The Ben Shapiro Show - Piers Morgan On The Royal Family: UNCENSORED

00:00:00.000 I had an editor of my first paper, The Sun in London, and he said to me recently, the single most annoying thing about you was I used to scream at you when you got something badly wrong.

00:00:11.000 And he said, you just suck it up.

00:00:13.000 And then an hour later, you bounce into my office with a big grin on your face with a scoop that you got.

00:00:18.000 Of all the things anyone's ever said about me, I would say that is probably the best trait that I have.

00:00:25.000 is the ability to bounce back.

00:00:28.000 Piers Morgan and I have sat down together every couple of years this past decade, getting into new ideas and arguments.

00:00:33.000 By now, we've become friendly opponents, and we appreciate our ongoing conversation.

00:00:37.000 Piers began his distinguished career in media writing about culture at The Sun, where he brushed shoulders with countless celebrities, all of which advanced his own notoriety, of course.

00:00:45.000 He worked at several British newspapers before becoming a TV personality in the mid-2000s, including BBC specials, America's Got Talent.

00:00:52.000 I met him while he was working as a late-night talk show host at CNN.

00:00:55.000 He was even the winner of the Celebrity Edition of The Apprentice in 2008.

00:00:59.000 He now hosts Piers Morgan Uncensored, which I recently joined, and you should check out after this.

00:01:03.000 It was a lot of fun.

00:01:04.000 The show launched about a year ago and has been breaking news and stirring up internet controversy ever since.

00:01:08.000 Piers is a fascinating news personality to watch because, as you'll hear in the episode, Piers' politics don't quite fit into any one box.

00:01:15.000 As an example, he's a liberal, but he'll mock President Biden and wokeism.

00:01:18.000 He's also critical of former President Trump, but during Trump's term, Piers publicly defended the administration's achievements.

00:01:24.000 In March 2021, Piers lost his job on ITV's Good Morning Britain when he critiqued Prince Harry and Meghan Markle and said that Meghan Markle was a liar.

00:01:32.000 And so he lost his job for failing to back down.

00:01:34.000 We start this episode on the chaos in British life over the past few years, from Harry and Meghan to Brexit.

00:01:40.000 We'll also discuss JK Rowling defending femininity, Andrew Tate defending masculinity, and we'll trade some opposing views on the Russia-Ukraine war and what the United States should do.

00:01:59.000 Hey, hey, and welcome.

00:01:59.000 This is the Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special, and I am excited to welcome back to the program Piers Morgan.

00:02:05.000 For all of you who want to see a bunch of extra content that you're not going to get to see unless you pay for it, you actually have to subscribe over at dailywireplus.com for all of the extra content with all of our great guests.

00:02:14.000 Piers, great to see you again.

00:02:15.000 Good to see you!

00:02:16.000 Okay, so why don't we just jump in with the thing everyone wants to hear from you about, which is, of course, Prince Harry and Meghan Markle.

00:02:21.000 That is the— Do we have to?

00:02:23.000 It is a moral obligation to talk about Prince Harry and Meghan Markle.

00:02:23.000 We have to.

00:02:26.000 So, I have to say that your takes originally on Prince Harry and Meghan Markle were apparently very controversial.

00:02:32.000 I thought they were good at the time.

00:02:33.000 But those things have aged like fine wine.

00:02:35.000 Probably the best aging take, I would think, ever.

00:02:39.000 I mean, like, the greatest stake.

00:02:40.000 Like, just aged for years.

00:02:42.000 Yes.

00:02:43.000 The taste is amazing.

00:02:43.000 Because if you remember, my exact phrase that apparently was so problematic was, I wouldn't believe Meghan Markle if she read me a weather report.

00:02:52.000 And that has really stood the test of time.

00:02:56.000 So for folks who don't understand, like, how that even materialized in the first place. You have sort of an insider view on who Meghan Markle is.

00:03:02.000 And the reason that she's relevant is for two reasons. One, because she really will not just leave and take the privacy she so desperately apparently wants. And she just won't take it. 0.78

00:03:11.000 That's one reason. The other is that she is sort of emblematic of both a woke generation and an attention-seeking generation. Yes.

00:03:18.000 She is kind of the TikTok generation, but morphed into one human being.

00:03:22.000 And so when people look at her, there's some people in the United States still who are kind of warm to her claims of victimhood and this idea that she's being very emotionally open.

00:03:29.000 And there are other people looking at her like, this is the most bratty person I've ever seen in my entire life.

00:03:32.000 But you have some actual personal experiences that led up to it.

00:03:35.000 I knew her a bit before she met Harry, and she seemed perfectly normal, albeit like most L.A.

00:03:40.000 actresses I'd met.

00:03:41.000 But she seemed fine, you know, perfectly normal.

00:03:43.000 And there was a weird series of events.

00:03:45.000 One was the wedding, where she suddenly fell out spectacularly with her father, who we now know had brought her up on his own for quite a few years, actually.

00:03:54.000 And she sort of disowned him, and that all seemed a bit sort of brutal and weird, because he was just a guy out of his depth, couldn't handle the media, he was being bothered by paparazzi.

00:04:03.000 Eventually, he did a deal with one of them, where he would pose for good pictures of himself, and that was it.

00:04:09.000 So that was all going on.

00:04:10.000 And we were thinking, well, hang on, this is a bit weird.

00:04:14.000 And then, in the months and months after the wedding, you suddenly saw the pair of them more from a beloved couple.

00:04:21.000 I mean, they were.

00:04:22.000 When they got married, it was a huge celebration in the UK.

00:04:25.000 32 million pounds worth of taxpayer money was spent, and nobody begrudged them.

00:04:29.000 She was the first biracial bride in the royal family.

00:04:32.000 That was a big moment for a very multicultural country like the UK.

00:04:36.000 And all the headlines were pretty euphoric, actually.

00:04:39.000 Contrary to the narrative they're now trying to make people in America think about what was happening. 0.63

00:04:44.000 But then over the next few months, there's a series of, you could call them missteps, or you could call them classic examples of brazen, woke hypocrisy.

00:04:54.000 Two people wanting to position themselves, for example, as eco-warriors.

00:04:58.000 You know, we want you to all watch your carbon footprint.

00:05:01.000 They would say this in speeches.

00:05:03.000 And then they'd catch Elton John's private plane like a taxi service.

00:05:07.000 Or she would preach about poverty in a tweet from their royal Twitter account on the same day she had a half-a-million-dollar baby shower in New York, here, with a bunch of celebrities and flew back on Amal Clooney's plane. 0.55

00:05:22.000 And so this went on, and it was one after another.

00:05:24.000 And because of the hypocrisy element, the British media in particular were very critical, very scathing, saying, hang on a second, you don't get all the palaces and the servants and the privileged life.

00:05:36.000 For this, right, you have to toe the line, you have to do the job, which involves often quite dreary duty as a member of the royal family, but you get to be one of the biggest stars in the world on the global stage in return.

00:05:50.000 She, in particular, didn't seem to understand this.

00:05:53.000 She thought that actually being a member of her family was wearing a tiara, getting a fabulous wedding, and then doing what the hell you like.

00:05:59.000 So, they began to just do a load of stuff which annoyed people, and they got the criticism, in my estimation, they thoroughly deserved.

00:06:06.000 And at that point, they developed this victim.

00:06:09.000 narrative that they were terrible victims of this brutal, racist British media and the horrible British people who were all turning on them for no reason.

00:06:17.000 But it really wasn't like that.

00:06:19.000 And so over time, Harry's inbuilt hatred of the media, which goes back to when his mother died, I knew his mother very well, that all began to blow up again, as did his resentment of his family and the fact that William, his older brother, is the heir to the throne and he isn't.

00:06:34.000 So William will be king, Harry won't.

00:06:36.000 And then you put it all together and then you get Megxit, where they leave the country, they leave the royal family, and they wanted to have their royal cake and eat it.

00:06:44.000 They wanted to stay half in, half out, do the good stuff, get all the trinkets, make all the money out of it, but not have to do any of the duty.

00:06:50.000 And that was where you get to the place of the kind of chasm between them as a royal renegade family and the monarchy and the British royal family left behind.

00:07:00.000 And now you have them doing a Netflix series about their life, incredibly self-intrusive, The most gossipy royal book that's ever been published, including accounts of Harry's conversations with his father and his brother at Prince Philip's funeral service.

00:07:16.000 I mean, quite extraordinary.

00:07:18.000 And you just see a pair of people earning a ton of money purely by trading off trashing their family and trashing the institution of the monarchy, which afforded them their royal titles, which make them the money.

00:07:32.000 And to your point in the question, they've come to kind of encapsulate that mentality of the woke brigade, this sense of entitlement, self-righteousness, we're right, you're wrong, we don't have to play by our own rules, only you have to.

00:07:47.000 And it's all pretty grubby and tawdry, and they've now ended up as a South Park, you know, mock-a-thon, which has got us all rolling in the aisles, and probably reflects where they've now got themselves, which is they're a global laughingstock.

00:08:00.000 So, one of the things that Prince Harry's been hanging his hat on, in terms of his critique, has been, as you mentioned, the media.

00:08:06.000 And for Americans who don't follow the media over in Britain, I'm one of them, I didn't spend a lot of time with the British media, as evident from my obviously amazing interview with Andrew Neil, where I had no clue who he was.

00:08:17.000 Why don't you introduce us to sort of the British media scene?

00:08:19.000 Because it is a very rough and tumble place, in a way that— I don't think that the American media is quite the same kind of beast.

00:08:26.000 I'm not so sure.

00:08:27.000 I think what's different about America is you don't have the volume of national newspapers all concentrated in quite a small geographic space.

00:08:34.000 So, you know, you can drive through Texas, in the time it would take you to drive from one end of the UK to the other, and you still have time to spare.

00:08:41.000 So, to put the size perspective out there, that's the difference.

00:08:45.000 So, you have state newspapers, you have city newspapers, town newspapers.

00:08:49.000 You've got a few national papers, but not as many.

00:08:52.000 We have, like, 12, 13 national newspapers, all scrapping for the same 60-odd million inhabitants of the United Kingdom.

00:09:00.000 So, it's a bit more intense, I would say, is the main difference.

00:09:04.000 I think when it comes to the royals, the media are the royals' best friend and their toughest critics.

00:09:10.000 We're their best friend collectively because without the media oxygen, this royal family, a monarchy, would go the same way of most other European monarchies.

00:09:19.000 They would just disappear into oblivion.

00:09:22.000 They need the support of the people.

00:09:23.000 The people's support is reflected through the media.

00:09:26.000 It's a, you know, it's a connection between the three things, the public, And the royal family and the media and all three basically fuel each other.

00:09:36.000 So I felt that Harry's view of the media was completely clouded by the death of his mother.

00:09:40.000 I completely understand that.

00:09:42.000 I've always said that.

00:09:43.000 His mother was killed by a drunk driver in a French tunnel, not by the paparazzi who were more than a thousand yards behind them.

00:09:52.000 When it happened, they didn't cause the accident.

00:09:54.000 But his mother was constantly pursued by the paparazzi, and he saw this, and he blames the paparazzi for killing his mother, and therefore he blames the media, even though they weren't British paparazzi, actually.

00:10:05.000 So, he has this fixated hatred of the British media.

00:10:08.000 Everything is the media's fault.

00:10:09.000 And when you watch the interviews he gave with his book, it was almost comical.

00:10:13.000 You know, when they both went on Oprah Winfrey and accused the royal family directly of being racist, we all saw them do it.

00:10:19.000 They basically said a member of the royal family expressed concern about the skin color of their baby.

00:10:25.000 That's an allegation of racism.

00:10:27.000 I mean, inarguably.

00:10:29.000 And yet, two years later, Harry promoting his book, he didn't put it in the book, this incredible revelation, which caused so much damage.

00:10:36.000 He then says, well, we didn't say they were racist.

00:10:38.000 It was the media.

00:10:39.000 British media.

00:10:39.000 British tabloids.

00:10:41.000 Completely deluded.

00:10:43.000 Obviously it was from him and his wife on global television.

00:10:46.000 So there's a delusion there.

00:10:48.000 I think it's not the brightest bulb in the tulip patch, Harry, to put it politely.

00:10:54.000 I think she is very manipulative. 0.83

00:10:57.000 Meghan Markle is someone who's basically got rid of almost her entire family on her side, apart from her mother.

00:11:03.000 Her entire family on the father's side, including her father, which is incredibly sad.

00:11:08.000 And now she's wrestled Harry away from his family.

00:11:12.000 So how happy they really are in this mansion in California, when they have no connection now with any of their family, bar one or two people.

00:11:21.000 I find it very hard to believe that makes anybody happy.

00:11:24.000 So, on one level, it's sad.

00:11:26.000 Another level, it makes me quite angry, the damage they've caused to the monarchy.

00:11:30.000 I think most British people are sick and tired of them.

00:11:33.000 The polling has them now below Prince Andrew, which I didn't think would be humanly possible.

00:11:37.000 So, you know, it's a mess.

00:11:39.000 And you've got the coronation coming.

00:11:41.000 It should be an enormous moment.

00:11:43.000 in British history, because we haven't had a coronation in my lifetime.

00:11:46.000 The Queen, of course, reigned for over 70 years.

00:11:49.000 So, it should be a moment of great celebration, but what's going to happen if these two are there with their Netflix cameras in tow?

00:11:55.000 It's going to be just another part of the Meghan and Harry circus.

00:11:58.000 So, a lot of anger back home about this.

00:12:02.000 Interesting to be in America again and feel the reaction to the South Park mockumentary, because it's clear that they're losing a lot of support here as well.

00:12:11.000 So in a second, I want to ask you about — you've covered a lot of very famous people.

00:12:14.000 You mentioned Prince Harry in sort of the not-the-brightest-bulb category. 0.98

00:12:19.000 When you're covering these personalities, I want to ask you, how many of them do you think are motivated by malice, and how many of them do you think are just plain dumb?

00:12:27.000 Which is, I think, the unspoken secret of both American and maybe all of global politics. 0.53

00:12:32.000 We'll get to that in just one second.

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00:13:34.000 So you mentioned Prince Harry in terms of personality and him not being particularly bright and being kind of vapid, actually, and that was pretty evident from his book.

00:13:41.000 Any man who writes about facial cream and his Todrick in a word, I have to admit, I know a lot of words.

00:13:47.000 I did not know that word until I read it.

00:13:48.000 It's very posh. 0.99

00:13:49.000 British phrase for a man's genitalia. 0.99

00:13:51.000 Well, Hedgar, first of all, man's genitalia, I mean, that's a whole other subject. 0.99

00:13:55.000 Maybe a woman's genitalia. 1.00

00:13:56.000 Let's not even get into a man's genitalia. 1.00

00:13:57.000 Right, but first of all, yes, agree. 0.90

00:14:00.000 But, you know, this raises a question that I get a lot when I'm covering politics.

00:14:05.000 And that is people are constantly, when they watch politics, assuming that if something goes wrong or something is bad, that the reason that that's happening is because of malice.

00:14:12.000 That is because there is somebody who is ill-motivated, who's attempting to put one over on them.

00:14:16.000 Or there's a cadre of people who are extremely competent and evil who are attempting to do something.

00:14:21.000 And so something bad happens and their first move is, who is this cadre of evil people that we can go after and blame for the thing?

00:14:27.000 What you said about Prince Harry rings true to me, not just about Prince Harry, but it rings true for, I would say, 85% of the people who are in politics. 1.00

00:14:34.000 Many people are just incredibly stupid. 0.98

00:14:36.000 And this tends to burst the bubble of a lot of people who watch politics, because we like to believe that the people who lead us have some semblance of IQ and actually can rub two neurons together. 1.00

00:14:44.000 But it turns out that many of them cannot.

00:14:46.000 You've been covering politics a lot longer than I have.

00:14:48.000 Well, certainly in British politics, for example, Boris Johnson became prime minister. 0.97

00:14:52.000 Now, Boris Johnson is a bumbling buffoon, if you look at him. 0.97

00:14:56.000 I mean, he doesn't even brush his hair. 1.00

00:14:58.000 He has this ridiculous voice. 1.00

00:15:00.000 But underneath it is quite a sharp brain. 0.99

00:15:02.000 But I once interviewed him for GQ magazine. 0.83

00:15:04.000 Years ago, and I said to him, he was then planning to become London Mayor, and I said, Boris, you know, people always say to me, oh, Boris Johnson, he's a buffoon, but I always defend you and say that underneath the buffoon exterior lies quite a smart, calculating, political brain. 0.84

00:15:18.000 And he said, well, they're very guided appears, he said, but you must consider the possibility that lurking beneath the buffoon exterior is an actual buffoon.

00:15:28.000 You may not have been joking, but I think that, yeah, look, I think the reality in Britain, I'm not quite sure how it works on the pay structure in America, other than to run for president is very expensive, so it immediately rules out vast swathes of the people.

00:15:40.000 In Britain, we pay our politicians a meagre amount of money comparative.

00:15:44.000 You know, to be a top politician, you might get $100,000 a year.

00:15:48.000 You and I know that is not enough to attract high-caliber people, unless they really see political life as an absolute vocation.

00:15:55.000 They're not doing it for the money.

00:15:57.000 And it also encourages, of course, people to be then corrupt.

00:16:00.000 Because if you're earning very, very little money, but you have access to power, then that is the lethal cocktail.

00:16:06.000 Where the temptation is there, you don't have money yourself, you can make it by being corrupt.

00:16:11.000 So that, I think, is always a self-defeating thing.

00:16:13.000 I would personally pay politicians in Britain Three or four times what they're being paid.

00:16:17.000 It wouldn't be popular in the short term with the public, but you would attract a higher caliber of person to be political figures.

00:16:24.000 I think most of the politicians I've met in British sides, certainly in the last 10 years, have been shockingly mediocre.

00:16:31.000 I mean, just on an intellectual level, incredibly lame. 0.81

00:16:36.000 Just not very bright people.

00:16:37.000 You know, the tulip patch is bare, to continue the analogy.

00:16:41.000 In America, I think there's probably a slightly higher standard, but, you know, not much.

00:16:46.000 I mean, I don't think you look at the American cabinet like you do the British cabinet and think, these are the brightest people in the country.

00:16:52.000 You think these are the people dumb enough to actually wanna do this because the media scrutiny is intense, drives a lot of people away from it.

00:16:59.000 And it's a tough, hard job and the rewards aren't great. 0.97

00:17:03.000 As you actually end up in the White House, the rewards aren't great.

00:17:05.000 So I think the system itself doesn't lend itself either in this country or in my country to attracting the best people.

00:17:13.000 When if you think about it, that's really bad because what you want in a democratic society is that the people in power are actually the brightest people in the country, making decisions that affect everybody else.

00:17:24.000 So, it seems to me, you have a sort of...

00:17:28.000 Far too much mediocrity, not enough great talent.

00:17:31.000 And the victim of that is the populace that then has decisions taken that affect their lives directly by people who aren't very competent.

00:17:39.000 So, I want to take a step back here and have you explain to me the current state of British politics, because I look at this from afar, and I have, you know, sort of baseline-level knowledge of British politics and British political history.

00:17:50.000 I cannot for the life of me understand what is going on.

00:17:52.000 Meaning, I look— Well, let me explain to you.

00:17:53.000 The central fulcrum of everything was Brexit.

00:17:57.000 So, David Cameron was Prime Minister.

00:17:59.000 He'd been Prime Minister for quite a few years.

00:18:01.000 He was kind of mediocre, but chugged along, and everyone was, like, fine with him.

00:18:05.000 He wasn't an inflammatory guy.

00:18:07.000 He was quite charming, personally.

00:18:08.000 He spoke well, he was eloquent, and so on.

00:18:11.000 But then, under pressure from the right wing of his party, he suddenly decided to capitulate and allow a referendum on whether Britain should stay in the European Union.

00:18:21.000 And I voted against it.

00:18:23.000 I thought it was a crazy thing to do.

00:18:25.000 I think there's a strength in numbers, and I think the United States of Europe, if you like, is far more powerful together than it would be individually.

00:18:35.000 My side lost, and the Leave vote won, led by Nigel Farage and other characters like that.

00:18:41.000 And I respected that result.

00:18:42.000 I respect democracy.

00:18:43.000 That was the will of the people.

00:18:45.000 Nearly 17 million people voted for this.

00:18:47.000 It was an enormous vote.

00:18:49.000 The whole election, the referendum was enormous.

00:18:52.000 But it was incredibly divisive.

00:18:54.000 It was like Trump being made president here.

00:18:55.000 It split the country in two and made it very visceral.

00:18:59.000 Then you have the explosion of social media, which is compounding with tribalism on both sides, and it all gets very fractious.

00:19:05.000 And the Conservative Party then had to try and make this work, which has proven to be incredibly difficult, because Brexit actually doesn't really work.

00:19:13.000 So it sounds good, you get your freedom, your autonomy from the rest of Europe, blah, blah, blah, but in reality, it's painful and expensive, and people are fed up with it already.

00:19:22.000 Doesn't mean it won't work, but it means at the moment, we're now seven years after that referendum took place, and there's no sign of it working.

00:19:29.000 So eventually the clock's gonna tick, and people will realise we shouldn't have done this, I think.

00:19:35.000 But the Conservative Party went on a sort of weird journey of leaders who were either completely incompetent, shockingly mediocre, so we had Theresa May, who was pretty awful, then Boris Johnson, Who was a buffoon, who didn't think rules applied to him, very Trump-like in his way he went about his leadership.

00:19:59.000 During COVID, he was having lots of parties allowed in his Downing Street home.

00:20:04.000 He says, most without his knowledge, but certainly for one, he was fined by the police for knowing about it, whilst dictating the rest of us had to be locked down and so on.

00:20:11.000 So he then got bounced out over a slew of scandals, really.

00:20:15.000 It was replaced by Liz Truss, who came in out of nowhere, really, and said, right, here's what we're going to do to fix everything.

00:20:22.000 I know it's a terrible financial climate at the moment.

00:20:25.000 I know we're coming out of a pandemic that's been ruinous for the economy.

00:20:28.000 But what we're going to do is slash taxes, and that's going to lead to enormous growth immediately, and we're all going to be fine.

00:20:34.000 It was like this fairy godmother had come along to sprinkle a bit of dust. 1.00

00:20:38.000 And of course, it all sounded great.

00:20:40.000 Right?

00:20:41.000 Who doesn't want to see taxes slashed? 0.58

00:20:43.000 The trouble was she had no way of paying for it, and didn't say how she paid for it.

00:20:46.000 So when she did this, the markets tanked, the pound tanked against the dollar to a record low, and she had to resign after 44 days.

00:20:54.000 The Daily Star tabloid newspaper actually had a lettuce, and they put the lettuce there and said, we'll see who lasts longest.

00:21:01.000 The lettuce outlived Liz Truss in the last 10 days, which gives you some idea of the farce and also how ridiculous the whole thing was.

00:21:10.000 And then she got replaced by the person she'd beaten in the previous leadership campaign, Rishi Sunak, former Goldman Sachs guy, knows the economy, very serious.

00:21:18.000 He had predicted everything that would happen if she won, and it happened.

00:21:22.000 So it's been a farcical ride, really, but the fulcrum at the start of it, for all of this chaos, was Brexit.

00:21:29.000 Right, so the reason that I was confused about all of this is because I look at the Conservative Party in Britain, which is sort of a more moderate version of the Republican Party in the United States in a lot of different ways, and I don't see a lot of sort of unifying principles inside the Conservative Party.

00:21:42.000 So you had Boris Johnson, who is a big spender, who is an environmentalist, like a very green leader, somebody who was socially left-wing.

00:21:51.000 So how was that wildly different from many of the people he was opposing?

00:21:55.000 And then you saw Liz Truss come in and she proposed what is, by most accounts, a fairly conservative political program.

00:22:01.000 I'm of the belief that the Bank of England essentially purposefully tanked her prime ministership because they certainly could have held it up for another couple of weeks, but they decided not to.

00:22:09.000 They would prefer to allow the bond market to basically— Well, they kind of freak when the market's freak because the problem was she just went She hadn't costed it out. 0.98

00:22:16.000 She didn't say, here's how we pay for this. 0.95

00:22:18.000 And as you know, when markets see uncertainty, then they freak, right?

00:22:22.000 So maybe the Bank of England could have done, but actually, I don't blame them because it was total carnage.

00:22:28.000 Well, in any case, I have a hard time seeing what exactly the Conservative Party stands for.

00:22:33.000 And so you're starting to see this massive upswing for a Labour Party that was basically left for dead about three years ago, when it was led by Jeremy Corbyn, who's an actual communist nutjob.

00:22:44.000 And now, of course, he's been supplanted by sort of a mystery figure, almost.

00:22:51.000 Former head of the public prosecutions, a very smart lawyer, quite a dull guy.

00:22:55.000 I mean, by common consent, he's not Mr. Charisma, but he's... He's actually pushing, from what I see, some pretty strong anti-crime policies.

00:23:02.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:23:03.000 He's talking about upping the police in rural areas, for example.

00:23:04.000 Yeah, I mean, it's very hard now to distinguish between this Labour Party and the Conservative Party.

00:23:10.000 Really.

00:23:10.000 There's really not much difference between them.

00:23:13.000 If you actually changed their names and had them saying the same stuff, it wouldn't sound that different.

00:23:18.000 The difference was Truss, who tried to be old-school conservative, but she evoked the spirit of Margaret Thatcher.

00:23:25.000 But she did it, I think, historically incorrectly.

00:23:28.000 Margaret Thatcher, when she first came into power, and she was leader, she won three elections, but when she first came in, she inherited a very difficult economy.

00:23:38.000 And she actually increased some taxation to get the economy back onto a level keel. 1.00

00:23:43.000 Then she cut income tax in particular significantly and became known as the big tax cutter. 0.89

00:23:48.000 But she understood you've got to get the economy stable first.

00:23:51.000 This trust pretended to be Margaret Thatcher, but actually ideologically she just got her history wrong.

00:23:57.000 Rishi Sunak realized this, and I think, well, therefore, he's probably the best person right now to try and guide us to a more even place.

00:24:04.000 I interviewed him recently.

00:24:05.000 He's a very smart guy, takes the job very seriously.

00:24:08.000 You're not going to get him partying all night long and so on.

00:24:11.000 I mean, what is the heart of this Conservative Party?

00:24:11.000 But you're right.

00:24:14.000 You wouldn't recognize it.

00:24:15.000 You really wouldn't recognize it.

00:24:17.000 You could really interview the head of a Labour Party and Rishi Sunak right now, and they wouldn't sound significantly different.

00:24:25.000 So looking at the political situation and looking at sort of the broader overall situation for Great Britain, what do you think are the biggest problems facing Great Britain?

00:24:32.000 I mean, we see these sort of system-wide problems in the West.

00:24:35.000 Brexit is the biggest problem, which is in addition to all the other problems facing every other country.

00:24:40.000 Every country was hit by the pandemic.

00:24:42.000 In varying degrees, depending on how they handled it.

00:24:45.000 But Britain has got the slowest-growing economy of any of the major European countries because of Brexit.

00:24:52.000 So, unfortunately, all roads really lead back to that.

00:24:56.000 Other stuff has compounded it.

00:24:58.000 The cost-of-living crisis, the energy crisis because of the Ukraine war.

00:25:02.000 All these things have had an effect.

00:25:04.000 Of course they have.

00:25:04.000 But they're no different to any other country.

00:25:06.000 The French have that, the Germans have that, the Spanish have that, the Italians have it.

00:25:10.000 What distinguishes Britain, in terms of its woeful economic performance comparative to most of those countries, is Brexit and the fallout of this severance from the EU, which has turned out, by common consent even for many people who voted to leave, so far to be a failure.

00:25:27.000 So do you think that we're going to see, and I'm going to ask you this in a second, a sort of wave of actual regulatory cutting, a wave of making it easier in the economy, not just in Britain, but in Europe overall, and also a wave of conservatism in terms of the spending?

00:25:42.000 Because obviously we're in the middle of this massive inflationary cycle that has eaten all of Europe, has eaten the United States as well.

00:25:46.000 It's pretty much gone everywhere.

00:25:47.000 You're seeing the Bank of England raise interest rates at historic levels at this point.

00:25:53.000 Are we about to see sort of the rubber hit the road when it comes to economic policy?

00:25:57.000 I'll ask you about that in just one second.

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00:27:00.000 Okay, so talking about sort of the economic problems that are faced by Great Britain and also by the continent as a whole.

00:27:06.000 We've basically, I think, in the West been living in a dream factory for a long time.

00:27:10.000 Globalization covered a lot of ills.

00:27:12.000 It allowed us to outsource a lot of our problems.

00:27:14.000 It allowed us to bring down costs while simultaneously spending oodles and oodles of money that actually don't exist.

00:27:18.000 And now we're starting to see inflation, not starting in the last several years, raging out of control.

00:27:23.000 It seems like we may be entering a bit of a ...to use a British history phrase, a winter of discontent here for all of Europe and for the United States as well.

00:27:30.000 What do you see as sort of the economic future here?

00:27:32.000 I think the next year is going to be very difficult.

00:27:34.000 It may not be quite as bad as some of the biggest doom-mongers feared.

00:27:38.000 The main reason for that, though, is a...

00:27:41.000 A situation which remains extremely flexible, which is the Ukraine war.

00:27:46.000 So the energy pressure on energy prices has eased in the last few weeks and months, because it looks like the Ukraine war is now in for a longer haul.

00:27:56.000 It's not as unstable a situation as it seemed at the start, which created all the energy crisis.

00:28:01.000 But it wouldn't take a lot, as we know.

00:28:03.000 You know, if Putin was to suddenly use a tactical nuclear weapon, as he keeps threatening to, for example, what impact would that have on the global economy, on energy prices and so on?

00:28:14.000 So, I think it is actually a lot more unstable than people think.

00:28:17.000 That's why I think you're seeing the markets very schizophrenic.

00:28:20.000 They're up and down, up and down, up and down.

00:28:21.000 Nobody's really quite sure what to make of this.

00:28:24.000 So, I think it's very hard to predict. 0.98

00:28:25.000 I mean, all the ones who are paid to predict these things have been made to look a bit stupid in the last few years. 0.92

00:28:30.000 So, I think it's hard to predict. 0.90

00:28:32.000 But it really depends, I think, on certain big things from the UK point of view.

00:28:37.000 One, can Brexit be made to work?

00:28:40.000 And I think that's a massive if.

00:28:42.000 There's no sign of it so far.

00:28:44.000 Secondly, what will happen with Ukraine?

00:28:46.000 Because that is really dictating a lot of the pressure, which is on many countries now.

00:28:52.000 Not the United States, actually, because you're not as dependent, of course, on energy as other countries.

00:28:57.000 But look at Germany, who were warned repeatedly by Donald Trump.

00:29:01.000 To their face in video clips you can see online.

00:29:04.000 You know, he warned them, your reliance on Russian energy is madness.

00:29:08.000 And they all ignored him, and now look, he was right.

00:29:12.000 Between that and all of Europe deciding to listen to the ramblings of a Swedish teenager about energy policy, it turns out that you're going to cut yourself off from your economic base.

00:29:20.000 This does raise the question of Ukraine.

00:29:21.000 So you've been obviously extremely hawkish on Western policy in Ukraine.

00:29:25.000 There's a sort of split on the right in the United States, at least with regard to Ukraine.

00:29:29.000 More isolationist sentiments cropping up on the right.

00:29:31.000 There's some on the left as well.

00:29:32.000 But that's not unusual.

00:29:34.000 The United States has always had a very strong isolationist sentiment because we're geographically incredibly lucky.

00:29:38.000 We're surrounded on two sides by Canada and on the other side by Mexico and on two sides by ocean.

00:29:43.000 So we can basically isolate ourselves over here.

00:29:45.000 We can be autarkic and have all of our resources.

00:29:49.000 We're fine.

00:29:49.000 The United States is always in good shape comparatively to the rest of the world because of all of that.

00:29:54.000 However, you know, the case that hawks have made is that if the United States does not continue to fund the Ukraine war, that Russia will end up winning.

00:30:03.000 The converse case, which I think is sort of a moderate peacenik case, moderate dovish case, is one that I've made on occasion and Henry Kissinger has made.

00:30:11.000 And what that is, is we all know where this is going.

00:30:13.000 We know what the end point of this war is.

00:30:14.000 And the end point of this war is very likely that Russia is going to end up retaining large parts of Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk.

00:30:20.000 And everybody knows that that's what the end point here is going to be.

00:30:22.000 I don't think that's true.

00:30:24.000 I don't think that's true.

00:30:25.000 I think that that would have been the case early on.

00:30:28.000 I think that's when Kissinger was saying this.

00:30:30.000 I'm not sure when he last said this, but nobody expected Ukraine to still be in the battle in the way that they are, or doing as well as they are, or for the Russians to be struggling militarily as they are.

00:30:42.000 And the longer it's gone on, the more I think the Ukrainians, inspired by Zelensky, who's not a perfect individual by any means, You know, he was a former TV producer, you know, comedian, did Dancing with the Stars in Ukraine, and suddenly he's propelled into becoming a wartime president.

00:31:00.000 It reminded me a little bit of Winston Churchill in that sense, where Churchill was a bit of a joke before World War II.

00:31:05.000 You know, denounced by his party, flip-flop between parties, no one really took him seriously.

00:31:10.000 And then when confronted with the biggest challenge of his lifetime, he rose to that challenge magnificently.

00:31:15.000 That's the way I see Zelensky.

00:31:17.000 But Churchill wasn't perfect either, but he came At the right moment at the right time.

00:31:21.000 So I think the fundamental importance to me of why Equimus win is for the reasons that you just articulated.

00:31:28.000 Vladimir Putin wants to restore the Soviet Union.

00:31:31.000 He wants to be a modern-day czar presiding over the once great Soviet Union again.

00:31:38.000 And I think he smelt weakness.

00:31:39.000 I think he looked to what happened with the Afghanistan withdrawal.

00:31:43.000 And I think he thought, hmm, no Trump.

00:31:46.000 Biden looks weak, threw the towel in in Afghanistan, didn't seem to care.

00:31:50.000 Now's the time to test the Americans. 0.69

00:31:53.000 Because the Ukrainians can't do this without America.

00:31:56.000 You know, they could do it without the British, they could do it without the Germans, without the French. 0.98

00:32:00.000 But let's be completely clear, you're the number one superpower in the world.

00:32:03.000 You still have, I think, 50% of the world's military hardware.

00:32:07.000 And the Ukrainians need the American support or they can't win.

00:32:12.000 But I think they can win with enough American support.

00:32:15.000 So the question then becomes, why should America keep investing the money?

00:32:18.000 Well, the alternative is you let Putin win.

00:32:21.000 Win being, he takes the existing Crimea, which he took in 2014, takes large swathes of the Donbass, and he just takes the land he wants. 0.84

00:32:30.000 A, if that happens, he won't stop there.

00:32:32.000 I'm absolutely certain of it.

00:32:33.000 He didn't stop after Crimea.

00:32:35.000 Why would he stop if he wins another chunk of land of Ukraine?

00:32:38.000 But secondly, when did Americans, particularly Republicans, When did they actually think it was a good thing that a dictator like Vladimir Putin invaded a democratic country in this way, with such impunity and such a barbaric way, attacking maternity hospitals and so on?

00:32:58.000 And just thought, actually, that's not our concern.

00:33:01.000 It's never been the American way. 0.94

00:33:03.000 And I compare it not to the second Iraq war, which was a fiasco fought over a false pretext that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and a false link between him and 9-11 when there wasn't one.

00:33:16.000 But the first Gulf War, When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, it was not a NATO country, and America was right in there, was storming Norman, leading the way to kick him out and restore the sovereignty of Kuwait.

00:33:30.000 And I don't remember many Republicans saying that was a terrible thing to do.

00:33:33.000 In fact, quite the opposite.

00:33:35.000 They thought it was a great thing to do, and there was great American pride in the military operation to kick Saddam out of Kuwait.

00:33:42.000 The only difference between that and Ukraine Is that, A, it's more important, Ukraine, strategically and geographically, I think.

00:33:51.000 And secondly, Vladimir Putin has nuclear weapons.

00:33:54.000 Well, it's that second factor that I think is leading a lot of people to take pause.

00:33:58.000 Meaning that, let's say, that he gets the deal that I proposed before.

00:34:01.000 That he comes to the table, he says, I'll cut it out.

00:34:05.000 Why should the Ukrainians give him an inch? 1.00

00:34:07.000 Well, it's not about why the Ukrainians should give him an inch. 0.91

00:34:09.000 It's why the United States should back the Ukrainians in not giving him an inch. 0.98

00:34:12.000 Why should the Americans encourage Ukraine to give up an inch?

00:34:15.000 To avoid the worst scenario, which would be the use of a tactical nuclear weapon.

00:34:19.000 What would you feel if Vladimir Putin threatened American mainland with nuclear weapons?

00:34:22.000 Believe me, on an emotional level, I totally understand where Ukrainians are coming from and I'm rooting for them.

00:34:26.000 Well, what would you feel then?

00:34:27.000 What would all the American Peaceniks at the moment.

00:34:29.000 They want to give up the land.

00:34:30.000 Listen, there's no question.

00:34:32.000 Peaceniks invaded Montana.

00:34:34.000 If one missile... You're saying, oh yeah, we'll give them half of Montana.

00:34:36.000 If one missile, but the United States is also the most powerful country in the world that's not reliant on anybody else in terms of our own self-defense and preservation.

00:34:42.000 If you're an American, your first question is not, how do Ukrainians feel about Ukraine?

00:34:46.000 Your first question is, what is in America's interest?

00:34:48.000 And so the argument that I've made is that overall American foreign policy has been quite Wilsonian in sort of intent for the last century.

00:34:55.000 And that's not been great in a lot of different ways.

00:34:59.000 The sort of idea that should be pursued is that realism in America's interest can coincide with things like military support for Ukraine in order to achieve America's interests.

00:35:09.000 America's interests in Ukraine are, as you mentioned, not allowing dictators to run roughshod over borders, maintaining an American-led sphere of influence that guarantees freedom of waterways, for example, freedom of trade.

00:35:20.000 Restraint in terms of military use of force that threatens all the supply lines so we don't end up back in sort of a 2020 situation.

00:35:25.000 Why would Putin's ability to have this nuclear arsenal change your thinking about how you deal with it?

00:35:31.000 When did a nuclear deterrent become something that a dictator could use as a stick to threaten people?

00:35:38.000 Well, I mean, throughout the entire Cold War.

00:35:40.000 I mean, the entire Cold War, the United States didn't go against the law specifically because of that, right?

00:35:43.000 Why would he launch a nuclear strike, knowing it would lead to his immediate If he believes that the alternative is his immediate evisceration, meaning that if he's pushed all the way to the wall, the theory goes... You think Russian generals would go along with that?

00:35:56.000 Knowing that them and all their families immediately die?

00:35:58.000 Well, I mean, I'm not sure that it's worth the bet, but that's the question for America.

00:36:05.000 He wins, and he wins big.

00:36:06.000 Does he though?

00:36:08.000 I mean, if he loses 200,000 troops in Ukraine, which is what he will lose.

00:36:12.000 Right, but China, China look at that, and they've got nuclear weapons, and they go, oh, okay, so all you've got to do is threaten to use nuclear weapons, and the Americans back off.

00:36:20.000 None.

00:36:21.000 The world's biggest superpower, with the biggest military, will not engage if you threaten them with nuclear weapons.

00:36:28.000 And everyone's got a weapon as a deterrent, turns around and goes, actually, we're going to use them.

00:36:34.000 So what are you going to do about it?

00:36:35.000 Once you blink on this, and I think it's a really fundamental point, it is basically a form of cowardice to say, if somebody threatens to do something, the school bully threatens to punch you in the face, And you have the ability to defend yourself.

00:36:48.000 You've got the same weapons that he has.

00:36:50.000 If you allow that bully to win, and you back off because you're worried about what he may do to you, everybody loses.

00:36:57.000 And America loses big time.

00:36:59.000 And China looks at it and goes, OK, now we go into Taiwan.

00:37:03.000 That's my thought process.

00:37:04.000 I understand.

00:37:05.000 The question becomes, what does the off-ramp look like?

00:37:07.000 Because what the Biden administration has said, as long as it takes and we don't know what the off-ramp looks like.

00:37:11.000 And the question becomes for Americans, OK, so How long does this go on?

00:37:15.000 We're now seeing some unintended side effects.

00:37:17.000 China is suggesting that they're going to get involved by shipping weapons via Moscow and all the rest in an obvious attempt to sort of bring this thing to a conclusion and get everybody to the table because China doesn't like what's happening very much either.

00:37:28.000 It was all fun and games when Russia was becoming a proxy oil state for them. 0.90

00:37:31.000 When Russia's actually on the verge of possible collapse, then China starts to worry a little bit more because they're on their border.

00:37:37.000 So the question becomes, what does that off-ramp look like?

00:37:40.000 And does there have to be some off-ramp that allows Putin— I don't think you give him an inch.

00:37:45.000 So then what is the outcome?

00:37:46.000 An inch of territory.

00:37:47.000 And by the way, every American I know, every American I know, if I said to them Vladimir Putin invades any part of the United States and takes an inch of territory and claims it as his own, Every American to a man and woman that I know would say, absolutely not in a million years, I'd rather die.

00:38:07.000 So, number one.

00:38:08.000 In other words, there's a moral inconsistency because that's Ukrainian position. 0.96

00:38:13.000 Why the hell should they give up even one inch of their land to this murderous dictator?

00:38:19.000 The point that I'm making here is that I totally agree with Ukrainians who say they don't want to give up one inch of land.

00:38:23.000 I'm just not sure that America has to agree with Ukrainians that what's in America's best interest is not for the Ukrainians to give up one issue.

00:38:28.000 Well, only if America cares about freedom and democracy and saving a sovereign country from being taken over by a Russian dictator. 0.68

00:38:33.000 Well, I mean, they've been saved, meaning Ukraine— Also, you're in it— Prior to this— Prior to this— You've already committed $110 billion to this, right?

00:38:40.000 So— Yes.

00:38:40.000 You just say, OK, well, we're just going to write that off and give up.

00:38:44.000 What do you mean, give up?

00:38:44.000 I mean— Well, that's the alternative.

00:38:46.000 The original— No, the original goal for Putin in Ukraine was to take Kiev.

00:38:49.000 It wasn't to take Luhansk and ask.

00:38:51.000 Why should he— He already had Luhansk and ask.

00:38:51.000 Right.

00:38:52.000 Why should he get any of it?

00:38:53.000 What do you mean, why should he get?

00:38:54.000 He had it before this war began.

00:38:55.000 Why should he be allowed to grab any of it?

00:38:57.000 To prevent further loss of life, further American expenditure, possible use of tactical nuclear weapons, China getting involved indirectly.

00:39:03.000 So fear.

00:39:05.000 Well, I mean, that's always foreign policy.

00:39:07.000 I don't know, actually, no.

00:39:09.000 Any negotiated end.

00:39:10.000 Virtually all wars end with a negotiated end.

00:39:11.000 World War II, Winston Churchill was encouraged to do exactly this.

00:39:14.000 He was encouraged to basically give up, right?

00:39:17.000 Because the losses would be too great.

00:39:18.000 Because the damage that the Nazis would do would be too overwhelming.

00:39:22.000 It wasn't worth it.

00:39:24.000 Do the deal, Winston.

00:39:26.000 Do a deal.

00:39:27.000 Give up.

00:39:28.000 And he absolutely refused to give an inch to the Nazis. 0.85

00:39:32.000 And in the end, he managed to make people believe in Britain that we could win.

00:39:38.000 And Zelensky has been doing the same thing with his people.

00:39:42.000 Well, they've gone from a terrified populace to now thinking a year in, You know what, we can win this. That's an incredibly powerful thing, which we had in the UK back in World War II, and the Americans helped us win that war, obviously, significantly.

00:39:57.000 And Ukraine needs America to step up now and finish the job. 0.74

00:40:01.000 And the job, the end game, is that Ukraine do not give up an inch, and Putin is seen to lose.

00:40:08.000 I don't think in a moment he's ever going to unleash a nuclear attack on anybody because if he did that's the end of him and Russia and everything he's built up and everything he cares cares about, his family and all his possessions. He's a very materialistic guy. He's built up a huge personal fortune of yachts and cars and mansions and so on. He's not an Islamic fundamentalist terrorist who is quite happy to lose his life in the cause. He's not that kind of person. So why should we be barrelled by fear in the face of this guy simply because

00:40:38.000 It's not really fear of him as much as it is fear of the unknown.

00:40:41.000 I think it's fear of him.

00:40:43.000 It's fear of him.

00:40:44.000 He's the guy with the finger on the button.

00:40:45.000 Not necessarily.

00:40:46.000 I mean, so to quote Kissinger again, one of the things that we can't foresee is what happens if Putin goes down in Russia.

00:40:52.000 Let's say Putin goes down, who comes next?

00:40:54.000 This is one of the concerns, is Putin loses— Could it be a lot worse?

00:40:54.000 Right?

00:40:57.000 Yes.

00:40:58.000 I doubt it.

00:40:59.000 I've read that.

00:41:00.000 I doubt that.

00:41:00.000 But again— I mean, they could lose territorial control of the entire state, and then you have 2,500 nuclear weapons rolling around.

00:41:06.000 You don't take on the school bully in the playground because there's another— Hang on, let me finish the analogy.

00:41:11.000 There's another big lump in the playground that might come along, it might hit you even harder.

00:41:15.000 No, at some point, you've got to give the school bully a smack in the face.

00:41:19.000 Has he not been given a smack in the face?

00:41:20.000 He's lost 150,000 troops.

00:41:20.000 No.

00:41:22.000 It's the worst losses they've had since World War II.

00:41:24.000 He doesn't care about that.

00:41:25.000 Nor does he care about the sanctions, which have been completely ineffective.

00:41:28.000 Because of the squeeze on energy, he's been able to make a ton of money out of energy.

00:41:32.000 So, the sanctions have a word, at all.

00:41:35.000 And on the battlefield, he's lost a ton of his soldiers.

00:41:40.000 He doesn't care about that.

00:41:41.000 He's got a ton more.

00:41:42.000 Tens of millions more he can bring on to the battlefield.

00:41:46.000 So that's not the way that you deal with someone like Putin.

00:41:50.000 I think the way you deal with him is the way the Americans have been doing, but time to step it up, with the help of the Europeans, by the way.

00:41:55.000 Shouldn't be just America on its own ever.

00:41:57.000 Britain has led the way in Europe, and we should be doing more.

00:41:59.000 Germany should step up more.

00:42:01.000 France should step up more.

00:42:02.000 Concerted effort here now.

00:42:04.000 to give Zelensky the airpower he's been asking for, to give him more tanks, to give him more firepower, and to actually repel the Russians from Ukraine.

00:42:13.000 And that is the only way you deal with a dictator.

00:42:16.000 And anything that is reductive from that, giving him an inch of new land to steal like he did Crimea, I think is a surrender. 0.88

00:42:24.000 And I don't think the Ukrainian spirit would allow that. 1.00

00:42:27.000 And I don't think the American spirit has ever been that you give a dictator like Vladimir Putin a win in that way.

00:42:34.000 Why would you?

00:42:35.000 Okay, so in just a second, I want to shift topic, and I want to talk to you about another controversial area, and that is the handling of COVID, which has varied across the pond.

00:42:42.000 We'll get to that in just one second.

00:42:43.000 But first, the government, they keep raising the interest rates because it's the only tool they have to keep inflation under control.

00:42:49.000 So far, not working all that great.

00:42:51.000 It turns out, if you just keep spending money, that's a terrible way to get out of inflation.

00:42:55.000 You've seen the impact on the stock market.

00:42:56.000 You've seen the impact on your savings.

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00:43:41.000 Diversification is just a thing that smart investors do.

00:43:46.000 Okay, so let's get into more controversy.

00:43:50.000 This is fun.

00:43:50.000 So let's talk about COVID policy.

00:43:52.000 So COVID policy, obviously, has been an area of tremendous controversy.

00:43:56.000 It's been my opinion that, frankly, a lot of the institutions that promised that they were going to be able to actually handle things were blowing up data that they didn't actually have.

00:44:04.000 I agree.

00:44:05.000 Many of them were exaggerating the power of their ability to control this thing, that many of them were pushing things like mask mandates, which were Wildly ineffective, that the promises that were made on behalf of the vaccine, well, I tend to be what would pass for moderate on the right side of the aisle these days.

00:44:20.000 I believe that the vaccine was good for people who are elderly and obese to take.

00:44:24.000 But I myself, I was 37 when I took the vaccine.

00:44:29.000 And at the time, the reason that I took it is because it had been promoted by the federal government and by Pfizer that this thing was 99% effective in preventing transmission.

00:44:35.000 And my parents were with us and they were above the age of 65.

00:44:38.000 And so I figured, okay, well, A friend of mine in his early 50s is still in a coma after nearly three years now because there was no vaccine and it would have saved his life.

00:44:47.000 So I believe the vaccines worked.

00:44:50.000 I think what didn't work was the certainty that some of the data was put forward to the public about I'll give an example where I did a complete U-turn, which I have no problem talking about or admitting, because I was too self-righteous in believing the scientific data.

00:45:07.000 So when they said, for example, that if you don't have the vaccine, you can transmit the virus, but if you do have it, you can't, I believed them.

00:45:16.000 And because I believed them, because they were so emphatic that that was the case, that if you got the jab, you couldn't transmit it, I then got very censorious about people who didn't have the jab.

00:45:27.000 Very censorious.

00:45:28.000 And there are tweets of mine which I've left up, and I get reminded of them regularly, and quite rightly, because I believed the science, and the science was wrong.

00:45:37.000 And because I believed the science and then got too emotionally overwrought by all this, I was saying, well, then people should be punished if they don't have the vaccine.

00:45:46.000 Obviously, I don't think that now, because once it was established that that was wrong, once it was established if you had the vaccine, it made little difference to your ability to transmit the virus as to whether you didn't, then it becomes a matter of personal choice.

00:45:59.000 But it wasn't when I was being censorious, but it taught me a lesson.

00:46:02.000 In these health crises in particular, don't be too censorious, because you can't be certain they're right.

00:46:09.000 So, actually, I wish I had been more critical of the scientists than I was.

00:46:14.000 I wish I had.

00:46:16.000 It doesn't mean to say I would become an anti-vaxxer, because I believe the vaccines were incredibly effective and saved millions of lives.

00:46:22.000 And I will always believe that, and I think most scientists agree with that.

00:46:26.000 But it does mean that, you know, for instance, masks at the start.

00:46:29.000 The reason we were told the masks were ineffective and shouldn't be used was because they actually wanted to use them around the world for health care workers, right?

00:46:38.000 So they didn't want the public running out and taking all the masks when they weren't enough to go around.

00:46:42.000 That was the real reason.

00:46:43.000 I think they lied to the people.

00:46:46.000 They lied and said the masks were ineffective.

00:46:48.000 Then they said the masks were incredibly effective.

00:46:50.000 Now I see people wandering around New York outside wearing masks. 0.99

00:46:53.000 I think they're nuts. 0.99

00:46:55.000 Completely nuts. 0.98

00:46:56.000 So there's people like, you know, it's like the Japanese soldiers, you know, 20 years later out of the World War II still wandering around saying, is it over yet?

00:47:02.000 It's like, it's completely crazy.

00:47:04.000 The pandemic has gone.

00:47:06.000 It's now just another, I've had various family members have had COVID in the last two, three weeks.

00:47:11.000 It's like getting a bad cold, right?

00:47:12.000 So, but I learned a lesson.

00:47:15.000 And I think it's an important lesson which I would now try and use to advise other people, which is, if it's scientific guidance in the middle of a really serious crisis, don't believe government modelers.

00:47:31.000 who might have a vested interest in wanting just to take the easy option, shutting everything down.

00:47:36.000 If they are going to shut everything down, put huge pressure on those government bodies to make sure that people who have other things outside of COVID get properly taken care of.

00:47:45.000 Because now the secondary wave of this pandemic are all the people who didn't get treatment for cancer and health disease and so on, which is, I think, disgraceful and should never have happened.

00:47:54.000 But also, be able to look at yourself.

00:47:58.000 On any side of this.

00:48:00.000 And I would say anti-vaxxers who think the whole vaccine thing was a scam and, you know, you can get your brain chipped by Bill Gates.

00:48:07.000 I mean, all that stuff is lunacy. 0.69

00:48:09.000 So I'm not talking about the lunatic fringes of this debate.

00:48:12.000 I'm just talking about the way I behaved, I think, was wrong.

00:48:17.000 I think I shouldn't have been so censorious because now I can realize the stuff I was being censorious about, I gained my self-righteousness from false information.

00:48:28.000 And I'm not afraid to admit that.

00:48:29.000 I actually think it's quite powerful to admit that and to say I was wrong.

00:48:33.000 And so when people say to me on Twitter all day long as they do, you know, well, there you go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, fine.

00:48:38.000 But if you are one of the anti-vaxxers who really are anti-vaccines full stop, I don't want to hear from you either.

00:48:43.000 So I'm talking really about the more moderate people who quite rightly Well, more skeptical than I was about things like transmission, because they were right and I was wrong.

00:48:52.000 So I have many of the same issues.

00:48:54.000 Obviously, I encourage people to take the vaccine in the very early days, rooted in the transmission stuff.

00:48:59.000 Right.

00:48:59.000 And the one thing I never was in favor of were the mandates, specifically because Oddly enough, the data they were pushing at the time led me to be anti-Mandate, because there are two things they were pushing.

00:49:09.000 One, that it was 99.99% effective in preventing death and serious disease, and two, it was 99.99% effective in preventing transmission.

00:49:15.000 Well, if the first is true, then you don't have to worry about transmission so much, meaning anybody who wants to get vaxxed can get vaxxed.

00:49:20.000 But it is kind of amazing how the scientific community blew itself out in terms of credibility by making Exorbitant claims about the vaccine.

00:49:28.000 Today, they'll still make exorbitant claims about the vaccine.

00:49:31.000 I mean, the CDC is now adding to the VAX schedule for small children, the COVID vaccine. 0.88

00:49:36.000 Something is ridiculous. 0.87

00:49:37.000 It's insane. 0.98

00:49:37.000 I mean, from the very earliest days of the pandemic, we knew this thing was not killing kids. 0.98

00:49:41.000 And yet, this is now being promoted by the CDC still.

00:49:41.000 Yeah.

00:49:44.000 And then if you doubt it, then you get censored on YouTube.

00:49:47.000 Yeah, listen, I think that's really true.

00:49:49.000 And I think that I give some leeway for the fact it was a novel virus.

00:49:55.000 It was pretty terrifying.

00:49:57.000 When you see someone like Lombardi in Italy collapsing, and Italy has the second best healthcare system in Europe, when you saw that happening and thousands of people dying every day, it was terrifying.

00:50:06.000 And there were no therapeutic treatments at the time.

00:50:09.000 There was no vaccine.

00:50:10.000 We didn't think we may ever get a vaccine.

00:50:11.000 There had never been one for coronavirus.

00:50:13.000 So it was pretty scary times.

00:50:14.000 I mean, we forget what it was like in those first few months.

00:50:17.000 So I do give political leaders and the science and health officials A little bit of leeway.

00:50:24.000 Where you get less tolerant is as it's gone on.

00:50:28.000 And they've carried on, I think, being the way that you just described.

00:50:32.000 I think that's completely indefensible.

00:50:33.000 I also have a massive problem with people like Anthony Fauci.

00:50:37.000 He seems to spend all his time doing television interviews and magazine covers and receiving awards.

00:50:42.000 Mate, you've got one job, right?

00:50:45.000 You are the head of infectious disease or whatever it is, whatever your title is.

00:50:49.000 Just make sure that you save as many lives as possible.

00:50:52.000 But don't turn yourself into some weird COVID celebrity.

00:50:56.000 He seems totally addicted to the fame part of it.

00:50:59.000 And I thought that was wrong.

00:51:00.000 In fact, I think that's wrong.

00:51:01.000 Another lesson from the pandemic, there'll be many lessons from it.

00:51:05.000 One is don't trust all the science.

00:51:08.000 But also, public officials in the health side should just stay away from cameras, I think.

00:51:14.000 It didn't add to anything.

00:51:15.000 It made things worse.

00:51:17.000 There's a Fauci rule that I have, which is never trust someone with authority who has a giant portrait of himself in a magazine photoshoot of him.

00:51:24.000 That's always a terrible sign as to what's about to happen.

00:51:28.000 Well, this does raise the question of the 2024 race, because one of the people who was made incredibly prominent by a lot of the COVID controversy was Governor Ron DeSantis in Florida, who really was guided by the data.

00:51:38.000 I remember I talked to Ron, it was July of 2021, and he was walking me through the data as to why he was pushing back against the mandates, why he was opening up everything, and why everything had been open for a long time.

00:51:50.000 It was actually 2020, it was June of 2020, so it was before the vaccines even, and he was talking about how he didn't think lockdowns were effective, and he was citing chapter and verse in terms of the studies.

00:51:57.000 He stood against a media that made him the villain.

00:52:00.000 Andrew Cuomo was the hero somehow, he was the villain, and he's reaping the benefit of that now.

00:52:03.000 And I ask you about the 2024 race in just one second, but first, When the going gets tough, there's one thing you can count on to have your back.

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00:53:07.000 So let's talk about the 2024 presidential race.

00:53:09.000 So you know Donald Trump, obviously.

00:53:12.000 You've had, you know, a lot of talks with him.

00:53:13.000 You've talked about him.

00:53:14.000 Made me a celebrity apprentice.

00:53:15.000 Yeah, correct.

00:53:16.000 A man of fine judgment.

00:53:19.000 So, he's declared that, obviously, he is running again.

00:53:22.000 It seems like his race so far is pretty lackluster.

00:53:25.000 The polls show that he is still the top leading national candidate.

00:53:29.000 There are some polls that have him trailing.

00:53:30.000 Governor DeSantis from Florida, in particular states, a couple have him trailing nationally.

00:53:34.000 How do you size up the race right now?

00:53:36.000 Well, I've been writing about DeSantis for a year now.

00:53:40.000 I think he's definitely the one to watch.

00:53:42.000 I definitely think he could end up being the Republican nominee and could end up being president.

00:53:46.000 He's an incredibly impressive guy.

00:53:47.000 If you look at his resume, you know, Yale and Harvard, you know, he was a sporting star.

00:53:53.000 He then went to Fallujah in 2007, the year of the worst casualties for America, as special counsel to the head of SEAL Team One.

00:54:02.000 This is a man with an extraordinary Back record, really.

00:54:07.000 Which is why I think you look at him and you think, this is a guy used to flack, right?

00:54:10.000 He's just very calm under fire.

00:54:12.000 Nothing seems to faze him.

00:54:14.000 And he's bold, and he's articulate, and he has a good message which he pumps in a smart way.

00:54:20.000 In many ways he's Trumpian in policy but without any of the baggage or the rhetoric or the tweeting or the sort of madness.

00:54:27.000 And whilst that all worked for Trump first time around in 2016, I don't think it can work again when there's someone like DeSantis who can give you the good stuff without the bad stuff.

00:54:37.000 But the Republicans have got to sort that out because I think that Biden is sitting there Basking in the unexpected glory of not being completely shellacked in the midterm elections, probably to his own surprise.

00:54:49.000 Everybody assumed there'd be this massive red wave.

00:54:52.000 It's never really materialized, other than in Florida.

00:54:54.000 So I think that it's very interesting to watch what Biden does.

00:54:57.000 He might be waiting to see does DeSantis get in the ring or not.

00:55:01.000 Because if he doesn't and it's Trump, Biden might think, well, I can take down Trump.

00:55:05.000 I did it last time.

00:55:06.000 And actually the best way to get my base out is for Trump to run again.

00:55:09.000 And he might well beat him again, actually.

00:55:12.000 Different thing if it's a guy half your age.

00:55:14.000 If, as Joe Biden is, you keep falling over on planes and you keep bumbling your words and forgetting who you are half the time.

00:55:20.000 So if it's DeSantis v. Biden, Biden might well drop out, I think.

00:55:24.000 If it's Trump v. Biden, Biden probably runs, is the way I look at it.

00:55:30.000 But who knows?

00:55:30.000 It's very unpredictable.

00:55:31.000 It's been very unpredictable in America.

00:55:33.000 That's been in the UK for a long time.

00:55:35.000 Yeah, when you look at Trump's campaign, it does feel a lot more lackluster.

00:55:39.000 And my theory of why it feels lackluster, I mean, obviously, you know, certain things are no longer fresh.

00:55:43.000 I mean, the sort of out-of-the-box authenticity of Trump, where he's just going to say whatever he's thinking on the toilet, and it's just going to come out.

00:55:48.000 You're like, wow, that's something I've never seen any politician do ever, usually for a reason.

00:55:52.000 But like, that's amazing that people are actually being that open and authentic.

00:55:57.000 It has grown a little bit old when it's all grievance-based, when it's all personal grievance-based.

00:56:01.000 I actually think that this week, Trump did the first good thing I've seen him do in his presidential campaign when he took a bunch of water over to East Palestine, Ohio.

00:56:07.000 I think it's actually the first attempt he's made to sort of reconnect with the people who made him president in the first place.

00:56:13.000 He also has to stop whining about losing the 2020 election, right?

00:56:16.000 I've tried to tell him this to his face, on the phone, and whenever we've spoken.

00:56:20.000 It's like, it's a complete lose.

00:56:23.000 Thing.

00:56:23.000 If you look at the midterm elections, most of the candidates that were Trump candidates who back this stolen election lost.

00:56:31.000 Most of them lost.

00:56:33.000 It's a vote loser. 0.97

00:56:34.000 It sounds whiny. 0.98

00:56:35.000 It sounds looking back, not forward.

00:56:38.000 Americans have been suffering from the pandemic, from a massive economic crisis.

00:56:42.000 They want to know about the future.

00:56:45.000 They don't want to keep hearing this guy bitching about losing an election.

00:56:48.000 In 2020.

00:56:49.000 They don't care.

00:56:50.000 Most people don't care.

00:56:51.000 They've moved on to more important things in their life.

00:56:54.000 And if Donald Trump can't leave that behind him, I don't think he has a chance.

00:56:58.000 This has basically been the case that I've been making is that in 2016, his pitch, and it was a pretty good pitch, was, the reason that they hate me is because they hate you.

00:57:05.000 Until five seconds ago, I was hobnobbing with all these people.

00:57:07.000 Hillary Clinton was at my wedding, right?

00:57:09.000 We were all friends.

00:57:10.000 And then I declared as a Republican candidate, and they hate you, so they hate me. 0.99

00:57:13.000 And so I'm out here taking a bullet for you. 0.97

00:57:15.000 And since 2020, the pitch has basically been, you need to now take a bullet for me. 0.79

00:57:19.000 I claim that I won.

00:57:20.000 Everyone else thinks I lost.

00:57:21.000 You need to go out there and you need to repeat what I'm telling you right now to show your personal loyalty to me.

00:57:26.000 And that's just a bad election pitch because it's not the job of voters to defend the guy.

00:57:29.000 It's the job of the guy to defend the voters.

00:57:31.000 Also, he lost.

00:57:32.000 He didn't just lose the election.

00:57:34.000 But he then lost Georgia, which meant they lost the Senate.

00:57:38.000 That was a huge blow to the party, completely self-inflicted.

00:57:41.000 All of Biden's spending would have been stopped if he had done that.

00:57:43.000 Right, completely self-inflicted.

00:57:44.000 And then you have the midterms, where most of his preferred candidates lost. 0.91

00:57:49.000 You add it all up, and Trump's gone from being this amazing, stunning vote winner, who actually won the White House, being the least qualified guy to ever do it in history, against the most qualified candidate in history, and he's gone to being someone who looks like a perennial loser.

00:58:03.000 And that's not a great pitch, actually, for the Republicans going forward.

00:58:08.000 I think they'd be much better advised to go with young and fresh.

00:58:12.000 Now, looking at the Democratic side of the aisle, you mentioned Biden.

00:58:14.000 Biden, as you pointed out before, and this is obviously true, would be 86 finishing his second term.

00:58:20.000 He does not appear to be fully alive at this point.

00:58:23.000 It's kind of a small miracle that he is still halfway functional from time to time.

00:58:28.000 But apparently that's enough to sort of get him to 45% in the polling.

00:58:33.000 He's got his gander up since the midterms.

00:58:35.000 I mean, he just is exuding an air of a bit more energy and vim about him because I think he was as surprised as the rest of us.

00:58:43.000 And his heart rate has actually achieved almost normal human levels now.

00:58:46.000 I actually think he was probably thinking, we're going to get completely wiped out and then I'm going to announce I'm not going to run again.

00:58:53.000 I've done my bit.

00:58:54.000 I stopped Trump getting reelected.

00:58:55.000 I've done my bit and we'll move on.

00:58:57.000 But off the back of the midterms, he's just been a different kind of character.

00:59:01.000 He's still been Biden-esque and we've had those senior moments which come every now and again.

00:59:06.000 But I watched him in Ukraine and he was pretty fired up and pretty, you know, commander-in-chief.

00:59:11.000 Actually quite ballsy to go to Kiev with missiles flying around and to stand there with Zelensky.

00:59:18.000 And I thought, yeah, I don't care if you're a Democrat or Republican.

00:59:21.000 That's quite a ballsy thing for your Commander-in-Chief to do.

00:59:23.000 So I don't think he's a spent force at all.

00:59:27.000 And I think if the Republicans end up with Trump again, Biden could win again.

00:59:31.000 And that should be their calculation, really.

00:59:33.000 How do you best win the White House back? 0.98

00:59:35.000 Do you go with the guy that's proven for the last three years to be a loser?

00:59:40.000 So looking at sort of what Biden is doing right now, one of the interesting moves that he seemed to make right after the midterms is he shifted his message a little bit.

00:59:54.000 He was doing a lot of the wokeness, he was doing a lot of the radical social policy, and then it seemed like he was Somehow kind of trying to push back into almost Clintonian third-way territory.

01:00:02.000 Suddenly he started talking about how we were going to save the Rust Belt, how we were going to reshore a bunch of jobs, how he was going to essentially refocus on economic redistributionism and investment in various American projects.

01:00:15.000 I think that's going to fall apart on him fairly quickly, because I don't think that his coalition can actually do that.

01:00:18.000 Last week, he brought out an executive order, which is one of the most sweeping executive orders I've ever seen in American politics.

01:00:24.000 It was an executive order declaring that equity would lie at the root of literally every government agency.

01:00:28.000 And equity obviously means equality of outcome, not equality of rights.

01:00:33.000 So every government agency would be directed to now adopt an equity agenda and figure out exactly how they were going to make it so that groups in the United States had equal outcome, which is extraordinary.

01:00:42.000 Most equity agendas I've seen in America End up being unequal.

01:00:47.000 There's no way to achieve.

01:00:48.000 Just by definition.

01:00:49.000 I mean, there has never been a society in human history in which everybody is equal because human beings are not the same.

01:00:54.000 Well, there's been Chairman Mao's Communist Party.

01:00:56.000 It would be the nearest thing you'd have.

01:00:58.000 The only time we're all equal is when we're dead.

01:00:59.000 Yeah. 0.93

01:01:00.000 When we're all dead.

01:01:01.000 Right.

01:01:01.000 And then we're all equal.

01:01:01.000 But until then, even in the Communist Party, Mao lived in a real nice house, right?

01:01:05.000 No, exactly.

01:01:06.000 And the same thing was true of Stalin. 0.66

01:01:07.000 It's a fanciful notion that you can get to equity.

01:01:09.000 And when you do that among groups, and the idea is that any evidence of disparity is evidence of discrimination, therefore the system is to blame for all of these disparities, you get to some pretty ugly places pretty quickly.

01:01:19.000 I wonder what you make of the Democratic coalition and whether you think that Biden even has the ability within his own coalition, which is essentially college-educated white women and I wouldn't put it past him.

01:01:37.000 I think he's quite a skillful political operator, actually.

01:01:40.000 You don't spend 50 years in Washington as he has.

01:01:43.000 Also, it's quite a steely streak, which I think comes from the devastating blows he suffered personally.

01:01:50.000 He lost a wife and a baby in a car crash.

01:01:52.000 He lost his beloved son, Beau, in his 40s.

01:01:56.000 And I think that's given him an emotional steal, actually, which I've seen flashes of since the midterms.

01:02:04.000 I wouldn't rule him out. 0.98

01:02:04.000 I think it's a mistake of the Republicans to think this is a doddering old fool and we can't possibly lose against him. 0.98

01:02:11.000 Because they lost against him last time and they really did take really a bit of a beating in the midterms, I would argue, comparative to where people thought the Republicans were going to end up. 0.92

01:02:21.000 So I think I wouldn't underestimate Biden's ability to pull off another shock and to do it by moving more to the center in the way you said.

01:02:31.000 Certainly you hear him saying a lot less woke stuff these days.

01:02:34.000 He just isn't saying it.

01:02:36.000 He stopped being the president of woke because he realizes actually it pisses most people off.

01:02:41.000 So I think this backlash against the woke brigade, as I call them, I think is real.

01:02:47.000 And I think Biden's got smart enough political antennae to realize that's not the way he's going to win again.

01:02:54.000 Okay, so let's talk about wokeness.

01:03:01.000 Obviously, calls to censor you have resulted in you actually losing a job for the great sin, as we discussed earlier, of saying that Meghan Markle is not a trustworthy human, which, as it turns out, maybe The most obvious statement in human history.

01:03:13.000 But, you know, the Woke Brigade seems to have its way in nearly every area of certainly American life.

01:03:19.000 And that seems like it was translating across the pond as well for the past several years.

01:03:23.000 Do you think that they have now stepped so far that the movement against them, they've hit their high watermark?

01:03:29.000 Two words, Roald Dahl.

01:03:31.000 Fascinating to see how that story played out.

01:03:33.000 Because two years ago, you would have had a bunch of Wokies leaping up and down defending it publicly. 1.00

01:03:39.000 High-profile celebrities, right?

01:03:41.000 They did it about Dr. Seuss, right?

01:03:42.000 They removed Dr. Seuss from the show.

01:03:43.000 There's been a very different reaction this time.

01:03:46.000 A lot of people on the left actually also agree it's wrong.

01:03:49.000 It's gone too far.

01:03:50.000 They're actually rewriting vast swathes of Roald Dahl's children's books in a ridiculous manner where apparently fat is offensive but enormous is fine. 0.96

01:03:58.000 I mean, Tractors can't be black because it might be racist. 0.95

01:04:01.000 The whole thing was so absurd. 0.96

01:04:03.000 In a way, it punctured the woke balloon.

01:04:06.000 That one story, I think.

01:04:08.000 And it kind of shocked people on the woke side to think, my God, even by our standards, this is completely nuts.

01:04:15.000 So once that starts to happen, and you see the reaction being very different to how it was with Doctor Sears, once you see that happen, I believe the worm has turned.

01:04:25.000 The woke worm has turned.

01:04:26.000 And not before time.

01:04:28.000 I think it's always been a fad. 0.93

01:04:30.000 It's been a very insidious fad, a dangerous fad, a very destructive fad, but ultimately most people aren't woke.

01:04:38.000 Not by the new definition.

01:04:40.000 Yeah, the old definition of being aware of social, racial injustice, fine, we can all sign up to that.

01:04:44.000 That's not what this is.

01:04:46.000 Woke now is cancelled culture.

01:04:48.000 People who operate it and promote it, who think that anyone who doesn't agree with their worldview, which is often a very warped view of the world anyway, must be shamed, vilified, abused and cancelled.

01:04:58.000 That mentality is becoming more and more unpopular.

01:05:03.000 And I think that the ones doing it are beginning to realize that.

01:05:06.000 It's not over, and it's a war.

01:05:08.000 It's a war for free speech and freedom of expression and all the freedoms we normally take for granted.

01:05:13.000 But it's been a ridiculous assault on those freedoms.

01:05:17.000 It's going to be kind of amazing that maybe the two key figures in the rollback of Wokeness are going to be children's authors from Britain, right?

01:05:23.000 Between Roald Dahl and J.K.

01:05:24.000 Rowling.

01:05:25.000 It's kind of an amazing thing.

01:05:25.000 Yeah.

01:05:27.000 The most amazing thing about J.K.

01:05:28.000 Rowling, I don't even like her.

01:05:30.000 I've had a few spats with her on Twitter. 0.72

01:05:32.000 When I got told to f*** off by Jim Jeffries on the Bill Maher show for saying that Trump wasn't Adolf Hitler, which I didn't think was unreasonable. 0.97

01:05:40.000 But when I got told to f*** off, she tweeted, is there anything more delicious than seeing Piers Morgan being told to f*** off on live TV? 0.96

01:05:47.000 So she's no friend of mine, and I'm no friend of hers. 0.96

01:05:51.000 But the fact that she has been so ridiculously persecuted and abused and threatened as a woman for simply standing up to protect women's rights against a grotesque attempt to trash those rights is one of the most absurd things of modern life.

01:06:10.000 It's absurd.

01:06:11.000 The fact that you can espouse a belief in biological sex, and you're the problem, And that you can end up in a situation, as we saw in Scotland recently, with a male rapist putting his hand up and saying, I'm a woman, at his trial, so he can get put in a woman's prison where there'll be fresh targets for him, and it works, and he goes in there as a woman until there's such an outcry that not only has he then moved back, and I say he because I don't think he ever intended to be a proper woman, 0.88

01:06:39.000 It gets put back in a male prison and the Scottish leader, Nicola Sturgeon, has to resign because of the furore he caused by this nonsensical gender limitless gender identification nonsense. 0.80

01:06:51.000 That's where this goes if you don't actually battle it.

01:06:54.000 But the fact that J.K.

01:06:56.000 Rowling, one of the most popular authors ever in history, I mean the most popular, could just stand up for women's rights, to protect women, to make them feel safe, to battle for fairness and equality on things like the sporting field and so on, that she gets treated the way she did.

01:07:12.000 If that doesn't tend to shiver down people's spines, I don't know what should.

01:07:16.000 We'll jump back in in just one moment.

01:07:17.000 This conversation does continue here, but only for our Daily Wire Plus members.

01:07:20.000 We're going to get into a lot of hot topics, including the blowback against wokeism.

01:07:23.000 We're going to get into Andrew Tate and masculinity.

The Ben Shapiro Show - March 12, 2023

Piers Morgan On The Royal Family: UNCENSORED

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