00:01:35.380And despite everything, this was such a hugely important moment in Canadian politics, for media, for the political establishment, and also, I think, in Canadian history.
00:01:45.720So I was glad to be able to be a small part of it for the True North team.
00:01:49.380Well, you helped so many people get a better context of what was happening.
00:01:54.000And part of the reason that we wanted you to be there was so that we could all bear witness to the abuses that were happening in the name of our government and in an effort to, again, squash a protest that was peaceful, that had good intentions, that people that were unarmed.
00:02:09.640So, Andrew, can you walk us through, maybe set the scene a little bit for folks who might not be too familiar with Ottawa or who haven't seen some of the footage yet?
00:02:20.740You know, you've gone to Ottawa many times.
00:02:22.240What were some of the major differences between a normal visit to Ottawa and a visit to Ottawa this past weekend?
00:02:28.580Well, there were people there this past weekend.
00:02:30.680I mean, that was the great irony of it, is that when everyone was talking about Spark Street, which is the pedestrian thoroughfare in Ottawa and all the businesses shutting down, it's like on a lot of weekends, I think that's how it's felt most times I've been in Ottawa.
00:02:44.120So in this particular case, there was a bustle that just isn't normal in Ottawa on weekends.
00:02:50.120That's always been one of my frustrations with the city.
00:02:52.400And that's been pretty consistent since the very beginning of the protests' arrival in Ottawa, is that there's always been activity, the infamous sights and scenes of this, like the bouncy castles and the hot tubs and the bales of hay and all of that.
00:03:08.120As much as these were novelties to a lot of people, they really did capture what had been the vibe leading up to this past weekend.
00:03:14.660Now, obviously, it was fairly different this past weekend because the law enforcement action was carrying forward.
00:03:20.800But I should say, even on Friday, which was the day that I was pepper sprayed by police in front of the Shadow Laurier, just a couple of blocks west on Parliament Hill, there was still dancing, there was still music, they still had a DJ.
00:03:34.900So it was even as that was happening and as this was coming to an end, it was still like that sort of party at the end of the world atmosphere where people were still doing what they had done for several weeks prior.
00:03:45.540One of the things I saw that you tweeted was that you started to see tow trucks come in and prior to that, tow trucks had basically refused to get involved.
00:03:55.620They didn't want to be towing some of their buddies or some people that they knew in the convoy.
00:03:59.220Maybe they supported it or maybe they were just worried about retribution.
00:04:04.040There were also, we know, police checks and they sort of the police did their best to basically isolate part of the city, coordinate it off.
00:04:11.320You couldn't get in unless you had a valid reason.
00:04:15.120Can you speak to sort of the police presence and the militarization of Ottawa in the lead up to clearing the protests on Parliament Hill?
00:04:25.960Yeah, and an interesting story of this.
00:04:28.100And I had actually been just by virtue of where I was standing, was able to get a pretty good view of this.
00:04:34.540So before the police action had commenced, I had just arrived in Ottawa, I checked into the hotel and then was out just seeing how the situation was.
00:04:42.960And I was at that main stage area, which was on the back of a flat or on the flatbed of a truck right in front of Parliament Hill.
00:04:50.000And just as I arrived, I noticed that police were lining up.
00:04:53.520Dozens of police officers were lining up on Wellington Street in front of this.
00:04:57.700And I wondered if this was them starting to move right now.
00:05:02.160And what had actually happened was they had been called by convoy supporters, by protesters, to deal with someone who was being very disruptive, someone who had allegedly spat on people that were there.
00:05:17.540And police moved in and in a very methodical fashion, they built a perimeter around this guy.
00:05:23.720He was quite resistant to that, but they ended up carrying him to the police car.
00:05:27.360And then they marched single file out and people were thanking them and applauding them.
00:05:31.000So police were in, police were moving around, police were walking around, there was no issue.
00:05:36.560When it became an issue was on Friday, when the police presence switched to being that front line that was pushing protesters further and further back and ultimately squeezing them.
00:05:48.000So they had no choice but to get off Wellington Street.
00:05:50.860But before then, they were there, they were around, but they actually had a pretty solid working relationship, the liaison officers, with some of the convoy organizers and protesters.
00:06:03.000Well, that's sort of what we've seen over the past month is that there's camaraderie.
00:06:06.300There's been a lot of sort of TikTok videos and Instagram videos of police sort of saying, look, we wish we could be out there with you.
00:06:43.320He said, I live in the center of Ottawa.
00:06:45.720Police blockades everywhere are 100 times more disruptive than the Freedom Convoy ever was.
00:06:50.780We had to argue with police and show ID to simply go home after walking our dog with my wife.
00:06:57.200So it seems to me that that, well, at least according to this account, that the police really moved in and made it difficult for residents to get around.
00:07:07.740Was that was that the experience that you had as well?
00:07:10.300Oh, 100 percent, especially by Sunday, because by Sunday, police had moved all of the protesters out of the areas where they had been demonstrating.
00:07:19.440Most of the really, if I can call them violence or violent incidents or the flare-ups, whatever term you prefer, had happened on Friday and then Saturday.
00:07:28.800So by Sunday, police had set up a fence that was around several city blocks.
00:07:34.060They also had very hard perimeters for access.
00:07:37.640And one thing that we saw, and there were some videos of this that were very, very disturbing, police harassing individuals walking down streets that were open.
00:07:46.060Just one woman who wanted to get a coffee and they found out she was from Alberta and said, we're going to arrest you unless you turn around.
00:07:52.880And the officer in the video you see tries to grab her phone because he doesn't like that she is filming.
00:07:58.240So I was able to, as media, and we can talk about just how this process unfolded if you'd like, but I was able to get into the Uber secure zone on Sunday.
00:08:09.200And it was interesting that to do that, I had to go through, I think it was two or three checkpoints, really.
00:08:15.020And then when you get onto Wellington Street, the street that had been filled with trucks was now filled with police vehicles, but it actually looked almost identical to how it did a week prior.
00:08:24.360Well, it's really interesting. And I hear the city council enjoyed having a pedestrian walkway so much.
00:08:31.480They're now considering debating keeping that as pedestrian only, which is kind of silly because that, again, was one of the main justifications for clearing the protest.
00:08:39.920And enacting the Emergencies Act was that it was blocking businesses and it was preventing people from being able to go about their lives.
00:08:46.820And it's funny how the police stepped in. Well, let's talk a little bit about you as a journalist on the ground, because I know there was a lot of journalists, both legacy media and independent.
00:08:56.740My observation is that the independent journalists were much more willing to sort of get close to the front lines, get in on the action.
00:09:03.180They wanted to really show the audience what it was like to be on the ground and that the legacy media were there as well.
00:09:10.400Maybe a bit more removed doing doing their, you know, television hits and their reports from afar.
00:09:17.060Why don't you tell us a little bit about the journalists that were there and the sort of differing experiences that you had?
00:09:23.940I would say it's not entirely accurate to say that all of the legacy media folks were doing their reporting from afar.
00:09:30.640There were a number of camera crews that I saw that were pretty close to the front line.
00:09:35.100And one challenge, though, that I'd note in my experience there compared to theirs is that they had very large units, whereas they would have an on-camera reporter, a videographer, a producer whose job it was to just pull the videographer so that they could walk backwards while the producer is looking at where things are.
00:09:54.400And then they would also have someone else.
00:09:56.820And then in many cases, in fact, almost all, they would have a private security guard that was with them.
00:10:02.040So you'd have four or five person crews which were able to move relatively seamlessly.
00:10:08.480And also, I think to say in, you know, big flashing letters in a way, you know, we're media.
00:10:19.580We didn't have the giant mammoth-sized camera.
00:10:22.100We were just there in some cases, independent journalists were just there with their phones.
00:10:26.400In some cases, they had a bit more sophisticated setups.
00:10:29.540But the reality is it was a lot easier to beat up an independent journalist if that's what you wanted to do because you could claim, well, I didn't know that's what they were doing.
00:10:37.660I didn't know they were there in that capacity.
00:10:40.240So, I mean, for example, when we saw that video of Alexa Lavoie from Rebel, she was very close to the front line when she got hit with some canister on her leg.
00:10:49.900For my part, I had actually made sure to have a bit of distance between myself and the front line when I ended up getting pepper sprayed.
00:10:56.860And it still didn't really save me as we saw.
00:11:01.900But I would say that for the journalists covering this on the ground getting in there, there were a lot of incidents that really need to be brought up.
00:11:12.240There was one pool photographer or a wire photographer, I can't remember which agency, who was arrested and zip-tied and had to get his editor to help have police release him.
00:11:22.600And you have to wonder if that had happened to an independent journalist, would police have been receptive to the call from you as they were from someone at some fancy New York agency?
00:11:31.860And other journalists as well threatened with arrest.
00:11:34.180I was, at one point, threatened with arrest for walking down a street that I had a legal right to walk down.
00:11:39.720So these are significant challenges that were facing journalists on the ground.
00:11:44.160It wasn't just the incidents you saw, but a lot of stuff that you didn't see as well.
00:11:48.820Well, so I want to talk a little bit about this because the Ottawa police were explicitly saying, even if you're a journalist, you have to get out of there.
00:11:55.840We saw them handing out notices earlier in the week.
00:11:58.200And they handed one directly to a woman who was setting up a camera, obviously a journalist.
00:12:03.140We have the Ottawa police who were live tweeting.
00:12:05.160You can comment on this before as well, because I've never seen it before, where the police were sort of refusing to reply to questions from the media.
00:12:12.660I know because I put in several questions over the weekend.
00:12:15.780They weren't replying to calls, emails, tweets.
00:12:18.500They were just sort of putting out their own explanation of what was going on.
00:12:22.220And one of the things they said, so here on February 18th, they tweeted, all media who are attending the area, please keep a distance and stay out of police operations for your safety.
00:12:32.480Anyone found within areas undergoing enforcement may be subject to arrest.
00:12:37.360There will be a media availability later today on Elgin Street.
00:12:41.040And so they're basically saying, don't come.
00:12:46.680Just come to our media availability and we'll give you your talking points later on.
00:12:50.780We'll tell you what you can report and how you can report it.
00:12:54.220Can you comment on this idea that the police suddenly have the power to arrest journalists who are just trying to tell a story to Canadians?
00:13:02.560Yeah, and I'm glad you brought this up because this was something I was trying to sound the alarm about even before that tweet from them.
00:14:29.960And even the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, Andrew, jumped in and they wrote this.
00:14:34.200Warning journalists about safety risks in the protest zone is reasonable.
00:14:38.480Threatening them with arrest for doing their jobs is not.
00:14:41.400Time and time again, Canadian courts have ruled against exclusion zones and other limits on the press.
00:14:46.940So this whole idea, Andrew, that we had like a red zone in Ottawa,
00:14:50.200that video of the police officers harassing a woman from Ontario for the crime of wanting to get a coffee or walking down the street,
00:14:56.520brutality against journalists like yourself and Alexa over at The Rebel.
00:15:00.960The instance I hadn't heard of that, but of a photojournalist getting arrested, zip ties, wild.
00:15:05.720It doesn't seem like that aligns with the rule of law in Canada.
00:15:11.260Even just the idea, Andrew, that the Emergency Act was supposed to be debated on Friday
00:15:15.560and they canceled that because of the police activities that were caused from the Emergency Act being enacted.
00:15:20.800I mean, can you speak to I know you're not a lawyer, but can you speak to the legality of like I mean,
00:15:27.000there's such a seems like such a separation of the Canadian Civil Liberties Organization,
00:15:30.060which is a left wing progressive organization is calling out the abuse against the rule of law in this country.
00:15:37.360And it seems like there's a total disconnect between the letter of the law and that, you know,
00:15:41.820the activities and the actions of police on the ground in Ottawa.
00:15:45.500Like, how did a situation happen? What do you make of it?
00:15:48.960Yeah. And just on the note of the canceling the session of Parliament,
00:15:51.840this is where geography is a bit interesting and tells a rather unique story here.
00:15:56.840Because on Friday, which was when they decided to cancel the House of Commons sitting,
00:16:01.860which was, again, focused specifically on debating the Emergency Act,
00:16:06.080the police action was several blocks east of Parliament Hill.
00:16:09.160The police action was in front of the Chateau Laurier.
00:16:11.180And it was on Saturday when the police action was right in front of Parliament Hill and parliamentarians were back in.
00:16:17.820They were back there when at that point they had to lock the doors and institute a lockdown and say no one could go in or out of Parliament Hill.
00:16:25.160So once the MPs and their staff went in in the morning, they locked up and that was that.
00:16:29.560And I think that a lot of that was due to the backlash from canceling Friday when it would have been much safer.
00:16:34.540Because on Friday, that area right in front of Parliament Hill was completely open.
00:16:38.340People were passing through, police were passing through, politicians, protesters, anyone could go through.
00:16:44.380So the Emergencies Act, I read, I went, like I said earlier, right to the source when that came out,
00:16:49.400because I knew that this was going to be something I wanted to cover.
00:16:53.240Am I going to encounter issues trying to get from the airport to downtown?
00:16:57.840Now, fortunately, I got in before they set up the perimeter they ended up setting up.
00:17:02.320But the challenge is that your rights, when they exist on a piece of paper, it's all well and good and they may help you in court down the road.
00:17:10.400But on the ground, you're relying on a police officer's interpretation of the law, a police officer's interpretation of the orders they've received,
00:17:18.740and the person who gave those orders as interpretation of the law.
00:17:22.900So there are a lot of areas there where what you have a right to do can break down and deny you that right and put you in harm's way in some cases,
00:17:31.940as we saw, whether it's pepper spray or tear gas or arrest, and certainly put your rights in jeopardy when it comes to you trying to do your job.
00:17:39.780Well, I think that's why it's so important that so many people are now retaining lawyers and going back to the letter of the law,
00:17:47.440because you're right, it is based on interpretation on the ground.
00:17:50.780You know, these police officers are obviously under a great deal of stress with the orders that they're being told and the crowd in front of them.