The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - Independent media in the crosshairs

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome once again to the Blueprint Canada's Conservative Podcast. I'm your host,

00:00:09.380 Jamie Schmael, Member of Parliament for Halliburton, North of Lakes, Brock, broadcasting

00:00:12.980 live from my constituency office in Lindsay, Ontario, because as I told you back in June,

00:00:17.780 we will have new content for you every single Tuesday. We ask that you like, comment, share,

00:00:22.820 subscribe to this program. And of course, if you can't listen or watch it in its entirety,

00:00:27.160 right this very second, tell your friends about it as well. They can download it on platforms like

00:00:31.120 CastBox, iTunes, Google Play, and Spotify. You name it, it is out there. There is so much to talk

00:00:36.480 about again. And we're going to bring back someone who's been on the show a few times, actually,

00:00:40.680 in the past few months. Not exactly for great reasons, because the topic we're going to be

00:00:45.520 discussing, not exactly something that we're very happy about in terms of the direction Canada is

00:00:50.880 going. So welcome back, Rachel Thomas, Member of Parliament for Lethbridge, also the Heritage

00:00:55.880 Critic. Thank you very much for joining us. Thanks, Jamie. So good to be with you. Really

00:01:00.280 appreciate the opportunity. And I understand you're at the Calgary Stampede just before we get

00:01:04.740 into C18 and tell the listeners and viewers what is going on with that. How was the Stampede this year?

00:01:10.820 Yeah, well, the Calgary Stampede, of course, brings hundreds of thousands of people to the city of

00:01:14.920 Calgary to enjoy the greatest outdoor show on earth. And it is indeed the Wild West out here. So we're

00:01:21.360 enjoying good times, connecting with folks from all across the country, being able to interact at

00:01:26.460 various events and meetings. And then, of course, there's the rodeo and the chuck wagons. And we're

00:01:31.320 having a good time over here. Well, the pictures and videos certainly looked amazing. So congratulations

00:01:36.240 to you and your team for putting them up and all the Conservative MPs around Alberta and elsewhere that

00:01:41.780 came to enjoy that show. Thanks so much. It's been a ton of fun. It's been a ton of fun.

00:01:47.800 Well, unfortunately, I have to really talk about this topic because we've had you on before to

00:01:54.320 talk about C11, which was the social media censorship bill. Now we're having you back to

00:01:59.220 talk about C18, which is the second piece of legislation concerning the internet, concerning

00:02:06.220 this time news agencies that the Liberals have completely made a mess of. And I'll get you to tell

00:02:12.320 us a bit about what C18 is, but just amazing what the Heritage Minister has been coming out

00:02:17.100 lately in the past week, especially saying, I can't believe this is happening. Why is this all

00:02:21.960 falling apart? Maybe, why don't you tell us about, you know, you came on this program many weeks ago

00:02:27.280 and said, this is going to happen if we go ahead. And sure enough, it happened. Why don't you tell

00:02:30.660 people what C18 is, and then we'll get into the more meaty stuff. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely,

00:02:36.540 Jamie. So I think what we're seeing is definitely the disintegration of this bill. We knew it was going

00:02:41.700 to be an absolute disaster. And sure enough, here we are. It is. You know, so basically,

00:02:46.760 if I was to take our audience back to the beginning, Bill C18 is essentially a bill that

00:02:50.840 was brought forward by the Liberal government. Minister Rodriguez, who is the Minister of Heritage,

00:02:55.640 is the one who is shepherding this bill. He brought this bill forward, I guess, as a solution to,

00:03:01.840 you know, the outcry from media needing more money. And of course, most of those voices were the big

00:03:09.500 broadcasters, Bell, CBC, and Rogers in particular, of course, basically crying out, asking the

00:03:16.100 government to assist them. And so the government came up with Bill C18. Bill C18, they said, was

00:03:21.140 supposed to help newspapers. That's how they decided to put this out there. It was going to help local

00:03:26.560 newspapers. It was going to help communities like mine, Lethbridge, or smaller communities across

00:03:31.680 this country. Again, that's how the Liberals positioned it. When the Parliamentary Budget Officer came

00:03:37.220 out, though, with his report, he made it really clear that actually, this bill is really about

00:03:42.180 those big broadcasters. 75% of the funding will go to Bell, CBC, and Rogers. Only 25% of funding will

00:03:49.680 be left for both the large newspapers, such as Post Media, and the smaller conglomerates, along with

00:03:55.800 ethnic media. So 25%, then, is actually about newspapers. 75% is about big broadcasters. Essentially,

00:04:02.560 what this bill does is it puts the CRTC, which is the commissioner, the regulatory arm, in charge of

00:04:09.720 determining which news outlets in Canada are actual news outlets and which are not, which get the state

00:04:15.620 stamp of approval, which don't. If you get the stamp of approval, it means that you can enter into

00:04:20.880 negotiations with platforms such as Facebook and Google. Once you enter into those negotiations,

00:04:26.320 essentially, what you're negotiating is being paid for news links. So, of course, what this does is it

00:04:33.840 causes a whole lot of problems in terms of the independence of journalists. It causes problems in

00:04:38.880 terms of choice with regard to media options and where we get our news as Canadians. It just puts the

00:04:45.040 government in the driver's seat and really results in censorship in terms of media that we have access

00:04:52.080 to as Canadians and the sources where we would obtain our news. Okay. So, here's another scary part.

00:04:58.800 Now, not only do we have C11, the manipulated algorithms, usually getting stuff you don't want

00:05:03.520 to see, and it's up to the government what that criteria is. But now, as you mentioned, C18 relies

00:05:11.600 heavily on the CRTC, so the Canadian Radio Television Telecommunications Commission, which determines,

00:05:17.600 as you mentioned, which qualified journalism organizations get that money. So, who is the

00:05:24.160 CRTC? Well, they are appointees of the government. So, you have a bunch of liberal appointees deciding

00:05:31.120 which agency, news agency, gets this funding that's out there. How does this support journalism in

00:05:39.520 any way? So, if you're saying something nasty against the government, they can take away your funding

00:05:44.480 because they don't agree. You're not approved journalists. Absolutely. Absolutely, Jamie,

00:05:50.000 and you're raising a really good point. And let's not mince our words. This bill makes it really clear

00:05:54.320 that actually Cabinet is in charge. So, this bill gives Cabinet the responsibility of determining

00:06:01.920 the terms of this legislation, and then it's the CRTC that actually has to enact those terms. But it is,

00:06:08.480 in fact, Cabinet that is able to make those decisions. And so, it can actually be the government itself,

00:06:13.920 then, determining, you know, which news outlets are going to be approved and which news outlets are

00:06:21.760 not. So, as soon as we go in that direction, we are entering into state-censored media. We are entering

00:06:28.320 into, you know, government-sponsored news, which again is really detrimental to the Canadian public. It's

00:06:35.040 detrimental to our democracy because it prevents multiple voices from being heard. Instead, only the

00:06:40.640 voices that the government wants to have heard will be supported by this legislation.

00:06:46.560 I think I read this recently, kind of a meme popped up. The novel 1984 does not have to be

00:06:54.880 current events, right? Like, this is unbelievable what is happening in Canada. And these Truanon supporters 1.00

00:07:04.000 are clapping at it. My point, and I think yours is too, we don't care if it's a conservative

00:07:08.640 government or a liberal government in charge. We don't want anybody in the government manipulating

00:07:14.000 what people can see, watch, and read.

00:07:16.240 One hundred percent, Jamie. That's exactly it, right? At the end of the day, you know,

00:07:21.280 as conservatives, we believe that journalists have gone to school, they've been trained,

00:07:24.800 they want to tell stories. And, you know, and they should be trusted to do so. And they should not

00:07:31.520 have to function under the thumb of the government or any organization for that matter. And so the

00:07:36.560 problem with this bill is that it not only puts the state squarely in the newsroom, if you will,

00:07:42.560 but it also makes tech giants in charge of which news links they are going to pay for and which news

00:07:48.000 links they're not. Which then means you have the government, Google and Facebook, determining what people

00:07:54.640 can or cannot access online. Again, that is a huge problem. Instead, we should be encouraging all

00:08:01.200 journalists across this country to tell the stories that they feel need to be told. And they should be

00:08:05.840 able to do that without any undue pressure from an outside authority. You mentioned it earlier,

00:08:10.880 but I do want to get back to it because I think it's important to highlight this again. The local

00:08:16.160 journalism parts, they're the ones being hit the hardest, because as you pointed out, the funding

00:08:20.720 model doesn't exactly favor them. But at the same time, the way that Google, Meta, and others will

00:08:29.120 be basically taking local journalism out of the search engine, if you will, that's going to damage

00:08:37.840 their ability to get their message out. And I don't know about you, but local papers don't really exist

00:08:42.160 anymore. Even in small towns, it's all online. Exactly. So you have local newspapers across the

00:08:49.600 country that function in smaller communities, and they tell the local stories. They tell the stories

00:08:56.720 about the graduates who did great things. They tell the stories about the events being hosted by a local

00:09:02.080 business. They tell the stories about community organizations and the various components of a small

00:09:08.400 town. And even larger towns, even places like Calgary or like Vancouver or like Toronto, there

00:09:16.000 are local stories that are wanting to be told. And it's up to these journalists at these smaller outlets

00:09:21.840 to tell those stories. But what happens is the government has now determined that the vast majority

00:09:27.680 of this funding is going to go towards the larger outlets. And so really, it is putting these smaller

00:09:32.400 guys at a significant disadvantage. The other problem with this bill is this. Both Google and

00:09:39.760 Facebook told the government at least a year ahead of time, look, if this legislation comes into place,

00:09:45.440 we're going to respect the legislation. And the way we're going to respect the legislation is by

00:09:50.320 simply not carrying news links anymore. The government decided to play Russian roulette,

00:09:56.160 and they pulled the trigger. They knew that this was terrible legislation. They were told by witness

00:10:00.880 after witness after witness at committee, both within the House of Commons and in the Senate.

00:10:05.280 They were given an opportunity to fix this legislation. Conservatives brought forward amendment

00:10:09.360 after amendment to help with that. We were turned down at every turn. And so at the end of the day,

00:10:15.040 the government pushed it through. Well, Google and Facebook have now made good on their threat,

00:10:19.120 and they said, we're not carrying news links anymore. What that does then is it harms Canadians.

00:10:25.280 It means that we cannot access the news sources that we wish to access.

00:10:29.920 So then the government decided that they were going to try to act all macho. And they said,

00:10:35.280 well, then we're not going to advertise on Facebook anymore. Now, what they were saying is we're not

00:10:39.920 going to put government announcements on Facebook anymore. So really what they're doing is they're

00:10:44.480 saying we're no longer going to make announcements with regards to public programming or service

00:10:50.240 announcements that Canadians deserve to hear about. We are no longer going to make those available on

00:10:54.800 Facebook. That's what the Liberal Minister was really saying. It had nothing to do with partisanship.

00:10:59.920 It had everything to do with just the government's responsibility to make things available to

00:11:04.240 Canadians. So at the end of the day, that's just hurting Canadians. Facebook doesn't care. It was 0.01%

00:11:10.160 of their overall ad revenue. So Facebook doesn't care about that. It was just simply the Minister of

00:11:15.520 Heritage trying to save face and act macho, but really was doing nothing to harm Facebook and

00:11:21.280 everything to harm Canadians by preventing them from being able to access important government

00:11:25.360 information. Now, here's what's interesting about this is that when we asked the Minister,

00:11:31.440 or when he was asked, I should say, with regards to the Liberal Party of Canada and whether or not

00:11:36.240 they would stop advertising on Facebook, they said, no, they're going to continue to use Facebook.

00:11:41.680 So in other words, it's okay for the Liberal Party of Canada to continue using Facebook for their

00:11:45.920 advertising. No problem there, because of course, they don't want to harm their political advantage. 0.97

00:11:50.720 But when it comes to the government of Canada, things that every Canadian should have access to,

00:11:55.200 well, you're out of luck. They're no longer going to make those messages available on public platforms.

00:12:00.400 So that's a huge problem. And I think what it highlights for Canadians is the fact that really,

00:12:07.200 this government is about saving face. It's about trying to look like they're doing the right thing,

00:12:11.840 but at the end of the day, they're not. As stated, this money is going towards large broadcasters.

00:12:17.440 It's not going towards ethnic media. It's not going towards small newspapers. It's not saving,

00:12:22.480 you know, choice in news across this country. Not at all. And in addition to that, when the government

00:12:27.440 says that they're going to, you know, be punitive towards Facebook, that's not at all true. In fact,

00:12:31.600 they're being punitive towards Canadians. So it's an absolute blunder. And then if I may,

00:12:37.440 just to finish this off, you know, the latest news is that as of the last couple of days,

00:12:42.480 now the heritage minister, again, in order to save face and, you know, continue with his prideful

00:12:49.280 function, you know, he said, well, actually, we're entering into some backroom deals with Google.

00:12:56.000 We're going to make sure that the news stays on this platform. So really, what he's saying is,

00:13:00.560 he's saying, but he's not saying that this was really terrible legislation.

00:13:06.960 They screwed up. And so now what he's saying is he's going to turn a blind eye to significant

00:13:12.560 portions of this legislation in order to try to keep Google at the table, in order to make sure

00:13:18.480 that news links are still carried. You know, he would be better off just saying, look, Canada,

00:13:24.480 we screwed up. We got this wrong. We're going to scrap the legislation and we're going to start

00:13:28.160 all over again, which is what so many legal experts, media experts, and journalists, including

00:13:34.320 the Globe and Mail, are calling for. They're asking for this legislation to be scrapped altogether

00:13:38.640 and to be started all over again, which, which I'll add, when conservatives form government,

00:13:43.840 we will absolutely be scrapping this piece of legislation and starting from scratch because

00:13:47.520 it is an absolute disaster. You know what that also tells me, what the liberals are doing when they

00:13:52.880 go to the backroom deals. I'm just so sensitive to what these liberals are up to all the time 0.78

00:13:59.840 that it just rings in my head. I hear carve-outs for certain organizations, for certain preferred

00:14:06.480 news organizations. They will get the carve-outs. Everybody else will starve. That's what it tells me.

00:14:13.200 100%. 100%. And you're absolutely right, Jamie. And I'll just highlight for our audience again,

00:14:18.000 like to show the two-faced, you know, two-facedness of this government, you know, on the one hand,

00:14:24.080 the ministry is saying, well, this is about, you know, ethnic media and indigenous media and protecting

00:14:28.800 those small outlets. On the other hand, again, he is very much pumping up the big three broadcasters

00:14:35.520 and very much turning away those smaller guys. And, and not just the smaller outlets, but the

00:14:41.840 innovative outlets, the outlets that are established online, who were able to anticipate what was going

00:14:47.440 to come. They knew the world was shifting and they changed course and they became online and they also

00:14:54.080 became subscription-based. And those media companies have been doing very well. Now with the government

00:15:00.000 intervening, they are, what they're doing is they're actually, they're distorting the marketplace.

00:15:06.320 And what they're going to do then is they're going to rescue those three big broadcasters

00:15:10.640 in exchange for actually causing extreme detriment or harm to those innovative news outlets that really

00:15:18.480 have been anticipatory all along, incredibly creative, incredibly innovative, and who offer the voices

00:15:24.320 that Canadians really deserve to hear. And at that point, why would the big news organizations

00:15:30.160 that are getting a special carve out from government and the protection from big government, at the same

00:15:36.000 time, seeing barriers to competition introduced that keep the, the smaller players at bay and far enough

00:15:43.440 away from, from eating away at their profits or even having to compete. So at that point, why would

00:15:49.040 you bite the hand that feeds you? Why would you have objective journalism at that point? You would just

00:15:54.880 give out government talking points because we don't want any barriers reduced to allow the free market to

00:16:00.480 take hold and smaller organizations to eat into the big three or the comfort news organizations. This is a

00:16:07.840 terrible, terrible situation Canada has itself in. Yeah, again, you're absolutely right. And I think this is

00:16:15.280 a big problem, right? So you already have the CDC, which was these $1.2 billion per year by the federal

00:16:20.720 government, which of course is taxpayer money. You have, you know, Bell Rogers and other large outlets

00:16:26.320 that are receiving, you know, $600 million in, in Canadian, you know, government bailout money or the media

00:16:33.440 fund. And then now on top of that, you have built the 18, which is supposed to create a fund of about,

00:16:39.200 you know, anywhere from, you know, $175 to $350 million. Again, if you're, if, if you're an outlet

00:16:48.160 that is dependent on government funding, are you really going to be objective? Are you really going

00:16:54.560 to be independent? Are you really going to be able to establish yourself according to journalistic

00:17:00.320 standards that have been set by many of these outlets? I would argue, and many Canadians would

00:17:05.440 argue that, that, that, that just won't be possible. And so what happens then is it sends the perception

00:17:11.600 to the Canadian public that news outlets are just simply, you know, the, the, the puppets, I guess,

00:17:17.760 of the government and, and really then trust starts to disintegrate. And when trust starts to

00:17:22.960 disintegrate, then people are no longer accessing the stories that need to be accessed or, or believing the

00:17:29.760 things that are told to them. And it really, it really harms democracy and it sends us into chaos

00:17:34.240 as a country. So the solution is ultimately to, to allow news outlets to, to function independent of

00:17:41.600 government and supported by the Canadian public. And I, I read a really interesting offering just

00:17:48.080 within the last 24 hours. And that was from, you know, the McDonnell-Laurie Institute. And one of the

00:17:52.960 things that they had suggested was why not actually turn it over to the Canadian people? In other words,

00:17:59.360 what they were offering was allow for Canadians to subscribe to the news outlets of their choice

00:18:06.240 and then allow them to submit those receipts as along with their taxes at the end of the year

00:18:11.440 and to receive a 100% rebate. So essentially then the money is still getting to the news outlets,

00:18:18.960 but it's the Canadian people who are determining the type of news that they want to watch or read. And so

00:18:25.040 they're determining the outlets that should be supported, which takes the government out of

00:18:29.040 the equation. And I think restores independence back to journalism.

00:18:31.920 Not how a liberal thinks. No, no, you can't leave these types of decisions up to ordinary people. They

00:18:38.000 might hurt themselves if they have to make decisions for themselves. Big government needs to make these

00:18:43.040 decisions and tell people what they're going to watch, show them what they're going to listen to. And that's

00:18:47.840 it. They will decide who the arbiter of truth is. And otherwise, the people just keep pushing it

00:18:53.680 uphill. Don't worry about it. Don't make a decision. You'll just get yourselves in trouble. That's what

00:18:58.480 this is coming to. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. This really is about the state maintaining control

00:19:05.360 and being able to make sure that the message that is out there for the Canadian public to consume

00:19:10.320 is in fact approved by the Liberal Party of Canada. All right, Rachel Thomas, we've gone a bit over

00:19:15.760 time, but I love talking to you. There's so many more questions I could ask. I don't know. Everything

00:19:20.560 just seems broken with this government. They can't seem to get anything right. It's mind-boggling how

00:19:25.920 they can fail so much and spend so much, but get so little accomplished. 100%. 100%. But you know

00:19:33.360 what, Jamie? I think we have a huge opportunity to fight on behalf of Canadians, and we're going to

00:19:36.480 continue to do that. All right. The guests always get the final word. I don't know if you want that to

00:19:40.720 be it, but the floor is yours. That's it. Oh, that is it. All right. Rachel Thomas, the one and only.

00:19:45.360 Thank you so much for carving. I begged and pleaded to get her on, and she answered my pleas.

00:19:50.320 She came on to talk about this very important topic. So thank you, Rachel. I appreciate your time,

00:19:54.800 and I'll let you get back with your day. Thank you so, so much. Rachel Thomas,

00:19:59.040 Member of Parliament for Lethbridge, Alberta, also the heritage critic for the Conservative Party of

00:20:02.880 Canada. Also, thank you for your time. We appreciate that you like, comment, subscribe, and share

00:20:07.920 this program. We have so many barriers in our midst right now with this government clamping down. We ask that

00:20:13.440 you do your part as well. Get this message out. Eyes and ears need to see and listen to this program.

00:20:18.080 Of course, you can download it, listen to it on platforms like CastBox, iTunes, Google Play,

00:20:22.000 and Spotify. Next week, new content for you every single Tuesday, 1.30 PM Eastern time. Until then,

00:20:27.840 remember, low taxes, less government, more freedom. That's The Blueprint.

The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - July 12, 2023

Independent media in the crosshairs

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