The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - The Blueprint： The Communist Party of China and Trudeau Liberals explained with MP Chong

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome once again to The Blueprints. This is Canada's Conservative Podcast. I'm your

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00:00:30.180 download it, listen to it on platforms like CastBox, iTunes, Google Play and Spotify. You name it, it is

00:00:34.360 out there. Got a great show lined up for you today. We're going to talk about foreign interference in 0.97

00:00:38.840 our elections. We're bringing on Michael Chong, a good friend of the show, Member of Parliament for

00:00:42.660 Wellington, Halton Hills, also the critic for Foreign Affairs. Thank you so much for joining us.

00:00:46.900 Great to be here. We have an important vote this afternoon. We thought it was going to be a

00:00:50.120 confidence vote, possibly triggering an election. Turns out, not the case. Prime Minister has come

00:00:56.320 out earlier today and told us otherwise. That's right. He backed off his threat of making this a

00:01:02.500 confidence vote. Clearly there was a backroom deal between the Liberals and New Democrats on this.

00:01:09.720 So what's going to happen is the Liberals and the New Democrats are going to vote against our motion.

00:01:14.480 And instead, the bone that the Prime Minister threw to the NDP was to agree to having Katie Telford

00:01:24.300 appear in front of the Proceduring House Affairs Committee to testify about Beijing's foreign

00:01:29.120 interference in our democracy. Yeah, so I think this is a big step. I think the NDP was feeling the

00:01:34.760 heat, I think, from their own members, from people in their riding saying, I think this is a bit too far

00:01:40.480 if you back the government on this. But the question is also, we'll get into what is foreign

00:01:46.620 interference, but I guess we can talk about, we need to know, I think, right away what the government

00:01:53.020 knew, when it knew, did it take any steps, like what did they do? And I think Katie Telford, being the

00:01:59.000 chief of staff, being involved in the campaigns, would have access to some of the information and

00:02:03.540 some of the answers we're looking for. Well, that's exactly it. What's clear is that

00:02:08.520 Beijing has been meddling in our democracy. And we know that because public servants have leaked

00:02:15.000 this information to investigative journalists who have reported on it. We didn't find this out from

00:02:21.060 the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister, frankly, has been trying to bury this story and avoid answering

00:02:27.740 any questions about what happened. Clearly, something happened. So we need to know, what did the Prime

00:02:32.720 Minister know? When did he know it? And what did he do about it? Those are really the questions

00:02:38.500 at the heart of the matter. And I know you've asked this a few times in question period.

00:02:43.280 Who did it benefit, right? It turns out, at least from the information coming out right now,

00:02:49.680 that it seemed to benefit the Liberals in some way. Obviously, it wouldn't have changed the results

00:02:55.580 of the election. It still would be a Liberal minority if he base it on the seats that may or may not have

00:03:00.460 been won if the interference had happened or not. But at the same time, if the Prime Minister took that

00:03:07.800 information, did nothing about it because he potentially knew it would benefit him, that's

00:03:12.840 pretty serious. I think Canadians should have an answer to that.

00:03:15.680 Yeah. Clearly, Beijing's meddling in the 2019 and 2021 elections was for the benefit of the Liberal

00:03:22.100 Party. That's clear. Reports in the Globe and Mail and Global News have highlighted that the Consul

00:03:28.140 General in Vancouver actually said that explicitly.

00:03:32.140 Boasted about it. Boasted about it. The question is whether or not the Prime Minister turned a blind

00:03:36.800 eye to this foreign interference to benefit his own party, or if there was another reason why he

00:03:43.820 didn't make public this foreign interference, why he didn't take other measures on this foreign

00:03:48.240 interference. We don't know because they're not answering questions, which just leads to further

00:03:52.420 suspicion about the Prime Minister's motives with respect to this foreign interference.

00:03:56.940 So we keep talking about foreign interference. What is it in this case? What are we talking about?

00:04:00.260 So foreign interference is defined under law as malevolent activities by a foreign state or its

00:04:09.320 proxies to meddle in Canadian society. Things like interfering in our elections, threatening and

00:04:18.740 intimidating Canadian citizens on Canadian soil, interfering in our research and development 0.97

00:04:26.640 activities. All those are defined as foreign interference. Foreign interference in the 2019 and 2021 campaigns

00:04:35.060 came in the form of Beijing allegedly funneling money into candidates and parties during those

00:04:44.840 campaigns. It came in the form of Beijing allegedly ordering its international students at universities like

00:04:53.700 the University of Toronto to hijack a nomination meeting and vote for a particular candidate that they

00:05:00.480 thought was in favor of Beijing. It came in the form of disinformation campaigns that Beijing spread on social

00:05:09.600 media, particularly Chinese language social media during the 2021 campaign. So all those things,

00:05:15.920 interfering in nominations, illegally and covertly funneling money into the political process,

00:05:21.500 and spreading disinformation are all examples of foreign interference. Foreign interference is separate and

00:05:27.020 distinct from espionage. Espionage is primarily targeted at theft. It's the stealing of intellectual

00:05:35.600 property, the stealing of information for the benefit of another country. Foreign interference is

00:05:44.600 different than that. It takes the form of various activities I've just outlined.

00:05:48.080 And we talked about the last time you're on the show about the Beijing's police departments in

00:05:54.180 Canada. Another example of foreign interference, right? So Safeguard Defenders, which is a Spanish-based 0.94

00:05:59.220 non-governmental human rights organization, has highlighted that there are over a hundred police

00:06:07.400 stations, most all of them illegal police stations, that have been established in dozens of countries around

00:06:14.000 the world. Five of them have been established here in Canada illegally. And those were reported by

00:06:20.800 Safeguard Defenders, this NGO, several months ago. Three of them were in the GTA, one of them in the

00:06:27.120 Vancouver Lower Mainland, and one in Montreal. And so yet that's another example of Beijing's intimidation, 0.62

00:06:35.140 harassment of Canadian citizens here, the establishment of these illegal police stations.

00:06:40.120 I remember shortly after the 2021 election, and Kenny Chu, or I guess the Member of Parliament from

00:06:47.080 2019 to 21, he had rang the bell almost immediately as to what was going on in this suburban, or I guess

00:06:54.960 Richmond, Stevenson area of British Columbia, right near Vancouver. He was ringing the bell early on,

00:07:01.200 like he could feel it on the ground that something wasn't right.

00:07:03.960 Yeah, he was ringing the alarm bells about this during the 2020 election. He publicly indicated he

00:07:10.420 was overwhelmed by disinformation about his private members bill that was to establish a foreign agent

00:07:17.660 registry. He wasn't quite sure where the disinformation was coming from. But the Government of Canada knew,

00:07:24.060 and it failed to make the public aware of this disinformation. The Government of Canada has within

00:07:29.820 its bureaucracy, a unit called the G7 Rapid Response, Rapid Monitoring Mechanism, or Rapid Response

00:07:38.700 Mechanism. I can't remember exactly what the title of it is. But the G7, this G7 group within Global

00:07:46.420 Affairs Canada, which is our Foreign Affairs Department, was established under a G7 agreement amongst our G7

00:07:52.220 allies to counter Russian and Chinese disinformation during and between elections. And this group was

00:08:03.060 monitoring the disinformation that was targeting Kenny Chu, disinformation that was coming from the Chinese

00:08:10.820 Communist Party in Beijing. And they failed to go public with it. And I think that was a big failure on

00:08:18.600 part of this task force, this monitoring mechanism that was established, and a big failure of the Trudeau

00:08:25.080 government. And again, questions are being asked, why wasn't this information made public, so that the

00:08:30.540 voters of Richmond, Steveston, East could make an informed decision when they went to the ballot box.

00:08:35.900 So our motion being voted on later today, in an hour or so, hour and a half, is talking about having Katie

00:08:43.300 Delford, the Chiefs of Staff, appear at the Ethics Committee. Of course, the Ethics Committee is chaired by a

00:08:47.380 Conservative. The deal, it looks like being struck, she's going to appear at the PROC Committee, Procedure and

00:08:53.220 House Affairs Committee, chaired by a Liberal. But I think the point, all of this, and whether it's David

00:08:58.280 Johnston getting involved, it's about getting, we can't wait any longer. Because as you said, just a few

00:09:04.980 minutes off air, if we go to an election, which could have happened in about an hour, potentially, we

00:09:10.920 need to have these answers before we start knocking on doors, before we start accepting donations or

00:09:14.660 seeing volunteers put up their hand that want to get involved. We need to know what's going on.

00:09:19.180 We absolutely need to know what's going on now. Not a year from now, not two years from now, we need to

00:09:25.460 know now. We can't wait for the results of a public inquiry that could take a year or more to come to

00:09:31.060 its conclusions. We need to know now. And the reason is simple. We could be in a federal election as soon

00:09:36.020 as, at any time, more likely six to 12 months from now. So we need to know before that federal

00:09:42.180 election exactly what is going on with Beijing's meddling in our nomination races, in our local

00:09:49.460 election campaigns, in campaign financing, so that we can take measures to protect ourselves.

00:09:54.740 CESIS has said clearly in its written evidence, as well as otherwise, that Beijing's foreign

00:10:03.940 interference is a serious national threat to Canada. They've said it's a serious threat to our economy,

00:10:11.860 to social cohesion, to long-term prosperity, and to Canadians' fundamental rights and freedoms.

00:10:18.020 They don't use these words lightly. And they've also said that Beijing is the primary actor behind

00:10:24.500 this threat. But the government hasn't been forthcoming about what is going on. And CESIS has

00:10:30.580 said that it's often difficult to translate this intelligence about Beijing's meddling into evidence

00:10:36.740 for prosecution that leads to arrests and a trial and a conviction of those involved. Because often it

00:10:43.620 relies on tradecraft that they don't want to make public. Often the evidence, the intelligence evidence,

00:10:49.460 doesn't rise to the bar of a criminal prosecution. And so they've advised the government that the

00:10:55.620 other tool the government can use when they can't use a prosecution is sunlight and transparency. To

00:11:02.580 go public with the details of foreign interference threat activities, such as meddling in nominations

00:11:09.620 or in campaign financing, so that the public is informed about these threat activities. And so that

00:11:16.820 Canadians and parties and candidates can make an informed decision about how to protect themselves.

00:11:21.540 But the government has been an information desert. They're refusing to release any information.

00:11:27.700 They're refusing even to let people testify until we put immense pressure on them, such as Katie

00:11:32.820 Telford. That's got to end. We're a first world democracy. And if we're going to protect our democracy,

00:11:37.700 we have the government has to release a lot more information and trust of the public can make an

00:11:42.180 informed decision. Well, we still don't know about those two scientists that were escorted out of the

00:11:45.540 Winnipeg lab. We still have no idea, despite Parliament saying, yes, we'd like to know.

00:11:49.460 Exactly. It's been over two years now since we demanded documents relating to national security

00:11:56.420 breaches at the government's top level four lab in Winnipeg. A lab that had admitted PLA, 0.69

00:12:03.620 People's Liberation Army scientists, into the lab against the rules. A lab that had undertaken public

00:12:12.340 research whose patents were then registered in the People's Republic of China. A lab that had so many

00:12:20.100 other national security breaches that it warranted further investigation and accountability. But again,

00:12:26.740 the government refused to release information pertaining to this. And so here we are two years

00:12:31.860 later without any answers. And they are doing with Beijing's meddling in our democracy exactly what

00:12:38.340 they did with the Winnipeg lab documents. That's actually right. Yes, bang on. They are burying the

00:12:43.860 truth in process. So two years ago with the Winnipeg lab documents, they violated four orders of the House

00:12:50.340 of Commons and its committee to produce the documents for Parliament. And they instead hid behind process.

00:12:55.940 They said, oh, it should go to ENSECOP, which is this government security committee. Then they said

00:13:03.940 that it should go to a special committee made up of MPs that's under the control of the government. And so

00:13:13.460 that process has led to no answers two years later. They're proposing the same hide behind process

00:13:19.700 approach today with Beijing's meddling in our democracy. You know, they first said it should be,

00:13:24.820 they referred it to two government committees. One is ENSECOP and the other is ENSECOP,

00:13:28.900 and they've announced the appointment of a special rapporteur that is going to

00:13:32.340 at some point recommend or not recommend a public inquiry. So again, they're hiding behind process,

00:13:37.540 and I'm not confident that that's going to lead to any answers. Like I said, we need answers now.

00:13:42.180 I need to prepare for the next election campaign. Absolutely. I need to know which donors,

00:13:46.660 which individuals are involved with these clandestine and illegal funding operations so I can make sure that we

00:13:53.700 ban them, put them on the ban donor list. I need to know what individuals are

00:13:57.620 working on behalf of the United Front Work Department of the Communist Party in Beijing.

00:14:01.460 So I can say to my campaign manager, these individuals are not allowed on our campaign.

00:14:06.180 They're not going to have anything to do with our campaign. I need to protect myself.

00:14:09.940 But if I don't know who's involved, I can't protect myself.

00:14:12.500 Right. Absolutely. So how...

00:14:15.540 I know we're going to really set you up with this question here.

00:14:17.700 But the obvious question is, the Prime Minister in 2015, sunlight's the best disinfected, blah, blah, blah.

00:14:26.660 Nothing says, I have nothing to hide, like blocking Parliament from doing its job. So what could they

00:14:34.100 possibly have to hide? Could it be they've known about something going on for so long that they've just

00:14:40.180 dragged their feet on this? It must be bad. Just looking in, it must be bad.

00:14:48.100 Why else would they, why would they keep stonewalling over and over again? 0.58

00:14:52.500 Well, that's a good question. And the more they stall, the more it raises suspicions that they've

00:14:58.100 got something to hide. And look, revealing foreign interference threat activities is a best practice 0.88

00:15:06.340 of our closest allies. I'll give you one example. A year ago in the United Kingdom, MI5,

00:15:13.060 their national security agency went public about a PRC agent that was operating in the United Kingdom

00:15:21.060 Parliament. Her name was Christine Lee. So MI5 went to the Speaker of the House of Commons and said to

00:15:28.660 the Speaker that this individual was a national security threat, that she was involved in foreign

00:15:34.340 interference operations, that she was representing, that she was acting as an agent of Beijing in the UK

00:15:39.780 Parliament, gathering information and trying to influence UK politics. The Speaker subsequently sent

00:15:46.740 an email to all some 630 MPs of the House of Commons, identifying this individual as a national security threat,

00:15:55.540 as MI5 had advised. MPs took action. They cut off contact with her. They put her on the banned donor

00:16:04.260 lists. They didn't allow her any more access to their offices. And as a result, the integrity of the UK

00:16:12.100 Parliament was protected. That's an example of how sunlight and transparency is a way to counter

00:16:18.340 Beijing's meddling in our democracy. In this particular instance, MI5 concluded that they didn't

00:16:24.740 have evidence that rose to the level of a criminal prosecution in order to arrest and prosecute her.

00:16:31.940 And so that's why they use sunlight and transparency to protect the UK democracy. We need to do the same

00:16:37.860 kinds of things here. But this government, despite its professed belief in sunlight and transparency,

00:16:44.180 despite coming to office saying that it was going to rely on experts' evidence, has done neither.

00:16:50.260 They're not releasing any information and they're not relying on the advice of their security agencies

00:16:55.620 to release information about foreign interference threat activities to protect the integrity of our

00:17:01.620 democracy. Another example we talked about too, and something you've been calling for in the House,

00:17:05.780 you and others, is something like Australia did. They kind of noticed there was some interference or

00:17:14.100 some influence, I guess, from Beijing. And they took steps to quickly try to put a stop to it as best

00:17:19.940 they could. And so what else can we do? What can Canada do? What would you, if you were a minister

00:17:26.100 in a Poliev government, what would we be doing right now?

00:17:29.940 Well, that's a great question. And I think it highlights a fundamental point, which is that

00:17:34.420 there isn't any one tool the government should be using to counter

00:17:39.220 foreign interference threat activities coming from authoritarian governments like those, like that of Beijing.

00:17:45.620 The government has to employ a suite of tools. So one tool is to go public with

00:17:52.180 foreign interference threat activities so that the public is informed of what is exactly going on.

00:17:56.260 So parties and candidates can make informed decisions about how to protect themselves.

00:17:59.780 The other thing the government should be doing is introducing and implementing a foreign agent registry

00:18:05.860 so that those individuals who are working for authoritarian governments, like the People's Republic of

00:18:12.500 China, have their contracts made public. And so that people are aware of

00:18:17.860 who Beijing is paying and how much and who's involved. The other thing the government should

00:18:25.460 be doing is countering disinformation and making the public aware of disinformation as it takes place,

00:18:30.820 particularly during election campaigns when it was taking place targeting candidates like Kenny

00:18:36.500 Chu in the last election. The government should also be putting in place other measures,

00:18:42.180 measures that other countries have already implemented, such as protecting

00:18:48.420 sensitive research and development at our top level universities. CSIS, for example, has identified

00:18:55.620 five areas of sensitive areas of research that the PRC is trying to steal and is threatening international

00:19:06.420 security. The five areas are 5G telecommunications, clean tech, biopharma, artificial intelligence,

00:19:12.500 and quantum computing. These are areas where the government of Canada should ban any research

00:19:18.820 funding in partnership with entities in the PRC. And it's something that hasn't done. There's so many

00:19:26.260 other things the government should be doing. It should be putting more resources into law enforcement,

00:19:30.660 to prosecute espionage, to prosecute porn interference. So all of those things need to be done.

00:19:36.900 Unfortunately, the current government is frankly asleep at the switch on all of these things,

00:19:41.940 which is why it's become such a serious threat and concern to the country.

00:19:49.140 Well, look how long it took the government to say no to Huawei and to our telecommunications

00:19:53.940 system. How many years did we as the opposition raise that in question period over and over and over

00:19:59.620 again? Despite countries like the UK and many others of our Five Eyes partners saying no to Huawei?

00:20:05.220 Absolutely. Frankly, they're asleep at the switch. And I now think that the chickens are coming home to

00:20:11.380 roost. And I think Canadians are becoming increasingly concerned. I think it's the reason why, frankly,

00:20:19.620 public servants have leaked top secret documents to investigative journalists to be published in

00:20:27.300 reputable publications like the Global Mail and Global News. Because I think the experts are so

00:20:33.700 concerned about the threat to this country's security, about the threat to this country's safety, that they 1.00

00:20:41.540 thought they had no other option because the government was simply ignoring their advice.

00:20:45.860 Michael, we've gone way over time. I know you have questions today in question period. But as you know,

00:20:50.100 I always give the guests the last word. So the floor is the rest.

00:20:52.580 Well, I'll go back to what the experts in the Canadian Security Intelligence Service have told us,

00:21:01.380 that Beijing's meddling in our democracy is a serious national threat. It threatens our economy, 0.86

00:21:07.780 social cohesion, long-term prosperity, and Canadians' fundamental rights and freedoms. And that the

00:21:15.540 tool, the government of Canada, that the Prime Minister should be using to counter this foreign 0.99

00:21:20.100 interference is sunlight and transparency by going public with the details of Beijing's meddling in

00:21:26.740 our nominations, in campaign financing, in our elections, in order to equip Canadians and political

00:21:32.900 parties and candidates with the information they need to make informed decisions about how to protect

00:21:37.780 themselves. Something the government has not done and something that we are going to continue to

00:21:42.740 hound the government on until they come forward with answers. Absolutely. You're doing a great job.

00:21:47.140 Michael Chong, Member of Parliament for Wellington Halton Hills, also the critic for foreign affairs. We

00:21:52.340 appreciate his time. We appreciate your time as well. This is great information. Please like, comment,

00:21:56.660 subscribe, share this program. This word needs to get out. This information needs to get to eyeballs and

00:22:02.420 ears. Please do that if you can't listen or watch it right now. Download it on platforms like CastBox,

00:22:08.020 iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, you name it. It is out there. As I mentioned, new content for you every

00:22:12.340 single Tuesday, 1.30 p.m. Eastern Time. Until then, remember low taxes, less governments, more freedom.

00:22:17.620 That's The Blueprint.

The Blueprint: Canada's Conservative Podcast - March 21, 2023

The Blueprint： The Communist Party of China and Trudeau Liberals explained with MP Chong

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