The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast

00:00:00.000 hello and welcome once again to the blueprints this is canada's conservative podcast i'm your

00:00:20.440 host jamie schmiel member of parliament for halliburton court the lakes brock with new

00:00:23.860 content for you every single tuesday 1 30 p.m eastern time don't forget to like comment share

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00:00:33.880 on today's show we're going to be talking about indigenous procurements the problems with it

00:00:38.580 and a bunch of non-indigenous companies getting billions in government contracts so to talk

00:00:44.020 about this and much much more we bring on the person leading the charge garnett genuas the

00:00:48.880 member of parliament for sherwood park port saskatchewan thanks for coming on the show well

00:00:52.880 thank you very much for having me it's great to be back on the on the blueprint and uh jamie you've

00:00:58.000 been leading our team on indigenous issues for such a long time and you've done incredible work

00:01:02.000 there so uh it's it's great to be able to have this conversation with someone who obviously knows a

00:01:07.040 lot about the topic well i do appreciate the work you're doing as well bringing to light the fact

00:01:11.680 that there are shell companies set up that are bidding on government contracts worth millions tens

00:01:19.160 of millions and the list goes on but not actually indigenous owned which the program was set up to do

00:01:25.300 so you could at least get some indigenous companies getting some of the government contracts

00:01:29.800 because in some cases a lot of them especially if they're small don't have the capacity to to go

00:01:34.460 through that application process which can be quite onerous even for the biggest of companies

00:01:38.300 yeah so uh let me say just a few things about kind of how i got to to learning about this and then

00:01:45.360 kind of what you're doing drilling into it um most people will be by now familiar with the big

00:01:50.640 arrive scam scandal and uh you know tens of millions spent on a glitchy app that didn't work

00:01:56.740 sent lots of people into quarantine even though they they filled out all the rules that they were

00:02:00.360 they were supposed to fill out uh because of error error and aversion and and you had uh this this

00:02:06.680 kind of opened my eyes to the fact that you've got a bunch of these very small companies they're not

00:02:12.560 actually doing the work they're kind of specialized in getting government contracts and then

00:02:16.940 subcontracting them and then they get a a massive benefit in the process you know well-connected

00:02:21.340 insiders close to the ndp liberal government uh their business is getting contracts and subcontracting

00:02:27.480 right i've used this analogy before you're hiring someone to paint your fence you hire me for 100

00:02:32.940 bucks i hire someone else for 50 bucks and i don't do any of the work and i just pass along the contract

00:02:37.140 and um if that happens to you once or twice you're you're gonna want to go direct at some point

00:02:41.500 uh but the the government of canada has this this privileged special relationship with a few of

00:02:46.460 these these insider companies uh and uh and that's costing taxpayers a lot so this was was the arrive

00:02:53.660 scam scandal but but but um in in the context of that we saw that there's this company uh uh called

00:03:01.440 dalliant uh that got got part of this contract and uh that company was identified as an indigenous

00:03:06.860 company which helped them access a set aside the government's got to set aside five percent of

00:03:10.600 contracts are are supposed to go to indigenous companies uh but they're in they're a very a very

00:03:15.700 tiny company two people they're in joint venture with someone else and that joint venture allows

00:03:20.580 them to get the get the contract so we started digging into kind of okay who's actually getting

00:03:26.120 these these indigenous set aside um and there's a few different instances of possible abuse right one is

00:03:33.000 a company pretending to be indigenous that's that's that's not somebody who's just just lying just just

00:03:38.540 outright faking it another possibility is you have uh a tiny company that's qualified as indigenous

00:03:45.680 but they're subcontracting all the work to non-indigenous companies so it's that flow through

00:03:50.340 that i described the indigenous company is is part of that flow through but it's you know one or two

00:03:56.260 people that are getting the benefit and they're subcontracting all of the work to non non-indigenous

00:04:00.280 firms and then another another possibility is an abuse of a joint venture uh joint ventures uh are are

00:04:05.940 a legitimate business tool uh but uh if if an indigenous partner is helping get that contract

00:04:12.540 that indigenous partner should be benefiting from from the contract they shouldn't just be

00:04:16.000 be paid a fee to help check a box they should actually be be be part of the process so uh these

00:04:21.240 are various kinds of views and so the first step we took at committee was to request information on

00:04:25.980 this we did a we did a detailed document production order uh and in particular we said we want to see the

00:04:31.160 subcontract so in the case of of indigenous companies that get contracts we want to see who their

00:04:35.620 subcontracting to and actually found that there was a a complete lack of information being collected

00:04:40.860 in terms of the subcontracts uh we don't know if or who is enforcing uh this uh the subcontracting

00:04:47.780 rules there's a rule that it's supposed to be that if you have uh if it's happening under the

00:04:52.060 indigenous set aside that one-third of the subcontracts have to have to be um have to be

00:04:57.740 indigenous but but there's no indication of if that's being tracked or enforced so that's the that's

00:05:02.660 the story that kind of brings us to this point uh the the government operations committee started

00:05:08.420 studying this issue and we heard testimony directly from the afn uh saying that in their view most of

00:05:15.200 the companies getting these contracts are shell companies uh so there's there's some instance of

00:05:20.100 um of workarounds being used and the government's very set on trying to say they've checked a box

00:05:25.740 uh but the purpose of this program is supposed to be dispersed benefit within indigenous communities

00:05:32.980 economic development happening within yeah exactly reconciliation via the increase in economic

00:05:39.420 opportunity uh and and yet it's pretty clear from the testimony of the afn and other witnesses we've

00:05:44.980 heard as well as the lack of tracking uh that there uh there are big gaps in terms of what's actually

00:05:50.940 happening and uh and i think it's pretty performative of the government they're they're they're trying to

00:05:55.340 look like they care but they're not taking the time to measure the results well let's queue up cut one

00:06:00.320 we have a clip from committee talking about uh what you had just mentioned but going into a little bit

00:06:06.380 more specifics because um this is an issue i think is just the tip of the iceberg which you're able to

00:06:12.140 and what you have already exposed so let's play cut one this the acronym cpain which stands for

00:06:18.820 corporations posing as indigenous nations the people that we expose as fraudulent in taking up space

00:06:25.780 to which they are not entitled move freely across this continent we have discovered that there are

00:06:30.980 billions of dollars in resources that are pilfered by corporations entities and individuals who are

00:06:39.060 pretending to be indigenous when they are not hence the term pretending pretendians and pretendianism

00:06:45.140 this is a very serious issue we do not wish to suggest otherwise by using the word pretend

00:06:53.080 we use it for ease of conversation in those who must speak about this issue

00:06:59.240 yeah so when you look at it in in that context that all this money uh was kind of set aside for

00:07:08.100 indigenous owned companies but the government isn't really doing their due diligence to ensure that

00:07:12.460 their own targets are being met but we see this across the board on so many things just the respect

00:07:17.700 for taxpayer dollars to actually achieve the outcomes they're supposed to achieve are just falling through

00:07:22.680 the cracks everywhere yeah yeah i totally agree uh the approach of this government is to try to

00:07:29.180 look like they care it's uh you know virtue signaling performative allyship whatever whatever the

00:07:34.620 the the the term is that we're we're using and there isn't an interest in actually measuring and

00:07:41.960 assessing the results i think it's it's a particular conservative trait to say we we care about outcomes

00:07:47.040 what's what's the purpose of this policy supposed to be uh and uh economic supporting economic

00:07:52.960 development in indigenous communities obviously something that you've been been championing for years so

00:07:56.800 so important to us looking at the suite of policies that uh that support uh empowerment and control

00:08:04.420 through economic development it's it's uh it's so important and uh and here we see how a policy that

00:08:12.020 um that should be aiming at that uh is it is is opening itself up to so many workarounds and i

00:08:19.960 questioned patty heidu about this a few months back at committee she's the she's the liberal minister for

00:08:24.960 this and uh and she shrugged off the criticism she said well the purpose of the policy is is is just

00:08:32.800 to measure indigeneity uh and then we and then you get on the list and then and then you're you're good

00:08:38.680 to go but uh the program is not effectively measuring indigeneity and it's not um you know

00:08:45.700 these concerns about abuse they're coming from indigenous leaders themselves right so we're we're

00:08:50.060 magnifying their their concerns uh various indigenous organizations have asked the auditor

00:08:54.780 general to look into this we've passed a motion asking the procurement ombudsman to to look into

00:08:59.260 this as well and i think we'll continue to see uh things revealed about how uh the liberals they

00:09:03.900 they wanted to look like they were checking a box uh but they have not uh been paying attention

00:09:09.900 to the results and in fact uh it seems like they've been uh presiding over a system that allows

00:09:17.040 these well-connected insiders uh these these small insider companies that specialize in getting

00:09:22.160 in contracts to take advantage of the system uh to but then subcontracting it in ways that don't

00:09:28.140 provide actual benefit to indigenous communities which like if you look at the number of employees

00:09:33.680 hired during the liberal liberal's time in office when they created the indigenous services department

00:09:39.840 the the number of bureaucrats has jumped substantially but we've had a parliamentary budget report saying

00:09:45.400 that that extra money to that department and what they're spending on isn't exactly getting the

00:09:50.280 results that is intended to your point of outcomes right we've had uh auditor general's report on

00:09:55.180 housing on clean water on leasing and and all the the text is basically the same that the government

00:10:01.800 is failing on each and every one of them because to your comments exactly the outcomes are not the

00:10:08.240 main issue for the the the badge of honor for the government seems to be the amount spent not

00:10:13.160 actually helping people right yeah exactly it's uh it's it's based not on the result achieved but on

00:10:19.720 the amount spent and in this case we're talking about instances where where according to indigenous

00:10:24.720 leaders most of the money spent is going to the wrong people it's going to shell companies i just

00:10:30.100 finished uh traveling across the country uh and met with indigenous leaders and a number of stops at

00:10:36.180 thunder bay and winnipeg uh in uh in regina and uh and and one of the points that was raised uh was

00:10:43.160 ensuring that these these companies are are able to build up infrastructure in the communities and are

00:10:50.120 there for the long term right so you don't you don't have a couple ottawa insiders showing up saying

00:10:55.180 hey we can check this box we can we can help you satisfy your requirement uh we we need to be thinking

00:11:01.580 about policies that that contribute to long-term uh sustainable business development and prosperity

00:11:08.480 and uh so i i mean i i came into this issue through that kind of procurement uh lens being

00:11:15.620 on the government operations committee we do a ton of work on government scandals um and since then i've

00:11:20.280 i've done a ton of engagement with indigenous leaders and uh this issue is a major concern for them

00:11:26.280 and the issue around people pretending or trying to take advantage of uh benefits that are there for

00:11:33.420 indigenous people when they're when they're not indigenous uh it's it's a big issue and a and a broader issue

00:11:39.540 uh so i think it's something that um that reminds us of the importance of of looking at the results

00:11:47.840 measuring the outcomes uh and and not accepting uh an ndp liberal government that that is really much

00:11:54.200 more about box checking instead of results by the way jamie i just wanted to say on that on that clip

00:11:59.020 you showed notably uh partway through that meeting the liberals interrupted witness testimony by moving

00:12:05.180 a procedural motion that could have been dealt with at another time and we repeatedly tried to get the

00:12:11.080 committee to go back to hearing from the witnesses who were there uh in one case a witness who had driven

00:12:15.720 a very long distance to order to be at the committee uh so uh liberals and the ndp have shown

00:12:21.060 really profound disrespect in trying to shut down uh witnesses who have made a significant effort and

00:12:28.020 tell their stories about how their communities have been um taken advantage of in this process

00:12:32.960 uh and uh so so but the liberals and ndp are the two sides of the same coin basically right they they're

00:12:39.880 they're all about money spent totally right no the the liberals and the ndp had to have a majority

00:12:45.840 on that committee so uh they were the ones that were working together to force us to be on this

00:12:52.060 procedural issue instead of attending to the important uh opportunity to hear from the witnesses

00:12:57.020 who were in front of us the next day when we had government officials they let the government

00:13:00.020 officials testify we had questions for them of course but they let the government officials testify

00:13:03.520 uh but they disrupted testimony from indigenous leaders partway through so that was really

00:13:07.740 important really disappointing and uh and it underlines that um you know liberals are you know

00:13:14.380 they're they're always stretching their elbows patting themselves on the back on these issues

00:13:18.180 uh but uh but we need to actually listen to indigenous leaders themselves uh who are saying

00:13:24.840 uh the results are not lining up with the government's uh self-congratulatory messages so where do we go

00:13:29.980 from here i know you're you're on this the committee's on this you're you're fighting for answers what's

00:13:34.800 next yeah i mean the the the investigations the government operations committee are continuing uh

00:13:40.380 there are so many scandals right now uh that um you know there's different things happening at

00:13:47.300 different committees where uh um and we and we're looking at multiple different scandal issues of the

00:13:53.880 government operations committee um so it's it's sort of something that it's it's not kind of every

00:13:59.340 meeting we're kind of coming coming back to it um but there's a lot of interest in this study

00:14:04.000 uh there's been a lot of interest from the public in particular from indigenous leaders

00:14:08.200 uh we've heard from a lot of indigenous businesses that are are doing great work uh building their

00:14:13.820 businesses uh investing back in their communities uh who have come to us to share to share their

00:14:18.540 concerns one thing i'll say just as well and some of the feedback we're getting from these um

00:14:23.460 these great uh positive examples of indigenous businesses is that uh a lot of government procurement

00:14:30.040 is very opaque and inaccessible so if you're if you've started a business and you're offering

00:14:36.320 exactly the product the government uh wants but you haven't dealt with government before it can be

00:14:41.600 very very difficult uh in some cases there are requirements like you that you you had to have

00:14:47.080 had a certain number of of references within the federal government itself so you could be a

00:14:51.900 successful company that's actually done business with other provincial governments and other

00:14:55.360 governments around the world and then you come to the canadian government and and basically the answer

00:14:59.180 is well you haven't done business with us before so you're you're at a major disadvantage

00:15:03.560 um if we want to give opportunity to people that haven't had opportunity before

00:15:09.220 indigenous-owned businesses other minority-owned businesses that that uh may have historically been

00:15:15.780 at a disadvantage the the best way to to give them opportunity is to uh open up and democratize

00:15:23.280 is the procurement process in general uh to make it easier for anyone um who who has the right

00:15:31.600 product to be able to to put their their bid forward but various analyses of this including

00:15:37.560 from the procurement on bed have have shown how a protection for insiders makes it very hard for

00:15:45.460 those who are kind of the barriers to competition right exactly big government loves this right yeah

00:15:50.140 big government loves big business yeah it's easier to deal with right you don't have all these

00:15:54.280 little companies kind of doing their own thing right you have a few big ones that have the capacity

00:16:00.380 you apply through these complex application yeah process that ottawa has come up with where the the

00:16:07.720 little companies the startups or the medium size they have a bit harder time to do it yeah and and

00:16:13.440 you're right we have to make it easier not harder yeah so we're pretty much out of time um question

00:16:20.260 periods coming up but uh the guests always get the last words okay floor is yours well uh i um

00:16:26.960 as as as we've as we've kind of gone into this issue uh there's there's two things that really

00:16:32.900 stick out to me one is is just uh the the building record of scandal this ndp liberal government uh

00:16:40.060 and uh and and like there's so many different things we've got the the green slush fund issue

00:16:46.020 of the house of them not handing over the documents at the government operations committee it's the it's the

00:16:50.620 condo uh issue that overpriced condo they bought in new york and it's the indigenous procurement

00:16:54.940 issues it's arrive can and other other procurement issues uh so there's there's so many different

00:17:00.440 scandals we're dealing with uh it underlines just how much good we can do with a conservative

00:17:05.800 government that is going to be disciplined about connecting money spent with results and then the

00:17:12.820 other the other thing uh that i'm that i'm learning through this process and and really excited about

00:17:18.900 is just the uh the appetite the desire the opportunity for economic development uh in a

00:17:25.140 partnership with indigenous leaders and uh a lot of that's in the resource sector and and coming from

00:17:30.520 a conservative background where we're excited about the resource sector uh that's that's good news i mean

00:17:35.340 uh partnering with indigenous leaders on that is going to be very exciting uh and uh and but it's it's

00:17:42.500 across the spectrum in terms of of different kinds of businesses and and opportunities so um it's it

00:17:49.200 shouldn't be a government knows best approach it should be a uh a genuinely uh partnering uh and and

00:17:56.100 pro-resource approach as we uh as as the canadian government uh under conservative leadership works

00:18:02.260 constructively with uh with indigenous communities to unlock those economic opportunities so uh hopefully

00:18:08.360 very soon we'll be able to uh do away with this uh the scan liberal scandal mire uh and unleash the

00:18:15.880 economic potential of our country i couldn't agree with you more garnet genuine thank you very much for

00:18:19.840 coming on the show thanks for member of parliament for sherwood park so ford saskatchewan thank you for

00:18:24.180 your time guard i thank you for yours this is probably a message you're not hearing in the mainstream

00:18:28.180 media so let's get it out like comment subscribing share this program tell your friends they can also

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The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - October 22, 2024

Procurement disaster

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