The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - Justin Trudeau’s values test

00:00:00.000 Coming up on The Blueprint, Canada's Conservative Podcast, we'll be talking to MPs Kelly Block and Garnett Genuys as we discuss the Canada Summer Jobs Program and how it has been transformed in a very terrible way. Join us.

00:00:18.660 You're listening to The Blueprint, Canada's Conservative Podcast.

00:00:21.960 Is the Prime Minister actually saying that taxpayers should be on the hook when he breaks the law?

00:00:29.960 What is it going to take for the Prime Minister to have any respect for any laws in this country that may curb his out-of-control behaviour?

00:00:43.960 All these deficits leading to dozens of Americans burying Canadians in taxes.

00:00:49.960 And now, here's your host, Tony Clement.

00:00:58.620 Welcome to The Blueprint, Canada's Conservative Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Clement, Member of Parliament.

00:01:03.860 And today, I'm very pleased and proud to have two MPs to talk about the Canada Summer Jobs Program.

00:01:11.300 First, Kelly Block, the MP for Cartoon Trail, Eagle Creek in Saskatchewan. Kelly, thank you for joining us.

00:01:16.920 You're welcome.

00:01:17.360 And also with us is Garnett Genuys, who is the MP for Sherwood Park, Fort Saskatchewan in Alberta. Garnett, welcome.

00:01:24.680 Great to be with you, Tony.

00:01:25.660 We have this controversy that is growing by the day, actually, as the Canada Summer Jobs Program is rolled out by the Liberal government.

00:01:35.100 And it involves the introduction of what we're calling a values test for Canadians applying for the Canada Summer Jobs Program.

00:01:44.460 Maybe start with you, Garnett. Tell us what is different about the program and what this values test is all about.

00:01:49.720 Sure. Well, this is a completely unnecessary and, frankly, mean-spirited policy that requires groups that are applying for the Canada Summer Jobs Program to attest to their agreement with certain values.

00:02:03.140 And they touch on controversial social questions, things that some faith groups, many faith groups in this country may have a concern about it, at least certainly in the way that it's formulated by the government.

00:02:17.340 So on the basis of their freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, faith groups, but also people who might personally come from a faith perspective but run a private business or be involved in a cultural organization are not interested in checking this box.

00:02:30.980 But the government has created this policy whereby basically you have to indicate that you conform to their values.

00:02:37.120 You have to check the box attesting to their values test in order to access this funding.

00:02:43.380 And many of the groups who are negatively affected by this are charitable organizations that are doing things like feeding the hungry, helping the homeless, supporting refugees, giving young people an opportunity to go to camp.

00:02:56.820 These types of organizations, if they come from a perspective that says we're not going to sign on to a liberal values test, they're not able to get the funding.

00:03:05.160 So this policy is totally pointless, it achieves nothing, it harms these groups, and really it harms the people that are likely to benefit from services which would otherwise be available.

00:03:17.960 So thank you, Garen.

00:03:18.860 And Kelly, what's your perspective on this?

00:03:21.060 You've obviously been an MP for a number of parliaments now.

00:03:25.100 This is something completely new and different in terms of what the liberals are expecting people to sign before they get access to funding.

00:03:34.400 Absolutely, Tony.

00:03:35.960 I've been a member of parliament for 10 years, have had many opportunities to take a look at the Canada Summer Jobs Program, look at those individuals that have applied and may have been approved, and have had conversations with many over the years.

00:03:51.800 And this is something completely new and deeply concerning when we became aware that this attestation had been added to the application process.

00:04:06.160 We, you know, we raised concerns right away as a result of that understanding that those organizations, if they did not sign the attestation, you know, check off that box, stating that they agreed with the ideological position of the Liberal Party, they would no longer be able to receive this funding, and that's just totally unacceptable.

00:04:30.480 Garen, I've heard pushback from the Liberals on this, that this is merely ensuring that groups that receive government funding, taxpayer funding, are consistent with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

00:04:44.580 What's your answer to that?

00:04:45.800 Well, I think it's important to underline that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, constitutional rights protections are about constraining the government in its interaction with citizens and ensuring that the government will respect people's freedom of religion, freedom of conscience, won't discriminate against people on the basis of ethnic background, whatever the criteria is.

00:05:04.580 And that's certainly all important, but the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not some tool by which the federal government says you have to agree with, and it's actually not even agree with the Charter, it's with their extrapolation from the Charter on the basis of what they call Charter values.

00:05:20.600 When you're not actually talking about the Charter values, when you're not actually talking about the substance of the Charter, you're talking about their implied sense of what our Charter values, basically that means whatever they want it to mean.

00:05:30.580 And so in terms of what the liberals' intentions are, they came at this out of a situation where one of their MPs funded a pro-life activist group.

00:05:43.440 And we've taken the position that, look, there's an argument there that you shouldn't be funding activism, but you have to do that on an equal basis.

00:05:52.860 Some people might say, well, I don't agree with that activism, so I don't want it to be funded.

00:05:56.060 A lot of people I talk to wouldn't want to see taxpayer funds go to anti-energy activism.

00:06:02.640 I was just on the East Coast talking about this issue, and there's a lot of people there who don't want to see taxpayer money go to anti-seal hunt activism.

00:06:11.480 But you should have a common standard with respect to activism.

00:06:14.400 It's not fair to say we're going to fund activists from one perspective but not activists from another perspective.

00:06:19.960 But this goes far beyond that.

00:06:21.160 Totally.

00:06:21.880 This policy casts a very wide net, and most of those impacted are charities.

00:06:28.120 They're people like Harvest House Atlantic in Moncton.

00:06:32.680 The founder of that organization, its leadership comes from a faith-based perspective in wanting to serve those who have addictions issues and the homeless.

00:06:41.060 And that's where they're coming from in terms of their motivation is a faith perspective, but they're there to help and serve all people because that's what they want to do to make society, to make communities better.

00:06:53.760 So the Liberals, maybe this was the experience they started from, but this ballooned into something so much bigger than just a question of a couple activist groups.

00:07:04.420 This is a question of all kinds of different charities from coast to coast that are very concerned about not being able to serve as effectively as they have in the past.

00:07:13.680 Kelly Block, have we had any reaction from people who have been disadvantaged by this new Liberal policy yet?

00:07:20.320 Absolutely.

00:07:21.320 As a result of this attestation being attached to the application, we decided to put together a petition that we circulated not only to various organizations within our riding,

00:07:38.320 but to members of parliament across the country to send out to organizations in their riding to say,

00:07:46.480 look, if you are concerned by this addition to the application and you think that your charter rights are being violated,

00:07:56.360 please take a look at this petition and circulate it not only to members of your organization,

00:08:01.300 but to members of the public and I can tell you that we've received over a thousand signatures within our riding to date on petitions calling on the government to remove the attestation

00:08:16.900 and there have been hundreds of petitions coming into our office from across the country.

00:08:23.160 So there is a huge reaction.

00:08:24.500 People are reacting to this and saying, and this is a point that should be underlined, a couple of things.

00:08:30.840 First of all, there is in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms a freedom of expression section of the Charter,

00:08:38.380 which the Liberals don't seem to care very much about.

00:08:41.780 And the other thing is the hypocrisy of the Liberal position whereby they claim to be the party of diversity intolerance

00:08:50.700 and yet they do not apply that to themselves and are intolerant of other people's views that are different from their own.

00:08:57.700 And that's what we're seeing in this case.

00:08:59.440 Absolutely.

00:09:00.420 You know, when I take a look at this policy, it certainly isn't about the activities or services of an organization

00:09:08.420 and what they are engaged in, but this policy, I believe, is targeting the personal beliefs of the individuals who run those organizations.

00:09:17.060 And to me, it's like a thin edge of the wedge when you look at a policy like this.

00:09:24.640 Tony, your point on diversity is spot on.

00:09:27.480 I think the Prime Minister's approach to diversity is basically any diversity except diversity of thought, right?

00:09:33.360 Yes, if you look different, if you have a different background, if you have a different experience,

00:09:40.200 but certainly we've got to watch out for those people that actually have different opinions,

00:09:45.540 that their differences of experience, of background have led them to substantively different conclusions

00:09:50.320 from the government on these and other challenging questions.

00:09:55.920 I think that as Conservatives, we have a proud tradition of respecting the full spectrum of diversity.

00:10:03.360 Which includes, yes, a recognition that people's differences of experience

00:10:06.840 and simply the fact that we all work out difficult questions in different ways,

00:10:12.740 come to different conclusions, that we should respect that diversity.

00:10:16.320 We're the only party to respect that diversity internally to our caucus.

00:10:21.720 And now, unfortunately, we seem to be the only party that is willing to respect that diversity in terms of funding,

00:10:29.420 in terms of the way we apply the Canada Summer Jobs Program.

00:10:32.200 Both the Liberals and the NDP voted against our opposition motion.

00:10:36.220 So there was a motion before Parliament this week on this issue from the Conservative Party

00:10:42.060 saying that we should respect freedom of conscience and freedom of thought,

00:10:46.740 and that was turned down.

00:10:47.660 That was defeated by the Liberals and the NDP.

00:10:49.780 Exactly.

00:10:50.540 There was one Liberal, Scott Sims, one NDP, David Christopherson.

00:10:55.680 But other than that, the entire Liberal and NDP caucus opposed this motion.

00:11:01.460 Obviously, every Conservative supported it.

00:11:02.860 The leader of the Green Party also supported it.

00:11:05.440 So I noticed that more Liberals than that are uncomfortable with this position,

00:11:09.820 and some of them are trying to send signals back home, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

00:11:13.780 This wasn't me.

00:11:14.620 I'm not happy with what the Prime Minister is doing on this.

00:11:16.860 But ultimately, all except one of those MPs didn't have the courage to actually vote

00:11:23.940 on behalf of what they were hearing from their constituents.

00:11:26.800 Having been to many Liberal ridings throughout the country to talk to people about this,

00:11:30.240 I know there's a great deal of discontent.

00:11:32.280 Many of these charitable organizations, these faith-based organizations,

00:11:34.800 have actually had funding approved by their Liberal MP in the past.

00:11:40.140 We met with different organizations, organizations like the Atlantic Baptist Housing Group

00:11:45.820 that's headquartered in the Minister of Health's riding in Moncton,

00:11:50.400 but they have an impact throughout the region.

00:11:52.680 They would have received Canada Summer Jobs funding in the past

00:11:57.020 that this Member of Parliament, this Minister, this Liberal signed off on.

00:12:01.800 But now because of this policy, they're not going to be able to apply for that funding,

00:12:06.240 and apparently their Member of Parliament sees no problem with it.

00:12:08.960 And this is interesting because, as you know, MPs get a heads-up

00:12:13.340 on which programs for Canada Summer Jobs are being funded,

00:12:17.600 and we have a certain period of time to have an opinion about that,

00:12:21.880 to make sure that some groups, that it's fair and equitable across our ridings,

00:12:26.320 and some groups aren't left off inadvertently, and so on.

00:12:29.580 So we have seen the decisions already, which will be soon to be transmitted out

00:12:35.880 to the successful as well as the unsuccessful applicants.

00:12:39.420 What I've seen in my own riding is not only that certain groups,

00:12:43.480 mostly summer camps in my riding, it's Muskoka and Parry Sound districts

00:12:48.100 are places where a lot of kids from the city come up and go to camp,

00:12:52.140 and some of those are faith-based groups, Jewish groups, Christian groups, etc.,

00:12:56.260 who have summer camps associated with them.

00:12:58.780 And some of them declined to sign the attestation form.

00:13:03.840 So therefore, even though they'd had funding for several years in the past,

00:13:07.580 no problem, no issue, they're just making sure that kids get some fresh air

00:13:11.420 and some outdoors and learn some survival skills, those kinds of things.

00:13:14.780 It's nothing insidious.

00:13:18.080 They're off the list because they didn't sign the attestation.

00:13:20.700 What I also have learned, however, is that there have been a number of camps

00:13:24.760 who have either in good faith or held their nose, signed the attestation,

00:13:30.100 have received funding for many years in the past, who got zero funding this year.

00:13:34.540 And so I really think that there is a chilling effect within the bureaucracy,

00:13:39.020 even if—and I liken it to Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football.

00:13:43.980 You know, every time Lucy says,

00:13:45.840 don't worry, I'll place the football, you can kick it.

00:13:48.180 And as soon as Charlie Brown comes around, she lifts the football away.

00:13:52.320 That's exactly what the Liberal government is doing to many of these faith-based groups

00:13:56.200 who, in good conscience and because they deliver excellent programs,

00:14:00.320 had applied, and now they're left in the dust.

00:14:02.680 It's just something that you're concerned about, Kelly Block.

00:14:05.040 Absolutely.

00:14:05.860 You know, I have heard from many faith-based organizations who would say,

00:14:10.580 look, I'm getting back to the point of diversity,

00:14:13.340 that we are a part of that diversity,

00:14:15.980 that the Prime Minister and the Liberal Party say they value.

00:14:20.840 And yet we are seeing that whether or not they've signed the attestation or couldn't,

00:14:27.700 that many of them are not receiving funding from this program.

00:14:32.040 Garnett, Jenius, your thoughts on this too?

00:14:35.040 Yeah, I mean, I think it's right on point.

00:14:37.340 What we're seeing in general is a frustration from the full range, faith-based charities,

00:14:43.940 but also some other organizations who just don't feel they should be wading into some of these social questions.

00:14:50.160 They don't think it's appropriate for them to be checking the box.

00:14:52.940 We've heard from municipalities that are affected by this as well.

00:14:55.320 There's a lot of frustration on this.

00:14:57.860 And I think what we're going to see going forward is many of these groups realize if they have supported other parties

00:15:06.600 or if they have had people within their organization support other parties in the past,

00:15:10.900 that they're just not welcome in those parties anymore,

00:15:14.020 that people who have sincere convictions which don't align 100% with the orthodoxy of the Prime Minister,

00:15:20.220 they're just not being welcomed in these other political parties.

00:15:24.380 They're being shown the door.

00:15:25.240 And so certainly it's important for us as conservatives to be engaged, to welcome them,

00:15:31.420 to build those bridges with many of these charitable organizations

00:15:35.500 and to work with them on plans to address the very important social issues

00:15:40.460 that they're concerned about in their communities, homelessness, poverty.

00:15:44.140 And I think we have a real opportunity to do this because groups that in some cases

00:15:48.560 may have been inclined to support other parties in the past are now being pushed out

00:15:53.820 and now are in a position to be much more likely to work with us.

00:15:58.740 Well, this raises an important question because if this is the—and I've said this as well.

00:16:04.080 If this is what the Liberal government is doing, first of all, there won't be a Liberal government forever.

00:16:09.500 So you've created a precedent where certain government programs are being denied to citizens,

00:16:14.840 taxpayers of Canada, in this case young people, or the funding of young people,

00:16:20.760 because of a divergence of opinion about certain social issues or political issues or what have you.

00:16:28.180 So what prevents a future government—I'm not even going to say what party,

00:16:35.020 or it certainly wouldn't be our party, but you never know what's coming down the road in the future.

00:16:39.320 A future government that says, oh, okay, well, this precedent was set in summer jobs,

00:16:45.300 so in order to access this program or that program, which is being relied on for social services or what have you,

00:16:52.860 that you now have to have this values test.

00:16:55.000 This is how insidious it is.

00:16:56.740 Kelly?

00:16:57.460 Absolutely, and I think that's what's created a lot of the momentum in this conversation.

00:17:04.420 Faith-based organizations understood very quickly what this meant for them,

00:17:09.220 but I think that very conversation is happening amongst other organizations,

00:17:14.960 and people reflecting on what they are observing and saying,

00:17:19.700 if they will do that to these organizations on this issue, what's next?

00:17:26.200 And as I've said before, I think many are seeing this as a thin edge of the wedge and also precedent-setting.

00:17:32.740 Can you imagine if—and this would never happen—but can you imagine if a conservative government said,

00:17:39.360 in order to get infrastructure funding, you at another level of government have to check a box saying you're in favor of pipelines?

00:17:48.260 I mean, that would be obviously inappropriate for us to say that you have to agree with us in order to get—

00:17:54.220 in order for us to collaborate on something like infrastructure, and we would never do that.

00:17:58.600 But the liberals play these kinds of games all the time. 0.86

00:18:02.740 And I mean, another maybe similar way in which they do this is they're saying to provinces,

00:18:07.520 in order to get access to certain funds related to climate change and the environment,

00:18:13.120 you have to sign on to their particular carbon tax plan.

00:18:15.900 So you have to sign on with us and agree with us on this in order for us to work with you in another area.

00:18:20.560 That's not a way to run a country and build consensus.

00:18:24.560 You have to accept that you're going to have some areas of disagreement,

00:18:27.320 but you can still work together with people in the midst of that disagreement.

00:18:30.540 And especially when it comes to vital charitable work, I mean, imposing a test in terms of people's private convictions

00:18:37.360 and using that as a basis for determining whether or not they can be involved in charitable programs,

00:18:44.640 it's horrendous, it's something we would never do.

00:18:47.780 But I encourage people on the other side of this debate to think about where they would be

00:18:51.820 if the shoe was on the other foot and how they would feel.

00:18:54.200 Exactly, yeah.

00:18:55.100 And think about it more broadly, because it's not about just what's happening in summer jobs this summer,

00:19:00.380 but they're establishing a precedent that they may not like in future governments, for sure.

00:19:05.360 Now it's time for a call to action for our listeners.

00:19:08.400 What can they do if they believe that this is a fundamental question of freedom of conscience or freedom of thought?

00:19:15.400 How can they get involved?

00:19:16.960 Kelly, you have a petition.

00:19:18.560 Do you want to talk a little bit more about that?

00:19:20.640 Absolutely.

00:19:22.060 Feel free to go onto my website and download that petition.

00:19:29.080 Call my office.

00:19:30.100 I know there is an e-petition online as well.

00:19:33.240 And contact your Member of Parliament.

00:19:35.400 Contact their office to find out what more you could do.

00:19:39.760 And write the Prime Minister and his Cabinet Ministers to let them know what your views are on this type of initiative.

00:19:51.240 What's your website?

00:19:52.580 It is kellyblock.ca.

00:19:54.340 Very good.

00:19:54.980 And Garnett?

00:19:55.640 Kelly's petition is also on the sort of central website that Andrew's office has set up,

00:20:02.500 stopthevaluestest.ca.

00:20:04.480 Stopthevaluestest.ca is a great resource for information,

00:20:08.220 but people can also find specifically that petition on there.

00:20:11.900 Absolutely, people should be contacting their MP about this.

00:20:14.500 But I would also say to your listeners who are maybe more politically engaged than the average,

00:20:19.940 if you're involved in a faith community,

00:20:22.040 talk to your friends within that community.

00:20:25.620 Talk to your pastor, your priest, your rabbi.

00:20:27.900 Make sure that they're aware of these issues and encourage them to think about being a little bit more engaged in the political process.

00:20:37.260 Because sometimes faith leaders are reluctant to do that.

00:20:40.940 But at the same time, when you see a policy from government that directly is an attack on their freedom of religion and conscience,

00:20:47.460 I think their perspective is important.

00:20:50.380 And I think people that are engaged politically and are part of faith communities can play a role in having those conversations within their communities.

00:20:58.080 Thank you.

00:20:59.520 Kelly Block, member of Parliament, Garnet Januas, member of Parliament.

00:21:03.340 Thank you for being part of the Blueprint, Canada's Conservative Podcast.

00:21:08.120 It was a very engaging discussion on a very topical issue.

00:21:11.820 Maybe not top of mind everywhere in the country,

00:21:14.080 but certainly something that speaks to the kind of Canada that we want to live in.

00:21:18.520 So thank you for being part of our program.

00:21:20.660 Thank you so much.

00:21:25.520 Thank you for listening to the Blueprint, Canada's Conservative Podcast.

00:21:31.800 To find more episodes, interviews, and in-depth discussions of politics in Canada,

00:21:37.100 search for the Blueprint on iTunes or visit podcast.conservative.ca.

00:21:48.520 Thank you.

The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - April 05, 2018

Justin Trudeau’s values test

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