Keystone XL Expansion
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Summary
In this episode, three other members of Parliament join me to discuss the cancellation of the Keystone XL pipeline project and the impact it will have on their communities and the rest of the country. We also discuss the impact on Indigenous Peoples and the communities they live in.
Transcript
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I'm your host, Jamie Schmael, Member of Parliament for Halliburton-Caworthalakes-Brock.
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As always, we have an amazing show lined up for you.
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Actually, something a little different this time.
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We're going to do a panel discussion with three other members of Parliament on a decision
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that will affect pretty much every corner of this great country.
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The cancellation of the Keystone XL pipeline, a decision made by the new president of the
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United States, Joe Biden, to cancel that permit that allows the project to go forward.
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So with me, and we need you to please subscribe, comment, share this program, help us push back
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against the ever-moving liberal agenda, especially on a topic this important.
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And of course, if you can't listen to it and watch it right now on Facebook, you can download
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this later on platforms like CastBox, iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, you name it.
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It's out there because the content is so important.
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And that message that we need your help with, again, we need to edge into your social network.
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Hit your friends that might be open to hearing this Conservative message because it is very
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important because we need to ensure that the Conservative Party of Canada is the next government
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of this great Canada country in order to ensure economic success and prosperity going forward.
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Joining me, as I mentioned, three members of Parliament to talk about the Keystone XL pipeline
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He's the Member of Parliament for Calgary Centre.
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He's also the Shadow Minister for Natural Resources.
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He's the Member of Parliament for Battle River Crowfoot.
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That's where the starting point in Hardesty, Alberta, the Keystone XL pipeline is.
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We're going to talk to him about local reaction and also on the Indigenous side of things,
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the contribution agreements that were in place to allow those communities to succeed, to prosper.
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He's the Member of Parliament for Disnethy, Mrs. Nippy, Churchill River, and also the Shadow
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You're the Shadow Minister for Natural Resources.
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This is something that is compounding the problem here in Canada, the fact that we are
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The cancellation of this project, Jamie, represents failure amongst so many files.
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You think about the environmental failure that's going to happen here because we're not
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getting a better, more environmentally produced oil to market.
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And the U.S. Gulf Coast has the perfect setup for more fire energies for us to get a heavy
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oil that's mined up in northern Alberta right to market.
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A lot of Canadians don't know this, but we receive a strong discount on our oil as a result
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of the fact that we have to ship it by rail and other means.
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So we get about a $15 discount to West Texas Intermediate for our oil.
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That translates for the amount of oil we ship to about a $16 billion per year differential
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That money goes elsewhere, primarily to the United States.
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So recognize how we're actually losing value in that process.
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But the cancellation of this project impacts that balance of payments transfer significantly.
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It also affects the environment because now those refineries have to refine oil
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from less environmentally friendly jurisdictions.
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It also hurts us economically and, of course, socially, as Gary's going to tell about how
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far we've come in dealing with the social aspects of oil and gas in Canada.
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We've had 10 months of sustained unemployment due to the COVID-19 pandemic.
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We've had billions of dollars lost in wages across this country.
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And one of the things I think we need to fuel the economic recovery is energy.
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So what are you hearing on the ground in Hardesty and around your riding?
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You know, our entire country has been hit hard.
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Not only has it been COVID, but it's been about half a decade of pain within the energy
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And I'll tell you, the approval of and the start of construction on Keystone XL brought
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a glimmer of hope to a region that has been hammered time and time again throughout the
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And last night in the emergency debate we had, I outlined a few of them from those who
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are directly affected, like welders, pipe fitters, heavy equipment operators, but also
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seniors who were boarding these employees who could now afford to not have to choose between
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groceries and paying their bills at the end of the month.
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That single mom who was able to send her kids to piano lessons again.
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Those sorts of things are the untold impacts of this.
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You know, from Hardesty and the entire Alberta side of this pipeline route, there's about 200
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kilometers of pipe that's mostly in the ground.
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And now there's a lot of uncertainty about what that looks like.
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Jamie, this is the sort of thing that as a member of parliament, you never want to have
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to stand up and talk about about a thousand people losing their jobs.
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And I think it speaks to the utter failure of this government to stand up for not just
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Albertans and not just for folks in my region, but for the entire country.
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The economic consequences of this truly shake across this country.
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And it's a national shame that the Trudeau liberals don't recognize that.
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Now, Gary, you've been very active on social media, promoting the fact that a number of
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indigenous communities are going to lose out on contribution agreements that would have
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allowed them to continue their path to prosperity.
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You know, Jamie, I very much appreciated last night in the emergency debate and some of the
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stuff going on yesterday, how our team brought that to the forefront.
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When I first started advocating on social media, I did that because I think that was a voice
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that wasn't being brought to the table on the lost opportunity for the indigenous communities
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There's particularly five First Nations communities that have formed what's called the National
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And I had the privilege this summer of actually going and meeting with Chief Alvin Francis from
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And they were going to be making about a billion dollar equity investment in this project.
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And when you listen to Chief Francis as an example of many, he talks about the high employment
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in his community and he talks about the 30 year opportunity that this was going to create
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for his community to solve things like, I mean, the people were already envisioning soccer
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fields and rinks and improved education and housing and other recreational and social services
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that would be prevalent in his community if this went ahead.
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And now, I mean, to his credit, he's a glass half full kind of guy rather than a glass half
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empty, and he's still very optimistic about leading his community in new ways.
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But, you know, the loss to these communities is tremendous.
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One other First Nations leader talks about being a kick in the teeth.
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Dale Swampy, the president of the National Coalition of Chiefs, talks about the opportunity
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lost and the social impact of that lost opportunity on First Nations and Maiti communities.
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Ron Quittell, who's a president of a Maiti group from Fort Mackay, he talks about the same
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thing that people don't believe that First Nations or Indigenous groups want to be participating
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And his concern is that all we hear is kind of the extreme left and the extreme right,
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And a number of these are Indigenous leaders that are taking that opportunity to improve the
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Now, gentlemen, this is the first time we've done this kind of panel discussion.
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We have an MP from Saskatchewan, two from Alberta.
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Let's talk about the overall price of energy, because I've been reading articles, the fact
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that this is yet another cancellation of a project that would have had benefits right
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across the country and into the United States for a certain amount.
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But at the end of the day, the demand for energy is not going down in the foreseeable future.
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Yes, I'm sure we'd all like to see eventually we phase out of it.
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But at this point, it doesn't look like the demand for energy is going away.
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So if we're not able to increase the supply, the bad actors will fill that gap.
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And we're seeing here evidence of hypocrisy on the highest level.
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We are seeing that while the liberal, environmental, hypocritical argument is campaigning to shut
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down Alberta energy, devastating our economy locally, seeing people suffer, impacting First
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Nations, it's hypocritical in the highest level because those energy demands, that global
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growth, which is projected to continue for decades to come, that growth in oil demand is going
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to be filled by dictators and despots and from jurisdictions that don't have the same
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standards, don't have the same environmental, ethical or human rights understanding that
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And yet Canada leads the world in this industry, and yet we're the ones paying the price for
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Last year, the Russians started a $260 billion oil development in their north.
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So they're actually pricing in a higher price for energy as they continue to develop their
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We have to realize where our energy comes from in North America.
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What we have to do to address that, of course, is decarbonize our economy and make sure that
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we are producing an environmentally friendly power solution.
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We're going to have power requirements increasing for decades.
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So in as much as people think about getting rid of hydrocarbons, they have to think about
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And when they talk about replacing that with electricity, right now, clean energy in Canada,
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which includes hydroelectric power, accounts for 17% of the power produced in Canada.
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So if you're talking about a set of dams and windmills and solar panels, that it's going
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to be six times the clean energy footprint we have in Canada right now.
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And every one of these, you think about how long it takes to actually build a dam, it
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We've got three recent examples of that where we're actually cost benefit, if you actually
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look at it from the beginning, doesn't serve its purpose.
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They're going to cancel potentially here site C based in British Columbia, based on the economics
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alone, because it no longer makes sense based on the extra costs and the instability of
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the dam itself that they've exposed in the actual development here, where we're going
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But at the same time, I want to make sure that people know, it's our job to address the
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pollution effects that come from all our power.
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That includes the pollution from hydro, that includes the pollution from nuclear, that includes
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We need to make sure that we pull that carbon out.
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And I think you saw my bill just before Christmas, Jamie, where we talk about carbon capture,
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That is about pulling carbon out of the equation and actually giving people a tax credit for
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So we're enabling people to produce cleaner energy.
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And as someone from Ontario who had to go through the Ontario Liberals green energy plan that saw
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billions poured into solar and wind turbines only to produce less than 5% of the province's
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entire needs is quite frustrating because we saw the level of energy poverty that increased
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But Gary, maybe you could share some of the frustration, the fact, and I'll also get Damien
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We mentioned it a bit off air, was the level of frustration based on the fact that these projects,
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Keystone and Energy East and others, are not being cancelled because of market decisions.
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And I think that's very specific to what we have to clear up with some of those not paying
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attention to this is that, you know, you see the rhetoric from the left, but they always
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talk about it, but they forget the fact that it's not the market making the decisions to
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The investors are more than prepared to go into this.
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It is the fact that politicians are the ones putting barriers in place to allow business
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to succeed and communities such as Indigenous communities to prosper.
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I would probably actually respond with a couple of quotes from the gentleman I talked about
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He says, you know what, the world is still using a lot of oil and gas every day, so it may
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as well come from a country that produces in the most ethical, environmentally sound as possible.
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It's not like the oil and gas won't be used if a pipeline isn't built.
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It will be consumed, but will be supplied from places that don't honour Mother Earth as much
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And my point there is that the political aspect of this is the pressure from the radical left
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And Ron Quintel says, and again, this is the president of the Fort Mackay-Madee community,
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he says, we're able to look at investing in alternative energy sources through the revenues
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We're looking at multiple mega solar projects, and we'll only be able to afford that by using
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So I applaud the president-elect, he said at the time, being serious about climate strategy,
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but the reality is the oil will get there one way or the other, and a pipeline is scientifically
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So, you know, looking through the eyes of these Indigenous leaders, they get that this
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is about the political activists and not about the reality.
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Well, we saw the same thing in Wet'suwet'en not too long ago, the voices of those elected
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band chiefs and councillors were completely put to the side, while the media and the left
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only focused on a handful of others, which actually severely hampered the ability for
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those communities, which were isolated in a number of ways to get on the scale to, or
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Did either of you, Damien or Greg, want to comment on the fact that it's not the market
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And one thing I'd like to add to Gary's point is that Keystone XL was a pipeline that had
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So the company was spending $1.8 billion on alternative energy all along the route to
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You think about that, that's a transportation mechanism with no environmental footprint whatsoever
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That's exactly what we're supposed to be aiming for.
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I said this earlier, but recognize that the oil actually getting to market there represents
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about a 20% discount in CO2 emissions versus the other oil that's going to find its way
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We've lost on clean energy and we've lost on the economy.
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We need to actually do better in our relationships with the United States.
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It's incredibly frustrating that you have the prime minister capitulate after, you know,
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he had months to be working with the incoming Biden administration.
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But instead, ironically, a prime minister that cares nothing about his own election promises
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simply comes out and says, well, it's time to give up because that was an election promise
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And certainly in Alberta and across Canada, you see that the science and the facts are clear
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that this is the right project, that this is the right sort of thing that our nation
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needs and it speaks clearly, I think, that Justin Trudeau and his government and a number
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of the activists within his government that at different times throughout their political
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careers and prior to, like the heritage minister, have celebrated the fact that Alberta energy
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And then now they can conveniently say, and even last night, you know, there was a number
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of times where liberal MPs would say somewhat along the lines of the right thing.
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Well, saying the right things, but not backing it up with action is, like I said before, a
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And it speaks to the hypocrisy that exists within the Liberal Party and some of the activism
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that is bent on shutting down Canadian energy, yet ignoring the benefits that this industry
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Look, the world needs more Canada and that includes more Canadian energy.
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And it's unfortunate that, you know, we're now discussing this from the perspective of
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a project that's been shut down and the devastating impacts and long-term implications that this
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I think another kick we have, too, is the Buy American Plan that President Biden has signed
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in, basically increasing the level of content of American-produced goods into government
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What else does this mean to our industries or manufacturing?
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I think it's something we have to look at very carefully here.
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And number one, it's a treasured relationship we have with the United States.
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Mulroney-Reagan put that together because we were working together at that point in time.
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Everybody recognized, once that was over the goal line, that this is a mutually dependent,
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mutually advantageous arrangement, a free trade agreement between two of the world's leading
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But you watch it get chipped away by each administration that, of course, is always playing
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Now, we don't have that advantage in Canada because we do need this relationship.
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So much of our trade is dependent upon the U.S.
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So much of our energy trade, particularly, is dependent on the United States.
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And now we're in a monopsony situation where we have literally one buyer of our resource.
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One of the biggest mistakes this current government made was cancelling Northern Gateway, which
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actually would have diversified our oil markets to offshore markets.
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Now we're stuck back in that position where we only have one buyer.
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This is going to continue to be a problem with this new government.
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So the government, our government needs to get ahead of this and actually start solidifying
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its relationships, not just with the U.S. administration, but with that interconnectedness
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that happens across the border with provinces and states, ambassadors everywhere through the
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chain to make sure that our products fit in somewhere in that Buy America policy.
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And I'm sure many of you have heard it already, but it's not all American politicians are
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There are some that are very welcoming to that project because they know of the long-term
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And as I said earlier, Jamie, this morning I was on a podcast with the congressman in Utah,
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Congressman John Curtis, and he went through that very much for the ears in the United States
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What are the consequences of canceling a pipeline of this nature?
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And the assessment, of course, is no, it actually did negative things for the environment.
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Did it do anything for the economy in the United States or Canada?
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So what is the net impact at the end of the day here?
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And how do we actually do better going forward?
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But it's important we know this on both sides of the border.
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There was an emergency debate last night on the Keystone XL pipeline.
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Maybe we can start with Damien because, like I mentioned earlier, the pipeline originates
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Then we'll go to Gary and Mr. McLean for the closing arguments and comments.
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So, Damien, what was your takeaway from that debate?
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No, I was incredibly proud of our entire Conservative team last night.
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We all banded together around a national cause that, yes, this has a significant impact on
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the region that I have the honour of representing.
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But across the country, we saw Conservatives stand up for Canada, stand up for what's right,
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And to make that case very articulately, to call out the failures of the Trudeau Liberals
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and to call out other parties on the left that have gone as far as to celebrating the
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You know, I could not be more proud to be a Conservative in the fact that Conservatives
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are the right voice to represent what's best for the region that I represent, for Alberta
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and for our country and working together to defeat the leftist activist causes that are
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causing, you know, unbelievable pain and hardship across our country.
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And last night, that debate was a part of that.
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And I know that that's the culmination of months of work behind the scenes, making sure that
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Conservatives are doing our part, not just for the politics of it, but because it's
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You know what, I would probably say this, Jamie.
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One of the things we've heard from this government over and over again, that the relationship with
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Indigenous people is the most important relationship to them.
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And so, you know, I challenged the minister in question period yesterday that what have
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you done to advocate for Keystone XL within government so that this opportunity that is
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being lost by Indigenous communities could be furthered?
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And, you know, for the last couple of years, I've talked lots.
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I'm trying to bring that Indigenous voice because I represent a riding that has 70% Indigenous
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We have probably some of the best examples in my riding of some of the great investments
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that organizations have made, like the Metal Lake Tribal Council into biomass energy, into
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And what they do is they take those dividends from the investments they make and they bring
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them back to their nine First Nations and they invest in schools and housing and recreation
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And so, you know, the frustrating part of all this is that we talk about this being a very
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important relationship and I should be careful.
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The government talks about this being a very important relationship to them, but we're the
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ones on the ground talking to these people and we're the ones hearing the story and they're
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And I just don't believe they actually represent the Indigenous groups like they purport to.
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And, you know, my job is to hold them to account on that and I'll continue to do that.
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Let me summarize the debate last night and in a short sentence here.
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You've got the NDP who clearly want everybody moved out of their production jobs and moved
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They made that very clear in the debate last night.
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You've got the bloc who doesn't care about the resource industry in Canada, outside of Quebec,
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and as far as they're concerned, it can fail and nobody would suffer a bit when they're
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And then you've got, of course, the Green Party who's shouting, Yahoo, a thousand energy
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And then you've got the Liberals who are saying to us, who are trying to support all these
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The Liberals are going, yes, it's very important.
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And that's the message that came across clearly in the House of Commons last night.
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If this is important to you, government, start doing better.
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And start doing better for what is, as Gary said, our most important file, which is the
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advancement of Aboriginal people in this country.
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Start getting this better, showing some results, and they're not.
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I understand some of you have questions and question period in about 20 minutes or so
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We look forward to hearing from you on this topic and many others.
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We do appreciate the contribution today because it was something different, a bit of a round
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And for those watching and listening at home, you heard and saw the passion in the voices
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of these members of Parliament and the conviction they have for their constituents and the groups
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So again, we had Damien Keurig, the Member of Parliament for Battle River Crowfoot.
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We had Gary Vidal, the Member of Parliament for Disnethe, Mrs. Nippy, Churchill River,
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and he's also the Shadow Minister for Indigenous Services.
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And Greg McLean, the Shadow Minister for Natural Resources, also the Member of Parliament for Calgary
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