary steps or the intermediate steps for like 40 plus years, and it hasn't worked.
00:42:51.000We get some of the most extreme abortion extremism that we've seen in decades, like what just happened in New York, them celebrating nine months abortion through all nine months.
00:42:59.000And you still have eight, nine states which are pro-abortion through all nine months, allowing legal abortion through all nine months.
00:43:04.000So that intermediate kind of going halfway has not been working strategically.
00:43:10.000I mean, in the game of politics, you have the pro-abortion side, which unfortunately is the Democratic Party right now, which is abortion through all nine months.
00:43:47.000First of all, stop the taxpayer funding of abortion, the abortion industry.
00:43:51.000I mean, that's a pretty clear no-brainer.
00:43:53.000We're still funding Planned Parenthood, hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
00:43:56.000Stop funding any abortion facility or any group that's committing abortions, period.
00:44:03.000And then number two, complete legal protection.
00:44:05.000If we're going to be logically consistent, if we're going to be just, To our fellow human beings, we need to ensure complete legal protection for every single child.
00:44:16.000And we need to stop playing this game that some abortions are good, some abortions are okay, women are benefited by abortions, this game that we keep playing as a society because the reality is abortion is always wrong.
00:44:26.000It's always the intentional taking of an innocent human life and that's never justified.
00:44:30.000So, I think the right strategy is saying we want complete legal protection.
00:44:34.000Live Action certainly celebrates any time any pro-life thing happens or is passed, but if we're designing the political strategy, it's complete defunding of the abortion industry from taxpayers.
00:44:47.000And number two, complete legal protection.
00:44:49.000Okay, so now I want to ask you some of the pro-choice arguments that I'm sure that you get the most, so that folks can understand what the counter-argument is.
00:44:56.000So, pro-choice argument that I've been hearing a lot lately is, you on the pro-life side, you suggest that abortion is the killing of a human being, and yet when it comes to punishment, you're only interested in punishing abortion doctors.
00:45:18.000Well, I think it's a—first of all, I think it's a no-brainer to punish the doctors.
00:45:23.000I mean, they're the ones who are actually killing the child, killing that human life and profiting from it.
00:45:27.000So absolutely criminalizing the practice, the committing of abortions.
00:45:31.000I think when it comes into the question of should there be penalties for the mother, again, there's a couple things that have to go into play.
00:45:36.000First of all, being logically consistent, if you're going to kill, commit infanticide of your one-year-old or your six-month-old, Should there be penalties then if you're committing infanticide of your baby just weeks before he or she is going to be born?
00:45:51.000And I think that each state and each community needs to look at, okay, what penalties make sense and take into account all of the mitigating factors, like you do with any case where you're dealing with the intentional killing of a human life.
00:46:04.000Mitigating factors that include pressure and coercion.
00:46:06.000Women that are facing abortion, or wanting to have an abortion, maybe because they're being pressured, or they're being forced into it, or they're not in their right mind because they're feeling so much stress or so much anxiety.
00:46:19.000So I think those factors need to be considered, and then the primary penalty should be on the abortionist.
00:46:25.000So, pro-choice question number two, and that is, why do you pro-lifers conflate all of the forms of human life?
00:46:32.000Why is it important to protect from point of fertilization when you have a single-cell embryo as opposed to point of consciousness or as opposed to point at which the baby can live viably outside the womb?
00:46:44.000Why do you use language like you're killing human babies when what you're actually killing is a single-celled embryo?
00:46:52.000And you can say, OK, I'm only going to call a baby a baby once they're born.
00:46:55.000You can put the word baby where you want to put it.
00:46:58.000But the fact is, it's a unique individual human life.
00:47:01.000And if you start to say, like, consciousness, or your ability to breathe, or your ability to—I mean, there's some ethicists like Peter Singer who say, actually, The infant is not considered a full human being because their brain isn't as developed as they will be in six months or a year.
00:47:17.000So you can play that game where basically your abilities as a human or how developed you are as a human should equal your humanity and your legal protection.
00:47:27.000But I'm not interested in playing games like that because I think all human beings should have human rights, regardless of how developed they are.
00:47:34.000A toddler is far less developed than an adult.
00:47:37.000A newborn is far less developed than a toddler, and an embryo is far less developed than a newborn.
00:47:45.000And so I think it comes down to, do you want to live in a society where your abilities or your level of development is really whether or not you get legal protection?
00:47:54.000You're opening the door to a lot of human rights abuses if you want to live in that society.
00:47:58.000Okay, the next pro-choice argument that I've heard a lot, I'm sure you've heard it too, is the argument that when a woman consents to sex and it produces a child that is different than when a woman does not consent to sex and that produces a child.
00:48:11.000Incest and rape would be the example here.
00:48:13.000So, in that particular case, then you'd spoken earlier about how the predictable effect of sex is that it's going to create a baby, that's just one of the things that comes along with sex.
00:48:21.000Well, if the woman didn't consent to the sex and now she is forced to And it's a great question, because how horrific is rape?
00:48:32.000And that's one of the reasons, I mean, not just violating that woman's body, but that you are going against her will and against her consent, and that could potentially create a life.
00:48:42.000So it's a complete violation of everything that is good.
00:48:45.000And women who are victims of rape, or girls who are victims of rape, they deserve our support, our care, and our advocacy.
00:48:52.000If a new human life—and that abuser needs to be completely punished to the fullest extent of the law possible—but if a new human life is created from an act of violence, you're now dealing with an innocent third party.
00:49:05.000You're dealing with a child who didn't get to decide how she or she was conceived, and now it's up to us in our society to come alongside and support and help that woman because Ending that child's life, killing that child, would be unjust for that child.
00:49:29.000You can't kill them for being rapists.
00:49:31.000Why would we give the death penalty to an innocent child?
00:49:34.000Another pro-choice argument that you hear frequently is what I think is sort of a misdirect, which is, OK, so you guys care a lot about babies before they're born, but as soon as the babies are born, you guys don't care at all.
00:49:43.000You're not talking about resources for babies after they're born.
00:49:46.000So why are you so concerned about babies before they're born, other than you just want to put a burden on a woman?
00:49:50.000Yeah, I mean, we hear this a lot and it makes me laugh because basically most of the pro-life movement is involved with taking care of babies before and after they're born.
00:49:58.000I mean, you actually get to know the pro-life movement and there's thousands of these pregnancy resource centers that are, yes, helping women who are pregnant and then they're helping women with their infants and their babies and their parenting classes and relationship classes.
00:50:09.000They're trying to create healthy families.
00:50:11.000So most of the product movement's focus is families and those bonds of love between parents and children, both when they're in the womb and they're outside of the womb.
00:50:19.000And I know I speak at a lot of pregnancy resource centers, events.
00:50:23.000We've volunteered at them over the years.
00:50:25.000And they're doing that daily quiet work of caring for mom and baby and family and baby, both when the baby's in the womb and when the baby's newborn.
00:50:34.000So there's a lot of work being done in that space.
00:50:37.000Some of the most prolific adopters and foster families are pro-life families.
00:50:42.000I know so many of them, and it's something that is just a beautiful part of the pro-life movement that's underreported.
00:50:47.000So I have trouble finding that pro-life person who just cares about the baby before they're born.
00:50:52.000The final pro-choice argument that you hear a lot is, aren't you putting an insuperable burden on women who are poor, particularly women of color?
00:51:00.000The upper class white women will always be able to go get their abortion, they'll always be able to lead the economic life that they want, but poor black women living in inner cities are not going to be able to do that unless they are able to dispose of an early pregnancy that they didn't want in the first place.
00:51:14.000I mean, I think that's a big fallacy, because an abortion—having a dead baby now in your history—doesn't make you rich, doesn't make you successful, doesn't make you well-educated.
00:51:23.000If you were the victim of a horrific rape, it doesn't take away the trauma of that rape.
00:51:27.000So to say that poor women or lower-income women or women of a certain ethnic background are served by abortion—no, abortion just ends the life of your child, and then it leaves you in the exact same situation you were in before.
00:51:39.000I think the solution is to say, okay, let's love them both.
00:51:43.000Let's focus on, in our communities, through our churches, through our whatever system of governance we may have locally, do our best to elevate people.
00:51:52.000Mothers and their children, care for both of them.
00:51:56.000And that's a lot of the work that I see day in, day out in the pro-life movement.
00:51:59.000So, number one, I'll ask you relationship advice, even though you don't have a kid yet, and once you have a kid, it's completely going to be... You should be giving me the relationship advice.
00:52:23.000So when you are single, basically your happiness, you get up to like a seven, and your sadness, you get down to like a zero, and then you get married, and your happiness goes up to like a ten, and your sadness goes down to a negative ten because if something bad happens to your spouse, then you feel that also, so you've doubled your opportunity for risk.
00:52:37.000And then once you have children, all limits are removed on both ends.
00:52:39.000The happiest things that will ever happen to you are things that happen with your kids.
00:52:42.000The worst things that will ever happen to you are things that happen with your children.
00:52:45.000So I'm sort of asking you for relationship advice before you've experienced the full gamut of the relationship.
00:52:51.000But with that said, how long have you been married at this point?
00:53:02.000I feel like I've been through a lot of different iterations of dating culture and what's going on with dating and I think the key thing, a couple key principles that I feel very passionate about when it comes to dating is first of all, What's the purpose?
00:53:21.000I think a lot of people today, they don't have a clear end in sight with dating.
00:53:24.000It's kind of a cultural thing that they do and then it becomes maybe hooking up or it just kind of becomes this almost side part of their life that's not really focused.
00:53:33.000Are you dating because you actually want to prepare to be in a family, to have a spouse?
00:53:37.000Are you looking for someone that you would actually want to raise a family with and be a lifelong partner to?
00:53:45.000What's the purpose behind your whole dating And then the second thing is, are you trying to become the kind of person that you would want to be with lifelong?
00:53:54.000You know, are you of the caliber of person yourself?
00:53:57.000And the kind of person that you're looking for, are they the kind of caliber that you would want to be with lifelong and raise a family with?
00:54:03.000So it's really a, I think it's really, I mean it sounds maybe heavy, but it's like a mature approach to dating.
00:54:09.000And yeah, dating can be fun and interesting and all these things, but it really needs to be The clarity needs to, the question needs to be clarified.
00:55:02.000And I know that we're going to have to keep working at it the rest of our life, but if you're willing to do the work, it is incredibly beautiful.
00:55:08.000And if you're careful about who you choose, it can be incredibly beautiful.
00:55:11.000Well, that of course I totally agree with.
00:55:13.000I always urge people, the first thing you look for in somebody is values because 50 years from now you're both going to be ugly.
00:56:52.000Okay, so looking forward to motherhood, what are the things that you are looking forward to and the things that you are not looking forward to?
00:56:57.000Well, I'm looking forward to actually having this baby outside of me because I'm nine months pregnant and so we're almost done.
00:57:02.000We made it, we made it, we made it there.
00:57:05.000And I'm looking, I don't know, I mean, it's already been a beautiful experience to even be pregnant and have this new little boy in my life.
00:57:11.000And yeah, I'm just looking forward to it.
00:57:24.000I mean, I think being a mom, I'm excited to have the opportunity to get to, first of all, just be with a baby and have my own baby to hold and kiss and cuddle because I love babies.
00:57:33.000Whenever I see someone's baby, I'm like, your baby's so cute.
00:57:36.000And just the opportunity to get to form another human being, I mean, that's such an incredible responsibility and privilege.
00:57:42.000And it makes me want to be a better person.
00:57:44.000I already wanted to be a better person when I was trying to find my future spouse.
00:57:48.000When we got married, I'm like, I want to be a good person for you.
00:57:50.000Now it's like, okay, I want to be the best person I can be for this child.
00:58:05.000And I'm more grateful every day that I married him because I'm like, I got such an excellent man who's very focused on, I want to be a good father, be a good husband.
00:58:30.000But there are good people out there, and the more you try to be that good person, too, to try to be your best, you will attract people who share those values and who are those good people, too.
00:58:40.000So he's very excited, and we're excited to have one, and then hopefully have several more.
00:58:45.000Yeah, you have eight kids in your family?
00:58:46.000I'm one of eight, and he's one of eight.
00:58:48.000So we've got a lot of siblings, 14 siblings between the two of us.
01:00:13.000So the trajectory of Live Action is to continue to lead an increasingly global movement to get people of every background, every country to be pro-life and to live that pro-life ethic in their lives personally as well as politically.
01:00:28.000If they can vote, take it to the voting booth, that they can change public policy, make their countries pro-life too.
01:00:34.000So the way we do that is through mostly digital outreach and then activism.
01:00:38.000And we're just getting started in many ways because, yeah, we have 4 million people following us online, but we need 40 million people.
01:00:44.000The United States is a big country, and then there's beyond the United States.
01:00:47.000So we've got tremendous work cut out for us.
01:00:49.000We want to completely change culture on abortion, the way people see children, the way people see abortion, and then, of course, as well, impact public policy.
01:00:58.000Alongside that, I feel very strongly that a lot of work needs to be done, Ben, on educating about these other things, some of the stuff we've been talking about—sex, relationships, marriage, family.
01:01:10.000Faith, what our beliefs are as human beings, what our purpose is, because the problem of abortion is the consequence of a lot of other things that have gone wrong.
01:01:20.000We don't have almost a million abortions in this country because of some random happenstance.
01:01:25.000It's because a lot of other things have broken down in our relationships with each other, in our families, in the way we see even ourselves and our own value.
01:01:33.000And so I'm very passionate about, alongside live action, doing creative projects, whether it's writing books or doing podcasts or things like that, to educate about relationships and about what life is all about and how to be healthier, happier people.
01:01:46.000Because those things, if we can get people to see themselves as having value, live strong, loving, lifelong bonds in marriages, see children as gifts and not threats, see their own God-given purpose and identity, I think that is the best antidote to abortion.
01:02:02.000So in one second, I want to ask you the final question, which is going to be to tell us the story that is most memorable to you about convincing somebody to be pro-life.
01:02:11.000But if you want to hear Lila Rose's answer, you have to be a Daily Wire subscriber to Subscribe, head on over to dailywire.com, click the subscribe button and you can hear the end of our conversation over there.
01:02:19.000Lila, thank you so much for coming by.
01:02:21.000Really appreciate the work that you're doing.