The Ben Shapiro Show - MORE TRUMP WINNING: NPR CEO IMPLODES, MS-13 Head ARRESTED

00:00:00.000 Tons of news to get to today here on the Ben Shapiro Show.

00:00:02.000 We're going to get to the NPR CEO completely melting down on Capitol Hill.

00:00:07.000 We'll get to the Trump administration capturing the head of MS-13 in the United States.

00:00:11.000 We'll get to a Daily Wire breaking story about waste, fraud, and abuse uncovered inside the federal government.

00:00:16.000 And episode four of the Case for Derek Schoen.

00:00:19.000 So tons of stuff happening here on the show today.

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00:00:44.000 So yesterday, there was a big hearing on the Hill involving the heads of NPR and PBS, both of which are, in fact, publicly funded.

00:00:54.000 Well, I asked my friend Perplexity, which is, of course, the sponsor of the show, how much money we, the U.S. taxpayers, spend on PBS and NPR every year.

00:01:03.000 Apparently, according to Perplexity, the U.S. taxpayer spends approximately $535 million annually on NPR and PBS through federal funding to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

00:01:12.000 Over the last decade, taxpayers have spent about $5.35 billion on these outlets.

00:01:18.000 They have very broad listenership.

00:01:20.000 These are propagandistic outlets that have huge listenership.

00:01:23.000 According to Perplexity, in 2022, NPR had about 23.5 million average weekly listeners for its terrestrial broadcast programming. 0.98

00:01:30.000 And NPR, of course, is just trash stacked atop trash. 0.65

00:01:34.000 It is a left-wing agitprop organization that puts out sort of modulated voices with well-produced music and segments. 0.97

00:01:42.000 Sounds very easy to listen to, and it turns out that it's just Noam Chomsky propaganda.

00:01:46.000 Meanwhile, PBS NewsHour attracted about 882,000 viewers on average in 2022, which means that about 57 million viewers tuned in to PBS's content during any given month in 2022.

00:01:59.000 So, again, these are large numbers.

00:02:01.000 67%, apparently, of all U.S. TV households.

00:02:04.000 Over 160 million people tuned in to PBS member stations over the course of a year.

00:02:08.000 Now, that is a decline over the course of time.

00:02:10.000 However, these are big numbers.

00:02:12.000 They are sponsored by you, and they are producing left-wing propaganda.

00:02:15.000 The hearings were led by subcommittee chair Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, who is grilling NPR CEO Catherine Marr and PBS President Paula Kerger, suggesting that they were both presiding over publicly funded news organizations that hate the right wing, which is absolutely 100% true.

00:02:33.000 Representative James Comer of Kentucky said people who listen to NPR are totally misinformed.

00:02:36.000 I have a problem with that because you get federal funding.

00:02:39.000 That, of course, is 100% true.

00:02:42.000 And NPR had no excuse for this.

00:02:44.000 NPR could not explain why they are so biased to the left.

00:02:47.000 They couldn't explain why they should receive taxpayer dollars if, in fact, they only are a propaganda outlet for the Democratic Party, which is 100% true. 1.00

00:02:54.000 Catherine Maher was asked yesterday, while she was on the Hill, this is the CEO of NPR, about her editorial board, which involves 87, there are 87 people on her editorial board.

00:03:03.000 The number of Republicans on that editorial board?

00:03:07.000 Zero. Zero.

00:03:08.000 Here she was being grilled by Representative Timmons.

00:03:11.000 Let's talk about the newsroom.

00:03:13.000 You have 87 registered Democrats, not a single Republican in your editor boards.

00:03:18.000 I mean, how does that work to give us the perception that you're doing your job of actually delivering unbiased information?

00:03:25.000 I would agree with you that that number is a concern if it is accurate.

00:03:28.000 I do believe that we need to have journalists who represent the full breadth of the American society so that we can report well for all Americans.

00:03:37.000 Well, the problem is that you actually don't believe that.

00:03:39.000 If you believed that, you would have done something about it.

00:03:41.000 87 to 0 is not exactly an even-handed examination of the news.

00:03:46.000 If you want to be an opinion journalism outlet like we are here at The Daily Wire, admit your biases openly, do it.

00:03:50.000 We also receive zero taxpayer dollars.

00:03:53.000 That is not a thing that we do here at Daily Wire.

00:03:54.000 We are not living off your taxpayer dollars.

00:03:56.000 We have advertisers, we have subscribers, we have members, all of those things.

00:04:00.000 But that's not NPR.

00:04:01.000 NPR does receive taxpayer dollars, which is why Catherine Maher was on the Hill being grilled. 0.95

00:04:06.000 Then she ended up being humiliated by Representative Brandon Gill out of Texas. 0.53

00:04:10.000 It was a pretty amazing exchange.

00:04:12.000 Here was Brandon Gill grilling her about her own political beliefs and Maher just openly lying about them on the floor of Congress here.

00:04:19.000 Do you believe that America is addicted to white supremacy?

00:04:24.000 I believe that I tweeted that, and as I've said earlier, I believe much of my thinking has evolved over the last half decade.

00:04:31.000 It has evolved.

00:04:32.000 Why did you tweet that?

00:04:33.000 I don't recall the exact context, sir, so I wouldn't be able to say.

00:04:37.000 Okay. Do you believe that America believes in black plunder and white democracy? 0.96

00:04:42.000 I don't believe that, sir.

00:04:45.000 You tweeted that in reference to a book you were reading at the time, apparently, The Case for Reparations.

00:04:51.000 I don't think I've ever read that book, sir.

00:04:54.000 You tweeted about it.

00:04:55.000 You said you took a day off to fully read The Case for Reparations.

00:05:00.000 You put that on Twitter in January of 2020.

00:05:03.000 Apologies, I don't recall that I did.

00:05:05.000 No doubt that your tweet there is correct, but I don't recall that.

00:05:10.000 Do you believe that white people inherently feel superior to other races?

00:05:15.000 I do not.

00:05:15.000 You tweeted something to that effect.

00:05:18.000 You said, I grew up feeling superior.

00:05:20.000 How white of me?

00:05:22.000 Why did you tweet that?

00:05:23.000 I think I was probably reflecting on what it was to grow up in an environment where I had lots of advantages.

00:05:34.000 Very rough there for Catherine Marr.

00:05:36.000 And it continued to be rough throughout the entire day.

00:05:39.000 Representative Jim Jordan, out of Ohio, friend of the program, he also humiliated Catherine Marr.

00:05:43.000 It was basically just a series of dunks on Catherine Marr in Congress yesterday.

00:05:47.000 Is NPR biased?

00:05:50.000 Congressman, I have never seen any instance of political bias determining editorial decisions, no.

00:05:57.000 Well, Mr. Berliner, in his...

00:06:01.000 Story last year wrote, in the D.C. area, editorial positions at NPR, he said he found 87 registered Democrats, zero Republicans.

00:06:14.000 Is that accurate?

00:06:15.000 We do not track the numbers or the voter registration, but I find that concerning.

00:06:20.000 Was award-winning journalist who worked 25 years at NPR?

00:06:23.000 Mr. Berliner, was he lying when he wrote that?

00:06:25.000 I am not presuming such.

00:06:27.000 I just don't have...

00:06:28.000 We don't track that information about our journalists.

00:06:30.000 87 to 0?

00:06:32.000 And you're not biased?

00:06:33.000 I think that is concerning if those numbers are accurate.

00:06:37.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:06:38.000 There's no bias over at NPR.

00:06:40.000 And Jim Jordan there is referencing a piece by Uri Berliner about the bias at NPR that he put out at the Free Press just a few months ago.

00:06:48.000 We went through it.

00:06:49.000 It was back in April of 2024.

00:06:51.000 The title of the piece was, I've been at NPR for 25 years.

00:06:54.000 Here's how we lost America's trust.

00:06:56.000 And Uri Berliner, who again, was in fact a veteran at the public radio institution, acknowledged the massive bias.

00:07:05.000 Quote, it's true NPR has always had a liberal bent.

00:07:07.000 But during most of my tenure here, an open-minded curious culture prevailed.

00:07:10.000 In recent years, however, that has changed.

00:07:12.000 Today, those who listen to NPR or read its coverage online find something different.

00:07:15.000 The distilled worldview of a very small segment of the U.S. population.

00:07:19.000 And then he goes through in detail what changed inside NPR.

00:07:23.000 Well, again, the windmill jams on Catherine Maher did not stop.

00:07:27.000 Representative Tim Burchett out of Tennessee also went after Catherine Maher. 0.98

00:07:31.000 Let me ask you, why did you call President Trump a fascist and a deranged racist sociopath in 2020? 0.89

00:07:38.000 Congressman, I appreciate the opportunity to address this. 0.95

00:07:41.000 I regret those tweets.

00:07:42.000 I would not tweet them again today.

00:07:44.000 They represented a time where I was reflecting on something that I believe that the president had said rather than who he is.

00:07:51.000 I don't presume that anyone is a racist.

00:07:53.000 You don't believe anyone is a racist?

00:07:55.000 I don't start by presuming anyone is a racist.

00:08:00.000 That's weird because, again, you have said things along.

00:08:05.000 And this is entirely the game that NPR has been playing for literally decades.

00:08:08.000 They say something that is overtly to the left, and then when called upon it, they say, well, I didn't mean that, or you're just missing the context.

00:08:14.000 Why is it that every single error NPR has ever made is in one direction?

00:08:18.000 Literally every, it's amazing.

00:08:20.000 Including, for example, NPR's decision not to cover at all the Hunter Biden laptop story in the run-up to the 2020 election.

00:08:26.000 You remember this.

00:08:28.000 NPR overtly said, we will not cover this because we do not think it is of importance.

00:08:32.000 Which, of course, is insane since there was a ton of information on there that was of high importance to American voters.

00:08:37.000 Here is Mar now admitting that they should have covered the story.

00:08:39.000 How about this story?

00:08:41.000 October 2020, the New York Post had the Hunter Biden laptop story.

00:08:45.000 And one of those editors, I guess one of those 87 Democrat editors, Said this, we don't want to waste our time on stories that are not really stories.

00:08:55.000 We don't want to waste the listeners' and readers' time on stories that are just pure distractions.

00:09:00.000 Was that a pure distraction story?

00:09:02.000 Our current editorial leadership believes that that was a mistake, as do I. Yeah, the whole country knows that was a mistake.

00:09:08.000 Well, yes, it wasn't just Catherine Maher who had a rough time of it. 0.99

00:09:13.000 PBS boss Paula Kerger, she was out on the Hill as well, and she was Trying to explain there is nothing more American than PBS.

00:09:20.000 And of course, the example that people will use here is Mr. Rogers or Sesame Street, both of which, by the way, are perfectly capable of operating on their own in a for-profit environment.

00:09:29.000 And clearly capable of operating in a for-profit environment.

00:09:32.000 These are two of the most profitable brands probably ever.

00:09:35.000 The idea that you require public broadcasting in order to somehow get Sesame Street on the air is ridiculous on its face.

00:09:41.000 But here is PBS trying to grasp that public money as hard as it can.

00:09:46.000 There's nothing more American than PBS.

00:09:48.000 As a membership organization, our local service is at the heart of our work.

00:09:53.000 Our job at PBS is to support our stations so that local stations can serve their communities.

00:09:59.000 We've been proudly fulfilling our mission for nearly 60 years using the public airwaves and other technologies to help educate, engage, and inspire the American people.

00:10:11.000 Well, what you've also done is promote an enormous amount of left-wing propaganda.

00:10:15.000 Over the years.

00:10:16.000 And again, this is a win for President Trump because of the fact that all of this is now being exposed to daylight.

00:10:22.000 The fact that we are now talking about getting rid of exorbitant spending in these areas is a really, really important thing.

00:10:28.000 And all this is part and parcel of a broader attempt by the Trump administration to cut out the waste, fraud, and abuse.

00:10:34.000 We have a breaking story on that from our own Luke Rosiak, our investigative reporter here at Daily Wire.

00:10:39.000 He points out today, quote, a prominent diversity, equity, and inclusion nonprofit declared bankruptcy this month after its board accused its founder and top employees of stealing millions of dollars, according to a Daily Wire investigation.

00:10:49.000 Bill Clinton and Oprah Winfrey are set to keynote a conference run by the alleged thief, apparently, through his for-profit firm next month.

00:10:56.000 The National Diversity Council filed for bankruptcy March 17th after its board said in a lawsuit that its founder, R. Dennis Kennedy, quote, improperly paid himself millions of dollars from NDC's donor funds.

00:11:05.000 The suit said that Kennedy paid himself a grossly excessive salary while using the non-profit as a front for his for-profit diversity consulting business called Diversity and Leadership, Inc.

00:11:14.000 The group's 2020 IRS disclosure said Kennedy was paid $450,000 for 10 hours of work per week.

00:11:20.000 In 2022, at night of corporation CEI hype, Kennedy, Chief Executive Officer Angelis Valenciano, and Chief Financial Officer Jason DeGroote also unilaterally decided they were owed almost $3 million in back pay.

00:11:33.000 And then they paid themselves more than $1 million in donor funds.

00:11:36.000 Board members started to become suspicious, and they figured there was nothing there that justified the payments.

00:11:40.000 Kennedy systematically moved the nonprofit's trademarks and web domains into his own name, and essentially created a fake organization with the same name that would trick people into paying him directly according to the lawsuit.

00:11:51.000 Nationaldiversitycouncil.org now leads to a website of an organization that purports to be the National Diversity Council, listing Kennedy as its founder and no board, Don Hooper.

00:12:00.000 An accountant who manages bankruptcy for NDC's board told The Daily Wire the site is not operated by the National Diversity Council.

00:12:06.000 So deep corruption with taxpayer dollars, obviously.

00:12:11.000 And the imposter NDC website, by the way, is having a conference in LA next month, which is supposed to feature Bill Clinton and Oprah Winfrey.

00:12:19.000 The necessity of wiping out bad taxpayer spending is deep and real, and it is having a positive impact on our markets, obviously.

00:12:28.000 Cuts to regulation.

00:12:30.000 Cuts to bizarre subsidization schemes.

00:12:32.000 All of that is quite good for the American economy.

00:12:36.000 Along those lines, yesterday, the Secretary of Energy, Chris Wright, he said it's time to invest in energy.

00:12:43.000 The Trump administration is making a bunch of really good moves for the economy, which is why, despite all the tariff threats, the economy seems to be still chugging along.

00:12:52.000 Here yesterday was Secretary Christopher Wright.

00:12:56.000 With the policies now and a belief that we can invest in America, across America, and including Alaska, which was sanctioned far more than Iran or Venezuela by the Biden administration, now that we're free to produce American energy across our country, it gives us great geopolitical leverage.

00:13:13.000 If we don't like the behavior of Venezuela and our foreign policy decides, hey, we should change Venezuela's ability to export oil, we have the ability to do that without impacting prices to American consumers.

00:13:25.000 So key for me is American energy makes American lives better, also makes us more secure and more strategically powerful abroad.

00:13:34.000 The Trump administration is making a lot of very good economic moves, and those moves, of course, include Doge, which continues to surgically trim the fat from decades of bloated government spending and corruption.

00:13:43.000 PureTalk, the cell phone company I use for business every day, is cutting the fat from the wireless industry.

00:13:48.000 That's correct.

00:13:48.000 PureTalk says, I don't think so, to a $100 a month cell phone planned.

00:13:51.000 That's just wasteful.

00:13:52.000 It's irresponsible.

00:13:53.000 Instead, they're offering America's most dependable 5G network at America's most sensible prices.

00:13:57.000 Listen to this.

00:13:58.000 Unlimited talk.

00:13:59.000 Tax 15 gigs of data plus mobile hotspot for just $35 a month.

00:14:02.000 The best part?

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00:14:05.000 Access the entire library of Daily Wire +, movies and documentaries.

00:14:08.000 Enjoy uncensored ad-free daily shows.

00:14:10.000 Access to Daily Wire Kids programming and, as always, your free Leftist Tears Tumblr.

00:14:14.000 With PureTalk's U.S. customer service team, you can switch hassle-free in as little as 10 minutes.

00:14:18.000 You don't need Doge to cut the fat from your wireless bill.

00:14:20.000 You need PureTalk.

00:14:21.000 Go to puretalk.com slash Shapiro.

00:14:23.000 Switch to PureTalk at puretalk.com slash Shapiro.

00:14:26.000 Get a year of Daily Wire Plus for free with a qualifying plan.

00:14:29.000 PureTalk Wireless by Americans for Americans.

00:14:31.000 I've been using PureTalk myself for years.

00:14:33.000 I value, obviously, clarity in my cell phone conversations.

00:14:36.000 PureTalk provides me excellent coverage.

00:14:40.000 Meanwhile, the big sort of issue of the day when it comes to inflation is, of course, egg prices.

00:14:50.000 Egg prices are now falling.

00:14:52.000 They're falling nationally.

00:14:53.000 That's particularly on the wholesale level.

00:14:54.000 They've yet to drop tremendously on the retail level.

00:14:57.000 There are a few reasons for this.

00:14:59.000 One of them is, in fact, economic sanguinity with regard to gas prices and transportation prices.

00:15:04.000 It costs money to get the eggs from the farm to the...

00:15:08.000 It is also because the avian flu is basically giving out, so fewer chickens are dying.

00:15:13.000 So you have an increase in the supply of eggs, and that is combined with a drop in the demand for eggs because of the high prices, so you get lower prices.

00:15:19.000 Here's President Trump praising the Secretary of Agriculture, Brooke Rollins, over the drop in egg prices yesterday.

00:15:25.000 Eggs were through the roof.

00:15:27.000 If you've got to see the Biden chart, it's like a rocket ship, and Trump is like this way.

00:15:32.000 But I gave Brooke the...

00:15:35.000 Secretary of Agriculture.

00:15:37.000 And I didn't know it.

00:15:40.000 I didn't know it.

00:15:42.000 She studied that in college.

00:15:43.000 I didn't know that.

00:15:44.000 I was going to give it to her anyway.

00:15:46.000 It didn't matter that she studied it, but it sort of helped, right?

00:15:49.000 But she came in and she lowered the cost of eggs by almost 50% in three weeks. 0.99

00:15:57.000 So again, all of this is quite good.

00:15:59.000 Now, on the problematic side of the ledger, President Trump yesterday announced that he would be Driving up tariffs on non-American made cars.

00:16:07.000 Now, one of the problems with this is that how do you define a non-American made car?

00:16:12.000 An enormous number of cars that have foreign brands on them are actually made in the United States.

00:16:17.000 And so it's unclear exactly quite how this applies as of yet.

00:16:20.000 Here's President Trump announcing it yesterday.

00:16:22.000 And this is very modest.

00:16:24.000 And what we're going to be doing is a 25% tariff on all cars that are not made in the United States.

00:16:31.000 If they're made in the United States, there's absolutely no tariff.

00:16:34.000 We started off with a 2.5% base, which is what we were at.

00:16:38.000 And we go to 25%.

00:16:40.000 Now, what exactly will it apply to?

00:16:44.000 According to the New York Times, the tariffs are set to go into effect April 3rd.

00:16:47.000 They apply to both finished cars and trucks shipped into the United States, even if the majority of parts, for example, are made in the United States.

00:16:53.000 Sometimes they are completed in Mexico or in Canada.

00:16:56.000 And to imported parts that are assembled into cars at American auto plants.

00:17:00.000 The tariffs will hit foreign brands, but they'll also hit American ones because...

00:17:03.000 Ford Motor and General Motors build some of their vehicles in Canada and Mexico, and virtually all cars use some foreign-made parts.

00:17:09.000 Nearly half of all vehicles sold in the United States are currently imported, so are 60% of the parts in vehicles assembled in the United States.

00:17:16.000 So you could see a significant inflation in terms of the price of your car.

00:17:22.000 Again, these car parts will cross the border three, four times before they actually end up in your driveway.

00:17:29.000 This is, to my mind, a mistake by the Trump administration.

00:17:32.000 I think that these tariffs that are designed to protect quote-unquote domestic industry inflate prices at the cost of American consumers.

00:17:39.000 They create pressures where there need not be pressures.

00:17:43.000 And those pressures are likely to have a negative impact on the economy.

00:17:48.000 So certainly you could get boosts in particular areas of the economy, but understand tariffs are a subsidy to some at the expense of the others.

00:17:54.000 That is what this is.

00:17:57.000 Stock investors are spooked, according to the Wall Street Journal.

00:18:00.000 The markets plummet every time Mr. Trump proposes a new or higher tariff and rise when he delays or cancel them.

00:18:04.000 By the way, this is true.

00:18:05.000 You can see it actually in real time.

00:18:06.000 When President Trump does a press conference and it's broadcast on CNBC and you're watching the stock ticker in the corner or on Fox Business and you watch President Trump talk about tariffs, you can watch the stocks drop in real time as he talks about the tariffs.

00:18:21.000 Whenever he delays them, the stock market goes up again.

00:18:24.000 So it's still unclear exactly what the tariff regime is going to look like.

00:18:28.000 When President Trump brings it on April 2nd, he has talked about a significant tariff regime.

00:18:32.000 The same thing for Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick.

00:18:35.000 The possibility of economic stagnation arising from this corporate uncertainty, people not investing as much, that is a real problem.

00:18:43.000 The uncertainty is of itself a problem.

00:18:46.000 When President Trump says, for example, that April 2nd is Liberation Day because of the tariffs, they'll be applied on any trading partner.

00:18:53.000 That charges tariffs or imposes other trade barriers on U.S. products, markets start to freak out.

00:18:57.000 And even if he withdraws them, people start to think, okay, I'm just going to hold out my money.

00:19:01.000 I'm going to have some dry powder until we actually know what the hell is going on here.

00:19:05.000 And this is, in fact, a problem for President Trump, and there's no reason to do it.

00:19:08.000 It is a mistake.

00:19:09.000 There's no reason to do it, given the fact that the economy is, in fact, chugging along, and investors are really, really happy with what President Trump is doing on the regulatory side, on the spending side, and on the tax side.

00:19:20.000 Meanwhile, in good news for the Trump administration.

00:19:22.000 Huge story today.

00:19:24.000 The top MS-13 leader in the United States was arrested by authorities in Virginia, according to the FBI.

00:19:31.000 According to the New York Post, U.S. authorities have now captured the top MS-13 leader for the U.S. East Coast.

00:19:36.000 The 24-year-old suspect in Woolbridge, Virginia, just south of Washington, D.C., was captured yesterday.

00:19:43.000 Authorities have yet to release the suspect's name.

00:19:45.000 They say he is one of the top three leaders of MS-13 in the United States.

00:19:49.000 Both A.G. Pambandi and FBI Director Cash Patel monitored the arrest as it took place on Thursday morning.

00:19:54.000 According to Bondi, quote, they executed a clean, safe operation.

00:19:58.000 The bad guy's in custody.

00:19:59.000 Thanks to the FBI, we got one of the worst of the worst of MS-13 off the streets this morning.

00:20:04.000 Presumably, some court will then demand his release because that seems to be the pattern.

00:20:08.000 The Trump administration starts deporting criminal illegal immigrants and various courts decide that that's bad and that these people have a right to stay. 0.99

00:20:16.000 In the United States, speaking of which, according to the Wall Street Journal today, an appeals court upheld an order blocking the Trump administration from using a wartime law to deport alleged Venezuelan gang members on the same day that Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem visited a prison in El Salvador, where the migrants are currently being detained.

00:20:31.000 The House Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit's 2-1 decision on Wednesday denied the Justice Department's bid to lift the block while it fights the lawsuit.

00:20:40.000 Karen Henderson, who is a George H.W. Bush appointee, So the argument is not that what Trump is doing is illegal.

00:20:54.000 The argument is that he can't do it until it's been totally adjudicated.

00:20:57.000 So before you hear that Trump's action has been struck down or something like that, all that's happening here is that the court is deciding that the temporary restraining order is appropriate so that you don't have further irremediable deportation.

00:21:09.000 Because if somebody gets deported, you can't exactly bring them back.

00:21:11.000 And in the meantime, it'll get adjudicated up to the Supreme Court, which is likely where this is going to go.

00:21:17.000 So, not all is lost on that front.

00:21:20.000 President Trump is solving illegal immigration faster than any other problem.

00:21:24.000 Again, there's a reason why, in the polling data, the worries about illegal immigration have dropped precipitously.

00:21:31.000 And that is because at the border, particularly our southern border, illegal immigration is almost non-existent now.

00:21:36.000 Now, speaking of scandals that are really, I think, Not scandal.

00:21:40.000 I think most Americans are bored with this.

00:21:41.000 Just to be perfectly frank about where I think most Americans are on the so-called Signalgate scandal.

00:21:47.000 This, of course, is all the members of the Trump National Security Team who are having a conversation on Signal about bombing the Houthis.

00:21:53.000 And that conversation included some operational details in real time about what was happening.

00:21:59.000 Planes taking off, about to strike, that kind of stuff.

00:22:02.000 It was vague in the sense that it did not include, as the Secretary of Defense reminds us, Any names, any targets, any locations, any units, any routes, any sources, any methods, no classified information.

00:22:12.000 It still included information that was non-public, obviously, because it was saying in real time, planes about to take off, for example.

00:22:21.000 And that signal chat included Jeffrey Goldberg.

00:22:24.000 Somebody included the Obama stenographer, Jeffrey Goldberg from The Atlantic.

00:22:29.000 And this is supposed to be one of the great scandals of our time.

00:22:33.000 Here's the thing.

00:22:34.000 If I have a choice, and unfortunately, apparently I do, Between a national security team that does the right things, but also does stupid, accidental things like including Jeffrey Goldberg in group chat, and an administration that surrenders everywhere on Earth but does it by the book, I'm going to go with A. And that apparently is the choice.

00:22:54.000 I wish there was a choice where everything was by the book and it was not surrendering all over the world.

00:22:59.000 But apparently that choice is no longer available to us.

00:23:01.000 Again, this is not going to happen.

00:23:02.000 Again, a mistake is a mistake.

00:23:04.000 A blunder is a blunder.

00:23:05.000 The idea that this is sort of a widespread systemic, oh my god, Americans are freaking...

00:23:09.000 Here's the thing about procedural scandals at this point in American history.

00:23:12.000 No one is getting ousted over a procedural scandal.

00:23:15.000 You're going to get ousted if you had a sex scandal or if you did something so bad for the American people that you have to go.

00:23:21.000 That's pretty much the only circumstance in which you are going.

00:23:24.000 But including a journalist by accident in a signal chat is not going to be that thing.

00:23:31.000 It's not going to be that thing.

00:23:32.000 By the way, I should point out here...

00:23:33.000 That Jeffrey Goldberg of the Atlantic, people are giving him plaudits for not revealing the classified information until he was called upon to basically go ahead and do that by the Trump administration.

00:23:43.000 Here's what I would have done.

00:23:44.000 If I had been included in such a signal chat, I would have immediately notified someone in the signal chat that I was a journalist and I probably shouldn't be in it.

00:23:52.000 And then I would have reported that they accidentally included me in a signal chat before I got access to all of these operational details.

00:23:58.000 Goldberg's bizarre excuse in not doing that.

00:24:01.000 Was that he thought that maybe it was all a giant prank.

00:24:04.000 But even if it was a giant prank, the first thing you would do is say, I don't belong in the signal chat.

00:24:09.000 Why am I in here?

00:24:10.000 And then you would check it out and go for a comment.

00:24:12.000 That's the way you would normally handle it.

00:24:13.000 Well, all of this is deeply confusing, but don't lose sleep over it because there is something deeply satisfying about a good spring refresh.

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00:26:22.000 In any case, President Trump, he understands the bottom line, which is, was the attack on the Houthi successful or was it not?

00:26:29.000 Here's President Trump yesterday.

00:26:31.000 It was nothing under the compromise, and it had no impact on the attack, which was very successful.

00:26:37.000 It was a very, very successful attack.

00:26:40.000 Then it's an attack that Biden should have done three years ago, but he didn't do it because it would have been a lot easier three years ago.

00:26:49.000 Okay, well, he's right about that.

00:26:51.000 And in the end...

00:26:52.000 It is what comes out of the oven that matters, not the ingredients.

00:26:57.000 If the cookie's good, the cookie's good.

00:26:58.000 That's all.

00:27:00.000 Caroline Lovett, yesterday, she said that President Trump has confidence in his national security team.

00:27:06.000 Can you say definitively that no one will lose their jobs?

00:27:10.000 No one will lose their job at all because of this signal situation?

00:27:13.000 What I can say definitively is what I just spoke to the president about, and he continues to have confidence in his national security team.

00:27:21.000 Levitt also pointed out that these were not, in fact, classified plans.

00:27:24.000 Now, the debate over classification status, the reality is the president can declassify anything that he wants.

00:27:29.000 So if the president says, this is not classified, then, definitionally, it is not classified.

00:27:33.000 Should it have been classified is another sort of question.

00:27:36.000 Here was Caroline Leavitt on this topic.

00:27:39.000 aren't launch times on a mission strike?

00:27:44.000 Again, I would defer you to the Secretary of Defense's statement he put out this morning.

00:27:48.000 There were various reasons he listed, things that were not included in that messaging thread that were not classified.

00:27:55.000 Now, again, the easiest thing to say here would be, okay, we botched it.

00:28:00.000 Whoops. That's the easiest thing.

00:28:02.000 And Secretary of State Marco Rubio essentially said that yesterday.

00:28:05.000 He said, yeah, absolutely, somebody made a mistake.

00:28:09.000 This thing was set up.

00:28:10.000 For purposes of coordinating how everyone was going to call, you know, when these things happen, I need to call foreign ministers, especially of our close allies.

00:28:18.000 We need to notify members of Congress.

00:28:20.000 Other members of the team have different people they need to notify as well.

00:28:24.000 And that was the purpose of why it was set up.

00:28:26.000 Obviously, someone made a mistake.

00:28:28.000 Someone made a big mistake and added a journalist.

00:28:32.000 Nothing against journalists, but you ain't supposed to be on that thing.

00:28:37.000 Okay, he is right about this.

00:28:39.000 And this is the most obvious response.

00:28:40.000 Mistake. Oopsie.

00:28:42.000 Move on.

00:28:43.000 Democrats, however, have decided this is worse than the Afghanistan pullout, which is quite an amazing statement. 1.00

00:28:47.000 Here is Senator Mark Warner saying this is worse than Afghanistan, which I'm going to go no on that.

00:28:52.000 It seems to me that much worse for the world was the United States pulling out of Afghanistan in absolute ignominious defeat, getting Americans killed in the process and leading to Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine, among other things.

00:29:03.000 And again, I just, I think there is a little richness of what you said in the fact that if you go back, way back in the old days as well, and oh my gosh, Hillary Clinton was using the wrong emailer.

00:29:14.000 Joe Biden's incompetent.

00:29:16.000 Come on, guys.

00:29:17.000 You know, if you don't think this is a case of incompetence and a pattern after a variety of other kind of sloppy use of classified information, then you've not been following the last 60 plus days that I've been following.

00:29:36.000 So, worse than Afghanistan. 1.00

00:29:37.000 Meanwhile, Representative Jimmy Gomez went the worst possible route, asking whether Pete Hegseth was drunk on the chat, which is just gross and stupid. 0.98

00:29:46.000 The main person who was involved in this thread that a lot of people want to talk to is Secretary of Defense Hegseth. 0.97

00:29:53.000 And a lot of questions were brought up regarding his drinking habits and his confirmation hearing.

00:30:01.000 To your knowledge, do you know whether Pete Hegseth had been drinking before he leaked classified information?

00:30:08.000 I don't have any knowledge of Secretary Hegseth's personal habits. 0.94

00:30:14.000 Just ridiculous. 0.98

00:30:16.000 Absolutely ridiculous. 0.99

00:30:17.000 You know, Chris Matthews was going crazy. 0.99

00:30:19.000 It's a cover-up!

00:30:20.000 It wheeled him in from a local hotel.

00:30:23.000 His wife, Kathleen, is the manager.

00:30:25.000 Talk about all this.

00:30:26.000 Come on in here.

00:30:27.000 Come on over the show.

00:30:28.000 Haven't ironed my shirt in 27 years.

00:30:31.000 Same shirt, every day.

00:30:32.000 Got some bad pit stains by now, but let's talk about the cover-up.

00:30:35.000 Covering up those pit stains with his jacket hair.

00:30:37.000 Go, Chris Matthews, go!

00:30:40.000 I believe this story moved from blunder, which it was for all the last few days, to cover-up.

00:30:46.000 And the cover-up began almost immediately.

00:30:52.000 Cover-up.

00:30:53.000 What is the cover-up, precisely?

00:30:55.000 It's all out there.

00:30:57.000 We know everything that happened.

00:30:58.000 What is it?

00:30:59.000 What is there to cover up?

00:31:01.000 It's literally all public in the chat.

00:31:03.000 And then they said to Jeffrey Goldberg, if you release the rest of the chat, it's not classified.

00:31:07.000 And then he did.

00:31:08.000 It's like the least cover-up cover-up I've ever seen in my entire life.

00:31:11.000 Here's the thing.

00:31:11.000 So I think most Americans care deeply about this.

00:31:13.000 I really, really don't.

00:31:14.000 I'd be shocked if they do, frankly.

00:31:16.000 It seems like a bureaucratic snafu.

00:31:18.000 It seems like a mistake.

00:31:19.000 And it doesn't seem like it inhibited our ability to kill Houthis.

00:31:22.000 So there's that.

00:31:23.000 And all the sort of over-the-top media coverage is unjustifiable.

00:31:27.000 On virtually every level.

00:31:30.000 Joining us on the line is our White House reporter, Mary Margaret Olehan, and she spent the day with J.D. Vance yesterday.

00:31:36.000 Mary Margaret, good to see you.

00:31:39.000 Good to see you, Ben.

00:31:40.000 It's a beautiful morning here at the White House.

00:31:42.000 And yes, I did get to go to Quantico, Virginia yesterday with the Vice President for his visit to the Marine base, where he spoke to hundreds of Marines.

00:31:51.000 I was told that around 750 Marines gathered for this event yesterday.

00:31:55.000 And of course, we know that the Vice President is himself a Marine.

00:31:58.000 I would say former Marine, but everyone's been correcting me on social media and reminding me that once a Marine...

00:32:03.000 Always a Marine.

00:32:04.000 And the Vice President spoke to these Marines.

00:32:06.000 He told them that President Trump loves them, that he's proud of them, and he reminded them that they're an incredibly important part of our country, of protecting our country.

00:32:15.000 And he also emphasized that he's focused on building warriors and not woke ideology.

00:32:19.000 So all of this was really interesting.

00:32:21.000 It was well-received by the Marines.

00:32:22.000 And I actually talked to a whole bunch of them.

00:32:25.000 They were really sweet.

00:32:26.000 Young Marines, I would say.

00:32:28.000 And they had some really interesting things to say about the Vice President.

00:32:31.000 I believe we have a clip of that right here that we can show you all.

00:32:34.000 What does it mean to you that the Vice President is a Marine?

00:32:37.000 It means a lot because it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

00:32:40.000 Not everybody gets to meet someone like him.

00:32:42.000 Yeah. What about you?

00:32:43.000 It's definitely going to be a breath of fresh air, you know, to have a Marine that's going to be, you know, second in charge.

00:32:48.000 So, super excited for that.

00:32:49.000 And you?

00:32:50.000 Love to see the Marine Corps representing the United States and having a crew in the White House.

00:32:54.000 So, I've been hearing a lot about how we're seeing a lot more recruitment numbers lately.

00:32:58.000 Have you guys seen a surge in enthusiasm among your colleagues or among your new recruits?

00:33:04.000 In regards to the CDU administration.

00:33:06.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:33:07.000 Marine Corps is at an all-time high right now.

00:33:09.000 I feel like a lot of people want to join the military now that we have people that are willing to back the United States.

00:33:16.000 So these guys were just so full of enthusiasm.

00:33:18.000 It was really fun to talk to them.

00:33:19.000 And then, you know, the vice president's visit was delayed a little bit because he was speaking with Trump.

00:33:23.000 But when he ultimately arrived, you should have seen how those Marines were cheering as we saw Air Force Two landing.

00:33:29.000 And then it was really cool, too, because we got to follow him around as part of the pool press and see how he interacted with the Marines at the chow hall, for example.

00:33:37.000 They all got lunch together.

00:33:38.000 And, you know, Ben, J.D. Vance grew up in Ohio and Kentucky.

00:33:41.000 He's written a lot about this in his book, Hillbilly Elegy, which describes a lot of the The poverty he had to endure and, you know, the drug problems in Appalachia and all of these really very real legitimate problems for many Americans.

00:33:54.000 So it was really interesting to see him interacting with these Marines, talking about their problems back at home and how they want to build America and protect our country.

00:34:02.000 And then maybe in the coolest part of the day, we got to go with him to a shooting range where the Vice President was testing out some weapons.

00:34:10.000 I've got some clips of that too, and I think we definitely want to take a look at those.

00:34:13.000 Hit! Hit shot! 0.94

00:34:17.000 Awesome, good shot! 0.89

00:34:18.000 Hit! Center check! 1.00

00:34:23.000 Hit! Center check! 1.00

00:34:28.000 Well, it sounds like J.D. Vance was a good shot from the calls that you're hearing on the range.

00:34:33.000 They're shouting, hit, headshot, and all the rest.

00:34:38.000 Yes, and I mean, I'm no expert on weapons.

00:34:40.000 I'm no expert on guns, Ben.

00:34:41.000 But I can tell you, I shared that on social media, and my phone died while I was out there on the range.

00:34:45.000 And when I turned it back on, my phone had blown up because people were so excited about these shots and seeing the vice president out there on the range experimenting with these weapons.

00:34:54.000 He actually closed out the day shooting what I was told is called a howitzer, which is a type of cannon.

00:35:00.000 And that was super loud, very cool to see.

00:35:03.000 You know, he's interacting with these Marines.

00:35:05.000 He's taking pictures with them all.

00:35:06.000 And at the end of the day, he took Air Force Two back to the White House.

00:35:10.000 So I found it a really interesting day, especially in light of a lot of the events going on at the White House right now.

00:35:14.000 For example, during the press briefing, all that Caroline Levitt was asked about was this signal chat and the implications of the Vice President and Pete Hegseth and the other members of the national security team interacting in this signal chat.

00:35:27.000 But it was cool to get out of D.C., out to Quantico with these Marines and see the Vice President's real interactions with them and how they received him and how they reacted to it.

00:35:37.000 And I just did want to add, Ben, on a final note, I just bumped into a really interesting person coming into the White House today, Michael Knowles, coming through White House security with me.

00:35:45.000 So I'm excited to see him around the White House today, and I heard that he might be doing something cool around here, so excited for that as well.

00:35:53.000 Well, that is awesome for you.

00:35:55.000 And it's awesome for me because it means Michael Mills is nowhere near me.

00:35:58.000 So I'm really excited about that.

00:35:59.000 Mary Margaret, doing a wonderful job, as always, from the White House.

00:36:02.000 Really appreciate it.

00:36:05.000 Thanks, Ben.

00:36:07.000 Meanwhile, the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees the right to an impartial jury, a fundamental cornerstone of our justice system.

00:36:14.000 But what happens when that impartiality is systematically undermined by external forces?

00:36:18.000 What happens when jurors are effectively told that their city will burn if they don't reach the correct verdict?

00:36:23.000 What happens when sitting members of Congress and even the presidents of the United States weigh in on a defendant's guilt before the jury has even deliberated?

00:36:30.000 That's exactly what happened in the Derek Chauvin trial.

00:36:32.000 It represents one of the most egregious violations of due process in modern American legal history.

00:36:37.000 This is The Case for Derek Chauvin, Episode 4, The Jury.

00:36:40.000 The Case for Derek Chauvin, Episode 4, The Jury.

00:36:45.000 The state trial of Derek Chauvin for the murder of George Floyd took place at the Hennepin County Government Center in Minneapolis from March 8th to April 20th, 2021.

00:36:53.000 It was the first criminal trial in Minnesota to be entirely televised and broadcast live, receiving extensive media coverage with over 23 million people watching the verdict announcement on live television.

00:37:02.000 But the reality is that Derek Chauvin never received a fair trial, not because the judge was biased or the prosecutor's unethical, but because the entire social and political environment made an impartial jury verdict virtually impossible.

00:37:13.000 As Harvard Law Professor Emeritus Alan Dershowitz has noted, not moving the Derek Chauvin trial out of Minneapolis was a serious constitutional mistake.

00:37:21.000 Judge Peter Cahill, who presided over the case, was appointed to the bench in 2007 by former Republican Governor Tim Pawlenty and was subsequently elected by voters in both 2014 and 2020.

00:37:30.000 His current term expires January 2027.

00:37:32.000 His background includes experience as a prosecutor, criminal defense attorney, public defender, and administrator, notably serving as chief judge and as top deputy to Amy Klobuchar during her tenure as Hennepin County attorney.

00:37:43.000 Colleagues describe Cahill as fair, decisive, bold, with Chief Hennepin District Judge Todrick Barnett stating, quote, And as far as change of venue,

00:38:09.000 I do not think that that would give the defendant any kind of a fair trial beyond what we are doing here today.

00:38:16.000 I don't think there's any place in the state of Minnesota that has not been subjected.

00:38:22.000 To extreme amounts of publicity on this case.

00:38:25.000 In similar high-profile cases where community tensions have run high, courts typically grant venue changes to ensure fair trials.

00:38:31.000 The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit even vacated white Detroit police officer Larry Nevers' conviction in the beating death of a black motorist in 1999, citing intense community pressure and publicity that made a fair trial impossible, despite strong evidence against him.

00:38:44.000 The denial of a venue change in the Chauvin case is particularly troubling.

00:38:48.000 Given that Minneapolis was the epicenter of the protests and riots that followed George Floyd's death.

00:38:52.000 The idea that jurors living in this community could remain entirely unaffected by these events defies logic.

00:38:58.000 One of the most revealing aspects of this case, which wasn't made public until February 2021, was that Derek Chauvin had actually agreed to plead guilty to third-degree murder just three days after Floyd's death.

00:39:07.000 Under that deal, Chauvin would have served more than 10 years in federal prison.

00:39:10.000 That plea deal fell apart when then-Attorney General William Barr rejected it, worried it would be perceived as too lenient by protesters across the country.

00:39:17.000 Think about the implications of this.

00:39:19.000 Barr rejected a deal that would have put Chauvin in prison for a decade because he was concerned about public perception and potential civil unrest, not the facts of the case or the law.

00:39:26.000 The court drew from an initial pool of 326 registered voters in Hennepin County, the very community that had experienced the riots, the very people who'd witnessed their city burning and knew exactly what would happen if they delivered the wrong verdict.

00:39:38.000 Each potential juror completed a 14-page questionnaire addressing their attitudes toward the justice system and police.

00:39:43.000 But here's the kicker.

00:39:44.000 This was all happening as city officials were deliberately poisoning the jury pool.

00:39:48.000 Perhaps the most blatant attempt to influence the jury came not from protesters or politicians, but from the Minneapolis city government itself.

00:39:54.000 On March 12, 2021, right in the middle of jury selection, the Minneapolis City Council unanimously approved a $27 million settlement with George Floyd's family.

00:40:02.000 This wasn't just any settlement.

00:40:04.000 It was the largest pretrial civil rights settlement in American history.

00:40:08.000 As former Hennepin County Chief Public Defender Mary Moriarty observed, The problem with the settlement timing is that I think $27 million sends a huge message about what the city thinks of Chauvin's behavior.

00:40:17.000 Think about what this communicates to potential jurors.

00:40:19.000 Before a single piece of evidence has been presented in the criminal trial, the city has already determined that Floyd's death was wrongful and that enormous compensation is warranted.

00:40:27.000 The impact was so significant that Judge Cahill had to recall seven jurors who had already been seated.

00:40:32.000 to determine if they had heard about the settlement and whether it would affect their ability to serve impartially.

00:40:36.000 Two jurors were ultimately dismissed after admitting they couldn't be impartial after learning of the settlement.

00:40:40.000 One juror stated bluntly, I think it'll be hard to be impartial.

00:40:43.000 Another said, that sticker price obviously shocked me.

00:40:46.000 Did it move you one direction or the other?

00:40:50.000 I would say especially that dollar amount was kind of shocking to me that kind of sent a message that the city of Minneapolis felt that something was wrong.

00:41:05.000 Judge Cahill described the timing of the settlement announcement as unfortunate, expressing concern it could influence jurors.

00:41:11.000 He stated, quote, I wish city officials would stop talking about this case so much.

00:41:14.000 As defense attorney Eric Nelson argued in court, the timing of the announcement was incredibly prejudicial.

00:41:19.000 The final jury consisted of 12 jurors plus two alternates, five men, seven women, including six white, four black, and two multiracial jurors.

00:41:26.000 But the demographic breakdown masks something far more important.

00:41:29.000 The exclusion of jurors who might question the prosecution's narrative.

00:41:32.000 Juror number two, a chemist who described himself as a pretty logical person who relied on facts and logic, was precisely the kind of analytical thinker the prosecution might fear.

00:41:40.000 Juror number 44, a healthcare executive who expressed empathy for both officers and Floyd, stating, quote, I'm sure his death is not something anyone intended to happen, represented a balanced perspective that could threaten the prosecution's murder theory.

00:41:51.000 Meanwhile, juror number 52, Brandon Mitchell, later revealed to have attended a Washington, D.C. rally wearing a get your knee off our next t-shirt.

00:41:58.000 Somehow made it on to the jury, despite falsely claiming during selection he had never attended demonstrations about police use of force.

00:42:03.000 One prospective juror's voice literally quivered as she told attorneys during jury selection she feared for her family's safety if chosen for the panel.

00:42:10.000 When the judge excused her, she exhaled in relief.

00:42:12.000 The media coverage of the Chauvin case was relentlessly one-sided from the beginning.

00:42:16.000 Before any evidence was presented in court, before the autopsy results were even complete, legacy news outlets had already crafted their narrative.

00:42:22.000 Derek Chauvin was a racist cop who deliberately murdered George Floyd.

00:42:25.000 For jurors, avoiding this coverage was virtually impossible.

00:42:28.000 Judge Cahill repeatedly told them not to watch the news, but as legal experts note, television news is not the only source of information in the modern age.

00:42:35.000 The vast majority of people get their information from social media, online sources, and in conversations with others.

00:42:40.000 The prejudicial effect of this media coverage was compounded by the fact that Judge Cahill refused to sequester the jury until deliberations began.

00:42:47.000 This meant that for the entire trial, jurors were potentially exposed to media narratives, public commentary, and the intense social pressure surrounding the case.

00:42:54.000 As if all of this wasn't enough to poison the jury pool, prominent politicians decided to weigh in on the case before the jury had reached a verdict.

00:43:01.000 The most egregious example came from Congresswoman Maxine Waters, who traveled to Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, on April 17, 2021, and told protesters, quote, We've got to stay on the street.

00:43:10.000 We've got to get more active.

00:43:11.000 We've got to get more confrontational.

00:43:12.000 We've got to make sure they know that we mean business.

00:43:15.000 We've got to get more confrontational.

00:43:17.000 We've got to make sure that they know that we mean business.

00:43:22.000 When asked what protesters should do if Chauvin was not found guilty, Waters said, We cannot let these killings continue.

00:43:27.000 This was nothing short of a call for civil unrest if the jury did not reach her preferred verdict.

00:43:31.000 Judge Cahill was so troubled by Waters' comments, he addressed them directly in court, calling them abhorrent, saying, This goes back to what I've been saying from the beginning.

00:43:46.000 I wish elected officials would stop talking about this case, especially in a manner that is disrespectful to the rule of law and to the judicial branch in our function.

00:43:56.000 I think if they want to give their opinions, they should do so in a respectful and in a manner that is consistent with their oath to the Constitution to respect the co-equal branch of government.

00:44:08.000 The judge even acknowledged that Waters, quote, may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned.

00:44:13.000 Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell rightly condemned Waters' comments, saying on the Senate floor, it's hard to imagine anything more inappropriate than her statement.

00:44:20.000 Joe Biden also weighed in before the verdict was announced, saying that he was, quote, praying the verdict is the right verdict and that the evidence was, quote, overwhelming in my view.

00:44:28.000 I can only imagine the pressure and anxiety they're feeling.

00:44:32.000 I'm praying the verdict is the right verdict.

00:44:35.000 I think it's overwhelming in my view.

00:44:38.000 The message to the jurors throughout the trial was clear.

00:44:40.000 The President of the United States believes Derek Chauvin is guilty.

00:44:43.000 Throughout the trial, jurors were confronted with constant reminders of the potential for violence if they reached an unpopular verdict.

00:44:49.000 A high fence was installed around the courthouse, a daily visual reminder of security concerns.

00:44:53.000 On some days, protesters gathered just beyond the fence, holding signs that read, Convict Derek Chauvin and The World is Watching.

00:44:59.000 Minnesota Governor Tim Walz activated the National Guard.

00:45:02.000 Law enforcement agencies across the country prepared for potential unrest depending on the verdict.

00:45:06.000 These security measures were not subtle.

00:45:08.000 They sent a clear message to jurors about what was expected to happen if Chauvin was acquitted.

00:45:12.000 Federal authorities even warn in classified briefings that extremists could exploit protests to engage in violence.

00:45:17.000 This atmosphere of tension and potential violence created an environment where jurors likely couldn't help but consider the broader implications of their verdict beyond the evidence presented in court.

00:45:25.000 Judge Cahill took the added step of keeping the jurors' name secret, acknowledging the potential danger they faced if their identities became public.

00:45:31.000 As one juror later revealed, quote, Even President Biden acknowledged after the verdict that the jury was, quote, under extraordinary pressure, an obvious admission about the atmosphere surrounding the trial.

00:45:48.000 What we witnessed in the Derek Chauvin trial was nothing short of mob rule.

00:45:52.000 When jurors know their city may burn if they acquit, when they fear for their own safety and that of their families, when politicians signal what the correct verdict must be, when a $27 million settlement makes the defendant's guilt seem like a foregone conclusion, we can't seriously claim justice was served.

00:46:06.000 Opening statements began after jury selection, followed by testimony that lasted approximately three weeks.

00:46:10.000 The prosecution called 38 witnesses in their case against Chauvin with a bystander video of Floyd's death serving as the focal points of their argument.

00:46:16.000 The prosecution repeatedly played this video, combining it with footage from police cameras and having witnesses walk jurors through it moment by moment.

00:46:24.000 Throughout the course of the trial, Judge Cahill made several significant evidentiary rulings that limited the defense's case.

00:46:29.000 Initially, Cahill deemed Floyd's 2007 aggravated robbery conviction and his 2019 Minneapolis arrest as inadmissible evidence.

00:46:35.000 Though he later partially reversed that decision to allow limited portions of the 2019 incident as medical evidence.

00:46:41.000 The court also ruled statements from Maurice Hall, Floyd's friend and alleged drug dealer who was with him during the incident, inadmissible as hearsay when Hall invoked his Fifth Amendment rights.

00:46:49.000 Additionally, at the heart of the trial lay a contentious and crucial piece of evidence, an MPD training slide that Chauvin's defense team sought to introduce.

00:46:56.000 This slide included a photo seemingly depicting the very restraint technique that Chauvin used, a technique, his defenders argue, was standard department protocol.

00:47:04.000 However, the court redacted this critical evidence from the slide.

00:47:07.000 The court's justification for redacting the photo on the slide was procedural rather than substantive.

00:47:12.000 Because Chauvin could not show that he received the training shown on this slide, the district court appropriately granted the state's motion to exclude the evidence for lack of foundation.

00:47:20.000 This ruling prevented jurors from seeing potentially exculpatory evidence demonstrating that Chauvin may have been following his training.

00:47:26.000 However, as Coleman Hughes argues in the free press, this rationale misses the broader point.

00:47:30.000 The defense should have been allowed to introduce evidence to the contrary, including an MRT training slide showing an officer with his knee on someone's neck, not as an example of improper technique, but as an example of proper technique.

00:47:41.000 The redaction effectively bar jurors from seeing direct evidence As Hughes noted, Once the prosecution cited Lieutenant Johnny Mersel's testimony that officers were trained to,

00:48:04.000 quote, stay away from the neck, the defense should have countered with evidence that MRT, including neck restraint, was explicitly taught, rendering the slide's inclusion irrelevant to Chauvin's personal training history.

00:48:13.000 This exclusion arguably deprived jurors of context and needed to assess whether Chauvin's actions violated MPD guidelines or reflected sanctioned procedures.

00:48:22.000 According to the Minnesota Star-Tribune, quote, dozens of former Minneapolis police officers filed sworn declarations this week, saying former officer Derek Chauvin followed training protocol when he pinned his knee on George Floyd's neck.

00:48:32.000 Additionally, the MPD's use of force policies contain critical context regarding officer discretion and safety protocols.

00:48:46.000 While officers are trained to place subjects in recovery positions as soon as possible, this directive must be understood within the broader context of scene management and officer safety considerations.

00:48:54.000 According to testimony from Lt. Johnny Mersel, While Mersel later stated that once a subject is under control and handcuffed, the technique would no longer be authorized.

00:49:10.000 This raises the question of when a subject is truly under control in a dynamic street situation with potential crowd interference.

00:49:16.000 The MPD call handling protocols specifically instructs officers to, quote, ensure that on-scene notification is reported to the dispatcher and to handle scenes, quote, in accordance with MPD policy and procedures.

00:49:26.000 Suggesting that scene management is a continuous assessment.

00:49:29.000 MPD policy specifically recognizes that officers must, quote, continuously reassess the perceived threat in order to select the reasonable use of force response, indicating control techniques may need to be maintained until officers can definitively establish that all threats, including environmental threats, have been neutralized.

00:49:44.000 Katie Blackwell's testimony that Chauvin's technique was, quote, not what we train, has been central to the case narrative.

00:49:49.000 However, this testimony is now directly challenged by former officers who assert Chauvin did follow his training.

00:49:54.000 As noted in court filings, these officers allege that the restraint technique Chauvin used against Floyd was part of departmental training.

00:49:59.000 The legal filing goes still further, arguing that Blackwell committed perjury when she testified Chauvin was not following departmental training.

00:50:05.000 This serious allegation suggests the trial may not have presented a complete picture of Minneapolis Police Department training protocols.

00:50:12.000 Closing arguments were made April 19, 2021.

00:50:15.000 Prosecutor Steve Schleicher stated that Chauvin's behavior, quote, wasn't policing, this was murder.

00:50:20.000 While defense attorney Eric Nelson argued a reasonable police officer would understand the situation.

00:50:24.000 The jury began deliberations April 19th and reached a verdict after approximately 10 hours.

00:50:28.000 On April 20th, 2021, at 4.07 p.m. Central Time, Chauvin was found guilty on all three charges, second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder, second-degree manslaughter.

00:50:37.000 On June 25th, 2021, Judge Cahill sentenced Chauvin to 22.5 years in prison, exceeding Minnesota's minimum guidelines, but falling short of the prosecutor's request for a 30-year sentence.

00:50:47.000 Let me be absolutely clear.

00:50:49.000 On this day, our justice system failed to provide the due process protection our Constitution demands for all defendants, regardless of the charges they face or how despised they may be.

00:50:58.000 In a system of justice worthy of the name, the verdict must be based solely on the evidence, not on fears of what might happen if the wrong verdict is reached.

00:51:05.000 As Judge Cahill himself acknowledged, external pressure and threats of violence have no place in our system of trial by jury.

00:51:10.000 In the fall of 2022, Judge Cahill delivered the Justice Jackson Lecture before a large audience of judges at the National Judicial College.

00:51:17.000 Curiously, only one news organization covered his remarks, despite their relevance to one of the most high-profile cases in modern history.

00:51:22.000 That organization was The Daily Wire, courtesy of my colleague Matt Walsh.

00:51:26.000 The lecture, which is available online, begins with Cahill making several jokes about various aspects of the Chauvin trial before covering topics like the importance of upgrading technology in courtrooms.

00:51:34.000 As the lecture progresses, Cahill makes a series of statements that raise serious questions about judicial impartiality.

00:51:39.000 He transitions from discussing procedural matters to advocating for what he terms racial justice.

00:51:43.000 In a manner that appears to depart from traditional notions of judicial neutrality.

00:51:47.000 Most concerning is when Cahill explicitly states to the roomful of judges that, quote, every case should be about racial justice.

00:51:54.000 But every case doesn't mean that we ignore racial justice.

00:51:58.000 Every case that you deal with should be about racial justice. 0.75

00:52:02.000 Even if everybody in your courtroom, if you're white, old white guy like me, and everybody else in the courtroom is an old white guy, even the defendant on the speeding case.

00:52:11.000 Cahill said every case should be about racial justice, work for equity.

00:52:14.000 He advised judges to take implicit bias training and suggested hiring practices based on demographic considerations.

00:52:19.000 Cahill advocated for judges to consider race consistently in their cases, claiming this approach would restore, quote, trust and confidence in the judiciary.

00:52:26.000 How many have been through applied bias training?

00:52:29.000 If you haven't, make sure you do it.

00:52:30.000 It's very valuable.

00:52:31.000 If you have any opportunity to help in the hiring process for court staff, If you can serve on the Equal Justice Committee, if you can go out into the community, we've done listening sessions in some of the communities of color just to listen.

00:52:49.000 The judiciary's fundamental purpose is to apply the law equally to all individuals, regardless of race or background.

00:52:55.000 A sitting judge openly advocating for racial consideration in all cases represents a significant departure from traditional judicial ethics.

00:53:03.000 Judge Cahill's comments revealed a concerning ideological framework that may have influenced the Chauvin trial proceedings.

00:53:08.000 Chauvin's legal team filed a motion for a new trial, citing numerous grounds, including jury misconduct, intimidation, and the court's failure to sequester the jury during the trial.

00:53:15.000 While this appeal was not successful, the legal issues it raised were substantial.

00:53:18.000 Four, external intimidation from politicians and protesters.

00:53:38.000 Five, evidence of juror misconduct and bias.

00:53:40.000 Any one of those might be sufficient grounds for reversal in a normal case.

00:53:44.000 Collectively, they represent a devastating indictment of the trial process.

00:53:48.000 Just two weeks after the state verdict, Chauvin was hit with federal civil rights charges on May 7, 2021.

00:53:53.000 Initially, Chauvin pled not guilty, but faced with the prospect of spending the rest of his life in federal prison if convicted at trial, he eventually accepted a plea deal on December 15, 2021.

00:54:01.000 The terms were 20 to 25 years in federal prison to run concurrent with his state sentence.

00:54:06.000 To pile on, they threw in a completely unrelated 2017 incident involving a 14-year-old to make Chauvin look like a serial abuser of power.

00:54:12.000 Judge Paul Magnuson ultimately sentenced him to 21 years in federal prison.

00:54:16.000 Given all these factors, a presidential pardon would send a powerful message that justice in America is not determined by mob rule or political pressure, but by evidence, due process, the rule of law.

00:54:25.000 It would affirm that even the most hated defendant deserves the full protection of our legal system.

00:54:30.000 Critics have argued that a pardon would undermine confidence in our justice system.

00:54:32.000 I argue confidence in our system is already undermined when trials are conducted under the shadow of intimidation and political interference.

00:54:39.000 Restoring faith in our system requires acknowledging when that system has failed and taking corrective action.

00:54:44.000 Visit PardonDerek.com, sign our petition asking President Trump to pardon Derek Chauvin for We'll also put the website up to donate to Derek Chauvin's Legal Defense Fund in the description.

00:54:54.000 This is about ensuring that justice is applied fairly and consistently without being swayed by mob mentality or political pressure.

00:55:01.000 Joining us on the line to discuss the case of Derek Chauvin is one of the journalists who helped really uncover many of the explosive details surrounding it.

00:55:09.000 That's Coleman Hughes.

00:55:10.000 Coleman, thanks so much for joining the show.

00:55:11.000 I really appreciate it.

00:55:12.000 Yeah, my pleasure.

00:55:15.000 So, obviously, I've been taking a leading role in calling for the pardon of Derek Chauvin.

00:55:20.000 Part of the, I think, transformation in the public view of the George Floyd-Derek Chauvin case.

00:55:25.000 is the series of articles that you wrote for the Free Press where you analyzed the case in detail.

00:55:30.000 I wanted to go through some of that with folks because the case that you make is that, you know, it's not as though we know for certain exactly how or why George Floyd died, but that's almost the point.

00:55:41.000 If you are in a criminal justice system in which reasonable doubt is the demand, there is no way this case meets the standards of beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:55:50.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:55:51.000 That's the first thing to keep in mind.

00:55:53.000 As you know, and many people in your audience know, the standard for convicting someone is a reasonable doubt, which basically means there has to be no other reasonable explanation for what happened other than Chauvin murdering Floyd.

00:56:07.000 And so, for me, the biggest red flag in this case on the reasonable doubt issue was just the fact that the official autopsy conducted by Dr. Andrew Baker had a theory of Floyd's death that did not implicate Chauvin.

00:56:22.000 This is what people didn't really appreciate, I think, at the time, and people still don't really appreciate.

00:56:27.000 There were two different theories of why George Floyd died.

00:56:30.000 One was positional asphyxia, meaning he wasn't able to breathe, essentially because of all the weight on top of him, and that would be Chauvin's fault, if that were true.

00:56:39.000 But the other theory was that he was so stressed Physiologically, by the entire situation, his heart rate was, the demand on his heart was such that he basically, his heart gave out because of his serious underlying heart conditions plus all the drugs in his system.

00:57:00.000 So on that theory, it was really the stress of the arrest in general and not the weight on top of him that killed him.

00:57:06.000 And that was the theory of the official autopsy.

00:57:09.000 That's right there.

00:57:10.000 That should be reasonable doubt, in my view.

00:57:14.000 And one of the things that's pretty amazing when you view the original autopsy and all of the medical reporting around it is that this really is not even a coin flip.

00:57:23.000 The positional asphyxia case is just not really backed by any of the medical evidence in the autopsy or at least not very much of it.

00:57:30.000 There's no bruising on his neck.

00:57:31.000 There's no bruising on his trachea.

00:57:32.000 The sort of speculation that would have to occur in order to achieve the idea that this was purely due to the weight on his back or on his neck.

00:57:40.000 You'd have to ignore things like the massively enlarged heart, like the 11 nanograms per milliliter of fentanyl in his system.

00:57:47.000 You'd have to ignore the tape, which shows him saying, I can't breathe, six separate times before he is even removed from the car and put on the ground.

00:57:55.000 He's obviously in a state of panic even before he's put into the police car.

00:58:00.000 I'm struggling, honestly, when I look at the autopsies to see where is the physical evidence that the weight alone would have made a person of George Floyd's prior health conditions and excited state and drug.

00:58:13.000 So there was no physical evidence.

00:58:19.000 That's why the prosecution brought in a pulmonologist, meaning a doctor who studies lungs, to kind of create a theoretical model of how George Floyd might have died from positional asphyxia.

00:58:33.000 And that's fine.

00:58:34.000 The prosecution's allowed to do that.

00:58:35.000 You can bring in a lung expert.

00:58:37.000 You can say, here's this other theory of how he might have died.

00:58:41.000 But that doctor didn't provide any evidence that refuted the official autopsy.

00:58:48.000 And the official autopsy, it's not just that positional asphyxia was a little bit there.

00:58:54.000 It just wasn't there at all.

00:58:56.000 Dr. Baker, who did the official autopsy, he had a chance to explain himself multiple times.

00:59:02.000 He was very clear that he attributed Floyd's death to the stress of the overall interaction and the demands it made on his heart.

00:59:13.000 He didn't a single time mention Floyd's difficulty breathing.

00:59:17.000 And his specialty as a forensic pathologist is determining cause of death.

00:59:23.000 So the guy who's paid by the state to figure out what killed Floyd, his theory was not that it was Chauvin's weight on his back.

00:59:34.000 And the reason this was important is in the conclusion of the trial, the prosecution essentially had to reject that theory.

00:59:41.000 They rejected the theory of their own pathologist because they knew it didn't implicate Floyd, right?

00:59:50.000 It didn't implicate Chauvin, rather.

00:59:52.000 But if you actually look into it...

00:59:54.000 They had no reason to reject it.

00:59:55.000 There was no other evidence at trial that found a problem with the autopsy.

00:59:59.000 The autopsy was very reasonable, and it just didn't implicate Chauvin.

01:00:05.000 So, Coleman, obviously one of the big issues surrounding the George Floyd case is the fact that it became a national issue, which effectively deprived Chauvin of his right to a fair trial.

01:00:14.000 It's the highest-profile criminal case that we've had in this country since the O.J. Simpson trial.

01:00:19.000 You had the presidential candidate for the Democratic Party essentially calling for his conviction.

01:00:24.000 Before this trial even happened, you had the city of Minneapolis paying out a $27 million settlement to George Floyd's family.

01:00:30.000 You had members of the jury who are openly at rallies wearing I can't breathe T-shirts before the trial took place.

01:00:37.000 You have jurors who afterward acknowledged that there was public pressure on them and that that affected their judgment.

01:00:41.000 What do you make of the jury deliberations and the fairness of the trial itself?

01:00:45.000 Yeah, so obviously my position on this has been controversial and I've been going back and forth with people on the various trial details.

01:00:54.000 The one argument I've made that no one has even tried to argue against is that Chauvin did not have a fair trial because It's just impossible to argue that he got a fair shake when you consider the fact that, first of all, several jurors, alternate jurors and seated jurors, said that they were afraid what would happen for their personal safety and to the general safety of the city if Chauvin were acquitted.

01:01:24.000 Right there, it's very difficult to be unbiased when you're afraid for your own safety.

01:01:29.000 These jurors knew that their names would come out.

01:01:33.000 Some months after the trial.

01:01:35.000 And in fact, their names did come out some months after the trial.

01:01:38.000 So imagine being in their position in Minneapolis thinking, okay, if I think this guy was innocent, what's going to happen to me and my family?

01:01:46.000 It only takes one crazy person to really destroy your life.

01:01:51.000 And all of those feelings of fear, if you remember at the time.

01:01:55.000 How much violence there was in the country in 2020.

01:01:57.000 It's incredibly difficult to put that out of mind when you're in the middle of a trial.

01:02:02.000 You add to that the fact that, yeah, as you said, one juror was found at a protest with a t-shirt that said, get your knee off our necks before the trial.

01:02:12.000 Obviously, that information didn't come out until after the trial.

01:02:16.000 And another juror was found with a BLM sign in his window.

01:02:20.000 The New York Times published a few months after the trial.

01:02:23.000 These are not people I would say would be unbiased jurors on a case that's literally about whether someone's knee was on a neck and very much about a BLM-related issue.

01:02:36.000 So you put all that together, and there's no way that Chauvin got a fair trial.

01:02:40.000 I think, Ben, you went to law school.

01:02:42.000 If you had that as a case study in a law school classroom...

01:02:47.000 With the names changed and the topics changed, is there any chance that anyone in class would defend that as a fair trial?

01:02:56.000 No way in the world.

01:02:58.000 So, Coleman, obviously, this has massive impact on how Americans have thought about the criminal justice system.

01:03:02.000 I was on with Stephen A. Smith recently, and he basically acknowledged that he was not willing to look at any evidence outside of the nine-minute tape, and his assumption was that...

01:03:12.000 As long as there was a knee on a neck, that meant that that was the cause of death.

01:03:15.000 I literally asked him, is there anything that could change your mind?

01:03:17.000 And he just said no, which I think has unfortunately been the way that too many people have approached criminal justice issues in the country for a really long time.

01:03:27.000 That obviously speaks to the sort of decline in racial comedy in the country.

01:03:32.000 It wasn't all that long ago.

01:03:33.000 When both black Americans and white Americans actually thought that race relations were on a good track in the United States, that was as late as 2012, 2013.

01:03:40.000 For the past 12, 13 years, they've been on the wrong track.

01:03:44.000 The numbers have been bad.

01:03:45.000 Do you see that recovering anytime soon?

01:03:47.000 And what do you think the fallout from the Chauvin-Floyd trial and conviction of Chauvin is going to be for the long term?

01:03:55.000 So I hope we're on a better track now.

01:03:58.000 What's really important is that people don't judge these police incidents based on a 30-second or even a 9-minute video.

01:04:06.000 That's the most important thing people have to learn in our social media age is that it's incredibly easy to lie with videos and that a video actually does not tell you the whole story.

01:04:17.000 For example, the other important point on Chauvin we haven't talked about is that the whole media allowed us to believe that Chauvin invented this knee-on-the-neck technique.

01:04:28.000 Because he's some kind of psychopath or something.

01:04:31.000 In fact, it was a trained technique.

01:04:33.000 And there is literally a picture from Minneapolis police training material showing how you're supposed to put a knee on the back of the neck in certain scenarios.

01:04:44.000 Not only that, they didn't allow the jury to see that picture in the trial.

01:04:49.000 So they essentially allowed the jury and definitely allowed the American public to believe that Chauvin was inventing this kind of technique that admittedly looks really rough from the point of view of a non-policeman.

01:05:04.000 But this was a trained technique.

01:05:06.000 They were trained to do this in many scenarios.

01:05:08.000 They were trained that if a suspect is talking, then they're breathing.

01:05:14.000 They are literally trained that people lie about medical emergencies to get out of arrest all the time, which is true, and that as long as they're talking, they're breathing.

01:05:23.000 Floyd was talking for five minutes.

01:05:25.000 He was talking almost up until he lost consciousness.

01:05:30.000 So I think what people have to learn from the Floyd incident is don't do what Stephen A. Smith did and just bury your head in the sand and say, I saw a video that upset me, therefore it's wrong.

01:05:42.000 Actually take the time to learn more about what happened.

01:05:45.000 And then, yeah, just don't be misled by 30-second clips on social media.

01:05:50.000 That's what led to the BLM era.

01:05:52.000 That's what led to the decline in race relations.

01:05:55.000 It's just people jumping to assumptions based on very limited sets of information.

01:06:01.000 That's Coleman Hughes.

01:06:02.000 Go check out his book, The End of Race Politics, and his podcast, Conversations with Coleman.

01:06:06.000 Coleman, really appreciate your insight and knowledge on this issue.

01:06:09.000 Great to see you.

01:06:10.000 Thanks, Ben.

01:06:12.000 All right, guys, coming up, we're going to jump into the Ben Shapiro Show mailbag.

01:06:15.000 Now, I know you've heard about it a lot, but the thing is, you can't hear any of the questions or the answers, or even ask the questions, unless you're a member.

01:06:22.000 That's just one of the amazing things that you get behind the paywall.

01:06:24.000 But it's an exclusive club, and you can only get in by joining Daily Wire+.

01:06:27.000 If you're not a member, become a member of Use Code Shapiro at checkout for two months free on All Annual Plans.

The Ben Shapiro Show - March 27, 2025

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