Interference in Canada’s elections
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Summary
In this episode, Conservative MP Tom Kamich joins me to talk about the growing allegations of foreign interference in Canada s election system, and the government's response to them. We also talk about why we need a public inquiry, and why the Prime Minister should appoint a special rapporteur to investigate.
Transcript
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Hello and welcome once again to The Blueprints. This is Canada's Conservative Podcast. I'm your
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host, Jamie Schmael, Member of Parliament for Halliburton. Co-war the likes Brock with new
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you can download it, listen to it on platforms like CastBox, iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, you name
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it. It is out there. Together we can push back against the ever-moving liberal agenda. And of
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course, today's topic, another good one for you, it is talking about foreign interference in our
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elections. It's been hitting the headlines lately. It's coming up more and more. Lots of new developments
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on this. To talk about that, we have Tom Kamich, the Member of Parliament for Calgary Shepard, also
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the critic for citizenship and immigration. Thanks very much for coming on. Thanks for having me, Jamie.
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All right. I think what we have to do first before we really get into the latest developments is
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give a little context to this conversation we're about to have. How did this start? Where did the
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beginning points to where we are now? And we'll get to where we are now. But yeah, like I said,
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let's start at the beginning. So let's do two things. First of all, Jamie, we're going to separate
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the government's response to allegations of interference in our elections and the actual
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interference that happened in the 2019-2020 election. So 2019-2021, a foreign government,
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the one in Beijing representing the Communist Party there, interfered in our elections to varying
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degrees in individual writings. It didn't change the outcome of the election, but in individual writings,
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they were manipulating people, bullying, intimidating Canadians, and also foreign nationals to actively
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participate in our election. They were doing things like illegal cash donations in a 2021 donation,
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and then having people pay them back when they got their rebate from Elections Canada. They were
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bullying international students and Canadian nationals into supporting specific candidates over
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other ones. And they're basically directing it. In fact, we now know from CSIS, because it appeared on the
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front page of the Globe and Mail, Canada's national newspaper, that they were actually taking credit.
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The Consul General of Beijing in Vancouver was taking credit for the defeat of two candidates,
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two members of Parliament. They happened to be Conservative members of Parliament. Kenny Chu from
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Richmond-Steven City. And Alice Wong. That's right. And so in both those cases, you had a diplomat
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directing and then taking credit for the defeat of two sitting members of Parliament in the 2021 election.
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It's also happened in Toronto. And a lot of those allegations have now been proven basically to
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be true. That Consul General is no longer in Canada. She actually moved on to a different
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diplomatic posting. And I've heard from many people on the ground in Vancouver, especially in Vancouver,
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how much interference was actually going on. And then there's a government response since then.
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So the government, the Trudeau government has always had this style, let's sort of speak. At first,
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they completely deny anything's going on. That's what the Prime Minister said. He's never been briefed,
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never heard about this story. And then it appears on the front page of Globe and Mail. And then they
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start to double back. They start to say, well, of course, they've heard about this. And that's why
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they set up this alphabet soup of organizations to respond and to look at. Of course, when he appoints
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someone, the news back is always nothing to see here. Everything is good. Then the front page of the
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Globe and Mail says they're wrong. The editorial board says they're wrong. They need to take this much
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more seriously. And they keep doubling back to the point to say, well, of course, there was foreign
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interference now. And of course, we take it seriously. And now we've gotten into the ridiculous
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point where the government is defying parliament. All parties on Parliament Hill, except for the
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Liberal Party, agree that we need an inquiry, a public inquiry, so we can air out exactly what
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happened in full public view. And instead, the government's moving to appoint a special
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rapporteur and to assign it to ENSECOP, which is a committee of parliamentarians named by the
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Prime Minister to meet in secret, with secret evidence, with secret conclusions. So it's
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completely ridiculous, but they kind of slow walk into it. And they report to the Prime Minister.
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To the Prime Minister, that's right. So they don't report to parliament. It's not open.
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There's no part of it that's open yet. That's right. And not even to the public.
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Yes. It is just a big smoke and mirrors. But I will just back up just a hair before we get
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into the latest announcement by the Prime Minister. Let's talk about what Kenny Chew, our Conservative
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candidate, who was a member of parliament from 2019 to 2021, Richmond Stevenson East, I believe,
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was his writing. He was talking about foreign interference in our elections almost immediately
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after that 2021 election. And he was basically dismissed by the Liberals for sure. And in some
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part, not all, I will give credit to some media outlets really digging on this and staying with
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it, saying that there was some meddling, according to Kenny, that cost him the seat. And you could
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say that, as you said, the Consul General in Vancouver taking credit for Alice Wong in Richmond
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Centre. And there was parts in Ontario, Markham Unionville for one, that we had won handily
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in a red tide in 2015 with over 50% of the vote. And all of a sudden now in 2021, when Liberals
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are on the way down, Conservatives are on the way up, and somehow we lose that seat.
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That's right. So these types of instances are concerning. So we've always been expressing
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concerns since 2019 that there's something going on here. But there's a difference between
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having suspicions and then actually having hard evidence. So like front page of the Globe
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and Mail is showing that they have now in their possession documents from CSIS. So top secret,
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secret level documents that actually show a connection between a diplomatic office and activity on the
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ground by a foreign power, actively trying to defeat candidates and members of sitting members
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of parliament who perhaps don't like their government, they're advocating on issues, on economic
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issues, on human rights issues, and are advocating for different things they don't like. In the case
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of Kenny Chu, for example, and I've spoken to Kenny many times, I spent a lot of time with him in
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Vancouver when I traveled there. He believes very strongly it's related to his advocacy for foreign
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agent registry, which is basically, it's legislation that's been in America since the 1930s,
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Australia now has a foreign agent registry. All it basically says if you take money from a foreign
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government, you need to disclose it. In fact, Canadian organizations in Australia have to register
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with their foreign agent registry system. And it's fine, you just get to go online, you get to see
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basically where is your funding coming from. It's a very fair and open, transparent way to do business
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and to demonstrate to people what your ties are. So like alumni associations, for example, have to
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disclose. And that's okay. It's not a problem. But in the case of the one that Kenny Chu was
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proposing to do an active legislative framework for it, there was obviously one specific government,
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the one out of Beijing, the communists there, who had a problem with it. And they started to
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manipulate and to intimidate and to bully people. And now we know, but in fact, it is true because
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CSIS knew about it. It was trying to tell the government, it obviously told the government,
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and the government did next to nothing. And then they went, a whistleblower, a patriotic Canadian
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decided that this wasn't good enough anymore. And they went and gave it to the Globe and Mail so that the rest of us
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could know. And Parliament has been working on this. We've been working on this since March 2022,
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when an initial motion was passed, led by the Conservatives at that committee, which is the
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committee that we call by an acronym called PROC. That's the one tasked with, you know, look at
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Elections Canada, legislation, foreign interference, and things of that matter. And then in September,
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when I was on the committee, we forced it through one more time over the objections of the Liberals
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to make sure we actually did the investigation we were supposed to do for interference.
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So a lot of that work is because the public service, the bureaucrats, people in the general
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public can see that Parliament is working on it. And they want to come forward. They want to blow the
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whistle on things they see going on in government. And when we had the Trudeau government basically
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saying, there's nothing to see here. There's nothing going on. Everything is a-okay. To then start,
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you know, walking back that initial language, then we know where there is smoke, there is fire. And
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this is not, this is like a giant forest fire right now. Oh, this is a massive security breach. So
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let's go over after the Globe and Mail story was made public. Let's go over the Liberal talking
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points. And we'll give credit to the National Post for coming up with this. There was first the Trump
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card. Of course, people talking about this must be election deniers. That's right. We never actually
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denied the election results. What we're talking about is the interference. Did the Liberals know
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about it? If yes, what turns out to be, yes, they were briefed on it many times. Why didn't they do
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anything? Well, because it benefited the Liberals. Next up was the nothing to see card. We're all making
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it up, right? They got this out of control. They took steps in the past. They got, they're on it.
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They're on it. Of course, then there came the partisanship card. Of course, if you're bringing this up,
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clearly you're doing it for partisan gain. You're not doing it for the real benefit of the country.
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Then came the It's All Lies card. So, of course, you know, the Liberals are concerned with the
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Globe story, similar to Jody Wilson-Raybould. And there's so many inaccuracies. Well, we can't
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possibly respond. All of a sudden, you get the racism card after that. Of course, if you're
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talking about this, it must be because, you know, anti-Asian racism, that kind of thing. And then
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they finally decided, yeah, you know what? Yesterday's announcement, we're going to actually take
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this somewhat seriously. Probably, same reason they do anything, their poll numbers started to
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show some decline. Yeah. So, like, you basically laid out kind of the history of their talking
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points. Oh, absolutely. This is on everything. And as we're getting pushback on it. So, on the Friday
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when the Globe and Mail story came out, I was the first MP on our side to ask questions, having read
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the story. So, leading off, and it's, I'm hearing the parliamentary secretary's voice in my head as she's
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reciting exactly those lines, sequentially, one after another. And that's when you know there's
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something going on. Because if they're so bad at this, you know, if they're claiming racism,
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which is completely ridiculous, like, my kids are part Chinese. I worry about a future where they may
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be targeted by a foreign government, by an influence campaign, or for bullying or intimidation,
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for the family members who are also Chinese. Like, that is wrong. Like, we as a society,
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and as parliamentarians, and the government in Canada needs to be concerned about the fact that
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a foreign government is leaning on our own citizens, on permanent residents in this country,
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and not just leaning on them, cajoling them, bullying them, and using subterfuge to try and
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get to them to make them do something they wouldn't want to do all on their own. And then it's even more
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worrying that the government was so blasé about it, you know, calling it partisanship, and then,
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you know, impugning our motives, or bringing it up. And you're absolutely right, the election result
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wouldn't have changed. That's right. The election would have still been won by the, by the, by the
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liberals. Minority liberal. Minority liberal government, which in this case was actually
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the goal of the government in Beijing. That was their goal. That's what they wanted. They wouldn't
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have changed. But individual ridings, there was obviously an impact. Yes. Some in Toronto,
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and some in Vancouver. So at the very local level, because we know this, we have 338
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ridings in this country. There's 338 mini elections going on, just like in yours and my own. But in
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certain ridings, obviously, those campaigns were very, very focused, and obviously effective,
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because they had an impact. That's foreign interference. As a foreign government actively
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participating, they have a plan, a strategy in line to defeat certain candidates that they don't like.
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And it's most concerning that, you know, there's this talk of all these candidates that took support,
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whether knowingly or unknowingly. The government won't tell us. Yeah, who those nine are. Exactly.
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Who are they? Just tell us the names. Disclose the names. They obviously know who they are.
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Just tell us who they are. And then the public can decide, kind of, and make up an opinion on what
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should happen next. What we've been calling for consistently now is a public inquiry under the
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Inquiries Act. It's worked for the Nova Scotia mass shooting. They've done it with the ROLO
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Inquiry and Emergency Act, which is a requirement of the law. The government has the power to simply
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call an inquiry. Right now, again, for the second time, at least in the eight years I've been here,
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the government is defying Parliament. They defied Parliament when we ordered them to release
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documents during the pandemic from the Public Health Agency of Canada. They went to the extraordinary
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step of actually suing the Speaker to stop the release of the documents. Do you remember that?
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That was the two, for those looking to be up to date, it was the two scientists linked back to
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Beijing that were escorted out. The Winnipeg lab. The Winnipeg high security lab, which we still
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don't have answers on. It's funny how when it comes to Beijing, when it comes to China's Communist Party,
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there is always a problem with the Liberals. At first, this is the same government that when they
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came in, they wanted to first negotiate a free trade deal back in 2016. They had the door slammed
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in their face. This is the same government that slow walked the return of the two Michaels to
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Canada and the case of Meng Wanzhou. And they were completely incapable of managing that relationship.
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This is the group of people who slow walked banning Huawei from our 5G network. Whenever it comes to
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anything related to Beijing, they're so timid. What the people are not timid with is accusing every
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single person who disagrees with them of racism, of partisanship, of making it up, that you're lying.
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They get very defensive when we start talking about their relationship, their pushback, and actually
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looking after Canada's national security, and also the integrity of our elections when it comes to
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Beijing and China's Communist Party. That's worrisome that they're so soft when it comes to an issue of
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one individual foreign government that keeps repeatedly coming up in the news and in issues
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of national security, of election interference, of the sanctity and protection of our judicial system
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when it came to Meng Wanzhou's extradition case. So time and time again, the Prime Minister has been
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personally weak on this issue, and we need action, and we need this public inquiry.
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Well, according to the National Post article, they've laid out the whole gamut of errors by
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the Prime Minister. Let's also talk about the, well, we'll touch on it briefly, but the Trudeau
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Foundation received money that was tied back to Beijing, and they have since brought it back. So
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as we were talking just before the show, and you had mentioned it, even the Trudeau Foundation
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is giving the money back. So it goes against the kind of nothing to see card, or the it's all
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lies card played by the Prime Minister. They, there's no interest on the money, they shouldn't
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have taken it to begin with, but they're actually giving it back. So there must be something there.
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Obviously, you know, you know, it's really wrong when the Trudeau Foundation looks at the facts
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right now as they are being presented in the public. So they're obviously watching the debates,
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they're looking at the parliamentary committees, they're just seeing snippets out of question period,
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and they're like, yeah, this is, this is money we should have not accepted. And they go before
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the Prime Minister to return the money, for the namesake, the same namesake that he has,
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the Foundation returns the money. Well, the government at the time kept claiming there's
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nothing to see here. Conservatives and other opposition parties are, you know, playing politics.
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If the Foundation says there's something wrong with this money, we accept it and returns it.
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Obviously, it was as obvious as it was the rest of us. There's something going on, there is
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a great amount of smoke, and you need to act, and you need to react, in a way that ensures,
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again, that the public has confidence in what you're doing. And the government, again,
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has been slow to react. Again, first the denials, then the accusations. And it's the same thing time
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and time again that they've done on any major public policy issue that arises. They wedge,
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they stigmatize, they divide. And then... And somehow it's Harper's fault. Don't forget that.
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It's Harper's fault. Harper never did anything pre-2015. It was never a bother then. Well,
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the two elections in question are 2019 and 2021. They've had eight years. After eight years,
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they've had ample time to set up the systems to actually go after foreign agents who are actually
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working in our country to intimidate Canadians, intimidate and bully international students,
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you know, forcing them to do things they don't want to do. And many of these people, again,
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I have to remind people always, there are Canadians being intimidated and bullied by a foreign
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government in our own country. In our own country.
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Like I travel quite a bit to Vancouver and I've now met with both Hong Kongers, people who've
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arrived here, you know, 10, 14, three weeks before, and they were in Hong Kong. And they tell
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me harrowing stories of being intimidated by, you know, the Hong Kong police service, by their
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government, being charged with criminal offenses that have nothing to do with anything. And they
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come here to these stories and then they're told, Tom, I feel just as unsafe now in Canada and
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Vancouver as they did that. They continue to protest because these are democracy activists
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who really believe in the cause, but they do so wearing masks with sunglasses on. And they're
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afraid, even in Canada, of standing up to the CCP, to Beijing's communist government. And that is
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worrying. And to then have a government that, you know, slow walks the response and then wants to
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keep everything behind closed doors. Canadians deserve to know the truth. They deserve as much
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public information as possible. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. We always say that
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is very true because then we can all agree to what the facts are. Yep. Then it's not just
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secret documents, top secret documents at possession of the Globe and Mail. Everybody will have access
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to it. And then we can have a fulsome public debate. They'll never allow that to happen because
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they've been briefed on it as we found out. They knew about it. They benefited from it. And there is
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quotes here saying that the Beijing is only trustworthy of the liberals, right? Like it's an
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ongoing pattern. So let's move over to the nomination of this liberal MP that seems to be
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in the headlines more and more. It turns out that there was some pressure put on students in
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particular and others to go into this nomination meeting, some with the name of the preferred
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candidate on their arm in the nomination race. The government was apparently briefed on the fact
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that this individual might be compromised by Beijing. The prime minister, for whatever reason,
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or people within his party did nothing about it. That candidate became the member of parliament.
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And it's just the lack of action in my mind. If there was knowledge about this, why didn't they act?
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Well, why didn't they act? And now why are they refusing to have the chief of staff to the prime
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minister testify before the committee that's investigating foreign interference?
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They worked very hard to make sure she was excluded from the list of witnesses called to testify before
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the committee. The prime minister's chief of staff has been there for eight years. It's one of the
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longest serving political staff members. She knows that she must know things that nobody else knows.
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She is the lead advisor to the prime minister. She has influence. She has access. And she's the chief
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of staff to the prime minister. She speaks on his behalf. She has ears and a mouth. She literally is
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the stand-in person to make decisions on behalf of the prime minister. That's the chief of staff's job,
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is to manage the operations of the government. To have the liberal MPs at the parliamentary committee
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fight so hard to exclude her, you know that they must have had a briefing that she is well aware of,
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the prime minister is well aware of, where there's valuable information for both us opposition
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parties to gain access to, the knowledge and the information in, and for the public to know,
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because these parliamentary meetings are public. Everybody gets to see what we get to see and can
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make a judgment call what's going on, which is also why the prime minister's response to call
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this special rapporteur and ENSA COP behind closed doors. And he was so proud of himself making that
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announcement. He was so proud. Absolutely, because I'm sure the communication staff thought
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like a yes minister episode. At some point, you got to go and just, you know, never call an inquiry
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or a special advisor to make a report unless you know the report's findings will be at the end.
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He's already stacked the deck. He's already tipped the scales. And he already knows what the report
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will be like at the end of the day. Those are the types of reports the prime minister loves,
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where he basically gets to control the end product. So he knows what they're going to say at
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the end. That's why he was so happy yesterday. But the Canadians aren't buying it. I don't see
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journalists buying it as well. There's nothing less than a public inquiry. I think we'll give
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Canadians and us opposition members as well, confidence that we have all of the information
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and that the outcome will be action and activity on behalf of the government. They'll feel that
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pressure to actually, you know, clamp down on foreign interference in our elections. And when
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there are, when there is foreign interference and Canadians are being bullied and intimidated,
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there's actually activity, there's actions being taken. There are local campaign workers who have
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information to share. There are people who've been intimidated. There are WhatsApp channels,
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Weibo, WeChat. There is information out there for us to get at. And that should be made public
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before a parliamentary committee and a public inquiry as well.
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I couldn't agree with you more, Tom. We've gone way over time, but so much information. I think we
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could go on about this topic for quite some time. As you know, I give the guests the final word. So the
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Appreciate that very much. I listen to the podcast when I drive to the airport every week when I'm trying to
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get either to Vancouver and then to Ottawa here. I think on this particular issue, all Canadians,
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regardless of how you vote, can agree. Like, we should decide our elections. We are the ones who are voting.
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We're all citizens of this country. We have an interest in making sure they're free, they're fair.
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Everybody gets a chance. And we all understand the rules at the beginning of the election. It's all equal for
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every single political party, every candidate. What we can have is a foreign government getting involved
00:21:35.560
in our elections, and it's risk-free for them. There's no repercussions. No diplomat was expelled.
00:21:41.820
As far as we know, nobody was punished over what was going on. And there were Elections Canada rules
00:21:46.460
that were broken. Those are criminal offenses. It's a criminal offense to give money as a donation
00:21:51.580
when it's not your money. It's even more an offense than turn around, take the rebate, and then give it
00:21:56.060
back to the person who gave you the money in the first place. Like, there are criminal offenses that were
00:21:59.500
committed. My full expectation is that we will see a public inquiry called by the government.
00:22:03.920
They have to let Parliament decide, it's not the government. Parliament has called for it,
00:22:09.220
and it's up to the Prime Minister to show some leadership and actually call the inquiry.
00:22:14.080
And we're going to be calling on him to do that until the very end of June if he doesn't do it,
00:22:18.080
and then every single day afterwards until they do the right thing.
00:22:21.140
And we're also so dependent on other countries because we've given our way over manufacturing
00:22:25.740
for many, many years. So, well, that's a topic for another show. I do appreciate your time,
00:22:29.780
and I appreciate your time. That's Tom Kamich, member of Parliament for Calgary,
00:22:32.760
Shepard, also the critic for citizenship and immigration. Please like, comment, subscribe,
00:22:37.060
share this program. This is information that is extremely valuable, especially as we stare down
00:22:42.660
Bill C-11, the internet censorship bill. I also encourage you to check out our previous episode
00:22:46.960
with Rachel Thomas, the critic for Heritage, also the member of Parliament for Lethbridge,
00:22:52.180
an amazing show on Bill C-11, what it means for internet censorship. But this topic needs to get
00:22:56.980
out there. Tell your friends they can download it on platforms like CastBox, iTunes, Google Play,
00:23:01.680
Spotify, you name it. It is out there. New content every single Tuesday, 1.30 p.m. Eastern time.
00:23:06.840
Until then, remember, low taxes, less government, more freedom. That's the Blueprints.
00:23:10.880
Get out there. Do not fall in Europe. That's why Mr. Thomas, what they're doing today for you.
00:23:17.780
You don't know who applecerizment. That's why somebody is lying. That's why I love this story.
00:23:20.800
The optim acabar set by the thing. That doesn't matter.
00:23:27.260
The pain is lying. That's why I'm lying. Oh, you get out there.