The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - The Blueprint： Foreign Interference in Canada？

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome once again to The Blueprints. This is Canada's Conservative Podcast. I'm your

00:00:09.000 host, Jamie Schmael, Member of Parliament for Halliburton Corps with Alex Brock with new content

00:00:12.880 for you every single Tuesday, 1.30 p.m. Eastern Time. We ask that you like, comments, share,

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00:00:28.760 there. A great show for you lined up today. We're going to talk about the Communist Party of China's

00:00:33.340 growing influence and presence here in Canada. To talk about that, we're going to bring on a good

00:00:37.480 friend of the show, Michael Chong. He's the Member of Parliament for Wellington Halton Hills, also the

00:00:41.580 critic for Foreign Affairs. Thanks for joining us. Great to be here, Jamie. All right, there is a lot

00:00:45.540 to talk about. I know we've had you on the show before to talk about a whole bunch of things, but

00:00:49.000 we can go wherever you want. We can start with the training of Chinese troops on Canadian soil. We can

00:00:54.820 talk about the Winnipeg labs, we can talk about the police stations in Canada, or we can talk about

00:01:00.340 election financing. It's your call. Maybe you want to start from the beginning. Maybe we can rewind the

00:01:05.280 tape and just give people a little recap before we get going. Sure. For years, Canada's intelligence

00:01:10.900 community and the intelligence community of our closest allies have been warning the government of

00:01:17.200 Canada about Beijing's interference operations that are taking place here on Canadian soil.

00:01:23.060 Several years ago, for example, the head of CSIS said that Beijing is stealing our intellectual

00:01:32.160 property and threatening international security in five sensitive areas of research and development

00:01:37.760 on Canadian university campuses and Canadian companies. And just this past week, we heard about

00:01:44.640 the arrest of a Hydro-Quebec employee for stealing intellectual property and passing it on to Beijing.

00:01:50.960 So for years, we've been hearing about this. We've been hearing about, for example,

00:01:55.680 intimidation of Canadians here on Canadian soil that have been coerced under threats to their family

00:02:03.940 back in China to go back to China for further interrogation. We have heard about pro-Hong Kong democracy

00:02:11.900 activists, those who are standing up for the human rights of Tibetans and Uyghurs here in Canada

00:02:19.220 being threatened by people acting at the behest of Beijing. So these reports have been documented and

00:02:29.160 reported by Canada's intelligence agencies, by the agencies of our closest allies for years now.

00:02:35.900 And now, more recently, we've heard that Beijing is now meddling in our democracy itself.

00:02:42.860 There are, in the two most recent elections, there is evidence that Beijing has directly meddled. For example,

00:02:51.860 in the last election, just over a year ago, McGill University researchers documented that Beijing

00:02:59.200 spread disinformation through proxies, in this case, a translation bureau that does work for Beijing,

00:03:05.760 on Chinese language social media platforms, that had a negative impact on about a dozen candidates

00:03:13.440 in the 2021 federal election. Then more recently, just in the last two weeks, we've heard that,

00:03:23.040 according to a global news report of November 7th, that the Prime Minister was briefed last January

00:03:30.820 on Beijing indirectly funding a clandestine network of at least 11 election candidates in the 2019 election.

00:03:40.980 So it's clear that Beijing is using its money, its influence to intimidate Canadians, to disrupt

00:03:49.320 the lives of Canadians, to coerce Canadians, and now to meddle in our democracy. And it's long past

00:03:55.460 time for the government to come clean about this and to take action to stop this from happening on Canadian soil.

00:04:00.100 Well, you brought it up in question period a little while ago, I think it was yesterday or the day before,

00:04:05.040 where during the robocall scandal, you remember that from many years ago, the liberals were hyperventilating

00:04:11.060 that there might have been interference or some wrongdoing in our election. Now there is potential

00:04:18.340 that there was some really serious implications from a foreign government into our election system,

00:04:26.520 and they don't seem at all concerned. The hyperventilating is, they're okay.

00:04:31.160 Well, first of all, they're not answering questions. That's true.

00:04:35.140 When have they? It's been seven years, really.

00:04:37.040 Exactly. They're not answering questions. And they've been more, most recently, they've been deflecting

00:04:42.380 from our questions by simply saying, there's no, there's been, there was no overall impact

00:04:48.720 to the integrity of the 2019 or 2021 elections. They've also been saying there's, there was no,

00:04:57.700 that these elections, these elections overall were free and fair. And, you know, my response to that is,

00:05:04.780 we're not questioning the overall result of the 2019 or 2021 elections. We're, we are talking about

00:05:12.620 interference that's taking place in a number of ridings, perhaps a dozen or so ridings,

00:05:17.720 in both elections. And we need to know what happens so we can get to the bottom of this,

00:05:22.580 and so that people can be held accountable.

00:05:25.020 Well, you, you also mentioned about how there's different pressures being put on

00:05:29.260 people within Canada. Does this have, like, tell us about these police stations that have

00:05:34.680 basically been springing up by the Communist Party of China. What is that about?

00:05:39.480 Yeah, so the, according to Safeguard Defenders, which is a human rights group based in Spain,

00:05:45.980 that has documented this, these police stations that Beijing has established illegally, I might add,

00:05:54.580 in many countries around the world, came to light that three of these illegal police stations

00:05:59.240 were established in the greater Toronto area, against Canadian law, against international law.

00:06:06.340 If Beijing wants to provide, Beijing's excuse is that it is simply providing the renewal of

00:06:12.980 driver's licenses and other services through these stations. But that doesn't make them legal.

00:06:21.180 If Beijing wants to provide these kinds of services for the renewal of driver's licenses,

00:06:26.180 for people who have driver's licenses from the People's Republic of China, they can do so at the

00:06:32.340 accredited embassy and missions and consulates here in Canada. That's what they are accredited for.

00:06:39.520 That's why those diplomats have been given credentials by the Canadian government. So if they want to offer

00:06:44.280 services to their citizens here in Canada, they can do so through their embassy and consulates.

00:06:49.920 So there's no reason for these police stations to exist, except for the fact that they're there

00:06:55.020 to act as a station for Beijing's agents to operate out of, to intimidate Canadians here on Canadian

00:07:04.060 soil, to coerce them to do certain things, to go back to the People's Republic of China or to do other

00:07:10.380 things. And I might add that these stations are really insidious. They're really, really subversive.

00:07:18.240 And here's why. If you go to the addresses of these three stations, which, by the way, Beijing

00:07:24.240 published publicly in its own state-owned media, if you go to these addresses, they look nondescript.

00:07:33.300 One's a residence, another is in a strip mall, and another is in a nondescript office building.

00:07:40.800 And so you might conclude, well, there's no real, it doesn't look like a lot's going on here, so why

00:07:48.360 are we all worried? But that's why they are so dangerous, because they look completely innocent.

00:07:55.220 But they're not, because we know that Beijing's agents are working here and in other democracies

00:08:01.880 communities to coerce our citizens into doing certain things they don't want to do. And if

00:08:07.760 these stations, we believe, are being used as a base for these kinds of operations, and that is

00:08:13.760 completely unacceptable, which is why we've called on the Trudeau government to shut them down

00:08:18.100 immediately. So what's the government's response when you ask questions about this? Well, they've been

00:08:21.940 hiding behind the RCMP. They've said that the RCMP is conducting a criminal investigation.

00:08:26.040 But our view is that that's fine for the RCMP to conduct a criminal investigation, but there's

00:08:32.380 a lot more in addition to a criminal investigation that the government should be doing. So first off,

00:08:37.580 they should be calling Beijing's ambassador to Canada on the carpet, indicating in no uncertain

00:08:44.600 terms how angry the Canadian government is that Beijing has violated Canadian law and international

00:08:50.760 law with the establishment of these three stations. Second thing they need to do is they need to

00:08:55.000 investigate all the people working out of those stations to ensure that if any diplomats accredited

00:09:04.260 to Beijing's embassy or its consulate are working out of these stations, have been involved with the

00:09:09.760 establishment of these stations, that they have their credentials stripped, and that they are removed

00:09:14.120 from Canada. And the final thing they ought to be doing is they should be reviewing the visa status of

00:09:21.520 anybody working from or associated with these stations. And if it turns out, there are people

00:09:27.380 who came here on a visa from Beijing. They clearly didn't come under, they clearly came under false

00:09:34.220 pretenses. Absolutely. And they should have their visas stripped and they should be deported. And so 0.73

00:09:37.960 those are some of the immediate actions the government has been taking. But as is typical with this

00:09:42.160 government, they are very slow to react from the threats that we're facing from Beijing.

00:09:45.600 Well, how long did it take for them to deny Huawei access to our telecommunications industry,

00:09:49.840 despite the Five Eyes saying for the longest time that this was problematic? It was years.

00:09:54.520 It took them three years. Yeah. In fact, it took them more than three years. I can remember this

00:10:00.760 vividly. It was in the spring of 2019 that then Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale said the government

00:10:08.240 would be considering, would be making a decision on Huawei before October of that year. Later that

00:10:14.240 summer of 2019, he said the decision would be delayed till after October of 2019. We didn't get a

00:10:21.840 decision until this year in 2022, some three years later. What happened in October of 2019?

00:10:28.580 Well, there was an election. Yes. Yeah. And so we were the last of the Five Eyes to take any decision in 0.84

00:10:34.320 respect of Huawei. And so, again, a typical example of this government dragging its heels on addressing

00:10:39.720 the threats from Beijing. And the Winnipeg Lab, that seems to have disappeared from the headlines as

00:10:43.920 well. Two scientists escorted out under investigation by the RCMP, allegations of stolen intellectual

00:10:50.320 property given back to the People's Republic of China. That is extremely concerning, especially for

00:10:57.080 the high security that the lab represents and what is going on inside. Yeah. We know some things about

00:11:03.520 what went wrong at that lab, and we don't know a whole lot of other things, which is why we demanded

00:11:08.520 the documents concerning that lab. We issued four orders in the last parliament asking for the

00:11:15.820 documents. The government, though, not only refused to hand over these documents in defiance

00:11:19.820 of the parliament's orders, it also took the speaker to court just before the last federal election.

00:11:26.120 And so they continue to resist handing over answers publicly. And so we don't know exactly what

00:11:34.040 happened. What we do know is very, very concerning. We know that a military personnel from the People's

00:11:41.780 Republic of China, from the People's Liberation Army, were admitted into the lab in direct violation of

00:11:47.480 the government's own security rules. We know that the researchers working at that lab against Canadian

00:11:54.160 intellectual property law, registered patents based on research done at that lab in the People's

00:12:00.560 Republic of China, when the law says that those patents should be registered here in Canada. We know that

00:12:09.280 so many other things about this lab, but what we do know is a fraction of what we should know.

00:12:14.240 Right, exactly. And so we need to get to the bottom of this.

00:12:17.040 Unfortunately, what's happened in this parliament is that the four orders demanding these documents

00:12:25.440 dissolved with the dissolution of the previous parliament. So we were left with no ability to

00:12:31.520 rely on those orders. When we tried to bring forward new orders for the documents in this parliament,

00:12:36.400 the NDP changed its... They lost their spine a bit.

00:12:39.120 Yeah, they lost their spine. They changed their position and they sided with the Trudeau government and

00:12:44.400 voted with them, denying us the ability to resurrect these orders. And so as a consequence,

00:12:49.360 we were left with no other recourse but to participate in this government committee,

00:12:54.160 this ENSECOP committee, which will meet in secret, that may get access to some of the information in

00:13:01.360 these documents. The problem with this committee is that not only is it under the power and control of the

00:13:07.120 prime minister, it also has set up a three-person panel that is, in effect, a three-judge panel that

00:13:20.320 will decide what information the committee members will get. And I don't think parliament should play

00:13:26.640 second fiddle to our judicial system of government. I think we should be co-equals.

00:13:31.200 Absolutely.

00:13:32.000 And so I think from a constitutional point of view, I think it's an improper structure. But

00:13:37.520 that's the only option we have because the NDP sided with the Liberals and refused to resurrect the

00:13:42.000 orders from the last parliament that would have compelled the government ultimately to produce

00:13:46.000 these documents for us. What are you hearing, based on everything we've just talked about,

00:13:49.680 what are you hearing from your counterparts? I know you're kind of dialed in to other parliaments of

00:13:54.720 other governments and you've got connections pretty much everywhere. What are people saying?

00:13:59.600 As an opposition, we're seeing how unserious this government is about a whole range of topics,

00:14:05.680 whether from the relations with foreign governments to getting a passport. It's just like everything's

00:14:11.680 broken. What are other people saying? Are they recognizing that it is an unserious government we

00:14:17.760 have here in Canada? I've heard both privately and publicly from some of our closest allies

00:14:24.960 that they're waiting on the government to come up with a coherent foreign policy,

00:14:28.480 to come up with a coherent military and defense policy. In fact, the U.S. ambassador to Canada

00:14:36.320 publicly criticized the Trudeau government this past spring. And remember, this is a democratic

00:14:42.480 administration led by President Biden, who appointed a democratic ambassador to Canada,

00:14:49.360 Mr. Cohen, who publicly criticized the Trudeau government's last spring budget and said that it

00:14:54.880 was a huge disappointment because the budget didn't meet Canada's commitment to the NATO alliance,

00:15:00.400 did not meet Canada's commitment to our collective defense and security, and was disappointing.

00:15:06.960 So we are hearing from allies that they don't think Canada has a coherent foreign policy, that we're not

00:15:14.960 stepping up to the plate. We've heard from a number of allies that they're awaiting our policy on the Indo-Pacific

00:15:20.560 region, something that the government has promised for years now. The Arctic too. The Arctic goes on.

00:15:26.800 Exactly. And we're waiting for the policy. So, you know, the government has been slow to manage these

00:15:34.240 files. And I think, you know, that just doesn't apply to foreign affairs. We've all seen the length of

00:15:42.240 time it takes to process things here in the government of Canada, whether it's our payroll systems that don't

00:15:46.960 work or passports that take too long to process or airports that seem to be more chaotic and delayed

00:15:52.960 than airports in peer countries. The list goes on. So, you know, I don't think it's a government that's

00:15:59.520 done a good job of managing major files. For me, when, well, this was kind of an eye-opener for me

00:16:04.640 when I saw it happening. There was the agreement, this was a few years ago, I think right around the

00:16:09.680 2020, 2021, somewhere in there, when Australia, the United States, the United Kingdom came together

00:16:16.000 on a military agreement to buy nuclear subs and other things. And it just seems that Canada was

00:16:22.080 was not even consulted on this, even though we're supposed to be a partner with each, you know,

00:16:25.920 we have two Commonwealth countries, we are closest neighbor and ally. Like it was, it was to me,

00:16:30.800 it was just a punch in the gut. Yeah, it's, it's the AUKUS agreement, it's a submarinal defense pact

00:16:36.960 between Australia, the United States, the United Kingdom on submarinal defense. And for Canada not

00:16:43.200 to, not only to not be part of this, but to be completely taken by surprise by this new submarinal

00:16:50.320 agreement, I think is a reflection of this government's standing in amongst our allies.

00:16:56.400 And in the submarinal pact is, you know, is something Canada should have been part of,

00:17:01.280 quite simply for the reason that while we are the second largest landmass in the world,

00:17:06.000 we have the world's longest coastline. That's very true. We are surrounded by the Arctic Pacific and

00:17:12.960 Atlantic oceans. And it's an area that Russia is increasingly menacing us on. That's right. 0.97

00:17:19.040 And, you know, I think of a recent example that should cause Canadians a great deal of alarm.

00:17:23.360 Uh, Canadians will know that recently the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, natural gas pipeline that took gas

00:17:31.280 from Russia to Europe was blown up. Uh, a 50 meter hole was blown in the pipeline in, uh, on the seabed

00:17:39.600 of the Baltic Sea, rendering the pipeline useless. Um, the evidence suggests that Russia blew it up.

00:17:47.760 Uh, and suggestions are that it did so using its autonomous submarinal capability. Why is that relevant

00:17:55.520 to us? Well, off the coast of St. John's, Newfoundland are bundles and bundles of submarinal cables that

00:18:05.600 connect North America to Europe. All, much of our digital communications flows on those cables.

00:18:13.520 And if we don't have submarinal capabilities to keep an eye out underwater about what is going on,

00:18:22.400 uh, a nefarious actor like Russia could very well blow up those cables and sever all digital

00:18:29.840 communications between Canada and the rest of the world. So that's just one example of why we've got

00:18:35.840 to get serious about our defense and security, particularly after Russia's invasion of Ukraine

00:18:40.400 that began on February 24th. I couldn't agree with you. I have so many more questions. We have

00:18:44.720 to get out of here. Question period's about to, about to start. So I do, I encourage you to, uh,

00:18:49.520 reach over to question period and hear it. Always give the guests the last word. The floor is yours.

00:18:54.960 Well, Jamie, we're going to continue to pursue what's in Canada's interests, what's on based on

00:19:00.640 Canada's values. As an official opposition, we have a job to do to get this government to understand

00:19:05.440 it's time to get serious about our foreign policy time to get serious about our defense and security

00:19:10.720 policy. And, uh, I'm glad to be part of the team with you. That's doing exactly that on the floor

00:19:15.920 of the house of commons. Thank you very much, Michael Chong, member of parliament for Wellington

00:19:19.200 Halton Hills. Also the critic for foreign affairs. We do appreciate his time. We, it was a great

00:19:23.840 conversation went long, but it always does so many more questions have to get you on again. And we thank

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The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - November 24, 2022

The Blueprint： Foreign Interference in Canada？

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