The Candice Malcolm Show - Canada just banned clinical therapy for children thinking of transitioning

00:00:00.000 Parliament unanimously passed Bill C-4, the supposed ban on conversion therapy,

00:00:05.700 but this clunky bill with broad definitions not only hampers free speech,

00:00:10.180 it could also dangerously enable a radical ideology that tells children that gender does not exist.

00:00:15.960 I'm Candice Malcolm and this is The Candice Malcolm Show.

00:00:22.720 Hi everyone, thank you so much for tuning into the podcast.

00:00:25.760 Now as you know from listening to the show and tuning into True North,

00:00:28.540 I wasn't very happy to see all of Parliament come together to ban this bill.

00:00:32.960 First of all, the role of the opposition is to oppose.

00:00:35.940 So if the Liberals introduce a bill, the Conservatives are there to point out the reasons why the bill is flawed and try to push back.

00:00:42.620 In fact, the previous two times that this bill was introduced,

00:00:45.840 the Conservatives came up with a handful of reasons why they didn't support this bill,

00:00:49.780 the definitions were too broad, it could needlessly criminalize conversations between children and their parents.

00:00:55.900 And yet, when the bill was reintroduced, the Conservatives threw away all of their complaints and issues with the bill,

00:01:02.000 and they all unanimously supported this bill.

00:01:04.500 We saw a silly image in the House of Commons of all the MPs jumping up and down,

00:01:10.100 cheering, congratulating themselves, glad-handing, hugging each other, and dancing.

00:01:14.280 They were so happy that they passed this bill, which was really never explained to the Canadian public the way that the media talked about it.

00:01:21.800 It seemed like, you know, this was such an obvious situation that we had to ban this bill.

00:01:27.100 But my guest on the show today, like me, has some issues and some concerns with this bill,

00:01:32.820 and we wanted to go into it in a bit more depth.

00:01:35.660 So I'm very pleased today to be joined by Dr. Deborah So.

00:01:38.780 Deborah So is a sex neurologist, author, journalist, political commentator, and the host of the Deborah So podcast. 0.99

00:01:46.100 She writes about the science of human sexuality, cultural politics, and academic censorship.

00:01:51.220 She's appeared on the Megyn Kelly show, Real Time with Bill Maher, The Joe Rogan Experience,

00:01:55.980 and The Ben Shapiro Show, some of the biggest podcasts and shows in the world.

00:01:59.920 In her recent book, The End of Gender,

00:02:02.060 Dr. So challenges the notion that gender is a social construct and a spectrum.

00:02:06.500 And she challenges the idea that there is no difference between how male and female brains operate.

00:02:11.600 So, Dr. Deborah So, thank you so much for joining the podcast today.

00:02:15.760 Hi, Candice. Thank you for having me.

00:02:18.280 So when this bill passed in Parliament, you told True North that it would have a chilling message.

00:02:25.560 It sends a chilling message.

00:02:26.860 I'm wondering if you could elaborate a little bit and explain to us why you also opposed this bill.

00:02:31.980 Sure. So I think at best, it is a well-intentioned move, but it is anti-scientific in that it does not differentiate between sexual orientation and gender identity.

00:02:43.440 It treats the two as though they are the same thing, even though they are different.

00:02:47.640 So conversion therapy for sexual orientation, I do not support because it does not work.

00:02:53.960 Sexual orientation is biological.

00:02:55.440 It is immutable.

00:02:57.060 It cannot be changed.

00:02:58.280 So someone who is gay or bisexual cannot be made to be straight. 0.71

00:03:01.960 Gender identity is different from sexual orientation in that it can change over the lifespan, particularly in young children.

00:03:09.860 So it is not appropriate to criminalize therapeutic interventions that are not affirmation or any questioning on the part of a clinician to try and understand someone's feeling of gender dysphoria.

00:03:21.860 So gender dysphoria is when someone feels more like the opposite sex than their birth sex. 0.87

00:03:26.500 If someone says that they want to transition, it's important for a clinician to be able to understand really why.

00:03:32.300 And I don't do clinical work anymore, but my colleagues who are still in the field are definitely terrified, and they really feel like they're not able to do their jobs properly.

00:03:42.340 They're not able to interrogate their patients.

00:03:44.360 Obviously, you would do it in a way that is very sensitive and appropriate to your patient, but the fact that that's completely been taken off the table is very worrisome.

00:03:55.140 And so as a result, I do think there is going to be an increase of detransitioners in the future. 1.00

00:03:59.840 So these are people who transition, realize that it doesn't make them feel better, and then they go back to living as their birth sex. 0.91

00:04:05.580 Sometimes they have permanent side effects of the interventions that they've undergone.

00:04:09.380 And that's another part of the conversation that no one seems to want to really talk about as well.

00:04:14.260 Well, so it's funny that you say that you think that this bill was well-intentioned.

00:04:18.000 And I think that most people, when they hear the term conversion therapy, their minds go to – I remember there was one movie from the 1990s called But I'm a Cheerleader.

00:04:27.420 And it was this sort of really funny, satirical comedy about this woman who – this high school girl who – her parents thought she was gay.

00:04:37.140 So they sent her to one of these conversion therapy camps.

00:04:40.500 And, you know, being around all these other gay kids, she realized that she actually really was gay.

00:04:44.500 And so it had the opposite impact.

00:04:46.800 But that's sort of what we think about when we think of conversion therapy.

00:04:50.600 But according to the conservative – the earlier opposition they had to this bill, it's not just conversion therapy.

00:04:57.240 That's sort of a catch-all.

00:04:58.940 But really what it does ban is, like you said, conversations, therapy, you know, some of the work – the clinical work that would be done prior to going through such a life-altering situation.

00:05:11.020 And I know you said that gender identity changes over a lifetime, but sexual orientation does not.

00:05:18.560 But even if you were – say you were gay or bisexual, you could still go to therapy.

00:05:23.920 You could still perhaps want to seek a therapist or talk to someone at your church or talk to your parents about your sexual orientation.

00:05:32.180 Did you see anything in this bill that would ban those kinds of conversations that would prevent people from being able to get therapeutic help from a trained professional that they would need to?

00:05:43.500 And then with regards to gender identity, like what would the real impact be?

00:05:49.660 Would people who are – like would clinical specialists, would they have to shut down their clinics?

00:05:56.300 Or does this bill close down some of these offices where there are trained psychologists or clinical therapists?

00:06:07.380 How would that impact – what would that impact look like?

00:06:10.440 Right.

00:06:11.140 So with, say, conversion therapy for sexual orientation, also known as reparative therapy, some of those treatments in the past were definitely very gruesome and really unethical.

00:06:20.840 When I think about the difference between, say, children and adults, I could understand a little bit more – I mean, I'm just generally not a fan of people banning things, but I do – I understand the approach of wanting to prevent harm against children.

00:06:36.080 So to ban conversion therapy for sexual orientation that treats children, I'm a little bit more understanding of because kids can't – I mean, if their parents are overriding decisions, they may or may not be making the best decision for the child.

00:06:49.920 For adults, it still makes me uncomfortable, really, if someone wants to seek therapy to change their sexual orientation, although from my understanding is some of these conversations are not necessarily about change.

00:07:00.320 It's more about how to live with these feelings and not act on them, to which I would still say, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with being gay or bisexual myself.

00:07:08.720 I'm straight, but I grew up in the gay community, so I really think acceptance would be a better approach, but with this bill, even adults are not able to seek appropriate treatment with regard to gender identity.

00:07:22.480 So if they're questioning their gender, if they're – people feel like the opposite sex or they identify more with the opposite sex for a whole number of reasons, and we see especially in young adults, adolescents who are born female, many of them, their desire to transition and live as male – this comes out of the blue very suddenly for many of them – is driven by many things that don't actually have anything to do with their gender or their sex.

00:07:49.440 So sex refers to biology, gender refers to how you feel about your biological sex, and so it's important to be able to get at why someone feels unhappy about being female.

00:07:59.760 So in many cases, these individuals have, say, a history of sexual trauma. Some of them are on the autism spectrum. Some of them are lesbian. So those are important conversations to have, and so now with these – any sort of probing from a clinician, that's been criminalized.

00:08:17.680 So they'll face up to five years in prison, potentially, is really going to – I mean, who's willing to take that risk?

00:08:25.860 I mean, of people I know in the field, only a very small handful of colleagues are willing to take that risk, and that's because they're close to retirement, and so they really don't have much to lose, or they don't really care at this point.

00:08:37.680 But for newer clinicians, especially in less experienced clinicians, they're definitely way too scared.

00:08:44.580 So, I mean, there was one very prominent case of my colleague, Dr. Ken Zucker, who had his clinic shuttered here in Toronto.

00:08:51.580 This was about six years ago. So that was – that really set another, I think, precedent for many people in the field to look at someone like him.

00:08:59.340 He's a world expert in gender dysphoria in children, and so people are saying, well, if he's not safe, what chance do I have to be protected?

00:09:08.540 Wow. So what do you think, Debra, what do you think the impact will be in terms of – so say there's a child who feels gender dysphoria, identifies with the other gender, and decides –

00:09:24.540 you know, that they can't – well, because of this new law, because of this new bill, they can't access the therapy that they may need.

00:09:32.940 They go ahead and transition. You mentioned that because of this, with more people transitioning, that more people will detransition,

00:09:41.600 because the feeling may change over the lifetime, or they realize, like you said earlier, that changing their gender doesn't actually fix the root problem,

00:09:50.120 because they didn't talk it through. Can you talk a little bit about this idea of detransitioning and what that looks like?

00:09:59.000 Right. So for those individuals, I mean, I think it's especially sad, because for – and I do support transitioning adults.

00:10:05.940 I always want to emphasize that. I think especially if a clinician is able to do their job and ask the right questions and make a proper diagnosis

00:10:14.240 and determine whether transition is actually right for someone, I do think it can help people feel better about their gender disabilities.

00:10:20.120 But what we're seeing in this case with, especially the young women, they are not being challenged.

00:10:26.380 In many cases, they are affirmed outright. No one is asking them about what else is going on in their lives.

00:10:31.800 And so whatever it is that is actually driving their desire to live as male, or in some cases, non-binary,

00:10:37.640 which is a third gender, which from a scientific perspective does not exist.

00:10:42.840 There are two genders, two sexes. And I go into all of the science behind this in my book, The End of Gender.

00:10:47.440 So whatever it is that someone is dealing with, that's still going to be there after they've transitioned,

00:10:53.260 if that's not what's really driving their gender dysphoria.

00:10:55.840 So they're either going to deal with it now with a good therapist in an ideal world,

00:11:01.360 or they're going to wait six months, a year, whenever they're done transitioning and realize that they still have these other issues that they have to deal with.

00:11:09.380 And then they're going to detransition and deal with those issues later down the line.

00:11:12.480 And so that's what you see happening with detransitioners. They will say, I have anxiety, I have unresolved feelings about me. 1.00

00:11:21.000 I think one common theme is for young women not really liking being sexualized.

00:11:25.260 You know, they go through puberty, their bodies change, and they don't appreciate it.

00:11:28.960 Suddenly they have men the age of their father or older staring at them in public, and it makes them uncomfortable, understandably.

00:11:35.640 And no one is saying to them, you know, that's a really unfortunate part, sometimes, of being a woman.

00:11:40.920 But, you know, as you get older, things will change.

00:11:44.740 Sometimes you grow comfortable with the attention that you're getting in some cases.

00:11:49.380 And so instead people are saying to these young women, no problem, you know, if you want to have a double mastectomy, take hormones. 1.00

00:11:57.740 In some cases, surgeries, they remove their uterus and their ovaries, 0.99

00:12:01.260 so they're not able to have a family if they change their mind later.

00:12:05.620 It's really devastating.

00:12:06.760 And the other thing that really upsets me is to see that these people are completely ignored, for the most part, by the mainstream.

00:12:12.220 They're told that they don't exist or they don't matter because people are afraid that talking about detransition

00:12:18.160 and the fact that they exist is going to be used to halt transitioning across the board for everyone.

00:12:23.580 Or some people will say the only reason they detransitioned is because of social pressure and that it's, you know, socially unacceptable to be transgender.

00:12:31.200 But if you actually talk to them and listen to their stories, you really hear another side to this narrative that's being promoted.

00:12:40.140 It just sounds like it's so politicized.

00:12:42.880 And it seems to me the solution is more conversations and more talking.

00:12:46.780 And yet here we have a bill that every parliamentarian agreed on, including the Senate.

00:12:51.660 They just fast-tracked it to say less, less conversation, which just seems to be the antithesis of a free society like Canada.

00:13:00.440 Debra had a question about what we're seeing in other parts of the world.

00:13:04.680 So it seems that Canada is sort of taking the opposite approach and other countries have taken a step back when it comes to concerns about transitioning.

00:13:13.100 Finland last year encouraged psychotherapy before transition treatment.

00:13:17.620 Australia and New Zealand recently made psychotherapy mandatory or essential.

00:13:23.440 And clinics in Sweden stopped prescribing puberty-blocking drugs and cross-sex hormones to patients under the age of 18.

00:13:30.960 So why do you think Canada is going the opposite direction from these other Western liberal democracies?

00:13:36.040 I'm not sure.

00:13:38.600 You know, I'm very proud to be Canadian.

00:13:40.300 I love my country.

00:13:41.100 And I don't know why this is happening.

00:13:44.200 It's really disappointing because I do think the rest of the world is waking up to this much sooner than we are.

00:13:50.620 And my hope is just that, I mean, I don't know at this point the bill has just passed.

00:13:55.100 I don't know what more it's going to take.

00:13:56.740 But I don't think most people are actually on board with this.

00:14:00.460 I think most people just feel afraid to speak up about it.

00:14:03.900 They don't want to be called hateful or bigoted or to be called transphobic.

00:14:09.640 And especially to see pretty much everyone across the board publicly who speaks on this saying, or in the mainstream at least, saying that this is a good thing for these kids.

00:14:19.280 I think many people also maybe genuinely believe that.

00:14:22.020 Maybe they think that the science is in support of this, which it is not.

00:14:26.300 But, yeah, I'm a bit at a loss for words because it's not a good direction that we're headed in.

00:14:34.140 Let's pick up on that.

00:14:35.660 You just said that the science is not on board on this.

00:14:37.760 I know in your book you talk about some of the myths with regards to gender and gender identity.

00:14:42.280 One of the myths that you talk about is the idea that gender is fluid and that you can change your gender.

00:14:47.980 You can go back and forth a little bit.

00:14:50.240 Can you talk a little bit about that and talk about the science behind it?

00:14:55.620 Sure.

00:14:55.820 So for children with gender dysphoria, the vast majority of them, once they hit puberty, they will desist, so they will no longer feel dysphoric.

00:15:05.100 And they're more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood and not be transgender.

00:15:09.600 But this larger idea about gender fluidity, I think it comes from this idea that most people feel a mix of masculine and feminine.

00:15:19.100 I don't think there are many of us who feel 100% masculine or 100% feminine all of the time.

00:15:24.200 And what I really think the movement is about, these individuals are looking to dismantle norms and deconstruct things.

00:15:32.220 And you see this in all areas of identity with regards to even race, I would say, or, I mean, just everything.

00:15:38.800 This is a larger trend we see in academia really being pushed out now into the rest of the world.

00:15:43.420 And it's affecting everybody, doesn't matter where you work or even if you're trying to mind your own business, it's going to impede on your life in some way.

00:15:51.240 So the gender fluidity thing, I think it's also people just really want to be special to some extent and show that they're somehow different from other people.

00:15:58.560 But gender definitely is binary.

00:16:01.180 There are two of them.

00:16:02.380 It's not that complicated.

00:16:04.920 So, okay, so there's two genders. 1.00

00:16:08.340 It's not that complicated.

00:16:09.400 How come then we see so many people claiming that there's, what, dozens or even hundreds of gender, that there's infinite numbers of gender?

00:16:17.780 Where do they get that from?

00:16:18.900 And can you just go through the science a little more as to, like, how do we know that there's only two genders?

00:16:24.060 Sure, so biological sex is determined by gametes, so these are mature reproductive cells.

00:16:30.320 So you have eggs and you have sperm, so sex is binary.

00:16:33.900 It is also not socially constructed, which, if it were, that would make absolutely no sense, but some people do claim that.

00:16:40.020 It is not.

00:16:41.240 And then with gender, gender refers to, as I mentioned, so sex is biological.

00:16:46.720 Gender refers to how we feel in relation to our biological sex.

00:16:50.000 So for 99% of us, our biological sex and our gender identity are in alignment.

00:16:56.320 For that 1% of people who are either transgender or intersex, some intersex people identify as transgender.

00:17:03.460 So intersex people have a combination of both male and female anatomy.

00:17:08.400 But they, too, prefer to live within the binary because some activists say, oh, intersex people prove that biological sex is a spectrum or gender is a spectrum.

00:17:16.480 Most intersex people actually prefer to live as male or female.

00:17:20.460 They don't want to be considered something in between.

00:17:22.620 And it's actually the activists who are, in many cases, not intersex themselves who are going at making these proclamations.

00:17:30.440 I would say the same thing about the trans community.

00:17:33.380 Everyday transgender people are really lovely, and many of them reach out to me to thank me for the things I say, which is really a relief for me.

00:17:39.620 So what you have is non-transgender allies, many of whom will identify as one of these exotic genders, you know, that you mentioned.

00:17:46.840 There are billions or however many now.

00:17:48.640 And I really think it's just about them trying to get intersectional points and to seem relevant.

00:17:54.220 Because if you are just a, I don't know, I don't want to point to specific identity markers, but it makes someone seem like they have more validity to what they're saying.

00:18:05.480 If they are this, a gender that is, a gender that is not male or female.

00:18:10.880 But I'm trying to think if there's anything else in the science I can tell you about that.

00:18:14.980 Well, I don't want to be cruel or anything, but when I look through the list, some of them are weird.

00:18:19.960 Like, I don't understand how someone's gender could be gender bender. 1.00

00:18:22.960 That's one of the listed ones that's recognized in the U.S.

00:18:25.620 I don't, gender bender, I don't understand how that's a gender. 1.00

00:18:30.200 But I think, like you said, people just want to be unique and different.

00:18:33.800 And it's just like, you know, you can dye your hair and you can do something to make yourself seem more legitimate.

00:18:38.420 Well, you can also claim to have a very unique gender, and that might give you some points in the intersectional community.

00:18:47.020 There were just a final questions.

00:18:48.360 So, you know, we're talking about Bill C-4.

00:18:49.940 I know it used to be called Bill C-6, but this bill to ban conversion therapy.

00:18:54.000 If you were presenting at committee or you had an opportunity to talk to MPs who drafted this bill or who voted on this bill,

00:19:01.820 what would you advise that they change about it so that it still enables, you know, proper and important conversations between children that may be feeling gender dysphoric and their clinicians?

00:19:17.440 Or, you know, what could be changed about this bill to make it something that you would feel comfortable being passed into law?

00:19:25.100 I think that's a really good question.

00:19:26.660 I think gender theory and gender ideology have to be removed entirely.

00:19:32.420 But I guess in terms of what's specified within it, I would say definitely clinicians should not be criminalized for how they choose to approach therapy.

00:19:45.880 I guess it's difficult to really know because there are some clinicians who could potentially be coming from the perspective of being discriminatory, say, towards transgender people and having that be their motivation for asking particular questions or disincentivizing someone from transition.

00:20:05.520 But in that case, I think it should be really up to the patient and parents to make a determination.

00:20:12.520 I don't I feel in some ways like I understand it's difficult for parents, but I think they should try to really be as involved in the process as well.

00:20:24.620 Like I don't I I'm torn here because overall, I would just say, you know, let the clinicians do what they let them do their job.

00:20:33.400 And if there are problems there, then treat that on a case by case basis.

00:20:37.420 But this is really not.

00:20:39.380 I mean, my sense with this bill is it's really about trying to appease certain groups.

00:20:44.240 I think I think there's more of a fear of the backlash from certain groups.

00:20:48.000 And when you take this really broad approach, especially when it comes to policy, it's not going to fit particular cases.

00:20:55.360 I don't think in this case it will necessarily even help most people who are struggling with this.

00:21:01.440 It's such a shame and it's too bad.

00:21:03.740 I would go even further and say that it's mostly just about virtue signaling and finding the latest sort of fad out there to champion.

00:21:11.300 That seems to be what the Trudeau government is all about.

00:21:14.880 Well, Dr. DeBrasso, thank you so much for joining the program.

00:21:18.000 Thank you for shedding light on this complicated but very important issues.

00:21:22.600 It's great to have you on the program and Merry Christmas to you and your family as well.

00:21:26.860 Merry Christmas.

00:21:27.720 Thanks for having me back.

00:21:29.960 All right.

00:21:30.480 Thank you so much for tuning in.

00:21:31.900 I'm Candice Malcolm and this is The Candice Malcolm Show.

The Candice Malcolm Show - December 15, 2021

Canada just banned clinical therapy for children thinking of transitioning

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