The Ben Shapiro Show - Shelby Steele | The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special Ep. 105

00:00:00.000 Freedom is not that interesting in black America. 0.95

00:00:02.000 What's interesting is this enormous power that befell us in the 60s when America owned up to to its past.

00:00:12.000 The events of the past year have elevated the national conversation around race to degrees of tumult not seen for a generation.

00:00:18.000 Our guest today is no stranger to those conversations and has been a key figure in the scholarship of race relations for decades, Shelby Steele.

00:00:25.000 A renowned author, columnist, and documentary filmmaker, Steele is an advocate for individual freedom and liberty and has been a strong proponent of the civil rights movement of the 1960s for just this reason.

00:00:35.000 That movement, which was focused on the individual, has been perverted, he says, by a move toward government dependence.

00:00:41.000 Welfare and affirmative action programs have only furthered racial divides.

00:00:44.000 He argues these beliefs in his writing, including the popular book, White Guilt, How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era.

00:00:52.000 Now a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, Steele recently produced a documentary in collaboration with his son, filmmaker Eli Steele, titled, What Killed Michael Brown?

00:01:01.000 It's an investigation into the 2014 Ferguson, Missouri shooting, just as George Floyd's death rocked the nation.

00:01:07.000 At the time of this recording, Steele was embroiled in a controversy with Amazon over the release of the film.

00:01:13.000 Without any clear basis for their decision, Amazon had refused to distribute the documentary.

00:01:17.000 There have since been new developments in the story, so we'll have to wait to see how it all plays out in the end.

00:01:22.000 In our conversation, Shelby details his struggles with Amazon and the journey he has gone through to get this important film made.

00:01:28.000 Seal and I also discussed the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement and organization and the reasons President Trump and his supporters are so often labeled racist.

00:01:36.000 Hey Han, welcome back.

00:01:46.000 This is The Ben Shapiro Show, Sunday special.

00:01:48.000 We're so pleased to welcome Professor Shelby Steele.

00:01:51.000 The only way to get access to the end of our conversation, we do bonus questions at the end.

00:01:55.000 The only way to get access to that part of the conversation is to become a member.

00:01:57.000 Head on over to dailywire.com, become a member.

00:01:59.000 You'll have access to all of the full conversations with every one of our awesome guests.

00:02:03.000 Shelby Steele, thanks so much for joining the show.

00:02:05.000 Really appreciate it.

00:02:06.000 Well, thanks so much for having me.

00:02:08.000 So for folks who don't know your background, maybe you can talk a little bit about your transformation on issues of race, because when you were younger, you really were more of a racial radical.

00:02:19.000 You talk in many of your books about your views on race and how they've morphed over time.

00:02:24.000 Maybe you can talk a little bit about that journey.

00:02:26.000 I was born into a civil rights family.

00:02:28.000 My parents met As founding members of CORE, Congress of Racial Equality in Chicago in the 40s.

00:02:38.000 So, I was a core baby.

00:02:40.000 I sort of grew up in the civil rights milieu, that world, demonstrations and so forth.

00:02:47.000 And I went on demonstrations as a toddler.

00:02:52.000 So, I was always aware of the issue of race.

00:02:58.000 And this was, again, when I was a kid, was deep.

00:03:01.000 segregation everywhere across America.

00:03:06.000 And so I was very aware of that.

00:03:11.000 And by the time I got to college, black power had begun to emerge. 1.00

00:03:19.000 Blacks had taken on a new militancy. 0.99

00:03:22.000 And I identified with that, and I still do.

00:03:28.000 You know, Patrick Henry is my ultimate hero.

00:03:30.000 Give me liberty or give me death.

00:03:32.000 And if you won't allow me in, and I can't come to the table, and I can't play with everyone else, then it's revolution time.

00:03:44.000 So I got to that in the late 60s.

00:03:48.000 I was the leader of my student, Black Student Union in my college, and we took over the president's office, and we did all the things that militant students did back in that era.

00:04:01.000 I won't march you through all of the details, but I graduated from college.

00:04:09.000 I went to work in the inner city in a government-sponsored program, poverty programs.

00:04:15.000 They were everywhere.

00:04:16.000 I worked in about three or four of them for about three or four years.

00:04:23.000 I began to see corruption.

00:04:25.000 I began to see people using the circumstance of poverty as a means to personal ends, and people started to come to work in Mercedes-Benz and to the poverty program.

00:04:44.000 By the time I left there, I had pretty much lost my innocence regarding poverty work, and I went to graduate school.

00:04:55.000 Began to live a much more traditional life from there.

00:05:01.000 But I began to feel that the militancy was hurting us more than helping us.

00:05:08.000 It's very good to have a very strong commitment to one's identity, one's group identity, and to be proud and all that sort of thing.

00:05:21.000 But that's not an end.

00:05:23.000 That's good, but you have to become competitive in the modern world.

00:05:31.000 Otherwise you will languish in poverty no matter what your identity is.

00:05:37.000 And so it became clearer and clearer as I sort of marched through graduate school and began my career as an academic, that it was time to grow up and to join America rather than fight America, that my future really was with America.

00:06:00.000 And also, by this time, one very important thing did happen.

00:06:06.000 I call this the Great Confession.

00:06:09.000 And that is that in the 60s, in the mid-60s, when the Civil Rights Bill passed in 64, America effectively confessed to colluding for four centuries with a horrific evil, racism.

00:06:26.000 But from President Johnson on down, America confessed to that in the 60s, owned up to it, and I think it is the most transformative moment in all of American history by far, and we've only just begun to really understand the fallout from that confession, the kind of pressures that's introduced into society, white guilt certainly being one of them.

00:06:53.000 But I did become aware that America This miraculous thing was going to actually admit what they'd done and try to correct it.

00:07:06.000 I don't know if that's ever happened anywhere else in human history, but it happened in America, and so I don't think we've given ourselves credit for that.

00:07:21.000 But I saw it.

00:07:23.000 I saw a fundamental change.

00:07:26.000 And that change has only broadened and deepened since then.

00:07:32.000 We live in a very different world today.

00:07:34.000 This is not a time for me to be blacker than thou and raise my fist.

00:07:39.000 This is a time to get busy and start a business or get prepared to join the modern world and live in a free, Democracy, an open society in which we have now, for the very first time, the opportunity to begin to live not as members of a race, a beleaguered race, but as individuals.

00:08:03.000 As human beings who are free to pursue their aspirations as they wish, I feel very fortunate to have lived through this transformation from the dark days of segregation to the America that is now wide open before me.

00:08:23.000 So in a second, I want to ask you why it is that while this transformation has occurred, and it's obvious on every objective level that a transformation has occurred in American life, why it seems so hard for so many people to accept that a transformation has occurred.

00:08:35.000 I want to ask you about that in just one second.

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00:09:34.000 So let's talk about the fact that America has obviously transformed.

00:09:37.000 There's a major difference between America circa 1960 and America circa 2020.

00:09:41.000 But the way that you hear so many people talk about America in 2020 is as though nothing has changed.

00:09:47.000 You have high profile authors, well-regarded writers, Pulitzer Prize winners like Nicole Hannah-Jones or Ta-Nehisi Coates, basically writing essays in which they talk about an atrocity that happened in 1915 and then immediately fast forward to 2020 and act as though there were no intervening events.

00:10:05.000 How is it that that has become intellectually credible?

00:10:09.000 It seems so perfectly obvious that things have radically changed since the 1960s.

00:10:12.000 Racism is the worst sin in American life and it is the thing that if you are called a racist, it can literally finish your career whether it's justified or not.

00:10:20.000 I mean, that's how much Americans abhor racism at this point and yet it is still treated.

00:10:26.000 The issue of racism is still treated as though systemic, as though most Americans secretly harbor racist feelings.

00:10:32.000 And you've talked before about the shifting definition of racism itself.

00:10:35.000 Maybe you can talk a little bit about why you think racism is still considered such a major part of American life despite the transformational change.

00:10:42.000 Okay, I'd be happy to.

00:10:44.000 For one reason, when there was this great confession that I mentioned that America owned up to its past and we created a war on poverty and we created all sorts of social programs, public housing, welfare, so forth, what became clear, one of the offshoots of that confession

00:11:10.000 was that victimization, our victimization as blacks, our victimization at the hands of broader America, became our power.

00:11:22.000 It was the first time in American history we had power to wield in American life because America itself had confessed.

00:11:33.000 And so we had that moral authority for the first time.

00:11:38.000 In American life.

00:11:40.000 And it became our primary source of power in society.

00:11:46.000 We could claim racism.

00:11:49.000 And what could America say?

00:11:50.000 They had already admitted to racism.

00:11:53.000 And so, we began to believe, and this is the tragedy of this, that victimization became our identity, became the center of who we are.

00:12:07.000 You want to make a black person angry? 1.00

00:12:12.000 Tell them that they're not a victim.

00:12:15.000 It's intolerable to hear that because, again, the idea that we are victims is our entree to power and to American society.

00:12:25.000 Hannah Jones at the New York Times is simply reinforcing the old theory of black victimization as power. 1.00

00:12:33.000 She's just saying, look at all of this victimization.

00:12:36.000 Look at what you owe us.

00:12:39.000 Look at how you must follow our lead, morally.

00:12:43.000 Look at how immoral you were.

00:12:47.000 And boy, that's a lot of power.

00:12:49.000 It has transformed our entire educational system, political correctness.

00:12:59.000 It's had a tremendous impact.

00:13:02.000 So even though we are now free, Freedom is not that interesting in black America. 1.00

00:13:08.000 What's interesting is this enormous power that befell us in the 60s when America owned up to its past.

00:13:17.000 And that's what we protect.

00:13:19.000 And the entire grievance industry in America It's based on that.

00:13:26.000 You owe us.

00:13:28.000 Our victimization is our ticket to ride.

00:13:31.000 It is our authority in American life.

00:13:33.000 You have to come to us.

00:13:36.000 One of the difficult things is to tell a group that never had any power.

00:13:40.000 Suddenly they have a kind of moral power.

00:13:43.000 It's difficult to accept that that moral power they now have is killing them, is hurting them.

00:13:51.000 A very difficult point to make.

00:13:53.000 They look at me and they say, oh my God, you're giving up, you're walking away from what we fought for.

00:14:01.000 We now finally have the power to make universities, get rid of the SAT test.

00:14:07.000 We can do all sorts of things that we never could do before, and you want us to drop that.

00:14:18.000 Well, I do, because the thing about victimization as power is that you become your own enemy.

00:14:25.000 You victimize yourself in the long run, and you get nowhere.

00:14:29.000 And so after 60 years now of using victimization as power, black America is farther behind white America than we were in the 50s when I was a kid. 0.75

00:14:42.000 When I was growing up.

00:14:45.000 So this power of victimization has turned on us and is choking us at this point.

00:14:54.000 It breaks my heart to go to campuses and you see young black kids and they're all huddled off and they're black power this and black power that and black lives matter and all that sort of struggling.

00:15:07.000 You see it's painful, it's struggling. 0.70

00:15:10.000 To keep victimization alive as power, as the power in the black community. 1.00

00:15:16.000 So, why do you think it is that so many members of the white community have gone along with this?

00:15:22.000 I mean, it would be one thing to say, you know, back in 1965 that huge swaths of Americans had acknowledged their guilt because they had in fact been complicit in racism.

00:15:31.000 I was born in 1984, so I was born 20 years after the Civil Rights Act.

00:15:35.000 And I frankly don't feel racial guilt because I don't believe that I've acted in racially intolerant ways.

00:15:41.000 But you see huge swaths of particularly young white Americans who are going along with this and browbeating others, engaging in malice struggle sessions in which they confess their own guilt for complicity in a systemically racist system.

00:15:55.000 What do you think is the attraction for white Americans to go along with the narrative where they are inherently the victimizers?

00:16:02.000 What happened to white America when America confessed its wrongdoing is that America endured at that moment a tremendous loss of moral authority. 0.52

00:16:19.000 And it's just human.

00:16:21.000 When you confess, I did it, all right, I'm sorry, well, okay, now you will pay a price.

00:16:31.000 And that is what happened to white America, is that they were judged to be racist, they had colluded with evil, and so now they lived under the accusation that they were racist, and that they had been a part of this.

00:16:48.000 And so they may have done absolutely nothing to justify feeling guilty whatsoever.

00:16:55.000 White guilt has no connection whatsoever to personal feelings.

00:17:02.000 It is a circumstance that you are living in a society that does not trust you.

00:17:09.000 that has this against you, that holds this history against you.

00:17:14.000 And so what whites then have to struggle for and have since the 60s is their innocence of racism, of proving, oh, not me, I'm not a racist. 0.96

00:17:28.000 And that need to prove is what blacks take advantage of. 1.00

00:17:35.000 Okay, then do this, and do that, and so forth and so on, and change your curriculum here, and start an HR program there, have another, so forth and so on. 0.97

00:17:48.000 And whites do it because they want that innocence. 0.63

00:17:51.000 They want to be able to say, look, I support affirmative action.

00:17:55.000 I'm all for it.

00:17:57.000 I support diversity.

00:17:59.000 Let's have different colored faces in everything we do, so that we can prove we are innocent of that historical accusation that we are evil racists.

00:18:12.000 Anything to get away from that.

00:18:15.000 And so, you know, one race begins to enable another race. 0.81

00:18:20.000 We have a sort of a symbiotic connection of whites exploiting blacks all over again in order, this time, to recapture some innocence. 0.87

00:18:31.000 And power. 0.96

00:18:33.000 Blacks sort of selling themselves out to guilty whites in order to have the illusion that victimization is their power and so forth. 1.00

00:18:44.000 So it gets to be a kind of sad symbiosis that we are caught in and we never honestly talk about it. 0.97

00:18:55.000 But we're all nervous about it.

00:18:57.000 We're all nervous.

00:19:01.000 We all hope for the best, I think, but history is powerful, and America has a very unique history.

00:19:12.000 We're far, far ahead of much of the rest of the world in this regard, but we have a long way to go.

00:19:21.000 It seems like there's something else that has happened here, too.

00:19:24.000 And that's not just that there's an attempt by both, you know, guilty whites and some black Americans to push for particular policy prescriptions and sort of gimmies. 0.71

00:19:34.000 But there's something now that's going on that's completely, I think, unprecedented, which is that You are only declared to be not racist for a certain period of time if you acknowledge your racism.

00:19:44.000 So in other words, if you say as a white person, I'm not racist, I'm colorblind, and I see everybody as an individual, this is in fact used as evidence of your racism.

00:19:53.000 Whereas if you then declare that you are in fact a racist by dint of the color of your skin and through racial essentialization, then you are not racist, but you are also racist because you just acknowledge that you're racist.

00:20:04.000 So it's a complete catch-22.

00:20:05.000 There's literally no way for white Americans to escape The charges of racism, either you admit that you're a racist, in which case we say, okay, well, at least you were honest enough to admit you're a racist, but that means you're kind of a racist because you just admitted it, or you won't acknowledge your own racism, in which case we absolutely 100% know that you're a racist. 0.50

00:20:21.000 That's right.

00:20:23.000 And the power to put whites in that position is what black power is, is the power that comes from our moral authority as victims, as historical victims. 0.98

00:20:37.000 And so we enjoy sort of squeezing whites in this impossible circumstance. 0.99

00:20:47.000 But it helps, again, obviously, Whites do not have, at this moment in America, I'm speaking broad terms here, whites do not have the moral confidence to resist this. 0.87

00:21:02.000 To say, hey, call me a racist, whatever you want. 0.78

00:21:06.000 I believe this.

00:21:08.000 I stand by this.

00:21:10.000 And I'll argue on the terms of whatever it is I stand by.

00:21:15.000 I'm not going to be blackmailed, intimidated about simply being white and simply having a connection to people in the past who were also white.

00:21:29.000 does not mean that I am evil and that I am a racist.

00:21:34.000 If you can't accept that, too bad. 0.69

00:21:36.000 Whites simply do not in America have the moral confidence to do that, to say that. 1.00

00:21:42.000 That's why we're stuck. 0.98

00:21:44.000 When whites begin to rediscover their confidence and accept the fact that they are not racists, and that they want to treat everybody as individuals, and they practice that, Race problem be over. 0.62

00:22:01.000 Black power will be over. 1.00

00:22:03.000 We'll have to take victimization and go home. 0.87

00:22:05.000 It doesn't work anymore.

00:22:07.000 Right now, it's just, whites just, this morning, Amazon canceled the film that I just am coming out with, just as they gave $10 million to Black Lives Matter and other left-wing black groups.

00:22:25.000 Well, that's white guilt.

00:22:28.000 They don't believe in the money that they gave.

00:22:30.000 They don't care what they do with the money. 1.00

00:22:36.000 They are buying their own innocence.

00:22:38.000 They're saying, our brand is not racist. 1.00

00:22:44.000 If you give money to Shelby Steele, or you just even put his film up on your platform, you're a bigot, you're a racist, you're a horrible person. 1.00

00:22:55.000 So forth. 1.00

00:22:57.000 Well, I suffer today from the lack of confidence that whites have. 0.98

00:23:04.000 That now is a big problem in my life and in my work.

00:23:09.000 I'm someone who grew up fighting against segregation.

00:23:14.000 Now I'm fighting against it all over again.

00:23:16.000 So in a second, I want to ask you about exactly that sort of turn where so many of the things of the past that were considered to be the beacons of hope, the things that we aspired to as a society, have now become the obstacles, the enemies that we have to get rid of in pursuit of anti-racism in the sort of pernicious definition of the Ibram Kendi's and Robin DiAngelo's.

00:23:33.000 We'll get to that in just one second.

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00:24:39.000 So let's talk about what you're referring to there with regard to the sort of fight against segregation again.

00:24:46.000 It seems like there's so many of these ideals that were the purpose of the civil rights movement of the 40s and 50s and the early 60s.

00:24:53.000 These ideals that we build statues of Martin Luther King, not because we agree with his economic philosophies, but because specifically of his vision of individuals being treated as individuals.

00:25:03.000 I mean, that is what school children learn.

00:25:05.000 It's why he deserves his own day.

00:25:06.000 I mean, this is why people celebrate Martin Luther King on a broad scale across the United States.

00:25:11.000 And yet we have seen that the woke culture has pushed so far that individualism is now seen as a hallmark of white culture.

00:25:18.000 There was a display at the National Smithsonian, at the National Museum of African American History, in which they declared that aspect of white supremacy in American culture included things like being timely, having a work ethic, believing that you should delay gratification, a belief in individualism, a belief in problem solving. Now it seems to me that if you want anybody to succeed, these are just things that they need to engage in. But according to the Smithsonian and the National Museum of African American History, these were

00:25:47.000 aspects of white supremacy. And so we have to abolish all of our traditional notions of cause and effect of good behavior and bad behavior in pursuit of the belief that individual actions don't matter at all and all problems can be chalked up to broad societal discrimination. This is how desperate white institutional America is for innocence of racism.

00:26:10.000 They will go to these lengths Uh, to, to advertise, to try to advertise their own innocence to the world.

00:26:18.000 Um, these are people entire you, as you said, have not probably have no personal guilt, whatever.

00:26:24.000 And yet their, their whole politics, their whole, uh, orientation toward American life, uh, is, is, uh, is, is around again, victimization, uh, and their, their need for innocence.

00:26:40.000 They just will do anything to reclaim innocence.

00:26:48.000 I remember when I was in my black militant stage as a kid in college, and I ran into a white man one night in a hotel lobby, and just for the heck of it, I told him that he should give me $25, right then and there. 0.80

00:27:08.000 Uh, because he was white and he was a racist and he needed to pay off.

00:27:12.000 And of course he gave me about 40. 0.94

00:27:14.000 Well, you know, it's, it's, it's tempting.

00:27:19.000 You know, the imagination goes wild.

00:27:21.000 I could, I could really fan this into something and, and open up, put out a shingle and innocence here coming, you know, we've got, we've got a sale today.

00:27:32.000 Um, But it's not funny, it's tragic, and white America is lost to this.

00:27:39.000 The young are just preoccupied with this idea of establishing their innocence of this evil.

00:27:48.000 And people like Hannah Jones are just sort of smirking and smiling, and the puppeteer pulling all the strings.

00:27:58.000 Someday whites are going to wake up. 1.00

00:28:00.000 God knows when.

00:28:02.000 I thought it would have happened by now.

00:28:04.000 I thought they would have gotten tired of being jacked up like this, but apparently not.

00:28:13.000 So if you're trying to sell truth, if you're trying to point to—here's the truth.

00:28:21.000 Blacks went through four centuries of oppression.

00:28:24.000 You go through that, when you come out of it, finally, as we did in the 60s, you're going to be underdeveloped.

00:28:32.000 They didn't have Harvards for us back in the days of segregation.

00:28:39.000 That was our big liability when we walked into freedom, when we stepped into freedom, is that we needed desperately development, education, economic development.

00:28:51.000 We needed to join America, become a part of the great American experiment, and find parity with all other groups.

00:29:00.000 That's what we needed.

00:29:03.000 We were so drunk on our power as victims that we, to this day, 60 years later, cling to that victimization, and we hate any minorities who don't. 1.00

00:29:17.000 If you don't cling to your victimization, you're an Uncle Tom, and that's the end of you.

00:29:22.000 You're canceled. 0.98

00:29:25.000 So, again, the people who think They are helping blacks, are simply re-colonizing blacks. 0.94

00:29:38.000 And now blacks live and sort of facilitate white innocence, rather than actually move ahead on their own and become independent individuals functioning in a free society. 0.84

00:29:53.000 We don't have the cultural history.

00:29:56.000 We never had to deal with freedom.

00:29:59.000 Now we do.

00:30:01.000 Freedom is our biggest problem now.

00:30:03.000 Not racism.

00:30:04.000 Racism is so far down on the list, it means nothing.

00:30:09.000 We're afraid of freedom.

00:30:10.000 We don't know what to do with freedom.

00:30:11.000 How to live in it.

00:30:13.000 How to make it work for us.

00:30:15.000 That's our real world challenge. 0.97

00:30:21.000 And, again, whites who are longing for their innocence and rolling over for black victims, they now are the enemy, because they diminish us to nothing but sort of icons that facilitate their innocence and their power all over again. 0.96

00:30:44.000 I guess history does repeat itself in that sense. 0.87

00:30:49.000 So you talked about working in the social welfare system, and obviously in the 1960s there was a real push for a sort of racial reparation via social welfare programs and the Great Society programs.

00:30:59.000 The idea expressed by LBJ is that, well, now the sort of barriers had been removed, If you had all of the runners at the start line and one of the runners was 20 yards behind the start line, then somehow we had to find a way to get the person 20 yards behind the start line up to the start line. That's what the social welfare programs were for. But it seems like in many ways the social welfare programs actually inhibited the ability for that runner to ever catch up.

00:31:23.000 And there have been a lot of minority groups in the United States who have started off 20 yards behind the start line compared to white America.

00:31:29.000 Many of those minority groups now routinely outperform white Americans in terms of income, including many groups of African immigrants.

00:31:35.000 Nigerian Americans, for example, outperform white Americans in terms of income.

00:31:40.000 So maybe you can talk a little bit about social welfare programs.

00:31:43.000 Was it just well-intentioned and it went wrong?

00:31:48.000 What exactly happened with the social welfare programs?

00:31:50.000 Why didn't it help achieve this?

00:31:52.000 Very specifically, what happened was, because whites were longing for their innocence, what whites did was literally steal away from black people agency over their own fate, over their own lives. 0.85

00:32:12.000 LBJ said, put your life in my hands. 0.76

00:32:16.000 I will give you an Upward Bound program.

00:32:19.000 I will expand welfare payments.

00:32:22.000 I will have school busing.

00:32:23.000 I will have public housing.

00:32:25.000 On and on.

00:32:27.000 I am the actor.

00:32:29.000 I am the agent of your uplift, of your fate.

00:32:33.000 Not you.

00:32:34.000 You are nothing but a sort of cipher for my innocence. 0.98

00:32:44.000 We blacks, not quite knowing how to handle freedom yet, bought into that and sold our soul away.

00:32:54.000 We put agency, we said, okay, you be the agent of my uplift. 0.99

00:33:01.000 You're right, you did commit, you were ugly, you were racist, so forth. 0.98

00:33:06.000 So now you can redeem yourself by uplifting me. 0.97

00:33:11.000 Well, When you look at that, you're giving away agency to your own uplift.

00:33:16.000 You're putting it in somebody else's hands.

00:33:19.000 When, in all of human history, has that ever worked?

00:33:25.000 You don't give up agency and then think you're going to somehow miraculously get ahead.

00:33:30.000 You want agency.

00:33:32.000 Here's what we should have said.

00:33:34.000 We should have said to white America and to Lyndon Johnson, thank you, but no thanks.

00:33:39.000 You worry about your innocence.

00:33:41.000 We'll worry about our development.

00:33:44.000 We'll focus as individuals.

00:33:46.000 We will become better educated than you.

00:33:48.000 We will out-compete you.

00:33:51.000 We don't want your help.

00:33:53.000 We have our own honor, our own sense of dignity, our own self-possession.

00:33:59.000 We fail to do that.

00:34:02.000 The end of many, many, many, many, many, and I mean many, individual blacks did do that. 0.94

00:34:11.000 And they are thriving today.

00:34:14.000 And we see them everywhere in every walk of life, making the point that if one wants to really take charge of one's faith and move ahead, You're free to do that today in America.

00:34:26.000 You can become literally the president, if that's what you want to do.

00:34:30.000 You can become the CEO of a major corporation.

00:34:33.000 You can become an artist.

00:34:35.000 You can become a veterinarian.

00:34:37.000 You can do whatever you want.

00:34:40.000 And the government will never, ever, under any circumstances, be able to do that for you.

00:34:47.000 It's a kind of sick, Again, symbiotic bond that came out of this Great Confession in the 60s.

00:35:01.000 Both groups got blinded and made a very quick, down-and-dirty deal.

00:35:07.000 That's why I think of Lyndon Johnson's Great Society as a down-and-dirty deal.

00:35:13.000 He said, basically, I need the innocents to have legitimacy As the president and keep the government legitimate and so forth.

00:35:26.000 I need that.

00:35:27.000 So I'm going to give you all these programs even though they don't do anything whatsoever, but teach you corruption, embroil you in corruption.

00:35:37.000 I worked in those programs for three years.

00:35:40.000 I've never seen so much corruption in my life.

00:35:42.000 It was just wide open.

00:35:44.000 You have to fight for your life.

00:35:46.000 I had to get out of there or sink into that.

00:35:51.000 Uh, and I was lucky.

00:35:53.000 I was very lucky.

00:35:53.000 I had two good parents and talked a lot and finally found my way, uh, out of there.

00:36:00.000 Um, yeah, but that's what we, we, we, we now have to do.

00:36:04.000 We have to get away from that.

00:36:06.000 We have to get away from our symbiotic relationship to white people. 0.99

00:36:10.000 Uh, I don't want to have any, I want to be a human being.

00:36:14.000 I want to be a citizen of the United States.

00:36:17.000 I want to relate to all other human citizens.

00:36:20.000 What your race is, I don't care. 0.99

00:36:22.000 So let's talk for a second about why it is that so many, you mentioned there's so many prominent black Americans with wild levels of success.

00:36:30.000 There's so many black Americans who are middle class and above.

00:36:33.000 I know that the media tend to portray only poverty and suffering in the black community.

00:36:39.000 You hear politicians routinely talk about how to be black in America means to suffer.

00:36:43.000 in America as though the average income for a black household in the United States is in $58,000 or as though the vast majority of black Americans are living in abject poverty which simply isn't true. Why is it that we don't see more black Americans saying exactly what you're saying which is I've been able to make my way in this society.

00:37:02.000 If you make the right decisions, you can make your way in this society, too.

00:37:05.000 Instead, it seems like with increased levels of prominence, many black Americans speak out more loudly about how America is racist.

00:37:14.000 We've mentioned Nikole Hannah-Jones several times.

00:37:16.000 I mean, this is a person who went to a top university.

00:37:17.000 She obviously has been granted the keys to the car over at the New York Times.

00:37:20.000 You see Karen Attia at the Washington Post, who's the daughter of African immigrants doing the same thing. 0.97

00:37:25.000 You see people at the top of the entertainment industry.

00:37:28.000 LeBron James does this, making hundreds of millions of dollars per year.

00:37:32.000 Barack Obama became President of the United States and then suggested that America was still struggling with systemic racism and made comments about Ferguson, Missouri, which we'll discuss in a second.

00:37:42.000 The reason is they don't believe in themselves.

00:37:44.000 They don't believe in black people. 0.55

00:37:45.000 ignoring the facts of the case in order to make these particular comments. So why is it that we don't see more prominent black Americans say what so many prominent members of other minority races in America say to their kids and to their compatriots, which is what a great country and we can absolutely rise in this country. The reason is they don't believe in themselves. 0.98

00:38:05.000 They don't believe in black people. 0.83

00:38:10.000 I believe in black people. I believe they should do exactly what you just said, what you're talking about.

00:38:19.000 That's our only future.

00:38:21.000 You only get what you make for yourself.

00:38:28.000 That's the obligation of freedom, is you have to make something of yourself.

00:38:32.000 But they simply, one of the problems in black American life, this comes from four centuries of oppression, is faithlessness.

00:38:44.000 In your group.

00:38:46.000 Your group was oppressed.

00:38:48.000 Somebody's heel was on their neck.

00:38:51.000 They were denigrated.

00:38:53.000 They were dehumanized.

00:38:58.000 And part of the formerly oppressed person's struggle is to have faith.

00:39:08.000 In precisely those people, one's own people, who come from all of that, to love them and have faith in them.

00:39:20.000 The biggest problem in black America is faithlessness. 0.99

00:39:24.000 We don't believe in ourselves.

00:39:26.000 We don't believe we'll be able to compete.

00:39:29.000 All of the ugly bigotries of the white past, we on some secret level, where we don't admit it to ourselves even, Believe that, and therefore lack the faith to take our lives into our own hands and make something, and make a life. 0.98

00:39:49.000 We say to protect ourselves, that's a fool's game. 0.99

00:39:54.000 This is a racist world, a racist society. 1.00

00:39:57.000 That's to work hard, and so that's for fools. 1.00

00:40:02.000 And a white man, those are Uncle Tom's. 0.99

00:40:06.000 White man always believes in them. 0.55

00:40:11.000 Well, you know, we have to face this problem of faithlessness.

00:40:17.000 And we have to raise our children ready.

00:40:21.000 We have to completely Are you reading to your children?

00:40:26.000 Are you developing them intellectually?

00:40:29.000 Are you developing them their academic skills, their interpersonal skills, the values?

00:40:38.000 Are you building strong, independent people who will be able to be responsible for their own advancement?

00:40:46.000 Are you doing that?

00:40:48.000 If you're not, you're worse than racism.

00:40:52.000 You're contributing to a life of inferiority and struggle.

00:40:56.000 We have it backwards.

00:41:02.000 It is heartbreaking.

00:41:05.000 Another problem is that we live in such an absolutely wealthy society.

00:41:10.000 Society can give us all—the figure I keep hearing is the last 50 years that America has spent $22, $23 trillion on social programs.

00:41:23.000 That's a lot of bait to tempt me away from this more rigorous self-development and into the idea that I can manipulate, maneuver, game my way ahead, and so forth.

00:41:36.000 In a wealthy society, you can do that.

00:41:40.000 Well, I'm on the wrong side of the fence.

00:41:41.000 I didn't get any of that.

00:41:43.000 Not a dime.

00:41:43.000 to continue to dump it on people. It's just an Amazon, 10 million dollars, they wake up and and give it, give that away. Well, I'm on the wrong side of the fence. I didn't get any of that, not a dime. They canceled me. So let's talk about that in just one second.

00:42:01.000 I want to ask you about the documentary, What Killed Michael Brown, that is going to be available somewhere, but apparently not Amazon.

00:42:07.000 We'll get to that in just one second.

00:42:08.000 But first, let's talk about censorship on social media sites and what you can do about it.

00:42:12.000 The left wants to silence and remove any voices they don't like.

00:42:15.000 Twitter and Facebook, these were supposed to be open platforms.

00:42:18.000 I don't need their content moderators acting like the op-ed section of the New York Times.

00:42:21.000 Instead of letting those social media sites revoke your right to free speech, how about revoking their right to your data?

00:42:27.000 Now, you could just deactivate all your social media accounts, but that would be giving the left just what they wanted in the first place.

00:42:31.000 Instead, use ExpressVPN the way I do.

00:42:34.000 If you've ever wondered how free-to-access sites like Facebook make their money, well, they track your searches, video history, everything you click on, and then they sell your valuable data.

00:42:42.000 When you use ExpressVPN, you anonymize much of your online presence by hiding that IP address.

00:42:47.000 That makes your activity more difficult to trace and sell to advertisers.

00:42:50.000 And ExpressVPN could not be easier to set up.

00:42:52.000 You just tap one button on your phone or computer, and you're now protected.

00:42:55.000 ExpressVPN also encrypts 100% of your data to help protect you from hackers and internet bad guys.

00:43:00.000 So, now is the time to say no to censorship.

00:43:02.000 Take back your online privacy today at expressvpn.com slash ben.

00:43:06.000 By visiting my special link, you get an extra three months of ExpressVPN service for free.

00:43:11.000 Again, that's e-x-p-r-e-s-s-vpn.com slash ben.

00:43:14.000 Expressvpn.com slash ben to get started.

00:43:16.000 Okay, so you've now referred to this documentary that you made, What Killed Michael Brown.

00:43:20.000 I had a chance to watch a large segment of it last night.

00:43:23.000 It is, you know, incredibly incisive and emotionally devastating because it really does take on some very serious issues.

00:43:31.000 So what was the impetus behind making a documentary about the Michael Brown shooting?

00:43:37.000 We wanted to debunk this idea of victimization as power.

00:43:42.000 uh michael brown the the reason michael brown would become so explosive and and uh more recently here george floyd and so forth and others the reason these events become so explosive is because they represent They seem to morally give moral authority to blacks as victims.

00:44:05.000 They seem to reinforce our whole black pathology, which sees victimization as our great power. 0.98

00:44:13.000 And my God, white cop with a shoots and kills a black teenager. 1.00

00:44:20.000 There it is. 1.00

00:44:21.000 That's four centuries of racism right there.

00:44:24.000 You owe me.

00:44:26.000 And I will grant you your innocence, but you'll have to pay for it.

00:44:31.000 So all of a sudden, the President of the United States, the Attorney General of the United States, everybody is in Ferguson, Missouri, anguishing over the shooting of Michael Brown, black teenager. 0.95

00:44:43.000 Well, they're there because it just flows over with black power. 1.00

00:44:51.000 If Michael Brown was really shot and killed out of a racial animus, Then think of all the power that redounds then to all of black America. 0.91

00:45:02.000 We can just sort of work that angle for ten more years.

00:45:09.000 And so all of these events like this, George Floyd and so forth, they're all this sort of This temptation, everybody knows power is to be had in these events.

00:45:24.000 Who's going to get the power?

00:45:26.000 And of course, blacks are, here it is. 0.99

00:45:29.000 We've now had 60 years of victimization being our primary source of power. 0.55

00:45:33.000 And so, anyway, we wanted to go in and show exactly that corruption and point to some of the damage that's done.

00:45:47.000 And then we wanted to look toward the end of the film at some positive activities that are going on in the black community.

00:45:55.000 There are people doing some miraculous work.

00:45:57.000 We interviewed a pastor who has his church right in the Woodlawn area, the south side of Chicago, where the murder rate is over the roof.

00:46:09.000 We talked to former drug dealers. We looked at public housing. We looked at all, again, the offshoots of this sort of thing, to try to point the way ahead.

00:46:29.000 And...

00:46:30.000 And I particularly liked the end of the film, where I go back to my father's childhood home in Kentucky.

00:46:41.000 And I remember, reminisce, of these people.

00:46:46.000 My grandfather was actually born a slave.

00:46:49.000 Not my great-grandfather, my literal grandfather was actually born a slave.

00:46:58.000 came forward in Camp Nelson, Kentucky.

00:47:01.000 And my father, how he, from the age of 14 on, was on his own and had to make his way in the world and teach himself to read and write.

00:47:12.000 And so I wanted to honor that selfless struggle on the part of black Americans.

00:47:21.000 Our greatness comes from those people.

00:47:24.000 They did it.

00:47:24.000 They didn't go around begging for white goodwill.

00:47:28.000 All they wanted was, don't discriminate against me.

00:47:34.000 My father hated the idea of public housing.

00:47:36.000 Thought it was just a ticket to hell.

00:47:39.000 He could see that coming. 0.96

00:47:41.000 And many other blacks in our neighborhood did.

00:47:44.000 And we rejected it.

00:47:46.000 But that white guilt is hard to, maybe they rejected it, but do their kids?

00:47:55.000 Pretty soon they begin to be bought off, one by one by one by one.

00:48:00.000 Here's an easier road for you.

00:48:03.000 And you look up and you're under the power of people who are, look, it's the problem with white guilt.

00:48:12.000 Social programs that look out after white power. 0.99

00:48:18.000 White power, white innocence, and white power. 0.88

00:48:22.000 And you become, just again, a cipher, a means to that end.

00:48:26.000 At the end of the film, we try to really get into that and I think have some moving moments.

00:48:32.000 At least they were moving to me when we filmed them.

00:48:36.000 And so now you've found out that Amazon won't even offer the film for sale?

00:48:41.000 Is that where things are right now?

00:48:43.000 Nope.

00:48:43.000 They sent us a letter that Said, not only will we not do it, but don't try to resubmit it.

00:48:52.000 Don't change the title.

00:48:54.000 Don't do anything.

00:48:55.000 We don't want it.

00:48:57.000 Ever.

00:48:58.000 So, to make a statement, certain friends of mine have been cancelled from Twitter.

00:49:08.000 Think tanks are rearranging themselves.

00:49:12.000 And again, we've got this whole canceling phenomenon that I'm going to cancel evil.

00:49:21.000 I'm going to cancel some perniciousness in the name of the good.

00:49:29.000 Well, what's the good to Amazon?

00:49:32.000 The good is Black Lives Matter, Well, I'm not going to waste time getting into what they are, but I think they're completely on the wrong track. 1.00

00:49:47.000 They will keep us mired, celebrating ourselves as victims forevermore.

00:49:52.000 Well, so now I'm going to ask you to go on the wrong track there and actually describe what you think of the Black Lives Matter movement, because obviously it has had this massive impact on our politics, and we've seen corporations going woke across the country.

00:50:04.000 We've seen the NBA decide to dedicate entire sidelines on national broadcasts, to their sloganeering, changing the jerseys on the back of the jerseys so you can put the names of people who have allegedly been unjustly killed by the police.

00:50:18.000 You've seen every major politician pay lip service to Black Lives Matter, which is a semantically overloaded phrase.

00:50:24.000 I mean, it can mean a few things.

00:50:26.000 One, the obviously true statement that Black Lives Matter, because they do. 1.00

00:50:29.000 It can mean the movement, which is the assumption that America is systemically racist and that black Americans are at unique risk of being murdered in the United States, which is certainly not true from the police.

00:50:39.000 It may be true statistically, but it really has very little to do with white Americans doing the murdering, unfortunately.

00:50:45.000 And then it could mean the Black Lives Matter organization, which is actually just a neo-Marxist front group, But I want to get your thoughts on Black Lives Matter, which, again, has become this sort of tautological statement, and you have to say it. 0.91

00:50:57.000 And if you don't say it, then this obviously means that you're a racist.

00:51:01.000 Well, they break my heart.

00:51:03.000 They, first of all, make me sad to have lived through what I've lived through and to see what black America has stood for and fought for.

00:51:14.000 I think of my father's generation and earlier, Men and women who survived the most horrific sort of oppression, violent, murderous oppression for centuries.

00:51:32.000 And to come to a place and see our young people using that history of victimization to hide away from the challenges of freedom that we face today.

00:51:45.000 It's heartbreaking for somebody my age to see that.

00:51:48.000 You finally got a chance to do anything you want.

00:51:52.000 And all you're going to do is talk about victimization?

00:51:57.000 Well, when they talk about systemic racism and so forth, I call it compensatory racism.

00:52:07.000 It is a faith in racism, an emphasis on racism, because the reality is racism has declined.

00:52:20.000 radically declined.

00:52:22.000 It's just not there anymore.

00:52:24.000 And so we have to come up with new terms like systemic and structural racism and so forth to bring back that old oppression that we endured for four centuries.

00:52:39.000 That's sad.

00:52:42.000 We now, when we bring that back, we say, now we know who we really are as black people.

00:52:49.000 That's not who we really were.

00:52:50.000 We were the people who fought for freedom and finally won it.

00:52:55.000 But we don't get credit for that.

00:52:58.000 We don't give ourselves credit for that.

00:52:59.000 We whine. 1.00

00:53:01.000 We want whites to give us more junk. 1.00

00:53:04.000 And of course, they're rich, and they can do that. 1.00

00:53:08.000 And they do do that.

00:53:10.000 And so then we're inflated in our illusions.

00:53:15.000 And we think people like me, for example, are just hopeless over-the-hill Uncle Toms.

00:53:24.000 Well, again, it's heartbreaking.

00:53:26.000 It's sad to see young people sell themselves out that way.

00:53:33.000 To exhibit that level of faithlessness in their own abilities to develop and overcome.

00:53:41.000 I always ask them, well, what's your grade point average?

00:53:46.000 What are you doing to develop yourself?

00:53:48.000 Black students have the highest dropout rate and the lowest grade point average of any student group in America after 50 years of affirmative action. 0.82

00:53:57.000 We now have a bill to pay.

00:54:05.000 We're going to have to pay this bill.

00:54:09.000 And I don't know what generation will finally get there, but at some point, whites are going to turn around and say, we're done. 0.79

00:54:19.000 We're not enabling you anymore. 0.96

00:54:22.000 Enabling black people has become an American habit, a reflex. 1.00

00:54:27.000 that we do again because we just keep needing, wanting this innocence, wanting the power that comes from, the legitimacy that comes from being innocent, demonstrably innocent of racism.

00:54:43.000 So we'll give you more preferences, give you this, give you, give you, give you, as you sink, as you sink into this faithlessness in yourself.

00:54:53.000 in your cell.

00:54:54.000 Well, as you can see, it's kind of a stalemate that we've got going on here.

00:55:01.000 I'm not sure how it will break.

00:55:03.000 I know it will at some point.

00:55:06.000 I hope soon.

00:55:07.000 sooner than later.

00:55:08.000 And I think, you know, entered office with high hopes by most Americans that this was going to be maybe the final stage in the transition away from thinking racially in the country.

00:55:26.000 I mean, he sort of campaigned as, we're not red states, we're not blue states, we're the United States.

00:55:30.000 I'm both black and white, obviously, in my own ancestry.

00:55:34.000 Now, I can bring the country together.

00:55:36.000 It didn't end up that way.

00:55:36.000 I want to get your assessment of the Obama administration, of Barack and now Michelle, who's obviously a very prominent political figure in her own right, in one second.

00:55:44.000 First, I have to tell you, the amazing presidential election Is almost here.

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00:56:42.000 Alrighty, so let's talk about the Obama administration and Barack Obama.

00:56:47.000 As I say, for everybody, even people like me who did not vote for Barack Obama, I thought that he was a bad candidate.

00:56:53.000 I thought that he would be of the radical left politically.

00:56:57.000 I thought that he basically campaigned on a bunch of Warm Dover sloganeering.

00:57:02.000 But even for folks like me who didn't vote for Barack Obama, didn't back him, it was obviously an inspiring thing for the United States, which is a majority white country, to elect a black president after our history of slavery and Jim Crow.

00:57:14.000 Just that symbol is an inspiring thing.

00:57:17.000 It didn't appear to end that way.

00:57:19.000 You look at the polls of race relations, they really markedly declined during the Obama administration, even preceding the Trump administration.

00:57:25.000 What do you make of Barack Obama was a perfect sort of white fantasy.

00:57:28.000 And he was elected entirely, I think.

00:57:30.000 Entirely.

00:57:30.000 Now Michelle Obama, who's widely perceived to be maybe the future of the Democratic Party.

00:57:35.000 Barack Obama was a perfect sort of white fantasy. 0.80

00:57:40.000 And he was elected entirely, I think, entirely because he was black. 0.74

00:57:54.000 America's simple, and he was, as Joe Biden once said, He was clean.

00:58:00.000 I guess he showers every day and he spoke eloquent English.

00:58:05.000 And so he was, he was, in other words, he was innocuous.

00:58:11.000 He had no vision for the country that he ever articulated, no set of policies, coherent policies that would reflect some important vision for the country.

00:58:23.000 He just was a nice black kid who white people realized on some level wouldn't do much of anything except be black and be in the White House, so that White America could say, we're innocent of racism.

00:58:42.000 We are redeemed.

00:58:44.000 This is our redemption.

00:58:46.000 And so Obama was just a small player in a white, self-promotional sort of historical event.

00:58:57.000 That's all he was.

00:58:59.000 Again, he couldn't tell you today what his vision was for society, nor could all the white people who voted for him.

00:59:08.000 They don't know what he stood for.

00:59:10.000 He didn't stand for anything.

00:59:12.000 Again, that's the point.

00:59:14.000 He didn't get in the way of his message.

00:59:18.000 Which is that I'm a black person who's going to be the most powerful man in the world, and that's how innocent America is. 0.70

00:59:28.000 That's how wonderful America is racially. 0.70

00:59:32.000 They've overcome that shameful history of slavery and so forth, and now they have a black man in the White House.

00:59:39.000 Aren't they wonderful?

00:59:42.000 What did it mean in reality?

00:59:45.000 Are blacks somehow more equal today than they were before? 0.99

00:59:51.000 Have they somehow caught up with whites economically, educationally, otherwise? 0.87

00:59:57.000 No.

00:59:59.000 Nothing.

01:00:01.000 Except that whites can say, We're innocent of racism. 0.98

01:00:07.000 We elected a black president. 0.90

01:00:10.000 So, I mean, I think he has to be seen in the context of white guilt. 0.99

01:00:15.000 He's a white guilt president. 0.94

01:00:19.000 Beginning and the end. 0.98

01:00:20.000 And Michelle?

01:00:21.000 Same.

01:00:23.000 I don't see much difference there.

01:00:26.000 That's the game they both play. 0.94

01:00:30.000 Just a little bit every now and then of edginess around the race issue, just to keep their bona fides with militant blacks. 1.00

01:00:39.000 But no leadership, no sense of what ails black America, how it has to be overcome. 0.99

01:00:50.000 None of that.

01:00:51.000 So now I want to ask you your opinion of the Trump administration.

01:00:55.000 There's been a lot of talk about racism surrounding President Trump and the supposed innate racism of the American people in electing Trump in 2016.

01:01:03.000 Joe Biden has suggested that he's running almost entirely to repudiate Trump's personal racism.

01:01:10.000 What do you make of Trump as a figure, Trump's election, and the Trump administration?

01:01:15.000 I think that Trump is pretty much what he claims to be.

01:01:20.000 He wants to fix things.

01:01:22.000 He's a kind of Mr. Fix-It president.

01:01:25.000 And he does.

01:01:25.000 He's fixed any number of things.

01:01:29.000 But he is vulnerable because the left in America is driven by white guilt, defined by white guilt.

01:01:43.000 That couldn't be farther away from where Donald Trump is.

01:01:46.000 He just is not in this sort of... He offers no innocence to white America. 0.82

01:01:55.000 And therefore he's a racist and he's a bigot and he's regression to oppression and he wants and so forth and so on.

01:02:03.000 But the fact is he's just a pragmatic sort of unimaginative president who really does fix our trade relations with the Chinese, who changes, look at what he's done in the Middle East, really marvelous things that The Obama administration never got close to doing.

01:02:26.000 But again, he has no vision of white innocence. 0.52

01:02:31.000 And that's what the left wants today.

01:02:34.000 And that's what much of America still wants today, is this sort of white innocence.

01:02:44.000 I don't know whether we have to elect another Obama or not, but at some point there will be blacks who are themselves as human beings and who represent the politics, political point of view of the whole nation.

01:03:01.000 In a second, I want to ask you a couple final questions, starting with whether you think that white guilt or black victimization is going to alleviate first.

01:03:10.000 Which side in the sort of symbiotic racial relationship you've talked about is going to change its behavior first?

01:03:16.000 But if you actually want to hear Shelby Steele's answers, then you have to head on over to dailywire.com.

01:03:21.000 You can subscribe over there and hear the end of our conversation.

01:03:25.000 Well, Shelby Steele, as you know, I'm a big fan of your work.

01:03:28.000 People should go out, watch the documentary.

01:03:29.000 They should purchase all of your books, including White Guilt.

01:03:32.000 Really appreciate your time.

01:03:33.000 It's been an honor.

01:03:34.000 Well, it's been an honor to be here.

01:03:36.000 I've admired you.

01:03:37.000 You are your own man.

01:03:39.000 I admire you.

01:03:41.000 Hey, thanks so much.

01:03:42.000 much appreciated.

01:03:54.000 Executive producer, Jeremy Boring.

01:03:56.000 Our technical director is Austin Stevens.

01:03:58.000 And our assistant director is Pavel Lydowsky.

01:04:00.000 Associate producer, Nick Sheehan.

01:04:02.000 Our guests are booked by Caitlin Maynard.

01:04:04.000 Editing is by Jim Nickel.

01:04:05.000 Audio is mixed by Mike Koromina.

01:04:07.000 Hair and makeup is by Nika Geneva.

01:04:09.000 Title graphics are by Cynthia Angulo.

01:04:11.000 The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special is a Daily Wire production.

The Ben Shapiro Show - November 01, 2020

Shelby Steele | The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special Ep. 105

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