The Ben Shapiro Show - Trump Declares War…On Jerome Powell

00:00:00.000 The Trump DOJ seems to be targeting Fed chair Jerome Powell.

00:00:03.000 What's going on with that?

00:00:04.000 Plus, we're joined by a vice admiral to talk about the latest in Iran and a spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security to explain what ICE is doing in Minnesota.

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00:00:45.000 Well, everyone in the world of economics and in the markets is talking about President Trump's DOJ going after Jerome Powell, the Federal Reserve chairman.

00:00:52.000 Now, again, Jerome Powell is leaving the Fed chairmanship next year anyway.

00:00:57.000 And not only that, he is leaving the Federal Reserve entirely in January of 2028.

00:01:03.000 So it's somewhat confusing as to why the DOJ is going after Jerome Powell if all they have on him is that there are cost overruns in the rebuilding and reconstruction of the Federal Reserve building.

00:01:14.000 Nonetheless, the controversy is hot and heavy today.

00:01:17.000 According to the Wall Street Journal, for years, a Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell responded to President Trump's broad size in ways that generally avoided escalation.

00:01:25.000 That changed on Sunday night.

00:01:26.000 In an extraordinary two-minute video message, Powell accused the administration of using the threat of criminal prosecution to pressure the Fed into lowering rates.

00:01:33.000 He framed the Justice Department investigation as nothing less than a head-on challenge to the Fed's ability to operate free of political control.

00:01:40.000 And of course, he is not the first Federal Reserve Board member to be targeted by the DOJ.

00:01:44.000 Lisa Cook has also been targeted by the DOJ over supposedly misfiling her mortgage forms, falsifying that it was a second mortgage when it was actually a first mortgage or whatever the case is.

00:01:56.000 The point that Powell is making is that it's kind of weird that the only people who seem to be cropping up in the DOJ list of people to investigate are people who are opposed to President Trump's agenda, which is lowering those interest rates.

00:02:07.000 Now, as I've said before, artificially low interest rates are not a good thing.

00:02:11.000 I understand that we've lived with those for a very long time in the United States.

00:02:14.000 It's why everybody has a 3.5% mortgage.

00:02:16.000 But the reality is that the interest rate, if it were allowed to free flow, if it were allowed to float where it should be, would actually ensure less uncredit worthiness in the market.

00:02:27.000 It would prevent speculation.

00:02:29.000 It would allow the market to naturally follow its ebbs and flows rather than creating these gigantic bubbles, which then pop.

00:02:37.000 And a lower interest rate said by the Federal Reserve right now, which effectively injects money into the supply, creates more speculative bubbles.

00:02:44.000 Right now, we may already be in a speculative bubble with regard to AI, which we'll get to in a little while.

00:02:49.000 And so lowering those interest rates as a matter of policy, I'm not sure it's so wise.

00:02:53.000 But even if you were to think that the interest rates should be lowered, the reality is that political pressure on the Federal Reserve to lower the interest rates is going to create enormous schisms in the economy.

00:03:05.000 It's going to make people feel as though the central bank of the United States is operating with political motives in mind, purely political motives in mind, and that the interest rates actually are artificially low, not because the Federal Reserve is getting it wrong, but because of political pressure.

00:03:21.000 And once that happens, once monetary policy becomes a pure tool of whichever party is in power, you start to have a real problem because you can deflate your way out of problems, inflate your way into problems.

00:03:32.000 And there are downstream effects to all of this for the American people.

00:03:35.000 This, by the way, is why I am a devotee of the Austrian School of Economics, which suggests a modified gold standard, not the Federal Reserve sitting there and either printing dollars or buying bonds off the market or injecting liquidity into the system by offering lower interest rates in the overnight markets.

00:03:53.000 Apparently, subpoenas arrived late on Friday.

00:03:56.000 Powell, a lawyer by training, spent the weekend huddling with his advisors, weighing how to respond.

00:04:00.000 A criminal investigation of a sitting chair is without precedent.

00:04:03.000 Powell's message was, too, according to the Wall Street Journal, by going public, Powell was making sure that pressure applied in private couldn't stay private.

00:04:10.000 The decision to disclose the investigation appeared to reflect a belief that the public should know what was unfolding.

00:04:15.000 The threat of prosecution of a sitting Fed chair would be material information for investors or anyone else trying to understand the forces shaping interest rate deliberations.

00:04:24.000 Now, President Trump is claiming he didn't know about the DOJ subpoenas and that any criminal investigation would not be related to disagreements that the White House actually had with Powell over the interest rates.

00:04:35.000 And a lot of allies of the president are not particularly happy about all of this.

00:04:39.000 They see this as needlessly chaotic.

00:04:41.000 According to Politico, a growing number of Republicans on Capitol Hill are expressing unease with the DOJ's move to investigate Jerome Powell.

00:04:51.000 According to House Financial Services Chair French Hill of Arkansas, he said that this creates an unnecessary distraction that could undermine this and future administration's ability to make sound monetary policy decisions.

00:05:02.000 Quote, I've known Chairman Powell since we worked together at Treasury during the George H.W. Bush administration.

00:05:07.000 Then as now, I know Mr. Powell to be a man of integrity with a strong commitment to public service.

00:05:11.000 While over the years we've had our policy disagreements, I found him to be forthright, candid, and a person of the highest integrity.

00:05:19.000 Senator Kevin Kramer, Republican of North Dakota, called Powell a bad Fed chair who has been elusive with Congress, especially regarding the overruns of the elaborate renovations of the building.

00:05:28.000 I do not believe, however, he is a criminal.

00:05:30.000 Again, Kramer is a strong ally of President Trump.

00:05:33.000 He said, I hope this criminal investigation can be put to rest quickly along with the remainder of Jerome Powell's term.

00:05:38.000 We need to restore confidence in the Fed.

00:05:40.000 Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, who, again, is a sort of purple-y senator.

00:05:45.000 She tends to vote more often with the Democrats.

00:05:48.000 She wrote that the administration's investigation is nothing more than an attempt at coercion and added: if the DOJ believes an investigation into Chair Powell is warranted based on project cost overruns, which aren't unusual, then Congress needs to investigate the DOJ.

00:06:02.000 The stakes are too high to look the other way.

00:06:04.000 If the Federal Reserve loses its independence, the stability of our markets and the broader economy will suffer.

00:06:09.000 And again, this sort of stuff is not salutary for Republican chances in the midterms.

00:06:14.000 It isn't.

00:06:15.000 What Americans are looking for right now is a feeling of solidity.

00:06:19.000 They want to feel as though things are moving in the right direction, that they are not standing on shifting sands all the time.

00:06:26.000 And what the polling shows right now is that people are increasingly not just moving away from Republicans, they're moving away from both parties, actually.

00:06:32.000 Brand new Gallup polling shows 45% of Americans, the highest in recorded history, now identify as political independents.

00:06:41.000 Now, that doesn't mean they're not voting Republican or Democrat.

00:06:44.000 It means they do not identify with either party as sort of a point of pride.

00:06:48.000 In most years since Gallup began recording these statistics since 1988, independents have been the largest political group, but that percentage has been skyrocketing since about 2005.

00:07:01.000 In 2005, the American public was split 33, 33, 33, essentially.

00:07:07.000 Today, almost half say they are political independents at this point.

00:07:13.000 And again, if you look at how people are identifying by cohort, what you see is that Gen Zers are identifying as independent overwhelmingly at 56%, Democrat 27, Republican, 17.

00:07:24.000 Millennials are identifying as independent 54%, 24% Democrat, 21% Republican.

00:07:31.000 Gen X identifies 31% Republican, 42% Independent, 25% Democrat.

00:07:38.000 And it's really only as people get older that they stop identifying nearly as much as independent.

00:07:44.000 When it comes to how they are leaning, Republican independent leaners about 15% of the population, but Democrat-leaning independents represent 20%.

00:07:56.000 So again, if you add up the Democratic identifiers with the Democratic-leaning independents, they're currently at 47% of the electorate.

00:08:03.000 For Republicans, that statistic is 42%.

00:08:08.000 So again, the numbers are not looking amazing for Republicans here.

00:08:12.000 With that said, When it comes to identifying ideologically, a plurality of Americans say they identify as conservative, followed by 33% of moderate.

00:08:24.000 There is a rising percentage.

00:08:26.000 28% identify as liberal or very liberal.

00:08:29.000 So if there is movement, that movement is actually in the direction of liberal to very liberal at this point.

00:08:36.000 More on this in a moment.

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00:10:46.000 So Republicans are running in choppy waters for sure.

00:10:51.000 And the president injecting, I would say, needless chaos into the economic system is not a great idea, particularly because, again, there are a lot of indicators that things are going pretty well.

00:11:00.000 CNN reported, for example, that the mortgage rates have now dropped below 6%.

00:11:04.000 Again, that's not 3.5%, but it's certainly well below the 8% or 9% that seemed to be the rule of the day during the Biden administration.

00:11:11.000 Mortgage rates on Friday fell below 6% for the first time in years.

00:11:16.000 And this comes after the president ordered his quote-unquote representatives to begin buying $200 billion worth of mortgage bonds.

00:11:24.000 What are you hearing about this move?

00:11:25.000 So at first, we actually did see yields coming down.

00:11:28.000 And that's exactly what the administration wanted.

00:11:30.000 And it was interesting because the bond markets sort of waited a bit to fuss out how they felt about this.

00:11:34.000 And then you had investors coming in and saying, okay, let's move REIPS down.

00:11:38.000 But then after this Powell investigation dropped over the weekend, we have the exact opposite effect happening.

00:11:43.000 The market has already undone all of the good of lower rates that happened off the back of that $200 billion mortgage bond purchase announcement.

00:11:51.000 Now, with that said, again, mortgage rates being lower is a good thing.

00:11:54.000 It means that people can get a mortgage more easily.

00:11:56.000 Meanwhile, it turns out that as we've been noting, there's been a lot of talk about affordability.

00:12:00.000 And one of the things that I have been pushing for a while, and that, of course, has now been taken out of context repeatedly, is the idea that rents are not the same everywhere.

00:12:08.000 Rents are not the same in Manhattan as they are in Austin, Texas.

00:12:11.000 And it seems that actually a bunch of the Sunbelt cities, the rents have not only been coming down, even with regards to, say, luxury apartments, rents have been coming down and concessions have been going up.

00:12:21.000 According to the Wall Street Journal, about 54% of rentals in the Phoenix metro area are giving tenants at least one month off their rent.

00:12:29.000 Why?

00:12:30.000 Well, because builders saw that there was a movement in population into Phoenix and those evil, terrible corporations then built a bunch of luxury apartments.

00:12:37.000 And then fewer people than expected showed up and then the rents went down.

00:12:40.000 See how that works?

00:12:42.000 When you increase the supply and the demand stabilizes, then the price goes down.

00:12:47.000 I know, shocking.

00:12:48.000 The renter-friendly environment in Phoenix is a symptom of the city's enormous glut of high-end apartments.

00:12:53.000 Developers flooded the Sunbelt with new luxury buildings and flashy amenities during the pandemic years when droves of remote workers were moving in.

00:13:00.000 That led to a record surge of new apartments hitting the market.

00:13:03.000 Now there aren't enough renters to fill them.

00:13:06.000 Places like Denver and Charlotte, North Carolina are similarly oversupplied.

00:13:09.000 By the way, you will notice that some of those places, like Charlotte, particularly, are actually heavily corporate owned.

00:13:15.000 We were told that those corporations owning apartment buildings was bad, but the rents are going down.

00:13:20.000 There's not a correlation between corporate ownership and rents going up.

00:13:25.000 It all depends on the amount of supply injected into the system, particularly if people in corporations, for example, are buying up houses that were owned by others and then renting them out.

00:13:35.000 That now is a piece of rental supply.

00:13:39.000 Landlords struggling to fill their empty apartments use concessions as a way to draw more tenants without having to cut their baseline prices.

00:13:45.000 The renters effectively end up paying a lower rent.

00:13:47.000 Landlords prefer that upfront discount because it's a more temporary hit and allows them to maintain the advertised value of the property for lenders and investors.

00:13:55.000 But Phoenix rents have been falling steadily.

00:13:58.000 And again, it is not just Phoenix.

00:14:01.000 The other cities that are offering major concessions, exactly where you would think.

00:14:05.000 Phoenix, Denver, Charlotte, Austin, San Antonio, Raleigh, North Carolina, Jacksonville, Florida, Tampa, Florida, Nashville, and Las Vegas.

00:14:13.000 You notice where you're not seeing a lot of that stuff?

00:14:15.000 LA, New York, precisely the places where we are told that nobody should ever move.

00:14:20.000 You should stay there.

00:14:21.000 And rent control will fix the problem for you.

00:14:23.000 So again, there are good indicators here that people are going to be able to achieve more affordable lifestyles, particularly if they are living in red areas in red states.

00:14:33.000 Meanwhile, Kevin Hassett, chairman of the National Council of Economic Advisors, he says that we are looking at possibly 5% GDP growth in Q4, which is astonishing.

00:14:44.000 Bottom line, right now, I'm looking at the output numbers, and we got GDP now north of 5% in the fourth quarter after 2-4% the previous quarter.

00:14:52.000 So I think you got to say that Trump policies are really working.

00:14:55.000 They're really working.

00:14:56.000 And they're working because they're onshoring production.

00:14:59.000 They're causing factories to build.

00:15:01.000 And in the fullness of time, I expect that to cause a job blowout in the second half of next year, especially.

00:15:07.000 Now, again, I do not think that the reason that the Trump economy is working is because of, say, the tariffs.

00:15:11.000 I think the Trump economy is working because we maintain the same tax rates.

00:15:15.000 We did not upset the apple cart.

00:15:16.000 We've cut regulations in a pretty marked way.

00:15:18.000 And again, populations are moving from non-business-friendly areas like California to significantly more business-friendly areas like, say, Texas and Florida.

00:15:28.000 Meanwhile, the home building costs are going to come down.

00:15:31.000 They will.

00:15:32.000 This is a point being made by former Senator Kristen Sinema.

00:15:34.000 She was a Democrat who turned independent.

00:15:36.000 She points out that as AI kicks in, as robotics kicks in, the cost on building a home is going to drop pretty markedly, which of course is true.

00:15:44.000 So there are about eight or so companies in the country that are using AI robots to build homes.

00:15:50.000 You're going to see those start deploying out this year.

00:15:53.000 We're reducing the cost of homebuilding by up to 40%.

00:15:56.000 That's going to make a huge difference for middle-class Americans.

00:16:00.000 Part of this is part of a bigger story, which is that the middle class has been moving into the upper middle class for years on end.

00:16:06.000 This, of course, is a point being made by the Wall Street Journal editorial board.

00:16:09.000 And this has been true for a long time.

00:16:11.000 According to Stephen Rose and Scott Winchip, most studies purporting to find a shrinking middle class in America are prone to a variety of measurement and analytical problems.

00:16:20.000 The biggest is the difficulty of defining a middle class.

00:16:24.000 Instead, Rose and Winchip said an absolute marker for different income groups based on multiples of the federal poverty level in 2024.

00:16:31.000 So, for example, for families of three, poor is a household income below 40 grand.

00:16:35.000 The core middle class would be incomes from 67 grand to 133 grand.

00:16:40.000 Upper middle class would be incomes up to 400 grand.

00:16:43.000 Then they use that inflation data to calibrate those thresholds for previous years going back to 1979.

00:16:48.000 Measured in that way, the story of the past 50 years is steady progress out of the core middle class and into the upper middle class.

00:16:55.000 The share of families in that core middle class has declined to 30.8% in 2024 from 35.5% in 1979.

00:17:03.000 But so have the proportions in the poor and lower middle class cohorts.

00:17:06.000 The upper middle class has exploded.

00:17:08.000 Only 10.4% of people in 1979 were in the upper middle class.

00:17:12.000 Now, that is nearly one-third of families.

00:17:15.000 For the first time in American history, according to Rose and Winchip, more families in 2024 were above the core middle class threshold, 35%, than below it.

00:17:25.000 Now, again, doesn't mean we don't have cost overruns and cost problems, particularly in heavily regulated blue areas.

00:17:33.000 But the notion that the American economy has been failing everybody is clearly untrue on a fundamental level.

00:17:39.000 Meanwhile, we are seeing some consolidation in the AI industry.

00:17:42.000 This is kind of interesting because you could see a world where this does lead to the bubble bursting, as we were discussing a little bit earlier.

00:17:48.000 Well, we are also seeing a consolidation inside the AI industry.

00:17:52.000 So a fascinating story out today.

00:17:54.000 Apparently, Apple has now chosen Google's Gemini to power Siri.

00:17:58.000 So that'll make Siri a hell of a lot better.

00:18:00.000 It also means that Gemini now has a leg up.

00:18:02.000 Gemini is incredible.

00:18:04.000 It's in heavy competition with ChatGPT right now as the best AI chatbot that is available today, the best LLM available today.

00:18:14.000 Gemini seems to be growing by leaps and bounds.

00:18:16.000 Well, if, let's say, Gemini were to out-compete OpenAI so thoroughly that OpenAI were to start to fall apart, that could have some knock-on effects to the broader economy.

00:18:26.000 Doesn't mean that AI is a bubble.

00:18:27.000 Does mean that there are certain competitors who could theoretically lose.

00:18:31.000 When competitors lose and there's a consolidation in the market, depends if there's bleedover to other companies as well.

00:18:36.000 So we'll definitely be keeping an eye on that.

00:18:38.000 Meanwhile, the other big story of the day, of course, is the continuation of chaos surrounding what's going on with ICE.

00:18:44.000 Obviously, the anger is palpable in places like Minneapolis.

00:18:50.000 People don't believe they're breaking the law, even when they're breaking the law.

00:18:52.000 If you get in the way of ICE officials who are attempting to pursue a federal operation, you are, in fact, violating federal law and you will get yourself into hot water.

00:19:00.000 According to the Washington Post, they say they're monitoring ICE arrests.

00:19:04.000 Feds say they are breaking the law.

00:19:05.000 They're talking here about a lot of these sort of ICE watch groups.

00:19:09.000 The fatal shooting of Renee Goode last week, says the Washington Post, as ICE officers and residents faced off on a residential street here has brought new attention to these sorts of activities.

00:19:18.000 Federal court rulings say citizens can observe and record police activity in public areas as part of their First Amendment rights.

00:19:24.000 Many of the observers are doing nothing more than that.

00:19:26.000 But as officers and agents employ aggressive tactics, some activists have blown whistles to warn community members of approaching law enforcement, tried to follow immigration enforcement vehicles or use their own cars to block the roadways that enters murkier legal territory.

00:19:40.000 Some legal experts said such behavior could, in theory, justify obstruction of justice charges.

00:19:46.000 Well, that's particularly true if you're taking your car and literally blocking ICE agents from getting to the place they need to be.

00:19:52.000 Officials throughout the Department of Homeland Security are vowing to prosecute anybody who interferes with an operation or endangers an officer.

00:19:59.000 Joining us on the line to discuss is Tricia McLaughlin.

00:20:02.000 She's assistant secretary for public affairs for Homeland Security.

00:20:05.000 Thanks so much for taking the time.

00:20:06.000 Really appreciate it.

00:20:07.000 Ben, thank you for having me.

00:20:08.000 So first of all, why don't you explain, for people who've only been watching the legacy media coverage, why don't you explain exactly what the Department of Homeland Security is doing with these sort of large-scale ICE deportation operations?

00:20:20.000 Who are they targeting?

00:20:21.000 Which are the people that they're going after?

00:20:23.000 We are targeting the worst, the worst criminal legal aliens. 0.99

00:20:26.000 Ben, we know at least 20 million criminal legal aliens came into this country over the last four years alone.

00:20:32.000 So really our top priority are these gang members, our murderers, our child.

00:20:39.000 You know, I just see the reports every single day.

00:20:41.000 They come into a piece of paper on my office.

00:20:45.000 And what we've seen is just flabbergasting as far as the number of criminals who have been allowed to walk around with impunity in this country.

00:20:52.000 There's been over a thousand known or suspected terrorists that we've arrested in the last year, 3,500 members of Trende Aragua that we've arrested.

00:21:02.000 And there's plenty more who are out there.

00:21:03.000 And that's why we have been flooding the zone to get these individuals out of our country. 0.85

00:21:07.000 So how necessary is it to quote unquote flood the zone?

00:21:10.000 So obviously the ICE operation has been incredibly visible.

00:21:13.000 That means that you have groups that are well-funded like ICE Watch, for example, who are showing up to obstruct ICE operations.

00:21:18.000 You know, I think that formerly the ineffective operations pursued by non-Trump administrations during my lifetime have been kind of low visibility operations by ICE.

00:21:27.000 Certainly what we're watching now is significantly more visible.

00:21:29.000 Is it necessary for ICE to be as visible as they're being in pursuing these operations?

00:21:34.000 Well, I think we should take a step back and talk about what a sanctuary city means.

00:21:38.000 So when we're talking about Minneapolis, New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, and we call them sanctuary cities.

00:21:43.000 What exactly does that mean?

00:21:44.000 A, it means that these sanctuary city politicians are harboring these criminal legal aliens, but B, it also means that our law enforcement is not permitted to work with them.

00:21:55.000 And C, and this is the most important part, I think, for your audience, is that that means ICE law enforcement is not allowed into the jails.

00:22:03.000 So if Chicago picks up a criminal legal alien, maybe they picked up somebody who was convicted of and that person is in their jail.

00:22:11.000 They're not allowed to release them to ICE or coordinate their eventual release to ICE for eventual deportation.

00:22:19.000 What happens is that person will serve a certain amount of time, then they'll be released back onto the streets.

00:22:24.000 So the reason that we have such a large law enforcement presence is because we can't go into those jails to target those criminals.

00:22:32.000 And so we have to really sweep the city and target them in place using intelligence, using our case analysis, and make sure that we're going after these individuals.

00:22:41.000 So when we look at the sort of thing that's been happening in Minnesota, where you have people suggesting that ICE is engaged in state-sponsored terrorism or that ICE is the Gestapo, what was the exact operation that was happening in Minnesota for people unfamiliar?

00:22:56.000 So we've arrested in just the last five weeks alone 2,000 illegal aliens.

00:23:02.000 That includes multiple, I would say scores.

00:23:07.000 In fact, multiple murders, a known and suspected terrorists, multiple gang members.

00:23:14.000 But we also, in Minneapolis itself, of course, we've seen a scourge of fraud, $9 billion, but we think that that's just the tip of the iceberg.

00:23:23.000 So, our Homeland Security investigators are on the ground there.

00:23:27.000 We've had about 300.

00:23:28.000 They're not doing immigration enforcement.

00:23:30.000 They're really looking at this fraud and white-collar crime.

00:23:34.000 In addition, we have about 1,000-plus ERO, which is ICE enforcement, those members on the ground who are really sweeping the city there.

00:23:45.000 And as well, we are also doing immigration fraud, high-level investigations with USCIS, which is the arm of DHS that gives out visas, gives out green cards, but also does audits for fraud, like we're seeing in Minneapolis.

00:24:00.000 So, obviously, enormous eyeballs on this Renee Good situation, which I think everyone can agree, regardless of your interpretation of the situation, is tragic, but that has nothing to do with whether the officer who was involved did anything wrong.

00:24:12.000 The only question from a legal perspective with regard to the officer is whether he had the objectively reasonable view that he was about to be hit by a car.

00:24:18.000 And since he, in fact, was hit by a car in the process of shooting the defendant, the person who was killed, that seems to be dispositive from a purely legal level.

00:24:28.000 Why do you think this is blown up this way?

00:24:30.000 Well, I think that everyone's going into their different camps and instead of waiting and looking at the true facts on the ground, of course, immigration enforcement is polarizing, particularly to those on the left.

00:24:42.000 But the truth of the matter is, this was the mandate that President Trump was given when he was elected into office.

00:24:48.000 The American people saw that crime was surging.

00:24:51.000 If you look at Minneapolis alone, since Governor Walls became governor, homicides in Minneapolis have increased 50%.

00:25:01.000 But I think when you look at this particular incident, of course, any loss of life is tragic.

00:25:06.000 And we pray for the deceased and her family.

00:25:09.000 But what happened leading up to this, those facts are incredibly important.

00:25:13.000 At 10.25 a.m. Central Time on Wednesday, January 7th, what happened was this individual, she had been impeding and blocking in our ICE law enforcement officers.

00:25:24.000 She had been doing that throughout the day, obstructing lawful operations, which Ben, as you know, that is a felony. 0.99

00:25:32.000 At one point, our ICE law enforcement officers then approached her vehicle and said to get out of the car.

00:25:38.000 She was going to be under arrest.

00:25:40.000 And they commanded her to stop obstructing operations.

00:25:45.000 That's when she would not obey those lawful commands.

00:25:49.000 That's when we see in the video, the law enforcement officer is in front of her.

00:25:55.000 She hits the gas, and he was in fear of his own life.

00:25:58.000 And he was in fear of the law enforcement who are around him.

00:26:01.000 She used, she weaponized her vehicle. 0.99

00:26:04.000 She used it as a deadly weapon. 1.00

00:26:05.000 And our officer, he responded as his training instructs him to do.

00:26:10.000 And unfortunately, there was a loss of life here, but our officer, he conducted himself in the way he should have, and he did save his own life.

00:26:17.000 So what do you make of, you know, again, major Democrats who are coming out and comparing ICE to the Gestapo, suggesting that we are living now under the predations of police state and vowing that they're going to try to impede ICE operations themselves?

00:26:29.000 You've seen those sorts of claims being made by top-level Democratic politicians.

00:26:33.000 Well, they're clearly legally illiterate because ICE, CBP, and other DHS law enforcement, they are conducting these operations with the law behind them.

00:26:43.000 If people don't like ICE enforcing the rule of law, which is what our men and women are doing every single day, these politicians should change the law or they can lobby Congress to change the law, but continuing to demonize and vilify our law enforcement. 0.91

00:26:58.000 You're going to see more incidents like this because people who are either brainwashed or lunatics are going to take matters into their own hands.

00:27:05.000 We've already seen these vehicles be routinely and perpetually weaponized against our law enforcement.

00:27:12.000 We have a 1,000% increase in assaults against law enforcement.

00:27:16.000 I mean, Ben, just last week alone, we had 10 of these vehicle rammings.

00:27:20.000 These vehicles are deadly weapons.

00:27:21.000 And one of our law enforcement officers could easily end up killed if we don't see a stop to this.

00:27:27.000 But I think as far as the political nature of this for the Democrats as well, obviously Minneapolis has been a flashpoint because of the massive amount of fraud that we've seen and that Homeland Security investigations are investigating.

00:27:41.000 And so I think that there is a part of this where they're trying to circle the wagons and really use this as a smokescreen so people stop talking about the fraud.

00:27:49.000 Now, Tricia, one of the things that really is sort of unnoted in all of this is the fact that the number of deportations from red states actually, in many cases, outnumbers the number of deportations from blue states.

00:27:59.000 The difference is that the blue state governors are trying to obstruct and sanctuary city mayors are trying to obstruct in these blue areas.

00:28:05.000 In red states, if they cooperate with ICE, then these operations tend to go off pretty easily without a hitch.

00:28:11.000 And then the deportations are actually pretty sizable.

00:28:13.000 So it is not as though the Trump administration is only targeting blue areas of blue states.

00:28:17.000 A huge number of deportations are happening in red states and red areas.

00:28:21.000 No, completely.

00:28:22.000 I mean, you look at Louisiana.

00:28:23.000 We have a large-scale operation in New Orleans where we have a governor who's cooperating with us.

00:28:28.000 We have law enforcement who's cooperating with us.

00:28:30.000 That makes it a lot safer, not just for our law enforcement, but for the public on the ground as well.

00:28:35.000 Because when things, when we start to have agitators, we start to have riders, people who are impeding operations or assaulting law enforcement, our law enforcement are able to call local and state officials for backup.

00:28:48.000 And that really makes sure that there aren't these dangerous situations that spin out of control.

00:28:53.000 But you also, a lot of your viewers will have seen in the news that we have surged CBP law enforcement on the ground there to Minneapolis.

00:29:01.000 A lot of that is so that we can make sure that we are quelling any violence that we see from these violent agitators.

00:29:07.000 We're seeing things get more and more coordinated.

00:29:10.000 More and more people coming on the ground and using tactics like vehicle rammings and assault against law enforcement.

00:29:17.000 So we still need to conduct operations in Minneapolis and other blue states around the country.

00:29:22.000 And so what we're going to do, we have to bring more men and women on the ground to ensure they can still conduct these operations, but do so in a safe and orderly fashion.

00:29:31.000 Well, that's Tricia McLaughlin.

00:29:32.000 She's Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs at the Department of Homeland Security.

00:29:35.000 Tricia, thanks so much for your time.

00:29:36.000 Really appreciate it.

00:29:37.000 Thank you, Ben.

00:29:38.000 Meanwhile, blue state governance in other places, not going well either.

00:29:43.000 According to an editorial at the New York Post, Kathy Hochul has signed off on a bill that they say will all but guarantee more child abuse in the state of New York in the name of fixing racial disparities in the child welfare system.

00:29:56.000 The new law bars callers to the city administration for child services from leaving tips anonymously, which sounds insane to me.

00:30:04.000 Why?

00:30:04.000 Because it turns out that they say that these tips, quote, drive inexcusable racial disparities that disproportionately impact black and brown families by leading to unnecessary interactions with child welfare services.

00:30:15.000 So they apparently are supposing that a bunch of KKK members are calling up the Administration for Children's Services and saying that the black guy down the hall is beating his kid and it's not true.

00:30:26.000 So now they don't want you to leave an anonymous tip.

00:30:28.000 You have to actually leave your name.

00:30:29.000 Advocates say that anonymity lets abusive exes and vindictive or racist landlords, neighbors, and so on use ACS to harass innocent parents with disruptive probes.

00:30:40.000 But the actual reality is that if you hand over your name and your phone number, even if there's a promise that your identity won't be revealed publicly, will not just discourage bogus tips.

00:30:50.000 It will discourage all tips.

00:30:52.000 Because even though they say they're not releasing it publicly, I mean, are you sure?

00:30:56.000 If there's a guy who you think is homicidal down the hall and you call in a tip and they make you give your name, are you sure he's never going to get that it was you who turned him in?

00:31:08.000 As Naomi Shafe Riley has pointed out in the New York Post, black children are more than three times as likely to die by abuse and neglect than their white peers.

00:31:15.000 Whatever the reasons for this, it means preventing abuse, of course, is going to disproportionately impact black families.

00:31:20.000 But again, this is when DEI is taken to its fullest extent, it can absolutely turn deadly.

00:31:27.000 Meanwhile, the Supreme Court of the United States took up yesterday a case from Idaho and West Virginia called Little versus Heacock.

00:31:36.000 It involves an adult biological male named Lindsey Heacocks who sought to compete against the women at Boise State University.

00:31:42.000 And another case in which a teenager, who is a boy who says he's a girl, wanted to compete against the girls.

00:31:49.000 The athletes' briefs to the justices dispute that trans players have an unqualified advantage over female competitors.

00:31:57.000 This is silly, of course.

00:32:00.000 It'll be interesting to see how the Supreme Court of the United States rules on this.

00:32:07.000 Ruling in favor of the states would make it so legislatures can make common sense rules on transgenderism in athletics. 0.99

00:32:14.000 More than half of states have already decided that they want to protect girls' sports. 0.98

00:32:18.000 The Supreme Court, I would think, almost guaranteed to rule in favor of these states and localities attempting to protect girls from boys playing against them on their sports teams.

00:32:30.000 And meanwhile, the situation in Iran continues to percolate.

00:32:34.000 A lot of rumors that the Iranian government is going to move over the course of the next couple of days in particular to completely shut down the protests, by which we mean mass murder everybody.

00:32:41.000 According to the Wall Street Journal, the White House is weighing Iran's nuclear talks offer.

00:32:48.000 This seems foolish to me.

00:32:51.000 What exactly is it that Tehran would offer that would be in any way credible?

00:32:56.000 What is the thing that would be in any way credible?

00:32:58.000 They have lied every step of the way.

00:33:00.000 They are quickly seeking to rebuild their missile and nuclear facilities.

00:33:03.000 What could they do at this point that would convince the United States and its allies that they don't have nuclear ambitions, that they aren't rebuilding their ballistic missile programs?

00:33:14.000 All Iran is attempting to do right now is delay for a couple of days while they kill everybody. 1.00

00:33:18.000 That is pretty obvious.

00:33:20.000 Unsurprisingly, there is some conflict inside, according to the Wall Street Journal, the top echelons of the administration.

00:33:26.000 President Trump is leaning toward authorizing fresh military strikes because his instincts are excellent when it comes to the Middle East, as he has proved over and over again.

00:33:32.000 The Abraham Accords and the 12-day war and the end of the Gaza War being excellent examples. 0.96

00:33:37.000 However, some senior administration aides, led by the vice president, are urging President Trump to try diplomacy before retaliating against Iran for killing protesters.

00:33:49.000 For how long?

00:33:51.000 For how long?

00:33:52.000 I mean, Iran could have called at any time.

00:33:55.000 Why precisely should you wait while they mow down the protesters by the hundreds or thousands instead of supporting the protesters?

00:34:03.000 What is the goal you seek?

00:34:05.000 And why does the timeline not?

00:34:06.000 What is the timeline here?

00:34:09.000 Speaking on Sunday to reporters on Air Force One, President Trump said that Tehran messaged Washington a day earlier that it was willing to enter negotiations over its years-long nuclear program.

00:34:18.000 President Trump said a meeting is being set up, but that the United States was still looking at very strong options he could authorize before discussions.

00:34:24.000 Well, if they wanted to negotiate, maybe a precondition for the negotiation would be don't murder your protesters and turn the internet back on.

00:34:31.000 How about that?

00:34:32.000 How about you want to negotiate?

00:34:33.000 You don't want the United States to, say, ship guns to the dissidents or to take your oil tankers or to perform any sort of military strike on IRGC facilities?

00:34:44.000 How about you open up the internet and stop killing people?

00:34:47.000 How about set that as a precondition to talks?

00:34:49.000 Not unconditional talks while you murder all of the people who are putting pressure on the regime.

00:34:56.000 President Trump supposedly will meet with senior aides to determine his approach.

00:34:59.000 The options could include ordering military strikes on regime sites or launching cyber attacks, approving new sanctions, boosting anti-regime accounts online.

00:35:09.000 Vice President Vance, according to the Wall Street Journal, while generally resistant to engaging in conflicts as opposed to whom, I think most people are not generally in favor of engaging in conflicts for their own sake, remains open to striking Iran, according to a person familiar with his thinking, believing the country is a threat to the United States.

00:35:28.000 I'm glad that he has changed his mind about that because obviously he took the opposite position originally with regard to striking Ford.

00:35:35.000 The United States does not currently have an aircraft carrier in the Middle East.

00:35:38.000 The United States could still use bombers, Air Force jet fighters, or naval assets to strike Iran. 0.91

00:35:44.000 Iranian officials are saying they might attack the Americans.

00:35:47.000 If they did that, that would be the end of the regime.

00:35:48.000 Bar none, end of story.

00:35:49.000 So they're not going to do that in any serious way.

00:35:52.000 Well, joining us on the line to discuss all of this is retired Vice Admiral Robert Harward, senior national security expert with first-hand experience inside Iran.

00:36:02.000 He actually grew up in Iran and was asked by President Trump to serve as national security advisor.

00:36:07.000 Vice Admiral, thanks so much for the time.

00:36:09.000 Really appreciate it.

00:36:10.000 Good to be with you, Ben.

00:36:11.000 Thank you.

00:36:12.000 So let's talk about what's going on in Iran.

00:36:14.000 Obviously, these are groundshaking moments that we're witnessing in Iran.

00:36:18.000 What's the serious possibility that the Iranian regime topples?

00:36:21.000 What would it take for that to happen?

00:36:24.000 Support of the Iranian people.

00:36:26.000 It's got to happen from within.

00:36:29.000 And they have, I think what's different now, we've seen snippets of this with the Green movement in 2009, the terrible protests after Amin, what she experienced.

00:36:44.000 But now you have the bazaars, the guys who run the markets, the guys who run the business, you have politicians, you have the everyday folks.

00:36:53.000 Everyone's behind it now.

00:36:55.000 So you have a mass you've not been before.

00:36:58.000 So the numbers are much different now.

00:37:01.000 Number two is, but we got to help enable them.

00:37:04.000 I think President Trump, in his statement that we stand behind and support the people of Iran, yet hold the regime accountable, is a big change as well.

00:37:17.000 So I think there are numerous steps and entities, not only the U.S., but other allies in the region, such as Israel and others, there are steps we can take to support the people of Iran and really bring this long overdue change to fruition.

00:37:35.000 So in my mind, it's not a if.

00:37:38.000 This is more when.

00:37:40.000 So I want to get to how a change would actually occur.

00:37:43.000 What would be necessary to push it in a second?

00:37:44.000 First, I want to point out that something really different is going on this time because the circumstances have changed.

00:37:50.000 Not only have the sanctions placed on the Iranian government by the Trump administration in term one and then reimposed in term two absolutely destroyed the Iranian economy.

00:37:58.000 I mean, the real is basically worthless.

00:38:01.000 I mean, it is a fraction, a fraction, a fraction of a cent of an American dollar at this point.

00:38:06.000 The economy there is so bad that they were actively talking about shifting the entire population of Tehran out of Tehran and not making it their capital anymore, thanks to water and power shortages.

00:38:15.000 But also the guarantee, the sort of quiet guarantee that the Mullahs made was that Iran would at least be a military powerhouse capable of spreading its tentacles all over the region.

00:38:25.000 Since October 7th, obviously, Iran's tentacles have been chopped off one by one by the IDF, culminating in that 12-day war, which itself culminated in President Trump ordering that incredible sortie against the Fordo nuclear facility with the B-2.

00:38:39.000 And so that means that just on a military level, it seems as though the population knows that the IRGC, when they're not shooting Iranian citizens, are a paper tiger abroad.

00:38:48.000 That's exactly right.

00:38:49.000 All the lies have been illustrated to be lies.

00:38:54.000 Not only are they failed militarily, they've failed governance.

00:38:58.000 They're not taking care of the Iranian people, and they've had to suffer under this regime for decades.

00:39:04.000 It's reached a real boiling point now where there is an opportunity for them to drive that change.

00:39:11.000 I couldn't agree with you more.

00:39:12.000 And I think as we came out of the war in Iraq, many administrations who were afraid to be engaged, did not want to use force.

00:39:21.000 They didn't want to be embroiled in the Middle East and saw this as a potential conflict.

00:39:26.000 So they used a policy of accommodation and appeasement.

00:39:29.000 You're back to an administration that understands realpolitik, you know, national security that's not driven by ideology, but by common sense.

00:39:39.000 And they're willing to use force to reinforce those national security interests.

00:39:44.000 And if you find an Iran government in Iran that provides for their people, wants to grow and prosper, as they did under the Shah in the 60s and 70s, it's saying not only the geopolitical contact of the region, but broader because our adversaries rely on them to be a part of their access of evil that has now been deteriorated and eradicated.

00:40:08.000 So, yeah, it changes everything, Ben.

00:40:11.000 So, when we look at the actual mechanics of how a change would be effectuated, obviously, if the Iranian people are able to gain control, for example, of military bases, take over the weaponry, then everything changes. 0.63

00:40:21.000 But one of the big questions, and this has happened multiple times, it's why I think a lot of people are still extremely worried as they should be, is that the IRGC just comes out of the shadows, turns off the internet, and shoots everybody.

00:40:31.000 And it seems as though that is what the IRGC is in the middle of engaging in right now.

00:40:35.000 The internet has been down for days on end at this point.

00:40:38.000 They're trying to turn Iran into a black box where nobody can find out what's happening. 0.90

00:40:41.000 President Trump has said that if there's evidence that there are mass shootings being carried out by the IRGC, he will act.

00:40:46.000 The question becomes: what sort of action would be sufficient to sort of allow for the final cracks to emerge in this edifice?

00:40:54.000 There's been some talk, for example, about going after the Iranian tankers that are in the Gulf of Aden, taking their oil ships, preventing them from being able to export.

00:41:03.000 The Iranian economy is already trashed. 1.00

00:41:05.000 And so, whether or not that makes a big difference is a question up for debate, I suppose.

00:41:10.000 If you were advising the president, what sort of action would you be looking at in order to help the protesters effectuate their goals here?

00:41:18.000 I think that's you've hit one of those real stats.

00:41:21.000 You know, not only have we sanctioned the oil, but if we embargo it, we stop it.

00:41:26.000 That's additional pressure on the regime.

00:41:28.000 I got to remember, I was in Frankfurt airport a few months ago, and I'm listening to an Iranian on his phone talking to his boss.

00:41:35.000 Hey, so I can't sell stuff because we're sanctioned and all.

00:41:39.000 And so when I got off the phone, I talked to him, I said, How bad is it?

00:41:41.000 Iranians said, Look, they're murdering any dissidents.

00:41:44.000 It's horrible.

00:41:45.000 But he said to me, and you'll like this one, Ben, this would never happen in the United States.

00:41:50.000 I go, why?

00:41:50.000 Because you guys have guns.

00:41:52.000 Your government can't.

00:41:54.000 So this Iranian knew our Second Amendment and knew why we have guns more than this. 1.00

00:41:59.000 So if I could get a million guns and 10 million rounds of ammo into the dissidents so that they're armed to fight the and it's not just the IRGC.

00:42:11.000 Don't forget that I think one of the most important components of this is the bashij.

00:42:16.000 The volunteer militia has been that kind of intel apparatus at the very tactical of pointing out and identifying.

00:42:24.000 So if we can get the bashij to flip and be part of the solution, not the problem, that presents a big threat to the IRGC and the military, a professional military, which is sometimes at odds with the IRGC. 0.87

00:42:39.000 How do we get them to flip?

00:42:40.000 So I think armed force going after these different entities of power that the regime has.

00:42:48.000 And so similar to where we disbanded the military in Iraq, we may here be able to use a professional military to go after the IRGC.

00:42:59.000 So, I think all those elements of power we can go after directly and indirectly.

00:43:05.000 I would do indirectly first, as opposed to any strikes.

00:43:09.000 And those strikes would be focused on those elements of power that have the least chance of flipping, being the IRGC, so to speak.

00:43:17.000 So, I think this administration has shown they're willing to do that.

00:43:20.000 The president does what he says he's going to do, and he's done that in Venezuela.

00:43:25.000 So, the people in Iran are hearing that.

00:43:28.000 And I think for the regime, it's a do or die.

00:43:30.000 So, how they leverage and build those building blocks and enhance that RIOS stat to crank up the heat is the solution here.

00:43:40.000 As you say, the president has said over and over and over this is a red line.

00:43:43.000 The red line clearly has been violated at this point and continues to be violated.

00:43:46.000 And so, the question again becomes what the president is willing and able to do.

00:43:50.000 Obviously, no one here, and I've said this a thousand times: no one is talking about an Iraq-style invasion of Iran.

00:43:56.000 There are a bunch of people out there who are lying and saying that, so that the United States does nothing because they present a false choice between an Iraq-style full-scale occupation of Iran, which is totally unnecessary since the population does not want the current regime.

00:44:07.000 And as you mentioned, there are people inside the military apparatus, not the IRGC, but the actual Iranian military, who are not in favor of the IRGC or the Malocracy.

00:44:17.000 So, these are apples and oranges comparisons.

00:44:19.000 One of the concerns that's been put forward has been the possibility of Iranian counter-strikes.

00:44:24.000 Iran, of course, has been threatening to fire a missile barrage at Israel.

00:44:27.000 They, of course, did that during the 12-day war to some minor effect, did some property damage, killed a few people, but not overwhelming for us by any stretch.

00:44:34.000 They're suggesting, of course, that they will fire directly at American bases in places presumably like Kuwait, possibly like Qatar or on the Iraqi border in Erebil.

00:44:42.000 You know, how much should we take those threats seriously?

00:44:46.000 And how significant would those threats be?

00:44:49.000 Look, we've seen them do those strikes in Israel, Qatar, and other places, and it's been very ineffective.

00:44:55.000 And so, to me, if they go to that step, that would justify our ability to strike and take out not only their military, the IRGC, if anything, we want to.

00:45:06.000 But so, that to me would represent their last straw, understanding that it's do or die for them.

00:45:13.000 And we've been very effective in countering those.

00:45:16.000 So, I think our capabilities far exceed them.

00:45:19.000 And the fact that they have no air defenses, so anyone can fly over the country.

00:45:25.000 We could strike at anything just illustrates, again, how vulnerable that is.

00:45:29.000 So, I think you always got to take credibility in this statement by understanding there's really not the bang they had before under those threats.

00:45:38.000 And again, I think that would really be the final straw that would end all this.

00:45:44.000 But again, if you want long-lasting security and stability in Iran, it has to come from within. 0.69

00:45:52.000 So, just like our adversaries for decades have been coming out at us asymmetrically because they know they did and would lose in direct military confrontation, I still think that's the situation here.

00:46:06.000 And we're best supported by helping the Iranian people bring this to closure.

00:46:11.000 So, Vice Admiral, you know, here's the $100,000 question.

00:46:15.000 What is the chance that this actually succeeds?

00:46:18.000 Obviously, this is not our first round here with major Iranian protests you saw them in 2009.

00:46:23.000 This current round actually really started in about 2022 and has kind of increased over the course of the last three years or so.

00:46:30.000 What are the real chances that the Iranian regime falls and how quickly would that happen?

00:46:36.000 I won't want a timeline, but yes, it's going to happen.

00:46:40.000 If we and our allies, Israel, support it, it will happen. 0.99

00:46:44.000 And in my opinion, we should not squander this opportunity.

00:46:48.000 We need to bring this to fruition.

00:46:50.000 It's long overdue, and it just changes everything.

00:46:54.000 So, we need to support the Iranian people and bring this to closure. 1.00

00:46:58.000 Well, it's Vice Admiral Robert Harward, national security expert with first-hand experience inside Iran.

00:47:04.000 Vice Admiral, thank you so much for your time and your insight.

00:47:06.000 Thanks, Ben.

00:47:07.000 Good to be with you.

00:47:08.000 Alrighty, folks, coming up, the show continues for our members.

00:47:11.000 Democrats seem to be changing their tune about Iran and Hamas.

00:47:14.000 Weird, weird.

00:47:15.000 Remember, in order to watch, you have to be a member.

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00:47:18.000 Check out for two months free on all annual plans.

00:47:20.000 Click that link in the description and join us.

00:47:23.000 What was it like, Merlin, to be alone with God?

00:47:32.000 Is that who you think I was alone with?

00:47:38.000 Maradin, I knew your father.

00:47:41.000 I am yet convinced that he was not of this world.

00:47:46.000 All men know of the great Talies.

00:47:49.000 Oh, my father, the gods should war for my soul.

00:47:53.000 Princess Garris, savior of our people.

00:47:59.000 I know what the Bull God offered you.

00:48:02.000 I was offered the same.

00:48:04.000 And there is a new pirate work in the world.

00:48:07.000 I've seen it.

00:48:09.000 A god who sacrifices what he loves for us.

00:48:12.000 We are each given only one life, Singer.

00:48:15.000 No, we're given another.

00:48:20.000 I learned of Yezu the Christ, and I have become his follower.

00:48:24.000 He's waiting on a miracle, and I think you can give him one.

00:48:27.000 Trust in Yezu. 0.87

00:48:29.000 He is the only hope for men like us.

00:48:32.000 Fate of Britain never rests in the hands of the Great Life.

00:48:35.000 Great light, great darkness.

00:48:37.000 Such things mattered to me then.

00:48:40.000 What matters to you now, Mistress of Lies?

00:48:44.000 You, nephew, the sword of the High King.

00:48:53.000 How many lives must be lost before you accept the power you were born to wield.

00:49:00.000 So clinging to the promises of a god who has abandoned you.

00:49:03.000 I cannot take up that sword again.

00:49:06.000 You know what you must do.

00:49:10.000 Great life, forgive me.

The Ben Shapiro Show - January 13, 2026

Trump Declares War…On Jerome Powell

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