The Ben Shapiro Show - What I Learned From Sitting With Gavin Newsom

00:00:00.000 Well, earlier this week, I sat down with Gavin Newsom.

00:00:02.000 I'm going to show you what happened when that happened because it was pretty spicy.

00:00:06.000 Plus, the latest on ICE, will the president invoke the Insurrection Act?

00:00:10.000 And in Iran, is action still imminent?

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00:00:47.000 Well, folks, on Tuesday, I sat down with California Governor Gavin Newsom on his podcast.

00:00:52.000 He does a podcast.

00:00:52.000 He sits down once every few weeks with somebody.

00:00:55.000 He invited me on, so I flew out to Sacramento and we sat in the governor's mansion in Sacramento and did what is about a two-hour podcast.

00:01:03.000 It is well worth the listening.

00:01:04.000 You'll hear us go through a number of topics.

00:01:06.000 It was a sort of fascinating experience, not only because Governor Newsom, of course, is the governor of the most populous state in the union, a state that I left back in 2020 with my company and with my family, thanks to what I believe to be serious misgovernance in California.

00:01:19.000 It's fascinating because right now, according to the polling data, it is very likely that Newsom will be the Democrats nominee in 2028.

00:01:26.000 When you look at the potential field of Democratic nominees right now, I've said before I think AOC is underrated as a possible nominee.

00:01:35.000 She's likely to do well in places like Iowa and New Hampshire.

00:01:38.000 The problem is once you move to the South, AOC's numbers start to dwindle.

00:01:42.000 And she's not going to win California if Newsom is in the field.

00:01:45.000 Kamala Harris right now in the polling data for 2028 is a placeholder. 0.89

00:01:49.000 Just like every other election of my lifetime, after somebody loses, they remain the quote-unquote frontrunner for the nomination for the next election cycle for a short period of time.

00:01:59.000 And let's just say it's a rarity for somebody to come back the way that President Trump actually did in 2024 and then win a nomination after losing a presidential race.

00:02:07.000 Typically, nominees who lose go away.

00:02:10.000 Mitt Romney in 2013, if you look at the early polling, would probably have been the frontrunner for 2016, but obviously he was nowhere close to the nomination by the time we hit the next election cycle.

00:02:20.000 So it ain't going to be Kamala Harris on the Democratic side of the aisle. 1.00

00:02:23.000 Newsom has heavy fundraising power.

00:02:26.000 He's obviously a governor of a very populist state.

00:02:28.000 He has positioned himself as the quote-unquote anti-Trump in the field.

00:02:32.000 And he's done that by being very, very loud on social media.

00:02:36.000 And so it was fascinating to sit down with him, ask him some pretty pointed questions about governance in California and where he thinks the country is going.

00:02:42.000 And I think the entire discussion is worth listening to or watching.

00:02:47.000 A few things about Governor Newsom.

00:02:49.000 First of all, in person, very personable guy for sure.

00:02:52.000 Most politicians are, by the way, large number of politicians, very good in person.

00:02:56.000 Gavin Newsom is very quick on his feet.

00:02:58.000 He's a person who is going to spend his time, I would imagine, trying to avoid serious charges about the state of California.

00:03:06.000 And he knows his own policy record and he knows where the holes are.

00:03:09.000 And so he's pretty good at sticking and moving with regards to the holes in those policies.

00:03:14.000 We'll discuss that in a moment.

00:03:16.000 The biggest problem for Gavin Newsom is a problem for the Democratic Party.

00:03:19.000 In order for him to appeal to the broad middle of the electorate, he is going to have to jettison some core Democratic positions that are just unpopular with the American people.

00:03:27.000 And so I think one of the reasons that Governor Newsom decided that he was going to have me on his show was specifically to do that, to make overtures to the middle.

00:03:34.000 Now, you can decide for yourself how genuine you think those overtures are.

00:03:37.000 You can decide whether you think the real Gavin Newsom is the moderate or whether you think the real Gavin Newsom is the former San Francisco mayor who has been radical rhetorically for a large part of his career.

00:03:48.000 Or maybe there is no real Gavin Newsom, right?

00:03:50.000 These are sort of the questions you have to ask about any politician.

00:03:53.000 Anybody who sits down in front of you, who wants to win your vote, is a person who could be masquerading as a moderate, could be masquerading as an extremist, could be just masquerading all the time, right?

00:04:04.000 You just don't know.

00:04:06.000 And so I'm going to tell you, you should watch that show and you should make your own decisions about Gavin Newsome.

00:04:10.000 We're going to play some of the clips from the show, largely because I think it demonstrates the difficulty that Democrats have moving forward as a party.

00:04:18.000 Everything that Newsom said that sounds good is a moderate to Republican position.

00:04:23.000 Everything he said that I think sounds not particularly good is a Democrat radical position that I don't think holds up under scrutiny.

00:04:30.000 And so the question is going to be whether the base of the Democratic Party allows Gavin Newsom to become the nominee, even if they perceive that he is semi-moderate.

00:04:40.000 Now, again, in policy, he's not particularly moderate.

00:04:42.000 If you look at California, California is very immoderate in terms of its spending, in terms of its social policy around, for example, the trans issues, around things like DEI or immigration.

00:04:53.000 Now, Gavin Newsom will tell you that his record has been more moderate than the actual state of California.

00:04:58.000 And very typically, the more extreme policies he will attribute to the local officials in his state.

00:05:06.000 That's sort of his typical move here.

00:05:09.000 In fact, this is something that I asked him about because I do think that it is indicative of a way that politicians very frequently will escape their own records.

00:05:18.000 Instead of you judging them on their output, you're supposed to judge them on their intent and then they can sort of blame everybody else for failure to achieve what they quote unquote wanted to achieve.

00:05:28.000 So, for example, there was one point where I was questioning Governor Newsom about the fact that he had promised to build millions of housing units in California.

00:05:36.000 I was really grilling him on the fact that housing prices in California are exorbitant at this moment in time, and they have been for quite a while.

00:05:44.000 And I got him to agree that overpromising and under delivering is a bad road to make policy.

00:05:52.000 And they usually are talking about using the power of government in order to facilitate and make that change happen, particularly on the Democratic side of the aisle.

00:06:00.000 And it seems to me that that is a recipe for disaster for the American body politic, because if you make promises that cannot be fulfilled, because the system does not allow for it to be fulfilled, people inherently end up frustrated.

00:06:12.000 And, you know, I have relatives who still live in the state of California.

00:06:15.000 I visit it routinely, and they're making a very good living.

00:06:18.000 I have a sister-in-law and brother-in-law who live in LA.

00:06:21.000 They make a combined excellent living, and they're barely making their mortgage.

00:06:25.000 And the housing costs are too high.

00:06:27.000 The cost of living is too high.

00:06:29.000 I believe the poverty rates in California on a cost-adjusted basis are some of the highest in the nation.

00:06:34.000 Right there with Florida.

00:06:35.000 Correct.

00:06:35.000 When you look at the supplemental poverty index, when you look at poverty broadly, you define it's slightly above average.

00:06:40.000 Supplemental Florida and California, right?

00:06:42.000 If you're looking at real estate costs in particular are extraordinary in the state of California.

00:06:47.000 As you say, you're trying to remove regulations.

00:06:48.000 But the problem is that unless we are willing to recognize a fundamental reality, which is that the relationship of the American people with their government needs to change.

00:07:02.000 And so if you listen to him there, he sounds like a moderate, right?

00:07:05.000 Don't overpromise.

00:07:06.000 Don't underdeliver.

00:07:07.000 Government should probably promise to do less. 0.99

00:07:11.000 I mean, that sounds like a Republican policy.

00:07:13.000 And herein lies the problem for Governor Newsom and for the Democratic Party.

00:07:17.000 The stuff that sounds good is him moving away from the rhetorical and policy radicalism Democrats have embraced.

00:07:23.000 More on this in a moment.

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00:09:48.000 So there were multiple times in the interview that we did in which I pressed him on a particular radical Democrat policy and he disavowed it.

00:09:55.000 So this happened most obviously with regard to immigration and customs enforcement.

00:09:59.000 So I asked him about ICE because obviously ICE has been at the top of the news.

00:10:02.000 And as we've talked about on the show, the governor's press office put out a statement calling what happened in Minneapolis with regard to Renee Goode, the shooting of Renee Goode, as state-sponsored terrorism.

00:10:12.000 And the governor immediately disavowed his own press office.

00:10:16.000 One was a narrative that was immediately pushed by the Trump administration and Secretary of Homeland Security, Christine Noam, that she was a domestic terrorist who was attempting to run over officers with her car and was legitimately trying, not just this officer, but multiple officers.

00:10:29.000 That was the original statement.

00:10:31.000 I said at the time, I thought that was untrue.

00:10:33.000 And then your press office tweeted out that it was state-sponsored terrorism, which, I mean, governor, I just have to ask you about that.

00:10:41.000 That sort of thing makes our politics worse.

00:10:44.000 Yeah.

00:10:44.000 I mean, it does.

00:10:45.000 And our ICE officers obviously are not terrorists.

00:10:48.000 A tragic situation is not state-sponsored terrorism.

00:10:50.000 Yeah, I think that's fair.

00:10:53.000 Okay.

00:10:54.000 So again, they put out the rhetorically radical stuff and then they back off of it.

00:10:59.000 I also asked him about the sort of defund ICE movement that's gained all sorts of credibility in left-wing circles in the aftermath of Renee Good's shooting.

00:11:06.000 And here was Gavin Newsom.

00:11:08.000 AOC said this week that ICE should be abolished.

00:11:10.000 You disagree?

00:11:11.000 Oh, I disagree when I think a candidate for president by the name of Harris said that in the last campaign.

00:11:18.000 I was, I remember being on Chris Hayes hours later saying, I think that's a mistake.

00:11:18.000 I came out.

00:11:22.000 So absolutely.

00:11:24.000 He sounds like a moderate there.

00:11:26.000 I asked Gavin Newsom about why the Democratic Party hasn't done more speaking about, for example, the Iranian regime.

00:11:32.000 And he came out, he said the Democratic Party should do more with regard to the Iranian regime.

00:11:37.000 Because right now, for example, where are the members of the Democratic Party protesting and wearing pins for the protesters in Iran who are getting mowed down, maybe by the tens of thousands this week?

00:11:48.000 Well, I know where I am.

00:11:49.000 put out a pretty clear statement this week.

00:11:51.000 I'd like to see more Democrats.

00:11:53.000 Yeah, I don't disagree with you.

00:11:54.000 And by the way, I also thought it was, I thought it was the right thing to do, that strike.

00:11:57.000 And I thought it was unbelievably effective and efficient and had no problem saying that during the strike, didn't wait for the outcome.

00:12:06.000 So yeah, I marched to a beat of a little bit of a different drum, a little bit more nuance here.

00:12:11.000 But there is, look, everything's so black and white.

00:12:14.000 It's just, there's nuance here.

00:12:17.000 Again, you can see him attempting to move to the middle on all of these issues.

00:12:21.000 Same thing with regard to the claim by so many Democrats, including Scott Weiner, who is the person now running for Nancy Pelosi's seat in San Francisco that Israel committed a genocide, which is factually untrue.

00:12:32.000 I quizzed the governor on that.

00:12:34.000 And again, he said, I don't think that's true either.

00:12:36.000 And then he sort of started to get, you know, I would say a little bit slippery about why he won't just come out and condemn Democrats who are telling that lie.

00:12:45.000 Democrats have now been dragged into this conversation, some drag, some run with, you know, flags waving into the conversation.

00:12:53.000 The definition of genocide.

00:12:54.000 Yes.

00:12:54.000 Yeah.

00:12:54.000 I mean, look, Israel did not commit a genocide in Gaza.

00:12:57.000 There is no standard by which Israel committed a genocide in Gaza.

00:13:00.000 It's just on a factual level.

00:13:01.000 Just as a legal and factual level.

00:13:03.000 Yeah.

00:13:03.000 Yes.

00:13:04.000 What is your opinion of this?

00:13:06.000 My opinion is I understand the tendency for people to make that, to assert that on the basis of the images and the proportionality.

00:13:21.000 It doesn't mean genocide.

00:13:22.000 No, no.

00:13:23.000 And by the way, I agree with you. 0.89

00:13:24.000 And international and internationality doesn't mean that if you kill my child and I then kill seven criminals, that I've been disproportionate.

00:13:32.000 I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think the but I understand that tendency on the basis of trying to reconcile the proportionate nature of how the war was ultimately conducted.

00:13:46.000 Why do you feel the need to create a permission structure for that sort of stuff?

00:13:52.000 I mean, meaning it's not true.

00:13:55.000 Why not just say it's not true?

00:13:56.000 Yeah, look, I don't know the definition or I don't know the legal threshold.

00:13:59.000 That's not my opinion.

00:14:00.000 So I don't share that opinion as it relates to genocide.

00:14:04.000 I do not agree with that notion.

00:14:07.000 Again, watch as he tries, again, to avoid the rhetorical complications of endorsing the radical side of his own party.

00:14:14.000 Same thing with regard to the trans issue.

00:14:16.000 I grilled him on why he believes, apparently, that a boy can become a girl, or does he believe that a boy can become a girl?

00:14:22.000 Why has the state of California taken a wide variety of actions to quote unquote protect boys becoming girls, which is to say, in my opinion, be predatory toward children who are suffering from gender dysphoria and hormonally or surgically mutilate them.

00:14:39.000 And he really did not have a good answer on this either.

00:14:41.000 Again, this is the problem for the Democratic Party on these issues, that a good Democratic candidate is going to make the radical issues secondary or ignore them.

00:14:48.000 But in doing so, he or she is going to piss off his own party.

00:14:52.000 Because if you look at X today, X is filled with people on the left who are livid with Gavin Newsom for not endorsing every radical left position.

00:15:00.000 Here is Gavin Newsom not being able to answer the question on trans, presumably for political reasons.

00:15:05.000 Since, again, we all know the biological realities here.

00:15:09.000 But this idea that people are going to public schools and coming back, having surgeries and coming back the next day is absurd.

00:15:17.000 But there are certainly cases in which kids are being quote unquote socially transitioned at school without parents knowing about it.

00:15:22.000 I know some of the parents to whom this has happened.

00:15:24.000 I mean, this is the fundamental question that lies at the root of all of this is the question that you're not wanting to answer, which is whether boys can become girls.

00:15:34.000 Yeah, I just, well, I think for the grace of God.

00:15:37.000 Yeah.

00:15:38.000 I mean, I appreciate the sympathy.

00:15:39.000 I also feel terrible for listen, anybody who's suffering with any sort of Generations for time immemorial.

00:15:49.000 Yeah, again, just trying to avoid the question.

00:15:52.000 So, Gavin Newsom wants to be a moderate, right?

00:15:55.000 At least he wants to play moderate when it comes to running in a general election, except when it comes to a couple of issues.

00:16:02.000 One of them, of course, is Trump.

00:16:03.000 And this is, I think, Gavin Newsome's secret sauce as a candidate is that he, in person, and again, rhetorically, when you're speaking with people like me, he appears to be a moderate or move toward moderation.

00:16:14.000 You can believe him or not believe him.

00:16:16.000 I'm just presenting you with what he was saying to me on camera.

00:16:19.000 And then there is the stuff where he does not want to appear moderate, and that's particularly on Trump.

00:16:24.000 So, Democrats seem to believe that if they campaign against Trump in 2028, that that will be enough.

00:16:29.000 And listen, we can say that that's crazy and that may that won't work.

00:16:32.000 But I'm old enough to remember when Democrats campaigned against George W. Bush in 2008, right?

00:16:37.000 He was on his way out, and they took George Bush and they hung him over John McCain, who is a large-scale opponent of Bush in a wide variety of matters, and tried to paint McCain as his natural heir.

00:16:48.000 Well, I assume that Gavin Newsom will do the same thing with JD Vance, should JD Vance be the nominee.

00:16:52.000 And so I pushed Gavin Newsom on the idea that he really believes the 2028 election is in danger of being stolen or overthrown.

00:16:59.000 I don't believe that he believes that because otherwise, why would he be running if he truly believes that our elections are on the precipice of being overthrown?

00:17:06.000 By the way, I don't like that on the right, and I don't like it on the left.

00:17:08.000 I've been saying this for years.

00:17:09.000 I've been perfectly consistent in this position, as with many of my other positions.

00:17:13.000 Here was the exchange.

00:17:16.000 If you go on Stephen Colbert and say you're worried there won't be a legit election in 2028, but I feel that.

00:17:21.000 I mean, if I believe that.

00:17:22.000 Do you really believe that?

00:17:23.000 I really believe that.

00:17:24.000 But then why are you running?

00:17:25.000 Or why would you consider it?

00:17:27.000 I want to make sure those, because we have agency, we can shape the future.

00:17:30.000 It's not something to experience.

00:17:31.000 But I didn't believe it when President Trump said.

00:17:33.000 It's what President Trump said in 2022.

00:17:34.000 I think he wants, I believe, and he tries to.

00:17:37.000 Do you truly believe that President Trump is going to try to run in 2028?

00:17:39.000 No, I believe that he'll try to wire the outcome in 2028.

00:17:42.000 I really don't.

00:17:42.000 See, this sort of stuff is very dangerous to me.

00:17:46.000 So again, this is where he's sticking his flag.

00:17:46.000 Okay.

00:17:48.000 He's sticking his flag on the left with Trump is going to steal the election. 0.99

00:17:52.000 The Republicans are just so terrible.

00:17:54.000 And then on the other hand, he's sort of playing footsie with the middle. 0.86

00:17:58.000 And then there is the third prong of Newsome, which, of course, is his record.

00:18:01.000 Now, as somebody who left his state and took my family and took our company and moved it and who visits the state pretty frequently and has to hear about the difficulties of being a police officer in LAPD or the difficulties of making a living in Los Angeles or San Francisco.

00:18:17.000 I have opinions on how things work in California since I lived my entire life there and watched quality of life radically degrade over the course of decades.

00:18:27.000 Gavin Newsom's position seems to be that his policies are better than other Republican states.

00:18:34.000 He very often will not defend them on their own merits.

00:18:36.000 Instead, what he will say is it's better than Louisiana or something.

00:18:40.000 He tried to do this with regard to his tax policy.

00:18:42.000 And I sort of said, well, I'm here talking to you, not to the governor of Louisiana, but okay.

00:18:49.000 About radically lowering the income tax rates in the state.

00:18:51.000 Well, California has tax.

00:18:54.000 I mean, there's 16 states right now.

00:18:55.000 Let's talk about those 16 states.

00:18:57.000 That's the point.

00:18:57.000 Why don't we talk about California?

00:18:58.000 Well, I'm going to say that tax their low-wage earners more than California taxes its high-wage earners.

00:19:02.000 Let's talk about lowering those tax rates in those 16 states.

00:19:07.000 Now, what he's talking about, again, he doesn't want to talk about California.

00:19:10.000 He wants to talk about the fact that if you go to some red states that don't have a state income tax, but they do have sales tax and excise tax, that it's possible that if you're a low-income earner, you're paying a quote-unquote higher percentage of your income than somebody who is a high earner in, say, Florida.

00:19:27.000 And there's truth to that.

00:19:28.000 So his brag is that the state income tax in California is very, very progressive.

00:19:33.000 That's a brag for him.

00:19:35.000 The question is, what is the goal of tax policy?

00:19:37.000 Is the goal of tax policy, quote-unquote, fairness?

00:19:40.000 Because by that metric, you're going to have to establish when does a tax structure become quote unquote fair?

00:19:45.000 When are the rich paying enough and all the rest?

00:19:49.000 Or is the goal of a tax structure a practical question?

00:19:53.000 Meaning, is the goal of taxes to cover revenue for public services without killing the innovation and the job growth?

00:20:01.000 Because listen, if the goal is just to show that you're fair, it's very easy to do Governor Newsom's routine here.

00:20:07.000 You say, hey, look, the rich people are paying a lot of money and the poor people are paying no money.

00:20:10.000 Isn't that fair?

00:20:11.000 The problem is that public policy is designed to create better quality of life, not to make you feel better in your innards.

00:20:18.000 And so when you look at the state of California right now, rich people who create the jobs, okay, the lie that the poor create jobs in the United States or anywhere else on earth, it is and always has been a lie, which is why the poorest countries generally have the fewest productive jobs.

00:20:33.000 It is people who innovate, invest, build, who end up creating the mechanisms by which everybody else's life gets better and they get paid.

00:20:42.000 That doesn't mean that labor isn't an element of that.

00:20:44.000 It means that labor is only one element of that, not the only element of that.

00:20:51.000 So to take, for example, California and Florida, the state to which I moved, and he loves targeting Florida, of course, because he sees Governor DeSantis as a possible counter to him.

00:21:00.000 They had a sort of interesting debate a while back, I believe on CNN, Newsom and DeSantis, which kind of ended in a tie, I would say.

00:21:08.000 The private sector job growth in Florida since 2019 has been 10.6% versus 4.8% for California.

00:21:15.000 And a huge percentage of that private sector job growth in California has been in the tech sector, large swaths of which are now seeking to relocate because of the tax and regulatory structure in California.

00:21:26.000 So you can have a fair tax structure.

00:21:27.000 You could be fully communist and have, quote unquote, the fairest tax structure where everybody's income belongs to the government and they redistribute it according to need, right?

00:21:35.000 That's the communist way.

00:21:37.000 It turns out not only is it not fair, because again, how you define fairness is the question.

00:21:42.000 The way I define fairness is people get to keep the products of their labor that people are allowed to achieve in consonance with their skill set and efforts.

00:21:52.000 That is fairness to me.

00:21:54.000 What people like Gavin Newsom, I think, mean by fair is that we can look at outcomes and determine whether fairness has been achieved.

00:22:01.000 If we don't all make the same amount of money, obviously things are unfair.

00:22:05.000 But the goal of tax policy is presumably to create a thriving state.

00:22:10.000 Job growth in California is half that in terms of percentage in the private sector of that in California.

00:22:16.000 Total real GDP growth since 2019 has been somewhere on the average of 2.3% every year.

00:22:26.000 In Florida, it's been double that, like 4.6%.

00:22:31.000 California had a major population decline.

00:22:35.000 It was all domestic exodus. 0.83

00:22:36.000 It was people who lived in California, like me and my family, moving out.

00:22:40.000 And then the reverse of that, which I did discuss with him on his show, was achieved by in-migration from other countries.

00:22:48.000 So from Mexico, from China, from other places.

00:22:52.000 I mean, if you have a giant outmigration of your citizens and people from other countries are coming in, that is not a great sort of indicator of how well you are being governed for sure.

00:23:02.000 In 2024, for example, California lost 239,000 residents to domestic migration, but gained 361,000 international immigrants.

00:23:10.000 Is that an indicator of economic health, of lifestyle health in the state of California?

00:23:15.000 One of the things he tried to say about population in our interview was the governor tried to claim that, well, on a per capita basis, more people left Florida to go to California than left California to go to Florida.

00:23:25.000 You can't use per capita for this.

00:23:27.000 And I'll give you a very basic mathematical example.

00:23:30.000 Let's say that you have a country with two people, and then you have another country with 100 people.

00:23:34.000 And let's say that 40 of those 100 people go to the tiny country.

00:23:38.000 And let's say that of the original two people in the small country, one of them goes to the more populous country.

00:23:46.000 Well, if you did that on a per capita basis and the smaller country per capita sent more citizens than the large country sent to the small country, but that makes no sense.

00:23:54.000 If you're a country with 100 people and 40 of them leave to go to a smaller place and one of the two people in the smaller place leaves to go to the bigger place, why would you possibly then make the case that the smaller place is obviously more poorly governed because it's jettisoning people?

00:24:11.000 That doesn't make any sense.

00:24:12.000 There's certain statistics. 1.00

00:24:13.000 This is how you play stupid games with statistics. 0.99

00:24:15.000 Certain statistics ought to be measured per capita. 0.99

00:24:17.000 Certain statistics ought not be measured per capita, pretty obviously.

00:24:22.000 The same thing is true with regard to immigration policy.

00:24:24.000 So we got into a tete a tete about ICE and about immigration policy, sanctuary city policy.

00:24:29.000 He made the case that sanctuary city policy makes cities safer.

00:24:33.000 You can make a case that sanctuary cities policies, they don't additionally add to criminality over baseline.

00:24:42.000 You could theoretically make that case.

00:24:44.000 I mean, of course, every crime that's then committed by an illegal immigrant in your city, if that illegal immigrant goes there because of the sanctuary city policies, is one more crime than would have otherwise been committed. 0.93

00:24:55.000 But the case that he was making is that people don't even move into areas because of their sanctuary city policies, which I find hard to believe.

00:25:01.000 I find it hard to believe that if you have a choice right now under the Trump administration of moving to a sanctuary city area where the local government will not coordinate with the federal government or moving into a red area where the local government absolutely will coordinate with the federal government, that you're going to be more comfortable moving to that redder area.

00:25:19.000 I asked him about California's sanctuary city policies and its sanctuary state policies, actually.

00:25:24.000 And he suggested that actually California does a wonderful job of cooperating with ICE, which I think ICE might have some questions about this.

00:25:31.000 You're pragmatic.

00:25:32.000 You talk about your pragmatism all the time.

00:25:34.000 Wouldn't best policy be to cooperate with ICE in the vast majority of cases.

00:25:38.000 So instead of ICE going to, as you say, hospitals and churches to pick people up, they'd be going to jailhouses to pick up.

00:25:43.000 That's exactly what they do in California.

00:25:44.000 And we have over 10,000 that I've cooperated with since I've been governor of California.

00:25:48.000 We work very directly with ICE as it relates to CDCR, our state prison.

00:25:54.000 California has cooperated with more ICE transfers probably than any other state in the country.

00:25:59.000 And I vetoed multiple pieces of legislation that have come from my legislature to stop the ability for the state of California to do that.

00:26:06.000 So when it comes to the issues of violent criminals, when it comes to felons, people that are being released from the largest state system in the United States of America, California cooperates with ICE.

00:26:19.000 It's true for violent criminals.

00:26:20.000 It is not true for people who say, let's say you've avoided 100 traffic tickets, you get arrested.

00:26:24.000 You are not then reported to ICE.

00:26:26.000 In fact, the law in the state of California is that police are not supposed to question individuals about their immigration status.

00:26:32.000 State and local funds cannot be used to investigate, detain, or arrest people for immigration violations because that's federal law.

00:26:38.000 And local police are not supposed to proactively share non-public information like home addresses.

00:26:43.000 California will not release information about individuals unless they have been convicted of specific violent crimes, which means ICE has to ramp up their own surveillance efforts.

00:26:51.000 And certain localities have been made ICE-free zones, which ban ICE from using any city-owned property as staging areas, which means that ICE then has to use private or federal sites only.

00:27:00.000 Again, if the goal is to make your state into a sanctuary state, obviously that has some impact.

00:27:05.000 Okay, the whole episode, I think, is really interesting.

00:27:09.000 Again, credit to Governor Newsom for having me on.

00:27:12.000 Credit to him for actually having a pretty open and I would say fairly both cordial and combative conversation about some of the key issues facing the country.

00:27:20.000 Now, I've talked about the problems facing the Democratic Party.

00:27:22.000 The problems facing the Democratic Party are pretty obvious.

00:27:24.000 There's a big divide between their radical base and the moderation they're going to need in order to win.

00:27:30.000 Gavin Newsom wants to campaign as the guy who cooperates with ICE, as the guy who wants to be at least moderate on the trans issue, secondary on the trans issue, who wants to be fairly moderate on foreign policy, who does not want to engage in a lot of the same sort of rhetorical radicalism of his own party.

00:27:47.000 Will the base allow him to do that?

00:27:48.000 I think probably not.

00:27:49.000 He's been able to hide it so far by attacking Trump.

00:27:53.000 I'm not sure how long that's going to last.

00:27:55.000 So that's one problem for him.

00:27:57.000 And of course, the other problem is his record in California.

00:28:00.000 There are going to be a lot of sort of Willie Horton type ads that come out against Governor Newsom as he runs for the presidency.

00:28:06.000 Now, the problem for the Republicans, Gavin Newsom is a very talented guy.

00:28:09.000 I don't think there's any doubt when you watch that episode that he is good on his feet, that he is slippery when he needs to be, that he does a convincing imitation of a pro-capitalism moderate, if you think that's an imitation.

00:28:21.000 Maybe that's the real Gavin Newsom, and he's had to slather it over with radicalism to get where he wants to go.

00:28:25.000 I don't know.

00:28:26.000 I don't know the answer to that.

00:28:28.000 But anybody who thinks that Republicans are going to waltz to 2028, I do not think they will waltz to 2028.

00:28:34.000 I don't think Democrats are going to waltz to 2028.

00:28:37.000 It's going to be a dogfight.

00:28:39.000 And there are problems inside both parties, obviously.

00:28:42.000 The Republican Party is pretty divided on some major issues ranging from the involvement of the state in economics to foreign policy.

00:28:49.000 The record of whoever is the Republican nominee is going to come up for scrutiny also.

00:28:53.000 So here's what I would urge.

00:28:55.000 For both parties, maybe you ought to take a look at what the American people want.

00:29:01.000 Maybe you ought to take a look at the closeness of every American election for the last 12 years and think to yourself, maybe if I tacked toward the middle, maybe what Americans really just want is normalcy.

00:29:17.000 Now, maybe the primary structure prevents normalcy from actually taking the floor.

00:29:22.000 But as we are seeing from the polling data, more and more Americans are identifying as independent.

00:29:26.000 And the reason for that is because all they want is return to normalcy.

00:29:28.000 I think that the reason President Trump won in 2024 is he was by far the most normie candidate by far.

00:29:34.000 Joe Biden was not a normie candidate.

00:29:36.000 He was dead and he was radical.

00:29:38.000 Kamala Harris was not a normie candidate.

00:29:40.000 She was an empty suit and she was radical.

00:29:42.000 Donald Trump took the middle position on nearly every issue.

00:29:46.000 Will Republicans do that or will they be so high on their own supply that they go rhetorically radical over and over and over for no apparent reason while pursuing mainstream policy?

00:29:58.000 That's going to be the big battle of 2028.

00:30:01.000 Meanwhile, President Trump is threatening to deploy more federal forces to Minneapolis given the amount of unrest over there.

00:30:08.000 According to the Washington Post, President Trump threatened to invoke the Insurrection Act in Minnesota on Thursday, raising the prospect of sending U.S. troops into Minneapolis, despite opposition from state and local leaders to quell protests over a recent federal immigration enforcement surge.

00:30:21.000 So not just protests, by the way.

00:30:22.000 Some of these have involved actually attacking ICE vehicles.

00:30:25.000 We had video yesterday on the show of people attempting to break into a gun box that was in the back of an ICE vehicle.

00:30:31.000 Meanwhile, Christy Noam at DHS has blamed another Minneapolis shooting on Tim Walz, the governor, and Jacob Fry, the mayor of Minneapolis.

00:30:40.000 That shooting, of course, occurred when a person that ICE was trying to take into custody apparently attacked ICE officers along with a couple of others with shovels.

00:30:48.000 Here's what she had to say.

00:30:51.000 You know, this kind of violence is perpetuated by what we hear the governor saying, what we hear the mayor in Minneapolis saying, and their irresponsibility is extremely reckless.

00:31:01.000 Governor Tim Walz has my phone number.

00:31:03.000 I have called him and talked to him and said, listen, you let your city burn down in 2020.

00:31:08.000 Don't do it again.

00:31:09.000 President Trump wants to keep everybody safe.

00:31:11.000 We're enforcing federal law.

00:31:13.000 We're protecting every single American.

00:31:15.000 Work with us.

00:31:16.000 I want to remind you that Minneapolis itself, under the mayor's leadership and the governor's leadership, released almost 500 criminals out onto the streets rather than bring them to justice and turn them over to federal authorities.

00:31:27.000 They know they're releasing murderers and drug traffickers on the streets of Minneapolis.

00:31:32.000 We're out there making sure they don't harm American citizens, and we're getting attacked while we do it.

00:31:37.000 But we're going to continue to do our work and do what's right because it's what President Trump promised the American people.

00:31:43.000 Now, Noam was asked if the president of the United States would invoke the Insurrection Act.

00:31:47.000 She said, I don't know what he's going to do at this point.

00:31:50.000 Do you think that there needs to be an Insurrection Act invoked?

00:31:53.000 Oh, I think that the President has that opportunity in the future.

00:31:56.000 It's his constitutional right, and it's up to him if he wants to utilize it.

00:32:01.000 I don't know.

00:32:03.000 Would it lead to more deadly killings in Minnesota if the Insurrection Act is invoked?

00:32:07.000 If anything doesn't change with Governor Walls, I don't anticipate that the streets will get any safer.

00:32:16.000 Democrats in a variety of states are planning to introduce bills allowing residents to sue federal agents for violating their Fourth Amendment rights against unlawful search and seizure.

00:32:24.000 According to Fox News, New Jersey Democrats are trying to establish the state as a sanctuary state.

00:32:29.000 Governor Walls, for his part in Minnesota, put out a statement: quote, I'm making a direct appeal to the president.

00:32:33.000 Let's turn the temperature down, stop this campaign of retribution.

00:32:37.000 This is not who we are.

00:32:38.000 And an appeal to Minnesotans, I know this is scary.

00:32:40.000 We can, we must speak out loudly, urgently, but also peacefully.

00:32:43.000 We cannot fan the flames of chaos.

00:32:45.000 That's what he wants.

00:32:46.000 Noah Rothman has a good piece over at National Review, pointing out the game that Tim Walz is playing.

00:32:51.000 Quote, he called on state residents to protest loudly, urgently, but also peacefully, and to peacefully film ICE agents, as though repeating the word peacefully negates the danger that protesters put themselves in when they insert themselves between armed law enforcement officers and their targets of arrest.

00:33:05.000 Indeed, he set out to convince the passionate and impressionable they'd been deputized in the campaign of resistance he envisions by the state.

00:33:11.000 What Walls is advising his citizens to do is likely to result in more violence and potentially more death.

00:33:16.000 That, of course, is exactly right.

00:33:19.000 Stephen Miller, the most passionate of the president's senior advisors when it comes to a wide variety of issues, including immigration, told Fox News, what we are watching right now is clearly an insurgency that would require the Insurrection Act.

00:33:32.000 You only have to read their own words and hear their own words and judge their own conduct to understand that this is clearly an insurgency against the federal government.

00:33:43.000 They are describing the federal government as an occupying force.

00:33:50.000 Okay, the ICE chief, Todd Lyons, similarly said, we're not watching peaceful protests in Minnesota anymore.

00:33:57.000 Yeah, Martha, without getting too much into the investigation, it was a federal vehicle.

00:34:01.000 But just to the point, that is not peaceful protesting.

00:34:04.000 That's not what the governor, that's not what the mayor is calling for.

00:34:07.000 That's anarchy, plain and simple.

00:34:09.000 That's impediment.

00:34:11.000 And unfortunately, that's what ICE agents are encountering every day.

00:34:15.000 What we really need is elected officials to say, you know, you can peacefully protest, but not like that, not throwing fireworks, not breaking into vehicles, not putting your hands on ICE agents.

00:34:26.000 But instead, they just keep increasing the rhetoric.

00:34:29.000 And that's why you keep seeing this night after night.

00:34:33.000 Lyons said that Democrats are incentivizing this.

00:34:37.000 Fortunately, again, you know, I hate to sound like a broken record, but when you have elected officials that are saying, go out and do this, go out and impede ICE, you know, go out and protect your neighbor, and they're doing it like this.

00:34:49.000 This is what happens and leads to it.

00:34:50.000 And unfortunately, you know, these videos come up and there's only one side to it.

00:34:55.000 And we're constantly having to go on the defense.

00:34:57.000 But the men and women of ICE are professional.

00:34:59.000 They're professional law enforcement officers.

00:35:01.000 That's what they're out there doing every day.

00:35:03.000 And again, at the end of the day, we have to make sure our men and women of ICE and all law enforcement call them safe every night.

00:35:09.000 Again, invoking the Insurrection Act under Section 252, which is presumably the section that the president would invoke, allows the president to enforce the law.

00:35:18.000 Basically, if people are stopping the enforcement of the law, you can invoke the Insurrection Act to effectuate the enforcement of that law.

00:35:24.000 Meanwhile, over in Iran, the Iranian government is announcing apparently they're going to keep the internet shut until March.

00:35:30.000 So, for those who believe that things are going swimmingly in Iran, that now the temperature has been turned down by the Iranian government.

00:35:35.000 I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

00:35:38.000 That is obviously untrue.

00:35:40.000 The Iranian government has basically shut down protests by stationing troops pretty much everywhere in the country and threatening to shoot people if they go outside.

00:35:48.000 According to the Wall Street Journal, a fierce crackdown by Iranian security forces that has killed thousands of people protesting against the country's autocratic leaders has forced demonstrators off the streets in some cities, with residents reporting an eerie quiet after days of escalating violence.

00:36:01.000 Iran's government has blocked the internet and deployed large numbers of police and troops, by the way, including tanks, in an effort to quell the biggest threat to the regime since 1979.

00:36:09.000 Iranians said that they were afraid to leave their homes.

00:36:12.000 That is why when you hear public officials, President Trump had said the killing has stopped. 0.80

00:36:16.000 Well, I mean, the killing has stopped because the Iranians literally put out the Revolutionary Guard on street corners and said, if you show up outside your house, we'll kill you.

00:36:25.000 Ali Vaez, Iran analyst at the International Crisis Group, said the reason is very clear.

00:36:29.000 The regime has created a bloodbath.

00:36:31.000 According to human rights activists, which is one of these groups, they say that they've confirmed at least 2,600 deaths and more than 18,000 arrests.

00:36:40.000 Estimates have ranged from that range all the way on up to the tens of thousands.

00:36:45.000 Unclear at this point what's true and what is not.

00:36:47.000 Certainly, at least thousands of people have been murdered at this point.

00:36:51.000 The regime has massacred its own people in large numbers.

00:36:56.000 The president of the United States, of course, said people should maintain their presence out in the streets, that help was on its way.

00:37:02.000 We'll have to see what the president is intending.

00:37:05.000 Now, some people are claiming the president is going to do nothing.

00:37:07.000 I find that hard to believe.

00:37:08.000 He drew a red line.

00:37:09.000 That red line has been breached in an extraordinary fashion.

00:37:12.000 I think the president wants to do something meaningful. 0.99

00:37:14.000 He doesn't want to shoot a missile and hit a camel in the ass. 0.99

00:37:16.000 I think he wants to actually do something meaningful if he's going to do anything at all. 0.99

00:37:20.000 The Wall Street Journal reports something similar.

00:37:22.000 Apparently, President Trump was advised a large-scale strike against Iran was unlikely to make the government fall and could spark a wider conflict.

00:37:29.000 And for now, we'll monitor how Tehran handles protesters before deciding on the scope of a potential attack.

00:37:33.000 So it's not as though everything is off the table.

00:37:35.000 I think the question was one of efficacy.

00:37:38.000 If you launch a few airstrikes against random IRGC facilities, does it actually change the regime or allow the protesters to remain out in the streets?

00:37:46.000 Or does it simply result in a bit of a firefight in the Middle East and the Iranians continuing to murder people in the streets? 1.00

00:37:53.000 Advisors told President Trump the United States would need more military firepower in the Middle East, both to launch a large-scale strike and also to protect American forces in the region from retaliatory ballistic missile attack.

00:38:06.000 It appears, according to the Wall Street Journal, that a wide variety of regimes in the Middle East, ranging from the Saudis to the Israelis, actually, suggested that a potential strike should not be undertaken until all the pieces are in place.

00:38:18.000 So Saudis, Israelis, Qatar, like everyone apparently was saying no for different reasons.

00:38:23.000 Qatar doesn't want to strike because they're backed by Iran. 0.78

00:38:25.000 Saudi apparently doesn't want to strike because they're afraid they're going to get hit by missiles coming the other way and the Americans don't have enough force strength in the region to repel that.

00:38:33.000 The Israelis, presumably concerned about the same sort of thing.

00:38:38.000 NBC earlier had reported that Trump's advisors couldn't guarantee the Iranian regime would quickly collapse after a U.S. strike.

00:38:44.000 Lindsey Graham, who obviously the center from South Carolina, is in close touch with the presidents on this sort of stuff.

00:38:49.000 He said, the question is, should it be bigger or smaller?

00:38:51.000 I'm in the camp of bigger.

00:38:52.000 Time will tell.

00:38:54.000 So we'll have to see how things unfold.

00:38:56.000 And again, caution does not mean doing nothing.

00:38:59.000 Caution is called for, obviously.

00:39:02.000 You know, looking at the best available plan and then taking the best available plan is better than doing something precipitous.

00:39:10.000 Negotiations are not on the table here.

00:39:13.000 So the question is going to be what the actual military measures that could be undertaken would be, or economic measures or cybersecurity measures that could be taken would be to undermine the regime at this point.

00:39:29.000 According to the editorial board over at the Wall Street Journal, they say an effective U.S. policy would support Iran's people for as long as it takes for them to overwhelm their regime until it becomes paralyzed, shows cracks in its leadership, and can no longer hold back the crowds.

00:39:43.000 So obviously the Iranian people are going to have to do the heavy lifting here. 1.00

00:39:47.000 But I also do not think that the president is going to repeat Barack Obama's mistake in which he drew a red line in Syria and then did absolutely nothing before handing Syrian control over to the Russians, essentially.

00:40:00.000 So we'll see what happens from here.

00:40:02.000 Meanwhile, the White House hosted the opposition leader of Venezuela, Maria Cornelo Machado.

00:40:08.000 She met with the president.

00:40:09.000 She presented him with her Nobel Peace Prize, which he accepted.

00:40:13.000 Again, I totally understand the gesture from her.

00:40:15.000 She's obviously attempting to change the actual regime in Venezuela, and she's very grateful to the president for having ousted Nicolas Maduro.

00:40:24.000 The president taking the Nobel Peace Prize, again, would I do that?

00:40:28.000 Would you do that?

00:40:29.000 Probably not.

00:40:31.000 Trump said on social media, it was my great honor to meet Maria Cordilla Machado of Venezuela today.

00:40:35.000 She's a wonderful woman who's been through so much.

00:40:37.000 Maria presented me with her Nobel Peace Prize for the work I have done such a wonderful gesture of mutual respect.

00:40:44.000 We'll have to see whether the White House is going to put additional pressure on the Venezuelan regime to move toward elections.

00:40:49.000 Right now, they're putting pressure on the regime to do what we want, economically speaking.

00:40:56.000 The reality is that if the regime doesn't change before President Trump leaves office, there will likely be a reversion to type in Venezuela, meaning I wouldn't count on a Democrat, including Gavin Newsom, to keep the pressure on Venezuela in terms of prohibiting their transfer of oil abroad.

00:41:11.000 I think that requires a Trumpian figure in order to actually do that.

00:41:15.000 The reason that Trump has not backed Machado at this point is because he doesn't believe that she has the capacity to consolidate power in the country thus far.

00:41:25.000 More than half of Venezuelans currently say Machado should lead, as opposed to 14% who endorsed Rodriguez.

00:41:32.000 I think the basic idea here is that U.S. officials, according to Axios, see Rodriguez as the best candidate to reform the oil sector and comply with Trump's wishes without alienating regime insiders, the military, and armed gangs, all of whom could take the country into chaos.

00:41:49.000 If the U.S. backed her as leader, then the United States might have to engage in a full-scale occupation of Venezuela.

00:41:54.000 That presumably would be the concern.

00:41:55.000 Joining us on the line is Dr. Mehmet Oz.

00:41:57.000 He serves as the 17th administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

00:42:01.000 Dr. Oz, thanks so much for taking the time.

00:42:02.000 I really appreciate it.

00:42:04.000 Good to see you again, Ben.

00:42:07.000 So this morning, the Trump administration brought out its new healthcare plan focusing on bringing down costs in the health insurance industry, particularly, but also drug prices, some other areas.

00:42:17.000 What are sort of the key points that Americans need to know?

00:42:20.000 Ben, this is about putting patients first.

00:42:23.000 It's about making sure we put patients in front of profits and other Puritan self-interest that's hindered our healthcare system.

00:42:29.000 So we want to slash drug prices.

00:42:32.000 We want to bring insurance premiums down.

00:42:35.000 We want to make sure that we hold insurance companies accountable.

00:42:38.000 And we want the whole system to be transparent.

00:42:40.000 Because, Ben, for a marketplace to work, the buyers need to know what they're actually getting.

00:42:45.000 What does it cost?

00:42:46.000 What's the quality, et cetera?

00:42:47.000 So let's walk through these.

00:42:48.000 Issue number one, drug prices.

00:42:50.000 What we don't want to do is to cap prices, which would drop productivity, reduce the number of innovative solutions that will cure cancer and drive Alzheimer's back and deal with all the crises that hurt the American people.

00:43:03.000 Because the number one thing the president has said all along is keep us innovative, keep America on the cutting edge, because he knows that the big opportunity is to get Americans to want to work a little longer because they're so healthy, they're so vital, they're so productive.

00:43:17.000 They want to still stay engaged with society.

00:43:19.000 So that drives trillions of dollars into the U.S. economy.

00:43:23.000 So how do we balance those two needs?

00:43:25.000 Keeping America healthy and vital and strong and making sure that we can afford it.

00:43:30.000 Well, the president argued that it's feasible because right now he's paid and spend three times more than our European counterparts for the exact same drug, made in the same factory, bottled in the same place, and that doesn't make any sense.

00:43:43.000 And so we went to the pharmaceutical companies and said, hey, look, look at me in the eyes.

00:43:47.000 We know and you know that you've been getting away with price gouging and global freeloading from other countries as well for the last several decades.

00:43:57.000 This president will not tolerate anymore.

00:43:59.000 Work with us, be patriots, fix the problem.

00:44:02.000 And to the last one, they've all said yes.

00:44:04.000 They've come in.

00:44:05.000 They've been willing to participate the major companies.

00:44:07.000 We haven't gotten to the smaller ones yet.

00:44:09.000 And for that reason, we now have a bunch of contracts with pharmaceutical companies where they agree voluntarily to reduce their prices so they're the most favored nation pricing here in America.

00:44:19.000 It's fair.

00:44:20.000 It works.

00:44:21.000 It turns out that these companies have maintained their valuations.

00:44:24.000 They haven't been hurt by these deals, even though they've taken significant financial haircuts.

00:44:29.000 The president wants Congress to codify what we already believe works.

00:44:33.000 We don't want to go any further.

00:44:34.000 We don't want to cause any more problems for any pharmaceutical companies, for any parts of these negotiations.

00:44:39.000 We just want to grandfather in people who have been there and make sure that going forward in future administrations, the drug companies stay committed to this deal structure and that the U.S. government doesn't overreach its needs and start to do crazy things like cap prices in the pharma space that actually would hurt their innovation.

00:44:58.000 So that's the big first step, number one, most favored nation, acronym MFN.

00:45:02.000 You'll be hearing that a lot.

00:45:03.000 Second big area: how do you make insurance companies accountable?

00:45:06.000 Well, first off, the money that they're getting, this is a good example for the Affordable Care Act, as the president calls it, the unaffordable care act, is a problem because they just take the money, their valuations go up.

00:45:18.000 The money actually eventually some of it gets down to the people, but premiums still keep rising.

00:45:23.000 So the president said, from now on, we want the money going to the people.

00:45:27.000 We want to make sure that as much as possible, we drive down prices in the insurance space fairly.

00:45:33.000 And there's a way of doing that called cost-sharing reduction.

00:45:37.000 It was actually in the One Big Beautiful bill.

00:45:39.000 The president put it in there, and yet Democrats stripped it out.

00:45:42.000 It's a smart way to run insurance.

00:45:45.000 It actually drops the prices for everybody by more than 10%.

00:45:48.000 So we want to try and get those elements of the program back into this legislation.

00:45:52.000 But we also want insurance companies to tell us how much are you taking home of the premiums and how much are you paying out for the benefits of the average American people?

00:46:00.000 What value are you providing?

00:46:02.000 How many months do people have to wait to get a simple doctor's appointment?

00:46:06.000 Tell us exactly what's going on behind the scenes so you're accountable and so people can pick the best companies out there.

00:46:12.000 Because if we're given the average American money in their HSA account or in their pocket to buy insurance, they need to be educated about which ones to pick.

00:46:20.000 And finally, Ben, and you're a big proponent about this.

00:46:22.000 Just be transparent.

00:46:23.000 I mean, shed light.

00:46:24.000 What's the first thing we do when you, as a surgeon, when you're called into another operation for a colleague?

00:46:29.000 First thing you do is open the wound up and put better light in there so you can see what's going on.

00:46:33.000 Like this infects all as well.

00:46:35.000 So we need to actually be transparent in what things cost.

00:46:38.000 If you are doing business with Medicare and Medicaid, those are the agencies that I regulate.

00:46:43.000 We want you to post on the wall, very clean, in plain English, exactly what you're getting.

00:46:49.000 What does it cost?

00:46:51.000 And what are the other options that you may have as a patient?

00:46:53.000 This is all, by the way, stuff that we've been talking about.

00:46:56.000 Let's just put it into a law that everyone can, for the foreseeable future, point to and say, because of that, you got to be fair with the American people.

00:47:05.000 So, Dr. Oz, I want to ask you a couple of quick questions on each of these areas.

00:47:08.000 So, when it comes to lowering the drug prices, for example, obviously the biggest problem we have with drug pricing is that Americans pay a different price than people in other countries are paying.

00:47:17.000 And that's because of the collective bargaining in those other countries where governments are basically cramming down their own prices on the drunk companies.

00:47:24.000 And then you squeeze the balloon in one area and it inflates in America, essentially, where we pay the remaining sort of market price.

00:47:30.000 Is the presumption here that these companies are now going to go back to other countries and say, listen, the American people are not going to foot the bill for this.

00:47:37.000 You're going to have to increase the price that you pay in France because we're having to decrease the price that we pay in the United States.

00:47:44.000 It's exactly the message we're delivering: no more global freeloading.

00:47:47.000 And I'll tell you a specific example where we've already done this: the UK, who may have been the worst offender.

00:47:53.000 And just to underline what you're saying, when you get a cutting-edge new drug that saves your life, for example, with a bad cancer in this country, the Europeans don't get it for several years.

00:48:03.000 So there's actually a significant delay because they're not willing to pay.

00:48:06.000 So we're being very transparent with European leaders and people in those countries that what you think is the best possible medicine really isn't because you're not willing to pay towards the kiddie to save lives.

00:48:17.000 Listen, how does NATO work?

00:48:18.000 NATO works because everyone empties up money so you can defend the continent of Europe.

00:48:23.000 America pays too, by the way.

00:48:25.000 But we are asking other countries to chip in.

00:48:28.000 Same thing as you have external threats from NATO, we have internal threats from diseases that plague all humanity.

00:48:34.000 So why is it that America is footing the bill to develop the drugs?

00:48:37.000 So we pay most of the RD expense.

00:48:39.000 But then in addition, we're paying three times more, as you point out, for those same products.

00:48:43.000 So we're saying to the UK, for example, we just did this deal.

00:48:46.000 You need to spend a little bit more of your GDP on medications.

00:48:49.000 They've agreed.

00:48:50.000 Companies are seeing that there's results here because the president can use tariffs and other tools.

00:48:55.000 He can say, listen, you may not care about medication prices.

00:48:58.000 You're willing to shove it down the throats of these companies, but we're going to cause other problems for you using the other levers that our economy has.

00:49:06.000 So don't hurt us on an area where you should actually be aligned with us by saving American lives.

00:49:11.000 And they're going to come on board.

00:49:14.000 So, Dr. Oz, when you move to the area of lower insurance premiums, one of the big points here is send the money to the American people, sort of like an HSA, as opposed to sending it directly to the insurance companies.

00:49:24.000 The question is that when it comes to the insurance industry, it is the regulations, not necessarily the subsidies.

00:49:30.000 The subsidies are results of the regulations.

00:49:32.000 The regulations under Obamacare make it so that you can't get certain types of plans.

00:49:37.000 They also ensure that there's no upper limit on coverage.

00:49:39.000 They also ensure the elimination of quote unquote pre-existing conditions.

00:49:43.000 The combination of all that means that insurance companies are no longer insurance companies.

00:49:47.000 They're basically health cost providers, meaning that if you walk in and you have stage four cancer, they are expected to cover you and they're going to defray that cost by charging somebody else a higher price.

00:49:57.000 And we're making sure that people don't quote unquote escape the system if you're young and you're healthy by forcing them to buy a comprehensive insurance plan they wouldn't otherwise normally buy.

00:50:04.000 If I'm 21 years old, I really don't need a comprehensive insurance plan in the same way that I do when I'm 65 years old.

00:50:10.000 So how much can we help just by sending people checks directly as opposed to really rewriting the regulatory structures around Obamacare?

00:50:17.000 And are there plans to rewrite those regulatory structures?

00:50:22.000 It's not an either or, we need to do both.

00:50:24.000 You've raised all the issues Republicans have been barking about for the last 15 years.

00:50:28.000 We have got to make this real insurance.

00:50:30.000 It's a discount card right now.

00:50:32.000 And so what you described, for example, are association plans where companies can bond together and say, hey, listen, we got enough purchasing power now.

00:50:41.000 So we need a discount.

00:50:42.000 We need to have better ways of allowing the private sector to engage Obamacare. 0.96

00:50:48.000 Let me just highlight something that's underlying this issue you just raised, which is a very important observation.

00:50:53.000 When Obamacare was created, it was called an exchange.

00:50:57.000 Why was it called an exchange?

00:50:58.000 The idea was that half the people at Obamacare would be federally subsidized.

00:51:03.000 People don't have means.

00:51:04.000 You want to sort of get them as they leave Medicaid and enter the workforce, give them some level of coverage.

00:51:09.000 But the other half of the people in these Obamacare ACAs, the Affordable Care Act created entities were supposed to be from the private sector.

00:51:17.000 You know, small businesses, mom and pop shops.

00:51:20.000 You know, I go in a diner.

00:51:21.000 I've got six employees.

00:51:23.000 Give me discounted, accessible, affordable insurance, and I'll buy them for my employees because they're working hard.

00:51:30.000 I want to be a partner with them.

00:51:31.000 So it was supposed to be like that.

00:51:33.000 But if the federal government is throwing money at the problem and whatever it takes to buy more and more coverage with rules that don't make sense, as you point out, all of a sudden it's too expensive for that guy who runs a diner.

00:51:43.000 So he has to now forego buying health insurance because he couldn't do that and pay his employees a living wage and afford to have his business.

00:51:52.000 And so we're actually hurting the people we're trying to help most with this.

00:51:55.000 So the things you mentioned have already been discussed.

00:51:57.000 We want that ideally to be part of this plan.

00:51:59.000 But the president wanted a framework.

00:52:01.000 He wanted to architect the ideas that we believe are so fundamental to making healthcare affordable in America that he won't compromise on them.

00:52:11.000 Within that framework, to make it work more efficiently, all the things you point out need to be included.

00:52:16.000 By the way, the cost sharing reduction that I mentioned is another one of those examples.

00:52:19.000 You would never run an insurance company without being able to make sure that people can pay their copay and their minimums and all that stuff.

00:52:26.000 And it just helps deal with that in a more sophisticated way than what's going on right now, which is the insurance companies just game the system to drive up prices in one area, which of course, people who know it take advantage of it, people don't get taken advantage of.

00:52:40.000 We don't want that in our healthcare.

00:52:43.000 When it comes to the transparency point that you're making, obviously one of the great frustrations is you go into the hospital, you get a bill, it's a bajillion dollars for a broken leg for an x-ray or whatever it is.

00:52:53.000 And that's not the end price that you end up paying.

00:52:55.000 Now, obviously, the insurance companies are part of that bargaining process, but the other part of the process, and maybe the bigger part of the process, is the hospitals and the healthcare providers, because what they are doing is they are negotiating different rates with different insurance companies.

00:53:08.000 And so they are very often putting out a price that they know they're never going to get from the insurance company.

00:53:13.000 They put that out to you.

00:53:14.000 And then it looks like the insurance company covered this gigantic price.

00:53:17.000 And so there's this whole game that's being played.

00:53:19.000 How much of the focus on transparency should be placed not on the insurance companies, but actually on the healthcare providers themselves?

00:53:27.000 Needs to be focused on both.

00:53:28.000 As you point out, the game is played in many different ways.

00:53:31.000 And the gaming of the system happens in different ways for that reason.

00:53:34.000 But remember, the marketplace is not just individuals going to a doctor and deciding which physician is going to give them a better value because it's not just what they charge, but what do they get for that money?

00:53:43.000 But right now, you get a discounted insurance policy, but you can't find a doctor.

00:53:47.000 That's why you want the transparency to include all the things that you might want to know about.

00:53:50.000 But the real market bend is made by commercial employers, right?

00:53:56.000 The people buy commercial insurance.

00:53:57.000 They're the big companies.

00:53:59.000 They have a thousand employees and they want to get the best value for their employees.

00:54:02.000 Remember, their most important resource are those people.

00:54:06.000 They want them to be healthy.

00:54:07.000 They want them thriving.

00:54:08.000 They want them at work and happy with what's going on.

00:54:11.000 Plus, it's a way of building loyalty within the workplace.

00:54:13.000 So they work their tails off to get the best value.

00:54:16.000 They have trouble finding the prices.

00:54:17.000 We're also, by the way, going to stop down the middlemen who are getting paid an inordinate amount of money just to connect the pharmacy benefits companies into the workplace.

00:54:28.000 So there are these brokers that make deals.

00:54:31.000 They're working this whole, it's like stockbrokers, right?

00:54:33.000 They're behind the scenes making all these deals happen, but you don't know who they are.

00:54:36.000 You don't know what they're charging.

00:54:37.000 And so we don't want all that.

00:54:38.000 We want it to be so obvious what the prices are that you can make the decision as an employer.

00:54:44.000 And by doing that, you'll drive value because now you've got two hospitals competing because what does it cost to do a hernia?

00:54:50.000 If it's $500 for you and $5,000 for the next guy, or MRI scanner access to a treatment, well, then you're going to make a wise decision.

00:54:59.000 But again, you have to create a true marketplace.

00:55:01.000 Marketplaces require transparency of pricing.

00:55:04.000 I've got to know what I'm buying.

00:55:05.000 And whenever you don't know what things cost, there's a reason for it, right?

00:55:11.000 If you're not sitting at the table, you're on the menu.

00:55:13.000 And that's what's happened to the American consumer.

00:55:17.000 Well, that's Dr. Oz over at the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

00:55:21.000 The plan is out today.

00:55:22.000 You can go access it over at the website at the White House.

00:55:25.000 Dr. Oz, really appreciate the time and the insight.

00:55:28.000 Bless you.

00:55:29.000 Alrighty, coming up, we are going to jump into the Vaunted Ben Shapiro show mailbag, but only if you're a member can you see such things.

00:55:36.000 If you're not a member, become a member.

00:55:37.000 Use Code Shapiro checkout for two months free on all annual plans.

00:55:39.000 Click that link in the description and join us.

00:55:43.000 What was it like, Merlin, to be alone with God?

00:55:52.000 Is that who you think I was alone with?

00:55:58.000 Marathon, I knew your father.

00:56:00.000 I am yet convinced that he was not of this world.

00:56:06.000 All men know of the great Talies.

00:56:09.000 You are my father.

00:56:10.000 Are the gods all for my soul?

00:56:13.000 Princess Garris, savior of our people.

00:56:19.000 I know what the bull got offered you.

00:56:22.000 I was offered the same.

00:56:23.000 And there is a new pirate work in the world.

00:56:27.000 I've seen it.

00:56:29.000 A god who sacrifices what he loves for us.

00:56:32.000 We are each given only one life, singer.

00:56:35.000 No.

00:56:36.000 We're given another.

00:56:40.000 I learned of Yezu the Christ, and I have become his follower.

00:56:44.000 He's waiting on a miracle, and I think you can give him one.

00:56:47.000 Trust in Yezu. 0.87

00:56:49.000 He is the only hope for men like us.

00:56:51.000 Fate of Britain never rests in the hands of the Great Life.

00:56:54.000 Great light, great darkness.

00:56:57.000 Such things mattered to me then.

00:57:00.000 What matters to you now, Mistress of Lies?

00:57:03.000 You, nephew.

00:57:08.000 The sword of the High King.

00:57:12.000 How many lives must be lost before you accept the power you were born to wield.

00:57:20.000 Still clinging to the promises of a god who has abandoned you.

00:57:23.000 I cannot take up that sword again.

00:57:26.000 You know what you must do.

00:57:29.000 Great life, forgive me.

The Ben Shapiro Show - January 16, 2026

What I Learned From Sitting With Gavin Newsom

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