The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - Parliamentary report on spending

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome once again to The Blueprints. This is Canada's Conservative Podcast. I'm your

00:00:15.760 host, Jamie Schmael, Member of Parliament for Halliburton Corps with Alex Brock with new content

00:00:19.740 for you every single Tuesday, 1.30 p.m. Eastern Time. A great show lined up for you. It's something

00:00:25.020 you're probably not hearing about in the mainstream media, so we ask that you like,

00:00:28.520 comment, subscribe, share this program. Together we can push back against the ever-moving liberal

00:00:33.020 agenda and of course if you can't watch the entire episode right now and you want to listen to it

00:00:36.660 later on, download it. On platforms like CastBox, iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, you name it, it is

00:00:42.320 out there. That's what we do. So as I mentioned, a great show lined up for you today. We're going to

00:00:46.900 talk about some Indigenous issues and of course the Parliamentary Budget Officer came out recently

00:00:50.980 with a pretty scathing report saying that the government is spending more than ever but

00:00:55.140 their results just aren't keeping track with that spending. So to talk about that, we have

00:00:59.880 Gary Vidal. He's the Member of Parliament for Disnethe, Mrs. Nippy, Churchill River and beautiful

00:01:05.240 province of Saskatchewan. Did I get that right? Pretty close, Jamie. Pretty close. Okay. He's also the

00:01:09.560 critic for Crowded Indigenous Relations and right beside him is Martin Shields from Bow River in Alberta,

00:01:15.800 beautiful part of the country. He is the Deputy Critic for Indigenous Services. Welcome, gentlemen.

00:01:21.180 Thank you. Thanks, Jamie. All right. Gary, you're the accountant and I promise we'll keep it light.

00:01:26.720 He is an accountant, folks. Do forgive him. Now, the Parliamentary Budget Officer does talk about

00:01:32.080 the government and of course they separated the Indigenous departments from Northern Affairs

00:01:37.620 into two separate ones, Crown Indigenous Relations and Indigenous Services. But the Parliamentary Budget

00:01:42.580 Officer took a peek at the books and came back with some pretty interesting results.

00:01:47.300 Yeah, they did. Jamie, we requested this report in a motion at the INAN Committee because it seemed over

00:01:54.820 the last two and a half years, every time we asked one of the ministers a question about a challenge on

00:01:59.280 Indigenous issues, the answer we always got, well, look how much money we spent. And so we always came back 1.00

00:02:03.960 with, okay, but what outcomes did we improve by spending this money? And so we asked the Parliamentary Budget

00:02:09.560 Officer to do this study and do this report and they very willingly did that for us. And then came back with the

00:02:15.180 conclusion that we kind of suspected that with very significant increases in spending, we were not

00:02:23.120 getting the commensurate increases in outcomes or in what they call department results indicators

00:02:27.960 or performance indicators. So I believe it was a pretty scathing report that we spend more and we get

00:02:34.660 less. And that's not what we want to do for Indigenous people in our country. We want to improve the outcomes.

00:02:39.880 So Martin, have you seen an increased movement of the goalposts, so to speak? The departments start to

00:02:46.500 fail on an issue or the ministers start to fail on an issue and they just push out the deadline. Say,

00:02:50.980 we'll complete it a few more years down the road and we'll get to it eventually.

00:02:54.040 And the other part of that is in this report, you will find that they make the statement that they

00:02:59.560 made their budget. But what people don't understand is they've almost thrown in $4 billion more.

00:03:05.540 So the government officials say, well, within budget, not people not realizing they've increased

00:03:12.120 the amount by almost $4 billion. But again, it comes back to Gary's point is they keep pushing

00:03:19.760 the goalposts out. They keep throwing more money in it. And what we're finding is, as we met with many

00:03:24.820 witnesses in our studies, things haven't improved in many areas. So it's great for a minister to say,

00:03:32.160 hey, we're within budget, but they threw in almost $4 billion more. And the parliamentary budget officer,

00:03:39.000 although he says they have stayed within budget in his report and they can use that, but he also

00:03:45.160 talks about the failures, the number of failures in categories for both departments. And what's

00:03:50.860 interesting is it didn't matter pre-18 when they were one department to two, where you might get the

00:03:59.240 excuse, well, we're having two departments. So we have to spend a lot more money and resources to

00:04:03.900 staff two departments versus one. He said, they weren't any better before 2018 when they had one

00:04:09.200 department. So like you say, they use different phrases to cover up what is you're saying, moving

00:04:15.620 the goalposts, not getting the results they should be.

00:04:19.080 So basically what it's doing is keeping the Ottawa's knows best approach when it comes to Indigenous 0.90

00:04:23.360 communities. Very much so. If you look at, if you look at some of the specific details in the charts

00:04:29.140 and the graphs. Okay, you can get into it. I know that makes you really happy. You can. No, no. If you get into

00:04:34.320 some of the specific details, like Martin alluded to, there's very significant increase in spending.

00:04:38.940 There's also a significant increase in what they call FTEs or full-time equivalent employment in the

00:04:45.120 departments, right? And I mean, for example, in ISC from 2018 to 2020, that number went up 51 percent.

00:04:52.520 2,100 people. So that's more department officials, more bureaucrats within the department.

00:04:57.940 Exactly. Now, to be fair, the number of employees or FTEs at Crown Indigenous Relations went down

00:05:04.320 part of that. So some of that shifting between the departments in the post-2018 world. But if you

00:05:11.140 actually drill into the numbers, there's still over 800 more employees. And if you drill further into that,

00:05:16.520 I think you will find in the departmental reports and the results and those details that a significant

00:05:21.740 amount of those people are actually on what they call internal services. And so if you dig into the

00:05:27.180 details in one of the charts where they have their nice graphs, the one item that is the greatest

00:05:32.720 percentage or number above what they planned was on internal resources within ISC. And so you're right,

00:05:41.940 Ottawa knows best. We build the bureaucracy in Ottawa. That doesn't necessarily translate into

00:05:47.580 improving the outcomes or the services to people on the ground out in the communities.

00:05:52.020 So if we're not getting better results on the ground, isn't it time for a different approach,

00:05:56.740 a different view on things?

00:05:58.480 I would suggest so, because as Gary said, the money has gone into more staffing HR here in the

00:06:05.520 bureaucracy. And as we hear from many different witnesses, what they're looking for is the opportunity

00:06:11.640 to use that money at the grassroots level where they know what they need to do. And I think that's

00:06:17.500 the missing piece when you're talking about changing direction. Spending a lot of money here in Ottawa,

00:06:23.100 hiring more people, as you say, and that, and you know, they talk about the HR in those reports and

00:06:28.020 saying the outcomes haven't changed. So if the outcomes haven't changed, you've gone from one to two,

00:06:35.040 outcomes haven't changed, then you're not monitoring the right thing, monitoring how many more people

00:06:41.040 you've got and monitoring how much money you spent has nothing to do with the results at the end. And

00:06:45.620 if you don't evaluate the results, then what's the point of what they're doing?

00:06:51.260 That's a very good question. So what ideas do you have, Gary?

00:06:53.880 Well, I just want to jump in on that quickly first, Jamie. The other thing, when you look at the details

00:06:59.360 in the charts, one of the other items that I think jumps out is that even though the FTEs on

00:07:06.120 internal services was higher than what was planned, greater than what was planned,

00:07:11.880 the one line item that was significantly lower than what was planned was on a category called

00:07:16.740 self-determination. And so what we've heard from this minister over the years, and I'm talking

00:07:21.700 specifically Minister Miller because he was Indigenous Services and now Crown Indigenous

00:07:24.800 Relations, is that their ultimate goal is to not exist at the end of time, right? This is supposed to be a

00:07:30.560 journey to self-determination where the department doesn't exist. Well, if you actually measure that

00:07:36.240 against what we're talking about where internal resources are going up, but the actual under-commitment

00:07:42.400 relative to planning on self-determination, it doesn't paint the picture of putting the control

00:07:48.780 into the hands of the people at the ground level like Martin was talking about. I think that's an

00:07:52.940 additional thought on that that's significant and relevant.

00:07:56.540 Didn't Ronald Reagan say the closest thing to life on earth was a government program?

00:08:02.180 I think it was something like that. I probably misquoted him, but...

00:08:04.900 But you're absolutely right in the sense of programs because the funding is often program funding,

00:08:10.680 program funding, which means that bureaucrats have to design the program, they'll send it out, 0.99

00:08:16.640 and people try to figure out how to apply for it, then they apply for it, bureaucrats have got to

00:08:20.880 approve it, and then they got to send the money out, and by then it's years over and the program's

00:08:25.740 start, and the next cycle starts over again.

00:08:27.460 Summer winners, summer losers, and...

00:08:29.500 Yeah, and it's a cyclical process with just program funding because it's very cyclical in

00:08:34.600 the sense of designing a program, applying for it, getting the money, and you've got to start

00:08:40.160 over again before it's done anything. And so, as you would say, to eliminate if the goal is to

00:08:46.420 remove this and move it to the grassroots level, they need to make the decisions about how that money

00:08:52.340 goes rather than applying or trying to figure out which program they've designed, and how do I apply

00:08:58.160 to get it, and how do I use the money, and then it gets that problem. So, devolving it down to the

00:09:04.700 grassroots to making that decision, getting away from bureaucratic program funding.

00:09:10.980 Yes.

00:09:11.860 Can I jump again?

00:09:12.780 Absolutely.

00:09:13.480 Just to build on what Martin said, the other thing that emphasizes that point is what we saw

00:09:18.800 in the most recent budget, right, where we have some opportunities to actually advance self-determination

00:09:25.400 and advance independence, economic reconciliation through many of the organizations that we've met

00:09:31.680 with that have put some very good ideas forward. You know, the FMB and the Roadmap Project and

00:09:36.380 the FNFA and some of the work they're doing, and these are all non-partisan organizations that

00:09:44.120 were chartered under the First Nations Fiscal Management Act back in, what, 2006, I think,

00:09:48.860 in a non-partisan support at that time, and they've offered some really relevant solutions

00:09:53.940 that would lead to independence, that would lead to self-determination, and not one of those

00:09:59.280 things showed up in the last budget, and I think that's a telltale sign as well.

00:10:03.760 So, what does that look like? Where do you think that looks like? Where does the conversation

00:10:06.900 go? The independence, the self-governing?

00:10:09.280 You mentioned it, and it's critical. It's the economic reconciliation. We have sharp

00:10:15.860 indigenous people. They're business people. They know how to get things done, but they're 0.89

00:10:20.260 very frustrated with what they have to deal with, and the paperwork, the red tape. If we

00:10:26.480 can empower them with economic reconciliation, this not only works for them, but it works for

00:10:32.100 our economy in general, because they can be a powerhouse in our economy, but we hold them

00:10:38.540 back with the way it's funded, and the way we distribute the money paternalistically.

00:10:45.220 If we empower them in economic reconciliation, that is the answer, in my opinion.

00:10:51.900 So, basically backing Ottawa off and starting to have more direct funding.

00:10:56.900 Probably not as cyclical as the programs.

00:10:59.760 There is many, many indigenous leaders out there that get this concept very well, and

00:11:07.300 they want to be part of that solution. They want to be part of economic reconciliation.

00:11:11.500 They want to be given the opportunity to participate in a prosperous economy. We heard a story this

00:11:17.180 morning at the National Prayer Breakfast about a gentleman that went in and worked in his

00:11:21.780 First Nation and turned it into a very successful First Nation based on capitalizing on the opportunity

00:11:28.600 that was there for them. That story can be replicated across the country in so many places.

00:11:34.060 We just have to actually provide them the opportunity and not hold them back to advance on those

00:11:41.060 initiatives that they know very well, the initiatives they need to advance on to be successful.

00:11:46.440 And relatively speaking, a lot of communities, whether it be First Nations, Métis, Inuit, a lot

00:11:52.580 of their population is young with people that want to enter the workforce, and that's a key part

00:11:56.540 when we talk about labor shortages all over the country, no matter where you're from.

00:12:01.300 That's a group that has kind of been left out of the conversation, in my opinion.

00:12:07.200 Their age, as you would know in the sense in the studies, the average age of indigenous is

00:12:11.980 significantly lower in the population.

00:12:14.680 The other part that people don't understand, they have an entrepreneurial history in the sense

00:12:20.160 of developing, trading, their societies were based on the cultures of making things and

00:12:26.680 trading. They understand that concept, but we have kept them from doing it. We need to

00:12:32.380 release that power back because innately they want to do this. This is something that makes

00:12:37.260 sense to them. But if we keep them in this paternalistic mechanism of funding, it deteriorates

00:12:44.120 into how many people do we have indigenous in our prison system. That's wrong. We need 1.00

00:12:49.160 to unleash the economic spirit they have. They understand it. They just need the opportunities.

00:12:54.700 And when you say we, it's been 150 years of successive governments that have created this

00:12:59.120 model and just kept the same thing going with little tweaks here and there.

00:13:03.560 Right. Exactly right. Thank you for saying that.

00:13:06.620 I think a part of that journey as well, and I'll share a story from my own writing in northern

00:13:11.280 Saskatchewan is the, you know, the economic reconciliation comes with the opportunity to

00:13:17.600 make equity investments in good projects. Whether it's natural resources, I mean, oil

00:13:22.680 and gas, mining, forestry, agriculture, there's so many opportunities that we're seeing for

00:13:27.940 First Nations people or other indigenous people across the country. In my own writing, I spent 1.00

00:13:32.540 almost two years trying to find a mechanism for a local initiative to invest in a forest industry

00:13:39.440 project. And that forest industry project is going to be very successful. And the partners

00:13:45.140 on the project very much wanted to ensure that there was a more than 50% indigenous ownership.

00:13:51.860 And so they were working towards that. But we went through every hoop and jumped through every,

00:13:57.760 you know, challenge that the government put before us to try to find that equity investment

00:14:02.180 and the opportunity, which would have got paid back so quickly. And in the end, it never happened. Now,

00:14:09.640 it is going to happen, but it's going to happen through a provincial government instead of through

00:14:12.200 the federal government. So fortunately, the project is going to go ahead. Right. But the success of that

00:14:16.480 was going to be years and years and years of future dividends to invest back into the social issues

00:14:21.400 in their communities. Right. I think there was it was like 750 jobs and 12 First Nations included in

00:14:26.700 this project and millions of dollars of dividends over the years that we're going to be invested

00:14:32.960 back into these communities. Right. Well, I think that's an ongoing problem with most government

00:14:37.180 programs. And Martin alluded to it as well as you just did. It's it's, you know, getting that

00:14:42.200 square peg into the round hole, trying to figure out, OK, how do I tweak my idea, which I think is

00:14:48.320 amazing, into what the bureaucrats and the government and the politicians think is a good idea? And can I

00:14:53.260 make it work? And if you can't, then you're at a bit of a disadvantage almost. And it's interesting

00:14:58.600 because we met last week with a very successful indigenous on a nation in his business. And he

00:15:07.460 talked about his business. It's a he's got a store, but he has a huge embroidering business in the store.

00:15:12.680 I mean, the many machines that they produce stuff for lots of people. He also has a couple of white

00:15:19.240 bison there, which is attraction. But we asked him about his social media platforms. And he says,

00:15:25.960 I don't use them. He says, I use the moccasin telegraph. He says, people beat the path to my

00:15:33.020 doorway. I don't need social media. And it was really interesting how successful he's been using

00:15:40.680 the traditional methods of communication. And people find him. They find the store on this

00:15:46.820 indigenous nation in my writing. And he is very successful. And he understands entrepreneurial.

00:15:53.280 But it's interesting that he doesn't use social media. He uses indigenous communication of what

00:15:58.760 moccasin telegraph. And that's how he described it. And he says, people are beating the pathways to

00:16:04.140 his door. Well, I always give the guests the last word. We are pretty much out of time. So if Gary,

00:16:10.660 you want to kick it off, whatever you want, the floor is yours.

00:16:13.880 You know, I would probably just add a little pitch for some of the stuff we had in our platform in

00:16:19.440 the last election. A couple of examples of things. We had a significant component in there about

00:16:24.820 economic development on a regional basis and investing in capacity and regionalizing some of

00:16:30.660 the opportunity to promote economic development in communities, in regions. And then the second thing

00:16:37.320 that was very significant in my mind was the Canadian Indigenous Opportunities Corp that we

00:16:42.660 proposed, which was going to be a loan or a guaranteed loan kind of mechanism that would allow

00:16:51.800 these entrepreneurs to make equity investments in successful businesses. And I think that is a huge

00:16:57.400 part of what we have to do if we're going to be successful going forward and gain that

00:17:01.900 independence, the economic reconciliation, ultimately self-determination.

00:17:06.500 And it almost reduces the barriers between the Indigenous and non-Indigenous communities, right? We

00:17:11.840 meld some of that. Martin.

00:17:14.640 No, I thank you for the opportunity. Gary, you understand it well. A lot of the information, you can go

00:17:21.920 through the numbers, but it comes down to we have a strong population in our country that needs to be

00:17:28.780 the people making decisions about what works for them, not the bureaucracy, not the bureaucracy. We've got to

00:17:35.080 change that. I couldn't agree more. Well, thank you, gentlemen, for that conversation. There are many more questions, but

00:17:40.420 personally, we only have so much time. We'll leave the fax machines issues to another day. There we will. We'll talk about fax

00:17:45.760 machines. And that is something, believe it or not, is still being used to communicate with the government in some

00:17:51.560 Indigenous communities. And I kid you not, they have not got around to email yet. So thank you very much for your time. 1.30 p.m. Eastern

00:17:59.760 Please like, comment, subscribe, share this program. Before I go, want to thank and

00:18:05.100 Gary Vidal from the riding of...

00:18:07.100 Does nothing miss a nippy Churchill River? I think I was pretty close. You're pretty close. Yeah, you did.

00:18:11.680 Critic for Crown Indigenous Relations, Martin Shields from Bow River. He has a nice, easy one to pronounce. Also the

00:18:16.940 Deputy Critic for Indigenous Services. We appreciate your time. And remember, if you didn't catch it all,

00:18:22.660 download it, platforms.castbox, iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, you name it. It is out there. We will see you

00:18:27.620 next week. Remember, low taxes, less government, more freedom. That's the blueprint.

00:18:31.200 We'll see you next week.

The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - May 31, 2022

Parliamentary report on spending

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