The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - China’s Genocide of Uyghurs

00:00:00.000 hello and welcome once again to the blueprint it is canada's conservative podcast i'm your host

00:00:13.840 jamie schmale member of parliament for halliburton for the lakes brock thank you once again for

00:00:18.260 joining us we have new content every single tuesday 1 30 p.m eastern time and with that

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00:01:10.480 so without further ado we have coming back to the show a great friend of the program he's been on many

00:01:16.620 times before garnet jenis the member of parliament for sherwood park fort saskatchewan he's also the

00:01:22.120 shadow minister for international development and human rights we welcome him back garnet thank you

00:01:27.740 jamie it's so great to be with you i i love this platform uh and uh always a pleasure to be part of

00:01:32.920 it so the the main area we're going to be covering is basically building on the conversation we had

00:01:38.060 with michael chong on last week's program and again you can go to any of the platforms on facebook

00:01:42.660 google play itunes spotify castbox if you haven't heard it or watched it yet it might be a good one to

00:01:48.100 to get caught up so we're going to build on that so uh in the meantime though there the report from

00:01:55.080 the canada china committee has come up with a series of recommendations you're on that committee

00:02:00.220 what are some of the recommendations and what happened yes i'll just say first of all last

00:02:04.720 week was a great week in terms of parliament standing up to the government in our system uh

00:02:10.700 parliament elected legislators should be driving the conversation on important issues

00:02:15.480 and pushing the government to respond to what uh what we are hearing from our constituents

00:02:20.660 so we saw that with the vote on the uyghur genocide on monday uh parliamentarians voting even though

00:02:27.740 cabinet refused to participate in that vote uh then on friday pardon me thursday uh we had tabled in the

00:02:34.800 house of commons a report a consensus report respecting reflecting the views of all parties on the

00:02:40.400 special committee on canada china relations on the situation hong kong and again this report uh was

00:02:46.200 really going uh much further on these issues than the government has gone pushing the government to

00:02:51.140 step up uh and take a take a strong response so it calls for sanctions in response to what's happening

00:02:56.580 in hong kong it calls for uh meaningful immigration measures uh to help uh people in especially in the

00:03:04.160 democracy movement be able to uh to seek a safety in canada uh it calls for universal suffrage for people

00:03:10.800 in hong kong in line with uh the commitments that were made at the time of the handover so many very

00:03:16.660 strong recommendations uh that the government really has not been willing to take on up to now

00:03:21.540 uh and conservatives been pushing the government now that we have been able to get uh in the context

00:03:26.640 of that committee at least all party support for what we're seeking uh it's really time for the

00:03:30.800 government to uh to stop dithering and move forward and we hear this so often on the china file

00:03:34.820 uh the government says we're considering this we're considering that we're considering

00:03:38.300 considering everything well time to stop considering and time to start doing something

00:03:42.140 so for those people that may have forgotten about what has been going on in hong kong it's been in

00:03:47.800 and out of the headlines but uh over the past summer it was really front and center because of a number

00:03:52.900 of issues maybe you can just give us a quick quick rundown on on a bit about what is going on just to

00:03:58.460 give some context to to your previous comment absolutely and the way international news often gets

00:04:04.560 covered we hear uh a fragment of a story here and then attention shifts to something else and um

00:04:10.320 and and events don't stop unfolding even if if uh something something else has captured the attention

00:04:16.620 of the of the media so i mean the situation hong kong uh going back is that uh at at the time it was

00:04:23.800 handed over and became uh in a certain sense part of china uh it was under the framework of a of a

00:04:29.980 one country two systems agreement that hong kong would be a part of china but it would be able to

00:04:35.200 maintain its distinct uh political and economic system uh and there has been unfortunately really

00:04:42.300 a steady attack on uh those commitments uh since the beginning but but a real escalation uh under under

00:04:49.960 xi jinping and it has culminated in the the advancement of a national security law so-called uh which

00:04:56.720 which uh effectively uh ends any kind of autonomy for hong kong because it allows under the guise of

00:05:03.040 national security uh the government in uh in beijing to do uh to to do to do virtually anything in terms

00:05:11.540 of uh of exercising its its control and uh there have been many examples since of uh legislators disqualified

00:05:19.580 of people arrested simply for uh things that they've said in in in media so um this is this this movement

00:05:27.980 away from commitments that the government of china had made um and and it's it's it's really striking in

00:05:34.400 terms of its its violation of international law here the government of china uh had had made

00:05:39.580 binding commitments uh you know they as part of this handover uh and now they're they're just totally

00:05:45.160 ignoring those commitments uh so so we need to have a strong response that demonstrates how seriously

00:05:51.060 we take uh the failure of the government of china to adhere to their their international commitments

00:05:56.620 uh if if we don't respond forcefully and effectively when these kinds of violations of human rights

00:06:03.240 international law take place then we're just incentivizing this behavior from the government of

00:06:08.900 china and other actors going forward so this is why when when we see uh the weaker genocide

00:06:13.460 the the horrific situation in hong kong uh acts of of aggression in the south china sea efforts at

00:06:19.820 foreign interference here in canada and around the world uh if we don't respond to those events uh if

00:06:25.000 we don't try to deter those kinds of actions then the situation is going to continue to get worse

00:06:29.160 so there's a few things i want to unpack there one you said right at the beginning and i don't want

00:06:34.420 to kind of lose sight of that we we've always known the the communist party to be quite powerful in china

00:06:40.520 but you said something that was i think very important over the last few years i would say

00:06:45.580 maybe seven you you might argue differently but there's been a real major crackdown on on people

00:06:51.960 what they can do what they can say how they can think and it's always been that way i'm not saying

00:06:56.300 it hasn't but it just seems to be very aggressive and and it also ties into what is going on with the

00:07:02.420 the uyghurs as well yeah so so definitely there's sort of a the one hand and the other hand thing

00:07:08.020 right i i think liberals now are trying to uh overstate the degree to which china has changed

00:07:15.920 in in even the last two years uh because it's it's their way of justifying uh really the the radically

00:07:23.660 pro-appeasement policy they pursued at the beginning of their of their mandate i mean there were

00:07:29.020 discussions uh about having extradition negotiations between canada and china that's that's how far uh

00:07:36.780 the trudeau liberals were prepared to go uh so they they're trying to walk some of those things back

00:07:42.680 a little bit by saying look how much the government of china has has changed in the last couple years and

00:07:48.480 i i mean you know 1989 tiananmen square shooting i mean there's uh there there there are many aspects

00:07:55.240 of this political system that have have uh been been evident in their abuse of human rights going

00:07:59.940 back a long time uh but there's no doubt as well that there are particular policies being pursued by

00:08:06.660 uh the the the xi jinping regime uh a a real extreme hardening uh in terms of the repression

00:08:15.660 uh and uh and escalating violations of human rights as well so um you know we we should recognize

00:08:23.640 that trajectory uh it's not as if there weren't problems before but there is a hardening there

00:08:28.880 uh in the in the just uh the the the the nature of these abuses and the other thing is the

00:08:35.580 international context has changed around what the government of china is doing uh so it at one time

00:08:43.620 the the rhetoric was was a lot around um well the phrase was china's is i think it was deng jaoping

00:08:50.660 who said china's prepared to hide its strength and bide its time uh and uh there was this this

00:08:55.980 rhetoric that was pushed out internationally would say well we're a developing country and um you know

00:09:02.500 we're focusing right now on human rights improvements in in terms of economic development but who knows

00:09:07.760 what might come next it was almost the the implication that uh that that uh you know that that we're

00:09:15.860 we're living in a largely democratic world and and maybe we'll get there so i'm not explicitly saying

00:09:20.920 saying that but there is this kind of implication and now it's the tone is totally different uh it's

00:09:26.780 it's uh from hiding and biting to uh wolf warrior diplomacy uh where the government of china is being

00:09:33.380 much more aggressive in terms of saying you know we we have a communist system um and we're we're not

00:09:40.780 ashamed of it and it's not going to change and we're uh we're we're trying to create a world uh

00:09:45.940 where we can really dominate it and uh favor other actors in other countries uh whose institutions look

00:09:52.540 more like ours um you know and i think that's that's a real betrayal of where a lot of people in china

00:10:00.340 had hoped the system would would move um and it it shows i think that that liberalization

00:10:07.100 is possible but not inevitable you can't presume uh that there's some sort of inevitable trajectory of

00:10:13.280 of history that that things can get better and things can get worse and it really depends on

00:10:17.540 the decisions uh that uh that key actors make it depends on the decisions we make if we send the

00:10:23.920 message now as xi jinping is trying to harden the regime uh that that the this hardening is going to

00:10:30.200 have negative consequences for the government of china and and and for the opportunities for

00:10:34.200 relationship then maybe there will be uh other people within that system who will try to find

00:10:38.960 ways of starting to push back but if we if we continue to uh to take it if we continue to accept

00:10:44.720 this kind of bad behavior uh then we're really um we're we're incentivizing unfortunately further

00:10:52.200 further bad actions so when we talk about basically ignoring the these bad actions uh canada of course

00:10:58.680 within the the cabinet the government abstained from that very important vote calling what is

00:11:03.000 happening to the turkic muslims and the uyghurs is genocide uh basically allowing members of parliament

00:11:08.840 to do the work for the government um this is an important part and i asked michael chong this last

00:11:15.720 week and i'm interested to hear your comments as well uh there are many other countries with a lot more

00:11:21.080 to lose uh with relationships with china such as australia with its proximity and its trading uh history

00:11:28.140 etc that actually made a stand against what is going on in china with the uyghurs and the turkic muslims

00:11:35.820 yes you know the the politics of different countries are different the pressures they're under are are

00:11:41.580 different australia has shown just immense courage uh in the context of uh of of uh their response to

00:11:51.340 what the government of china is is doing um you know we need other countries to to step up and take

00:11:57.980 similar similar steps uh parliamentarians have have shown courage here uh courage that the the that our

00:12:04.700 government has has not shown uh shortly after we passed this resolution the dutch parliament passed a

00:12:10.220 resolution as well um there there is a legitimate desire to act multilaterally to respond to what the

00:12:17.500 government of china is doing but acting multilaterally doesn't mean we sit on our hands and wait wait for

00:12:22.380 somebody else to act it actually means that if we're prepared uh to be strong and lead then it

00:12:27.900 becomes easier for other countries to take uh to take those same steps as well um when it comes to the

00:12:34.140 economic side you know we we need to think uh thought carefully about this issue of strategic dependency

00:12:40.140 right if we're if we're in an economic kind of relationship where key sectors are dependent on the

00:12:46.860 the goodwill of the government of china then we're highly vulnerable to to arbitrary action so so

00:12:52.620 part of protecting ourselves uh you know yes having the courage but also taking the steps uh that are

00:12:58.140 necessary in terms of of uh supporting domestic manufacturing uh cultivating relationship with

00:13:03.340 other with other countries alternatives um this is what can reduce our strategic dependency on the

00:13:09.420 government of china's uh arbitrary whims going forward well that's a beautiful segue into the next topic i

00:13:15.580 want to talk to you about is a statement our leader erin o'toole uh wrote in the national post a bit of

00:13:21.820 an op-ed just talking about the need to deepen its ties with the world's largest democracy that being india

00:13:28.300 and and building on on the the relationship we've had um maybe you can talk a bit about that because

00:13:34.140 that's that's i think is a a really big piece of the overall puzzle that you just mentioned

00:13:38.940 yeah so i mean obviously india is a is a major power um regionally and and globally um if you

00:13:49.020 look at uh kind of the the competition between democracies and uh and the political model advanced

00:13:57.260 by the government of china you can see in asia and africa there are there are some areas where that

00:14:02.220 competition is being waged where there are different internal factions that that are pushing for different

00:14:07.180 kinds of things or or maybe trying to figure out how to integrate uh engagement with the west and

00:14:13.260 with china and then there are there are countries that are more likely to be a kind of bulwark against

00:14:19.740 the the aggressive actions of the um of the government of china uh i know i know india is uh has been

00:14:27.100 very critical of of the belt and road initiative for example which is the initiative of the government of

00:14:31.820 china trying to trying to extend its its influence uh throughout the region uh india has its own uh

00:14:38.140 border uh disputes uh with with china as well uh and um you know i guess one of one of the interesting

00:14:46.220 uh things i just have to throw in here i do a lot of advocacy around the tibet issue uh that the the

00:14:52.940 kind of that the treaty that india relies on for some of its claims it was it was agreement between india and

00:15:00.700 tibet uh and the government of china doesn't want to acknowledge that because they don't want to of

00:15:04.460 course acknowledge the history of uh of tibet uh being on its own prior to the the the prc invasion so

00:15:11.820 a lot a lot of history there and a lot of complexity in terms of the different players um you know i think

00:15:17.100 there are economic opportunities to be uh pursued in terms of relationships with india uh i think canada

00:15:22.700 should look for those opportunities as our as our leader has said um i think you know there's also a

00:15:28.140 lot of opportunities with countries in africa and uh as as china tries to engage more in africa uh but

00:15:35.100 do so in a way that's that's often quite predatory that that's associated with uh with uh creating

00:15:41.100 dependency through debt um we can we can take a different approach which is to uh extend open-handed

00:15:48.780 partnership uh and and to seek to work on on an equal uh non-predatory collaborative basis uh with

00:15:55.580 countries in africa and others in the region i couldn't agree with more especially the strategy

00:15:59.980 around africa and we've all we talked about it with michael chong i think we talked about it the

00:16:03.580 last time you were on the show as well the the predatory nature that china the government of china

00:16:08.300 uses in a lot of the countries that are struggling so i i maybe we'll have you on uh another time to

00:16:14.700 talk about that because i think we could we could talk for quite some time we are running out of time but i

00:16:18.780 i do want to touch on one other issue that being the vaccines it seems to be top of mind

00:16:23.500 our health critic michelle rempel gardner and others on the committee the health committee

00:16:28.140 are doing a fantastic job uh talking about this um we we are noticing that canada is falling further

00:16:34.380 and further behind on kind of the world rankings in terms of getting the vaccine into people's arms

00:16:39.260 obviously that part is provincial but it's securing the vaccine is is the part that the federal government

00:16:44.940 is responsible for but we've also learned that part of the government strategy because it all

00:16:49.660 it put all its eggs in the cancino basket which was linked to to the communist party had links to

00:16:56.140 it um we fell behind in in securing vaccines from other suppliers and and this is a major problem

00:17:02.540 on how this this got rolled out but yet we had to as part of the government of canada raid a a stockpile of

00:17:10.300 vaccines which was meant for the poorer countries that need also need the vaccine so canada decided well

00:17:16.300 we're just going to take some of that and then we'll make our numbers look better yeah so that

00:17:21.820 you're you're referring to the covax uh mechanism and and uh yeah i mean there's some complexity

00:17:27.580 around the mechanics of it in in this sense when covax was originally designed uh a lot of people

00:17:33.420 putting it forward said well let's have uh all countries get our their vaccine supply from covax so

00:17:41.180 the covax can ensure an equal distribution to everybody um you know and it was up to countries

00:17:47.580 to participate in that or not and what what most wealthier countries including uh six out of seven

00:17:53.020 g7 countries said is well maybe we'll donate some money to covax but we're going to ensure our own

00:17:59.260 domestic supply to ensure that that um you know we're we're putting our own nations at the front of

00:18:04.780 the line and um you know people can debate that but at the end of the day it's it's the right of

00:18:09.340 countries to make these decisions that are that are in their own interests and and many countries

00:18:13.580 were saying we will secure the supply we can and and then provide for other countries afterwards what

00:18:19.180 canada has been criticized for doing though is trying to kind of have their cake and eat it too

00:18:23.420 right to say on the one hand we're going to uh try to secure our own supply and on the other hand

00:18:31.180 we're going to draw from covax right so we're not all in on covax uh but we're still using covax

00:18:38.380 right it's you know it's like if you're um if you're going to a potluck and you're eating your

00:18:43.100 own food and eating other people's you know you're you're you're bringing your own meal which you're

00:18:48.060 not sharing and you're you're eating other people's you know you you kind of either got

00:18:51.420 to be in one or in the other that's that's kind of and so the government has tried to muddy the

00:18:55.820 waters a bit by saying oh the purpose of covax is is is for sharing well i mean yes and no but

00:19:01.900 it's a bit bit more complex than that um look this this just demonstrates the government's

00:19:06.780 failures when it comes to vaccines and from an international affairs perspective you know

00:19:11.580 countries are gaining a lot of capital if they're able to supply the rest of the world after supplying

00:19:17.580 their own populations the countries that are ahead on vaccines you know big benefits to their own

00:19:23.820 their own country but secondary to that they're also building up international political capital

00:19:29.260 by being able to contribute to the response elsewhere and unfortunately it just comes back to the

00:19:35.020 government's failure on vaccines failure to secure the production the supply we needed

00:19:39.420 um it's it's hurting canadians we know the impact of that uh but it's also having negative implications

00:19:45.340 in terms of of uh the fact that we're drawing from covax instead of if we had been further ahead

00:19:50.540 where other countries are going to be which is being able to to contribute earlier on in the process

00:19:55.180 garnett we've gone way over time but amazing topic we'll have to have you back again to talk even

00:20:00.140 further about it any parting words i always give the guests the last word so maybe you can uh you can

00:20:06.860 touch on a topic we haven't touched on or just give final closing comments well jamie i'll i'll just

00:20:11.900 share a fun anecdote that we were talking about beforehand so before getting elected i was a political

00:20:16.140 staffer and um it's it's so great to be able to work on these files with michael chong because he

00:20:21.660 when i was a staffer i was working on the committee that he was chairing which was the industry committee

00:20:26.860 uh and not only that but mark garneau was the liberal critic on the industry committee at the

00:20:33.100 time and anthony rota who's now the speaker was there as well so um michael's someone that i've i've

00:20:38.940 worked with and looked up to for a long time coming out of a staffer career and it's great to be able to

00:20:43.500 work together with him on the on the foreign affairs file and i know uh i know we gave mark garneau uh

00:20:49.500 a lot of uh a lot of things to stick handle in those days and uh you know i uh but but this is a

00:20:56.140 this is a principal issue the weaker issue and other things and i i would really challenge him to to

00:21:01.260 step up and do the right thing here uh not to think about this in terms of just uh issues management

00:21:06.700 day by day situation but to think about the big consequences uh for the next generation for the future

00:21:13.020 of our country about whether or not we are serious about standing up to this threat of uh

00:21:17.740 authoritarian communism advanced by china guarded genus thank you very much for coming on the show

00:21:22.460 once again a good friend of the program we will have you back the member of parliament for surewood

00:21:27.500 park fort saskatchewan in the beautiful province of alberta he's also the shadow minister for

00:21:31.820 international development and human rights if you'd liked what you watched or heard please take

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00:22:01.340 every single tuesday i was gonna say thursday but tuesday 1 30 pm eastern time we appreciate your support

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The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - March 05, 2021

China’s Genocide of Uyghurs

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