The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - December 13, 2022


The Blueprint： Medical assistance in dying with MP Cooper


Episode Stats

Length

20 minutes

Words per Minute

149.64745

Word Count

3,035

Sentence Count

169

Misogynist Sentences

4


Summary

In this episode, Conservative MP for St. Albert, Alberta, Michael Cooper joins me to talk about a controversial issue going on right now in the political bubble called Ottawa. We re talking about Medical Assistance in Dying, otherwise known as MAID, was brought in in 2016 as a compassionate way to say goodbye to a loved one on their own terms. And now, we ve seen a number of troubling cases where people have qualified for MAID who aren t eligible. And what s even more concerning is that there doesn t seem to be any real follow-up.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome once again to The Blueprints. This is Canada's Conservative Podcast. I'm your
00:00:08.900 host, Jamie Spale, Member of Parliament for Halliburton. Cowortha likes Brock with new content
00:00:12.540 for you every single Tuesday, 1.30 p.m. Eastern Time. With that content, again, I know you've
00:00:17.300 heard it many times. We ask you to like, comment, subscribe, share this program. There's someone
00:00:21.460 in your social media network I know that would like to hear this message. Probably something
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00:00:29.040 you can tell them they can listen to it later on in platforms like CastBox, iTunes, Google
00:00:33.280 Play, Spotify, you name it, it is out there. I've got Michael Cooper, the Member of Parliament
00:00:37.960 for St. Albert Edmonton, to join me here today to talk about a pretty controversial issue
00:00:42.300 going on right now in the bubble called Ottawa. We're talking about medical assistance in dying,
00:00:48.380 otherwise known as MAID. It was brought in in 2016 as what some would say a compassionate
00:00:53.880 way to say goodbye to a loved one on their own terms. On the other side, you had people
00:00:58.300 saying it was a slippery slope. And now that we've had a vote in 2019 to change some of those
00:01:04.000 rules and more potential changes are coming. So Michael, thank you so much for coming on and
00:01:08.160 talking to us about that. Good to be with you, Jamie.
00:01:10.420 Well, we're seeing all over the news this conversation about the medical assistance in dying or MAID
00:01:17.180 program being offered to people that are potentially struggling with mental illness. That was something
00:01:24.040 that the whole legislation, when it was first brought in, of course it was amended a few years
00:01:29.120 later, was supposed to protect against. Well, that's right. And we have seen a number of troubling
00:01:35.440 cases where people have qualified for MAID who aren't eligible. And what's even more concerning
00:01:43.080 is that there doesn't seem to be any real follow-up. Existing safeguards that were supposedly
00:01:50.420 there to protect vulnerable people from falling through the cracks are not being properly enforced
00:01:57.200 and monitored. And instead of addressing that very real problem, the government, the liberals,
00:02:04.980 have been turning a blind eye to this issue. I mean, just as an example, when I brought up the case
00:02:11.420 of an Abbotsford British Columbia woman who accessed MAID under suspicious circumstances, suspicious
00:02:18.420 enough that an RCMP investigation was launched, and I posed a question to the Prime Minister,
00:02:24.200 he accused me of being wrapped up in ideology. It's just an illustration of the attitude of
00:02:30.880 this government. And meanwhile, their intent on expanding MAID significantly further to the
00:02:38.880 point now that we will have the most permissive MAID regime in the world. And the biggest change
00:02:45.460 in that regard comes in March of next year when the sunset clause with respect to mental illness
00:02:53.240 will expire and effective then persons suffering solely from an underlying mental health condition
00:03:01.240 will be eligible for MAID.
00:03:03.240 So MAID in 2016 had a number of safeguards. Some were taken away in 2019, 2020 with the witnesses,
00:03:12.520 the two witnesses, the second opinion, all that, the cooling off period, that kind of thing. And now
00:03:18.200 the Veterans Affairs Committee is looking into reports of multiple veterans being offered MAID for their
00:03:26.860 potential medical illness or just trying to access the benefits they're guaranteed.
00:03:31.640 It's really, really alarming. And it's not only alarming, it may be criminal because it is a criminal code offence
00:03:42.860 to counsel someone to commit suicide regardless of whether the person actually goes through with committing suicide.
00:03:50.860 And when reports first came out, the Minister of Veterans Affairs, Lawrence McCauley, and his deputy minister
00:03:59.860 came to the Veterans Affairs Committee. I was there. And they said that it was an isolated case, that they had
00:04:07.860 undertaken a thorough investigation and everyone could rest assured that it involved one employee and one case.
00:04:15.860 We're finding out now that there are multiple cases. It's not an isolated case. And it really begs the question,
00:04:24.860 how is this possible? How did this happen? And we need to get to the bottom of it.
00:04:31.860 Yeah, where's the compassion?
00:04:33.860 Where's the compassion? I mean, veterans who come to Veterans Affairs deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.
00:04:42.860 They deserve to be able to get access to supports. Many of these veterans who are seeking help suffer from physical or mental injuries arising from their service.
00:04:56.860 And instead of getting the help that they need to be offered deaf, to be told that maybe you should consider MAID.
00:05:03.860 I mean, think about the impact that that might have on someone who is struggling, who is going through a difficult time.
00:05:11.860 It could have a coercive impact on someone.
00:05:15.860 That could hurt your mental health. I know there's many stories, but the one in particular I'd like to bring up is the veteran, the Paralympian who was having trouble accessing a lift for her home.
00:05:28.860 And Veterans Affairs, basically, obviously there's the shortened version.
00:05:32.860 Basically, why don't you just consider medical assistance in dying rather than actually funding the lift for this veteran who is obviously capable of performing in society.
00:05:43.860 This just lacks common sense within the department itself.
00:05:48.860 And how, as an individual who is part of the public service, like you said, who is supposed to be treating veterans with compassion and respect,
00:05:56.860 how they can just go outside their lane like that and start to counsel people in this way?
00:06:02.860 Yeah, it just speaks to misplaced priorities.
00:06:07.860 Instead of offering MAID, the minister should be focused on improving services, dealing with the backlog, the huge backlog that exists at Veterans Affairs.
00:06:17.860 And as I emphasized at the beginning, it may be criminal what we're talking about here.
00:06:24.860 And I'm glad that the Minister of Veterans Affairs has referred at least some cases to the RCMP.
00:06:32.860 Any of these cases need to be referred to the RCMP and appropriate charges need to be laid if the evidence warrants it.
00:06:40.860 I think the conversation also goes to a larger conversation about government control over a larger way of life in Canadians, right?
00:06:50.860 I wanted to bring up this headline. I'll bring it up for you. I'm not texting or tweeting.
00:06:54.860 And this came up from 2017 from the CBC.
00:06:57.860 Headline, medically assisted deaths could save millions in health care spending, according to a report that was January 23rd, 2017.
00:07:05.860 So it goes from offering those who are experiencing a catastrophic illness where death is foreseeable in the near future,
00:07:17.860 to now kind of being normalized in circles in the media and in the left where they are saying,
00:07:24.860 well, you know what, if we offer this to more and more people, we could actually save money in our health care system.
00:07:29.860 That to me is absolutely incredible.
00:07:32.860 And it's almost like it's being normalized, this kind of conversation.
00:07:35.860 You're right. When MAID was first introduced, when Bill C-14, which was the legislative response to the Supreme Court's Carter decision, was passed,
00:07:46.860 MAID was generally thought to be something that was end of life when death was imminent and as a means to end suffering just before someone might otherwise pass away.
00:08:03.860 We're now seeing something that is very different than that.
00:08:08.860 Indeed, I would submit that calling it medical assistance in dying at this point is a misnomer,
00:08:15.860 because one of the safeguards that the Liberals removed about a year and a half ago was what I believe is the most important safeguard,
00:08:27.860 and that is that death be reasonably foreseeable.
00:08:30.860 As soon as you remove that requirement, it really opens the door.
00:08:36.860 Well, now we're also seeing those reports of people who are struggling to make ends meet.
00:08:40.860 Of course, inflation is at a 40 plus year high.
00:08:43.860 You know, Walkmans were still in style when we had this kind of inflation numbers.
00:08:47.860 The price of groceries are out of control.
00:08:50.860 Gasoline, home heating, everything is going up, I would say, directly linked to the policies of this government.
00:08:57.860 And now people are contemplating potentially using MAID as a way to just get away from the struggles in life.
00:09:04.860 And the government is almost turning a blind eye to all of this.
00:09:09.860 Well, they are.
00:09:10.860 And that's going to be even more problematic when the sunset clause expires in March in cases of mental illness.
00:09:20.860 You would think that on the question of mental illness, to expand MAID in that manner,
00:09:27.860 that considerable thought would be undertaken to determine whether this could be done safely,
00:09:34.860 that there would be meaningful consultations undertaken.
00:09:39.860 But none of those things took place.
00:09:42.860 Instead, what happened was Bill C-7, which removed the reasonable, death being reasonably foreseeable criteria,
00:09:52.860 that was introduced.
00:09:53.860 At the time, Minister Lametti was asked about expanding MAID in cases of mental illness.
00:09:58.860 He said, we're not ready.
00:09:59.860 There are inherent risks.
00:10:00.860 The bill goes over to the Senate, where a radical amendment to open the door to mental illness was passed.
00:10:09.860 And Lametti then all of a sudden flip-flogged.
00:10:12.860 He accepted the amendment and shut down debate and rammed the legislation through with that March of 2023 deadline, two years.
00:10:22.860 And in that regard, the government put the cart before the horse.
00:10:27.860 They made the decision to go ahead with it and then said, let's study it.
00:10:32.860 Well, upon studying it, including at our Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance and Dying,
00:10:39.860 which I'm the Vice Chair of, we have heard from experts, including leading psychiatrists,
00:10:46.860 who have said very clearly, this cannot be done safely.
00:10:51.860 And to that end, we issued in June an interim dissenting report calling on the government to, at the very least,
00:11:00.860 put a pause on this expansion until further study could be undertaken.
00:11:06.860 The government ignored that interim dissenting report.
00:11:10.860 But interestingly, two weeks ago, the Association of Chairs of Psychiatry, which include all of the 17 chairs of psychiatry at all medical schools in Canada,
00:11:25.860 issued a statement saying essentially what we said in our interim dissenting report, that we're not ready.
00:11:32.860 The government should extend the sunset clause, but they're up against the clock now that March is just around the corner.
00:11:41.860 Is it possible? I know I can imagine it would be quite divided within the Liberal caucus itself on to what to do next and where this leads.
00:11:51.860 Is it leading where it's supposed to or is it leading down a very dark passage?
00:11:55.860 Well, they don't have a lot of time to do it, and I don't think the minister appears amenable to that.
00:12:02.860 He's really taken, I would submit, an ideological approach as opposed to an evidence-based approach.
00:12:10.860 And when I speak about evidence with regards to, made in the context of soul mental illness,
00:12:17.860 one of the biggest problems that we heard from psychiatrists is that it's not possible to predict irremediability,
00:12:25.860 or at least very difficult. Now, what is irremediability?
00:12:28.860 Well, very simply, can someone go on to get better?
00:12:32.860 Right.
00:12:33.860 And if you can't predict that, then what that means is that persons who could go on to recover from their mental health issues,
00:12:44.860 who could go on to live happy and productive lives, could have their lives prematurely ended.
00:12:50.860 And that was one of the key things that the chairs of psychiatry raised in their statement two weeks ago.
00:13:00.860 And just going back to that conversation about government control and government,
00:13:04.860 if it controls too much, you can decide what you get, what you don't get.
00:13:08.860 Right. And going from that CBC headline and even starting in the middle of the pandemic,
00:13:13.860 you know, the conversations on the left and some in the media were,
00:13:17.860 well, if you're unvaccinated, then perhaps you don't get health care if you need to. Right.
00:13:21.860 Like this was a very, I think, dangerous conversation to take place,
00:13:25.860 especially the fact that they, those people doing it didn't seem to have any remorse about it,
00:13:30.860 that you could withhold a basic service that we rely on here in Canada to those that don't fit,
00:13:36.860 you know, fit into the description of, you know, was it the fringe minority, right?
00:13:44.860 Into the majority of the opinion. Right.
00:13:46.860 It was, to me, it was very shocking because I didn't think this would be even possible,
00:13:54.860 even liberal circles, to start pushing that narrative on people.
00:13:57.860 And it speaks to what kind of a society do we want to have, which is your point.
00:14:02.860 Yeah. And the kind of message that they're sending is that if you have a degenerative disability,
00:14:12.860 somehow maybe made as for you, as opposed to showing respect and love for the fact that people who live with degenerative disabilities
00:14:24.860 can be very happy and certainly deserving of support.
00:14:29.860 And instead, the government's response with Bill C-7, lifting the requirement that the death be reasonably foreseeable,
00:14:37.860 is to say, may be made as for you.
00:14:41.860 You're going to be uniquely singled out. Right.
00:14:43.860 Because you have a degenerative disability.
00:14:45.860 It raised international alarm, including from the UN Special Rapporteur on the rights of persons with disabilities,
00:14:52.860 who said that this government, this liberal government, is discriminating against persons with disabilities.
00:14:58.860 It raised opposition from virtually every disabilities rights organization in Canada,
00:15:06.860 who pleaded with the Liberals to stop, to show some respect, and who said very clearly,
00:15:16.860 this is a discriminatory policy.
00:15:19.860 And instead of listening, those calls fell on deaf ears.
00:15:24.860 And now it appears that the calls from leading mental health experts, leading psychiatrists,
00:15:31.860 the Association of Chairs of Psychiatry in Canada, they're pleased for the government to, at the very least,
00:15:38.860 put a hold on this next radical expansion it made with respect to soul mental illness,
00:15:43.860 is also about to fall on deaf ears.
00:15:45.860 So what happens next?
00:15:46.860 How can people who are concerned about this slippery slope that we've seemed to find ourselves on,
00:15:51.860 how can they help, how can they push back, or even have their voices heard?
00:15:56.860 I wish there was an easy answer because one of the things we have is a government that is sort of in control
00:16:06.860 in terms of setting the legislative agenda on this.
00:16:09.860 And we have a Minister of Justice who has repeatedly indicated that he has a specific approach,
00:16:19.860 a specific world view of how this should be done, and he hasn't responded to evidence-based opposition
00:16:29.860 to some of the measures that his government is about to embark upon with respect to mental illness,
00:16:35.860 and then going back to persons who have disabilities.
00:16:40.860 So I wish there was an easy answer, but I think the only thing for people to do, like on any issue,
00:16:46.860 is to be engaged, let their member of parliament know their concerns,
00:16:51.860 especially if it's a Liberal or NDP member,
00:16:56.860 and to voice their concerns using whatever platforms they have available.
00:17:04.860 Because I think part of the problem with this issue, in terms of where we're going,
00:17:10.860 which is on the wrong track, is that there isn't, I think to some degree, a level of awareness
00:17:17.860 of just how far things have gone and how radical MAID in Canada has become.
00:17:25.860 I think a lot of people still think that it is what it was initially understood to be,
00:17:31.860 something at a last resort at the very end of life, to give someone a few days less in which they might suffer.
00:17:41.860 Yeah. And we only have a few minutes left because, of course, question period is coming up.
00:17:46.860 As always, I have so many more questions.
00:17:49.860 I probably will round it out because we have gone way over time.
00:17:53.860 I always give the guests the last word. How you want to close it up is up to you.
00:17:58.860 You know, potentially you can talk about, you know, we mentioned the next steps,
00:18:03.860 the sunset clause, the dangerous precedent that's about to be set.
00:18:07.860 But also, maybe you can highlight, it's up to you, it's your time,
00:18:10.860 but also what kind of country do you want Canada to be?
00:18:13.860 Yeah. Well, I think that we need to respect life and the dignity of people
00:18:22.860 and to offer them care and support and to be compassionate.
00:18:29.860 And I think what we're seeing is the opposite of that.
00:18:34.860 And, you know, in terms of where this is going,
00:18:38.860 we have mental illness in March of 2023.
00:18:43.860 But also on the government's,
00:18:48.860 part of what the government is focused on is expanding medical assistance
00:18:53.860 and dying in cases of so-called mature minors.
00:18:59.860 Yeah, we didn't even get to that.
00:19:01.860 We didn't even get to that.
00:19:02.860 We didn't even talk about that.
00:19:03.860 Yeah, so it's, looking forward, I think right now the outlook is not a good one.
00:19:15.860 Yeah, I agree with you on that.
00:19:16.860 I wish I could be a little more optimistic, but unfortunately not.
00:19:20.860 Well, we will have you back on.
00:19:22.860 Michael Cooper, Member of Parliament for St. Albert Edmonton,
00:19:24.860 to talk about the other side of it.
00:19:26.860 We didn't even get to talk about that, the minor issue
00:19:28.860 and this being offered to potentially minors at this point.
00:19:31.860 But we thank him for his time.
00:19:33.860 We thank you for your time.
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