The Ben Shapiro Show - The Atlantic’s GIANT Fake News Screw-Up

00:00:00.000 Folks, we have a ton coming up on today's show, the final episode of the case for Zarek Chauvin, plus Malcolm Gladwell stops by to talk about all of that, and of course, all the big news of the day, the preparation for the Trump tariffs, the big race that's going on in Wisconsin for Supreme Court.

00:00:14.000 If you want more from The Ben Shapiro Show and The Daily Wire, even more than you normally get, it's time to become a Daily Wire Plus member.

00:00:19.000 You get member-exclusive shows, ad-free streaming, watch along with my producers in the chat, plus early access to our new releases.

00:00:27.000 Well, the media are on the hunt for a bad story that can hang around President Trump's neck.

00:00:45.000 President Trump continues to ride around 50% of the approval ratings, which is a historic high for him.

00:00:50.000 The public is giving him an enormous amount of leeway because, of course, He is still at the beginning of his second presidency.

00:00:55.000 There's tremendous warmth from many elements of his agenda, ranging from Doge to immigration, and so the media are on the lookout for a bad story, a bad story.

00:01:04.000 Now, they tried Signalgate, and Signalgate basically went nowhere because the truth is that everybody has at one point or another included somebody in a group chat by accident, and it gets very awkward and all the rest, and the actual result of Signalchat was kind of an embarrassing snafu, but the military strikes on the Houthis were totally successful, and in fact, The United States military is currently eviscerating the Houthis in Yemen.

00:01:26.000 So, people are sort of looking at that and saying, okay, not great, not wonderful, but is this a career-ending mistake for people inside the Trump administration?

00:01:34.000 Is this a total derailing of the Trump administration?

00:01:36.000 Probably not.

00:01:36.000 So, the media continue on their lookout.

00:01:39.000 And this is one of the things that the Trump administration has to be very careful about.

00:01:42.000 There are certain policy screw-ups that are so large that they can take down an administration.

00:01:46.000 As I've been saying, A bad economic downturn would seriously hamper President Trump's ability to do virtually anything, given the fact that he effectively has a one-vote majority in the House of Representatives.

00:01:57.000 But beyond that, there are also certain stories that are just so bad for an administration that they end up hampering their ability to do anything because associating with the administration becomes sort of toxic.

00:02:08.000 And there are many cases of this over the course of modern American history.

00:02:12.000 The truth is, the Hunter Biden laptop story hovered over The Biden administration for the entirety of the Biden administration.

00:02:18.000 The truth is that when it came to Barack Obama, Barack Obama's administration was seriously hampered, not just by Obamacare, but by Barack Obama's polarizing talk in 2012.

00:02:29.000 There are many such cases where a single story can shift an entire election cycle.

00:02:33.000 This happened in 2006.

00:02:34.000 Republicans looked like they were in decent shape for the midterm elections of 2006.

00:02:38.000 And then there was a Republican congressperson named Mark Foley, who it turned out had been sleeping with some of his aides, allegedly.

00:02:43.000 And because of that, Republicans ended up getting shellacked.

00:02:46.000 So all that is happening right now is the media are on the hunt for some sort of screw-up that is so bad that it seriously harms the Trump administration.

00:02:55.000 And the place that they are digging right now is in the immigration realm, because Trump is moving fast and breaking things in many realms, including the immigration realm.

00:03:02.000 And so there was a story by Nick Mirov from The Atlantic that supposedly was going to bring down the Trump administration, do serious damage to the Trump administration.

00:03:12.000 It's their lead today at the Atlantic.

00:03:14.000 It's called, An Administrative Error Sends a Maryland Father to a Salvadoran Prison.

00:03:19.000 And this was going to be a big takedown, right?

00:03:21.000 The idea being that the most popular element of Trump's agenda, by far right now, is his immigration portfolio.

00:03:27.000 President Trump has done more on the border than any president in modern American history, by far.

00:03:32.000 Basically, illegal immigration levels went from historic highs under Joe Biden to basically non-existent on our southern border Under President Trump.

00:03:39.000 And that is thanks, of course, to President Trump.

00:03:41.000 It's thanks to Tom Homan, the Borders Are.

00:03:43.000 It's thanks to Kristi Noem, the Department of Homeland Security Secretary.

00:03:46.000 It's thanks to Secretary of State Rubio, who's been very involved in deportation proceedings.

00:03:50.000 It is a whole of administration efforts, thanks to Stephen Miller, top advisor to the President.

00:03:54.000 It is by far the most successful element of the Trump administration thus far.

00:03:58.000 And so, if Democrats can find a sympathetic case of somebody being victimized, this is going to be the point of the spear at the beginning of their resistance.

00:04:06.000 And it sort of has to be, because they are actually not capable, fully, of shifting away from their open borders mentality.

00:04:13.000 And in our, unfortunately, reactionary politics, a bunch of false choices tend to obtain.

00:04:19.000 So it's either open border or totally closed border, nothing in between.

00:04:23.000 In any case, this piece from Nick Miroff says, an administrative error sends a Maryland father to a Salvadoran prison.

00:04:29.000 The Trump administration says it mistakenly deported an immigrant with protected status, but that courts are powerless to order his return.

00:04:35.000 And this is like the big, big story that is going to break the Trump administration.

00:04:39.000 Because, after all, The Atlantic has been on the hunt for this.

00:04:42.000 Jeffrey Goldberg was the editor of The Atlantic, who was included, accidentally, in that national security chat.

00:04:47.000 That was the big story of last week.

00:04:49.000 The big story of this week is going to be The Atlantic reporting a bureaucratic script that sends an innocent man to go hang out with gang members from Trinidad Agua in El Salvador.

00:04:57.000 Quote, Now, on the face of that, that's really bad, right?

00:05:11.000 I mean, that's a bad story.

00:05:12.000 If they just took a random guy who had protected status from El Salvador, and then he was taken and thrown into a prison in El Salvador, and he was just like an innocent guy, that's a really bad story, obviously.

00:05:26.000 That'd be a very big screw-up.

00:05:27.000 And if the administration is saying they can't do anything to fix it, that's an even bigger screw-up.

00:05:30.000 According to The Atlantic, the case appears to be the first time the Trump administration has admitted to errors when it sent three plainloads of Salvadoran and Venezuelan deportees to El Salvador's Grim Terrorism Confinement Center on March 15th.

00:05:41.000 Attorneys for several Venezuelan deportees have said the Trump administration falsely labeled their clients gang members because of their tattoos.

00:05:46.000 Trump officials have disputed those claims.

00:05:48.000 But in Monday's court filings, attorneys for the government admitted the Salvadoran man, Quilmar Abrego Garcia, was deported accidentally.

00:05:55.000 Although ICE was aware of his protection from removal to El Salvador, Abrego Garcia was removed to El Salvador because of an administrative error, the government told the court.

00:06:02.000 Trump's lawyers said the court has no ability to bring him back now that Abrego Garcia is in Salvadoran custody.

00:06:08.000 The lawyer for Abrego Garcia is asking for the court to order the Trump administration to ask for Abrego Garcia's return.

00:06:15.000 Trump administration attorneys told the court to dismiss the request on multiple grounds, including that Trump's supremacy in foreign affairs outweighs the interests of Abrego Garcia and his family.

00:06:24.000 So the lawyer says, If this is true, the immigration laws are meaningless.

00:06:27.000 All of them.

00:06:27.000 The government can deport whoever they want, wherever they want, whenever they want.

00:06:30.000 No court can do anything once it's done.

00:06:32.000 So, here's the part where the Atlantic gets itself into trouble.

00:06:35.000 So, so far, bad story for the administration.

00:06:37.000 They took a man who shouldn't have been deported, and they deported him, and the Trump administration admits he shouldn't have been deported.

00:06:43.000 Right? That's bad.

00:06:45.000 The Atlantic says, Abrego Garcia is married to a U.S. citizen, has a five-year-old disabled child who is also a U.S. citizen, has no criminal record, according to his attorney, The Trump administration does not claim that he has a criminal record, but called him a danger to the community and an active member of MS-13, the Salvadoran gang that Trump has declared a foreign terrorist organization.

00:07:02.000 The lawyer for this guy says the charges are false, and the gang label stems from a 2019 incident when Abrego Garcia and three other men were detained in a Home Depot parking lot by a police detective in Prince George's County, Maryland.

00:07:12.000 During questioning, one of the men told officers Abrego Garcia was a gang member, but the man offered no proof, and police said they didn't believe him.

00:07:18.000 According to filings, police did not identify him as a gang member.

00:07:23.000 However, here is the thing.

00:07:25.000 Okay, this is the part where the Atlantic screws it up.

00:07:27.000 This is what makes this story, at least partially, fake news.

00:07:31.000 An immigration judge, this is John Hassan.

00:07:34.000 He's a good reporter.

00:07:35.000 An immigration judge found that Garcia was an MS-13 member, a flight risk, and a threat to the community six years ago.

00:07:42.000 An immigration judge found that.

00:07:44.000 And that is not included in the story.

00:07:47.000 Instead, you get the story from this guy's lawyer that says he was just an innocent person who was wrapped up in a bunch of Bad testimony from people with whom he was hanging out in a Home Depot parking lot.

00:07:57.000 But according to the actual legal filings, Abrego Garcia remained in ICE custody because the immigration judge with the Executive Office for Immigration Review denied Abrego Garcia bond at a hearing on April 24th, 2019, setting danger to the community because the evidence showed he's a verified member of Mara Salvatrucha, which is MS-13.

00:08:16.000 The IJ also determined that he was a flight risk.

00:08:19.000 Okay, now, again, there was an administrative error here.

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00:10:25.000 So what exactly was the administrative error?

00:10:27.000 According to the filings on March 12th, 2025, ICE Homeland Security investigations arrested Abrego Garcia due to his prominent role in MS-13.

00:10:35.000 Over the next two days, Abrego Garcia was transferred to the staging area for removal flights.

00:10:39.000 The operation that led to Abrego Garcia's removal to El Salvador was designed to include only individuals with no impediments to removal.

00:10:45.000 ICE was aware of a grant of withholding of removal at the time of Abrego Garcia's removal from the United States.

00:10:51.000 Reference was made to the status On internal forms.

00:10:54.000 Originally, he was not on the initial manifest of the Title VIII flight.

00:10:56.000 So what happened is, an immigration judge had labeled this guy, years ago, a flight risk and a member of MS-13.

00:11:02.000 And then, despite that, there was an order that was a withholdal of removal that was put on him because of his credible fear, apparently, that he was going to be harmed by people back in his home country.

00:11:15.000 So that was the screw-up.

00:11:16.000 He was an alternate.

00:11:17.000 He was on the list as an alternate.

00:11:19.000 Like, you can't find the people who are primaries, find the people who are alternate, And then go through the procedure and remove them.

00:11:24.000 As others were removed from the flight for various reasons, he moved up the list and was assigned to the flight.

00:11:28.000 The manifest did not indicate that Abrego Garcia should not be removed.

00:11:32.000 Through administrative error, according to the filings, Abrego Garcia was removed from the United States to El Salvador.

00:11:36.000 This was an oversight.

00:11:38.000 The removal was carried out in good faith based on the existence of a final order of removal and Abrego Garcia's purported membership in MS-13.

00:11:46.000 So, again, this is the part that is the screw-up from the Atlantic.

00:11:51.000 How exactly is it that The Atlantic fails to mention that an immigration judge literally found that there was credible evidence that he was MS-13, which changes the entire nature of the story.

00:12:03.000 It turns this from a horrifyingly terrible story in which an innocent person with no connections to any form of criminal activity and a five-year-old son with disabilities and an American wife is removed for no good reason, to a story where a credibly accused and legally found MS-13 gang member, according to this immigration judge, is removed by accident despite a withholding of removal order.

00:12:27.000 In other words, it's a bureaucratic screw-up, and the guy shouldn't have been removed, but it is not a human tragedy if somebody who is involved in MS-13 ends up being removed from the country.

00:12:37.000 It's this sort of desperate hunger for a story to use as a baton against the Trump administration that leads so many members of the news media, the mainstream legacy media, To play up the headline.

00:12:51.000 Again, the headline from the Atlantic in all of this was not man found to be credibly accused MS-13 member removed by accident.

00:13:00.000 It was an administrative error sends a Maryland father to a Salvadoran prison.

00:13:04.000 Which makes it sound like he's like natural born citizen in Maryland, just a good old dad coaching ball at the local park.

00:13:13.000 And then suddenly ice descends upon him and sends him to El Salvador.

00:13:20.000 So, the media keep beclowning themselves.

00:13:23.000 Vice President J.D. Vance responded to this and correctly was dunking on the story.

00:13:29.000 So he said, Kyle Cheney, a legal affairs reporter, is apparently unable or unwilling to look at the facts here.

00:13:35.000 In 2019, an immigration judge under the Biden administration determined the deported man was in fact a member of the MS-13 gang.

00:13:40.000 He also apparently had multiple traffic violations for which he failed to appear in court.

00:13:44.000 A real winner.

00:13:44.000 It is telling the entire American media is going to run a propaganda operation today, making you think an innocent father of three was apprehended by a gulag.

00:13:51.000 Here are the relevant facts.

00:13:52.000 This man is an illegal immigrant with no right to be in our country. 1.00

00:13:54.000 An immigration judge during the Biden administration determined he was a member of the MS-13 gang.

00:14:00.000 Because he is not a citizen, he does not get a full jury trial by peers.

00:14:03.000 In other words, whatever due process he was entitled to, he received.

00:14:07.000 So, again, I think that two things can be true at once.

00:14:12.000 Number one, They really, really need to, inside the Trump administration, be careful about the things they are doing because the legacy media are on the hunt for screw-ups.

00:14:22.000 And second of all, the legacy media being on the hunt for screw-ups means they're going to ignore deeply relevant details that change the entire nature of stories in pursuit of the Trump administration.

00:14:33.000 Now, meanwhile, on the immigration front, a judge has now blocked President Trump from ending deportation protections for Venezuelans.

00:14:41.000 So the Department of Homeland Security ... was going to allow temporary protected status to expire on April 7th for approximately 350,000 Venezuelans.

00:14:49.000 The suit was filed in the U.S. District Court in the Northern District of California, and it centers on Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem's decision to rescind temporary protected status for Venezuelans shortly after being confirmed.

00:15:01.000 The Biden administration cited Venezuela's extreme poverty and economic and political crises under Maduro's autocratic rule in extending the protection.

00:15:08.000 Noam said that the conditions in Venezuela no longer met the criteria for its citizens to qualify for temporary protected status.

00:15:14.000 The district court judge suggested that this was unlawful and quote-unquote smacks of racism.

00:15:21.000 He said that her rationale for ending protections for people from the South American country is entirely lacking in evidentiary support.

00:15:28.000 But here is what Bill Malugan, reporter for Fox News, points out.

00:15:32.000 Temporary protected status is a status that is established by the executive branch of government.

00:15:38.000 It is not, in fact, established by the judiciary.

00:15:42.000 U.S. law says this is not subject to judicial review.

00:15:45.000 The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal upheld that in the first term.

00:15:48.000 Quote, there is no judicial review of any determination of the DHS Secretary with respect to the designation or termination or extension of a designation of a foreign state under this subsection.

00:15:57.000 In fact, there's a Ninth Circuit Court decision from the prior Trump administration that sided with the Trump administration when he was seeking to terminate temporary protected status for Haiti, Sudan, Nicaragua, And El Salvador.

00:16:09.000 So these judges are stepping into arenas where they actually do not have any authority in an attempt to resist Trump.

00:16:17.000 This is a big lose for them, by the way.

00:16:19.000 It turns out that Americans are very much in favor of removing illegal immigrants from the country, particularly illegal immigrants who are here and committing acts of criminality and associated with gangs. 0.92

00:16:33.000 So Democrats can overstep here as well.

00:16:36.000 Now, one of the big questions on the Democratic side of the aisle, of course, is who exactly is going to be at the head of the party?

00:16:41.000 And believe it or not, I believe that Hillary Clinton is trying to throw her hat into the ring. 0.98

00:16:45.000 How do I know?

00:16:45.000 Well, Hillary Clinton only emerges from the woodwork every so often to write an op-ed for the New York Times if she's got something else on her mind.

00:16:52.000 She has a piece in the New York Times today titled, How Much Dumber Will This Get? 0.97

00:16:55.000 Now, remember, Hillary Clinton is 77 years old.

00:16:58.000 That means that in three years, when theoretically she would be running for the presidency again, she'd be 80. That is no longer a barrier to entry.

00:17:06.000 President Trump is currently 78 years old.

00:17:09.000 He's a year older than Hillary Clinton.

00:17:11.000 77 is like a spring chicken by our modern standards, and the Democratic bench is pretty empty.

00:17:17.000 Pretty empty.

00:17:19.000 So Hillary Clinton is emerging hypocritically to now talk about Signalgate. 0.99

00:17:23.000 She says, it's not the hypocrisy that bothers me, it's the stupidity.

00:17:26.000 We're all shocked that President Trump and his team don't actually care about protecting classified information or federal record retention laws, but we knew that already.

00:17:32.000 What's much worse is that the top Trump administration officials put our troops in jeopardy by sharing military plans on a commercial messaging app and unwittingly invited a journalist into chat.

00:17:40.000 That's dangerous and it's just dumb.

00:17:42.000 And I gotta say, it is amazing that the New York Times went to Hillary Clinton, of all humans, to jab her about SignalGate.

00:17:47.000 Because this sword cuts both ways.

00:17:49.000 If she's saying Republicans are hypocrites for not caring about SignalGate by caring about her classified documents mishandling, she is a hypocrite for saying that she cares about SignalGate, but she does not care about her own classified documents mishandling.

00:18:03.000 Nowhere in this piece does she actually address the fact that she had a separate hard drive that she set up in her bathroom that contained all sorts of classified information.

00:18:14.000 But it's pretty clear here that she actually is trying to set up, believe it or not, for another presidential run.

00:18:19.000 Quote, in a dangerous and complex world, it's not enough to be strong.

00:18:22.000 You must also be smart.

00:18:23.000 As Secretary of State during the Obama administration, I argued for smart power, integrating the hard power of our military with the soft power of our diplomacy, development assistance, economic might, and cultural influence.

00:18:33.000 None of those tools can do the job alone.

00:18:34.000 Together, they make America a superpower.

00:18:36.000 The Trump approach is dumb power.

00:18:38.000 Okay, these are the kinds of words of a person who's trying to throw her hat into the ring as a candidate.

00:18:45.000 Fascinating to see how empty the cupboard is at Democratic headquarters that they have to pull Hillary Clinton out. 1.00

00:18:51.000 from behind the unused cinnamon.

00:18:54.000 Pretty impressive.

00:18:55.000 Now listen, not all hope is dead for Democrats today.

00:18:57.000 There are a couple of big elections nationwide.

00:19:00.000 One of them is happening in the Florida 6th Congressional District.

00:19:02.000 That is Mike Waltz's old district, Rhonda Sanchez's old district.

00:19:05.000 President Trump won that district by 30 points in the last election cycle.

00:19:09.000 Right now, Senator from Florida, Randy Fine, is locked in a very competitive battle with a Democrat named Josh Weil, mainly because Democrats have poured something like 10 million dollars into that district, hoping to steal it.

00:19:21.000 While Republicans are asleep.

00:19:22.000 There's no way that an R plus 30 district should go Democrat.

00:19:25.000 Yesterday, I actually participated in a teller rally for Senator Fein along with Representative Byron Donalds to get out the vote for Senator Fein.

00:19:32.000 It's very important that Republicans win that race and win it fairly handily.

00:19:36.000 They need to win it because if they lose that seat, then basically Mike Johnson's margin of error in the House shrinks to zero because he always has to deal with the constant no vote of Thomas Massie, among others.

00:19:47.000 But also, Republicans need to win fairly handily there.

00:19:50.000 Just to show Democrats that they don't actually have a chance of sneaking back in through the window.

00:19:55.000 That is one big race that is happening today. 0.98

00:19:57.000 The other big race that is happening today is the state Supreme Court in Wisconsin. 0.57

00:20:01.000 It does have nationwide consequences, as the Daily Wire points out.

00:20:04.000 Democrats are expected to challenge Wisconsin's current congressional maps if Crawford wins.

00:20:09.000 Judge Susan Crawford is the very left-wing judge who's being put up for the Supreme Court. 1.00

00:20:13.000 The conservative candidate is Brad Schimel.

00:20:16.000 The outcome could determine how the court rules on abortion, voter ID laws, and union reforms As well.

00:20:21.000 Schimel, who's the former Republican AG of Wisconsin, said in a recent interview he's running to save the court from activist judges like Crawford, saying the court has turned into the most dangerous body in state government under its current 4-3 liberal majority.

00:20:33.000 The woman who is running against him, Crawford, is extraordinarily far to the left on pretty much every issue it is possible to be to the left. 0.99

00:20:41.000 90 million dollars has been poured into this race.

00:20:44.000 That's how important it is because a redistricting in Wisconsin Could shift the balance of power in the United States Congress.

00:20:50.000 If a left-wing Supreme Court in Wisconsin redraws the congressional boundaries, then Democrats could pick up a seat or two and that would be enough to shift the balance of power in the Congress of the United States. 0.67

00:21:01.000 Among Crawford's other rather infamous rulings were one spot highlighting a case where she sentenced a man convicted of sexually assaulting two young girls in a pool to four years in prison, which is well below what prosecutors had requested.

00:21:14.000 Crawford said she doesn't regret the decision, asserting that she followed the law at the time.

00:21:17.000 Elon Musk, of course, is putting heavy resources into this particular race.

00:21:21.000 So it'll be fascinating to see how all of that turns out.

00:21:23.000 Speaking of Elon Musk, the attacks continue on people who are driving Teslas, which is insane to me.

00:21:30.000 It only took a little bit of political magic for Democrats to turn full scale against electric vehicles, apparently.

00:21:35.000 The number one electric vehicle company on planet Earth is now their enemy because Elon Musk happens to be an ally of President Trump, who's seeking to cut waste, fraud, and abuse.

00:21:42.000 Inside the government.

00:21:43.000 Here is some footage of protesters outside a Tesla factory or Tesla dealership, and they're doing their best to, you know, fight the man.

00:21:52.000 Oh man, this is the best they can do.

00:21:55.000 For folks who can't see, they're doing coordinated line dancing, holding signs that show Tesla with a swastika.

00:22:02.000 Meanwhile, a man accused of firebombing a Tesla dealership in Colorado is now facing federal charges, according to AG Pambandi.

00:22:08.000 Cooper Joe Frederick, 24, was arrested in Plano, Texas on suspicion of attacking a Tesla dealership on March 7th in Loveland, Colorado.

00:22:15.000 Bondi said, you can run, but you can't hide.

00:22:16.000 Justice is coming.

00:22:17.000 This is, in fact, terrorism, by the way.

00:22:19.000 When you attack people or property with the intent of effectuating political change, that is an act of terrorism, definitionally.

00:22:25.000 So good for Pam Bondi for doing the thing. 1.00

00:22:27.000 And if you want it to stop, you will have to do the thing, because I think that we are now arriving in an age of political terrorism and chaos if it does not stop and stop right quick.

00:22:35.000 Everything ranging from property damage to full-on shootings in the streets, cheered on by members of the left wing, are now on the table.

00:22:44.000 Luigi Mangione is a hero to a bunch of people on the left, including people like comedian Bill Burr.

00:22:49.000 Speaking of which, I have to say that the Comedians Club is getting less and less interesting and funny.

00:22:54.000 Amber Ruffin is a comedian, an alleged comedian, who's supposed to do her bit at the White House Correspondents Dinner, and she was canceled because she is so overtly annoyingly Anti-Trump. 1.00

00:23:05.000 And so she was explaining what her plans were.

00:23:09.000 Like, I'm not 100% interested in being like, ha, you're here, look at your stupid head, you're burned.

00:23:14.000 I care, like, you're kind of a bunch of murderers.

00:23:19.000 I mean, I think it just, they got their feelings hurt.

00:23:22.000 And they want that false equivalency that the media does.

00:23:25.000 They want that.

00:23:26.000 It feels great.

00:23:27.000 It makes them feel like human beings.

00:23:29.000 But they shouldn't get to feel that way because they're not.

00:23:32.000 That's solid stuff right there.

00:23:34.000 You're a bunch of murderers.

00:23:36.000 Slow clap for these geniuses.

00:23:38.000 Really smart stuff right there.

00:23:40.000 Well, that lady is not very funny at all, but I'll tell you something that is also not funny, and that is your mattress, the one you're sleeping on.

00:23:47.000 It stinks, right?

00:23:48.000 You just went to a big box store and you picked it up, didn't you?

00:23:50.000 Didn't you?

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00:23:54.000 You know that feeling where you wake up and your back is already complaining?

00:23:56.000 Well, before I got my Helix Mattress, that was me quite often.

00:23:59.000 Don't get me started on how my old mattress turned into a heat trap at night.

00:24:02.000 Since I switched up to Helix, I wake up feeling ready to take on the busiest days and the craziest headlines.

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00:24:42.000 Also, you know, I'm traveling, I'm on the road, there's a lot going on, the news is rough, and that means that I still need to somehow keep healthy.

00:24:49.000 But when I was younger, I used to think I could just power through on willpower and caffeine.

00:24:53.000 I learned pretty quickly, peak performance requires peak nutrition, and that means eating enough veggies.

00:24:57.000 That's why I'm so thankful to have Balance of Nature, which fits right into even the busiest of days.

00:25:01.000 Imagine trying to eat 31 different fruits and veggies every day.

00:25:03.000 That sounds miserable and time-consuming.

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00:25:11.000 Balance of Nature takes fruits and veggies, they freeze-dry them, they turn them into a powder, and then they put them into a capsule.

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00:25:19.000 They are kosher, so I toss it right in the protein smoothie, and that is why I'm just ripped like a Greek god. 0.71

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00:25:49.000 Meanwhile, President Trump is continuing to troll.

00:25:53.000 So over the last 72 hours or so, he continues to revive the idea that he is going to run for president again in 2028.

00:25:59.000 He's not allowed to run for president in 2028.

00:26:01.000 The 22nd Amendment says you can only serve two terms.

00:26:04.000 There are some people who are trying to put forth the rather strained constitutional interpretation that theoretically he could run as vice president of the United States because the rule in the Constitution is that the qualifications for the presidency of the United States are the same qualifications as for the vice presidency of the United States.

00:26:20.000 One interpretation means, OK, well, he's no longer qualified to be president of the United States since he's done it twice.

00:26:25.000 The other interpretation means that the Constitution just meant that you have to be a natural born citizen and 35 years of age.

00:26:32.000 OK, it's not happening, but he's still trolling.

00:26:35.000 Here's President Trump in the If you were allowed For some reason to run for a third term.

00:26:42.000 Is there a thought that the Democrats could try to run Barack Obama against you?

00:26:48.000 I'd love that.

00:26:48.000 For his third term.

00:26:49.000 I'd love that.

00:26:50.000 That would be a good one.

00:26:51.000 I'd like that.

00:26:53.000 Well, you know, Caroline Leavitt, whose job it is to defend what the president says, she was out there defending President Trump over his comments regarding a possible third term. 0.93

00:27:01.000 Again, this is just trollery.

00:27:02.000 It ain't going to happen.

00:27:04.000 And people, I think, understand that it is trollery.

00:27:07.000 But one of the funnier aspects of the Trump administration, this is true during Trump 1 and Trump 2, is Trump would do something that was clearly a troll, and then members of his administration would walk out there and basically have to defend the troll as though it's totally serious.

00:27:18.000 So here we go.

00:27:20.000 It's funny to me that journalists ask the president this question, he gives an honest and candid answer, and then they spiral about his answer.

00:27:28.000 He was asked this, and you heard him, and he's right.

00:27:31.000 People love the job this president is doing, and as he said, we are focused on this term.

00:27:36.000 We have four more years to go, and look at what the president has done.

00:27:40.000 Okay, meanwhile, Democrats are in fact spiraling.

00:27:43.000 Anna Navarro, again one of the brilliant women at The View, She says we must take this seriously.

00:27:48.000 It is deeply important.

00:27:49.000 We must stop this tyranny.

00:27:52.000 Look, you know, no matter how insane, stupid, harebrained and lawless, I think something...

00:28:01.000 He says might be I have learned the lesson of taking him seriously Yes, but what was interesting is this was a hot topic for all of us and none of us picked it this morning Because we're all on to him.

00:28:12.000 He is the distractor-in-chief So he doesn't want us to keep talking about signal gate which is a real threat to national security and every day more details are revealed that Show us how incompetent and reckless his national security team is Again, if they want to spiral on this, let them spiral, man.

00:28:35.000 Because, you know, honestly, if they want to hone in on President Trump's trolling, good luck to them.

00:28:40.000 They're just following like a cat with a laser pointer every aim that President Trump is putting on the wall.

00:28:46.000 The reality is, if Democrats are smart, what they should be doing is they should be focusing in on what is likely to happen tomorrow.

00:28:52.000 Liberation Day, according to the President of the United States, but really giant tariff day.

00:28:57.000 So President Trump says that he has settled on a trade plan But he has not revealed it yet, which of course is like the worst way to do this sort of policy.

00:29:04.000 It really is a bad way to do this policy because markets are looking for stability.

00:29:08.000 Markets are looking for predictability.

00:29:11.000 If you are worried that the president is going to dump a bunch of giant tariffs on you tomorrow, how exactly do you plan for that?

00:29:17.000 It sort of paralyzed the markets.

00:29:19.000 According to the Wall Street Journal, President Trump said he had settled on a plan for his latest batch of tariffs expected this week, but didn't reveal what he had decided after his economic team struggled to coalesce around a U.S. trade strategy.

00:29:28.000 Quote, I've settled it.

00:29:29.000 Yeah, Trump said in the Oval Office on Monday.

00:29:32.000 Trump's team has pitched him on several ideas of how to tariff other countries, including a 20% global tariff on virtually all imports.

00:29:39.000 Throughout Monday, some of his aides were under the impression he hadn't committed to a particular path.

00:29:43.000 The people's stressed conversations remain fluid.

00:29:45.000 Trump's comments that he had decided on an approach caught some White House advisers off guard.

00:29:50.000 President Trump both wants to raise revenue with tariffs and use them as leverage to get other nations to lower their own duties or make other policy changes.

00:29:56.000 But if tariffs are subject to negotiation and could be lowered over time, that would raise doubts about how much revenue could ultimately be expected from their imposition.

00:30:04.000 So it is totally unclear what President Trump is going to do today.

00:30:06.000 The markets seem kind of sanguine about this.

00:30:09.000 They seem as though they think that President Trump is not going to do serious tariffs tomorrow, that President Trump is basically signaling that he's going to do big tariffs, but it's going to be smaller than anticipated.

00:30:21.000 I certainly hope that that is the case because I think that this is Truly not good economic policy.

00:30:27.000 If President Trump goes heavy, however, the markets are going to respond in very negative ways.

00:30:32.000 According to Axios, the reality of multinational American businesses is that if these tariffs are suddenly applied, it is going to clock nearly everyone.

00:30:44.000 The tariffs contrast with the 2018-2019 period in Trump's previous term, when tariffs were more targeted to specific items from specific countries.

00:30:51.000 All signs that these quote-unquote reciprocal tariffs meant to penalize other nations seen as dealing unfairly will be stacked on top of other tariffs like those ostensibly meant to penalize Mexico, Canada, and China.

00:31:01.000 Trump told reporters on Sunday you'd start with all countries.

00:31:05.000 White House Trade Advisor Peter Navarro, of course, said, as we played on the show yesterday, new tariffs would raise $600 billion a year for the federal government.

00:31:11.000 That, by the way, would be almost a 10x increase in terms of tariff revenue, which was $77 billion.

00:31:18.000 As Axios points out, Navarro's comments imply $6 trillion in increased tariff revenue over the next decade.

00:31:25.000 So these are big tariffs, if he indeed does them.

00:31:27.000 So we'll see.

00:31:28.000 The market, again, seems to be banking on the idea that Trump is not going to go full Monty here.

00:31:33.000 We're going to find out in very short order whether that is true or not.

00:31:37.000 Alrighty, now, our final episode in the case for Derek Chauvin, our five-part series on why the Trump administration should issue a federal pardon for Derek Chauvin.

00:31:46.000 After that, we'll be joined by the famous author, Malcolm Gladwell, to talk about his perspective.

00:31:50.000 He disagrees.

00:31:51.000 The End The death of George Floyd sparked what would become the most destructive period of civil unrest in modern American history.

00:32:02.000 Protests erupted in all 50 states, not just in major urban centers, but in small towns across rural America.

00:32:07.000 By early June 2020, over 200 cities had imposed curfews.

00:32:11.000 More than 30 states and Washington, D.C. activated over 96,000 National Guard.

00:32:17.000 and 3rd Infantry Regiment Service members.

00:32:19.000 This represented one of the largest military operations outside of war in American history.

00:32:24.000 While the mainstream media continued to claim that these were mostly peaceful protests, the reality on the ground was very different.

00:32:30.000 By the end of June 2020, at least 14,000 people had been arrested.

00:32:33.000 At least 19 people died in relation to the riots.

00:32:36.000 Property damage from arson, vandalism, and looting between May 26th and June 8th caused approximately $1 to $2 billion in insured damages nationally, the highest recorded damage from civil disorder in U.S. history, surpassing even the 1992 L.A. riots.

00:32:49.000 Minneapolis itself saw catastrophic destruction.

00:32:52.000 There were two deaths, 604 arrests, an estimated $550 million in property damage to 1,500 properties.

00:32:58.000 The city's third police precinct was overrun and burned to the ground.

00:33:01.000 Businesses that had survived for generations were destroyed overnight.

00:33:05.000 All of this destruction occurred before any semblance of due process was afforded to Derek Chauvin.

00:33:09.000 In Seattle, protesters established what they called the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, or CHAZ, later renamed to CHOP, the Capitol Hill Occupied Protest.

00:33:18.000 For weeks, six blocks of a major American city were essentially surrendered to anarchists, antifa, and radical activists.

00:33:23.000 Police were forbidden from entering.

00:33:25.000 Businesses were held hostage.

00:33:26.000 When President Trump urged Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan to take back her city, she glibly referred to the occupation as a summer of love.

00:33:33.000 It wasn't until multiple shootings occurred within the zone that city officials finally acted to dismantle it.

00:33:37.000 As American cities burned, Democratic politicians saw an opportunity for political gain.

00:33:42.000 On June 8, 2020, Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other Democratic lawmakers draped themselves in kente cloth, a traditional Ghanaian textile, and knelt in the Capitol's Emancipation Hall for a carefully choreographed photo op.

00:33:53.000 The display was performed of virtue signaling at its most egregious.

00:33:56.000 As Jade Bentil, a Ghanaian-Nigerian researcher at Oxford University noted, quote, The kente cloth stunt was widely mocked across the political spectrum, with one screenwriter tweeting, quote, Following their theatrical display, Democrats then introduced the Justice in Policing Act, a bill that would have imposed federal mandates on local police departments, restricted qualified immunity, and fundamentally altered policing in America.

00:34:26.000 The legislation ultimately failed, but it set the stage for a broader push to a movement that would have catastrophic consequences for public safety in cities across America.

00:34:34.000 And who benefited from all this chaos?

00:34:36.000 Well, certainly not the Black communities these riots supposedly aim to help. 0.67

00:34:39.000 No, the real beneficiary was Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, which rigged in a staggering $90 million. 0.86

00:34:46.000 And what did they do with this windfall?

00:34:47.000 According to their own tax filings, only 33% went to actual charitable organizations.

00:34:51.000 Meanwhile, BLM co-founder Patrisse Cullors, a self-described trained Marxist, somehow discovered her capitalist spirit and paid her graffiti artist brother $840,000 for security services.

00:35:02.000 She paid another $970,000 to a company owned by her child's father for creative services, and $2.1 million to a consulting firm owned by another board member.

00:35:11.000 And let's not forget the $6 million LA mansion they purchased.

00:35:14.000 The intellectual underpinnings of this movement were equally fraudulent.

00:35:17.000 ACAB, All Cops Are Bastards, became the rallying cry of college students who would call 911 if their iPhone went missing.

00:35:23.000 Then came Defund the Police, possibly the worst political slogan in American history.

00:35:27.000 When normal people heard defund, they thought it meant actually removing funding from police departments.

00:35:31.000 But then, when poll numbers cratered, suddenly progressives insisted it actually meant fund mental health services instead.

00:35:36.000 The cities that did defund their police departments, like Minneapolis, Portland, and Seattle, saw crime rates skyrocket.

00:35:42.000 And have since quietly restored or even increased police budgets.

00:35:44.000 It turns out that communities, especially minority communities, actually want more police presence, not less.

00:35:49.000 This political transformation extended far beyond local governance and beyond Washington, D.C. Professional sports leagues ditched their cultural role as an American unifier in favor of overt progressive activism.

00:35:59.000 When the NBA restarted its season in July 2020, every single player knelt during the national anthem.

00:36:04.000 They wore Black Lives Matter shirts and jerseys with messages like, equality, I am a man, and ally.

00:36:09.000 NBA Commissioner Adam Silver announced he would not enforce the league's long-standing rule requiring players to stand during the anthem.

00:36:15.000 The league painted Black Lives Matter on its courts in enormous lettering.

00:36:19.000 Post-game interviews shifted from discussions of basketball to political commentary on systemic racism.

00:36:24.000 The NFL, still grappling with the Colin Kaepernick controversy from 2016, began to fully embrace BLM messaging.

00:36:29.000 End zones were painted with social justice slogans.

00:36:32.000 Players were encouraged to wear the names of individuals killed by police on their helmets.

00:36:35.000 Lift Every Voice and Sing, often called the Black National Anthem, was performed before games, alongside the Star-Spangled Banner.

00:36:41.000 These protests represented a complete reversal of public opinion in just two years.

00:36:45.000 In 2018, polling showed that 54% of Americans thought it was inappropriate for athletes to kneel during the National Anthem.

00:36:51.000 By September 2020, that position had now flipped entirely, with 56% of Americans saying they supported protests at sports games, with only 42% opposing them.

00:36:59.000 The summer of 2020 witnessed the most rapid cultural transformation in modern American history.

00:37:03.000 Virtually overnight, Major corporations, educational institutions, and government agencies enthusiastically embraced diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives.

00:37:11.000 Amazon, Netflix, and other tech giants pledged billions of dollars to racial justice causes.

00:37:16.000 Universities issued statements condemning systemic racism and implemented mandatory anti-racism training for students, faculty, and employees.

00:37:24.000 School boards across the country revised curricula to incorporate elements of critical race theory and anti-racist pedagogy.

00:37:30.000 The standards of merit and achievement that long guided American institutions were suddenly deemed expressions of white supremacy.

00:37:36.000 Standardized testing for elite schools was eliminated in the name of equity.

00:37:40.000 Corporate hiring and promotion decisions became increasingly based on intersectionality rather than qualifications or competence.

00:37:46.000 This transformation was not limited to the private sector.

00:37:48.000 Federal agencies under the Biden administration issued executive orders mandating DEI training and establishing equity offices.

00:37:54.000 The military, once a meritocratic institution focused solely on national defense, diverted resources to diversity initiatives and unconscious by his training.

00:38:02.000 The speed and comprehensiveness of this revolution was unprecedented.

00:38:05.000 Dissent was not merely discouraged, but actively punished.

00:38:08.000 Employees who questioned DEI policies found themselves isolated, demoted, or even terminated.

00:38:13.000 Academics who raised concerns about the empirical bases for these sweeping changes faced calls for removal or resignation.

00:38:19.000 Social media platforms and advertisers egregiously censored anyone who challenged the prevailing narrative.

00:38:24.000 The Derek Chauvin case is the origin story for this sweeping cultural revolution.

00:38:28.000 George Floyd's murder is the founding myth which justified a complete reorganization of American society.

00:38:34.000 Any criticism of BLM, any defense of due process for Chauvin, any hint of support for law enforcement was deemed evidence of racism and grounds for personal and professional cancellation.

00:38:42.000 According to the responses to this series, it perhaps still is.

00:38:46.000 While American society underwent this radical transformation, Derek Chauvin faced his own personal hell.

00:38:50.000 After his conviction in state court on charges of second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder, and second-degree manslaughter, he was sentenced to 22.5 years in prison.

00:38:59.000 He subsequently pled guilty to federal civil rights charges and received a 21-year federal sentence to run concurrently with his state sentence.

00:39:05.000 Chauvin specifically requested to serve his time in federal prison, even though it meant he would serve a longer sentence.

00:39:10.000 As a former police officer convicted of killing a Black man, Chauvin believed he faced extraordinary danger in state prison.

00:39:15.000 But in federal custody, Chauvin's safety still could not be guaranteed.

00:39:18.000 On November 24th, 2023, the day after Thanksgiving, specifically chosen for its symbolism as Black Friday, Chauvin was stabbed 22 times by fellow inmate John Terzak at the Federal Correctional Institution in Tucson, Arizona.

00:39:31.000 Terzak, a former gang member serving a 30-year sentence, later told investigators he had targeted Chauvin for, quote, killing Floyd.

00:39:37.000 According to court documents, Terzak told correctional officers he would have succeeded in killing Chauvin had guards not responded so quickly.

00:39:43.000 The attack occurred in the prison's law library, where Chauvin was apparently left without adequate protection, despite his high-profile status and the obvious target on his back.

00:39:51.000 After that stabbing, Chauvin was hospitalized and later transferred to the Federal Transfer Center in Oklahoma, and then to the Federal Correctional Institution in Big Spring, Texas, a low-security prison.

00:40:00.000 His family expressed ongoing concerns about his safety, noting it remains a mystery how the perpetrator was able to obtain and possess dangerous materials that were able to be formed into an improvised knife, and how a guard was unable to reach and apprehend the perpetrator until Derek had been stabbed 22 times.

00:40:14.000 Throughout his incarceration, Chauvin has continued to fight his conviction through the appellate courts.

00:40:18.000 In November 2023, the Supreme Court rejected his appeal of the state conviction without comment or a recorded vote.

00:40:23.000 He should have, however, through the appellate process, been granted a new trial due to the prejudice of pretrial media attention, jury intimidation, and the trial court's failure to change venue, all of which violated Chauvin's constitutional right to due process and a fair trial.

00:40:35.000 Also in November 2023, Chauvin filed a motion asking the judge in his federal case to vacate his guilty plea.

00:40:41.000 This new motion cited theories from Kansas pathologist Dr. William Schatzel.

00:40:45.000 The heart of Chauvin's new legal strategy centers on a tumor found during Floyd's autopsy, believed to be a paraganglioma, which was deemed insignificant by Hennepin County Medical Examiner Dr. Andrew Baker.

00:40:55.000 But this assessment is now being challenged by a new medical theory.

00:40:58.000 Dr. Schatzel has proposed that Floyd may have died from a catecholamine crisis triggered by this rare tumor, potentially causing a rare condition called tachycebomyocarditis, or broken heart syndrome.

00:41:08.000 While extreme physical or emotional stress is thought to cause Takutsobu's myocarditis, Dr. Schatzel's theory is that Floyd's tumor could have secreted excessive levels of catecholamines, which are hormones or neurotransmitters, therefore severely impacting Floyd's cardiovascular system.

00:41:22.000 In layman's terms, this means Floyd's death could have been caused by a perfect storm of zone-serious medical conditions completely independent of Chauvin's actions.

00:41:29.000 Medical literature supports the plausibility of this theory.

00:41:31.000 According to a 2021 study, a catecholamine crisis from such tumors carries a significant mortality rate of approximately 15%, and further research has documented that heart failure and heart attacks caused by paraganglioma-induced catecholamine crises are common causes of death in patients with these same conditions.

00:41:47.000 On December 16, 2024, U.S. District Court Judge Paul Magnuson granted a pivotal motion allowing Chauvin's defense team to analyze George Floyd's heart tissue and fluid samples from his autopsy.

00:41:58.000 In his ruling, Judge Magnuson acknowledged the gravity of this request.

00:42:01.000 He wrote, quote, But

00:42:31.000 Judge Magnuson wasn't having it.

00:42:32.000 On December 19th, he firmly rejected the government's attempt to block the examination, stating, quote, While pursuing these federal proceedings, Chauvin has also initiated state-level efforts to re-examine his case.

00:42:46.000 On November 23rd, 2024, Chauvin's newly hired attorney, Gregory Joseph, filed a 15-page petition for post-conviction relief in Minnesota State Court.

00:42:55.000 The petition makes several significant claims, including actual innocence, ineffective assistance of counsel, discovery violations, and related violations of due process and a fair trial under the United States Constitution.

00:43:05.000 It alleges that the full details of the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Report and Toxicology Report were not provided to Chauvin until July 2023, well after conviction and sentencing.

00:43:15.000 One of the central elements of this new petition involves the paraganglioma tumor.

00:43:19.000 The filing claims that at least one doctor contacted Chauvin's original attorney, the judge, Peter Cahill, and the state prosecutors during the trial to alert them about the potential significance of this tumor, But these communications were allegedly not disclosed to Chauvin until August 2023, over two years after his original sentencing.

00:43:35.000 Chauvin has stated that had he known about Dr. Schatzel's theory regarding paraganglioma and its potential role in Floyd's death, he would not have entered a guilty plea for the federal charges.

00:43:43.000 This claim forms a key component of his argument for ineffective assistance of counsel.

00:43:47.000 Chauvin's post-conviction legal efforts face significant challenges, not least his personal circumstances after being attacked in prison.

00:43:52.000 According to Chauvin, the stabbing attack, which took place in the prison's law library, resulted in the destruction of many of his legal documents.

00:43:58.000 Some due to blood contamination, others confiscated as evidence in the prosecution of his attacker.

00:44:03.000 Court filings by Chauvin's legal team allege that Chauvin has had no ability to aid in his own defense for more than seven months following the attack, with limited access to online resources and communication.

00:44:12.000 His legal situation is further complicated by the retirement of Judge Peter Cahill, who presided over his original state trial.

00:44:17.000 Chauvin's case is now being handled by Judge Paul Scoggin.

00:44:20.000 These legal maneuvers face long odds.

00:44:22.000 The system that convicted Chauvin has shown little interest in revisiting his case, despite the substantial questions about his guilt that we've explored throughout this series.

00:44:29.000 For abiding by his training and policing his community for 19 years, Chauvin has now been abandoned by the system he once served.

00:44:35.000 This brings us to the culmination of our series, the case for a presidential pardon for Derek Chauvin.

00:44:39.000 Such a pardon would not erase the state charges, as presidential pardon power only extends to federal offenses.

00:44:44.000 But it would free Chauvin from his federal sentence and allow him to spend less time incarcerated.

00:44:48.000 In summation, The case for pardon rests on several key pillars.

00:44:51.000 First, the medical evidence simply does not support the narrative that Chauvin murdered George Floyd.

00:44:56.000 As we detailed in episode three, the autopsy revealed no damage to Floyd's trachea or airway structures.

00:45:01.000 It found potentially lethal levels of fentanyl in his system alongside methamphetamine and documented severe heart disease with arteries that were 75 to 90% blocked.

00:45:09.000 Dr. Baker, the county medical examiner, acknowledged that if Floyd, quote, were found dead at home alone and no other apparent causes, this could be acceptable to call an overdose.

00:45:17.000 Add to this the ongoing investigation into Dr. Schatzel's tumor theory, and it becomes even clearer that a pardon is necessary.

00:45:23.000 Chauvin has maintained he would never have pled guilty to federal charges had he known about Schatzel's theory.

00:45:27.000 When combined with the documented heart disease, drug toxicity, and lack of airway trauma, Schatzel presents a compelling alternative explanation for Floyd's death that reasonable jurors should have been allowed to consider.

00:45:37.000 Second, Chauvin's state trial was fundamentally flawed.

00:45:39.000 As we discussed in episode four, the $27 million settlement announced during jury selection, the failure to change venue, the statements by politicians including President Biden prejudging the case, and the explicit threats of further violence if Chauvin was acquitted all made a fair trial impossible.

00:45:53.000 No jury could render an impartial verdict under such conditions.

00:45:57.000 A pardon would therefore stand as a powerful reminder of American due process and the integrity of our law.

00:46:01.000 It would signal that the mob justice and trial by media are not acceptable in a constitutional republic.

00:46:06.000 It would remind Americans that even the most hated defendant is innocent until proven guilty.

00:46:11.000 Third, Chauvin has already suffered disproportionately for his actions.

00:46:14.000 He's been demonized in the media as a racist, abandoned by his department, divorced by his wife, and nearly killed in prison.

00:46:19.000 The 22 stab wounds he received from a fellow inmate represent a form of extrajudicial punishment no defendant should have to endure regardless of the alleged crime.

00:46:26.000 Fourth, a pardon would begin to heal the immense damage done to law enforcement and public safety in the country.

00:46:30.000 Since the summer of 2020, police departments nationwide have faced a recruiting and retention crisis.

00:46:35.000 Officers are leaving the profession in record numbers, unwilling to risk becoming the next Derek Chauvin sacrifice to appease the mob, regardless of fact.

00:46:42.000 The resulting personnel shortages have contributed to skyrocketing crime rates in blue cities across America, with the poorest communities suffering the most.

00:46:49.000 Finally, the Derek Chauvin case was the inciting incident, the catalyst, the founding myth, upon which this entire destructive cultural revolution was built.

00:46:56.000 Think about it.

00:46:57.000 The summer of 2020 set the match to the DEI powder keg that exploded through every American institution.

00:47:02.000 Before George Floyd, we weren't putting pronouns in email signatures.

00:47:05.000 Before Chauvin's railroading, universities were not dismantling standardized testing as white supremacy. 0.61

00:47:10.000 Before the Minneapolis courtroom travesty, corporate America was not forcing employees to confess white privilege in mandatory struggle sessions.

00:47:17.000 President Trump has done remarkable work in his first months back in office, dismantling the entire DEI bureaucracy, banning critical race theory from federal training, ending the gender ideology madness in schools.

00:47:26.000 Matt Walsh has seen similar advancements with his record-breaking films, What is a Woman and Am I Racist?

00:47:31.000 The same can be said for a lot of the work we do at The Daily Wire.

00:47:34.000 But we cannot truly exercise this woke demon without addressing the fictional incident that inspired it all.

00:47:39.000 The Floyd narrative was the founding document for Woke America. 0.78

00:47:42.000 To fully restore the America we love, the America that judges people by the content of their character and their actions rather than the color of their skin, we must formally repudiate the narrative that George Floyd was brutally murdered by Derek Chauvin.

00:47:54.000 The truth matters.

00:47:55.000 The truth is that Derek Chauvin did not receive justice.

00:47:58.000 He was sacrificed by scared politicians and eager race hustlers to appease a social media frenzy and advance a progressive agenda.

00:48:04.000 His conviction was secured through intimidation and the threat of further violence, not through a fair and impartial assessment of evidence.

00:48:10.000 His current imprisonment represents a failure of our justice system and a triumph of mob rule.

00:48:13.000 I urge you to visit PardonDerek.com and sign our petition asking President Trump to grant Derek Chauvin a federal pardon.

00:48:19.000 We'll also put the website to donate to Derek Chauvin's legal defense fund in the description.

00:48:23.000 The power and power exists precisely for cases like this one, where the regular mechanisms of justice have failed, where political considerations have overridden the fair application of the law, and where mercy is warranted in the face of extraordinary circumstance.

00:48:34.000 Joining us online to discuss all this is Malcolm Gladwell.

00:48:37.000 Of course, you know him as the author of five New York Times bestsellers, including his great books, The Tipping Point and Blink.

00:48:42.000 He's also the host of the Revisionist History podcast, which reconsiders things both overlooked and misunderstood, as well as the Broken Record podcast as well.

00:48:50.000 Malcolm, thanks so much for joining the show.

00:48:51.000 Really appreciate it.

00:48:52.000 Thank you.

00:48:53.000 Thanks for having me on.

00:48:54.000 So, let's talk about the case that I'm making for the pardon of Derek Chauvin.

00:48:57.000 My understanding is that you oppose.

00:48:59.000 You've made pretty clear that you think that the case against Chauvin is solid and that the judgment was correct.

00:49:06.000 What do you make of the case?

00:49:08.000 Yeah, well, it's funny.

00:49:09.000 You did an in-depth analysis of the case, which I just listened to last night.

00:49:19.000 The same thing on my podcast.

00:49:21.000 Two episodes on the case.

00:49:24.000 You're right.

00:49:25.000 Reaching different conclusions.

00:49:27.000 Although I think, you know, there are lots of interesting issues that you raise.

00:49:33.000 It's a complicated case.

00:49:34.000 I think we could start there.

00:49:36.000 More complicated, I think, than people realize.

00:49:39.000 And complicated by the fact that, as you go into this in some detail on one of your In one of your episodes that Floyd at the time of his arrest is not a well man.

00:49:51.000 He's he's on fentanyl.

00:49:53.000 He's got his heart's lungs are full of fluidness.

00:49:57.000 He's got what is it not 75% blockage of his arteries to his heart.

00:50:01.000 So it's complicated and it's in difficult cases, you know that legal axiom like difficult cases make bad law.

00:50:08.000 We're in a difficult case here.

00:50:10.000 My big issue with your analysis is I think when you look at the autopsy results and you see that George Floyd was a very sick man before his arrest, he's vulnerable, that supports the argument against Chauvin.

00:50:27.000 It doesn't undermine it.

00:50:30.000 The second thing I would say, and this bears in this as well, is that I'm much more focused on Thomas Lane, who is the first of the police officers on the scene.

00:50:41.000 Um, and Thomas Lane throughout the entire incident is constantly telling Derek Chauvin to get off Floyd.

00:50:49.000 That Floyd is really not well.

00:50:51.000 That he's having difficulty breathing.

00:50:54.000 And Lane is the one who brings up excited delirium.

00:50:57.000 Which you bring up as you see that as that I think that's I that's there's where you and I agree.

00:51:02.000 I think that's why he dies.

00:51:03.000 He dies because of some combination of his drug use, his pre-existing conditions, and the fact that he is in a He's in a position where he's in respiratory distress because he's prone, right? He's got weight on his, sometime on his neck and largely on his back and chest.

00:51:25.000 And have you ever been, Ben, have you ever been in the exact position that Floyd was in?

00:51:31.000 I had someone do that to me.

00:51:32.000 It's really hard to breathe.

00:51:34.000 You should try it.

00:51:35.000 I'm sure it's unpleasant.

00:51:37.000 I mean, the reality, however, is that – and you and I agree on many of the underlying facts here.

00:51:41.000 One of the questions, legally speaking, obviously, is the question of proximate cause.

00:51:45.000 Was it the stress on Floyd – was it positional asphyxia, which was the case that was made by the prosecution that actually led to Floyd's death?

00:51:53.000 Was that the proximate cause of his death?

00:51:54.000 Or was it, in fact, the excited delirium that was started by the fact that he was arrested in the first place?

00:51:59.000 He's already claiming that he can't breathe before he's even taken it out of the car and put it on the ground.

00:52:02.000 So if the idea is that he's in respiratory distress, so grave that he was going to die before anything else happened, and if the original attorney – the original medical examiner said in the report that if we'd found George Floyd dead in his home, he immediately would have attributed it to drug overdose.

00:52:17.000 And, and, Yeah. Was the weight on his back or the weight on his neck, or whether the real question was the underlying health conditions that George Floyd was experiencing.

00:52:32.000 And when you talk about Thomas Lane, we should note here that Thomas Lane, who was telling Chauvin to move Floyd onto his side, the Minneapolis Police Department protocol suggests that actually you're supposed to keep the suspect in prone position until a code four can be called, meaning that the scene is clear.

00:52:49.000 Paramedics didn't even call a code four when they arrived because the scene was not clear.

00:52:52.000 There are many people who are around who are yelling, who are threatening.

00:52:55.000 You can see that in sort of reverse angles of the footage.

00:52:58.000 And so, as you say, it's a very complicated case.

00:53:00.000 They're yelling.

00:53:01.000 The people who are around are yelling for Chauvin to get off Floyd.

00:53:05.000 But that's irrelevant if you're threatening.

00:53:07.000 Meaning that there are people who are threatening around saying, get off Floyd or we're going to come do something to you, presumably.

00:53:13.000 And that is why Chauvin, you can see in the video, he's actually yelling at the crowd.

00:53:16.000 He's yelling back at the crowd.

00:53:17.000 I think that's a travesty.

00:53:46.000 The other three officers who are there all end up going to jail.

00:53:50.000 And so that does suggest to me that there is certainly a political motivation and external circumstances that are affecting the judgment of judges and juries and prosecutors in cases like this, which is incredibly dangerous for the justice system.

00:54:03.000 Yeah. Yeah, I did the second of, I did two part series on the case.

00:54:06.000 And the second, my, the second part was essentially a defense of Thomas Lane.

00:54:11.000 And I don't think that Thomas Lane I don't deserve to go to prison.

00:54:15.000 Thomas Lane, to my mind, is the only voice of reason at the scene.

00:54:19.000 He's the one who says this man is not well.

00:54:23.000 Thomas Lane's the one who calls 9-1-1.

00:54:26.000 And he calls 9-1-1 not just because Floyd has cut his mouth, but because he believes that he is suffering from excited delirium and that he's in a very vulnerable state.

00:54:37.000 And then Lane says to Chauvin repeatedly, this guy's Not doing well.

00:54:42.000 You got to get off him.

00:54:43.000 And we got to put you got to put him in the in the prone in the in the recovery position.

00:54:47.000 I would also point out that, you know, when you was making a distinction between these two, is he someone who was going to be who was who was going to die because he had these pre-existing issues?

00:55:01.000 Or did he does he die because of positional asphyxia?

00:55:05.000 You know, what the cops did to him?

00:55:07.000 My suggestion is that it's it's a combination of both.

00:55:10.000 That The reason why, and I wanted to, I brought up this morning, I was looking at the Minneapolis Use of Force Guidelines, and is one of the things they say is the maximal restraint technique, which is what Chauvin's doing, shall only be used in situations where handcuffed subjects are combative and still pose a threat to themselves, officers, or others, or could cause significant damage to property if not properly restrained.

00:55:38.000 And I think The issue here is that, and the reason everyone got so upset with Chauvin's behavior, is that having restrained Floyd, having gotten him under control, he doesn't get off.

00:55:53.000 And you're not supposed to do that, have someone in that position for nine minutes.

00:55:59.000 And the reason it's so dangerous to put someone in that position for nine minutes is not that she'll kill If someone put me in that position for nine minutes, I'm not going to die, right?

00:56:10.000 I'll be very uncomfortable.

00:56:12.000 I'll be short of breath, but I won't die.

00:56:13.000 But the reason you don't do it for 90 minutes to someone who you've just arrested is you don't know what their underlying condition is, right?

00:56:21.000 You don't know whether they have a heart condition.

00:56:24.000 You don't know whether they have COVID and lungs filled with fluid.

00:56:28.000 So you have to be careful.

00:56:29.000 There's a point that the Minneapolis head of detectives makes in the trial when he says, You know, he repeats that police adage, when someone is in your custody, he's in your care.

00:56:43.000 And Lane has that position.

00:56:46.000 He's like, this man is now in our care, and he's suffering.

00:56:50.000 And Chauvin seems indifferent.

00:56:52.000 And that's the issue now.

00:56:53.000 That's separate from the legal question.

00:56:55.000 The legal question is the one that I'm talking about here.

00:56:57.000 So when it comes to, you know, the question of, for example, proximate cause, you say that it's both things combined.

00:57:02.000 That it's the excited delirium and it's the weight on his back.

00:57:06.000 That they killed him.

00:57:07.000 That's the case that the prosecution attempts to make.

00:57:10.000 My contention is that that case cannot be, it's not possible for that case to be proved even remotely beyond a reasonable doubt given the autopsy results and given the fact that again when you're citing the Minneapolis Department of the Police Department's use of force guidelines there is in fact a proviso which says that if the crowd is not secure then a lot of that goes out the window.

00:57:29.000 And this is one of the questions.

00:57:30.000 And in the tape, again, you see Chauvin gesturing while Floyd is going under, while Floyd, his breathing stops.

00:57:35.000 And it's about the last 50 seconds of the tape.

00:57:37.000 He's not breathing for the entire nine minutes.

00:57:39.000 He stops breathing, apparently, according to the tape, the last 50 seconds or so, which, listen, it's all tragic and horrifying.

00:57:45.000 But at that point in the video, you can see that Chauvin is not focused on Floyd.

00:57:49.000 Chauvin is focused on trying to get the crowd back.

00:57:51.000 He's literally pointing at the crowd with the baton, telling them that they need to get back.

00:57:55.000 And when the paramedics arrive, the paramedics don't even call a code four.

00:57:58.000 The paramedics, which says seen all clear, the paramedics don't do that.

00:58:01.000 And so my position here is that policing is inherently, and you've written about this, ugly, difficult work in which you're finding people at the lowest moment of their lives.

00:58:11.000 And that means that anything on tape, if Chauvin had not died, this would look like an ugly arrest.

00:58:17.000 I mean, if Floyd had not died, it would look like an ugly arrest.

00:58:20.000 I mean, there was an arrest that was quite similar, actually, that Chauvin did a few years back.

00:58:24.000 Before this, during a domestic violence call where he used exactly the same position, the person did not die, he was not reprimanded, he shouldn't have been reprimanded, it was a domestic violence call.

00:58:32.000 There's a reason why this procedure was in the Minneapolis Police Department playbook in the first place.

00:58:37.000 I mean, down to an actual picture that looks like, that was not allowed at trial by the way, that looks like Chauvin on Floyd's neck.

00:58:43.000 I mean, there's like an actual silhouetted picture that looks exactly like that in the guidebook for the Minneapolis Police Department.

00:58:50.000 And so, the case that I'm making here is that It's essentially multifold.

00:58:54.000 One is that there is no way, just from the facts of the case, to determine beyond a reasonable doubt that Derek Chauvin is responsible for George Floyd's death, given the autopsy results, Floyd's prior health condition, the fact that he's saying he can't breathe for multiple times before he's even put on the ground.

00:59:07.000 So there's a proximate cause problem.

00:59:09.000 Then there is the question of, even if you want to make a case for excessive use of force, which, fine, let's say that that case exists.

00:59:14.000 That case does not exist for second degree murder.

00:59:16.000 That's a totally different charge.

00:59:17.000 Then you have the question of the jury.

00:59:20.000 The jury was clearly intimidated in this case.

00:59:22.000 This was the most highly profiled criminal justice case since the OJ Simpson case.

00:59:27.000 You had the Minneapolis city government giving a $27 million settlement to George Floyd's family in the middle of jury selection.

00:59:34.000 You had Joe Biden declaring during the case that he was hoping that children would be found guilty.

00:59:39.000 I mean, this is one of the least unbiased cases ever.

00:59:43.000 I think the Thomas Lane conviction is perfect evidence of the fact that these cases were biased beyond all recognition.

00:59:50.000 And that's terrible for the justice system. 0.81

00:59:51.000 I think the thing that you and I are doing right now, a reasonable discussion about the George Floyd death and Chauvin's responsibility for that, is precisely the thing that never happened during his trial or the lead up to the trial.

01:00:02.000 And that's one of the reasons why I think that you saw this sort of explosion in public sentiment that really had almost nothing to do with the case.

01:00:08.000 I mean, one of the things that was never even alleged in the case by federal prosecutors or by state prosecutors is that any of this happened because George Floyd was black.

01:00:15.000 That was the thing that was never alleged.

01:00:17.000 There was no evidence ever presented at any of the trials or in the media that Chauvin was a racist.

01:00:21.000 And in fact, the other officers who are standing around, one was white, one was Hmong, and one was black.

01:00:26.000 And so the idea that this was a race-based case, which became the predicate for the entire Black Lives Matter summer, resulting in massive 20 million person protests and $2 billion in property damage, was predicated on a narrative that was unfolded from a case that could not bear the weight of that narrative.

01:00:42.000 Let me ask you this.

01:00:43.000 So one of the things I think That the difference in the approach that you took in your series and the approach that we took in ours was that we were focused on the question of whether Derek Chauvin was a good police officer.

01:00:56.000 And you were focused on the question of whether the legal system treated him fairly.

01:01:01.000 And they're different questions, as you point out.

01:01:03.000 But I would love for you to respond to our question.

01:01:06.000 Do you think that the way he conducted himself on the night of the George Floyd arrest was good police work?

01:01:14.000 So, as a non-police officer, I have a hard time answering that question because, again, if I looked at just a raw tape of a police officer doing his job in a normal light, it would look ugly to me as a civilian.

01:01:24.000 That's just the reality.

01:01:25.000 I mean, I've seen a lot...

01:01:26.000 Thomas Lane...

01:01:27.000 Sorry, go ahead.

01:01:27.000 Thomas Lane does not believe that Derek Chauvin was doing good police work on the night of the George Floyd arrest.

01:01:36.000 So, there are other officers, peer officers, who look, who were there on the scene, who were aghast of what Chauvin was doing.

01:01:45.000 Genevieve Hansen, who is one of the first to arrive on the scene, who was a firefighter, a Minneapolis firefighter, who was out for a walk that night.

01:01:55.000 She's the one, one of the most vocal voices in the crowd, who's screaming to Chauvin, get off him, he's dying, get off him, he's dying.

01:02:03.000 She's someone who's very familiar with first responding work, and she was aghast at his behavior.

01:02:10.000 The chief of The 9-11 dispatcher on the night of, who was watching the whole thing on, the Minneapolis Police Department had a camera on the corner of 38th and Chicago, so she was able to watch it.

01:02:24.000 She's the first person to watch the video.

01:02:26.000 She watched it in real time from the 9-11 dispatch office.

01:02:29.000 She's so unbelievably shocked at what she's seeing that she asks whether the camera's frozen.

01:02:38.000 She can't believe he's still on He's still doing that technique for nine minutes on Floyd and she calls for the first time in her seven years as a as a N911 dispatcher calls the sergeant in the local precinct and says you've got to get down there something bad is going on.

01:02:53.000 So there's lots of people credible people that night who are observing his technique and are saying this is not this is not the way police officers are supposed to handle a case and if the guy has been saying I can't breathe, I can't breathe.

01:03:07.000 As you point out correctly, this is a crucial point that I'm so happy you made.

01:03:12.000 Floyd's saying, I can't breathe, I can't breathe, before they put him on the ground, right?

01:03:16.000 It's the first thing he says.

01:03:18.000 He's clearly in distress even before they put handcuffs on him.

01:03:21.000 But if a man's saying, I can't breathe, I can't breathe, over and over again, the last thing you want to do is put him in a prone position with your knee on his neck and his back.

01:03:30.000 There are a few points you made here.

01:03:31.000 One is that the police are taught that if you can talk, you can breathe.

01:03:34.000 Right, and that actually is one of the things that the police are taught.

01:03:37.000 Second of all, as far as the examination of chauvinist behavior, I think that the sort of hard bright line distinction that you're making between good police work and bad police work is not actually the reality of policing for the vast majority of police.

01:03:50.000 Just as for anybody in their job, I think that not every day is a great day or a horrible day in terms of how you do your job.

01:03:55.000 A lot of it lives in this messy gray middle that really is Horrifyingly bad to live in when you're a police officer.

01:04:02.000 I mean, I know a lot of police officers in a lot of different police departments, and I think that one of the ways that you can tell what police officers thought of this trial and of Chauvin's behavior is in the sort of revealed preference that you see in the aftermath of this.

01:04:13.000 What do police officers start to do?

01:04:15.000 And there's clear evidence this was happening.

01:04:17.000 Police officers stop enforcing the law.

01:04:19.000 Police officers are so afraid that if they do good police work, it is going to be perceived by the civilian population and possible prosecutors as bad police work, that they say, I'm just not going to engage.

01:04:29.000 I'm going to pull back.

01:04:30.000 And you get a massive increase in murder rate all across the country in our major cities for approximately two years.

01:04:36.000 And that is worse than that.

01:04:38.000 It's worse than that.

01:04:39.000 When you talk about revealed preference, what police officers did following that case was to leave the Police forces around the country in droves.

01:04:48.000 I mean, that's even more dramatic.

01:04:51.000 That's a real reveal of preference.

01:04:53.000 And so because of that reveal of preference, I guess what I'm saying is, yes, you can find police officers who are going to look at that tape and say, that's bad police work.

01:04:59.000 And I talked to police officers who said that's bad police work.

01:05:02.000 I also talked to police officers who said, I don't know what I would do in that situation because police work is inherently in the moment.

01:05:08.000 You're making hard and fast decisions in the moment involving like Your physical body and other people's physical bodies, and you have to prep for that.

01:05:14.000 Sometimes it goes the wrong way.

01:05:16.000 If George Floyd had lived, none of this ever would have made the news.

01:05:18.000 If George Floyd had been white, it probably wouldn't have made the news is the sad truth of it, even if it should have made the news.

01:05:23.000 And so the police officers were saying, listen, I live 80% of my life in this messy middle between the beautiful arrest and taking the cat out of the tree and a police officer just gunning down an unarmed man for no apparent reason.

01:05:35.000 85, 90% of my time is spent in that messy gray area.

01:05:38.000 And if that messy gray area is going to be policed with a bright line drawn by civilians who have never done a police ride-along, then I can't do this job.

01:05:45.000 I'm going to end up in jail for doing exactly what I do every single day.

01:05:49.000 And so when we talk about these issues, I think that's why it's so important to examine it.

01:05:53.000 Yeah, I think your angle, was he a bad police officer?

01:05:55.000 Was the police action right?

01:05:56.000 That of course is a perfectly relevant question, but when it comes to should a man be in jail for 23 years based on what is a messy middle case at best, And based on, you know, leaving aside even the question of proximate cause and I think reasonable doubt, it is, again, I think it would be very difficult for an objective person to listen to the conversation we're having and say beyond a reasonable doubt was clearly met in this case.

01:06:17.000 Beyond a reasonable doubt is a very strict standard in the criminal justice system and there's just no way to get to beyond a reasonable doubt given the conflicting facts, the autopsy report, the jury intimidation, and all the rest of it.

01:06:27.000 But, putting all that aside, I think that if the question that you've asked, and you've talked about it a lot, is public policy with regard to police officers, there's two sides to that coin.

01:06:34.000 One is we would all like beautiful pictures of the police taking cats out of trees.

01:06:37.000 And then there's the reality of what police work actually is, which is inherently dealing with people on their worst day, many of whom have serious criminal backgrounds and who have resisted arrest and who have done bad things in the past, and police officers who are doing this day in and day out.

01:06:53.000 And their daily work is the same as your daily work in the sense it's a thing you do every single day.

01:06:57.000 It's not you in a sort of unique situation where you get to be a hero or you get to be a villain.

01:07:02.000 Yeah. No, I believe me.

01:07:05.000 I have been writing about this for much of my career and I think it's a deeply important and fascinating question that this is the hardest.

01:07:15.000 This is one of the hardest professions we have and the consequences of screwing up or making a bad judgment call as a police officer are very often that you go to prison.

01:07:24.000 And so that's not true of You know, if I make a bad judgment call, I don't go to prison, right?

01:07:29.000 Nobody shoots me.

01:07:30.000 Nobody, you know, so I totally understand that it's hard.

01:07:34.000 One of the things I did when I was doing my series on Revisionist History about this was called up a bunch of police chiefs and asked them on this question about, you know, about had them walk to the George Floyd case with me to get their perspective.

01:07:50.000 And what they talk about is it is absolutely the case that a lot of police work is Inherently complicated.

01:07:57.000 And one, I talked to this really wonderful police chief named Daniel Oates, who was talking about, you can't even use use of force complaints as a proxy for how good a police officer is.

01:08:10.000 It's just, there's too much noise in the system.

01:08:12.000 You don't know, it depends where they're working.

01:08:14.000 And you make this point, where they're working, how many hours they're working.

01:08:17.000 But he did say, look, at any given time, there are on a police force, 5% of your force is not up to the task.

01:08:25.000 One of the real public health...

01:08:27.000 His take-home lesson from George Floyd was, it is too hard for police officers to get rid of the 5% who aren't any good. 1.00

01:08:34.000 And that's union rules. 0.80

01:08:35.000 And, you know, if you told me that the number one reform that came out of George Floyd was that we crack down on the excessive protections for bad police officers that union contracts have created, I would say I'm happy.

01:08:50.000 That's not what happened.

01:08:51.000 And that's one of the reasons I'm not happy with it.

01:08:53.000 But I do think there are really thoughtful ways in which we could have responded to this that would have made policing better.

01:09:00.000 And giving, you know, and this guy Daniel Oster and many other police officers, many other police chiefs would say, look, we could prevent these cases in the future if you just gave us a little more discretion about who we can hire and fire on our police departments.

01:09:17.000 I mean, it's impossible.

01:09:19.000 I agree.

01:09:20.000 I mean, I think that if you combine two policies, it would actually alleviate this a lot.

01:09:24.000 One, you massively increase the size of police forces because police officers are generally overworked.

01:09:29.000 They're generally in precincts where there's too much...

01:09:33.000 Police are sort of misallocated.

01:09:35.000 In low crime areas, there are too many police, and in high crime areas, there actually are not enough police, by a long stretch.

01:09:41.000 I mean, this is particularly true in my old hometown of Los Angeles, where the police-to-civilian ratio is just extraordinary.

01:09:47.000 I mean, it's one police officer Yeah.

01:09:52.000 Yeah. Yeah.

01:10:03.000 wall. So you actually need to massively expand police forces.

01:10:05.000 And yes, you're right.

01:10:07.000 Get rid, make it easier to get rid of police officers who clearly do the wrong thing.

01:10:11.000 So when it comes to public policy, again, I wish those had been the conversations that were had and instead it turned Massive protests about the nature of American racism and slavery and Jim Crow and all this kind of stuff.

01:10:22.000 Problems that are basically incurable because there's no actual prognosis for what you're supposed to do next.

01:10:31.000 Yeah, it's funny.

01:10:32.000 I was doing my research for my series on vicious history and I read this really, really thoughtful analysis of the case talking about this question of union regulations and how Collective bargaining agreements with police unions have made it really hard to fire bad cops, and that's a public policy reform we really need to push.

01:10:55.000 And I realized when I finished reading it, it was written by someone who was high up at Black Lives Matter.

01:11:02.000 So the point is, they did say this, but it didn't.

01:11:05.000 You're right.

01:11:06.000 I thought this was a really important part of the message that got ignored, and they themselves weren't making this argument by the end.

01:11:14.000 And I think that was a mistake.

01:11:16.000 If I was rethinking the Black Lives Matter response in retrospect, I'd do it differently.

01:11:24.000 I think they should have talked much more about those kinds of very pragmatic structural changes we could make to the system that would make it easier for police officers to do their job.

01:11:34.000 I'm totally with you, by the way, on hiring more police.

01:11:40.000 We have misallocated in America.

01:11:43.000 We spend way too much money on prisons and way too little money on And every criminologist who's ever studied crime will tell you that it is such a better investment to invest up front in the prevention of crime than it is to invest at the end of the process.

01:12:00.000 But there's something else I want to bring up with you on show, Ben.

01:12:04.000 We're doing too much agreeing here, Ben.

01:12:06.000 We're supposed to be at each other's throats.

01:12:11.000 Here's my biggest problem with your series.

01:12:13.000 I think I listened to it all.

01:12:16.000 Now, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe you talked about the John Pope case.

01:12:21.000 No, I didn't.

01:12:22.000 So the John Pope case is the one where I really, it's from three years earlier, and it's a mom calls 911 and says, my son has assaulted me.

01:12:37.000 And we have All of the body cam footage, the whole thing.

01:12:41.000 I'm sorry, I made a mistake.

01:12:42.000 I actually did talk about this case, but go ahead.

01:12:44.000 I apologize.

01:12:44.000 Oh, you did?

01:12:45.000 Yes, yes, yes.

01:12:45.000 Because to my mind, that case, which is Chauvin goes into a room and there's a 14 year old boy playing on his phone and Chauvin says, get up.

01:12:54.000 And the boy says, I didn't do anything.

01:12:56.000 My mom's drunk.

01:12:57.000 She always calls 9-11.

01:12:58.000 Chauvin says, get up.

01:12:59.000 The boy slowly gets up and Chauvin, after like five seconds, goes to the boy, smacks him over the head repeatedly with His flashlight draws blood, puts him in a chokehold, throws him on the ground, and then puts his knee on his neck and his other knee on his back and holds him there for 13 minutes.

01:13:19.000 Now, when you see that, you're like, this was a kid, a 14-year-old.

01:13:25.000 Every time I watch that video, I start crying.

01:13:29.000 It's so...

01:13:30.000 And after watching that video, I was like, Chauvin, he's not a police officer.

01:13:36.000 You can't do that to a 14-year-old kid whose mom's drunk.

01:13:40.000 You can't, like, I just saw that he's in the wrong profession.

01:13:44.000 He's got to do something else.

01:13:46.000 And to my mind, this whole thing, and the other cops, we see it in what's called the John Pope video.

01:13:53.000 There are like six other cops in the room, and when Chauvin gets on the boy's neck, and the boy's whimpering like a 14-year-old would.

01:14:01.000 You have kids, right?

01:14:02.000 Yes. The way that a kid would.

01:14:04.000 Who doesn't understand what's going on?

01:14:05.000 Why is this man, like, beating me up with a flashlight and sitting on my neck because my mom's drunk?

01:14:12.000 Well, it's...

01:14:13.000 Listen, again, this is...

01:14:14.000 It's heartbreaking.

01:14:15.000 And the other thing, my point was, the other cops all file out of the room.

01:14:19.000 They can't take it.

01:14:21.000 Like, they know that Chauvin is a bad egg.

01:14:24.000 Okay, so, you know, there's only one problem with that particular case, which is the no complaint was actually even filed at the time.

01:14:30.000 Meaning that, you know, so it's very difficult to Make the case that he ought to have been fired over an incident in which no complaint was even filed by the family at the time.

01:14:38.000 But in retrospect, it's a clue to the kind of police officer Derek Chauvin is.

01:14:42.000 I mean, that's fair.

01:14:45.000 It's also true that John Pope, again, it's terrible because he's 14. Also, he's a very big kid.

01:14:49.000 But it's a domestic violence call.

01:14:50.000 There are complicating factors that make it slightly more complicated than just the tape.

01:14:54.000 But the fact that no complaint was filed makes it very difficult for the police even to take action, even if that was a bad situation.

01:15:00.000 So, you know, again, when you go through the police's history, I mean, Chauvin had an 18, 19 year history with Minneapolis Police Department.

01:15:09.000 The complaint rate against Chauvin was effectively no higher than it was against a lot of other officers that were in his same precinct.

01:15:14.000 And the number of complaints that actually ended in reprimand was quite low for Chauvin.

01:15:20.000 And so, you know, based on that, it is, again, if we're going to litigate the John Pope situation on its own, I would want to look more deeply into actually all the surrounding circumstances.

01:15:31.000 What was the call like?

01:15:32.000 What exactly was the thing that was being alleged?

01:15:37.000 The tape alone, I think, is one of the things that my takeaway is from the Chauvin case, and many other cases that are like this, is that the tape alone doesn't tell the whole story.

01:15:44.000 Because tape alone is always going to look bad.

01:15:46.000 And even if I agreed with you that the tape looked bad there, that still would not convict Derek Chauvin in a court of law of the second degree unintentional murder Of George Floyd.

01:15:54.000 No, but it's a you're right, but it's a clue.

01:15:57.000 Any more than by the way, any more than George Floyd's previous criminal history, including cases where he actually had claimed being taken out of a car that he couldn't breathe.

01:16:03.000 That actually happened a few years beforehand.

01:16:05.000 Any more than that would exonerate Chauvin, right?

01:16:09.000 The only significance of the John Pope video is that And this points to a structural problem within the Minneapolis Police Department.

01:16:19.000 No one seems to have watched that video until after the Chauvin case.

01:16:22.000 But had someone watched it at the time, I think that there would have been serious questions raised about Chauvin's future on the Minneapolis Police Department.

01:16:31.000 And we would never have had George Floyd's case because he wouldn't have been around to do it.

01:16:35.000 I mean, so it does say, I do think that there is a management failure here where the reason we have these body cam Yeah, I have.

01:17:03.000 It's disturbing.

01:17:05.000 Come on, it's more than disturbing.

01:17:08.000 Well, I mean, my emotional reaction to a police video is precisely the thing that I'm trying to avoid.

01:17:13.000 I know you like facts over feelings, but sometimes, Ben, sometimes feelings tell us something important about a situation.

01:17:23.000 I mean, again, I think that feelings can tell us what we feel about a situation.

01:17:26.000 I'm not sure that they inform the facts of the situation, but that's where we're going to have to disagree yet again.

01:17:30.000 So it's good.

01:17:31.000 We're ending on a point of disagreement.

01:17:33.000 Malcolm Gladwell, thank you so much for taking the time.

01:17:35.000 It's been an interesting discussion.

01:17:36.000 Really appreciate it.

01:17:37.000 Yeah, Ben, it was a pleasure.

01:17:38.000 All right guys, coming up we're going to jump into the mailbag.

01:17:41.000 Remember, if you want to ask me a question and have your question answered, well there's only one way to do that.

01:17:45.000 That's to become a member.

01:17:46.000 You need to head over right now to DailyWirePlus and become a member.

01:17:50.000 Use code SHAPIRA.

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The Ben Shapiro Show - April 01, 2025

The Atlantic’s GIANT Fake News Screw-Up

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