The Ben Shapiro Show - Zuby | The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special Ep. 68

00:00:00.000 I think one of the worst things you can do, especially to a young person, is to convince them that they're some kind of victim and that the world is against them and that they're oppressed, especially if that's not actually true.

00:00:11.000 because I believe that whatever lens you view the world through is gonna be your reality.

00:00:24.000 Hey, and welcome.

00:00:25.000 This is the Ben Shapiro Show Sunday special.

00:00:27.000 I'm excited to welcome to the show independent rapper, host of Real Talk with Zuby podcast, the author of Strong Advice, Zuby's Guide to Fitness for Everybody.

00:00:34.000 If you didn't know, it's Zuby. 0.89

00:00:35.000 Zuby, thanks so much for stopping by, dude.

00:00:36.000 Really appreciate it.

00:00:37.000 It's a lot, man.

00:00:38.000 I'm happy to be here.

00:00:38.000 Well, the first I had seen of any of your work, obviously it wasn't rap, because as we will discuss, I have some differences with you on rap, and I'm going to have you convince me that I really ought to listen to more rap.

00:00:49.000 But the first I was aware of you was when you cut that hilarious video that obviously went viral of you breaking every women's weightlifting record in the UK in one session, basically, while identifying as a woman.

00:01:03.000 Number one, what was the origin of that particular idea?

00:01:05.000 Number two, did they actually change the books to reflect the fact that as a woman, you had now destroyed all of the records?

00:01:11.000 OK, so well, how do I start with this?

00:01:14.000 So those videos were actually just from some of my random training sessions.

00:01:19.000 So I didn't actually enter a sanctioned powerlifting meet and officially break the records.

00:01:23.000 But I had the videos on my phone and I'd seen a whole bunch of stories popping up on my timeline about Transgender women beating biological women in their own sports. 0.99

00:01:33.000 It was happening in athletics and weightlifting, all these kind of things.

00:01:36.000 So just out of curiosity, I did a Google search just to see what the powerlifting records were in Britain for females in my own weight class.

00:01:45.000 And I saw them all, and I was like, oh, I can beat these Quite comprehensively.

00:01:50.000 So I just did a search on my phone and I had videos of training clips of me lifting more than those.

00:01:55.000 So I literally just created that first deadlift tweet.

00:01:57.000 So it was a video that already existed on my phone and it was already on the internet but without any context except it being from my training session.

00:02:04.000 So I just wrote that caption, you know, I keep hearing about how biological men have no physical advantage over women so watch me destroy the British women's deadlift record.

00:02:12.000 Without trying, and I really wasn't trying in that video, because that video was about 60 kilos, 100 pounds below my maximum, which was kind of the point, because I'm not even a competitive athlete.

00:02:22.000 So I just put that out there, thinking it would get a couple of laughs from my existing audience, and lo and behold, it took over the internet for a couple of days and got international coverage, and now here we are.

00:02:32.000 Well, how dare you, sir?

00:02:33.000 I mean, first of all, how dare you?

00:02:35.000 I mean, pointing out that there are average differences in biology between men and women.

00:02:38.000 This obviously is untouchable.

00:02:39.000 Did you get any serious blowback from people over the point that you're making?

00:02:43.000 Which really has nothing to do with transgender rights or anything like that.

00:02:48.000 The serious point that you're making is that obviously there are biological differences between men and women.

00:02:52.000 What was the blowback like from that?

00:02:53.000 Yeah, so firstly, the support was huge.

00:02:56.000 The support was gigantic.

00:03:00.000 I've got followers who are trans and I've had lots of messages from people who are actually trans saying, dude, that was hilarious.

00:03:09.000 Because they understand the reality, they got the humor.

00:03:12.000 There was a very tiny, tiny percentage of people, less than 1% of people, who responded to it, who were trying to attribute some kind of malice to what I was doing.

00:03:22.000 There were people who were angry at it for different reasons, though.

00:03:24.000 People who didn't understand it.

00:03:25.000 Some people were angry at me, saying that what I did was unfair towards women.

00:03:29.000 They were like, hey, you're not really a woman.

00:03:31.000 That's not fair.

00:03:32.000 What you did was messed up.

00:03:33.000 You took away the record from women. 0.70

00:03:34.000 But I was kind of like, that's the...

00:03:37.000 You kind of got the point, but you've also really, really missed it here.

00:03:40.000 And then there were also other people trying to say that it came from some place of hatred towards transgender people or LGBT people as a whole, which of course it wasn't.

00:03:50.000 Some people were saying, oh, well, you didn't go on the hormone therapy, so you're not really this or you're not really that.

00:03:56.000 Pretty sure even if I did go on hormone therapy for one year, I wouldn't exactly be equivalent to someone born a female.

00:04:03.000 But yeah, there was a little bit of blowback, as expected, just given how many people ended up seeing it.

00:04:08.000 I mean, millions of people saw that.

00:04:10.000 But overall, overwhelmingly, it was positive and people understood what I was getting at.

00:04:15.000 So, for folks who don't know anything about your profile, you have this very eclectic profile.

00:04:18.000 You're an independent rapper, and you have a book about fitness, and also you're a grad of Oxford.

00:04:23.000 So, what's your life story?

00:04:24.000 How did you get to the point where you're now here, sitting in this studio?

00:04:27.000 Yeah, sure.

00:04:28.000 So, the abbreviated life story of Zuby, I was born in the UK.

00:04:31.000 I actually moved to the Middle East.

00:04:33.000 I lived in Saudi Arabia.

00:04:35.000 I moved there when I was one.

00:04:36.000 My parents worked out there for a couple of decades.

00:04:38.000 My dad's a doctor, and like your wife.

00:04:41.000 And my mom was working as a journalist at the time.

00:04:44.000 So we lived in Saudi Arabia.

00:04:47.000 I went to school there up until fifth grade.

00:04:50.000 So when I was 11, I went to boarding school in the UK at the age of 11.

00:04:52.000 So I was back and forth between the two countries for a long time.

00:04:55.000 Did really well in school.

00:04:58.000 Got into Oxford University and went there to study computer science.

00:05:01.000 So I did that for three years.

00:05:02.000 When I was in my first year, I started rapping.

00:05:05.000 When I was a kid I used to play piano, so I did some music in the past then.

00:05:09.000 I also played trombone in a band for a while.

00:05:11.000 And then I kind of fell out of love with music and fell back into it.

00:05:16.000 I was a hip-hop fan in my teen years at school.

00:05:19.000 And then I started rapping in university and discovered I had a knack for writing lyrics and performing.

00:05:24.000 So I released my first album, Commercial Underground, when I was 19.

00:05:28.000 and put that out just independently, sold a few thousand copies, and that kind of set the spark of, oh, this is maybe something I can do something with.

00:05:34.000 So I graduated, moved to London.

00:05:37.000 I worked as a management consultant, actually, for a couple of years whilst juggling my music stuff on the side.

00:05:41.000 And then in November 2011, I took the plunge and said, hey, I'm going to go and pursue my music stuff full time.

00:05:48.000 And I haven't starved to death yet, so I'm doing something right.

00:05:51.000 And then other things have been added to the mix as time has gone on.

00:05:54.000 So this year I started my podcast, Real Talk with Zuby. 0.74

00:05:57.000 I wrote and released my first book, Strong Advice.

00:05:59.000 In terms of the fitness stuff, I've been training for over half my life.

00:06:03.000 So I figured, yo, why don't I put something together here that can help people?

00:06:08.000 So I put that out this year, started doing a little bit more public speaking and stuff like that.

00:06:13.000 You know, I'm just trying to fulfill my potential, basically.

00:06:15.000 Because music is the core of what I do.

00:06:18.000 It's something I'm extremely passionate about.

00:06:21.000 But I'm aware that I have a lot to offer beyond just the music.

00:06:25.000 You know, I've got something to add to the conversation.

00:06:28.000 There's stuff I can help people with in terms of fitness and developing a stronger mindset and stuff like that.

00:06:34.000 And all those avenues are things I'm trying to contribute to the world in a positive way, really.

00:06:39.000 So I have many, many questions, and I'm going to get to all of them in just one second.

00:06:42.000 But first, I used to go to the post office all the time, and then I realized that I didn't have to go to the post office anymore, which is great because the post office is wonderful.

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00:07:33.000 It's no wonder over 700,000 small businesses already use Stamps.com.

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00:07:45.000 So, first of all, what was it like to live in Saudi Arabia?

00:07:48.000 I mean, I didn't know that part of your profile.

00:07:50.000 What was that actually like?

00:07:51.000 Click on that microphone at the top of the homepage, type in Shapiro, that is stamps.com, enter Shapiro.

00:07:56.000 So, first of all, what was it like to live in Saudi Arabia?

00:07:59.000 I mean, I didn't know that part of your profile.

00:08:00.000 What was that actually like?

00:08:02.000 As somebody who, for one particular reason, is not allowed in Saudi Arabia, what exactly was that like for you? - I actually really liked it.

00:08:10.000 Where I grew up was, it was kind of like a bubble.

00:08:12.000 It was an expat community, so you had people there from all over.

00:08:15.000 The USA, Canada, UK.

00:08:18.000 It's why my accent doesn't even sound British, because I lived in Saudi Arabia and I was in the American school system for such a long time.

00:08:24.000 And I'm someone who's really hard to influence, so even when I went to the UK, my accent just didn't really shift too much.

00:08:30.000 But it was a great place to grow up, really, like, diversity in the true sense of the word.

00:08:35.000 I was surrounded by people of All different nationalities, different religions, different races, whatever, just from the very, very beginning, which is part of why I find some of the identity politics stuff that's happening now really, really weird, because I didn't grow up with any of that.

00:08:49.000 It just wasn't a thing.

00:08:52.000 But yeah, great place to go to school.

00:08:54.000 Had a lot of good friends there, some of whom are still there.

00:08:56.000 In terms of what it looks like, it's weird being in L.A.

00:08:58.000 because it looks really similar, and the temperature and climate is actually really, really similar.

00:09:04.000 And the roads and the trees, everything like that.

00:09:06.000 So just as we were, you know, driving around the place, I've been thinking, man, this reminds me of Saudi. 0.98

00:09:11.000 But overall, I have a very positive view of the place.

00:09:14.000 I know it's one of those countries that a lot of people have negative views of.

00:09:20.000 And I can understand some of that.

00:09:22.000 But there's also a lot of pros to it and the way they there's a lot of things I think that country could learn from a place like the US or UK.

00:09:31.000 There's also stuff I think the US and UK could learn from a country like Saudi Arabia, which people might be surprised to hear. - And what are some of the things you think that the West could learn from Saudi Arabia? - Well, I think, firstly, it's a very, I know you're a religious person. 0.55

00:09:46.000 I'm a religious person.

00:09:47.000 It's a very totally God-fearing country.

00:09:49.000 Everybody is on the same page.

00:09:52.000 So that, like, it has its benefits and it has its drawbacks in terms of the rules and the laws and whatnot.

00:10:00.000 It's pretty strict.

00:10:02.000 And there's some stuff that maybe people in the West may think should be allowed, which is not allowed there.

00:10:07.000 But when it comes to things like, I'd say, a lot of the social issues and problems that are major issues in the modern western world, they hardly exist over there, right?

00:10:18.000 So if you're talking about broken families or fatherless homes, or, you know, yeah, kids growing up without parents, drug addiction, alcoholism and alcohol problems, all that, it's just not a thing there.

00:10:31.000 Because alcohol is illegal, there's no drugs.

00:10:36.000 And again, people fear God, so You find that people there are very honest, actually.

00:10:42.000 People are extremely honest, very hospitable, very traditional in certain senses.

00:10:48.000 So it's easy.

00:10:49.000 It's an easy place to criticize for a lot of reasons, but it does have its benefits to society in terms of just things working and functioning and people kind of being on the same page and just knowing, OK, this is how we do things.

00:11:04.000 Respect it, take it or leave it.

00:11:06.000 And it's a weird one to balance, but as someone who lived there for 19 years, you can certainly see how it works and it's not all bad in the way that people seem to think that it is.

00:11:16.000 I mean, you have this really iconoclastic worldview where you talk a lot about responsibility, and you're obviously anti-identity politics.

00:11:23.000 What do you think shaped that?

00:11:24.000 I mean, you talked a little bit, obviously, already about the fact that you grew up in a diverse community, but identity politics is so much a part of modern politics, and it's something that I deplore a lot of people on the political right and many in the political center seem to deplore, but it obviously is a serious force in both European politics and certainly in American politics.

00:11:41.000 What do you make of the upswing in identity politics, people seeming to identify by racial group or ethnic group rather than identifying as individuals?

00:11:49.000 I think it's a shame.

00:11:50.000 I think it's a huge step backwards.

00:11:52.000 Like I said, all throughout my life, whether it's what my parents and my family taught me or the schooling I went through both in Saudi and in the UK and even up through university, none of this A lot of these talking points just were not a thing.

00:12:08.000 It seemed like people had moved past all that stuff.

00:12:11.000 Obviously, it was a major problem in the past, and it still is in certain countries.

00:12:16.000 But it seemed like in the mid-2010s or early 2010s, suddenly people started falling back into this sort of racial identitarianism.

00:12:25.000 There's a version of it on the far right.

00:12:27.000 There's a version of it on the far left.

00:12:30.000 They don't seem to want to accept the fact that they're actually kind of similar to each other in a lot of ways.

00:12:36.000 Their motives and wording of stuff might be a little bit different, but they're kind of playing the same game, and I'm very much an individualist who's just like, look, I don't care where you're from, I don't care what skin color you are, I don't care what Sexuality, all that kind of stuff.

00:12:51.000 It seems so obvious and basic and people do say it, but then a lot of people, the way they behave and the rhetoric they use, it starts defying what they're claiming to talk about.

00:13:04.000 So yeah, I'd say it lines with just my own personality and then where I was raised, my own family, my parents, it was just never A thing.

00:13:14.000 They never sat me down and were like, oh, Zuby, you're black and we're black, so life is going to be harder for you, or you're going to have to work 10, you know, all that stuff.

00:13:25.000 There's something that people call the talk, and I never got the talk in that sense, which I'm very grateful for, because I think one of the worst things you can do, especially to a young person, is to convince them that they're some kind of victim, and that the world is against them, and that they're oppressed, especially if that's not actually True, because I believe that whatever lens you view the world through is gonna be your reality if you walk around thinking that.

00:13:51.000 The whole society and nation is very, very racist and very, very sexist and very, very bigoted.

00:13:57.000 You'll start to see those things even where they don't exist, right?

00:14:01.000 You'll get onto a bus and the bus driver might be a little bit rude to you and you'll say, oh, he was like that to me because I'm black or because I'm a woman, whereas it might just be that he's not a very nice guy or he's in a bad mood or whatever, right?

00:14:13.000 you start reading intentions that may not even be there.

00:14:17.000 And you're seeing people doing this a lot now, right?

00:14:19.000 You're hearing people talking about things like the rise of white supremacy and things.

00:14:24.000 And I'm like, what?

00:14:25.000 Where?

00:14:26.000 Is the KKK coming back?

00:14:28.000 If they are, then let me know because I need to be aware, right?

00:14:31.000 But you're having people just saying these terms and putting things out there and really catastrophizing in a way.

00:14:37.000 And I just don't think it's helpful to people.

00:14:39.000 Like I said, I just don't think you want to be convincing people that they are victims, that they're oppressed, and then getting mad at them.

00:14:48.000 I've had people get mad at me for telling them I'm not oppressed.

00:14:51.000 Which to me is the most bizarre thing.

00:14:53.000 I've literally been in arguments with people where they're trying to convince me I'm impressed.

00:14:57.000 I'm like, no, I'm good.

00:15:00.000 I'm very, very privileged, right?

00:15:03.000 99% of the people in the world would probably quite happily swap positions with me.

00:15:08.000 And then just having that perspective, like my family background is also from Nigeria.

00:15:14.000 In terms of just having a global perspective on things and seeing just how fortunate we are.

00:15:21.000 If you live in the UK, if you live in the US, you're in such a good position.

00:15:27.000 People like to talk about the 1%. 0.64

00:15:28.000 Most of the people talking about that are in the 1% globally.

00:15:32.000 And I just don't think a lot of people realize that and feel that sense of gratitude and perspective for where they are.

00:15:38.000 So that's something that's very much ingrained in me.

00:15:42.000 And yeah, I think that helps to shape my worldview a lot.

00:15:45.000 It's interesting.

00:15:45.000 I mean, I talk to a lot of folks on the left, obviously.

00:15:47.000 I have friends on the left, many of whom are people of color, and there is this constant conversation about systems of oppression, systemic oppression in the United States, institutional racism, the legacy of vestiges of the past, Jim Crow and slavery.

00:16:01.000 You know, I don't even like the term people of color.

00:16:03.000 I don't use it.

00:16:05.000 Because why do we need it?

00:16:06.000 Why do we need a term that just means non-white?

00:16:09.000 I wrote this on Twitter.

00:16:09.000 No, really!

00:16:12.000 It went kind of viral.

00:16:13.000 I said something like, I don't use the term people of color because you only need that delineation if you're a Klansman.

00:16:20.000 Or you're a radical leftist, right?

00:16:23.000 What's the term for people who are not black?

00:16:25.000 There isn't one.

00:16:26.000 There's no word for that.

00:16:27.000 So why would I need a word for everybody who's not white? 0.96

00:16:33.000 Because I don't see the world that way.

00:16:39.000 I have some black friends on the left who really do focus in a lot on what they believe to be the imbalances of power between white folks and black folks in the United States, primarily because they're not European.

00:16:52.000 And they talk about the disparities in terms of systemic oppression, institutional racism, and vestiges of old institutions.

00:16:59.000 So you see, for example, the New York Times in the last few weeks pushing what they call the 1619 Project, the idea that the United States was founded and steeped in racism and white supremacy and that all of the institutions are corrupted at root level by slavery and that capitalism is a vestige of slavery, that all inequality is a vestige of slavery.

00:17:16.000 My perspective has always been that, of course, these are realities, particularly in the past.

00:17:22.000 I mean, there's no way to deny the evil of slavery, nor should anybody.

00:17:25.000 No way to deny the evil of Jim Crow, nor should anybody. 0.98

00:17:27.000 It's very important to understand that stuff.

00:17:28.000 When it comes to helping people in the here and now, I'm not sure how it helps people in the here and now to tell them that the obstacles that they face in their life are vestiges of an unchangeable system that is rooted in the American or Western DNA, when it seems to me that the vast majority of Going forward, inequality is not going to be driven by systemic oppression.

00:17:49.000 It's going to be driven by individual decision-making, and people making good decisions are going to be able to rise in this society.

00:17:54.000 Where do you come down on that particular debate?

00:17:56.000 Yeah, I mean, I mostly agree with you there.

00:17:58.000 I mean, I think at some point, it's important to acknowledge history, and I think most people, regardless of their political leanings, do that, and they're like, look, in the past, human beings have done a lot of messed up stuff.

00:18:12.000 And there's no question that black Americans historically have suffered direct oppression all the way through to not so long ago.

00:18:23.000 And I don't think there's any question that there are still after effects and aftershocks of that.

00:18:29.000 So it's one of those situations where a lot of people want to be like either or and they want to view it as some binary either.

00:18:35.000 Everything is systemic and everything is institutionalized and everything has a problem with the system.

00:18:41.000 Or go completely on this other side and say everything is down to individual choices.

00:18:46.000 I think the truth is...

00:18:49.000 Both of those have elements of truth in them.

00:18:53.000 I would say that for looking ahead, looking for people who exist now, people who are in the future, nobody who exists now was ever a slave, nor were their parents, nor do they hold slaves, neither did their parents.

00:19:07.000 So I think you can acknowledge the history and say, OK, look, this is where things have come from.

00:19:13.000 But then look at, OK, what are the current problems that are happening amongst certain communities right now?

00:19:20.000 OK, if you removed racism from the heart of every American in the world with some of these problems that are facing, you could say, I don't really use the term black community because it's too broad.

00:19:33.000 But if you look at some of the problems with, you know, black Americans or the black American community, to use the terminology, are facing, I'd say a big one is has to do a lot of it stems from family.

00:19:46.000 A lot of it stems from family, fatherless homes.

00:19:49.000 It's like this big elephant in the room that a lot of people don't really want to address.

00:19:53.000 Just the way people treat each other, the way people value or don't value life.

00:19:59.000 to some degree and this is generally still talking about a very small minority of a minority but those are real problems and those are not problems that exist because of racism okay people focus on when it comes to something institutionalized or systemic a lot of people would focus on on the justice system right so

00:20:18.000 So people will say, oh, well, you know, there might be... I haven't looked at all the data on this, but I know a lot of people say that black people may get longer sentences for the same crime, or some people think that the police are kind of just going around randomly shooting black men, which I don't really think is...

00:20:36.000 I think those are the ones that get the most media attention, but if you look at the data, it doesn't really seem to fit that narrative from what I've seen.

00:20:44.000 I mean, I used to believe that, too, until I looked at the wider picture and was like, OK, well, what else is happening here that's not being reported?

00:20:50.000 And I was like, hmm, the narrative isn't quite as simple as people are saying here.

00:20:55.000 So my point is that if you removed racism completely, Those issues that I've just talked about, for the most part, would still continue to exist and persist, which would suggest to me that that's not the main issue here, right?

00:21:09.000 The issue is aspects of culture and behavior and personal responsibility.

00:21:15.000 So I think a much better message, rather than telling people that the system is out to get them or the game is rigged against them or whatnot, which you can't really do anything Firstly, I don't think it's true.

00:21:30.000 Or if it is, it's to a very light degree.

00:21:33.000 And I think most people would want to get it so that it's completely gone.

00:21:36.000 I think everyone's on the same page on that.

00:21:41.000 You can control yourself.

00:21:42.000 It's a lot easier to control yourself than to control the whole system.

00:21:48.000 You want to overthrow capitalism.

00:21:49.000 You want to get rid of this.

00:21:51.000 Most people don't have the power to do that.

00:21:53.000 You've got a country of 300 and something million people.

00:21:57.000 It's the way it is, and there's a lot of opportunity in this country.

00:22:01.000 It comes back to that perspective and gratitude thing, right?

00:22:03.000 There's so much opportunity.

00:22:04.000 Even if you're not coming from a great place, even if you're not coming from, you know, the top, even if you're in the bottom quartile to begin with, over the course of time, several decades, I know you've talked about this a lot, right?

00:22:15.000 If people make good decisions and avoid, not even just make good decisions, but avoid making really bad decisions, then I do believe that most people

00:22:26.000 Can not most people I do believe that all people can succeed to some degree and be happy and be content and whatever and not just be angry at all the time and not be getting more divided and falling back more more into tribal identity and all that I mean it's just sad for me to see that happen because again I'm obsessed with the idea of potential so when I'm I kind of see potential and it's not being fulfilled or people are

00:22:50.000 Running around just doing and saying things that aren't helpful, then I find it personally quite frustrating.

00:22:58.000 So, obviously you're not American, you've spent some time in America, but what is the perspective from abroad on President Trump, upon whose shoulders apparently all of world peace rests?

00:23:07.000 What's your take on Trump?

00:23:09.000 Okay, I can't speak for the rest of the world, I can speak for myself personally.

00:23:13.000 I'm not going to try to give the whole UK view or the whole abroad view.

00:23:16.000 I think the UK view as a whole is Mostly negative, but not as negative as the press would probably like to make people believe there are a lot of Trump supporters or people who think he's generally doing a good job in the UK.

00:23:32.000 My personal view is that I think he's doing a pretty good job in terms of what he's actually doing.

00:23:43.000 I've been familiar with Donald Trump for decades, so a lot of people are acting like he's somebody just brand new who's out there.

00:23:51.000 He's always been brash.

00:23:52.000 He's always been abrasive.

00:23:53.000 He's always been pretty funny.

00:23:55.000 He's always just been, you know, the larger-than-life character, and he's continued to do that as the president.

00:24:00.000 I mean, personally, I think he's very funny.

00:24:03.000 I think he's very, very funny.

00:24:04.000 Do I agree with absolutely everything he says?

00:24:06.000 No.

00:24:07.000 But do I think it's good that someone's in there kind of breaking the matrix, in a way?

00:24:12.000 Yeah, I do think it's good and in terms of his policies and the way the country seems to be going in terms of the economy and jobs and stuff like that.

00:24:21.000 Seems to be doing a decent job to me.

00:24:24.000 Hasn't started any super crazy, new crazy wars that I know a lot of people were worried about.

00:24:29.000 You know, I do remember in 2016 when it happened and people were saying, oh gosh, this is going to lead to World War III and it's going to be nuking North Korea and we're going to be in all these fights and battles and all that.

00:24:38.000 And I don't see it happening.

00:24:40.000 I don't see it happening.

00:24:43.000 And in terms of the opposition, They seem to be struggling to get somebody who is better than him.

00:24:49.000 So as far as I'm saying, you know, even if people don't like his personality or don't like some of the things that he said or whatever, it's kind of like, well, who's better?

00:25:00.000 Who's better?

00:25:01.000 If he's that bad, that should be a really easy question to answer.

00:25:05.000 And do you think that he's a racist?

00:25:06.000 I mean, he's obviously made racially insensitive statements.

00:25:09.000 He's said things that I've criticized on racial issues as at the very least blind to the meaning of what he's saying. 0.87

00:25:18.000 The media are obviously all in on this, that he's a white supremacist, that he's a racist.

00:25:22.000 What do you make of that?

00:25:22.000 Yeah, but the media thinks everyone's...

00:25:25.000 That is fair.

00:25:26.000 I don't think that Donald Trump is a racist.

00:25:28.000 I don't know the man personally.

00:25:30.000 I know people who have met him.

00:25:32.000 I don't believe he's a racist, and the fact that he only suddenly became racist to people in 2015, 2016, despite being in the public eye for many decades, is really suspicious to me.

00:25:43.000 In the world of hip-hop, Donald Trump was extremely popular.

00:25:46.000 I don't know how aware you are of this.

00:25:48.000 Not at all, obviously.

00:25:49.000 A lot of rappers, a lot of rappers, bigged up Donald Trump in the night.

00:25:54.000 You should go back and listen to hip hop from, from the nineties and the thousands.

00:25:57.000 Donald Trump was the guy, right?

00:26:00.000 He was the aspirational figure for a lot of these rappers who are entrepreneurial minded, business minded, wanted to go out, hustle, get that money, you know, be the, be the ghetto version of Trump or whatever. 0.61

00:26:11.000 And that's a, you know, I think Jay-Z has a lyric, you know, I'm the hood's equivalent of Trump or something like that.

00:26:16.000 Right.

00:26:17.000 And then in again, in 2015, 2016, all this suddenly changed very, very quickly.

00:26:22.000 And I think a lot of that was was media driven.

00:26:25.000 So when it comes to that, I don't think he's a racist.

00:26:27.000 I don't think he's a white supremacist.

00:26:29.000 I think that he says dumb, insensitive stuff sometimes that can certainly be It certainly gives his opponents and people who already don't like him in the media a way to take something he said and give it a racial sort of twist even when there wasn't. 0.94

00:26:49.000 A great example would be, I don't know, like the thing he said about Baltimore being rat infested. 0.85

00:26:53.000 To me, that has zero racial connotations at all.

00:26:56.000 If someone says a place is rat infested, I'm just like, okay, it's a rat infested, right?

00:27:00.000 But then people were saying, oh, he used the word infested.

00:27:02.000 That somehow implies, I mean, that's a pretty racist interpretation of it.

00:27:07.000 If you're saying, oh, he said that because, I was like, my brain didn't even go, you know what I mean?

00:27:13.000 My brain didn't even go that way.

00:27:15.000 So I think sometimes they, you know, that he's had like maybe one or two statements where it's been like, mm, that was borderline.

00:27:21.000 But I don't think, I think it's more, I think he's been occasionally insensitive.

00:27:26.000 He's insensitive in a lot of ways.

00:27:28.000 He can be insensitive towards women or towards minority demographics or anything.

00:27:34.000 I just think he's an equal opportunities offender. 0.97

00:27:36.000 I don't think it's targeted.

00:27:38.000 Okay, we're going to go after that group of people or that group of people or anything like that.

00:27:42.000 I just think he says a lot of stuff.

00:27:43.000 He tweets a lot of stuff. 1.00

00:27:45.000 Some of it is dumb. 0.98

00:27:47.000 But like I said, I don't know the man personally. 0.95

00:27:50.000 But given what I do know, I don't think that's what's in his heart.

00:27:53.000 So you mentioned rap, so now we have to talk about it.

00:27:55.000 Let's do it.

00:27:56.000 The elephant in the room is that I have tweeted many times about how much I hate rap.

00:27:59.000 So my view of this is shaped by the fact that I have the cultural profile of a Bond villain.

00:28:03.000 Meaning that if I drank alcohol, it would be brandy from a snifter.

00:28:08.000 I've played classical violin since I was five years old.

00:28:10.000 I own a nice violin.

00:28:11.000 My dad is a professional pianist.

00:28:13.000 We play Brahms together.

00:28:15.000 I grew up listening to classical music almost entirely, some Broadway, maybe, well, not maybe, so a lot of classic jazz like Oscar Peterson.

00:28:23.000 But apparently, number one, do you think that it's racist not to like rap?

00:28:27.000 Because I've been told that if I do not like rap, then this is because I do not like black people, which I find shocking since I particularly like jazz, which is a black art form.

00:28:35.000 So can we just assuage my fears here that I'm not a racist for not liking rap?

00:28:40.000 And then you can convince me that I'm actually wrong about rap.

00:28:42.000 Yeah, no, I think you're wrong.

00:28:43.000 I definitely don't think it's racist.

00:28:47.000 Uh, no.

00:28:48.000 This is the thing.

00:28:49.000 People say such crazy stuff.

00:28:52.000 I don't get how someone can jump... Also, Twitter has changed in radical ways. 0.96

00:28:56.000 Like, it used to be that 10 years ago you could make a joke about rap not being music, and you're stupid if you disagree, and people were like, ah, that's a joke. 0.99

00:29:02.000 And now it's like, no, you meant that you hate black people. 0.99

00:29:05.000 It's like, whoa, where did that come from? 0.96

00:29:06.000 People really read non-existent malice and non-existent interpretations into things people say.

00:29:14.000 It's just a weird trend, which I do hope goes away, because it's really annoying.

00:29:20.000 And also, it makes it difficult to take those words seriously, okay?

00:29:25.000 If someone, you know, you're an Orthodox Jew, if someone says that you're a Nazi, or you're a white supremacist, or I've been called a white supremacist, if someone, you know, calls everything racist, everything sexist, then it really dilutes those terms to the point where I don't even know what these things mean anymore.

00:29:41.000 Everybody's been called far right.

00:29:42.000 Everybody's been called all right.

00:29:44.000 If someone actually is legitimately far right or a legitimate neo-nazi, I'd like to know who that person is.

00:29:51.000 But if you're just going to call everybody that, then you're just providing cover for the real bad guys.

00:29:55.000 So I do wish people would kind of chill on that kind of rhetoric.

00:29:58.000 Okay, so my case against rap is, I have the musical case against rap, and then I'll get to the cultural case.

00:30:04.000 So the musical case against rap is that, in my view, and the view of my music theorist father who went to music school, there are three elements to music.

00:30:14.000 There is harmony, there is melody, and there is rhythm.

00:30:17.000 And rap only fulfills one of these, the rhythm section.

00:30:20.000 There's not a lot of melody, and there's not a lot of harmony.

00:30:23.000 And thus it is basically effectively spoken rhythm.

00:30:26.000 And so it's not actually a form of music.

00:30:29.000 It's a form of rhythmic speaking.

00:30:32.000 And so beyond the subjectivity of me just not enjoying rap all that much, what I've said before is it's not music.

00:30:39.000 So tell me why I'm wrong.

00:30:41.000 Well there's certainly melody in the beats and even some rappers rapping slash singing certainly has a melody.

00:30:49.000 I'm not a particularly melodic rapper myself there are artists who sort of sing rap a lot more but I'd certainly say in terms of the the production there's a lot of Harmony and melody in there.

00:31:03.000 In terms of rapping itself, obviously rapping is a different art from singing, so the focus is on the rhythm rather than on the melodies and the harmonies by intention, otherwise you'd be singing.

00:31:15.000 I'm not too great at harmony and melody, and people don't want to, nobody would pay to see me on stage singing.

00:31:22.000 But in terms of the lyricism and the rhythm, that's really where the skill lies.

00:31:30.000 So as an art form, it's a really unique form of music in a lot of ways.

00:31:35.000 One, I think, is that you've just got the space to express yourself.

00:31:41.000 And in hip-hop, you can really rap about anything.

00:31:44.000 You can make a song about absolutely anything.

00:31:46.000 You can make a political rap song.

00:31:49.000 You can make a rap song about love or romance.

00:31:53.000 Any topic.

00:31:55.000 Lots of genres of music.

00:31:56.000 You're somewhat restricted.

00:31:57.000 In terms of what you can talk about and express lyrically.

00:32:02.000 Whereas in hip-hop, that's just totally wide open.

00:32:04.000 And as I'm sure you know, people use that for a whole bunch of different things.

00:32:07.000 You've got your gangster rap.

00:32:09.000 You've got your positive sort of conscious rap.

00:32:13.000 You've got your deep stuff.

00:32:15.000 You can tell life stories.

00:32:16.000 You can just share opinions on pretty much anything.

00:32:19.000 And so it's really, really unique in that sense.

00:32:24.000 And yeah, I think it's a little bit like They're very different music forms, but I think it's a little bit like country in that regard, in the way that you can kind of make a song about anything, and the people who write the lyrics tend to be the same people who perform them.

00:32:39.000 Whereas in genres like pop and even rock, it's not uncommon to have a separate songwriter who then provides that to the person who sings it.

00:32:46.000 So with hip-hop, what you're really getting is the artist's own expression.

00:32:51.000 So I can go away, I could write a song, and what someone's listening to is really just The mind of Zuby, just like they can listen to this conversation, this interview, and they're getting what's going on in my mind.

00:33:02.000 It's the same if they go and they listen to the lyrics of my songs.

00:33:04.000 They know, okay, this is the story he's telling.

00:33:07.000 This is where he's coming from.

00:33:09.000 That's where his heart is.

00:33:11.000 In terms of the music aspects to it, whether or not you like that and it vibes with you and you're feeling with that that's that's that's totally subjective so my other kind of artistic criticism of rap is maybe a stereotype about how rap is written

00:33:23.000 so i have this this kind of theory and it holds true across all musical form which is that art and craft are not in opposition but very often they seem to be placed in opposition meaning there's a and this leads to my criticism of rock along the same lines as my criticism of rap which was that rock was an actual degradation of skill for for music from jazz which was actually a degradation of skill from classical.

00:33:45.000 The amount of talent and work, mostly work, that you have to put into mastering a classical instrument is a lot higher than the amount of talent and work you'd have to put into playing three chords in a rock song.

00:33:58.000 And so when it comes to the lyrics in rap, maybe, I'm sure, part of it is because I just don't have a lot of experience.

00:34:04.000 to love rap but it seems like that there's a lot of praise that's put out for particular rappers who it seems to me are doing something that doesn't seem innately very difficult it doesn't seem like the the lyrics have exact rhyme i have this criticism of even i mean in musical theater this is one of my criticisms of lemmanuel miranda actually is that he doesn't use exact rhyme enough he uses near rhymes and he and he uses sort of easier forms of rhyme very often and stacks lyrics in order to make things sound more complex than they are and then you watch movies about rap

00:34:32.000 and it seems like somebody just gets up on the mic and they just go and it's and how much work actually goes into crafting a rap lyric how much time has to go into figuring out the rhythmic scheme and the rhyme scheme because i think that would change my opinion somewhat on how rap is constructed Sure, this really depends on the rapper, to be totally honest with you.

00:34:50.000 There are rappers who, I would totally agree, do not spend much time or thought or energy in crafting what they're saying.

00:35:00.000 They just put something together and it's a very basic rhyme scheme and they just go there and it'll be quite repetitive.

00:35:05.000 In terms of the content, there's not really any decent message in there.

00:35:09.000 They're not telling any story.

00:35:11.000 They're not using any clever wordplay or anything like that.

00:35:14.000 So to me, that's what makes a bad rapper.

00:35:17.000 If you were to take a great rapper, I don't know, Nas, Eminem, Jay-Z, someone like that, whose lyrics are a lot more complex and in-depth than, you know, I'd like to, or myself, of course, I'd like to think, a lot of thought goes, a lot goes into it.

00:35:32.000 A lot goes into it in terms of the rhythmic patterns and what you'd call the flow, which is essentially how you, how you ride the beat.

00:35:39.000 So if you've got a beat that's faster tempo, you might rap at double, double the speed and have your, you're, you're, you're essentially using your voice kind of like a percussive instrument.

00:35:50.000 Mm-hmm.

00:35:50.000 It might be more comparable to drumming, say, than to...

00:35:50.000 Mm-hmm.

00:35:56.000 In terms of the delivery, but then in terms of the actual lyrical content, for me, for a great artist, that's where the real thought comes in.

00:36:04.000 And again, when it comes to hip-hop, if you're making a hip-hop song, average rap song probably has eight to ten times the amount of lyrics, if not more, as pretty much any other genre.

00:36:15.000 So you've got a lot of stuff.

00:36:17.000 Typically you'll have three 16-bar verses, so you've got a lot of space to say a lot of stuff if you want to.

00:36:24.000 Some artists don't say much.

00:36:26.000 I like to think, you know, in all my songs, I put a lot of thought into what I'm saying and the message I'm trying to communicate out there.

00:36:32.000 And there's a lot of wordplay and a lot of metaphors and similes and just trying to do clever stuff with the writing.

00:36:40.000 So, again, I think that the real answer to that is it depends on the rapper.

00:36:45.000 Just like you could have somebody who does a very basic form of dance or playing an instrument and they're just, okay, I'm going to just play the piano like that.

00:36:55.000 Yeah, like that versus someone who's a proper virtuoso.

00:36:58.000 You do get the same thing in hip-hop and with rap.

00:37:03.000 It's funny, with my parents, my parents used to be a little bit disparaging of rap and hip-hop until I started doing it.

00:37:09.000 And they saw me performing and were like, how is he doing that?

00:37:12.000 That's where they're really like, okay, that's a talent.

00:37:15.000 Okay, so let's talk about the cultural critique of hip-hop and rap.

00:37:19.000 So, for a long time in the United States, there's been criticism, and I think some of it is well-founded, about the messages that are purveyed by hip-hop and rap.

00:37:28.000 And, you know, there are folks like Candace Owens on the right who have critiqued my critique of hip-hop.

00:37:33.000 They've said that I'm not really seeing a lot of the deeper messages in hip-hop.

00:37:36.000 She particularly likes to talk about the value of capitalism and success in hip-hop.

00:37:40.000 She says that, to cite the Trump example, the emulation of success in hip hop is really strong, and she sees that as a strong positive.

00:37:48.000 From the outside, when I listen to hip hop, I don't hear a lot of family-oriented messages.

00:37:53.000 In fact, I hear a lot of messages that are degrading to women. 1.00

00:37:56.000 I hear messages that push violence, that are disparaging to the police.

00:38:00.000 I hear messages very often that seem to treat relationships between men and women as something disposable or glorify mistreatment of women.

00:38:10.000 And that's not a criticism of your art, because obviously I want to discuss your messages in a second.

00:38:14.000 But the art form overall, which obviously has a major impact, not just on black young people, but is disproportionately listened to actually by white young people.

00:38:23.000 I don't particularly like a lot of the messages that I hear in hip hop.

00:38:27.000 By the way, I've made similar criticisms of pop music, which I think does a lot of the same things.

00:38:31.000 What do you make of that particular critique?

00:38:34.000 You're not going to get a lot of pushback from me on that one because I think you're correct.

00:38:40.000 Especially in terms of the popular mainstream stuff that gets pushed out there hard.

00:38:45.000 A lot of the stuff that gets the promotion that people will hear on the radio or in nightclubs and stuff like that.

00:38:51.000 A lot of it does have a lot of negative messaging.

00:38:54.000 Part of that is the reason why from the very beginning of my music career I was like, I'm going to do the opposite of that.

00:39:00.000 Because it's something that's there.

00:39:02.000 I think that I think it's a truth in entertainment in general.

00:39:07.000 I don't think that's something that is, I think compared to other genres, you might get more of that in the hip-hop art form.

00:39:14.000 And I think a lot of that is down to the artists and where they're coming from and whatnot.

00:39:18.000 But a lot of it is also what people want to, it's a weird supply and demand thing as well.

00:39:24.000 This is something I've questioned myself for a very long time, is how much of this is what people are demanding, and so artists are just continuing to supply it because it works.

00:39:36.000 People might say, oh, we don't like the misogynistic messages, we don't like the drugs, we don't like the violence, but people are dancing to it and buying it and purchasing it.

00:39:44.000 People are going to keep on making it.

00:39:46.000 So I don't know how much of it is just that versus how much is, you know, record companies and people in power in the entertainment industry and whatnot wanting those to be the messages that get the push out there, because there's a lot of positive hip-hop out there.

00:40:00.000 There's a lot of positive hip-hop that's not degrading at all, that's non-violent, that's not profane, but a lot of the time it doesn't get the same push, it doesn't get the same shine, it's not being embraced by all these mainstream channels, and that's something that For twenty years, I've been looking at it and thinking, hmm, that's interesting.

00:40:18.000 Why is that?

00:40:18.000 So I don't really know how much of it is artist-driven versus fan-driven.

00:40:23.000 Beyond hip-hop, like I said, I think it's an issue in entertainment in general, whether you're talking all forms of music, certainly pop music as well, like you said, video games, movies, TV.

00:40:35.000 There's a lot of stuff that's put out there which is certainly questionable.

00:40:43.000 And it's a funny one for me because to some degree I'm like, it's just entertainment.

00:40:48.000 And you know, the truth is, for whatever reason, we humans, I think especially guys, do like To some degree, we do like violence.

00:40:58.000 We do like sex.

00:40:59.000 We do like all that.

00:41:00.000 We do like gangster movies where you're kind of rooting for the bad guy and whatnot, which that doesn't mean you go out there in real life and that's the way.

00:41:09.000 You go out there and you behave that way.

00:41:10.000 You see this thing where people are saying, oh, do violent video games cause people to commit violence and stuff.

00:41:15.000 The evidence doesn't seem to show that's the case, but I'll do stuff in a video game that I wouldn't dream of.

00:41:20.000 I wouldn't dream of doing it in real life.

00:41:22.000 I mean, I don't even swear.

00:41:23.000 I don't even swear.

00:41:25.000 I've been listening to profane hip-hop for the best part of my life, and I don't even cuss.

00:41:29.000 And I get people who are like, how can you listen to all this?

00:41:31.000 And I'm like, it doesn't affect me.

00:41:34.000 It's just entertainment to me.

00:41:35.000 It gets me pumped up to do my workouts in the gym or whatever.

00:41:38.000 So I know myself personally, I'm certainly able to separate that.

00:41:42.000 Can everybody do it?

00:41:43.000 I don't know, really.

00:41:45.000 How much effect does it have on people?

00:41:47.000 I don't know, really.

00:41:48.000 I do wonder whether rap does, just as an art form, because it is verbally based.

00:41:52.000 You can listen to a pop song and you can sing the pop song without knowing any of the lyrics, whereas it would be impossible to do that with a rap song because, obviously, the lyrics are the entirety of the song, or at least the vast majority of the song.

00:42:04.000 I wonder if the verbalization and the identification with the words is stronger in hip-hop than it would be with other genres, for example.

00:42:11.000 It could be.

00:42:12.000 It could be.

00:42:13.000 I mean, the way I look at it, to be totally honest, is I make positive, inspirational, motivational hip-hop music.

00:42:21.000 And I've had people tell me, in real life and online, that they've been directly influenced or inspired in a positive way by my music.

00:42:29.000 So if that can exist, It must be possible that the opposite can also exist and that there can be negative influences and impacts from certain messages being put out there in hip hop and other forms of art.

00:42:44.000 So can you talk about one of the, because I'm sure most of my listeners and most of the people who are watching this haven't heard any of your stuff.

00:42:51.000 So can you talk about some of the messages that you include in some of your songs?

00:42:53.000 Yeah, sure thing.

00:42:54.000 So the overarching theme of my music really is about, um, Individuality.

00:43:01.000 Authenticity.

00:43:03.000 Honesty.

00:43:04.000 Pursuing your dreams.

00:43:06.000 Overcoming obstacles.

00:43:08.000 I like to share my own story.

00:43:12.000 So every album is sort of a snapshot of where I was at that particular stage of my life and my career and trying to express that.

00:43:20.000 Every single song is different.

00:43:22.000 I've got some songs where the message is Quite light, and it's not, obviously, this is like a super positive, inspirational song, but I've got some where I think it's a lot clearer, and certainly if you listen to the entire body of work, the full album, I think most people would come away thinking, okay, that was an inspirational, positive thing.

00:43:44.000 I mean, the truth is, in life, you've got good and bad, you've got positive and negative, not everything is happy-go-lucky, you know?

00:43:51.000 Yeah, so you've gotta have that, that balance and that side of things.

00:43:56.000 Sometimes you are feeling mad.

00:43:57.000 Sometimes you are feeling aggressive.

00:43:59.000 Sometimes you're feeling upset and you can go and express that in a song.

00:44:01.000 But at the times, cool, like something great has happened.

00:44:04.000 I wanna celebrate, I'm feeling triumphant.

00:44:06.000 I just wanna be, sometimes in hip hop you even just wanna big yourself up.

00:44:09.000 You just wanna be like, you know what?

00:44:12.000 I'm doing something great.

00:44:13.000 I'm the best.

00:44:14.000 I'm dope.

00:44:15.000 You get that as well.

00:44:16.000 You just get that braggadocious kind of rap where it's just like, yeah, I'm awesome.

00:44:20.000 In hip hop, you can just make a whole song about how cool you are.

00:44:23.000 Most rappers have several of these.

00:44:27.000 Yeah, it could be deemed like a little bit cocky or arrogant or whatever, but it does also pump people up, right?

00:44:32.000 It makes people listen to that, whether they're going to work or they're in the gym or whatever, and it motivates and it inspires them when you're hearing the story, especially with, you know, some of these rappers' stories.

00:44:44.000 I think it's always interesting to look at A lot of times, and even what we've been doing is focusing on the words, because a lot of people ask about rappers and, I guess, other public figures as role models.

00:44:55.000 You know, what's the degree of responsibility?

00:44:57.000 Should a rapper be a role model?

00:45:00.000 That kind of thing.

00:45:01.000 And to me, I mean, my biggest role models are my parents.

00:45:05.000 God bless them.

00:45:06.000 But in terms of rappers, there are a lot of rappers I am inspired by.

00:45:11.000 Some of them, not so much by their lyrics, but by what they've actually done in their life.

00:45:15.000 And I do sometimes wish that they themselves, and even the media, sort of focused on that a little bit more.

00:45:21.000 I mean, I sort of feel this way about Jay-Z and Beyonce, honestly.

00:45:23.000 Like, I look at them, they're unbelievably successful.

00:45:25.000 They're married, they have kids together.

00:45:27.000 They seem like they're living a pretty traditional lifestyle, but when I listen to any of their music, that is not exactly what I'm getting from their music.

00:45:33.000 Yeah, I mean, the guy literally went from selling drugs in the streets of New York to becoming, he's a billionaire now.

00:45:44.000 And independently, he created his own company, put out his own records, created his own clothing line, beverage brands, all these sponsorship deals.

00:45:53.000 He's done all this crazy stuff.

00:45:55.000 He owns a basketball team.

00:45:57.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:45:59.000 That's super inspiring.

00:46:01.000 Like, in that sense, that's totally a role model.

00:46:03.000 If you're going to go and listen to, you know, Big Pimpin' and go through, come through the lyrics of that and try to find, like, somebody, then yeah, maybe not.

00:46:12.000 So, you know, even guys like 50 Cent, you know, in terms of being a businessman and an entrepreneur and really going from rags to riches, something to nothing, super duper inspiring.

00:46:23.000 In a way, I wish they'd put more of that directly in their music, because I kind of feel there's two ways to look at them.

00:46:29.000 You can focus on the lyrics and some of the words and some of the things they're saying and be like, ooh, that's a terrible role model.

00:46:35.000 But you could also look at what they've actually done and their life story and be like, oh wow, this person is...

00:46:41.000 I mean, I've heard the same thing.

00:46:42.000 I feel the same way about Snoop Dogg, frankly.

00:46:43.000 I mean, the guy has been incredibly successful.

00:46:45.000 He's got a really close relationship with his kids, as far as I'm aware.

00:46:49.000 And again, you listen to the music and it's something completely different.

00:46:52.000 And I wish that every successful person follows a similar path, which is you work hard and you keep your head down and you do something you're good at and people want you to do.

00:47:02.000 And then when it comes to the messages that are purveyed, it's almost In many cases, the complete opposite of that.

00:47:09.000 It's rebel against the system.

00:47:10.000 The system is the problem.

00:47:11.000 It's like, well, it was within the system that you became the owner of an NBA team.

00:47:14.000 So I'm pretty sure that the system is probably you should just encourage people to do what you did, which is to work hard and make creative decisions and invest in yourself.

00:47:22.000 Yeah, like I said, I wish, I don't know all these guys personally, I wish they would make that more explicit and prominent in their music and their messaging, because sometimes you'll watch an interview with them, and you'll listen to the songs, and it's almost like quite a different person.

00:47:39.000 In the interviews, you're really getting that story and that positive vibe, but then sometimes in the music, not all the time.

00:47:47.000 Lots of these guys do have some positive songs here and there and whatnot.

00:47:52.000 Yeah, it's a tricky one.

00:47:53.000 At the end of the day, like we've been saying, I can only control what I do and the content that I put out there.

00:47:59.000 I can't police everybody else, nor what I really want to be able to.

00:48:05.000 But I think there's a lot of positive and inspiration that can be gleaned if you sort of look at it the right way, or you look at it a certain way.

00:48:13.000 I don't mean to put you on the spot or make you do a show for us or anything, but what's your favorite song that you've written and what's your favorite lyric?

00:48:20.000 Wow.

00:48:21.000 One of my favorite songs, there's a few of them, one of my favorite songs I've written lyrically is called Ill.

00:48:28.000 And the second verse of that is definitely one of my favorites.

00:48:33.000 I'm going to see if I can... I'm not in like rap mode right now.

00:48:36.000 Exactly.

00:48:38.000 I'm putting you on the spot.

00:48:40.000 I'll whip out my violin.

00:48:42.000 Or even the first verse.

00:48:44.000 I've got a lot to give, so I can't live with trial later.

00:48:47.000 Life's got a lot to live in, so I give to die major.

00:48:50.000 I moonwalk through the fire, laugh now, cry later.

00:48:52.000 I've got pupils to inspire, so I hope to die later.

00:48:55.000 A couple words can turn a total stranger to a neighbor, like a little thought can turn a tiny building to a scraper.

00:49:00.000 I wonder if the biggest trees have got the biggest haters, like we started out from seeds, now we're the source of all this paper.

00:49:06.000 So yeah, I've got a lot of stuff like that.

00:49:09.000 It's so weird for me to shift from talking mode into rap mode.

00:49:12.000 It's really weird.

00:49:14.000 It's like a different part of my brain I'm trying to access.

00:49:17.000 So yeah, that's one of my favorites, Ill.

00:49:20.000 I've got another song called Remember the Name, which is one of my favorites.

00:49:24.000 Another song called Glory.

00:49:25.000 So those are probably three of my favorite ones out there.

00:49:28.000 I've put out a lot of music, so it's hard to...

00:49:31.000 How are your parents dealing with the fact that you decided not to be a management consultant and be a rapper instead?

00:49:35.000 Well, they were at my last show, so they're definitely supportive.

00:49:38.000 They're very, very supportive of what I do.

00:49:40.000 And yeah, they trust me.

00:49:44.000 They believe in me.

00:49:45.000 They know what my message is as well.

00:49:47.000 And they're genuine fans of the music itself.

00:49:50.000 And they like what I do.

00:49:52.000 They know the message I'm putting out there.

00:49:53.000 They've seen how it impacts people and how it's had a positive impact on young people and whatnot.

00:49:57.000 So they're truly supportive.

00:50:00.000 And I'm very, very grateful for it.

00:50:03.000 Especially as Nigerian parents, I know that it's quite rare for, you know, to have a son who went to Oxford and then have him go and pursue something as artistic and creative as music.

00:50:14.000 But they're behind me 100%.

00:50:15.000 My family really supports me, which is a huge blessing, because if they didn't, I think things would be a lot more difficult.

00:50:21.000 Okay, so I like to fancy myself, you know, a man with the body of a Greek god.

00:50:25.000 I work out every day. 1.00

00:50:27.000 And then I meet somebody like you, and I feel like a fat ass, frankly. 0.99

00:50:30.000 So how does your exercise routine work? 1.00

00:50:32.000 Yeah.

00:50:34.000 I lift a lot of heavy weights, a lot of compound exercises, deadlifts, bench press, squat, overhead press, pull-ups, stuff like that.

00:50:41.000 That's what 80, 90% of my workouts consist of.

00:50:45.000 And then the diet, depending on what I'm trying to do, whether I'm trying to build or gain or just maintain.

00:50:52.000 These last several years, it's really been more about maintenance and then occasionally going on a cut to shed some body fat if I've put on a few pounds over the winter, like most people naturally do.

00:51:02.000 So it's fairly simple, but the thing that's really key is consistency.

00:51:09.000 Just like with everything else, both with training and with diet, it's really about consistency.

00:51:12.000 I mean, I've been going to the gym now for about 16 or 17 years.

00:51:17.000 I started really early.

00:51:18.000 I didn't really know what I was doing in my mid-teens, but I used to play rugby.

00:51:21.000 So I started because I wanted to get a little more buff for rugby so I could deal the damage rather than sustain it.

00:51:27.000 My programming is pretty simple.

00:51:29.000 It's not super complicated.

00:51:31.000 In my book, I keep things pretty simple.

00:51:33.000 I don't want to make it really complex and in-depth.

00:51:38.000 I don't like to throw out stuff that people don't need and won't necessarily understand.

00:51:42.000 But yeah, primarily compound lifts.

00:51:46.000 Decently high intensity in terms of the weights, not doing too much, not doing too many what I call fluff exercises.

00:51:52.000 So just little things that won't get you much bang for your buck.

00:51:55.000 Just focusing on the big, heavy, hard stuff.

00:51:57.000 What are the fluff exercises?

00:51:58.000 Fluff exercises like tricep kickbacks and I don't know, wrist curls and yeah, just anything involving pink dumbbells.

00:52:08.000 So yeah, I focus on that and then just keep the diet on point.

00:52:11.000 What's your diet like?

00:52:13.000 Um, quite flexible.

00:52:15.000 Quite flexible.

00:52:16.000 I kind of follow a little bit of an 80-20 rule, which is that as long as 80% of what I'm eating is nutritious and good, then the other 20 can be not super amazing.

00:52:27.000 If I'm trying to lean down, then I'll dial it in a little bit just to, you know, bring my calories down and whatnot.

00:52:32.000 Well, what's normal caloric intake?

00:52:34.000 For me, to maintain my weight, about 3,300, 3,400 a day.

00:52:37.000 If I want to diet, I bring it down to like 2,900, 3,000.

00:52:39.000 How many hours a day are you working out?

00:52:46.000 How do I get into this?

00:52:49.000 Because seriously, I'm working out like an hour a day and then I'm looking at my app and it's like, you have 1,400 calories or you will gain weight.

00:52:58.000 It's like, what the hell?

00:52:59.000 So I can have an apple and a banana and like an almond.

00:53:02.000 No, that's not a thing that's going to happen.

00:53:03.000 Another great thing is intermittent fasting.

00:53:05.000 I don't know if you've ever tried that.

00:53:07.000 I mean, I'm Jewish.

00:53:07.000 That's just part of our religion.

00:53:08.000 But yeah, I mean, how often is an intermittent fast?

00:53:12.000 So I normally have about an eight hour eating window.

00:53:14.000 So I normally fast for about 16 hours a day.

00:53:17.000 And then I'll eat all my calories normally between 10 and 6 or 11 and 7, something like that.

00:53:22.000 And then outside of that, I don't eat or drink heavy meat diet or more vegetables.

00:53:27.000 I eat a good amount of protein, probably about two Roughly a gram per pound of body weight in terms of protein.

00:53:35.000 And then I kind of just fill up the rest of my caloric intake with primarily carbs and some fats.

00:53:41.000 I find that the ratio of those doesn't impact me too much.

00:53:45.000 I need more tips.

00:53:46.000 I need to read your entire book.

00:53:48.000 This sounds fantastic to me, frankly, because I keep hearing I have to eat nothing but vegetables.

00:53:52.000 And I'll be honest, I've given up on the six pack.

00:53:55.000 I just figure it's never going to happen.

00:53:56.000 I'm going to blame it on my body type and my genetics, even though that's probably just giving up on life.

00:54:02.000 Yeah, so it does really what I've tried to lay out in the book is to show that it's not super duper complex and you don't need to eat just rabbit food.

00:54:13.000 You can actually enjoy foods that you like whilst still hitting your numbers and reaching your targets and not to the detriment of your performance and the way you feel and perform and everything like that.

00:54:25.000 So, depending on how big somebody is generally is going to determine how many calories they can have in total along with their activity level.

00:54:33.000 So, if you're bigger and more active, you can kind of get away with eating more naturally and you don't need to be quite as precise and strict as someone who's got only 2,000 calories to work with might.

00:54:48.000 Yeah, the foods themselves are important from a nutritional standpoint, but in terms of just macronutrients and protein, carb, fat breakdown, there's a whole lot of flexibility you can have in there.

00:54:59.000 There's a couple of key rules that matter, and then everything outside of that is sort of details.

00:55:04.000 People get bogged down in the details.

00:55:06.000 People say, what time of the day should I go to the gym?

00:55:09.000 How many meals a day should I eat?

00:55:10.000 How big should I eat?

00:55:12.000 That stuff doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

00:55:16.000 to the gym, when you can get to the gym, in terms of how many meals you eat, that's up to you.

00:55:21.000 Some people prefer six, some people prefer two.

00:55:23.000 I know people who only eat one meal a day.

00:55:25.000 And as long as you're getting the nutrients in there and you're hitting the numbers that you need to be hitting, then you'll be all right.

00:55:33.000 Some people will just feel better with different frequencies of meals.

00:55:36.000 And depending on one's lifestyle, that'll also determine it as well.

00:55:39.000 What do you make of the various fitness crazes?

00:55:42.000 So I know that my trainer has sort of gotten into CrossFit and has me doing some of the CrossFit exercises.

00:55:47.000 It sounds like, I mean, you've been saying that you're picking up very heavy weights.

00:55:50.000 I've always been fearful that if I pick up heavy weights, I'm going to totally injure myself and rack myself up.

00:55:54.000 What do you make of that?

00:55:56.000 There's a lot of CrossFit jokes out there.

00:55:56.000 CrossFit.

00:55:59.000 I'm sure I'll show you.

00:56:00.000 I'm sure.

00:56:01.000 I'm sure you've heard a few of them.

00:56:03.000 Well, you have to brag about it, right?

00:56:05.000 Within five seconds of being in a social setting, you have to say that you need a crossfit.

00:56:08.000 It's like being a vegan.

00:56:09.000 Exactly.

00:56:10.000 Pit level vegan.

00:56:11.000 We'll only eat things that don't cast a shadow.

00:56:14.000 Yeah.

00:56:15.000 So I think ultimately anything that gets people active and going and exercising, as far as I'm concerned, is a good thing.

00:56:23.000 In terms of the way I train, like I said, I keep it kind of fairly simple, old school.

00:56:29.000 Meat and potatoes.

00:56:30.000 Lift heavy objects.

00:56:31.000 Put them down.

00:56:32.000 And that primarily works.

00:56:36.000 But in terms of the crazes, again, it's...

00:56:41.000 I don't want to be too critical, because if something works and people enjoy it, then keep doing it.

00:56:41.000 I don't know.

00:56:51.000 Lots of my training is powerlifting based, and powerlifting is only based around squatting, deadlifting, and bench pressing, which I understand for a lot of people will get boring really, really quickly.

00:57:01.000 And if you're not competing in those lifts, then you Don't need to just limit yourself to those ones.

00:57:06.000 In terms of lifting heavy though, I mean, heavy is firstly a relative thing.

00:57:10.000 So I recommend people lifting relatively heavy to what they're capable of.

00:57:15.000 So that could be anywhere from 70 to 85% of their one rep maximum, for example.

00:57:22.000 And you might do that for three reps or five reps or six reps or something like that.

00:57:26.000 In terms of injury risk, it's not huge as long as you lift correctly.

00:57:32.000 A lot of the injuries come from people just not doing the lift the right way.

00:57:37.000 So that's not a problem with the weights or lifting in general.

00:57:41.000 Did you work with a trainer for a while to make sure that you were lifting correctly?

00:57:44.000 Or you just sort of figured it out?

00:57:46.000 At the very, very early stage, I would talk to the gym instructors and just make sure I was doing stuff right, but it's largely self-taught for me.

00:57:55.000 It's largely self-taught, and I've done it for so long now.

00:57:57.000 I mean, I've also done a personal training qualification, so I'm actually qualified to train other people.

00:58:04.000 I've just spent, I've done my 10,000.

00:58:05.000 I've put in my 10,000 hours.

00:58:08.000 So for me at this point, it's kind of like simple.

00:58:10.000 This is how you do a squat.

00:58:11.000 This is how you do a deadlift.

00:58:12.000 This is how you do a bench press and whatnot.

00:58:14.000 But I think a lot of people don't do the exercises correctly.

00:58:17.000 And you get a lot of people who want to lift with the ego rather than with the muscles.

00:58:21.000 So they'll rack up 50% more weight than they should probably have on the bar. 0.72

00:58:25.000 And then they'll start bringing their back into it and lifting, arching their back on a bench press and doing all this crazy stuff.

00:58:32.000 doing these quarter squats instead of actually going all the way down.

00:58:34.000 There's a lot of things that people do, and it's best to, again, strip it back to the basics and just learn to do the movements properly.

00:58:41.000 And then once you've got that down, then you can start sort of cranking it up.

00:58:46.000 I mean, as somebody who's obviously very health-oriented, what do you make of the body positivity movement?

00:58:49.000 So this has obviously become a big thing lately, right?

00:58:51.000 You've got all these people who are basically saying, however you look, that's fine and it's good, and any critique of anybody along any lines is a bad idea.

00:59:01.000 And, I mean, frankly, I found that it is feeling fat that has gotten me to go to the gym.

00:59:05.000 That feeling out of shape and feeling like I don't look good is a bigger moment.

00:59:10.000 Whenever people say, well, you want to work out so that you feel healthy.

00:59:12.000 And it's like, well, but you don't know what it's like to feel healthy until you actually feel healthy, especially when you start working out. 0.90

00:59:16.000 It feels like garbage, right?

00:59:17.000 I mean, when you first start, it just feels awful. 0.91

00:59:21.000 And then later, it actually starts to feel really good.

00:59:23.000 And you always hear that from people, but that's not much of a motivator.

00:59:25.000 It feels like for a lot of folks, looking good is actually kind of an important thing.

00:59:28.000 And as we get rid of those standards, it may not be a great thing for the health of the society.

00:59:33.000 Yeah, it's weird.

00:59:34.000 I think society in general is trying to get rid of standards for sort of anything, and I think the body positivity thing is just another symptom of that, sort of another branch of the, let's just do away with aspiring to anything.

00:59:47.000 Doesn't matter what you look like, doesn't matter how much you weigh, you can still be healthy.

00:59:50.000 It's like, that's not actually true.

00:59:53.000 So firstly, my first condemnation of it is that that's just not It's not correct.

00:59:58.000 You can't actually be healthy at any size.

01:00:01.000 That's not true.

01:00:02.000 Like if you are morbidly obese, you're not healthy.

01:00:05.000 You're putting yourself at risk of a lot of diseases, different types of cancers, diabetes, all that kind of stuff.

01:00:10.000 So encouraging or I don't want to say allowing is not the right word.

01:00:15.000 Encouraging.

01:00:16.000 Encouraging or condoning that is not good for individuals, let alone the people outside of them.

01:00:23.000 I live in the UK.

01:00:24.000 You've got the NHS.

01:00:25.000 You've got subsidized medical health care.

01:00:27.000 So actually someone being morbidly obese, that does actually affect other people too, right?

01:00:31.000 Because it costs tens of billions of pounds to the NHS every year.

01:00:36.000 So I don't think that's what you want to be encouraging.

01:00:38.000 Like a lot of these things, I think that A kernel of it comes from a good place of sympathy and kindness and saying, "Yeah, I'm not in favor of bullying people.

01:00:48.000 I don't think you should find someone who's overweight and be pointing at them and saying they're mean or being mean to them or anything like that." But as someone who was previously fat, A lot of people don't know this.

01:01:00.000 As someone who was previously fat, I'm quite glad that I felt a little bit of shame and I wasn't totally happy with how I looked and that was the first thing.

01:01:09.000 It's not what necessarily kept me in the gym, but it's what got me going in the first place of being like, man, I can do better.

01:01:15.000 I can look better.

01:01:16.000 I can feel better.

01:01:17.000 And then it got me started.

01:01:18.000 I started seeing some results and it was like, okay, cool.

01:01:19.000 Just became a habit and kept going with that.

01:01:23.000 I think you should give yourself a reason to be body positive, not just because you exist and you breathe air, but because you've put in some semblance of effort to, you know, you don't need to maximize your appearance and your health, but at least take care of it.

01:01:40.000 You only get one body, and you've got to live with it for the rest of your life.

01:01:43.000 So even if it's not about the aesthetics and what you look like and looking hot and sexy, it's just about actually being healthy and having a working heart that keeps going and your liver and your kidneys and all that stuff, then yeah, do it.

01:01:57.000 Especially if you've got a family or a spouse or whatever, it's even more important because you should want to live a good life, not just for yourself, live a good long life for yourself and your children as well.

01:02:07.000 So in a second, I want to ask you about your religious worldview, which we haven't touched on at all.

01:02:11.000 But first, if you want to hear Zuby's answer, you have to be a Daily Wire subscriber.

01:02:14.000 To subscribe, head on over to dailywire.com, click subscribe, you can hear the end of our conversation over there.

01:02:19.000 Well, Zuby, I really want to thank you for stopping by.

01:02:21.000 Everybody should go check out Zuby's book, Strong Advice, Zuby's guide to fitness for everybody.

01:02:25.000 He's got a podcast as well, Real Talk with Zuby, and listen to his music on Spotify and Apple Music.

01:02:30.000 I'll be giving it a try.

01:02:31.000 Zuby, thanks so much.

01:02:32.000 Really appreciate your time.

01:02:32.000 I appreciate it, Ben.

01:02:33.000 That's all.

01:02:33.000 Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special is directed by Mathis Glover and produced by Jonathan Hay.

01:02:45.000 Executive producer, Jeremy Boren.

01:02:47.000 Associate producer, Colton Haas.

01:02:49.000 Our guests are booked by Caitlin Maynard.

01:02:51.000 Post-production is supervised by Alex Zingaro.

01:02:54.000 Editing by Donovan Fowler.

01:02:56.000 Audio is mixed by Mike Coromino.

01:02:57.000 Hair and makeup is by Jesua Olvera.

01:03:00.000 Title graphics by Cynthia Angulo.

01:03:02.000 The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special is a Daily Wire production.

The Ben Shapiro Show - September 15, 2019

Zuby | The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special Ep. 68

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