The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - December 13, 2022


The Blueprint： Medical assistance in dying with MP Cooper

Topics
medical assistance in dying Canada
Hosted by
Jamie Schmal
Mentioned
Michael Cooper Bill C-63 Albert Edmonton Jamie Spale Larry Brock Lametti Lawrence McCauley Glenn Motts Cowortha Hanukkah Carter
The Blueprint： Foreign Interference in Canada？ Liberals don’t want hunting？

Episode Stats


Length

20 minutes

Words per minute

149.65

Word count

3,035

Sentence count

177

Harmful content

Misogyny

4

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, Conservative MP for St. Albert, Alberta, Michael Cooper joins me to talk about a controversial issue going on right now in the political bubble called Ottawa. We re talking about Medical Assistance in Dying, otherwise known as MAID, was brought in in 2016 as a compassionate way to say goodbye to a loved one on their own terms. And now, we ve seen a number of troubling cases where people have qualified for MAID who aren t eligible. And what s even more concerning is that there doesn t seem to be any real follow-up.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome once again to The Blueprints. This is Canada's Conservative Podcast. I'm your
00:00:08.900 host, Jamie Spale, Member of Parliament for Halliburton. Cowortha likes Brock with new content
00:00:12.540 for you every single Tuesday, 1.30 p.m. Eastern Time. With that content, again, I know you've
00:00:17.300 heard it many times. We ask you to like, comment, subscribe, share this program. There's someone
00:00:21.460 in your social media network I know that would like to hear this message. Probably something
00:00:25.380 they're not getting from the mainstream media and that's where your role comes in. Of course,
00:00:29.040 you can tell them they can listen to it later on in platforms like CastBox, iTunes, Google
00:00:33.280 Play, Spotify, you name it, it is out there. I've got Michael Cooper, the Member of Parliament
00:00:37.960 for St. Albert Edmonton, to join me here today to talk about a pretty controversial issue
00:00:42.300 going on right now in the bubble called Ottawa. We're talking about medical assistance in dying,
00:00:48.380 otherwise known as MAID. It was brought in in 2016 as what some would say a compassionate
00:00:53.880 way to say goodbye to a loved one on their own terms. On the other side, you had people
00:00:58.300 saying it was a slippery slope. And now that we've had a vote in 2019 to change some of those
00:01:04.000 rules and more potential changes are coming. So Michael, thank you so much for coming on and
00:01:08.160 talking to us about that. Good to be with you, Jamie.
00:01:10.420 Well, we're seeing all over the news this conversation about the medical assistance in dying or MAID
00:01:17.180 program being offered to people that are potentially struggling with mental illness. That was something
00:01:24.040 that the whole legislation, when it was first brought in, of course it was amended a few years
00:01:29.120 later, was supposed to protect against. Well, that's right. And we have seen a number of troubling
00:01:35.440 cases where people have qualified for MAID who aren't eligible. And what's even more concerning
00:01:43.080 is that there doesn't seem to be any real follow-up. Existing safeguards that were supposedly
00:01:50.420 there to protect vulnerable people from falling through the cracks are not being properly enforced
00:01:57.200 and monitored. And instead of addressing that very real problem, the government, the liberals,
00:02:04.980 have been turning a blind eye to this issue. I mean, just as an example, when I brought up the case
00:02:11.420 of an Abbotsford British Columbia woman who accessed MAID under suspicious circumstances, suspicious
00:02:18.420 enough that an RCMP investigation was launched, and I posed a question to the Prime Minister,
00:02:24.200 he accused me of being wrapped up in ideology. It's just an illustration of the attitude of
00:02:30.880 this government. And meanwhile, their intent on expanding MAID significantly further to the
00:02:38.880 point now that we will have the most permissive MAID regime in the world. And the biggest change 0.99
00:02:45.460 in that regard comes in March of next year when the sunset clause with respect to mental illness
00:02:53.240 will expire and effective then persons suffering solely from an underlying mental health condition
00:03:01.240 will be eligible for MAID. 0.88
00:03:03.240 So MAID in 2016 had a number of safeguards. Some were taken away in 2019, 2020 with the witnesses,
00:03:12.520 the two witnesses, the second opinion, all that, the cooling off period, that kind of thing. And now
00:03:18.200 the Veterans Affairs Committee is looking into reports of multiple veterans being offered MAID for their
00:03:26.860 potential medical illness or just trying to access the benefits they're guaranteed.
00:03:31.640 It's really, really alarming. And it's not only alarming, it may be criminal because it is a criminal code offence
00:03:42.860 to counsel someone to commit suicide regardless of whether the person actually goes through with committing suicide.
00:03:50.860 And when reports first came out, the Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lawrence McCauley, and his deputy minister
00:03:59.860 came to the Veterans Affairs Committee. I was there. And they said that it was an isolated case, that they had
00:04:07.860 undertaken a thorough investigation and everyone could rest assured that it involved one employee and one case.
00:04:15.860 We're finding out now that there are multiple cases. It's not an isolated case. And it really begs the question,
00:04:24.860 how is this possible? How did this happen? And we need to get to the bottom of it.
00:04:31.860 Yeah, where's the compassion?
00:04:33.860 Where's the compassion? I mean, veterans who come to Veterans Affairs deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.
00:04:42.860 They deserve to be able to get access to supports. Many of these veterans who are seeking help suffer from physical or mental injuries arising from their service.
00:04:56.860 And instead of getting the help that they need to be offered deaf, to be told that maybe you should consider MAID.
00:05:03.860 I mean, think about the impact that that might have on someone who is struggling, who is going through a difficult time.
00:05:11.860 It could have a coercive impact on someone.
00:05:15.860 That could hurt your mental health. I know there's many stories, but the one in particular I'd like to bring up is the veteran, the Paralympian who was having trouble accessing a lift for her home.
00:05:28.860 And Veterans Affairs, basically, obviously there's the shortened version.
00:05:32.860 Basically, why don't you just consider medical assistance in dying rather than actually funding the lift for this veteran who is obviously capable of performing in society.
00:05:43.860 This just lacks common sense within the department itself.
00:05:48.860 And how, as an individual who is part of the public service, like you said, who is supposed to be treating veterans with compassion and respect,
00:05:56.860 how they can just go outside their lane like that and start to counsel people in this way?
00:06:02.860 Yeah, it just speaks to misplaced priorities.
00:06:07.860 Instead of offering MAID, the minister should be focused on improving services, dealing with the backlog, the huge backlog that exists at Veterans Affairs.
00:06:17.860 And as I emphasized at the beginning, it may be criminal what we're talking about here.
00:06:24.860 And I'm glad that the Minister of Veterans Affairs has referred at least some cases to the RCMP.
00:06:32.860 Any of these cases need to be referred to the RCMP and appropriate charges need to be laid if the evidence warrants it.
00:06:40.860 I think the conversation also goes to a larger conversation about government control over a larger way of life in Canadians, right?
00:06:50.860 I wanted to bring up this headline. I'll bring it up for you. I'm not texting or tweeting.
00:06:54.860 And this came up from 2017 from the CBC.
00:06:57.860 Headline, medically assisted deaths could save millions in health care spending, according to a report that was January 23rd, 2017.
00:07:05.860 So it goes from offering those who are experiencing a catastrophic illness where death is foreseeable in the near future,
00:07:17.860 to now kind of being normalized in circles in the media and in the left where they are saying,
00:07:24.860 well, you know what, if we offer this to more and more people, we could actually save money in our health care system.
00:07:29.860 That to me is absolutely incredible.
00:07:32.860 And it's almost like it's being normalized, this kind of conversation.
00:07:35.860 You're right. When MAID was first introduced, when Bill C-14, which was the legislative response to the Supreme Court's Carter decision, was passed,
00:07:46.860 MAID was generally thought to be something that was end of life when death was imminent and as a means to end suffering just before someone might otherwise pass away.
00:08:03.860 We're now seeing something that is very different than that.
00:08:08.860 Indeed, I would submit that calling it medical assistance in dying at this point is a misnomer,
00:08:15.860 because one of the safeguards that the Liberals removed about a year and a half ago was what I believe is the most important safeguard,
00:08:27.860 and that is that death be reasonably foreseeable.
00:08:30.860 As soon as you remove that requirement, it really opens the door.
00:08:36.860 Well, now we're also seeing those reports of people who are struggling to make ends meet.
00:08:40.860 Of course, inflation is at a 40 plus year high.
00:08:43.860 You know, Walkmans were still in style when we had this kind of inflation numbers.
00:08:47.860 The price of groceries are out of control.
00:08:50.860 Gasoline, home heating, everything is going up, I would say, directly linked to the policies of this government.
00:08:57.860 And now people are contemplating potentially using MAID as a way to just get away from the struggles in life. 0.99
00:09:04.860 And the government is almost turning a blind eye to all of this.
00:09:09.860 Well, they are.
00:09:10.860 And that's going to be even more problematic when the sunset clause expires in March in cases of mental illness.
00:09:20.860 You would think that on the question of mental illness, to expand MAID in that manner,
00:09:27.860 that considerable thought would be undertaken to determine whether this could be done safely,
00:09:34.860 that there would be meaningful consultations undertaken.
00:09:39.860 But none of those things took place.
00:09:42.860 Instead, what happened was Bill C-7, which removed the reasonable, death being reasonably foreseeable criteria,
00:09:52.860 that was introduced.
00:09:53.860 At the time, Minister Lametti was asked about expanding MAID in cases of mental illness.
00:09:58.860 He said, we're not ready.
00:09:59.860 There are inherent risks.
00:10:00.860 The bill goes over to the Senate, where a radical amendment to open the door to mental illness was passed.
00:10:09.860 And Lametti then all of a sudden flip-flogged.
00:10:12.860 He accepted the amendment and shut down debate and rammed the legislation through with that March of 2023 deadline, two years.
00:10:22.860 And in that regard, the government put the cart before the horse.
00:10:27.860 They made the decision to go ahead with it and then said, let's study it.
00:10:32.860 Well, upon studying it, including at our Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance and Dying,
00:10:39.860 which I'm the Vice Chair of, we have heard from experts, including leading psychiatrists,
00:10:46.860 who have said very clearly, this cannot be done safely.
00:10:51.860 And to that end, we issued in June an interim dissenting report calling on the government to, at the very least,
00:11:00.860 put a pause on this expansion until further study could be undertaken.
00:11:06.860 The government ignored that interim dissenting report.
00:11:10.860 But interestingly, two weeks ago, the Association of Chairs of Psychiatry, which include all of the 17 chairs of psychiatry at all medical schools in Canada,
00:11:25.860 issued a statement saying essentially what we said in our interim dissenting report, that we're not ready.
00:11:32.860 The government should extend the sunset clause, but they're up against the clock now that March is just around the corner.
00:11:41.860 Is it possible? I know I can imagine it would be quite divided within the Liberal caucus itself on to what to do next and where this leads.
00:11:51.860 Is it leading where it's supposed to or is it leading down a very dark passage?
00:11:55.860 Well, they don't have a lot of time to do it, and I don't think the minister appears amenable to that.
00:12:02.860 He's really taken, I would submit, an ideological approach as opposed to an evidence-based approach.
00:12:10.860 And when I speak about evidence with regards to, made in the context of soul mental illness,
00:12:17.860 one of the biggest problems that we heard from psychiatrists is that it's not possible to predict irremediability,
00:12:25.860 or at least very difficult. Now, what is irremediability?
00:12:28.860 Well, very simply, can someone go on to get better?
00:12:32.860 Right.
00:12:33.860 And if you can't predict that, then what that means is that persons who could go on to recover from their mental health issues,
00:12:44.860 who could go on to live happy and productive lives, could have their lives prematurely ended.
00:12:50.860 And that was one of the key things that the chairs of psychiatry raised in their statement two weeks ago.
00:13:00.860 And just going back to that conversation about government control and government,
00:13:04.860 if it controls too much, you can decide what you get, what you don't get.
00:13:08.860 Right. And going from that CBC headline and even starting in the middle of the pandemic,
00:13:13.860 you know, the conversations on the left and some in the media were,
00:13:17.860 well, if you're unvaccinated, then perhaps you don't get health care if you need to. Right.
00:13:21.860 Like this was a very, I think, dangerous conversation to take place,
00:13:25.860 especially the fact that they, those people doing it didn't seem to have any remorse about it,
00:13:30.860 that you could withhold a basic service that we rely on here in Canada to those that don't fit,
00:13:36.860 you know, fit into the description of, you know, was it the fringe minority, right?
00:13:44.860 Into the majority of the opinion. Right.
00:13:46.860 It was, to me, it was very shocking because I didn't think this would be even possible,
00:13:54.860 even liberal circles, to start pushing that narrative on people.
00:13:57.860 And it speaks to what kind of a society do we want to have, which is your point.
00:14:02.860 Yeah. And the kind of message that they're sending is that if you have a degenerative disability,
00:14:12.860 somehow maybe made as for you, as opposed to showing respect and love for the fact that people who live with degenerative disabilities
00:14:24.860 can be very happy and certainly deserving of support.
00:14:29.860 And instead, the government's response with Bill C-7, lifting the requirement that the death be reasonably foreseeable,
00:14:37.860 is to say, may be made as for you.
00:14:41.860 You're going to be uniquely singled out. Right.
00:14:43.860 Because you have a degenerative disability.
00:14:45.860 It raised international alarm, including from the UN Special Rapporteur on the rights of persons with disabilities,
00:14:52.860 who said that this government, this liberal government, is discriminating against persons with disabilities.
00:14:58.860 It raised opposition from virtually every disabilities rights organization in Canada,
00:15:06.860 who pleaded with the Liberals to stop, to show some respect, and who said very clearly,
00:15:16.860 this is a discriminatory policy.
00:15:19.860 And instead of listening, those calls fell on deaf ears.
00:15:24.860 And now it appears that the calls from leading mental health experts, leading psychiatrists,
00:15:31.860 the Association of Chairs of Psychiatry in Canada, they're pleased for the government to, at the very least,
00:15:38.860 put a hold on this next radical expansion it made with respect to soul mental illness,
00:15:43.860 is also about to fall on deaf ears.
00:15:45.860 So what happens next?
00:15:46.860 How can people who are concerned about this slippery slope that we've seemed to find ourselves on,
00:15:51.860 how can they help, how can they push back, or even have their voices heard?
00:15:56.860 I wish there was an easy answer because one of the things we have is a government that is sort of in control
00:16:06.860 in terms of setting the legislative agenda on this.
00:16:09.860 And we have a Minister of Justice who has repeatedly indicated that he has a specific approach,
00:16:19.860 a specific world view of how this should be done, and he hasn't responded to evidence-based opposition
00:16:29.860 to some of the measures that his government is about to embark upon with respect to mental illness,
00:16:35.860 and then going back to persons who have disabilities.
00:16:40.860 So I wish there was an easy answer, but I think the only thing for people to do, like on any issue,
00:16:46.860 is to be engaged, let their member of parliament know their concerns,
00:16:51.860 especially if it's a Liberal or NDP member,
00:16:56.860 and to voice their concerns using whatever platforms they have available.
00:17:04.860 Because I think part of the problem with this issue, in terms of where we're going,
00:17:10.860 which is on the wrong track, is that there isn't, I think to some degree, a level of awareness
00:17:17.860 of just how far things have gone and how radical MAID in Canada has become. 0.93
00:17:25.860 I think a lot of people still think that it is what it was initially understood to be,
00:17:31.860 something at a last resort at the very end of life, to give someone a few days less in which they might suffer.
00:17:41.860 Yeah. And we only have a few minutes left because, of course, question period is coming up.
00:17:46.860 As always, I have so many more questions.
00:17:49.860 I probably will round it out because we have gone way over time.
00:17:53.860 I always give the guests the last word. How you want to close it up is up to you.
00:17:58.860 You know, potentially you can talk about, you know, we mentioned the next steps,
00:18:03.860 the sunset clause, the dangerous precedent that's about to be set.
00:18:07.860 But also, maybe you can highlight, it's up to you, it's your time,
00:18:10.860 but also what kind of country do you want Canada to be?
00:18:13.860 Yeah. Well, I think that we need to respect life and the dignity of people
00:18:22.860 and to offer them care and support and to be compassionate.
00:18:29.860 And I think what we're seeing is the opposite of that.
00:18:34.860 And, you know, in terms of where this is going,
00:18:38.860 we have mental illness in March of 2023.
00:18:43.860 But also on the government's,
00:18:48.860 part of what the government is focused on is expanding medical assistance
00:18:53.860 and dying in cases of so-called mature minors.
00:18:59.860 Yeah, we didn't even get to that.
00:19:01.860 We didn't even get to that.
00:19:02.860 We didn't even talk about that.
00:19:03.860 Yeah, so it's, looking forward, I think right now the outlook is not a good one.
00:19:15.860 Yeah, I agree with you on that.
00:19:16.860 I wish I could be a little more optimistic, but unfortunately not.
00:19:20.860 Well, we will have you back on.
00:19:22.860 Michael Cooper, Member of Parliament for St. Albert Edmonton,
00:19:24.860 to talk about the other side of it.
00:19:26.860 We didn't even get to talk about that, the minor issue
00:19:28.860 and this being offered to potentially minors at this point.
00:19:31.860 But we thank him for his time.
00:19:33.860 We thank you for your time.
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00:19:58.860 Again, Happy Hanukkah, if you're celebrating Hanukkah.
00:20:01.860 Merry Christmas.
00:20:02.860 We will have another episode for you next Tuesday, 1.30 p.m. Eastern Time.
00:20:05.860 We're going to talk Emergencies Act.
00:20:06.860 We're going to talk about C-21, the Firearms Act,
00:20:09.860 with Larry Brock and Glenn Motts.
00:20:11.860 We hope you join us then.
00:20:12.860 Until then, remember, low taxes, less government, more freedom.
00:20:15.860 That's the blueprint.