The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - Hope matters.

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome once again to The Blueprints. This is Canada's Conservative Podcast. I'm your

00:00:14.720 host, Jamie Schmel, Member of Parliament for Halliburton Corps of the Lakes, with new content

00:00:18.220 for you every single Tuesday, 1.30pm Eastern Time. Don't forget to like, comment, subscribe,

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00:00:30.520 On today's show, we are talking about medical assistance in dying,

00:00:34.160 a very touchy topic, but changes the Liberal government have to this program

00:00:38.640 and how Conservatives, the opposition, are going to deal with that.

00:00:42.700 To talk about this and so much more, we bring on Tamara Janssen,

00:00:46.000 the Member of Parliament for Cloverdale, Langley City in the beautiful province of British Columbia.

00:00:50.900 Thanks for coming on the show.

00:00:51.980 Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be able to talk about this subject.

00:00:55.080 it's so important. It is, and another first timer on the show. So my bad for not having you on

00:01:00.920 sooner. No, I appreciate it. So I think most Canadians are in some capacity knowledgeable

00:01:08.040 about medical assistance and dying, right? They may not know the details, but they know the program

00:01:13.260 exists in some capacity and that they may know someone in their circle that has accessed it or

00:01:18.760 whatever, or had that discussion, right? I think it's pretty well known. But the government,

00:01:23.080 And maybe you could just, before I get to what you're proposing in your private member's bill and what the government is potentially doing in a couple of years, why don't you tell us how we got here? This started in 2016.

00:01:34.520 Sure, sure. The first bill came out, C-14, and it was about irremediability.

00:01:39.260 So people who were at the end of their life, and I think many Canadians thought that this was a reasonable thing to be able to have patients access.

00:01:48.580 So that was specifically for those who were at the end of their life, that we call it now track one and, you know, shorter time frame for them to be able to access MAID.

00:01:59.740 So then in 2021, we actually added something, which we call Track 2, which is for those who are not reasonably close to death, but they are struggling with extreme challenges.

00:02:15.720 And this was called Track 2, and it was Bill C-7.

00:02:20.440 And it included people that were solely suffering from a mental health challenge, which is, it has been so concerning to all Canadians and especially the psychiatric profession that now it's actually been postponed three times.

00:02:35.740 It did actually pass. And now, unfortunately, we're coming to 2027 when this law will actually come into effect.

00:02:44.220 It's in there. It's ready to go.

00:02:46.920 And we're very concerned that this is going to lead to people being afforded MAID when really there is a lot of hope for them.

00:02:56.420 So track one is, as you said, foreseeable death.

00:02:59.340 So someone with cancer in the late stages, chances are they're going to die.

00:03:04.140 But track two also included the mental health component, but it also had, I believe, for people with multiple sclerosis or ALS, that type of thing, who will gradually see a decline in their health.

00:03:18.020 Correct.

00:03:18.280 And they have this 90-day safeguard period that they kind of give them an opportunity to think it through as opposed to when you're close to death.

00:03:27.060 But the thing that we're very concerned about is many vulnerable people are falling into this track two.

00:03:32.860 And so that's why this Bill C-218 that I put forward is so important.

00:03:37.680 The idea is to actually stop those who are suffering solely from a mental illness, solely a mental illness, from being allowed to access MAID.

00:03:47.260 And as we all know, death is permanent.

00:03:50.520 And in a lot of cases, mental health is temporary.

00:03:53.920 So I think what you're trying to advocate for is not giving a permanent solution to a most likely temporary situation.

00:04:04.080 Correct. So basically the psychiatric profession has to be able to confidently say that someone would never get better in order for them to qualify for this.

00:04:13.280 If you are clearly, if it's not subjective, you can clearly say this person will never recover, then they could be eligible.

00:04:24.820 The challenge is that to say that someone is irremediable in this situation, in solely mental health situations, is impossible.

00:04:33.340 It's completely subjective.

00:04:34.820 And the professionals are coming to committee and testifying that it's a subjective decision.

00:04:40.120 We have a graphic here of a young man who was losing his eyesight, was first awarded medical assistance in dying in Ontario.

00:04:52.980 Then, I'll let you tell the story too, but ended up, long story here, going to British Columbia and having that procedure done.

00:05:01.160 Right. So this is a story about a young man named Keanu.

00:05:04.680 And Keanu really struggled with depression.

00:05:06.980 He was approved for MAID because he had other physical illnesses that could qualify him under Track 2.

00:05:15.460 He was when he was 21 years old here in Ontario, but his mom fought hard for him.

00:05:21.240 She knew that oftentimes it was a seasonal thing.

00:05:25.020 They were able, with good care, with good supports, they were able to bring him back out of it.

00:05:29.460 So she advocated for him hard, and they actually revoked his permission for MAID.

00:05:35.460 But he was he was bound and determined. And here's here's the thing this there the doctor shopping is happening.

00:05:42.160 So he was looking and he was asking over and over again. He finally was given the information by I think it was Ontario Health.

00:05:49.460 Look, you're not going to get approved here in Ontario, but here's links that you might be able to get approval elsewhere.

00:05:55.460 And this helped him to find Dr. Weeb in British Columbia and she she approved him.

00:06:01.460 He flew out to BC, and before the family could do anything, he was...

00:06:06.220 And he wasn't a resident of BC. He just flew out.

00:06:08.740 Correct. He just flew out to BC.

00:06:10.920 I know that testimony at committee was suggesting that, oh, you'd have to be a resident,

00:06:15.280 and it would all be, you know, all done very safely, but this was absolutely not.

00:06:20.140 Here's a man who was, he was bound and determined to die by maid,

00:06:25.460 struggling severely with mental health issues.

00:06:30.240 So much so that even his eyesight, you know, he had been told, we can improve your eyesight if you come in for these different treatments.

00:06:37.520 So he was going in, coming out with the glasses on like he had done the treatment.

00:06:42.040 So his mom thought that, you know, his eyesight is getting better, but it wasn't because he wasn't actually doing the treatment.

00:06:47.540 So this is a young man severely struggling with his mental health.

00:06:51.580 And he was approved even after he had been told no in Ontario.

00:06:57.780 So fly out to BC, and then he got it.

00:07:00.860 So we've also heard a lot of testimony at a committee about the concept of doctor shopping,

00:07:05.980 looking for someone who will look at your case and say, okay, yes, yes, I can approve you.

00:07:11.360 All right, we have another graphic here, and we're going to get some audio very shortly.

00:07:15.320 Just basically, this doctor reinforces what you've been saying this whole time.

00:07:19.960 Like, if you open it up to mental illness, who knows where this is going to lead?

00:07:24.920 Well, this particular doctor came to committee and he said that he's actually tried to report some of the cases that he has seen made done,

00:07:32.260 which in ways that he felt were inappropriate because he he says, I often have success.

00:07:37.080 He works with the most sick, the absolute, the most low in for cases of depression.

00:07:43.940 And he often will find different ways of giving them some help, some hope, you know, some improvement.

00:07:51.940 And so when he sees some of these cases that were his own patients going through it

00:07:56.140 and getting made by going around the backs of different people, he's tried to report it.

00:08:02.920 So he's reported it to the professional boards, he's reported it to the health authority,

00:08:07.980 and he's not able to get past them.

00:08:10.180 This nobody, absolutely no one has been charged as of now.

00:08:14.260 And so oftentimes those who are pro-made say, look, nobody's been charged.

00:08:17.820 But the challenge is, is these, many of these decisions are kept very private.

00:08:23.060 You can't, I know there's a young woman in BC, her mom was euthanized.

00:08:27.840 And she cannot get her mom's records to say what it is that approved her mom for MAID.

00:08:33.340 Let's queue up cut one here.

00:08:34.800 We have a colleague and our friend Andrew Lawton from the London, Ontario area at committee,

00:08:41.060 just asking some questions about what could be opened up if the government does not delay this

00:08:49.140 you know in 2027 when it's scheduled to come back in to include those with mental illness play cut

00:08:55.420 one. But just for clarity do you believe that there are certain diagnoses that could never

00:09:01.960 rise to that level of being grievous and irremediable and justify medical assistance

00:09:06.820 and dying as far as diagnostic mental illnesses are concerned?

00:09:10.300 Well, there are, excuse me, Mr. Chair, there are certainly diagnoses that by definition

00:09:16.580 are intended to be time limited or reactive to certain kinds of circumstances. And I think we

00:09:22.660 can safely assume that those would not meet the legislated criteria as they are currently written.

00:09:28.140 Do you believe in eating disorder could qualify someone for MAID?

00:09:31.680 Again, I think the legislation is clear that it really depends on the circumstances of the person.

00:09:36.820 So it could?

00:09:38.740 Potentially.

00:09:39.520 And depression as well?

00:09:40.900 Major depressive disorder?

00:09:42.080 Again, it depends on the clinical circumstances of the person.

00:09:44.920 Is there a consensus among...

00:09:46.640 So we didn't get a firm no here.

00:09:48.900 We got a, it could depend.

00:09:51.100 And that really is a slippery slope.

00:09:54.340 If we're doing now those suffering from depression,

00:09:57.720 we're going in this instant all the way to those with an eating disorder.

00:10:01.440 Like this could really slide from here.

00:10:05.180 Absolutely.

00:10:05.940 So, again, what the psychiatrists, the professionals are saying, it's a very subjective decision.

00:10:12.040 There's no test.

00:10:12.980 You can't take a test like you can, say, for instance, with cancer to say, okay, you have cancer, your death is reasonably foreseeable.

00:10:19.520 With many of the things that are being treated in psychiatry right now, there's no way that we can say for sure that you will never get better.

00:10:28.480 You'll never recover.

00:10:30.240 So someone like that, we are looking at a possibility of someone with PTSD, someone with anorexia, these people qualifying.

00:10:38.220 There's, I think there's, I don't know, 170 or more different things that will qualify when this law comes into play.

00:10:44.120 So it's very concerning, especially when you consider that there's not a lot of mental health services available.

00:10:51.160 Many people try to get care, especially those who are extreme.

00:10:54.620 To get that specialist care, it's almost impossible.

00:10:57.800 I think the numbers are like only one in three, you know, get treatment fast enough.

00:11:03.500 And these are suicidal people.

00:11:05.120 And the other thing, you know, that they're working, they know it's very complex to be able to tell, well, you know, who's suicidal and when is this like a reasonable request for MAID?

00:11:15.940 And it seems very ironic that you would suggest that, you know, there are those two different ways of asking for MAID in a situation where mental health is the sole underlying condition.

00:11:27.380 Well, we've even seen cases with Veterans Affairs, where veterans wanted to get better and needed help from Veterans Affairs.

00:11:33.560 In one case, it was a lift, a wheelchair lift.

00:11:36.660 And the agent at the other end of the line at Veterans Affairs just asked the veteran, have you considered MAID?

00:11:44.000 Right? Like, instead of helping, those that still want to continue on with life and make their life a little easier, we're told, time to consider MAID.

00:11:51.180 But with all of that, to the eating disorder, you actually have a video, Let's Cut 2, where you have pointed out that women could be disproportionately impacted if the government moves forward with this.

00:12:04.920 Play cut 2.

00:12:05.760 If a drug company made a pill that mistakenly ended the lives of more women than men, I cannot imagine we'd say it is then okay that more women are dying. 0.99

00:12:14.620 We would be facilitating their death. 0.61

00:12:16.640 We heard currently more women are accessing Track 2 MAID, and the explanation we're given, 1.00

00:12:21.420 well, that makes sense, women have more chronic conditions. 0.96

00:12:23.940 If we see more women in that situation choosing MAID, should we be treating that as something Canadians should just expect?

00:12:29.460 I would be terrified if we actually fall to that normalization of thinking more women than men should get MAID for psychiatric conditions. 0.87

00:12:37.060 There's evidence that has not been brought forward here about twice as many women as men in the Netherlands getting MAID for psychiatric conditions.

00:12:45.320 We know that twice as many women as men attempt suicide when depressed.

00:12:49.480 The obvious concern is are we converting a transient suicidality to a permanent death by mate?

00:12:55.160 So we should be having more treatment rather than right to mate for those suffering from mental illness. 0.84

00:13:00.700 I think this year, Bill, speaks to that.

00:13:02.780 It creates more of a value on the individual itself rather than ending that life.

00:13:10.640 Right. So many women are struggling with, you know, hopelessness, feeling like they're a burden or they can't get out of a situation. 1.00

00:13:19.220 When a woman attempts suicide, most often she fails because they're not, it's a different, it's a cry for help.

00:13:24.920 And so we need to make sure that those people are getting help.

00:13:27.920 I think the challenge that we have right now is, with the way the law is written, there isn't even a need to have done any sort of, accessed any sort of resources whatsoever.

00:13:41.640 You don't need to have had any treatment.

00:13:43.780 You can request it and be given, made, even without having had these resources that we know, we know help, and they do make a difference.

00:13:51.460 So that's very shocking to me that the law wouldn't even consider that that was at least at minimum.

00:13:56.980 Do you get any indication from the Liberals or the Bloc

00:14:01.620 whether or not they'll support your private members, Bill?

00:14:03.820 Have you, anything come out yet?

00:14:06.200 Well, I would suggest people try and watch some of the committee testimony

00:14:09.660 because I'm getting the feeling that the Liberals are divided.

00:14:13.300 And especially when you hear the testimony from psychiatrists

00:14:16.140 that this is something that cannot be done safely.

00:14:20.540 There's nothing but subjectivity in the decisions being made that are life and death.

00:14:25.140 One of the doctors actually said, it's like flipping a coin, we'll be right maybe 50% of the time that this person is irremediable.

00:14:32.600 That means 50% of the people that access it will have died unnecessarily due to lack of good supports.

00:14:39.360 So I'm seeing that there are Liberals that are very concerned with this going forward.

00:14:45.440 I'm just, I'm worried that there will be a whipped vote.

00:14:48.440 Right.

00:14:48.940 Yeah.

00:14:49.340 Right.

00:14:49.980 And, yeah, that just expands it to that slippery slope.

00:14:54.620 So for families that are dealing with those who are struggling, right?

00:14:59.920 I'm sure we know viewers or listeners can probably pick a few.

00:15:05.600 Unfortunately, mental health, like no matter where you go nowadays,

00:15:08.600 especially coming after the pandemic, is so wide.

00:15:11.860 It is incredible what the pandemic did to people and their mental health.

00:15:17.500 What's the message you have for them with people?

00:15:20.820 Well, what I'm getting out of all of the testimony that we're getting from professionals is there is hope.

00:15:26.860 You just need to reach out and ask for help.

00:15:30.060 Like, actually get in line, get ready to have a moment with someone who will listen, who will care.

00:15:36.440 We've heard so many times from these psychiatrists that oftentimes all these people are looking for is an ear.

00:15:41.960 Someone to hear their challenges and to help them work through it.

00:15:46.120 And the ones that we've spoken to have been so positive about the hope that's out there.

00:15:52.000 I think the challenge that we're facing as well is that a lot of media is kind of romanticizing made right now.

00:15:59.420 And it's very scary.

00:16:01.520 One of our witnesses mentioned, you know, when you romanticize something like this, you can create this contagion.

00:16:08.680 And people want to get on board because, oh, it's so romantic.

00:16:12.780 Well, we know what happens when the media, say, for example, does something like go out and read the manifesto of a shooter.

00:16:22.300 We know that it creates a contagion.

00:16:24.100 And so we have laws around that.

00:16:25.260 We want to be very careful that we don't create that.

00:16:27.380 And when we see things like the advertisement that Simon's put out, which was, you know, a woman, you know, at the seashore and life is wonderful and this is how I'm going to die most peacefully, we're creating a contagion.

00:16:38.440 And the media is part of that, social media. 0.99

00:16:41.600 So we as Canadians, I think we need to really look at ourselves and say,

00:16:45.620 is that who we are or do we want to offer hope?

00:16:48.040 And that's what I believe this bill does.

00:16:49.700 It offers hope to those who are struggling.

00:16:51.300 And you also, with this legislation, complement the work of another British Columbian, Todd Doherty,

00:16:56.980 from Northern British Columbia, who put forward a motion and then had it implemented,

00:17:01.820 the National Suicide Prevention Hotline, and created that right across the country

00:17:07.280 So those who are struggling, as you said, get that ear in a timely fashion.

00:17:12.060 Absolutely.

00:17:12.640 Yeah, congratulations to Todd.

00:17:14.060 The opposition doing its work.

00:17:16.120 The government took them a while, but they finally got around to putting that together.

00:17:20.600 Tamara, we're pretty much out of time, but the guests always get the last word.

00:17:24.240 The floor is yours.

00:17:25.460 Well, I think it's most important that Canadians are recognizing that this is the law.

00:17:30.540 It's just been postponed.

00:17:31.680 It's coming into effect March 2027.

00:17:34.800 And we need you to reach out to your local member of Parliament to let them know that you are against the idea of someone struggling solely with a mental illness, being allowed to access MAID, and that you want them to support Bill C-218.

00:17:49.900 All right, Tamara Jensen, member of Parliament for Cloverdale, Langley City.

00:17:54.420 Thank you so much for coming on the show.

00:17:56.380 We do appreciate your time.

00:17:58.060 We appreciate yours as well.

00:17:59.580 Don't forget to like, comment, subscribe and share this program because I believe this is a topic you are not hearing in the mainstream media.

00:18:06.440 This gives the other side. Tell your friends, too.

00:18:08.780 They can download it on platforms like CastBox, iTunes, Google Play and Spotify.

00:18:12.700 You name it, it is out there.

00:18:14.200 New content for you every single Tuesday, 1.30 p.m. Eastern Time.

00:18:17.840 Until next week, remember, low taxes, less governments, more freedom.

00:18:21.640 That's the blueprint.

00:18:29.580 Transcription by CastingWords

The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - April 29, 2026

Hope matters.

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