The Candice Malcolm Show - Danielle Smith LASHES OUT at Carney, Liberal MPs REVOLT over C-5

00:00:00.000 Hi, I'm Candace Malcolm and this is the Candace Malcolm Show. Folks, it looks like Bill C-5 is

00:00:08.140 going to sail through. It passed in the House of Commons. Now we're just waiting for it to get

00:00:13.200 passed by the Senate. We're going to dive into it a little bit, talk about the different groups

00:00:17.900 that are opposing it and why Premier Daniel Smith of Alberta has come out in favor of it,

00:00:24.280 in support of it. I'm very pleased today to be joined by one of my favorite guests here on the

00:00:27.540 Candace Malcolm Show. I'm talking about Brett Wilson. Brett is an investment banker, an

00:00:31.000 entrepreneur, a philanthropist. You probably recognize him from his days at the Dragon's

00:00:35.600 Den over at CBC. Brett, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us.

00:00:39.760 Pleasure to join always.

00:00:41.600 Okay, so yesterday we had a joint government caucus meeting between the UPC government in

00:00:47.620 Alberta and the Saskatchewan party in Saskatchewan. We had Daniel Smith, Alberta Premier, and Scott

00:00:53.420 Moe, the Premier of Saskatchewan, do a joint press conference where they basically just said,

00:00:57.760 look, enough is enough. We've had a decade of absolute disaster from this Liberal government.

00:01:03.380 C-5 is a course change. It shows that the government under Mark Carney wants to head in

00:01:07.960 a different direction. And look, we'll take it. I'm going to play a couple of clips here

00:01:10.980 from Premier Danielle Smith. So here she is just basically saying the national self-sabotage

00:01:16.460 of environmentalism gone awry has to end. It has to end. And this is the change we need.

00:01:22.000 Let's play that first clip. I think we're here today as a united caucus because we've decided

00:01:26.620 that enough is enough. Development of provincial resources is provincial responsibility. And that

00:01:32.960 includes the development of our transmission and electricity grids. The national self-sabotage

00:01:38.960 that has happened over the last 10 years has to end. And then next, Premier Danielle Smith goes on and

00:01:44.920 she just talks about how she thinks that C-5 signals that Mark Carney is doing publicly what he has

00:01:50.980 said privately to her. And I believe he's said things like this privately to you as well, Brett.

00:01:55.900 But she's talking about how he is going to very soon announce at least 20 substantial projects,

00:02:01.660 including mining, transmission projects, power projects, pipeline projects, which is exactly what

00:02:06.540 Canadians have been waiting for. We want these projects built. We want our economy to get

00:02:11.360 jumpstarted. We want young people to have jobs and opportunities and hope for the future. And we need

00:02:16.340 an economy that works. So let's play the second clip about how Smith says that C-5 provides the

00:02:22.340 necessary conditions to jumpstart our economy. Let's play the clip.

00:02:25.800 I would say Bill C-5 is a necessary condition to jumpstart the investment in our country, but it's

00:02:32.880 not going to be sufficient to change the investment climate overall in the long run. If I understand

00:02:39.580 where the prime minister is attempting to go is by if he very soon is able to announce a project list

00:02:46.040 that has 20 or more substantial projects on it that include mining projects and transmission projects

00:02:53.880 and power projects and pipeline projects. I think that would send a pretty big message to the world

00:03:01.040 about the direction that we're going. So, Brett, I'm wondering, like, is this the first step? Do you see

00:03:06.500 this as a course change for Canada and for the Liberal government? And what are your takeaways from

00:03:12.020 those clips from Premier Smith? Well, first of all, I'm a believer that C-5 will make progress. But I think 1.00

00:03:17.920 it's worth taking a step back and noting that in the last three months, there hasn't been a Liberal

00:03:23.700 anywhere mentioned the word or name Trudeau. So they've clearly parked him in a cupboard. I think they

00:03:33.360 deadbolted the cupboard. They're not trying to kill a guy. I don't mean to be stupid about that,

00:03:37.060 but they're taking him out of the picture because for 10 years, he, with his leadership, undermined our

00:03:43.840 country. He had misguided beliefs, misguided delusional beliefs, and his cabinet aligned with

00:03:51.040 him. And so now we've got Mark Carney politely, respectfully acknowledging that we need to participate

00:03:58.220 in the world economy. He still has an overarching concern about the environment. And I'm still quite

00:04:04.420 troubled that the new Liberal government hasn't focused on the EV introduction or mandate for 2035.

00:04:13.560 But come back to big picture. They've closed the door on Trudeau and made it crystal clear they want

00:04:19.220 to move forward. In various private conversations that I've had directly and very much indirectly through

00:04:25.580 other people, it's pretty clear that they acknowledge and understand that if we try to

00:04:29.800 punt, unwind, reverse Bill C-69 or Bill C-48, that that could take five to 10 years. And now what

00:04:38.620 they've done with Bill C-5 is effectively discovered, and I'm careful with this word, I think it overrides,

00:04:46.440 bypasses, circumvents, overrules, Bill C-69 or 60, whatever it is, 69-48. It allows us to get things

00:04:57.640 done that are in the national interest. And I think that's what we keep hearing. And that's what I

00:05:02.100 respect the most. Pretty clearly, it was Pierre Paul-Lev who laid the platform for everything we're

00:05:07.100 doing. And the Liberals almost joke about the fact that they use Pierre's oversight and overview

00:05:14.360 and plans, his policies. I mean, they can make fun of him now because he's not in the opposition.

00:05:19.520 He's not in the driver's seat yet, but he will be. But it goes back to big picture. Carney and Hodgson

00:05:26.260 in particular have made it crystal clear that they're not slowing down to look at 69 or 48.

00:05:32.860 They're using Bill C-5 to run. And I believe that they will. I mean, we can joke about the fact that

00:05:40.640 it's all talk, no action. Well, Tim Hodgson stood on stage a couple of weeks ago and said,

00:05:45.600 look, this isn't about talk. This is about action. Give me another week. He came to Calgary in his

00:05:51.080 first week in his career. Not once did a previous federal minister of resources show up to a room

00:05:59.940 that was filled in Calgary. Not once. Well, I tend to believe that, like I agree with you, that the

00:06:07.980 purpose of C-5 is they basically, you know, the new Kearney government came into office and said,

00:06:12.980 we have a huge mess that we created, we Liberals created. And some of the people who perpetrated

00:06:17.580 those laws, like Bill 69, are still in the room, are still at the table. We're talking about

00:06:21.340 Stéphane Gilbeau, Chrystia Freeland, many of the other familiar cast of characters that are still

00:06:26.760 there. Last time you were on the show, you mentioned that people around Mark Carney,

00:06:31.300 maybe Mark Carney himself, said, look, don't pay too much attention to Stéphane Gilbeau and these

00:06:36.140 other cast of characters. Focus more on ministers, new people like Tim Hodgson. And so, you know,

00:06:42.620 you mentioned that he came and spoke to a room full of Calgarians, which I guess is a good first

00:06:48.500 step. Do you think that that really does signal to Canadians and to the world that Canada has changed

00:06:54.660 and that we're now open for business? Calgary and again, the business community I circulate with,

00:07:00.820 and I do know a few people having been here 34 years, there's a sense of optimism that we haven't

00:07:07.540 had in a decade. And again, we've got two people that I care about, Carney and Hodgson, are saying,

00:07:14.240 we plan to move forward. And what are they doing? They're moving forward. I mean, they're actively

00:07:18.920 engaging. We saw that. We know that. By the way, as I shared with you once before, I am not a fan of

00:07:25.840 the, I mean, I don't mind the noise associated with separation, but it's, it's, it's rank. It's

00:07:34.680 moving to stupid is probably the best way of me describing it as people get radical in their,

00:07:39.960 in their commentary. I've happened to believe that Alberta and Saskatchewan work together.

00:07:45.220 Guess what? Moe and, Moe and Smith yesterday, Lloyd Minster working together. Guess what?

00:07:52.140 Wob Canoe is reaching out saying, I want to be part of this. That's Manitoba. EB is kind of getting

00:07:58.460 overruled internally. You can see the noise in terms of, is a pipeline going to get built across

00:08:03.520 British Columbia or not? And I mean, I think he pulled one of the stupidest stunts a Canadian 1.00

00:08:08.900 Prime Minister or Premier could ever do in asking Asia, China to build ferries when it could have

00:08:15.620 been built in North America. But park that thought. EB is at least aiming to try. I'm personally heavily

00:08:22.340 invested in the Yukon and we're actively in conversation in the Yukon about the business I'm

00:08:28.160 in, Whitehorse based, is looking at moving into Prince Rupert. So there's going to be collaboration.

00:08:34.360 Well, wouldn't that be good for our country? I've made kind of, I've had a few conversations

00:08:40.360 about separation. The question I ask of the separatist movement is, do you want a wall

00:08:45.600 or a moat or paperwork? And they kind of go, well, we don't need a wall. We don't need a moat.

00:08:53.260 Oh, so we need paperwork. Well, guess what? Maybe that's what collaboration is about. Maybe that's

00:08:58.720 what Smith and Mo are working on right now. Maybe that's what Hodgson and Carney have offered that

00:09:05.320 we will let us get paperwork. Do we have problems with our intergovernmental exchange and the, you

00:09:11.620 know, what we pay to the feds and et cetera, et cetera. Those are all, those are all issues of

00:09:16.140 certainly Alberta balanced, but of a national interest, but Alberta focused, not balanced.

00:09:21.860 I get frustrated by that noise, but the real, the great start, the great start, again, they've done

00:09:29.000 two things. One is they stopped talking about the last guy. So anything he said or did is gone.

00:09:34.900 That's what allows the liberals to now move forward in a thoughtful, engaging way. And when you have

00:09:40.020 people like Hodgson, who's been a, he's been a frontline in the investment world for 20 years.

00:09:45.120 I overlapped with him on a file 20, 25 years ago. He was a treat to work with, mutually respectful,

00:09:50.880 easy to agree on. And we got deals done. And now here we are. Let's do it again.

00:09:57.120 Well, it is interesting that they've sort of completely memory hold Prime Minister Justin

00:10:01.340 Trudeau. You don't hear about him at all. In fact, it was interesting at the G7,

00:10:04.960 President Trump was talking about him and I thought, yeah, I haven't, I haven't heard that

00:10:07.620 name in Canadian politics in, in a little bit. So obviously the media has been successful in helping

00:10:13.180 that along. I want to just go back to, to Bill C5 here because it did pass. So the conservatives have

00:10:20.020 supported it in the House. This is pretty rare that you have conservative opposition supporting

00:10:24.820 the liberals, right? The purpose of an opposition is to oppose. But I think that because, like you

00:10:30.380 said, the principles here were taken from Pierre Polyev. It was Pierre Polyev's policy and strategy,

00:10:36.020 had he won the election, that Carney sort of borrowed. So it sort of sailed through Parliament on Monday,

00:10:42.140 pardon me, with conservatives and liberals voting together. So it passed with 305 votes to just 30

00:10:48.340 oppose, which is interesting. They block the NDP and the Green all opposed it, but combined all three

00:10:54.280 of those parties have only have 30 votes nowadays because basically the Canadians of the left-wing

00:11:00.440 persuasion left those parties to support the liberals. And so now it's passed through committees.

00:11:05.260 It's just basically waiting from the Senate. I want to talk a little bit about the pushback

00:11:09.040 to this bill. I think, you know, by and large conservatives have supported it, but I noticed in the Edmonton

00:11:14.160 Journal, Lorne Gunter, who is a longtime national columnist, said this. He wrote,

00:11:18.880 conservatives must not support Carney liberals' Bill C5 power grab. And he really emphasized the

00:11:24.780 fact that it does sort of override or circumvent, the words that you're trying to find, the laws,

00:11:29.500 and that this is sort of slowly chipping away at our parliamentary traditions. It's nothing but a

00:11:34.120 naked power grab that enables more power grabs. And, you know, we should all be very weary and cautious

00:11:39.500 of Ottawa-centric ability to just ram through things that other parts of the country might

00:11:45.320 not want, you know, in a different scenario. We wouldn't want that. I personally don't find this

00:11:50.240 super convincing because at this point, Brett, I just want stuff built. I just want to have the

00:11:56.020 economy moving again. And it seems to me that the government's always trying to grab power.

00:12:01.460 In some ways, you know, doing it over the economy to get things built is better than, you know,

00:12:05.920 the power grabs that they try to do, for instance, over the pre-press or over the media. This kind of

00:12:11.000 stuff is commonplace now in Ottawa. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on this line

00:12:16.300 of criticism. Well, to build on a number of comments you made, first of all, the Bloc Quebecois

00:12:21.720 are a regional party. Why they're called and treated as a national party is slightly offensive

00:12:26.940 to Canada. Number two, NDP lost their mandate. They're gone. They're irrelevant. And the noise that's

00:12:34.020 allowed out of the Green Party, one person, is irrelevant. So you have 30 people who didn't

00:12:39.940 vote in favor, but the two parties that generally collide, goes back to your first comment that the

00:12:44.820 opposition's job is, again, the word oppose is correct, but it's more than that. It's to try

00:12:52.020 and challenge mistakes and do what's right for the country in the opinion of other people. Well,

00:12:58.480 the beauty of this situation is that Kearney and Hodgson, and ignore all the rest, have aligned

00:13:04.140 with the thinking that building things is better than canceling things, postponing things, shutting

00:13:10.940 things down. I've spoken with a First Nation leader in BC, Northeast BC, Northwest BC. He is 100% aligned

00:13:21.360 and is certain that the First Nations, if sat and talked to, and again, not the, not the elected

00:13:27.600 leaders, not the hereditary leaders, but if the elected leaders are sat and talked to, there's deals

00:13:33.380 to be done. There's so much to do. And that's, EB will have trouble bypassing or overriding if he,

00:13:40.580 he'll try, but he's going to have trouble overriding the First Nations. So again, once again, if we

00:13:45.300 collaborate as Western Canada, it's good for Canada, it's good for the West. So C5, what's

00:13:52.700 interesting there, and you're absolutely right, that there's an appearance that it has greater

00:13:57.460 control than we would ultimately like a government to have. But first things first, let's get some

00:14:03.760 things built. And at that point, let the opposition raise the flag if the liberals attempt to take too

00:14:11.200 much control of what we're doing. Okay. I have a couple of other examples of, in this case,

00:14:18.300 MPs speaking out against this bill, not who you would expect. I'm talking about liberal members

00:14:24.140 of parliament who oppose Mark Carney and what he's doing. So first, here is a clip of liberal MP

00:14:28.980 Nathaniel Irkside-Smith saying that Bill C5 threatens Canadian democracy and it shuts down democratic

00:14:35.920 debate, very much echoing the points made in Lauren Gunter's column. I just want to make this point,

00:14:42.120 right? If a conservative MP was speaking out against a conservative bill saying it threatens

00:14:46.240 democracy, it would be a huge national story. And the CBC would be playing it up, look at the division,

00:14:51.780 look at, you know, the parties, the weak leader can't control his caucus, parties in revolt, right?

00:14:57.020 And liberals do it and it barely even gets coverage. But here is a liberal MP

00:15:02.700 accusing Mark Carney's bill of undermining democracy. Let's play that clip.

00:15:07.540 This federal government is proposing to shut down democratic debate, curtail committee scrutiny,

00:15:12.480 and jam the bill through the legislature. It would all actually make Harper blush. Liberals would 1.00

00:15:18.660 rightly scream that we would scream if a federal conservative government attempted the same.

00:15:24.320 I just want to make this point that that's almost line for line what Althea Raj wrote in the Toronto

00:15:28.740 Star like a week ago. So either Smith there is getting his lines from Althea Raj or vice versa,

00:15:33.580 but basically mirroring the image that it would make Stephen Harper blush to put forth an omnibus

00:15:38.080 bill like this. Next, we have Karina Gould, who you remember, she ran for leader of this party.

00:15:42.840 She's seen as sort of one of the young leaders of the party. And she likewise told reporters that

00:15:47.220 there is a duty and an obligation to ensure that Indigenous rights are upheld in the process.

00:15:52.200 And she doesn't think that that's happening with this bill. Let's play that clip, please.

00:15:55.200 There is a clear desire on the part of Canadians to be able to get big projects done

00:16:00.520 in this country. We haven't been able to find the right balance in order to do that. There is

00:16:05.800 a duty and an obligation to ensure that Indigenous rights holders are part of this process.

00:16:13.260 So again, if it were conservative MPs that were speaking out against their leader and saying that

00:16:17.980 we failed to get it done, we didn't do what we need to do democratically, it would be a huge

00:16:22.040 national story. It would dominate. And when it's happening to the liberal spread, barely

00:16:25.700 even of note. And I'm just wondering what your take is of these liberal MPs sort of on the left

00:16:32.360 side of the party even, speaking out against their government's bill.

00:16:38.140 Well, in watching her ramble, I could sense that she was itching to say, under Trudeau,

00:16:46.640 this is what we did. But she couldn't, wouldn't. And again, she'd lose her job if she started to

00:16:53.280 miss a line. It's one thing to challenge the bill and make sure that First Nations are respected,

00:16:58.740 but I'm not aware of anything that's happening where we're saying, let's just override the First

00:17:04.060 Nations. The goal is to override all the pause buttons, all the stop buttons, and get to the

00:17:10.920 negotiating table immediately. And that goes back to their comments. It's going to take a couple of

00:17:15.620 years. We don't just announce that we're building a pipeline. We don't just announce that there's a

00:17:20.400 new LNG plant. We don't just announce that there's a new uranium mine. There's still approvals in

00:17:25.180 process. And I don't sense that there's any desire on the part of the liberals to try and bypass the

00:17:31.220 respect that's required for the First Nations. Now, there's a lot of confusion within the First

00:17:35.760 Nations. I know a number of leaders. Again, there's 650 unique First Nations. Do they all agree on

00:17:41.820 anything? No. So that's part of the negotiating challenge that's put on the table. But I don't

00:17:48.100 buy her position that the Bill C-5 is intended to override or overrule or demean or diminish the

00:17:54.840 role of First Nations in our great country. Well, you're right. The way that the media often

00:17:59.660 speaks about First Nations, and particularly people on the left, they talk about it like it's a monolith

00:18:03.420 and that they all disapprove of research development. To your point, there's so many great chiefs out there

00:18:09.440 that are the ones advocating because they want the resources for their young men to have work,

00:18:14.260 for their reserves to have more funds and more resources. But to that point, there's a CBC story

00:18:20.400 that came out yesterday. The headline says First Nations urged the governor general to delay or even

00:18:25.880 reject Bill C-5. I'm going to read a little bit from this. Some First Nations leaders say Bill C-5

00:18:31.080 shouldn't pass until Governor General Mary Simon, the first indigenous person to be appointed to that 0.95

00:18:35.660 role, addresses their concerns. She is the crown representative, and I think she should be

00:18:39.700 involved, said one First Nations leader. I'm hoping she's paying attention to what's happening here

00:18:44.200 so she can be thinking about intervening. Wow. You know, getting the governor general to intervene,

00:18:49.580 but I don't know if this ever happened. Finally, it says the process that led to Bill C-5 is a case

00:18:54.740 study in how not to engage with indigenous nations, said one chief, adding that there is no meaningful

00:19:00.220 engagement or recognition of the complexity of rights, titles, and interests. I just need to make the

00:19:04.680 point that Bill C-5 doesn't actually promote any one specific project, right? It's just changing

00:19:10.200 the groundwork, saying that there are some very, you know, overzealous environmental rules that if

00:19:16.040 there's something of national importance, it should be able to override it, which is well within the

00:19:19.400 rights of the prime minister and of the government. And now if there is one of those individual projects

00:19:24.120 that First Nations have a major problem with or one or two chiefs, then we can talk about that at the

00:19:29.740 time, right? But this is just providing the framework. So this all just seems really,

00:19:33.440 really overblown hyperbolic, asking the king, basically the governor general to step in and

00:19:38.960 stop. I mean, I mean, talk about undemocratic, right? Like that to me is just a wild suggestion.

00:19:44.340 What do you make of it? Well, clearly someone in the First Nations leadership is looking at

00:19:49.660 Mary Simon, Governor Simon, Governor General Simon as a First Nation leader. And she is, but that's not

00:19:55.440 her role. She's not there to represent First Nations. She's there to act on behalf of the king,

00:20:00.460 representing all Canadians in that conversation. So she's not ever, in my opinion, going to be

00:20:06.860 entitled to even have an intervening role. I'm involved right now with permitting a coal mine.

00:20:13.360 Not many people can say that, but it's an underground coal mine. It's metallurgical coal

00:20:19.140 used to make steel, which is the essence of how we grow our world, our country.

00:20:24.040 Um, we had two First Nations that are regional, approach us, look for a deal. They got a deal.

00:20:31.600 We have royalties, we have work, we have respectful, mutual commitments to the project.

00:20:37.980 Then all of a sudden, two eco-justice and that type of party intervened, attempt to intervene,

00:20:44.780 and they dragged through a lawyer in Vancouver, four other First Nations in Alberta,

00:20:49.660 to complain for the sole purpose of also getting paid while we do this underground mine. Those First

00:20:56.700 Nations are all 250 to 500 kilometers away from the mine. So my point is, and I mean this politely

00:21:03.720 and respectfully, the First Nations aren't organized. And to think that some of their leaders pretend that

00:21:10.180 they have the say and the voice of all 600 and roughly 50 First Nations is misleading. And in fact,

00:21:17.400 I'd call it a lie. We work collaboratively. I do a lot of work from the Yukon. I mean,

00:21:22.200 my business investment in the Yukon, I'm the second largest investor, but the First Nations as a group

00:21:27.180 own 60, roughly 55%, 60% of the company. We work collaboratively all the time. Everyone's at the

00:21:34.720 table. We arm wrestle, we negotiate. We don't always agree and that's okay. But this idea that we now have

00:21:41.220 to have, again, effectively First Nations intervention on every project in the world?

00:21:47.020 No. Involvement? Yes.

00:21:50.900 Well, that's certainly the type of thinking that got us into this problem where we can't seem to

00:21:55.480 build anything is because in some ways we're too collaborative. We wanted to hear from too many

00:21:59.540 people. At a certain point, you just have to get things done to benefit the entire country,

00:22:04.440 right? So you can't have the governor general stepping in for one special interest group

00:22:08.260 when it harms objectively 95% of the country.

00:22:12.260 By the way, it's really important to emphasize that Hodgson and Carney are talking a two-year

00:22:17.480 window. That's what they want to use to get projects going. And again, we're not going to

00:22:23.500 approve anything in the first week, but I think the idea of having projects on the table and ready

00:22:28.640 to approve at every level, they're going to accelerate the process. And it's a real treat listening to

00:22:34.380 them. Am I still voting conservative? Yeah, absolutely. Am I a fan of what Pellev forced

00:22:40.060 the liberals to do? Absolutely. But here we are. Let's get rolling.

00:22:44.940 Well, I tend to agree. I will be cautiously optimistic with Mark Carney because of course,

00:22:49.480 you know, he's still part of the party that promoted the agenda that has destroyed our country.

00:22:54.380 And, you know, he wrote the book Values where he really spelt out the environmental vision

00:22:59.360 for the world that we're all still suffering under. So, you know, actions speak louder than

00:23:03.980 words. So hopefully we'll see some real change here. Brett, thanks for your insights. It's always

00:23:08.560 so interesting to talk to you and hear your thoughts. Thanks for joining us today.

00:23:11.900 Appreciate your opportunity. Thanks, Candice.

00:23:13.660 All right. This is Brett Wilson and I'm Candice Malcolm. That's all the time we have for today,

00:23:17.040 folks. We'll be back again tomorrow. Thank you and God bless.

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The Candice Malcolm Show - June 20, 2025

Danielle Smith LASHES OUT at Carney, Liberal MPs REVOLT over C-5

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