Jair Bolsonaro is the current president of Brazil, and is up for re-election at the end of this month. In this special, Ben Shapiro talks with him about his opponent, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, a former president who served time in jail for corruption. They also discuss the impact of the impeachment of President Dilma Rousseff, and the impact that her impeachment had on Brazil s economy and the country s political system. Ben Shapiro's Sunday Special is sponsored by Express VPN. Protect your online privacy today at ExpressVPN.org/ProtectYourOnline Privacy Today at ExpressVpn.org. Protect Your Privacy Protect Your Online Privacy by Protecting Your Privacy by Securing Your Data And Protecting It's integrity by Protect Your Data Subscribe to The Ben Shapiro Show: Sunday Special on the Ben Shapiro Podcast by becoming a supporter of his campaign by clicking the link at the bottom of the page. If you don t have a membership yet, click the link below to become a member of our Daily Wire Plus memberset! You'll get access to all the latest news and information, including access to our newest podcasts, upcoming special episodes, upcoming podcasts, and special features, and much more! Subscribe today! Learn more about our sponsorships, including our upcoming VIP packages, our upcoming special limited-edition T-shirts and hoodies! Want to sponsor our new ad-free version of the show? Subscribe & hoodies? Click here to receive $10, $10 off your first purchase of $50 or $100 in total, and $150 in total get $50 off the offer of $150, and a VIP discount when you get a VIP membership offer? Get the offer ends in the offer starts starting at $99,99 gets you get an ad-only version of $99 or $99 and $99 gets $50,99 and I'm listening to the show gets $4,99, I'll get $5,99 + VIP gets 4 VIP access gets 5, I'm also get $4 VIP access? I'll also get a shirt and a 5-piece of 4-piece shirt and 2-piece set? and a shirt & 2-day shipping offer starts starts starts starting starts starts start shipping starts start? Thanks so much, you'll get 4-of these two-and I'll receive $4 and a discount of $49,99 or 5-of your ad?
00:00:28.000Our guest, Jair Bolsonaro, is the current president of Brazil.
00:00:32.000He's up for re-election at the end of this month.
00:00:34.000The presidency of Brazil has been turbulent for nearly all of its modern history.
00:00:37.000For 20 years, the 60s through the 80s, Brazil was run by military dictatorship following the coup against a socialist president.
00:00:43.000More recently, President Dilma Rousseff was impeached after the country was driven into economic crisis in 2014.
00:00:49.000Brazil's government has long been filled with corruption, too.
00:00:52.000The current election pits former President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, Lula, who actually served time in jail for corruption, against Bolsonaro, who has targeted corruption in allegedly controversial ways.
00:01:02.000Bolsonaro has also taken militantly conservative stances on issues ranging from killing government programs to opening up gun availability for law-abiding citizens, from harsher treatment of criminals to opening up more economic development in areas prized by environmentalists.
00:01:15.000Bolsonaro has been slandered as a fascist, a dictator, or an authoritarian by many in the media, but his agenda of a more assertive force to cut crime and promote traditional family values has made him hugely popular with Brazilians.
00:01:28.000This time around, he bucked the odds to survive a first-round face-off with Lula, dramatically outperforming the early polls.
00:01:34.000Many countries that make up South America face political corruption and destructive progressive policies.
00:01:39.000We see that in Venezuela, Argentina, Chile.
00:01:41.000In today's episode, we discuss if Brazil's momentum away from big government could lead a way forward for many other countries in South America.
00:01:47.000Plus, we discuss Bolsonaro's experience dealing with the Trump administration compared with the Biden administration, his COVID policies, his political opponent Lula, and the significance of the upcoming Brazilian election.
00:01:58.000Welcome to the Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special.
00:02:13.000Protect your online privacy today at expressvpn.com.
00:02:16.000Slash Ben, just a reminder, the end of this episode will be exclusively for our Daily Wire Plus members.
00:02:21.000If you're not a member yet, click the link at the top of this episode's description, get the full conversation with President Bolsonaro, as well as every one of our awesome guests.
00:02:29.000President Jair Bolsonaro, thanks so much for joining the show.
00:04:22.000And he left a huge trail of corruption in Brazil.
00:04:26.000In the pension funds alone, the left-over of Rombo is 45 billion reais, around 9 billion dollars.
00:04:44.000In Petrobras as a whole, the table's indebtedness in the PT period, Lula and Dilma, the indebtedness reached the house of 170 billion dollars.
00:04:59.000This is deviations, overbought purchases, other purchases made and not reached, works begun and not completed, In other words, this is a small portrait of what the PT's government was like here in Brazil.
00:05:16.000They have a lot of money, a lot of money outside of Brazil.
00:05:19.000You can see it in their negotiations with pension funds, even.
00:05:23.000And they have this enormous economic power that they put at the service of Lula's candidacy.
00:05:31.000And they are also a machine of lies, fake news.
00:05:39.000Lula himself revealed a few days ago that politicians in Brazil have to lie.
00:05:45.000Because lies fly and the truth gets caught.
00:05:50.000So to get to power, everything is worth it.
00:05:55.000Until you change, from the inside out at least, old positions of the party, such as abortion, gender ideology and family.
00:06:09.000With the weapons of democracy, which are more difficult to fight with, but we're playing, as I call it here, within the four lines of our Constitution.
00:06:21.000And they accuse me of what they were, or what they intend to be.
00:06:27.000They accuse me of being a dictator, of being homophobic, of being racist.
00:08:11.000What brings us a certain confidence is that the armed forces were invited to join an electoral transparency commission.
00:08:22.000And they have played an active and very good role in this regard.
00:08:27.000However, they tell me that it is impossible to give a seal of credibility, still considering the many vulnerabilities that the system presents.
00:08:45.000And the Supreme Electoral Court, here in Brazil, of its seven members, three are from the Supreme Federal Court, which are people appointed back there, Political parties.
00:09:04.000So, going back to that question of yours, first Lula was arrested, convicted, serving a prison sentence, and then a group of the Supreme Federal Court, or rather, the Supreme Federal Court as a whole, decided to reinterpret what we call prison in the second instance.
00:09:26.000And it was defined by the Supreme Court itself, whoever was sentenced in the second instance could continue to appeal, but would still be arrested.
00:09:36.000The Supreme Court decided, for the most part, to say that he could only be arrested in the last instance.
00:09:46.000But then, we had a law here, called the Clean Sheet Law, who could only run for any election, who was condemned at most in the first instance.
00:10:00.000And Lula was condemned in the third instance.
00:10:08.000So, a minister appointed by Lula, Mr. Edson Fachin, decided to find nullity in the corruption process, in which he had already been condemned in the third instance, and unanimously in all the instances.
00:10:28.000He simply said that Lula should be judged in Brasília, and not as he was in Curitiba, a place where he was condemned.
00:10:37.000And then he annulled the condemnations.
00:12:59.000Or is he mainly sort of a welfare state, American-style democrat?
00:13:03.000They didn't count on the discovery Corruption is very big in your government, which was discovered by chance, which here in Brazil became known as Operation Lava Jato.
00:14:04.000And it ended in 2016, in the middle of Dilma Rousseff's second term, the impeachment process, and as the vote here is open to these issues, it is not secret, in the end, Dilma was hunted.
00:14:27.000The hunted person in Brazil has been uneligible for 8 years.
00:14:34.000The other minister of the Supreme Court, who led the process in the Federal Senate, made an agreement with the senators and made Dilma uneligible.
00:14:50.000I gave a very forceful vote because of Dilma Rousseff's vote.
00:14:54.000I already had a certain notoriety in Brazil and I became even more known.
00:15:00.000Obviously, the press hit me a lot here, but I became even more known and I had already decided to run for the elections in 2018.
00:15:09.000They tried to assassinate me on September 6th, they were unsuccessful.
00:15:27.000It's a very complicated story and it would take a few dozen minutes to explain it, but I managed to run for office.
00:15:35.000And I took over the government, setting up the ministry in a very different way from all the other presidents who preceded me.
00:15:46.000They always set up their ministries accepting political parties' impositions so that there would be support within the parliament.
00:16:00.000I set up a minister with a third of soldiers and the other two thirds of civilians, but they knew their responsibility and had the competence to do your job in front of the Ministry.
00:16:17.0002019, the first year, was very difficult, because we didn't have a good relationship with the National Congress.
00:16:30.000But we won, 2020 came, another very strong complicator that affected the whole world, the issue of COVID.
00:16:42.0002021, we had other problems here, such as the lack of water never seen in Brazil.
00:18:24.000And also, our proposal, which is already beginning to come into force, Brazil will be a great exporter of clean energy, called green hydrogen, where only on the coast of the Northeast region, further north of Brazil, our potential is raised,
00:18:45.000we will be able to produce clean energy, equivalent to 50 times what Itaipu Bi-National produces here in Brazil.
00:18:57.000So Brazil has food, has energy, has biodiversity, has mineral wealth, has a fantastic climate, agricultural lands still Not being used.
00:19:15.000We preserve two-thirds of our natural vegetation, which is in the same way as we were discovered in 1500.
00:19:23.000Brazil has a huge way ahead to really move forward.
00:19:27.000In the current year, we went from the 13th to the 10th economy in the world.
00:19:34.000We are from the 13th to the 10th economy in the world, and we can, year after year, recover positions.
00:19:42.000The whole world is well related to us, obviously because of our potential.
00:19:47.000And Brazil is something that every country in the world wants to have a partnership with.
00:19:56.000When we look at Brazil, the old joke about Brazil was that it was the country of the future and it always would be.
00:20:02.000And a large part of that has been because of the regulations, the taxation, and the corruption in Brazil.
00:20:09.000How have you taken on the issue of deregulating the economy?
00:20:57.000Because we don't accept political parties' indications to integrate not only the government through ministries, but also state and official banks.
00:21:12.000Each minister or president of a state or official bank is responsible for the indication of all their second steps.
00:21:23.000I determine that they cannot give in to the pressure or suggestion of indicating people out of their knowledge.
00:21:36.000BNDS, for example, which lent money to dictatorships in South America, doesn't lend anymore.
00:21:47.000A former federal deputy who was found in his apartment with 10 million dollars.
00:21:53.000And he was the director of the Federal Economic Box.
00:21:57.000So certainly the resource came from there.
00:22:13.000And when we put technical people in the ministry, they started working.
00:22:18.000Only this month, I could say something that came from the Ministry of Mines and Energy.
00:22:24.000We couldn't exploit lithium, for example, in a region of Minas Gerais, known as Vale do Jequitinhonha, due to internal problems of the government itself.
00:22:38.000We're ready, we're in a condition to explore lithium in Minas Gerais.
00:22:47.000The issue of offshore wind turbines, as I said a little while ago, is also already regulated.
00:22:52.000In the current month, we are reactivating the construction of our third nuclear power plant, called ANGRA 3.
00:23:03.000Also in the state of Ceará, a decision made this month, by decree of myself and the Ministry, we're going to explore uranium in the state of Ceará, a region known as Santa Quitéria.
00:23:21.000And I could mention dozens of things that are in progress because of the actions of the government.
00:23:28.000When you talk about a more sluggish state, There were thousands of regulatory norms that hindered the entrepreneur.
00:23:38.000We put an end point in 90% of these norms.
00:24:07.000Today, we are also the 7th most digitized country in the world.
00:24:12.000the 7th most digitized country in the world.
00:24:16.000All of this stimulated entrepreneurship, the opening of new companies, the free market.
00:24:26.000We didn't open public contests, as it was very common in the past, where the public machine was swollen.
00:24:38.000I opened contests only for what was necessary, such as Federal Police and Federal Highway Police.
00:24:48.000We understand this, the market understands, with a great administrative reform, by digitizing the government, and by not opening a competition for shares that can be replaced by private equity, with a great administrative reform, without the Brazilian parliament.
00:25:06.000I believe that all the measures taken They were responsible for the fact that our economy didn't have a big boom in 2020.
00:25:17.000The world expected Brazil to decrease by 10%.
00:26:55.000A little less than a year ago, the president took over Fernandes, Lula's friend, and other members of the São Paulo Forum here in Brazil.
00:27:08.000A few decades ago, Argentina had a GDP similar to ours.
00:27:14.000Today, it's down there, and 40% of its people are in the poverty line.
00:27:19.000And here's a fact that's with you in Brazil, A few weeks ago, the candidate promised the population, every weekend, picanha and beer.
00:27:33.000Coincidentally, the candidate Fernandes, in Argentina, also promised barbecue to his people.
00:27:44.000Advertisements were even seen in supermarkets, in the gondolas, where there was meat to sell.
00:27:50.000Vote Fernandes and Kirchner and you're going to eat barbecue on the weekend.
00:27:55.000Today, there is no bone to eat in Argentina.
00:27:58.000The way President Fernandes interfered in the economy, prohibiting the export of meat, taxing up to 33% of agricultural products for export, led to the discouragement of the farmers and of those who deal with the field product.
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00:30:03.000So, to what do you attribute the upswing of the radical left in South America?
00:30:07.000We've seen South American leftists take over in Chile, in Colombia, in Argentina.
00:30:13.000Obviously, we've seen the catastrophe in Venezuela and, you know, the fact that Lula is now pulling The pandemic has led to the loss of people's purchasing power.
00:30:23.000you as a demonstrator of the continuing strength of the far left in South America.
00:30:27.000Why is South America seemingly so susceptible to this sort of stuff after dramatic failure after dramatic failure on the continent?
00:30:35.000The pandemic has led to people losing purchasing power.
00:30:41.000The pandemic has led to people losing purchasing power.
00:30:50.000So, for example, Argentina, Chile, Colombia, the people passed the need.
00:31:04.000And the people voted on proposals from the left, blaming the current president for the economic crisis, without taking into account The consequences of the pandemic, the consequences adopted in South America, sending the people to stay at home to fight the virus, which the economy would take care of later.
00:31:29.000So this led many people who lost their purchasing power, the poor, to vote for the false proposal on the left.
00:31:34.000Here they did the same thing, but I have more time to show the reality to the population.
00:31:53.000I'm having this chance to show the population what we've been through and why inflation and price increases are happening in such a short time.
00:32:37.000So the PT, 14 years in the government, they also destroyed the educational base in Brazil.
00:32:46.000They always went for automatic approval.
00:32:53.000And benefits for students, which do not encourage students to study.
00:32:59.000We have a PISA test, the International School Learning Test, where 70 countries participate, and Brazil is in last place, in one of the last places in this test.
00:33:15.000We even lost to five countries here in South America, and we were almost in first place.
00:33:22.000The more misinformed the population is, without the ability to understand certain issues, these people are captured by the party and are allied to it.
00:33:37.000And here in Brazil they also play hard, the question of not giving freedom of expression, the question against it.
00:33:45.000But in the liberation of drugs, marijuana, the liberation of abortion, and the so-called gender ideology, where there are children of 7, 8, 9, 10 years old, boys don't know if they are boys or girls, and vice versa.
00:34:10.000It's a terrible thing here in Brazilian education.
00:34:15.000A lot of people end up at a higher level, semi-illiterate.
00:34:21.000In the PT government, it took three years to make a child illiterate.
00:34:28.000In our government now, more than half of the municipalities in Brazil, with our methodology, take six months.
00:34:38.000So we're investing in this base, seeking the freedom of the kids, teaching them how to write in the first year, in the first six months.
00:35:15.000So up to 250, there is one Brazilian university that fits as the best in the world.
00:35:23.000It is a catastrophe, the legacy left by PT in the field of education.
00:35:29.000So one of the areas in which you've been widely demonized by the media has been with regard to social policy.
00:35:35.000You mentioned before your positions on abortion, on same-sex marriage.
00:35:40.000Brazil has been historically a very traditional country when it comes to things like marriage, when it comes to abortion.
00:35:46.000In 2010, it was President Lula's last year.
00:35:47.000After that, Dilma Rousseff from PT also took over.
00:35:49.000What do you make of the push by the far left in countries like Brazil to confuse people with gender ideology or to liberalize efforts with regard to abortion?
00:36:00.000In 2010, it was President Lula's last year.
00:36:05.000Then Dilma Rousseff, from PT, also took over.
00:36:09.000In 2010, Lula approved in the House a bill that sentenced up to three years in prison a priest or a pastor who refused to marry two men or two women.
00:36:25.000Obviously, fathers and pastors did not agree with this.
00:37:49.000When I defend the man of the field, they say I'm the destroyer of nature.
00:37:56.000When I defend the legitimate right to defense, in this case, freedom, with some criteria for the person to have a firearm at home, they accuse me of wanting to arm the population to cause chaos in here.
00:38:14.000And a large part of the media, almost all of it, is from the left.
00:38:22.000The research institutes themselves are bought.
00:38:45.000But Brazil, which has our side and is very strong, 90% of Brazilians are Christians, Evangelicals or Catholics.
00:38:55.000And a considerable part of them understands my situation and defends me.
00:39:03.000Here, candidate Lula says all the time that he's going to regulate the media, he's going to censor the media, and yet the media supports him.
00:39:16.000They always want to regulate the media.
00:39:18.000They tried while they were in government.
00:39:40.000On the other hand, there was someone who behaved like an inflexible person, who didn't negotiate with the left in search of support from the parliament.
00:40:16.000Through Parliament, we reformed the State, made it more agile, lighter, and we really rose several positions in the ranking of the world's largest GDP.
00:40:32.000Are you surprised by the amount of vitriol from the American media for you?
00:40:36.000Because the amount of hatred, obviously, in Brazilian media, that's predictable to a certain extent.
00:40:42.000In every country, there's a lot of domestic opposition in the media to whomever is the leader.
00:40:47.000But the New York Times, for example, seems to really despise you at a deep level.
00:40:52.000I remember a couple of years ago when they were In a commercial context with the world.
00:40:57.000Brazil is a power in the agribusiness.
00:40:59.000the Amazon, this was a major, it was made into a major global issue.
00:41:03.000When it came to your handling of COVID, the New York Times seemed to spend almost every day covering how you were handling COVID.
00:41:09.000What do you make of the attention paid to you by international media, not just domestic media?
00:41:13.000Brazil is a powerhouse in the agribusiness, in its commodities.
00:41:23.000And we produce a lot of indigenous products.
00:42:22.000So much so that if you compare my four years in office with the first four in Lula from 2011 to 2014, there was three times more deforestation in his government.
00:42:37.000We deal with these issues with much more responsibility.
00:42:40.000Now I understand, the Amazon is equivalent to a Western Europe.
00:43:03.000There's a law called Fundamental Regularization.
00:43:10.000where you could, via satellite, when detecting any deforestation or any heat focus, know who owns that piece of land.
00:43:20.000We call here knowing the CPF of that person.
00:43:24.000And then you go up to that person and see if that deforestation was irregular or not.
00:43:33.000We didn't have that, because the left worked against it.
00:43:35.000Because they knew I was going to have it in my hands, Something to tell the truth about deforestation and the focus of fires in the Amazon.
00:43:44.000In the event of the election, I will certainly approve this project and a final point will be placed in the lies about deforestation and the focus of fires in the Amazon with all this potential as it is disclosed.
00:44:00.000Folks, our conversation will continue with questions about President Trump versus President Biden and how President Bolsonaro has dealt with both of them.