Deborah Deversau is a journalist, columnist, author, and former biological sex researcher from Toronto. She holds a PhD from York University and her writing has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, The Globe and Mail, Scientific American, Playboy Magazine, and many other publications. She is a scientist and takes an evidence-based approach to her research, and she is known for bravely and often defiantly presenting the facts, speaking the truth, and standing up to the ideological forces by debunking the myths about sex and identity in our society. In our conversation, we discuss her new book, The End of Gender: Debuting the Myths about Sex and Identity in our Society, and we talk about some of the biggest myths being pushed by activists. We also talk about the harsh realities for trans people that are rarely discussed, and how we as a society need to stand up for the truth and push back against anti-scientific propaganda.
00:05:19.200I miss the field of sex research, but I also don't, I don't think I would have lasted very long if I had ended up staying.
00:05:26.800Just with the way things have been going, the climate has become even more politicized, more polarized.
00:05:34.960And as we see any expert, any scientist who tries to go against particular narratives, especially when it comes to gender, when it comes to trans orthodoxy, they really pay a price for doing so.
00:05:53.540And so what was it initially, though, that made you want to go into sex research and become a scientist?
00:06:00.600It's sort of an atypical career field.
00:06:04.120I don't know if there are a lot of women that go into this field of research, but what brought you there in the first place?
00:06:10.900Part of the goal of my career is to bring more awareness to sexology, which is the scientific study of sex and gender.
00:06:20.620I do want it to be seen as a legitimate science because it is.
00:06:24.280I think sex remains quite stigmatized in our society.
00:06:27.400In the book, I talk very much about how I'm sex positive.
00:06:29.440I don't think there should be any shame or guilt around sex or talking about sex.
00:06:34.940So for me, I just happened to stumble upon a placement during graduate school, and I loved it.
00:06:41.000I didn't know such a thing as sex research existed, but at the time, I was doing brain imaging research.
00:06:44.960And that it was such a new way of looking at the field.
00:06:50.040And I also felt it was so relevant to so much of who we are as human beings and understanding our own behavior.
00:06:58.100And as I learned more about it, I realized also that it challenged so many ideas I had.
00:07:02.660So, you know, when I was, I still would consider myself very much in favor of gender equality.
00:07:06.420I've distanced myself from the label of feminist, but I used to be very much a really hardcore feminist.
00:07:11.360There were a number of things I believed very strongly that I felt were tied to being an independent, free-thinking woman that I realized were not actually based in science, not based in fact at all.
00:07:22.160So I think that was part of also a shift for me intellectually from feminist dogma to science and sexology.
00:07:29.840And that's probably also part of what my interest was in suddenly realizing all of these things I thought were true or not true.
00:07:35.740And here is a source that is actually educating me and teaching me what the truth is.
00:07:40.820But I would definitely say it's rare, I guess.
00:07:45.620It's more rare when you think of what people tend to do if they want to go into the science and especially, you know, being Asian.
00:07:50.840My parents at first didn't really understand what I was doing, but they're very happy for me now, very supportive.
00:07:56.460So did you come from sort of a strict background and family or were your parents pretty open-minded?
00:08:05.160I mean, I think for any parent, I mean, I also my change to journalism, any parent, I mean, not many people go in, do a PhD in science and then completely change fields when they finish.
00:08:17.440But yeah, I've been very fortunate in that way.
00:08:20.300So I think that's part of it also to show any, everyone, you know, that I think it's easy to, to be skeptical when people say they want to change career trajectories.
00:08:32.280But I've just, I'm very, I guess, stubborn in wanting to prove people wrong.
00:08:38.640It's interesting because in your book, you make the distinction between sex research, which is a science, and sort of gender studies or feminist studies, which are sort of more, I guess, social sciences or not really science at all.
00:08:52.760So can you just very quickly explain the sort of difference between the two fields?
00:08:56.800Right. And, and sometimes you will see people talking as though they are sexologists or they're talking about the quote unquote science of sex, but it's not, it's very much ideological.
00:09:06.860So the difference between a discipline like sexology, which is science-based, it's empirically based, it's very much about the scientific method and conducting very rigorous studies.
00:09:18.520Ideally, when you do a scientific study, you go in with your, your hypotheses, but you design your study in a way that you're going to try and get as close of an approximation to the truth as possible.
00:09:28.880And you're not going to design your study in a way to fulfill whatever you think the outcome might be.
00:09:35.080You're open to whatever you find essentially, whereas, and it's quantitative methods that are used.
00:09:41.440So this, these are numbers, you know, it's very much about accuracy and precision versus fields like it.
00:09:49.980I, I hesitate to throw any particular disciplines under the bus, but I guess I do in the books.
00:09:54.280So I might as well do it here as well. Something like, um, gender studies or, uh, anything with the word studies in its discipline title is suspect in my mind, because again, not all scholars in those fields are necessarily ideological, but many of them will say they are not in favor of science.
00:10:13.560They're not in favor of the scientific method.
00:10:15.960They see science as something that was created by quote unquote white men or that it's sexist or transphobic.
00:10:22.240And so their methods really, they have nothing really to do with statistics or numbers at all.
00:10:27.800It's very much theories that have no support for them.
00:10:31.720And oftentimes, I mean, it's completely nonsensical if you tried to read their papers and they're not really interested in any sort of rigor or debate.
00:10:41.440It's very much about my sense is it's about whatever social change they're seeking to employ.
00:10:47.000And then they work backwards and their so-called papers, um, support those ideas because they're more interested in whatever change their social or political agenda they're, they're seeking to fulfill.
00:11:00.820It's not about actually getting an understanding of what reality is.
00:11:03.780So I, I'm not in favor of those disciplines.
00:11:06.180I think if they were to be more open to whatever they were to find, or if they were less, because they act as though they offer some sort of, um, some sort of adequate replacement for science because they're trying to essentially be rid of scientific disciplines and say that their way is the best way forward.
00:11:26.060But it's not even close to adequate as a replacement because, again, it's completely based in nonsensical ideas that have been unproven.
00:11:38.060And I would say for people who, because when studies come out, what we're seeing now is more of this ideology is coming into actual scientific studies that are published, which is very worrisome to me because understandably, you know, most people are busy.
00:11:50.780They don't have time to go digging and read these studies and see who are the authors and figure out, is this a legitimate scientific study or not.
00:11:57.660But in the book, I do offer some pointers in terms of what to look for to determine whether a study is legitimate or if it is something that is basically biased.
00:12:07.760Yeah, it's so interesting because so, I mean, it's been a while for me since I was in university, but I studied political science and economics and, you know, that they, they rely a little bit on data.
00:12:17.320But then I also took a bunch of sociology courses and that was where I sort of had the kind of run in with the Marxism and sort of postmodernist ideology that is really rammed down your throat in a lot of social science courses.
00:12:32.260I had a lot of Marxist professors and I kind of thought, OK, this is just happening in social sciences.
00:12:39.580Like, that's a place where they pursue, like, pure knowledge and use a scientific method and the problem of ideology doesn't exist there.
00:12:48.180But it seems like just over the last, like, maybe five, ten years, it really has creeped into the sciences where, to your point, you can't, you can't really trust whether or not a study is accurate because you don't know if the authors are being ideological.
00:13:02.720In your book, you have a couple of examples of sort of peer-reviewed papers that came out that basically got pulled because they pushed a controversial idea, you know, about whether or not, like, men and women have different brains and these kind of things.
00:13:19.620Did you worry that hard sciences and things like biology are just not going to be trustworthy, you know, in the next five, ten years?
00:13:30.480And I would go one step further and say it's beyond something like biology being seen as not trustworthy.
00:13:35.860It's just no one's going to want to do any research in these fields because they're all being taken out.
00:13:41.600The studies are being pulled and the individual professors are being targeted.
00:13:45.360I think the reason we got to this point is because, you know, being an academic in the sciences is extremely competitive.
00:13:53.480You know, they're working 70 plus hours a week.
00:13:56.600They don't have time to be dealing with mobs on social media or be dealing with all of this political interference.
00:14:04.620I mean, and also when once you get to that point, you're very focused on your work.
00:14:08.740You're very passionate about your work and you just want to do good science.
00:14:11.980I mean, I can't speak for everyone in the field, but that's that's my sense.
00:14:14.700And so I think there's this sense that being a good scientist will prevail.
00:14:19.420And unfortunately, that's just not how it is now.
00:14:22.000And that's not how it is culturally, where people who are completely anti-science actually do have a say in terms of what science is being produced and who gets a voice, even if they aren't an expert in the field.
00:14:33.440And we see this very much with activists who have, in some cases, absolutely no understanding of these scientific disciplines or even what the paper that was published said.
00:14:42.420And yet they have the power to have it retracted, which to me should never happen.
00:14:47.880So I think because legitimate scientists are so busy, they're preoccupied with their work.
00:14:52.040And I think in some senses, maybe a little bit idealistic in terms of thinking that because they're doing good work, that's really what matters.
00:14:59.960This is why we see this happening now where activism has become so entrenched.
00:15:03.920And now it is actually affecting the kind of knowledge that's being produced.
00:15:08.200So you were in academia and you felt like the culture was just pushing one way that was so far from the research and the data that you were seeing sort of in your own research, that that's sort of what prompted you to decide to speak out and leave academia.
00:15:26.000Have you what was sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back or what was it that pushed you over the edge to say, OK, I can't I can't be in academia anymore.
00:15:35.520I have to go in and speak to the public and become a journalist.
00:15:39.800I would say it was probably when that op ed was published.
00:15:43.040I was mobbed pretty badly on social media.
00:15:46.140But I have to say for anyone who's afraid of being mobbed on social media, once you survive the first one, the rest of them are quite literally a walk in the park, as I'm sure you know that.
00:15:56.660And I think also because I knew what was coming, I was prepared mentally and emotionally for it.
00:16:01.140So I was able to withstand it a bit better than, you know, I've seen some of my colleagues who get mobbed and they really weren't expecting it.
00:16:07.760And and it leaves them quite shaken after.
00:16:09.880I mean, I think there are some some legitimate psychological effects as a result of of being attacked so viciously.
00:16:17.320I mean, just because it's online doesn't mean it's not real to some extent.
00:16:20.900But I think what what I see happening is for some of us who go through that, we just become emboldened and say, you can't stop me.
00:16:29.280It doesn't you're not going to to bully me into being quiet, whereas other people really have a bad experience and they don't they don't want to ever engage and deal with that.
00:16:39.780But in terms of what I think that was part of the process and made me realize I survived that.
00:16:44.540And I felt strongly, again, there are certain issues within sex research that are being either misrepresented in the mainstream or that they're biased or particular ideas were taking hold that are unhelpful.
00:17:01.340And then with the book, it was based on all the questions people have been asking me in the time that I've been writing about the science of gender and really wanting to be able to answer all their questions, because the standard column is usually about a thousand words.
00:17:20.100And so it doesn't give you a lot of space to really hash out all your ideas.
00:17:23.660And especially with these issues, because they are considered so controversial, I wanted to make sure that if I'm going to if I'm going to talk about this stuff, I want it to be done in a way that is both accurate to the scientific data, but also sensitive and also nuanced.
00:17:39.060So the book gave me the opportunity to do that.
00:17:43.260And so did you have pushback against I know in the book you talked about how you kind of kept it quiet that you were writing this book because you were worried that they would go after the publisher.
00:17:52.620I know that's happened to so many academics and journalists, too, that they have a book deal and this sort of mob that you're talking about, that the cancel culture mob finds a way to, you know, protest or lobby the publishing company and they get the book deal pulled.
00:18:07.800So did you have any kind of pushback like that or were you able to just sort of fly under the radar?
00:18:14.360I yeah, as I wrote in the book, I was very quiet.
00:18:16.740I literally told three people my life when I signed the book deal.
00:18:19.880It was it was really difficult for me not to say because people on social media, my readers would reach out and they would say, are you OK?
00:18:25.480We haven't seen anything from you for a while.
00:18:27.740And I really wanted to tell them what I was working on and to say, you know, get ready, because I think this is going to be something that will really speak to the concerns you have.
00:18:34.880But I mean, there's been backlash since it came out, for sure.
00:18:39.960I mean, I could go through the things that have happened, but part of me also feels like I try to stay very positive.
00:18:47.340I feel very, very blessed to be in the position where, you know, I did get to write this book and that it is going and so many people have been reading it and giving me their feedback.
00:18:56.720But I'll definitely say that, you know, there are some appearances that I've done that have been covered in a very biased way.
00:19:02.540People have called me all kinds of things like transphobic.
00:19:05.140They say my book is anti-trans, which I don't believe it is.
00:19:07.880I think anyone who actually reads the book and listens to what I say knows that I have I have only love for trans people.
00:19:15.520I only I have love for anyone that I discuss in the book.
00:19:19.340It's not coming from a place of of wanting of any sort of ill intent.
00:19:24.780And so I would just say for anyone watching or listening to this, just don't listen to come to your own opinion of me and what I have to say and of the end of gender after reading it, as opposed to what people say.
00:19:37.860Because in a lot of cases, people misrepresent what I say or they just blatantly make things up and say that I claim that I've said things that I that I would never say because I don't believe those things.
00:19:49.780Yeah, well, I think I mean, I've been through a similar thing, obviously a very different issue.
00:19:55.920My background in academia was studying terrorism and looking into different terrorist groups.
00:20:02.180And I started writing really publicly about immigration during the big immigration crisis in Europe in 2015 and what was happening in Canada.
00:20:11.820It's like just by talking about issues that are seen as sort of taboo or politically incorrect, you get labeled with the worst possible names.
00:20:18.700Like for me, it was Islamophobic or xenophobic or racist.
00:20:21.840And it's like, in some ways, it's so jarring to have those kind of words thrown at you.
00:20:27.220I mean, I read your book and, you know, obviously you're not transphobic.
00:20:31.620You care a lot about the issue, but also you're a scientist.
00:20:34.240So you're very removed and diplomatic and talking about the data.
00:20:38.660And so it's kind of shocking, Deborah, that people would would take what you're writing and use that to come up with this this concept that you're transphobic when you're clearly not.
00:20:50.020But that that doesn't faze you, though.
00:20:52.960I saw you on Joe Rogan, which is a huge platform.
00:21:39.340Yeah, I think, you know, when people call you names, I would say in the beginning, definitely it was jarring for me as well to to hear to because I know that some people will see that they'll say Debra so as a transphobe and they'll just say, OK, she must be a bad person.
00:21:52.440I'm going to not look at her work or I'm just any of her name ever comes up.
00:21:56.340I'm just going to assume she's a hateful person.
00:21:59.100And I think we have to just get past that.
00:22:01.840You know, I feel that was very helpful for me to just believe that I think most people who have critical thinking skills will hopefully take the time to actually go and read my work and look up.
00:22:13.300And I really appreciate it with my audience because they'll tell me my friend was saying this about you and I told them, actually, no, she's not that you go read her work and you can see.
00:22:21.420So that's I guess the advice I would have, because I think a lot of people live in fear of being called these names when they are not whatever it is they're afraid of being called.
00:22:30.300And as long as you know that, that's really what matters.
00:22:32.880And if people are so, so much like sheep that they're not even going to they just blindly believe what people tell them, then, you know, I don't think it really matters what those people think.
00:22:43.700Yeah, those aren't the people that are going to be convinced anyway.
00:22:46.860So not not good idea to spend your time on them.
00:22:51.340Although I do I did read your book that you you like reading the comment section on your your articles and you do I don't really do I do it a little bit, but sometimes it's just so like overwhelming or crazy what people are saying that you're kind of like, you know, it is good to get the feedback, but you kind of have to filter it out, especially on Twitter, because there's a lot of craziness out there.
00:23:13.740Oh, for sure. And I would say 90% of it usually is garbage, but for the 10% that is actually someone who's trying to engage in good faith.
00:23:21.960It has been helpful for me. And I definitely have taken that feedback into consideration when I was writing The End of Gender and also, you know, just more broadly, because I think it is important.
00:23:32.440The only way that I know or any of us know that we are correct or that we're making sense is to challenge ourselves and say, well, where are the potential holes in what I'm saying?
00:23:41.560And if people, I do like criticism, because I think that's the only way you can get better as well. But there's a line between criticism and abuse and people obviously being nasty, but there are some people I think who are able to be respectful in how they engage. And so I'm willing to take what they have to say on board in that case.
00:24:00.380That's great. Well, the book is The End of Gender, debunking the myths about sex and identity in our society. So I know you cover nine main myths in this book. And, you know, to me, I'm familiar sort of with like a cursory understanding of these issues, but I didn't know like the in-depth of them.
00:24:19.860And one of the things that struck me, Deborah, was just how many kind of contradictions there were just among the nine myths. Like, you know, so many of the ideas that people who are sort of holders of gender ideology have don't make sense under basic scrutiny.
00:24:36.540So I think it's great that your book winds this up. And, you know, for me, not having a scientific background and not having a background at all in biology and sexology, it was really helpful just to break down the terms because it can be really confusing and therefore intimidating because you're like, I don't even have the first sense of what these people are talking about sometimes.
00:24:57.200Like when I first started learning about pronouns or the trans community, it's like, wow, there's a lot here. And there's a lot of new words that I've never heard of. And it's sort of a lot to unpack.
00:25:06.240So I really appreciate that your book sort of laid it all out in sort of layman's terms so that it's approachable to anyone. But I thought maybe we could go through a couple of these myths and you could just sort of explain sort of how they came about and what's wrong with them.
00:25:25.080So maybe first, your first, the first myth that you debunk here is that biological sex is a spectrum. We hear that a lot. First of all, I was wondering if you just explain the difference quickly between sex and gender.
00:25:38.980Right. Well, thank you for that feedback, because that was definitely one of my goals with the book was to write the science in a way that anyone can understand it.
00:25:48.500If you have zero background in science or biology, because that's important. I think even the best scientific papers, if they are not written in a way that someone can understand it and can access it as well, because a lot of science is behind a paywall.
00:26:01.760So people can't even read the thing. I felt that was important because otherwise the content is completely lost.
00:26:07.360So I'm glad to hear that in terms of sex and gender. So biological sex is determined by gametes.
00:26:14.400So these are mature reproductive cells. So they're eggs and sperm. And then gender has to do with how we feel in relation to our biological sex.
00:26:23.180So whether we feel masculine or feminine. So if someone is transgender, they identify more as the opposite sex than their birth sex.
00:26:29.820And then gender expression is how we express our gender identity. So usually this is through clothing, mannerisms, our haircut, makeup, things like that.
00:26:40.640So then with regard to the myth of biological sex being a spectrum. So this is something that's been become more and more prominent, I would say, probably the last year or so.
00:26:49.940And I think where it's coming from is wanting to argue in favor of rights for people who are intersex.
00:26:59.600So intersex people possess characteristics of both male and female. And I'm totally on board with that.
00:27:06.020I think intersex people should be given legal protections, you know, equal rights.
00:27:12.960I think intersex children should be left alone and have bodily autonomy.
00:27:17.940They should not be forced to undergo unwanted potentially surgeries because that's another concern.
00:27:24.520There's been a history of that for intersex children.
00:27:27.120But I don't think we have to redefine biological sex or pretend that it is a spectrum when it's not.
00:27:33.080Most intersex people actually do want to live within the binary.
00:27:39.000They don't want to be something in between that or to collapse male and female into one construct.
00:27:47.580So that is a very unusual one when I start to see that idea become more prominent because it doesn't make sense because we have, again, eggs and sperm.
00:28:01.900It's interesting that this concept has kind of come up because I remember back when I was in university, there was this idea that sexual orientation was a spectrum that you could like that everyone was on the spectrum somewhere, whether you were like a little bit gay or very gay.
00:28:21.280And they were kind of pushing this idea of spectrum.
00:28:24.140And then now it's taken on the idea of gender and sex itself.
00:28:29.820So the idea that there aren't just two genders, but there are hundreds or even potentially infinite number of genders.
00:28:39.020So just because I don't want to come across as insensitive and I'm trying to, you know, take on this issue in good faith.
00:28:47.260The idea that there are intersex people and there have been throughout human history and across cultures, that is a fact of biology, correct?
00:28:59.260And so the idea that someone would be born with ambiguous genitalia or both male and female genitalia and that in that case, the person would still biologically be either male or female, correct?
00:29:13.340Yes, because intersex people, for the most part, still produce one or the other type of gamete.
00:29:20.180It's very, very, very rare that someone has the capacity or the capability to produce both.
00:29:26.000And even in that case, they usually will only produce one or the other.
00:29:30.540It's not that they're able to produce both at the same time.
00:29:32.980But I find most people, when they are trying to argue in favor of biological sex being a spectrum, they don't even look at the data.
00:29:39.560They don't even look at these very, very rare case studies.
00:29:42.380They very much just say, we want X, we want rights for this group, so this is what we're going to say.
00:29:49.340And you see so-called scientific experts arguing this as well because, again, they're basically reverse engineering what they would like the social policy to be.
00:29:59.680And so then they're changing what science says in order to facilitate that.
00:30:02.640And this is just like a prevalent thing that's come up recently, Debra, because, I mean, again, I feel like this stuff wasn't really an issue five years ago or so.
00:30:15.280Like, I think there's an example in Nature Journal that said that the idea of two sexes is simplistic and that biologists now think that there's a wider spectrum.
00:30:24.500Presumably that would exist in all animals.
00:30:27.360So the idea that really the idea of male and female are kind of like a social construct.
00:30:32.720How long have you been seeing this argument floated around?
00:30:35.740Well, I would say it started with the argument of gender as a social construct, which it is not.
00:30:42.700And so I argue about that myth in the book.
00:30:44.680And then from there it went to gender is a spectrum, which it also is not.
00:30:53.920I would say the specific specific to biological sex being not binary, probably in the last two years, really, was when it really started to pick up because, yeah, we saw that with Nature.
00:31:07.020Nature is one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world.
00:31:11.040In 2018, there was that whole debacle with the Trump's memo saying that sex is defined at birth by genitalia and people, all the media freaked out and not well, not all.
00:31:24.260But I would say the majority of left leaning media outlets got very upset about this and said that he was erasing trans people and intersex people.
00:31:32.220I do want to emphasize I do support transitioning in transgender adults because research does show that can be beneficial.
00:31:37.900And also adults have the cognitive capacity to make life-altering decisions.
00:31:43.780But, you know, I talk more specifically in the book about this particular incidence in 2018 and how really what the memo was saying was not actually that inaccurate, depending on how you define sex versus gender.
00:31:58.600Because what we saw as journalists were using the word gender when really what they should have been using was sex.
00:32:03.720So when you use the word gender and you say that gender is defined at birth and by genitalia, that's a much different meaning from saying that sex is determined at birth and by genitalia.
00:32:15.760So, yeah, I mean, I would say that I'm curious to see what they're going to come up with next, but I'm really not.
00:32:22.900I really would like for all of this to stop, but there's going to be more of it, I know for sure, because it's always about pushing boundaries.
00:32:29.480It's always about rewriting and redefining things, because that's that's the only way that people who are anti-science can really do away with the field.
00:32:39.680It's so interesting. I know you write about it in the book a lot that the idea and conservatives get accused of it all the time of being anti-science.
00:32:48.740I think, sure, there's probably truth to that in the past, but, you know, I'm a conservative and I think that science is incredibly important.
00:32:58.060And I don't really understand the argument. Usually when people say like, oh, the Harper government was anti-science, it's like a quibble over funding or whether or not we have how many questions we ask on a census form and stuff like that.
00:33:11.900And I don't think that they're very sort of substantive, but we have seen this new attack on science coming from the left.
00:33:19.900And, you know, it's it's it's it's really unfortunate. And I think it's so important that we have people like yourself that call it out on both sides.
00:33:30.780I think I think you probably do call it out against conservatives when you see it as well.
00:33:37.060Yeah, I mean, I would still call myself a liberal. I'm certainly not far left.
00:33:41.380But this book is I mean, I do call it both sides, but I would say predominantly it's about calling out left leaning science denial,
00:33:46.860because when it comes to gender and gender ideology, left leaning science denial is definitely posing more of a threat right now in terms of influencing, like I mentioned,
00:33:57.080what kind of science is allowed to be done and what is allowed to be published and ultimately how we talk about these issues in our day to day lives.
00:34:06.000So I think within the field of sex research in particular, because the vast majority of sex researchers are liberals.
00:34:12.760Historically, the field has been dealing with interference coming from the right.
00:34:18.640And that's not to say that all conservatives have an issue with sex research.
00:34:21.580But I think when it's your own side, it's a bit disorienting because my colleagues are not used to dealing with it coming from their own side or they don't see it as as much of a threat.
00:34:34.240And and there's an assumption there that it's not as serious and it's going to go away eventually.
00:34:38.580It's not it's not going to actually gain any momentum, but that's definitely not the case.
00:34:43.700I mean, this is how we ended up where we are right now.
00:34:46.260And I definitely don't blame I don't blame, again, scientists for this because they're busy.
00:34:52.460They've got a million things going on.
00:34:54.080And who who could have predicted this?
00:34:55.800And I'm very blessed to be in a position where I can actually call this out, because if I were still affiliated with a scientific organization or an academic institution,
00:35:04.100I definitely would have would have lost my job as a result of that.
00:35:07.920But I do I do wish that more scientists were willing to speak up about it because, I mean, it's not going to get better until they do.
00:35:17.880Yeah, it seems like these sort of ideology just keeps growing and growing and growing.
00:35:21.960Like, to be honest, the first time I ever really remember hearing about the pronouns debate was with Jordan Peterson.
00:35:27.900And then what happened to Lindsay Shepard, who now works with me at True North.
00:35:32.760And I kind of remember thinking, OK, it's sort of weird to use they.
00:35:37.180I don't I can't I can't really picture myself doing that just because it doesn't make sense, like grammatically.
00:35:44.000But then when I started looking into I realized, OK, it's not just about like using she to describe a trans woman or he or they.
00:35:53.420It's like they have even more terms that are basically words I've never heard of before, like people that want to identify as she or she or something like that.
00:36:02.640And I've heard you say that you're you're happy to use people's preferred pronouns, which is just sort of like the polite thing to do.
00:36:09.780But do you draw a line like would you use someone's pronoun if they if they ask you to refer to them as as she or she or one of these sort of words that didn't exist in the English vocabulary like a couple of years ago?
00:36:23.480I as I've thought about this and I definitely have no issue using binary pronouns for a trans person who would identify as the opposite sex.
00:36:30.900I don't have an issue with using they, although I do criticize the non-binary movement and we can talk about that in terms of why I think we need to have there should be a more clear conversation around the non-binary friends, if I can call it that.
00:36:49.160But even for the pronouns that, you know, are are maybe not he, she or they, I will still use them.
00:36:57.260I think if that's what someone would like me to use, I do try to be respectful.
00:37:01.480I think in many cases, though, when it starts moving to that direction, it's a bit more about trying to signal yourself as being different or an individual.
00:37:09.880And it worries me when this sort of language is now being backed by, again, medical literature, scientific literature, when there's no science to back it up.
00:37:26.220Something like someone who's someone who's a transgender, but a binary sex that's backed by research, you know, gender dysphoria is backed by research, something like identifying as a third gender.
00:37:39.680I mean, there's so many beyond just non-binary.
00:37:42.360I mean, beyond, say, I mean, the most common ones would probably be gender fluid, gender queer.
00:37:49.800I generally don't like to use the word queer because I still consider that to be a slur against gay people, agender, bi-gender.
00:37:58.060I mean, all of these terms have no basis in science.
00:38:01.140I think in many cases it's there are other issues going on with the individual.
00:38:06.100You know, I've spoken before about how I think in many cases it's either gay people who have experienced homophobia and they are not comfortable with being gay.
00:38:13.180Or there are in many cases young women who do not want to identify as female.
00:38:18.660And as critical as I've been with of feminism, I do think on some level sexism does exist.
00:38:24.660I think it's an individual's choice what they choose to do with those experiences and whether it's going to be something that's going to shape you or something you say is going to motivate you to just overcome obstacles in your life.
00:38:35.780But I do think especially for young women who experience maybe negative interactions with people as a result of being female, they will identify now as non-binary or as a trans man because they don't want to experience that.
00:38:50.920And in other cases, I think it's people just trying to signal that they're progressive and it's considered ahead of the curve to some extent or it's a way of of fitting in with your peers.
00:39:04.100I guess if all your peers are identifying as a third gender, if you identify as male or female, that's considered antiquated.
00:39:12.060So that, yeah, that's basically my thoughts on that.
00:39:15.940Yeah, it's sort of just a trendy sort of way to signal that you're interesting and different.
00:40:15.860So with this tension, you see with trans people who have transitioned to a binary sex, so they go from one to the other,
00:40:28.100they will say, I don't have much in common with people who identify as non-binary because they aren't the same.
00:40:34.340But I think part of also what it is with this non-binary movement is it's for people to get some sort of social currency in terms of victimization or some sort of oppression.
00:40:50.580So they will lump themselves into the trans community.
00:40:54.840And we see this happening more and more now when people refer to trans.
00:40:58.620It's not just about people who have transitioned to a binary sex.
00:41:02.320It's now beginning to include non-binary people, gender non-conforming people.
00:41:11.340I mean, the underlying etiology is very different.
00:41:14.560And so, like you're saying, I mean, and I say this in the book, if gender is fluid and can change throughout the day or within the hour, as some people claim it does for them,
00:41:26.000how is that not an argument against transitioning?
00:41:28.880Because for someone who is unhappy with their birth sex, why can they not then be told, just wait it out until you feel differently?
00:41:38.040I do think, like I said, transitioning can be helpful for adults.
00:41:41.660And also for non-binary people in many cases, they don't, when their quote-unquote transition, they don't really do much besides take on new pronouns and maybe change their haircut and clothing.
00:41:53.960It's not like for someone who's, say, transgender and transitioning to a binary sex where they will undergo medical interventions.
00:42:01.580It's not something, like there's definitely more of an investment there.
00:42:06.740And I think also an emotional investment in terms of you are now living as the opposite sex.
00:42:14.240This is not something, like non-binary people, it just seems like it's like a fun thing that they're doing when you hear them talk about it.
00:42:20.660And I find that, I'm not transgender, but I would find that, I think, disrespectful for someone who has transitioned and undergone, you know, in some cases, a very challenging path.
00:42:32.380So, yeah, there's definitely more of a tension within the community.
00:42:36.660And I think people are rightful to be skeptical of it.
00:42:39.140Because now, if you criticize the non-binary movement, you get called transphobic.
00:42:43.640And I think this has nothing to do with trans people.
00:42:45.820Well, yeah, it's interesting, because obviously, if you are trans or if you're intersex and then decide to transition, it's a huge, life-changing, all-encompassing thing.
00:42:58.140And so then to see someone else who's sort of flippant about it and, like, it's like a fun trend.
00:43:03.380I mean, it's, like, good for them to have that attitude towards it.
00:43:06.300But at the same time, I can totally see how it is disrespectful.
00:43:10.640Well, let's get into what I thought was the sort of meat of the book.
00:43:14.800My favorite chapter, anyway, was about children with gender dysphoria and whether or not they should transition.
00:43:23.240And so I think you said in the book that you once supported transitioning for children.
00:43:28.380I think based on the logic that, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have a child who knows at an early age that they want to be the other sex or the other gender, I should say,
00:43:38.440that allowing them to go through puberty is irreversible and that it can stop them from becoming who they want to be, essentially.
00:43:47.680So if you transition pre-puberty, then that would prevent them from having to go through the awkward stage of going through puberty in what they think is the wrong body or the wrong sex.
00:43:58.960But that you change your mind about that.
00:44:01.660Maybe you can explain that better than I can.
00:44:03.320But what is your take on children and transitioning?
00:44:12.060I used to believe that early transitioning was the best way forward for kids with gender dysphoria because it superficially made sense to me that if you have this child who is really struggling,
00:44:22.960why wouldn't you want to help them in that way and especially to undergo medical interventions that would help prevent them having changes to their body that would be otherwise irreversible
00:44:37.640and would make it more difficult for them to live as the opposite sex.
00:44:41.420So that was my superficial understanding.
00:44:43.360And then once I started reading the research literature, I realized that, again, the vast majority of these children are going to desist.
00:44:53.760They're no longer going to be gender dysphoric by puberty.
00:44:56.900Usually what happens is they grow comfortable in their body.
00:44:59.520They start having crushes on their peers and they actually are quite happy.
00:45:04.180So for the kids who persist, I do think they should be allowed to begin, you know, whatever interventions are seen as appropriate for them.
00:45:16.840But I think a good clinician would say that that would be an appropriate course.
00:45:22.160However, it's next to impossible nowadays for clinicians to do their jobs properly in that way in terms of assessing whether transitioning will be beneficial for a child who has reached puberty.
00:45:34.860I would say even in the case of adults, I think it's extremely difficult for clinicians to even do a proper assessment for people with gender dysphoria who are, you know, well into an age where they can make these kinds of decisions.
00:45:49.720Because often there are other issues going on that can lead to them feeling unhappy about their gender.
00:45:55.720But with regard to the children and my change in my understanding.
00:45:59.840So the other thing is people will often say that a social transition is harmless and that it's easily reversible.
00:46:06.460And all you're doing is letting the kid wear whatever clothes they want, play with the toys they want.
00:46:11.040That's not true because you are actually treating that child as though they are the opposite sex.
00:46:15.540I am totally in favor of parents letting their kids play with whatever toys they want and having friends of the opposite sex and being, you know, gender nonconforming.
00:46:26.820That doesn't require them to live as the opposite sex because a social transition is associated with persistence.
00:46:34.280It's associated with going on and taking puberty blockers.
00:46:38.100Puberty blockers are associated with cross-sex hormones, you know, going on down the line.
00:46:42.320So it's not true, it's not factually accurate to say that a social transition is easy to reverse or that it's harmless because, I mean, this is what parents are being told.
00:46:54.380I don't blame them for obviously believing the professionals who are telling them this.
00:46:59.300But if you actually sit and read the studies and document all of this and I have all of the citations in the book, it's just not true.
00:47:06.740Well, again, it's just really interesting because, I mean, you're dealing with little kids, right?
00:47:12.760So they don't know what they're going to feel three, four years down the road.
00:47:17.380They can't kind of wrap their head around the idea of like how this could affect their body going forward, whether it affects their ability to have children or their ability to change their mind.
00:47:27.800That's when it gets like really dicey.
00:47:29.380And I think a lot of parents out there are rightfully concerned that it is an ideology that's being pushed.
00:47:36.440Maybe you can help break down the numbers a little bit.
00:47:39.500Just how prevalent is this sort of phenomenon?
00:48:11.860But there's been a switch now and it's predominantly now for children born female.
00:48:18.020We can talk a bit about rapid onset gender dysphoria as well, because that's another phenomenon that is really worrisome to me because we are seeing this huge influx of young women who are very suddenly wanting to transition to male or a third gender, when in many cases their issues have nothing to do with gender.
00:48:37.320And also with regards to the issue of clinicians not being able to do their job, here in Canada, we have Bill C-8 that criminalizes any therapeutic interventions that do not facilitate early transitioning.
00:48:54.000So essentially any child who is gender dysphoric or at all uncomfortable in their body, if they go to a mental health professional, they will be given, they'll be facilitated in transitioning.
00:49:55.360Gender identity is not the same as sexual orientation, because especially for young children, the way they feel about their gender can change with their development.
00:50:03.480So it's not appropriate to say that, not to call any therapeutic attempts at reconciling one's gender or the way a child feels in their birth sex, to call that conversion therapy, because it's not the same.
00:50:20.260But I think it's very clever marketing on the part of these activists, because they know that most people are not in favor of conversion therapy for sexual orientation.
00:50:31.520And so they've tacked on the gender identity aspect of it to this broader idea.
00:50:37.440And so, I mean, even in my work, people, when they see that I am opposed to conversion, so-called conversion therapy for gender identity, they are there a bit taken aback because to them, that's hateful.
00:50:50.700And then once you explain to them, no, it's not the same as sexual orientation.
00:50:54.000And in fact, what you see happening, so for these kids who are gender dysphoric, who identify more as the opposite sex, if they are facilitated in transitioning, so as I mentioned, most of these kids would grow up to be gay if they transition.
00:51:09.380So if you have a little boy who is very feminine, who is going to grow up to be attracted to men, if he transitions to female, when she grows up, she's going to appear to be a straight woman because she's going to be a woman attracted to men.
00:51:22.300So the really hypocritical and unfortunate thing is essentially this ban is conversion therapy, in my mind, because you are taking these children and you're making them straight by putting them down a course of transitioning.
00:51:36.960They're going to look heterosexual in adulthood.
00:51:40.240But I don't think the politicians have thought about this.
00:51:45.620I think it's really just about what seems to be the quote-unquote right thing to say in this climate.
00:51:51.180So the children will pay a price for that, unfortunately.
00:51:55.280It's so sad that little kids have to go through this.
00:51:58.860Just to pick up on something that you said, though, your scientific opinion is that sexual orientation is biological.
00:52:07.580So that would be like in the nurture nature debate, it's entirely based on nature, like Lady Gaga, I was born this way kind of thing.
00:52:15.960And so you would oppose any kind of therapy that someone would go to to try to change that, that it's totally immutable, that you can't change it.
00:52:25.480What about someone, though, who is bisexual or someone who is gay but didn't want to be gay?
00:52:30.340I mean, you would oppose therapy for them even as an adult or just for children?
00:52:39.920I don't like the idea of the government coming in and telling people what they, especially adults, telling them what they can or can't do.
00:52:46.840I would say, in my understanding of the scientific research, and chapter four of the book is dedicated to this, that sexual orientation cannot be changed.
00:52:56.780So if someone is uncomfortable with being gay or bisexual, I would say the best way for them would be maybe to speak to a therapist about why they're uncomfortable about that and maybe find ways of learning to accept that and appreciate that about themselves and not feel like they have to change that.
00:53:17.460I mean, I understand, and I write in the book about how I grew up in the gay community.
00:53:20.500And I see, I still see the discrimination that gay people face, but, you know, it's one of those things.
00:53:27.840It's just, it's not, it's not effective.
00:53:30.240If you do, there are some practitioners who do still practice conversion therapy for sexual orientation, which makes me very, very uncomfortable.
00:53:39.880I would just really advise against going down in that direction because it's not going to work.
00:53:45.260I think it will cause more harm than good.
00:53:49.420Yeah, I would, I would just sort of feel uncomfortable with the government saying you can or cannot have this kind of therapy if that's what you want.
00:53:56.380I mean, if, say you were bisexual and you were attracted to both, you were a man who was attracted to both men and women, but you chose that you wanted to have a traditional family and be a father and stuff like, you know, you could, you could go to therapy to help you.
00:54:10.760And that, that's not something that the same logic is applied to trans children who are clearly going through something, a major, you know, life issue.
00:54:22.460It just seems crazy that the government would tell you that you cannot engage in therapy without going down the path of transitioning, which is what I understand is the case now.
00:54:33.040Right. And I mean, in terms of bans for conversion therapy for sexual orientation for children.
00:54:39.920I mean, I think I have less of an issue if the government were to do that because one, it is more based in science and also because young children especially can't necessarily advocate for themselves.
00:54:50.480So if they do have a parent say, I mean, parents, I think are quite intuitive.
00:54:55.540They get a sense if they have a gender nonconforming child, there's a chance that child's going to grow up to be gay and that bothers some parents.
00:55:02.040And so they will, you know, this is, we've seen this in the past where parents will take their kids to these practitioners to try and convert them to be more gender conforming and to be straight, which I do not agree with.
00:55:12.960I always want to emphasize, I don't agree with that, but I have less, it makes me less uncomfortable.
00:55:17.020I have less of an issue if, say, there were policy in place to prevent that from happening because kids can't, they can't, you know, if a parent makes that decision for them, they really don't have much recourse.
00:55:31.380But I think as, you know, for adults, it's a little bit more concerning to me.
00:55:36.520And also with especially Bill C8, it's not scientific.
00:55:39.680I mean, that's ultimately what it comes down to.
00:55:41.240So scientists should be consulted on this, not activists.
00:55:49.540So, yeah, you have a situation where a lot of parents are really terrified because they might have a child who is gender nonconforming, like you say, or maybe just some of their friends.
00:56:00.280Like you talk about in your book about, and you just brought it up too, about rapid onset gender dysphoria and how it can happen.
00:56:08.240I mean, I know someone who, the child goes to a small private school and like half the kids in the class identify as, you know, non-binary or they're transitioning or they're trans.
00:56:19.480And it's like, how can you look at that situation and not see it as the environment that the child is in, where they're being encouraged to explore this or being led down that path by someone who is ideological?
00:56:32.760And so parents are stuck in this position where they just don't know what to do.
00:56:36.560So is that something that you've sort of encountered and maybe you can speak to that to concern parents who obviously love your children and want the best for them, but worry about an ideology that could potentially have terrible impact on the rest of their life?
00:56:51.520I've had so many parents reach out to me about this issue, both before the book came out and since the book has come out.
00:56:59.000Since the book has come out, I've been blown away by the number of parents and family members who have reached out to me.
00:57:05.380You know, I really feel for them because they're in a position where they really are at a loss because they're, if they are skeptical of their child wanting to transition, they're called all kinds of hateful names.
00:57:17.220Now we see, you know, legal policy is in favor of, of allowing the child to, to basically transition.
00:57:23.960And, um, I mean, I, I know, I know the truth is going to come out.
00:57:32.860And, um, it's difficult for me to, I find of the parents that I talked to, some of them are very much aware of this and they're, they're skeptical rightfully.
00:57:44.800There are other parents who go along with it.
00:57:47.920They're skeptical, but they also feel they don't have a choice.
00:57:51.380And so that chapter that you mentioned, chapter five, which is about gender transitioning children, I document, you know, all the advice that I would give to parents because I've had parents reach out to me sometimes when I would, when I used to do speaking engagements, they would come up and ask me questions at the end.
00:58:07.100I don't feel it's appropriate for me to tell a parent what they should or shouldn't do with their particular child, because, you know, in these cases, I've never met the child.
00:58:15.660And I also know that parenting decisions are very personal, but, um, yeah, in the book I do go through, you know, there are a number of things that activist groups will say, or even medical professionals will say.
00:58:27.500To try to sway a parent in one direction or another, um, things like saying your child is at a higher risk of suicide or they will commit suicide if they don't transition saying that this is due to greater social acceptance, which really doesn't make sense.
00:58:41.340Because why is it, we're seeing this predominantly in adolescent girls who are not gender non-conforming for the most part.
00:58:47.940Most of them are very female typical up until even days before they announced that they want to transition.
00:58:53.980So, yeah, that, that, I'm not sure if that answers your question, but that's, that's been my take on it when I step back a bit.
00:59:01.480Well, it's, it's really interesting because I think you're getting at that.
00:59:05.200There's, I mean, obviously, you know, when you're going through puberty, when a child's going through puberty, their body's changing.
00:59:11.340It's confusing and they feel uncomfortable.
00:59:14.600And so if you, if you take a little girl who's feeling uncomfortable with, with her puberty, and then at the same time, she's socially awkward, or perhaps she's on the autism spectrum somehow, it's like, these are all things that are pushing someone towards wanting to go down that route of being trans.
00:59:33.980But it's like, you know, what, what, what happens a couple of years later when they grow out of it and it's irreversible.
00:59:40.940So maybe we can talk a little bit about some of those cases that we're now seeing where someone has transitioned and now they want to go back and detransition or they experience regret is how prevalent is that?
00:59:53.540We don't yet know the numbers in terms of what has been documented in research, about 2% of people detransition.
01:00:05.440But again, this, the data for that study were collected years ago.
01:00:09.580So it's, it doesn't really apply to the young women and that we're seeing right now who are rushing to transition.
01:00:16.400But I, I definitely think it's going to be higher than 2%.
01:00:20.200We're seeing, you know, even in the UK, hundreds and hundreds of these girls are coming out in one county alone.
01:00:25.360And in a lot of cases, they're saying, I am on the autism spectrum.
01:00:58.500And it doesn't mean that it's not amazing to be women.
01:01:00.560And, and I, I just, I can't believe that no one is saying this to these, these girls or, you know, developing breasts.
01:01:07.700The double mastectomies are becoming so common now for, for young women who are identifying as male or who identify as a third gender.
01:01:18.220And I think it's, you know, I, my breasts are small, but of my girlfriends who have larger breasts, they will tell me that they, they hated their breasts when they first started developing.
01:01:29.200That it was something that they had to adjust to.
01:01:31.820And I, I, you know, once it's not as simple as having the surgery and then simply getting implants later, if that's what you decide, it's not the same.
01:01:42.940They sell it as though it's the same, they tell the parents it's the same, it's easily reversible, it's not the same.
01:01:49.140And, and as for these young women who are de-transitioners, so they were born female, they identified as male or third gender, and now they've gone back to, to identifying as female.
01:01:58.440They will say, I wish that medical professionals had asked me these questions.
01:02:03.620I wish they had not taken what I had said at face value.
01:02:06.040In some cases, these girls are getting prescriptions for testosterone after one, one hour appointment.
01:02:13.220They don't, you know, the practitioners do not do a proper assessment.
01:02:28.320And why aren't they getting proper assessments?
01:02:30.600Is it because the ideology is so prevalent that people who, by the time a child comes in to talk to a, presumably, you know, a trained professional, that it's just assumed that they are a trans person?
01:02:44.620Or why aren't they getting the right advice here?
01:02:48.380Because even the doctors believe that if they don't facilitate transitioning right away, that their patient is going to commit suicide.
01:02:56.060They've, they've, they've been intimidated and I think to some extent misled by activist groups that really are pushing this narrative.
01:03:04.840And this is not to say that, you know, I don't think, I do believe gender dysphoria is, you know, a legitimate condition.
01:03:12.720And I have a lot of empathy for people who are struggling with their gender.
01:03:17.960But I don't think the, the response to that is to go completely in this opposite direction.
01:03:24.880Because gatekeeping has been an issue in the past for trans people where they can't get access to the interventions and the care that they need and deserve.
01:03:33.220But now we've gone so far in the opposite direction where it's very much whatever someone says goes.
01:03:38.960And in many cases, this is not going to be the best case as we're, the best outcome as we're already seeing for these individuals.
01:03:45.380You're right. It seems like it's sort of coming from a place of kindness and trying to accommodate people that are different.
01:03:52.820But, you know, it's definitely seems like the spectrum has swung so far.
01:03:58.000It's so easy to transition. It's so easy to change your gender.
01:04:01.440I don't know if you remember a few years ago, Lauren Southern officially changed her gender.
01:04:05.820All she had to do was go into a doctor's office and claim that she wanted to be a boy.
01:04:11.100And then that, it was that, it was that easy.
01:04:12.600It was like she did it in an afternoon. And I mean, obviously she's an adult, but one of the things you talked about in your book as well,
01:04:20.000and you just brought it up with suicide is, is that that's something that's sort of almost being used to threaten parents.
01:04:26.040Like, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't you rather have a happy transgender little girl than a dead boy,
01:04:32.440which to me is like, as a parent, it's like the most evil thing you can say to a parent, that kind of guilt,
01:04:37.280like as if a parent doesn't care already. And that's something that they would want, like no parent wants anything like that for their child.
01:04:44.980But what is, what is the data surrounding suicide? Is it something that's, that's really a problem in the trans community?
01:04:51.160Well, there is one statistic, the 41% statistic of saying that trans adults, 41% of trans adults have attempted suicide,
01:05:02.140which I think we should take seriously. I mean, there, there are legitimate concerns there.
01:05:08.440Um, but I, I don't think, especially when it comes to the issue of whether children should be transitioning or not,
01:05:14.260it's not appropriate to take a statistic that pertains to adults and to apply that to children.
01:05:20.820Uh, that particular study, the researchers also mentioned how, um, they did not ask whether the individual was experiencing issues with their gender at the time of their suicide attempt.
01:05:32.400So we don't even know that, um, their suicide attempt had anything to do with gender dysphoria.
01:05:39.460Um, there's also, you know, likelihood that there was comorbidity. We don't know, but there, you know,
01:05:44.880one study showed that as many as 60% of people with gender dysphoria have some other psychiatric comorbidity.
01:05:51.760Um, I understand why people don't want to talk about these things because then it can be used in some cases for people to dismiss the concerns of someone who is,
01:06:00.760who has gender dysphoria to say, Oh, this person is just mentally ill. They don't know what they're talking about.
01:06:05.500I don't agree with that, but I do think we have to, again, look at this from a fact-based perspective,
01:06:10.620because if someone is struggling with something else and it's being expressed as gender, but it's not actually about their gender,
01:06:17.100well, if they transition, they're not going to feel better after it's not going to take care of whatever it is that they're struggling with.
01:06:23.240And, um, so yeah, definitely that suicide narrative is being used to emotionally blackmail parents.
01:06:30.760I don't blame the parents who, who allow their child to transition as a result of being told that,
01:06:35.140because I think that's what any parent would do. Um, but it's, that's definitely been a very powerful,
01:06:41.380I think tool in terms of why, why this has become so prevalent. And, and also that mental health professionals
01:06:49.180and doctors don't want to be called transphobic because they have to worry about that too. They
01:06:54.420have to worry about potentially losing their license if they don't facilitate this, but they
01:06:58.100also have to worry about activist groups going after them and saying that they're hateful and
01:07:02.440transphobic. Um, it's not a good look for them either. So, uh, it, yeah, it's just, it's just completely
01:07:08.880inappropriate. The fact that children, I feel they're being used in this way to further a particular
01:07:13.900agenda. Well, and it's like a minefield trying to navigate it because again, most people,
01:07:19.540most people out there are just, you know, decent people. They want to do the right thing. They
01:07:23.540don't want anyone to suffer. They want equal rights and they want everyone to be protected and everyone
01:07:28.000to feel included. But then, you know, at some point it's like, well, wait a minute. I mean, this,
01:07:33.760this is just not right. And, and like you say, for both, uh, little girls and little boys that
01:07:41.080want to transition at that moment, you know, if, if, if, if you just wait that, that, that phase
01:07:46.920might change, it might turn out to be, like you said that I think, I think you said that most males
01:07:54.080who want to transition, if they don't, they just end up kind of becoming comfortable and becoming
01:07:58.920gay men. So the idea of forcing them to transition would be sort of a slight against gay men or, or
01:08:07.100saying that it's not okay to be gay. So you see a homophobia come into that as well. Um,
01:08:13.040what are, are there any other sort of, um, clashes that you see between these different groups or is
01:08:17.460that sort of the main one? I would, I want to add actually with regards to gay men, I've had so many
01:08:23.420gay men reach out to me over the years saying that they thought about transitioning and they read an
01:08:30.000article or they saw a video of me talking and they decided to wait. And now they're happy that they did
01:08:34.620because they're happy as gay men and they're out to everyone in their life. And so that means a lot
01:08:39.300to me when I hear that, because it, it gives me some reassurance that I'm doing the right thing.
01:08:43.800Cause I do try to, to step back every once in a while and ask myself, am I still making sense?
01:08:48.620You know, I obviously don't want to make life more difficult for, for the trans community or for
01:08:53.380anyone who is experiencing gender dysphoria. Um, but in terms of that tension, I mean, I'm always amazed when I
01:09:00.360see, how shall I say this gay men who are, you know, very open about being gay, but they will
01:09:10.620defend childhood transitioning. Um, there are a number of public figures who have done this. And
01:09:15.060I just think, uh, I don't know if they realize what they're doing or how harmful it is. I think
01:09:21.780in many cases, maybe these individuals have forgotten how much they are like these kids,
01:09:25.540because for many, um, especially boys with gender dysphoria, when they grow up, they forget like
01:09:30.540research has shown that they will forget that they once wanted to be girls when they were young.
01:09:34.800So maybe that's it. I think at best, but, uh, you know, I have a line in the book talking about
01:09:39.880how this, I'm amazed because it is leading to essentially the extermination of gay children.
01:09:43.920And it's like, these gay adults don't seem to have a problem with that. I don't think they
01:09:47.800represent most in the gay community because I have, I have many people, trans adults and gay adults
01:09:52.840who reach out to me saying they agree with me, but it's at the end of the day, I think it comes
01:09:57.780down to individuals who are really looking to build their own platforms and get social
01:10:04.740accolades and move their career forward. And so they really don't care at the end of the day,
01:10:09.540who gets pushed under the bus as a result. Yeah. It'll be interesting to sort of keep an eye
01:10:14.780on the LGBT. I don't know what, it feels like the letters are constantly changing or they're
01:10:20.800always adding new ones or depending on whether you're reading something that's Canadian or
01:10:24.440American, they have like different letters at the end, but the, the, the sort of tensions
01:10:28.660between them. Cause I know you talked a little bit in the book about, um, feminism and how
01:10:33.940sort of, there's a, a big divide between, uh, you know, whether or not a trans, someone who
01:10:40.780transitions to become a woman can actually be a woman. Obviously biologically they can't,
01:10:45.180but then, you know, they're able to, you can't even say that now though.
01:10:48.360Okay. Well, I, I, I mean, I, I, I, I wouldn't be afraid of it, but yeah, I, I get, I get that
01:10:53.880like a lot of people get canceled just for making that very basic statement that, I mean, even,
01:10:59.100you know, biologically, it's almost like a, an obvious statement, but it's, it's politically
01:11:04.240controversial these days. But I think one of the things that I would be concerned about, and
01:11:08.940this is sort of starting to happen more and more where you see a trans person in a woman's locker
01:11:14.000room and it's just sort of weird. And a lot of women feel uncomfortable about it, but they're
01:11:19.120afraid to speak out. And it's like, you know, the idea that we have women only spaces supposed to be
01:11:24.360to protect women. You know, if you're, if you're changing in after, after going to the gym or
01:11:29.280something like that. Um, and, and a concern could be, especially if there's little, little girls in
01:11:33.460there. Uh, but, but then I think there's another issue, Debra, which is, uh, sports and, and, and
01:11:39.260women who, you know, want to play like competitive soccer. Um, but they have to compete against
01:11:44.900someone who is biologically male, you know, who's transitioned. And one of the things I think was
01:11:50.760interesting was supposed to be the Tokyo Olympics coming up. They, they had a new statement, a new
01:11:55.440policy on transgender athletes where they were under, under some circumstances going to be able to
01:12:01.000compete. And I think that that would have been pretty jarring for the public to see. And, and it
01:12:05.020would have brought this debate much more into the forefront, but of course those Olympics got, uh,
01:12:09.260postponed or canceled, but, um, maybe you can just quickly address the issue of, um, transgender
01:12:14.900athletes and the sort of, uh, the, the tension between feminists and trans, trans people.
01:12:23.700Right. So I have that chapter talking about whether, uh, trans women are no different
01:12:30.900from women who were born women. And I do in the chapter talk about differences, but I do want
01:12:35.700to emphasize that I don't think those differences should be used to hold back trans rights. I don't
01:12:40.340think they should be used to discriminate against trans people or trans women, but in some cases,
01:12:44.940no, these differences are important. Like as you're mentioning in competitive sports or, you know,
01:12:50.080say I love mixed martial arts. If they can have a serious consequences for competitors,
01:12:55.400if, if we overlook these differences, it can feel, I mean, even when I talk about this issue,
01:13:00.360I feel it, it can be seen as insensitive because it's as though we are saying to a trans person who
01:13:07.380they really are or how they should be seen. And that's not my intention. Um, but again, I'm coming
01:13:12.720from a scientific perspective and saying, if we ignore these differences, and I think most in the
01:13:18.220public know that these differences exist to shut that down and pretend that they don't exist,
01:13:24.160you lose credibility and it alienates people from the cause of wanting to advocate for trans rights
01:13:29.080and for equality. So with regards to sports, I mean, it is so contentious. Like you're saying,
01:13:34.540those guidelines for the Olympics, they were at last reported, still basically deciding what they
01:13:41.920were going to be, because I guess it's so difficult to come to an agreement because of, of how,
01:13:46.340how controversial it is. And I feel like I feel for them because I think no matter what they do,
01:13:51.460people are, someone is going to get upset. Some group somewhere is going to get upset and say
01:13:54.880either you didn't do enough or you've gone too far. Um, the tension between feminists and trans
01:14:00.040activists. So it depends what kind of feminists, because, um, radical feminists are very skeptical
01:14:05.300of this idea that, uh, someone who is trans should be considered the opposite sex. So I'm not a radical
01:14:12.260feminist. I don't want to speak for them, but in my understanding, someone who was born male and
01:14:16.700identifies as female can never be female. They will always be male, which would be correct from a,
01:14:23.520from a biologically speaking standpoint. I don't have an issue referring to a trans woman as a woman
01:14:29.920using, you know, she calling her, she using the name she'd like me to use. But again, I, there are
01:14:36.680differences there. Um, whereas say for, for radical feminists, they, they very much say, no, trans women
01:14:42.900are not women. So I don't agree with them in that. Um, whereas say they're kind of like a different
01:14:50.640kind of woman. Like you, you can, it's like, it's just hard to say, like, it's almost like a case by
01:14:56.360case basis, but there are some men that you could just tell their men, no, you know, no matter what
01:15:01.880they do, they're big, they, you know, they have broad shoulders and just, you know, for someone like
01:15:07.620that, it's, it's hard to say, okay, that, that person is going to be a woman beat just because they
01:15:12.380transitioned. And I know obviously it's, it's really difficult, but I just have a hard time
01:15:17.880kind of roughing my head around the idea that, that someone who could be a large male wanting
01:15:24.800to compete against women in sports. That's something that we should, that we should just
01:15:28.680say, okay, that's, that's fine. Well, I would say, I mean, I understand where the, the concern is
01:15:35.440coming from for people who say it should be fair because, um, you know, I don't necessarily
01:15:40.280fault to fault an individual who may be physically larger, who may look a certain way because
01:15:45.300in some cases, maybe they, they can't help that. But I guess it's because if we were to
01:15:50.740say you cannot compete with women, then we're essentially telling them again, who they are
01:15:54.840and that they aren't really who they say they are. But the other side of that, which, which
01:15:58.840I, you know, I argue in the book is that it's not fair and it's not fair for, for, especially
01:16:04.160in competitive sports, for women who've in some cases have been working their entire lives
01:16:08.340for these opportunities and, and they're basically being told that they should just suck it up
01:16:12.860and work harder. That's how can you, how can you say that to somebody? So, I mean, I feel
01:16:18.260this is one issue where people are a little bit more willing to be vocal, you know, they'll
01:16:23.580be quiet about talking about women's spaces or transitioning and children or gender neutral
01:16:31.700language. But sports is one area where people get very, very upset and they say that is, they
01:16:36.920have a problem with this. So I say, if you have a problem with it, it's good to speak
01:16:41.060up about it. And I think that guidelines should be taken into account. You know, I get that
01:16:45.620for trans people, sport is not just about the competitive aspect and about it being a meritocracy,
01:16:50.800but it's also about that sense of community and people, you know, in some cases just want
01:16:55.820to be able to go out and have fun and feel like they're being recognized as they would like
01:17:01.420to be recognized and just get on with their business. I think that's the average trans
01:17:04.920person. When you take it to the level of competitive sports and it's becoming a political statement,
01:17:09.320that's a little bit different. But my, my general approach is that it really depends on what realm
01:17:15.820we're speaking of. You know, I think sports are different from prison and that should be different
01:17:19.680from say bathrooms or, um, you know, we, I also talk about sexual preferences and our sexual preferences
01:17:27.660considered transphobic nowadays. So, um, yeah, I just, I just think people should be less afraid
01:17:34.780to talk about this more broadly because I feel like everyone is, is stepping, is, is just afraid
01:17:42.500of being targeted next for saying the wrong thing and everyone is terrified. And again, if you're,
01:17:48.220if you're coming from a fact-based perspective, a lot of people are going to agree with you and
01:17:52.960they're going to tell you that they agree with you. Uh, absolutely. Well, uh, you're definitely
01:17:57.700one of the people that do speak out about it. And I think your book helps provide clarity because
01:18:03.340again, it's, it's, it's not only is it a confusing issue because of all the terminology and the
01:18:08.560different sort of new words that are, a lot of them are really ideological, uh, but it's also new
01:18:13.700and, and it's not something that people were even exposed to a couple of years ago. So a lot of
01:18:18.380people who might be intimidated by the issue, I think they could read your book and, and, and,
01:18:22.580and learn a lot about it. I'll just ask you one final question, Deborah, on the topic of your book.
01:18:27.880What, what, what do you see happening down the road? I mean, with kids transitioning or being pushed
01:18:33.420towards it and, and, and sort of, you know, scientists being afraid of, of, of putting out
01:18:38.420factual information. And so because of that, it's more inundated with ideology and, and, and again,
01:18:44.700just this chill of cancel culture and political correctness, like where, where are we headed and,
01:18:48.900and what, what do you predict will happen in the next five years?
01:18:52.860I think there's going to be a huge wave of children detransitioning. It's going to be really
01:18:58.360awful. And I see a lot of the people who are pushing this right now, playing dumb and saying,
01:19:04.720oh, we had no idea this was going to happen. This is so terrible. Who could have predicted this
01:19:09.240when those of us who are calling it out are being called by them, uh, transphobic,
01:19:14.880we're being called hateful and bigoted. So I really hope anyone that's been following this
01:19:19.400conversation, hold those people accountable when that happens, because they're going to deflect the
01:19:24.540blame and, and pretend as though there was no indication that this was, was coming. Um, I think
01:19:30.480for, you know, how children are being targeted with education, they're being taught these ideas
01:19:35.360in their curriculum. They're going to be extremely confused as they get older, because a lot of the
01:19:40.740ideas they're being told don't make any sense. There's something very basic, like say in Ontario,
01:19:45.360the sex ed curriculum, and I am in favor of comprehensive sex ed. I always want to make sure
01:19:50.240that I'm clear about that. My issue is when the gender ideology starts coming in, comprehensive sex
01:19:55.200ed is actually more, uh, effective than abstinence only sex education in terms of preventing,
01:20:00.840um, unwanted pregnancy and, and children, not children, not children. I take that back, but
01:20:06.540young adults are more likely to use protection and make better decisions about their sexual health
01:20:11.840with comprehensive sex ed. But the gender ideology has no business being there. And, you know, they're,
01:20:17.800the kids are being taught things like sexual orientation and gender identity, gender expression
01:20:23.160and anatomy have nothing to do with one another. Um, and that, like you were saying, sexual orientation is
01:20:28.140a spectrum, it's fluid, all these nonsensical ideas. So as these kids get older, they're going to,
01:20:34.660they're not going to have any sort of realistic understanding of the world around them, or how to relate
01:20:39.120to other people, because everything they've been told is factually inaccurate. I have a chapter in the
01:20:44.200book dedicated to sex differences and sex and dating. And I think this is, this is going to be even bigger
01:20:49.580of a problem because young people especially have, are so confused when it comes to if they're straight
01:20:56.020interacting with the opposite sex and how a lot of this ideology is quite damaging, I think, in terms
01:21:01.120of, um, how we relate to each other, both not just in the bedroom, but just more broadly. And also,
01:21:08.920I think science as a whole is, is, has been taken hostage and that's only going to get worse because
01:21:13.520we see more and more activism is just destroying these disciplines.
01:21:17.540All right. Well, I, I don't want to keep you much, one, one, one final question. What did you have
01:21:23.400any advice for parents? So say, you know, your child is going through the sex education and I agree
01:21:29.420with you that, that it's, it's more important to have sexual education than allowing kids to kind of
01:21:34.600go find their own knowledge out on the internet or wherever, where it might not be, uh, very accurate.
01:21:40.640It's, it's, it's better to teach them in class, but obviously it needs to be based on,
01:21:44.780on fact and not on ideology. Uh, so, you know, if, if, if, if a child is being taught something
01:21:50.440in school, like, you know, the idea that the, the, that there's this gender unicorn that's coming
01:21:55.540from the UK schools where they're teaching you that you can be any number of, of children or,
01:21:59.980uh, CBC kids had, had a story that was talking about how JK Rowling was trans, uh, transphobic. I
01:22:06.560mean, when, when the ideology seeps into, to, to teaching little kids as, as a parent, like what,
01:22:11.760what can you do if you see that happening to your child in their school?
01:22:14.780I would say number one, be aware because in a lot of cases, the parents don't even know,
01:22:21.040oh, this is what the kids are being taught. Sometimes it's not formally documented because
01:22:25.540teachers from my understanding do have some wiggle room in terms of, in terms of what they actually
01:22:29.440do want to teach the kids. So be aware. Um, and if it comes down to it, don't feel bad about taking
01:22:36.640your kids out of those classes, keeping them home. I've had colleagues do that. Um, another,
01:22:42.660one of the reasons I wrote the book is to offer parents, a resource in terms of the scientific
01:22:46.800studies showing exactly why these ideas are false. So something like, uh, gender is a spectrum.
01:22:53.620If you go to the administration and say, this is not fact-based, they'll pull up materials from
01:22:58.480activist groups and say, yes, it is because look at, this is what, you know, they say is,
01:23:02.740is the newest science quote unquote. So this is why we're teaching this. So as a parent, you can
01:23:07.620take the studies in the, in my book and say, no, this is, this is why what you're teaching
01:23:12.460the kids is false because otherwise you really have no way of combating it because they'll just
01:23:17.080say, well, the newest science shows this. So this is, this is what we're going with.
01:23:22.300Well, maybe they can pick up a copy of your book and, and bring that into the, uh, into the schools
01:23:27.260if, if they need to push back, uh, Dr. Dever, so it's been such a pleasure having you on, uh,
01:23:32.240maybe let our, let our viewers know where they can find you, where they can read your stuff
01:23:35.720and, uh, where, where to go. I'm on Twitter at Dr. Deborah. So, and I'm on Instagram at Dr. Deborah
01:23:42.900W. So I write a monthly column for the Globe and Mail. Um, if you want to see all the different
01:23:48.380myths, uh, in the end of gender, you can go to my website, which is Dr. Deborah. So.com
01:23:53.460slash book, and you can get the end of gender on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble. Great. Well,
01:23:59.860it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining the True North Speaker series.