The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - Katie Telford answers questions regarding election interference

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome once again to The Blueprints. This is Canada's Conservative Podcast. I'm your

00:00:07.740 host, Jamie Schmael, Member of Parliament for Halliburton, Quartholakes, Brock with new content

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00:00:16.580 you today, so please like, comment, subscribe, and share this program. Great content on the way. And

00:00:23.540 of course, you can download it, listen to it on platforms like CastBox, iTunes, Google Play,

00:00:27.740 and Spotify, you name it, it is out there. We're going to bring back a guest you're well familiar

00:00:33.700 with, Larry Brock, Member of Parliament for Brantford-Brandt. Once again on the show, my

00:00:38.100 goodness, you have a lot to talk about. We have a lot to talk about with you. We saw your performance

00:00:43.640 last week in committee questioning Katie Telford, the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff regarding

00:00:48.780 alleged election interference from Beijing, and you did a bang-up job. So did the rest of the crew

00:00:54.940 who were firing away Katie Telford, some pretty tough questions, some pretty interesting developments

00:00:59.780 coming out of that as well. We'll talk about that in just a minute. But Larry, what are your

00:01:04.020 thoughts on your line of questioning when you had Katie Telford in the hot seat?

00:01:10.920 Well, I was the first Conservative member, Jamie, to ask questions, and I had a second opportunity

00:01:18.120 towards the latter end of the meeting. The first line of questioning was to really narrow down

00:01:26.920 as to what the Prime Minister knew, when he knew of it, and wherever possible to hammer down

00:01:35.000 the actual content of those particular briefings. So my first round consisted of trying to establish

00:01:43.520 that the Prime Minister reviewed a series of briefings from CSIS, Canada's National Spy Agency,

00:01:51.860 in the month of January 2022, which essentially outlined the number of candidates, the 11 candidates,

00:02:01.000 who have received clandestine funding directly from the Communist Party in China. And in typical

00:02:09.160 fashion, she could not get into specifics. But, you know, many members reminded her that we weren't

00:02:17.720 asking for specifics. We were simply asking for, did that particular meeting take place? Were you present

00:02:26.140 at that particular meeting? And what, if anything, was done? Now, it's interesting that literally two

00:02:34.540 hours, Jamie, before we started our questions of Katie Telford, that we received the undertaking

00:02:44.740 that Jody Thomas promised the committee back on March the 1st. She provided a number of undertakings

00:02:52.900 to give us some specifics as to the timing of meetings between the Prime Minister, briefings, I should say,

00:03:02.960 between the Prime Minister and our spy agencies, the briefings to cabinet briefings to ministers, briefings

00:03:12.300 to and meetings and political party representatives. What's interesting though, Jamie is March the 1st,

00:03:19.460 she gave an undertaking. The cover letter to this particular document is dated through a computer

00:03:28.080 search. It was timestamped as of April the 6th, which was last Thursday. So for whatever reason,

00:03:38.340 the Liberal Party, the witness Jody Thomas, Prime Minister's National Security Advisor, chose to sit on

00:03:48.180 this particular important document and literally giving us, the committee members, next to no notice

00:03:55.220 as to how we could utilize the document. So that, in my view, is indicative of the overall cover-up that

00:04:05.560 many members of the Liberal team, the Prime Minister himself, his ministers, his backbenchers,

00:04:12.760 and now staffers, are trying to protect the Prime Minister. What came out of our preparation

00:04:22.520 for this particular meeting, Jamie, was overwhelming evidence. Overwhelming evidence that has actually

00:04:32.120 been reviewed. It wasn't just an intelligence source. It wasn't just a conversation between

00:04:39.020 a whistleblower from CSIS, which I will elaborate on in a second, a whistleblower sharing details with

00:04:46.800 media. We were actually privy to documents prepared by the Privy Council Office that was delivered to our

00:04:56.580 committee, which is indicative of foreign election interference generally being on the radar map. And we had

00:05:06.620 evidence going back to 2017, that CSIS and other security agencies were continually bringing up this information to the

00:05:18.540 Prime Minister, which begs the question, what did he do with it? Well, the answer is he did nothing with it. Because the

00:05:27.680 material that we received, the material that was reviewed by the newspapers and the reporters,

00:05:37.680 clearly showed that there was an overall objective by Beijing. And that objective was to curry favor

00:05:46.080 with the Liberals to ensure a Liberal election in both 2019 and 2021. And that they would take active

00:05:56.080 interference steps to defeat certain conservatives, particularly of Asian nature, Asian background,

00:06:06.240 whose values and position with respect to China did not align with that of the Communist Party of China.

00:06:15.520 So what was frustrating for us, Jamie, frustrating for me is in the face of specific evidence

00:06:24.240 that the Privy Council Office had shared with us that Katie Telford, the second most powerful member of the Liberal

00:06:33.600 government, could not confirm even the existence of it, claiming again national security issues. Now, on that point,

00:06:43.680 it was interesting, the timing was interesting, that the CBC this morning released a report.

00:06:49.440 In the report, they spoke to a former intelligence expert by the name of Wesley Wark. He was the former

00:06:57.600 national security advisor to two former prime ministers, one a Liberal, one a Conservative prime minister.

00:07:05.840 And he was asked that specific question. If Katie Telford relies upon national security, 0.83

00:07:14.480 is that what this particular committee can expect? And he said, she would be able, this is a national security

00:07:22.480 advisor, the same sort of position that Jody Thomas has currently with the prime minister.

00:07:29.280 He confirmed that Katie Telford would be able to discuss the extent and timing of all briefings

00:07:38.560 given to the prime minister on allegations that Beijing tried to tilt the 2019 and 2021 elections

00:07:48.960 towards the Liberals. When that very point was brought out in a line of questioning between

00:07:56.720 our colleague Rachel Thomas and Miss Telford. Miss Telford did not give any credence

00:08:05.040 to that opinion and simply relied upon her talking points, which, in our view,

00:08:12.480 was indicative of a further cover up. Now, can I say definitively that we didn't get anywhere

00:08:21.360 over the two and a half plus hours? I can't say that because we went into this particular

00:08:28.560 committee hearing working under two different hypotheses. The first hypothesis is that the

00:08:38.400 prime minister did not receive any and all briefings, that they were selectively vetted, presumably by Katie

00:08:47.920 Telford or Jody Thomas, which could give credence support for the prime minister's assertion

00:08:57.360 that specifically he did not receive any specific information regarding the clandestine funding to

00:09:06.320 those 11 candidates, nine being liberal, two being conservative. And you know, Jamie, he's repeated that

00:09:13.680 numerous times inside the House, outside the chamber across this country. So interestingly, though,

00:09:21.600 she quashed Katie Telford quashed that hypothetical that hypothesis, and confirmed that there was nothing

00:09:30.160 and is nothing that she receives that she deliberately, intentionally or non-intentionally,

00:09:38.800 holds back from the prime minister. Everything gets transferred to the prime minister. The prime minister

00:09:45.920 reads everything that he receives by way of national security and intelligence matters. That is significant,

00:09:55.680 because that then gives credence to our second working hypothesis, that he has all along received

00:10:05.760 this information, some of which being very damning information regarding covert real attempts to influence

00:10:16.560 our past two elections. And he chose to do nothing, because by doing something,

00:10:23.760 he would have had to alert Canadians and Canadians could have resulted in a different outcome.

00:10:30.960 He did this to protect himself. He did this to protect the Liberal Party of Canada.

00:10:37.520 We also heard during that committee, our colleague Michael Cooper questioning Katie Telford, talking about

00:10:43.200 a email that Bob Soroya, the then member of parliament from Markham Unionville received. And it was from the

00:10:52.000 the consul in Toronto, I believe, basically inferring that after the 2021 election, Mr. Soroya, my seatmate for

00:11:01.120 the first few years after being elected first in 2015. And that's what we should also point out. Bob Soroya was

00:11:06.640 elected in 2015. If memory serves, they'll look over 50% of the vote in a red wave. That was when the Liberals took all of

00:11:15.280 Atlantic Canada, they took massive swaths in Ontario and elsewhere. When the Liberals were on the rise,

00:11:21.120 Bob Soroya still won with over 50% of the vote. And now there's evidence on the table that's showing that

00:11:30.480 Bob Soroya received a cryptic message from the consulate, I believe in Toronto, basically eluding

00:11:36.640 the fact that after that election in 2021, that he would be unemployed.

00:11:42.640 That is extremely disturbing evidence. And I hope that this is thoroughly investigated. I know that

00:11:50.880 Mr. Soroya will probably be sharing more details with the press in the next coming days. I know the

00:11:58.000 press wanted to give more details to that. But I don't think it's incumbent upon any of Mr. Soroya's

00:12:04.800 former colleagues or any members of the PROC committee to shed any further light on that,

00:12:11.600 because he is the person that's best suited to give the press the full facts. This needs to be

00:12:18.960 fully investigated by CSIS. If it already has not been, I wouldn't be surprised if CSIS is already

00:12:26.640 aware of this. There could be another report along those lines that, in fact, Mr. Soroya

00:12:34.560 has been impacted by foreign interference. These are issues that I was alive to approximately two

00:12:41.680 weeks ago, when I had the opportunity at the ethics committee to sub for one of our colleagues, Jamie,

00:12:48.480 and Kenny Chu, along with former CSIS officials, testified at that committee. And one of the questions I

00:12:58.160 asked Mr. Chu was whether his experience at the hands of Beijing's interference abroad and locally in his

00:13:10.480 riding was similarly felt by our former colleague Alice Wong in the Lower Mainland area and Bob Soroya.

00:13:19.920 And he said, absolutely. Without getting into details, Jamie, he said, absolutely. They experienced

00:13:26.720 the same sort of issues. They were receiving the same sort of feedback at the doors, that they were

00:13:34.560 a person not to be trusted by their constituency. And this was all because of the misinformation campaign

00:13:43.040 that local officials working with Beijing were trying to do to disrupt, obviously, the outcome.

00:13:50.640 So if on this one path, we have Justin Trudeau being briefed about potential election interference and basically doing

00:14:00.880 nothing about it. On the parallel side, you have, as we talked about a couple of weeks ago, the entire board at the

00:14:10.400 Trudeau Foundation resigning over some pretty questionable donations, potentially from a few agents stemming from Beijing

00:14:19.280 and looking at this article here from the press, talking about the foundation's board members, which, of course, as mentioned, just all resigned.

00:14:28.560 We're trying to track down that donation, that 140,000. And the timing of those donations were around 2016, 2017.

00:14:36.560 And you just pointed out, if he was briefed around 2017, there just seems to be a bunch of things converging all at once

00:14:43.200 around the common theme that there looks to be some pretty shady stuff going on, including, as we're talking about,

00:14:51.600 potential election interference.

00:14:54.480 You know, it's abundantly and obviously clear to me and should be to you and to Canadians who are watching this podcast,

00:15:05.360 that there is definitely something wrong with our democracy, that this has occurred right under our noses.

00:15:13.840 In fact, Jamie, I would actually go back and I would even suggest that it goes back to 2013.

00:15:20.320 If you recall, our block colleagues in the House during numerous question periods were questioning the amount of foreign

00:15:32.080 donations to Justin Trudeau's own riding in Papineau, Quebec, that 85% in 2013 of all of his donations

00:15:46.480 to that electoral district association was foreign, that it was coming primarily from Chinese Canadians

00:15:57.360 who did not live in that particular riding. I think that is very, very concerning. And I think it really

00:16:05.600 speaks to the overall change in the policy of the Trudeau government as early as 2015.

00:16:18.960 In my view, Justin Trudeau wanted to pursue the same sort of legacy that he felt his father,

00:16:25.040 Pierre Trudeau had with China, that he was concerned about the strained relationship that Canada had with

00:16:35.360 China under Prime Minister Harper. And in my view, this was part of his legacy to reopen those negotiations,

00:16:44.080 to reopen relationships. But as you know, in our view, that the relationship between Canada and China is

00:16:51.760 more strained than ever. So whatever aspirations this Prime Minister had, it's an abject failure.

00:17:00.080 Like most of his agenda. Exactly.

00:17:03.520 So where do we go from here? We know that Trudeau, Justin Trudeau, usually skates on a lot of this

00:17:08.560 stuff. He's like Teflon. It's unbelievable what this Prime Minister gets away with. And his cavalier

00:17:14.480 attitude, I think that's what bothers me as well, that I don't think we've talked about much, is just

00:17:19.280 basically, he has no time for the rules. Rules are for the little people, in Justin Trudeau's mind,

00:17:23.920 which just drives me insane. And as I've often said, as we've all said in the House numerous times,

00:17:32.000 this particular issue is a nonpartisan issue. Anyone, any one of our colleagues in the House

00:17:41.600 proudly serves the interests of this country, and the interests of their respective constituents

00:17:48.720 in their riding, and should be free of foreign influence and interference. For this Prime Minister

00:17:57.680 to suggest, as he did, that we were the ones making this partisan, that we were the ones that were

00:18:08.240 anti-racist, or racist towards Chinese Canadians. He was deflecting and blaming us

00:18:18.320 for something that any member of the parliament, any member of parliament in this country should be

00:18:24.720 standing for. And that's to preserve the integrity of our democracy. And that is a segue, I believe,

00:18:32.000 to where I want to go with this next comment. And if you recall, Jamie, one of the whistleblowers,

00:18:40.560 and I think there's more than one whistleblower from CSIS, one whistleblower prepared an op-ed that

00:18:47.840 was shared in one of our national papers. And it was to explain why they leaked the CSIS documents

00:18:55.120 to the media. And it starts off very poignantly, in my view, not to party, not to person, but to my country,

00:19:06.960 to its democratic institutions, and to my fellow Canadians. This person was frustrated after he and

00:19:17.840 several of his colleagues, sharing damning information to the Prime Minister or the Prime

00:19:25.440 Minister's office, regarding the extent and the seriousness of this Chinese foreign election

00:19:34.160 interference. And it fell on deaf ears, election after election. This person bravely took this

00:19:47.040 point to the highest level, knowing full well, they could be persecuted under the appropriate

00:19:53.920 statutes for this leak, but felt he had an obligation to this country to share that. Now, when you have that

00:20:02.400 that strength of conviction in terms of what was actually shared, it's completely disingenuous for

00:20:12.320 this Prime Minister, for Katie Telford, for any Cabinet Minister to suggest that there are so many

00:20:20.080 inaccuracies with respect to these leaks, without giving us specifics, without flat out denying that this

00:20:29.200 document actually exists. This person chose the courageous route, and I would only hope that the

00:20:37.120 Prime Minister would have displayed that same level of courage. Clearly, he has not.

00:20:43.360 What happens next? What happens next? Does Justin Trudeau face any consequences? I think the media is

00:20:51.520 trying to bring forward as much evidence to the Canadian public as possible. We're doing the same.

00:20:55.920 Does Justin Trudeau finally take that walk in the snow? My spidey sense is that this is probably not

00:21:04.640 the last of the leaks. I'm quite convinced that the press, for whatever reason, have held back

00:21:16.000 some reports. I could be wrong on this, Jamie, to see whether or not any relevant points would have

00:21:24.080 come out of Katie Telford's examination. So I wouldn't be surprised if we receive further reports

00:21:30.800 in the next few weeks. To your broader question, where do we go from here? I know that these are

00:21:37.280 early days. There will be some some discussions in terms of strategy moving forward as to how this

00:21:44.400 particular committee will reconstitute itself to continue this examination. I feel that there are

00:21:52.000 further witnesses. I can't identify who those witnesses are. I'm not part of this committee,

00:21:56.800 as you know, but I would anticipate further witnesses may be called. Katie Telford gave us

00:22:02.960 undertakings as well. I lost track as to how many undertakings that she gave. Whenever we receive the

00:22:10.400 documents pursuant to those undertakings, that may cause us to reconsider having her return or having

00:22:19.040 another official return. So early days, I think the question is a valid question, Jamie, but early days

00:22:25.760 for me to opine, other than to say, and this was the takeaway from our huddle before we left the committee

00:22:33.440 room, as this is one step along the path. There are many other steps that we will be taking, but this was

00:22:42.960 one small step along that journey. Including that push for a public inquiry. Of course, you still have

00:22:48.400 David Johnston doing his work as the rapporteur. I'm sure the ski buddy of Justin Trudeau will.

00:22:54.880 It's unfortunate somebody with that high credibility within the Canadian public to say yes to a

00:23:01.680 position like this. It's something that should be beyond approach, right? It should be clean.

00:23:07.600 Everything that has come out in the last few weeks, particularly with the foundation, in my view,

00:23:14.880 screens out for a public inquiry now. In my view, David Johnston, the special rapporteur,

00:23:24.880 has more than enough information. He's kept up, just like every other Canadian has kept up with the drip

00:23:31.920 drip-drip approach to this particular scandal. He has the ability to say, I have heard enough.

00:23:39.200 I recommend a public inquiry. Whether Justin Trudeau follows through on that recommendation

00:23:46.240 remains to be seen. We know he's got a horrible track record in following up with recommendations.

00:23:52.400 Let's take a look at NSACOP. The all-party, non-partisan group of our colleagues in the House from all

00:24:01.840 four parties, including senators, who were tasked of having the highest security level to review

00:24:10.160 highly sensitive material and to report directly back to the Prime Minister. This committee was

00:24:17.360 formulated in 2017, right smack dab in the middle of this controversy. NSACOP releases its report in the

00:24:28.400 summer of 2019, essentially confirming, Jamie, and highlighting everything, without getting into

00:24:38.160 monetary numbers, confirming everything that the whistleblower shared with the press. But more

00:24:45.600 disturbingly, shared with the Prime Minister significant recommendations moving forward. And here we are,

00:24:53.840 four years later, and nothing has been done. Well, if it benefits the Liberal Party,

00:25:00.640 why would we be in much more hurry? Absolutely. And you know what's going to happen. To your quickly

00:25:07.040 point, then we've got to get out of here way over time. But you can imagine if David Johnston does come

00:25:11.280 out and say, yes, we need a public inquiry, then you know that the Liberal talking heads, the Gerald

00:25:18.640 buts and the rest of them will be so we told you so we told you so you didn't have to go after David

00:25:24.160 Johnston. But at the same point, if this would just let fly, I don't know if the pressure would have

00:25:29.520 meant, you know, made a difference. You know what I mean? Like, we had to point out that this process

00:25:34.000 should be clean. And shouldn't people shouldn't have to wonder what if a personal connection is going

00:25:39.040 to get in the way of a judgment call. As I say, nonpartisan issue. Exactly. So as you know,

00:25:47.840 go ahead. I was going to give you my final statement. You know, you know how the show goes.

00:25:51.680 I don't mean to tell you just go ahead. It's your show too. Canadians deserve nothing less than full 1.00

00:26:00.320 transparency on yet another significant scandal of this Trudeau government. We as His Majesty's loyal

00:26:12.000 opposition and members of the Prague Committee will continue to chip away at this darkness, at this

00:26:21.280 whole concept of nothing to see here, folks. We've done everything by the books. We will continue to

00:26:27.920 chip away at that to shine the light on the truth. And finally, restore and this is the important

00:26:34.080 thing here, Jamie. Public confidence in our institutions is at an all time low. And I think

00:26:41.680 I've shared with you one of the rationales as to why I left the Crown Attorney system is I wanted to

00:26:48.480 to impart in some way, try to get back the confidence level that Canadians should have with our political

00:26:56.160 leaders and with our democratic institutions. It is at an all time low. We as Conservatives will

00:27:02.640 continue to shine light to give that confidence back to Canadians. Larry Brock, Member of Parliament,

00:27:08.720 Branford Brantz, the man of the hour, the guy who put Katie Telford on the hot seat. Well done, Larry.

00:27:14.320 You are a rock star and your history as a Crown Prosecutor really showed during committee.

00:27:18.880 Congratulations. Keep up the good work. Appreciate him coming on. Appreciate your time as well for

00:27:23.360 listening and watching. Don't forget to tell your friends they can download it on platforms like

00:27:27.200 CastBox, iTunes, Google Play and Spotify. Don't forget to add a comment, subscribe and share this

00:27:31.920 program. We would appreciate that too. New content every single Tuesday, 1.30pm Eastern time. Until then,

00:27:38.080 remember low taxes, less government, more freedom. That is the blueprint.

The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - April 20, 2023

Katie Telford answers questions regarding election interference

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