The Blueprint： Foreign Interference in Canada？
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Summary
In this episode, Conservative MP Michael Chong joins us to discuss the growing influence of the Communist Party of China in Canada, including the training of Chinese troops on Canadian soil, election financing, and the arrest of a Hydro-Quebec employee.
Transcript
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Hello and welcome once again to The Blueprints. This is Canada's Conservative Podcast. I'm your
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host, Jamie Schmael, Member of Parliament for Halliburton Corps with Alex Brock with new content
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for you every single Tuesday, 1.30 p.m. Eastern Time. We ask that you like, comments, share,
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subscribe to this program. If you can't listen or watch in its entirety right this second,
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download it on platforms like CastBox, iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, you name it, it is out
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there. A great show for you lined up today. We're going to talk about the Communist Party of China's
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growing influence and presence here in Canada. To talk about that, we're going to bring on a good
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friend of the show, Michael Chong. He's the Member of Parliament for Wellington Halton Hills, also the
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critic for Foreign Affairs. Thanks for joining us. Great to be here, Jamie. All right, there is a lot
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to talk about. I know we've had you on the show before to talk about a whole bunch of things, but
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we can go wherever you want. We can start with the training of Chinese troops on Canadian soil. We can
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talk about the Winnipeg labs, we can talk about the police stations in Canada, or we can talk about
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election financing. It's your call. Maybe you want to start from the beginning. Maybe we can rewind the
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tape and just give people a little recap before we get going. Sure. For years, Canada's intelligence
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community and the intelligence community of our closest allies have been warning the government of
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Canada about Beijing's interference operations that are taking place here on Canadian soil.
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Several years ago, for example, the head of CSIS said that Beijing is stealing our intellectual
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property and threatening international security in five sensitive areas of research and development
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on Canadian university campuses and Canadian companies. And just this past week, we heard about
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the arrest of a Hydro-Quebec employee for stealing intellectual property and passing it on to Beijing.
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So for years, we've been hearing about this. We've been hearing about, for example,
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intimidation of Canadians here on Canadian soil that have been coerced under threats to their family
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back in China to go back to China for further interrogation. We have heard about pro-Hong Kong democracy
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activists, those who are standing up for the human rights of Tibetans and Uyghurs here in Canada
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being threatened by people acting at the behest of Beijing. So these reports have been documented and
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reported by Canada's intelligence agencies, by the agencies of our closest allies for years now.
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And now, more recently, we've heard that Beijing is now meddling in our democracy itself.
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There are, in the two most recent elections, there is evidence that Beijing has directly meddled. For example,
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in the last election, just over a year ago, McGill University researchers documented that Beijing
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spread disinformation through proxies, in this case, a translation bureau that does work for Beijing,
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on Chinese language social media platforms, that had a negative impact on about a dozen candidates
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in the 2021 federal election. Then more recently, just in the last two weeks, we've heard that,
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according to a global news report of November 7th, that the Prime Minister was briefed last January
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on Beijing indirectly funding a clandestine network of at least 11 election candidates in the 2019 election.
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So it's clear that Beijing is using its money, its influence to intimidate Canadians, to disrupt
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the lives of Canadians, to coerce Canadians, and now to meddle in our democracy. And it's long past
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time for the government to come clean about this and to take action to stop this from happening on Canadian soil.
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Well, you brought it up in question period a little while ago, I think it was yesterday or the day before,
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where during the robocall scandal, you remember that from many years ago, the liberals were hyperventilating
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that there might have been interference or some wrongdoing in our election. Now there is potential
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that there was some really serious implications from a foreign government into our election system,
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and they don't seem at all concerned. The hyperventilating is, they're okay.
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Well, first of all, they're not answering questions. That's true.
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Exactly. They're not answering questions. And they've been more, most recently, they've been deflecting
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from our questions by simply saying, there's no, there's been, there was no overall impact
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to the integrity of the 2019 or 2021 elections. They've also been saying there's, there was no,
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that these elections, these elections overall were free and fair. And, you know, my response to that is,
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we're not questioning the overall result of the 2019 or 2021 elections. We're, we are talking about
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interference that's taking place in a number of ridings, perhaps a dozen or so ridings,
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in both elections. And we need to know what happens so we can get to the bottom of this,
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Well, you, you also mentioned about how there's different pressures being put on
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people within Canada. Does this have, like, tell us about these police stations that have
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basically been springing up by the Communist Party of China. What is that about?
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Yeah, so the, according to Safeguard Defenders, which is a human rights group based in Spain,
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that has documented this, these police stations that Beijing has established illegally, I might add,
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in many countries around the world, came to light that three of these illegal police stations
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were established in the greater Toronto area, against Canadian law, against international law.
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If Beijing wants to provide, Beijing's excuse is that it is simply providing the renewal of
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driver's licenses and other services through these stations. But that doesn't make them legal.
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If Beijing wants to provide these kinds of services for the renewal of driver's licenses,
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for people who have driver's licenses from the People's Republic of China, they can do so at the
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accredited embassy and missions and consulates here in Canada. That's what they are accredited for.
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That's why those diplomats have been given credentials by the Canadian government. So if they want to offer
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services to their citizens here in Canada, they can do so through their embassy and consulates.
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So there's no reason for these police stations to exist, except for the fact that they're there
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to act as a station for Beijing's agents to operate out of, to intimidate Canadians here on Canadian
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soil, to coerce them to do certain things, to go back to the People's Republic of China or to do other
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things. And I might add that these stations are really insidious. They're really, really subversive.
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And here's why. If you go to the addresses of these three stations, which, by the way, Beijing
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published publicly in its own state-owned media, if you go to these addresses, they look nondescript.
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One's a residence, another is in a strip mall, and another is in a nondescript office building.
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And so you might conclude, well, there's no real, it doesn't look like a lot's going on here, so why
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are we all worried? But that's why they are so dangerous, because they look completely innocent.
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But they're not, because we know that Beijing's agents are working here and in other democracies
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communities to coerce our citizens into doing certain things they don't want to do. And if
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these stations, we believe, are being used as a base for these kinds of operations, and that is
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completely unacceptable, which is why we've called on the Trudeau government to shut them down
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immediately. So what's the government's response when you ask questions about this? Well, they've been
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hiding behind the RCMP. They've said that the RCMP is conducting a criminal investigation.
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But our view is that that's fine for the RCMP to conduct a criminal investigation, but there's
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a lot more in addition to a criminal investigation that the government should be doing. So first off,
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they should be calling Beijing's ambassador to Canada on the carpet, indicating in no uncertain
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terms how angry the Canadian government is that Beijing has violated Canadian law and international
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law with the establishment of these three stations. Second thing they need to do is they need to
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investigate all the people working out of those stations to ensure that if any diplomats accredited
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to Beijing's embassy or its consulate are working out of these stations, have been involved with the
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establishment of these stations, that they have their credentials stripped, and that they are removed
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from Canada. And the final thing they ought to be doing is they should be reviewing the visa status of
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anybody working from or associated with these stations. And if it turns out, there are people
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who came here on a visa from Beijing. They clearly didn't come under, they clearly came under false
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pretenses. Absolutely. And they should have their visas stripped and they should be deported. And so
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those are some of the immediate actions the government has been taking. But as is typical with this
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government, they are very slow to react from the threats that we're facing from Beijing.
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Well, how long did it take for them to deny Huawei access to our telecommunications industry,
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despite the Five Eyes saying for the longest time that this was problematic? It was years.
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It took them three years. Yeah. In fact, it took them more than three years. I can remember this
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vividly. It was in the spring of 2019 that then Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale said the government
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would be considering, would be making a decision on Huawei before October of that year. Later that
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summer of 2019, he said the decision would be delayed till after October of 2019. We didn't get a
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decision until this year in 2022, some three years later. What happened in October of 2019?
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Well, there was an election. Yes. Yeah. And so we were the last of the Five Eyes to take any decision in
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respect of Huawei. And so, again, a typical example of this government dragging its heels on addressing
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the threats from Beijing. And the Winnipeg Lab, that seems to have disappeared from the headlines as
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well. Two scientists escorted out under investigation by the RCMP, allegations of stolen intellectual
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property given back to the People's Republic of China. That is extremely concerning, especially for
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the high security that the lab represents and what is going on inside. Yeah. We know some things about
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what went wrong at that lab, and we don't know a whole lot of other things, which is why we demanded
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the documents concerning that lab. We issued four orders in the last parliament asking for the
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documents. The government, though, not only refused to hand over these documents in defiance
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of the parliament's orders, it also took the speaker to court just before the last federal election.
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And so they continue to resist handing over answers publicly. And so we don't know exactly what
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happened. What we do know is very, very concerning. We know that a military personnel from the People's
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Republic of China, from the People's Liberation Army, were admitted into the lab in direct violation of
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the government's own security rules. We know that the researchers working at that lab against Canadian
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intellectual property law, registered patents based on research done at that lab in the People's
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Republic of China, when the law says that those patents should be registered here in Canada. We know that
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so many other things about this lab, but what we do know is a fraction of what we should know.
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Right, exactly. And so we need to get to the bottom of this.
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Unfortunately, what's happened in this parliament is that the four orders demanding these documents
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dissolved with the dissolution of the previous parliament. So we were left with no ability to
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rely on those orders. When we tried to bring forward new orders for the documents in this parliament,
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the NDP changed its... They lost their spine a bit.
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Yeah, they lost their spine. They changed their position and they sided with the Trudeau government and
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voted with them, denying us the ability to resurrect these orders. And so as a consequence,
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we were left with no other recourse but to participate in this government committee,
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this ENSECOP committee, which will meet in secret, that may get access to some of the information in
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these documents. The problem with this committee is that not only is it under the power and control of the
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prime minister, it also has set up a three-person panel that is, in effect, a three-judge panel that
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will decide what information the committee members will get. And I don't think parliament should play
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second fiddle to our judicial system of government. I think we should be co-equals.
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And so I think from a constitutional point of view, I think it's an improper structure. But
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that's the only option we have because the NDP sided with the Liberals and refused to resurrect the
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orders from the last parliament that would have compelled the government ultimately to produce
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these documents for us. What are you hearing, based on everything we've just talked about,
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what are you hearing from your counterparts? I know you're kind of dialed in to other parliaments of
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other governments and you've got connections pretty much everywhere. What are people saying?
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As an opposition, we're seeing how unserious this government is about a whole range of topics,
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whether from the relations with foreign governments to getting a passport. It's just like everything's
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broken. What are other people saying? Are they recognizing that it is an unserious government we
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have here in Canada? I've heard both privately and publicly from some of our closest allies
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that they're waiting on the government to come up with a coherent foreign policy,
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to come up with a coherent military and defense policy. In fact, the U.S. ambassador to Canada
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publicly criticized the Trudeau government this past spring. And remember, this is a democratic
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administration led by President Biden, who appointed a democratic ambassador to Canada,
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Mr. Cohen, who publicly criticized the Trudeau government's last spring budget and said that it
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was a huge disappointment because the budget didn't meet Canada's commitment to the NATO alliance,
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did not meet Canada's commitment to our collective defense and security, and was disappointing.
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So we are hearing from allies that they don't think Canada has a coherent foreign policy, that we're not
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stepping up to the plate. We've heard from a number of allies that they're awaiting our policy on the Indo-Pacific
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region, something that the government has promised for years now. The Arctic too. The Arctic goes on.
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Exactly. And we're waiting for the policy. So, you know, the government has been slow to manage these
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files. And I think, you know, that just doesn't apply to foreign affairs. We've all seen the length of
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time it takes to process things here in the government of Canada, whether it's our payroll systems that don't
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work or passports that take too long to process or airports that seem to be more chaotic and delayed
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than airports in peer countries. The list goes on. So, you know, I don't think it's a government that's
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done a good job of managing major files. For me, when, well, this was kind of an eye-opener for me
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when I saw it happening. There was the agreement, this was a few years ago, I think right around the
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2020, 2021, somewhere in there, when Australia, the United States, the United Kingdom came together
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on a military agreement to buy nuclear subs and other things. And it just seems that Canada was
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was not even consulted on this, even though we're supposed to be a partner with each, you know,
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we have two Commonwealth countries, we are closest neighbor and ally. Like it was, it was to me,
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it was just a punch in the gut. Yeah, it's, it's the AUKUS agreement, it's a submarinal defense pact
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between Australia, the United States, the United Kingdom on submarinal defense. And for Canada not
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to, not only to not be part of this, but to be completely taken by surprise by this new submarinal
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agreement, I think is a reflection of this government's standing in amongst our allies.
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And in the submarinal pact is, you know, is something Canada should have been part of,
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quite simply for the reason that while we are the second largest landmass in the world,
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we have the world's longest coastline. That's very true. We are surrounded by the Arctic Pacific and
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Atlantic oceans. And it's an area that Russia is increasingly menacing us on. That's right.
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And, you know, I think of a recent example that should cause Canadians a great deal of alarm.
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Uh, Canadians will know that recently the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, natural gas pipeline that took gas
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from Russia to Europe was blown up. Uh, a 50 meter hole was blown in the pipeline in, uh, on the seabed
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of the Baltic Sea, rendering the pipeline useless. Um, the evidence suggests that Russia blew it up.
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Uh, and suggestions are that it did so using its autonomous submarinal capability. Why is that relevant
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to us? Well, off the coast of St. John's, Newfoundland are bundles and bundles of submarinal cables that
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connect North America to Europe. All, much of our digital communications flows on those cables.
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And if we don't have submarinal capabilities to keep an eye out underwater about what is going on,
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uh, a nefarious actor like Russia could very well blow up those cables and sever all digital
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communications between Canada and the rest of the world. So that's just one example of why we've got
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to get serious about our defense and security, particularly after Russia's invasion of Ukraine
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that began on February 24th. I couldn't agree with you. I have so many more questions. We have
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to get out of here. Question period's about to, about to start. So I do, I encourage you to, uh,
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reach over to question period and hear it. Always give the guests the last word. The floor is yours.
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Well, Jamie, we're going to continue to pursue what's in Canada's interests, what's on based on
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Canada's values. As an official opposition, we have a job to do to get this government to understand
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it's time to get serious about our foreign policy time to get serious about our defense and security
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policy. And, uh, I'm glad to be part of the team with you. That's doing exactly that on the floor
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of the house of commons. Thank you very much, Michael Chong, member of parliament for Wellington
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Halton Hills. Also the critic for foreign affairs. We do appreciate his time. We, it was a great
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conversation went long, but it always does so many more questions have to get you on again. And we thank
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you for your time as well. We ask the like comment, share, subscribe, share this program. We know there are
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