The Candice Malcolm Show - Ep. 16 ｜ Dr. Debora Soh ｜ Are we witnessing the end of gender？

00:00:00.000 They see science as something that was created by quote-unquote white men, or that it's sexist or transphobic.

00:00:07.220 And so their methods really, they have nothing really to do with statistics or numbers at all.

00:00:12.160 It's very much theories that have no support for them.

00:00:15.840 Are we witnessing the end of gender? Is gender merely a social construct?

00:00:20.620 Most Canadians would likely shake their head and roll their eyes to these kinds of questions.

00:00:25.280 Of course gender is real, of course men and women are different, 0.97

00:00:28.620 and of course there are only two genders.

00:00:31.520 But as I learned in this interview, there is an ideological cadre,

00:00:35.480 not only pushing pseudoscientific claims that gender is not real,

00:00:39.420 that men can be women and women can be men,

00:00:41.580 but also trying to ruin the careers and livelihoods of anyone who says otherwise.

00:00:47.180 While woke politicians and celebrities have jumped onto this bandwagon,

00:00:51.040 and now demand that you ignore everything you know to be true about biological sex and gender,

00:00:55.600 individuals who stand up for the truth are getting cancelled on a regular basis.

00:01:01.780 But what does the scientific literature say about biology, sex, gender,

00:01:05.800 and those who don't fit into black and white categories?

00:01:08.920 My guest today on the True North Speaker series is Dr. Deborah So.

00:01:13.300 Dr. So is a journalist, columnist, author, and former biological sex researcher from Toronto.

00:01:19.040 She holds a PhD from York University, and her writing has appeared in the Wall Street Journal,

00:01:24.460 The Globe and Mail, Scientific American, Playboy magazine, and many other publications.

00:01:29.800 Dr. So is a scientist, and she takes an evidence-based approach to her research.

00:01:34.680 She is known for bravely and often defiantly presenting the facts,

00:01:38.700 speaking the truth, and standing up to the ideological forces by debunking the myths about sex and gender.

00:01:45.420 In our conversation today, Dr. So and I discuss her new book,

00:01:50.040 The End of Gender, debunking the myths about sex and identity in our society.

00:01:54.560 And we talk about some of the biggest myths being pushed by activists.

00:01:58.220 We also talk about the harsh realities for trans people that are rarely discussed,

00:02:02.780 her advice for parents dealing with gender ideology in the classroom,

00:02:06.480 and how we as a society need to stand up for the truth

00:02:09.560 and push back against anti-scientific propaganda.

00:02:13.200 I hope you enjoy our conversation.

00:02:15.420 Please like this video, share it with friends and family, and leave me a comment below.

00:02:19.880 Don't forget to subscribe to True North, and if you'd like to support this podcast,

00:02:23.980 please visit tnc.news slash donate.

00:02:37.520 Well, Dr. Deversau, thank you so much for joining the True North Speaker Series.

00:02:40.860 Thank you so much for having me.

00:02:43.420 Yeah, it's great to have you.

00:02:44.540 I feel like we've been trying to coordinate this for a while,

00:02:46.520 and I'm really excited that you put out this book, The End of Genders,

00:02:50.580 so that we can sort of put a whole bunch of the myths to rest around gender ideology. 0.86

00:02:55.540 I feel like it's an issue that's so popular right now,

00:02:58.740 and it's such a breath of fresh air to have someone just laying to rest all these myths.

00:03:04.000 So congratulations on the book.

00:03:05.800 Thank you.

00:03:06.520 Thanks so much.

00:03:07.840 So I kind of want to find out a little bit about you before we get into the book.

00:03:12.460 So you're based in Toronto.

00:03:14.520 Tell us a little bit about your background and how you ended up doing this stuff.

00:03:18.260 So my background is as an academic sex researcher.

00:03:23.180 So in the book, I do talk about how I went from being a sex scientist to a journalist

00:03:28.360 and then moving into political commentary.

00:03:30.780 So I really thought at the time that I was going to be a scientist pretty much until the end of my career.

00:03:36.200 And I noticed toward the end of my PhD that there were certain topics that were becoming increasingly seen as controversial.

00:03:44.380 Even experts in the field didn't want to touch them.

00:03:46.600 One issue in particular had to do with transitioning in young children, so gender transitioning.

00:03:52.820 So pretty much all of the mainstream news coverage at the time was saying for these children who say they're born in the wrong body,

00:03:59.840 the best way forward for them would be an early transition.

00:04:03.260 So usually changing their name, changing their haircut, either growing their hair long or cutting it or wearing different clothes.

00:04:09.800 But from a scientific perspective, all of the research literature shows that the vast majority of kids who are gender dysphoric

00:04:16.220 they are more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood, not be transgender.

00:04:20.840 And these feelings of dysphoria desist by puberty.

00:04:24.800 So they tend to remit on their own.

00:04:27.540 So at the time, you know, this was considered, I mean, it's still considered really contentious to talk about, to discuss it.

00:04:33.540 I wrote an op-ed about this because I felt very strongly that the public should hear about it,

00:04:37.900 especially parents who were being basically intimidated by activists and told that this is the only way forward for their children.

00:04:43.600 Otherwise, their child's going to commit suicide if they don't transition, which is not true.

00:04:47.600 So I wrote this op-ed.

00:04:49.080 I waited about six months.

00:04:50.220 I didn't know if I wanted to publish it.

00:04:51.640 I asked a number of my mentors and colleagues what they thought I should do.

00:04:54.900 And they were very supportive of me, but they told me, essentially, you know, you know what's going to happen.

00:04:59.800 And my choice was, essentially, did I want to publish it or, I mean, I knew that if I did so, I'd probably have to leave academia.

00:05:06.600 So that was my choice.

00:05:08.640 I was very fortunate.

00:05:09.680 I became a weekly columnist for Playboy.com shortly thereafter.

00:05:13.060 And then I wrote this book.

00:05:14.940 So here we are.

00:05:15.880 And I have not looked back for one second.

00:05:17.920 And I don't at all.

00:05:19.200 I miss the field of sex research, but I also don't, I don't think I would have lasted very long if I had ended up staying.

00:05:26.800 Just with the way things have been going, the climate has become even more politicized, more polarized.

00:05:34.960 And as we see any expert, any scientist who tries to go against particular narratives, especially when it comes to gender, when it comes to trans orthodoxy, they really pay a price for doing so.

00:05:46.480 Well, it's interesting.

00:05:47.340 So you grew up in Toronto, and is that right?

00:05:51.440 You're from Toronto?

00:05:52.740 Mm-hmm.

00:05:53.540 And so what was it initially, though, that made you want to go into sex research and become a scientist?

00:06:00.600 It's sort of an atypical career field.

00:06:04.120 I don't know if there are a lot of women that go into this field of research, but what brought you there in the first place? 1.00

00:06:10.900 Part of the goal of my career is to bring more awareness to sexology, which is the scientific study of sex and gender.

00:06:20.620 I do want it to be seen as a legitimate science because it is.

00:06:24.280 I think sex remains quite stigmatized in our society.

00:06:27.400 In the book, I talk very much about how I'm sex positive.

00:06:29.440 I don't think there should be any shame or guilt around sex or talking about sex.

00:06:34.940 So for me, I just happened to stumble upon a placement during graduate school, and I loved it.

00:06:41.000 I didn't know such a thing as sex research existed, but at the time, I was doing brain imaging research.

00:06:44.960 And that it was such a new way of looking at the field.

00:06:50.040 And I also felt it was so relevant to so much of who we are as human beings and understanding our own behavior.

00:06:58.100 And as I learned more about it, I realized also that it challenged so many ideas I had.

00:07:02.660 So, you know, when I was, I still would consider myself very much in favor of gender equality.

00:07:06.420 I've distanced myself from the label of feminist, but I used to be very much a really hardcore feminist.

00:07:11.360 There were a number of things I believed very strongly that I felt were tied to being an independent, free-thinking woman that I realized were not actually based in science, not based in fact at all.

00:07:22.160 So I think that was part of also a shift for me intellectually from feminist dogma to science and sexology.

00:07:29.840 And that's probably also part of what my interest was in suddenly realizing all of these things I thought were true or not true.

00:07:35.740 And here is a source that is actually educating me and teaching me what the truth is.

00:07:40.820 But I would definitely say it's rare, I guess.

00:07:45.620 It's more rare when you think of what people tend to do if they want to go into the science and especially, you know, being Asian.

00:07:50.840 My parents at first didn't really understand what I was doing, but they're very happy for me now, very supportive.

00:07:56.460 So did you come from sort of a strict background and family or were your parents pretty open-minded?

00:08:02.200 Pretty open-minded.

00:08:03.560 Yeah.

00:08:04.000 Yeah.

00:08:04.260 They've been great.

00:08:05.160 I mean, I think for any parent, I mean, I also my change to journalism, any parent, I mean, not many people go in, do a PhD in science and then completely change fields when they finish.

00:08:17.440 But yeah, I've been very fortunate in that way.

00:08:19.180 I've also worked really hard.

00:08:20.300 So I think that's part of it also to show any, everyone, you know, that I think it's easy to, to be skeptical when people say they want to change career trajectories.

00:08:32.280 But I've just, I'm very, I guess, stubborn in wanting to prove people wrong.

00:08:37.840 Well, that's great.

00:08:38.640 It's interesting because in your book, you make the distinction between sex research, which is a science, and sort of gender studies or feminist studies, which are sort of more, I guess, social sciences or not really science at all.

00:08:52.760 So can you just very quickly explain the sort of difference between the two fields?

00:08:56.800 Right. And, and sometimes you will see people talking as though they are sexologists or they're talking about the quote unquote science of sex, but it's not, it's very much ideological.

00:09:06.860 So the difference between a discipline like sexology, which is science-based, it's empirically based, it's very much about the scientific method and conducting very rigorous studies.

00:09:18.520 Ideally, when you do a scientific study, you go in with your, your hypotheses, but you design your study in a way that you're going to try and get as close of an approximation to the truth as possible.

00:09:28.880 And you're not going to design your study in a way to fulfill whatever you think the outcome might be.

00:09:35.080 You're open to whatever you find essentially, whereas, and it's quantitative methods that are used.

00:09:41.440 So this, these are numbers, you know, it's very much about accuracy and precision versus fields like it.

00:09:49.980 I, I hesitate to throw any particular disciplines under the bus, but I guess I do in the books.

00:09:54.280 So I might as well do it here as well. Something like, um, gender studies or, uh, anything with the word studies in its discipline title is suspect in my mind, because again, not all scholars in those fields are necessarily ideological, but many of them will say they are not in favor of science.

00:10:13.560 They're not in favor of the scientific method.

00:10:15.960 They see science as something that was created by quote unquote white men or that it's sexist or transphobic.

00:10:22.240 And so their methods really, they have nothing really to do with statistics or numbers at all.

00:10:27.800 It's very much theories that have no support for them.

00:10:31.720 And oftentimes, I mean, it's completely nonsensical if you tried to read their papers and they're not really interested in any sort of rigor or debate.

00:10:41.440 It's very much about my sense is it's about whatever social change they're seeking to employ.

00:10:47.000 And then they work backwards and their so-called papers, um, support those ideas because they're more interested in whatever change their social or political agenda they're, they're seeking to fulfill.

00:11:00.820 It's not about actually getting an understanding of what reality is.

00:11:03.780 So I, I'm not in favor of those disciplines.

00:11:06.180 I think if they were to be more open to whatever they were to find, or if they were less, because they act as though they offer some sort of, um, some sort of adequate replacement for science because they're trying to essentially be rid of scientific disciplines and say that their way is the best way forward.

00:11:26.060 But it's not even close to adequate as a replacement because, again, it's completely based in nonsensical ideas that have been unproven.

00:11:36.280 So that's, that's my issue with that.

00:11:38.060 And I would say for people who, because when studies come out, what we're seeing now is more of this ideology is coming into actual scientific studies that are published, which is very worrisome to me because understandably, you know, most people are busy.

00:11:50.780 They don't have time to go digging and read these studies and see who are the authors and figure out, is this a legitimate scientific study or not.

00:11:57.660 But in the book, I do offer some pointers in terms of what to look for to determine whether a study is legitimate or if it is something that is basically biased.

00:12:07.760 Yeah, it's so interesting because so, I mean, it's been a while for me since I was in university, but I studied political science and economics and, you know, that they, they rely a little bit on data.

00:12:17.320 But then I also took a bunch of sociology courses and that was where I sort of had the kind of run in with the Marxism and sort of postmodernist ideology that is really rammed down your throat in a lot of social science courses.

00:12:32.260 I had a lot of Marxist professors and I kind of thought, OK, this is just happening in social sciences.

00:12:38.180 The hard sciences are safe.

00:12:39.580 Like, that's a place where they pursue, like, pure knowledge and use a scientific method and the problem of ideology doesn't exist there.

00:12:48.180 But it seems like just over the last, like, maybe five, ten years, it really has creeped into the sciences where, to your point, you can't, you can't really trust whether or not a study is accurate because you don't know if the authors are being ideological.

00:13:02.720 In your book, you have a couple of examples of sort of peer-reviewed papers that came out that basically got pulled because they pushed a controversial idea, you know, about whether or not, like, men and women have different brains and these kind of things.

00:13:19.620 Did you worry that hard sciences and things like biology are just not going to be trustworthy, you know, in the next five, ten years?

00:13:27.420 I do worry about that.

00:13:30.480 And I would go one step further and say it's beyond something like biology being seen as not trustworthy.

00:13:35.860 It's just no one's going to want to do any research in these fields because they're all being taken out.

00:13:41.600 The studies are being pulled and the individual professors are being targeted.

00:13:45.360 I think the reason we got to this point is because, you know, being an academic in the sciences is extremely competitive.

00:13:53.480 You know, they're working 70 plus hours a week.

00:13:56.600 They don't have time to be dealing with mobs on social media or be dealing with all of this political interference.

00:14:04.620 I mean, and also when once you get to that point, you're very focused on your work.

00:14:08.740 You're very passionate about your work and you just want to do good science.

00:14:11.980 I mean, I can't speak for everyone in the field, but that's that's my sense.

00:14:14.700 And so I think there's this sense that being a good scientist will prevail.

00:14:19.420 And unfortunately, that's just not how it is now.

00:14:22.000 And that's not how it is culturally, where people who are completely anti-science actually do have a say in terms of what science is being produced and who gets a voice, even if they aren't an expert in the field.

00:14:33.440 And we see this very much with activists who have, in some cases, absolutely no understanding of these scientific disciplines or even what the paper that was published said.

00:14:42.420 And yet they have the power to have it retracted, which to me should never happen.

00:14:47.880 So I think because legitimate scientists are so busy, they're preoccupied with their work.

00:14:52.040 And I think in some senses, maybe a little bit idealistic in terms of thinking that because they're doing good work, that's really what matters.

00:14:59.960 This is why we see this happening now where activism has become so entrenched.

00:15:03.920 And now it is actually affecting the kind of knowledge that's being produced.

00:15:08.200 So you were in academia and you felt like the culture was just pushing one way that was so far from the research and the data that you were seeing sort of in your own research, that that's sort of what prompted you to decide to speak out and leave academia.

00:15:26.000 Have you what was sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back or what was it that pushed you over the edge to say, OK, I can't I can't be in academia anymore.

00:15:35.520 I have to go in and speak to the public and become a journalist.

00:15:39.800 I would say it was probably when that op ed was published.

00:15:43.040 I was mobbed pretty badly on social media.

00:15:45.040 That was my first mobbing.

00:15:46.140 But I have to say for anyone who's afraid of being mobbed on social media, once you survive the first one, the rest of them are quite literally a walk in the park, as I'm sure you know that.

00:15:56.660 And I think also because I knew what was coming, I was prepared mentally and emotionally for it.

00:16:01.140 So I was able to withstand it a bit better than, you know, I've seen some of my colleagues who get mobbed and they really weren't expecting it.

00:16:07.760 And and it leaves them quite shaken after.

00:16:09.880 I mean, I think there are some some legitimate psychological effects as a result of of being attacked so viciously.

00:16:17.320 I mean, just because it's online doesn't mean it's not real to some extent.

00:16:20.900 But I think what what I see happening is for some of us who go through that, we just become emboldened and say, you can't stop me.

00:16:27.740 I'm going to keep speaking the truth.

00:16:29.280 It doesn't you're not going to to bully me into being quiet, whereas other people really have a bad experience and they don't they don't want to ever engage and deal with that.

00:16:37.280 And they go a little bit quiet after.

00:16:39.780 But in terms of what I think that was part of the process and made me realize I survived that.

00:16:44.540 And I felt strongly, again, there are certain issues within sex research that are being either misrepresented in the mainstream or that they're biased or particular ideas were taking hold that are unhelpful.

00:16:58.780 So that was really my motivation.

00:17:01.340 And then with the book, it was based on all the questions people have been asking me in the time that I've been writing about the science of gender and really wanting to be able to answer all their questions, because the standard column is usually about a thousand words.

00:17:14.360 So I'm not able to get.

00:17:15.220 Or last, yeah, sometimes they're shorter, like five, six hundred words.

00:17:18.720 Right.

00:17:19.600 Yeah.

00:17:20.100 And so it doesn't give you a lot of space to really hash out all your ideas.

00:17:23.660 And especially with these issues, because they are considered so controversial, I wanted to make sure that if I'm going to if I'm going to talk about this stuff, I want it to be done in a way that is both accurate to the scientific data, but also sensitive and also nuanced.

00:17:39.060 So the book gave me the opportunity to do that.

00:17:42.500 That's great.

00:17:43.260 And so did you have pushback against I know in the book you talked about how you kind of kept it quiet that you were writing this book because you were worried that they would go after the publisher.

00:17:52.620 I know that's happened to so many academics and journalists, too, that they have a book deal and this sort of mob that you're talking about, that the cancel culture mob finds a way to, you know, protest or lobby the publishing company and they get the book deal pulled.

00:18:07.800 So did you have any kind of pushback like that or were you able to just sort of fly under the radar?

00:18:14.360 I yeah, as I wrote in the book, I was very quiet.

00:18:16.740 I literally told three people my life when I signed the book deal.

00:18:19.880 It was it was really difficult for me not to say because people on social media, my readers would reach out and they would say, are you OK?

00:18:25.480 We haven't seen anything from you for a while.

00:18:27.740 And I really wanted to tell them what I was working on and to say, you know, get ready, because I think this is going to be something that will really speak to the concerns you have.

00:18:34.880 But I mean, there's been backlash since it came out, for sure.

00:18:39.960 I mean, I could go through the things that have happened, but part of me also feels like I try to stay very positive.

00:18:47.340 I feel very, very blessed to be in the position where, you know, I did get to write this book and that it is going and so many people have been reading it and giving me their feedback.

00:18:55.100 So maybe I'll leave it at that.

00:18:56.720 But I'll definitely say that, you know, there are some appearances that I've done that have been covered in a very biased way.

00:19:02.540 People have called me all kinds of things like transphobic.

00:19:05.140 They say my book is anti-trans, which I don't believe it is.

00:19:07.880 I think anyone who actually reads the book and listens to what I say knows that I have I have only love for trans people.

00:19:15.520 I only I have love for anyone that I discuss in the book.

00:19:19.340 It's not coming from a place of of wanting of any sort of ill intent.

00:19:24.780 And so I would just say for anyone watching or listening to this, just don't listen to come to your own opinion of me and what I have to say and of the end of gender after reading it, as opposed to what people say.

00:19:37.860 Because in a lot of cases, people misrepresent what I say or they just blatantly make things up and say that I claim that I've said things that I that I would never say because I don't believe those things.

00:19:49.780 Yeah, well, I think I mean, I've been through a similar thing, obviously a very different issue.

00:19:54.480 But I read a lot about immigration.

00:19:55.920 My background in academia was studying terrorism and looking into different terrorist groups.

00:20:02.180 And I started writing really publicly about immigration during the big immigration crisis in Europe in 2015 and what was happening in Canada.

00:20:10.480 And I got the same kind of thing.

00:20:11.820 It's like just by talking about issues that are seen as sort of taboo or politically incorrect, you get labeled with the worst possible names.

00:20:18.700 Like for me, it was Islamophobic or xenophobic or racist.

00:20:21.840 And it's like, in some ways, it's so jarring to have those kind of words thrown at you.

00:20:27.220 I mean, I read your book and, you know, obviously you're not transphobic.

00:20:31.620 You care a lot about the issue, but also you're a scientist.

00:20:34.240 So you're very removed and diplomatic and talking about the data.

00:20:38.660 And so it's kind of shocking, Deborah, that people would would take what you're writing and use that to come up with this this concept that you're transphobic when you're clearly not.

00:20:50.020 But that that doesn't faze you, though.

00:20:52.960 I saw you on Joe Rogan, which is a huge platform.

00:20:57.160 Congratulations on that.

00:20:58.640 What's it like going on his show?

00:21:00.840 Thank you.

00:21:01.840 That was so the most recent appearance that I believe it was August 5th.

00:21:05.480 So it was the day after the book came out.

00:21:07.000 That was the second time I've been on a show.

00:21:08.940 He's amazing.

00:21:09.700 You know, I've I've followed him for years.

00:21:11.520 I've been a fan of his for years.

00:21:12.740 And I really appreciate that he was willing to have me on to talk about the book, because he has also I don't want to speak for him.

00:21:19.880 But my sense is he's also received some pushback for that.

00:21:22.640 And it would have been very easy for someone like him to say, why?

00:21:27.140 Why take this on?

00:21:27.960 Why do this to yourself?

00:21:29.260 You know, he's very successful.

00:21:30.560 He obviously doesn't need he doesn't need any of this stuff, but he was still willing to get share his platform with me.

00:21:36.840 So I really appreciate that.

00:21:39.340 Yeah, I think, you know, when people call you names, I would say in the beginning, definitely it was jarring for me as well to to hear to because I know that some people will see that they'll say Debra so as a transphobe and they'll just say, OK, she must be a bad person. 0.70

00:21:52.440 I'm going to not look at her work or I'm just any of her name ever comes up.

00:21:56.340 I'm just going to assume she's a hateful person. 0.81

00:21:59.100 And I think we have to just get past that.

00:22:01.840 You know, I feel that was very helpful for me to just believe that I think most people who have critical thinking skills will hopefully take the time to actually go and read my work and look up.

00:22:11.600 Is there some truth to that?

00:22:13.300 And I really appreciate it with my audience because they'll tell me my friend was saying this about you and I told them, actually, no, she's not that you go read her work and you can see.

00:22:21.420 So that's I guess the advice I would have, because I think a lot of people live in fear of being called these names when they are not whatever it is they're afraid of being called.

00:22:30.300 And as long as you know that, that's really what matters.

00:22:32.880 And if people are so, so much like sheep that they're not even going to they just blindly believe what people tell them, then, you know, I don't think it really matters what those people think.

00:22:43.700 Yeah, those aren't the people that are going to be convinced anyway.

00:22:46.860 So not not good idea to spend your time on them.

00:22:51.340 Although I do I did read your book that you you like reading the comment section on your your articles and you do I don't really do I do it a little bit, but sometimes it's just so like overwhelming or crazy what people are saying that you're kind of like, you know, it is good to get the feedback, but you kind of have to filter it out, especially on Twitter, because there's a lot of craziness out there.

00:23:13.740 Oh, for sure. And I would say 90% of it usually is garbage, but for the 10% that is actually someone who's trying to engage in good faith.

00:23:21.960 It has been helpful for me. And I definitely have taken that feedback into consideration when I was writing The End of Gender and also, you know, just more broadly, because I think it is important.

00:23:32.440 The only way that I know or any of us know that we are correct or that we're making sense is to challenge ourselves and say, well, where are the potential holes in what I'm saying?

00:23:41.560 And if people, I do like criticism, because I think that's the only way you can get better as well. But there's a line between criticism and abuse and people obviously being nasty, but there are some people I think who are able to be respectful in how they engage. And so I'm willing to take what they have to say on board in that case.

00:24:00.380 That's great. Well, the book is The End of Gender, debunking the myths about sex and identity in our society. So I know you cover nine main myths in this book. And, you know, to me, I'm familiar sort of with like a cursory understanding of these issues, but I didn't know like the in-depth of them.

00:24:19.860 And one of the things that struck me, Deborah, was just how many kind of contradictions there were just among the nine myths. Like, you know, so many of the ideas that people who are sort of holders of gender ideology have don't make sense under basic scrutiny.

00:24:36.540 So I think it's great that your book winds this up. And, you know, for me, not having a scientific background and not having a background at all in biology and sexology, it was really helpful just to break down the terms because it can be really confusing and therefore intimidating because you're like, I don't even have the first sense of what these people are talking about sometimes.

00:24:57.200 Like when I first started learning about pronouns or the trans community, it's like, wow, there's a lot here. And there's a lot of new words that I've never heard of. And it's sort of a lot to unpack.

00:25:06.240 So I really appreciate that your book sort of laid it all out in sort of layman's terms so that it's approachable to anyone. But I thought maybe we could go through a couple of these myths and you could just sort of explain sort of how they came about and what's wrong with them.

00:25:25.080 So maybe first, your first, the first myth that you debunk here is that biological sex is a spectrum. We hear that a lot. First of all, I was wondering if you just explain the difference quickly between sex and gender.

00:25:38.980 Right. Well, thank you for that feedback, because that was definitely one of my goals with the book was to write the science in a way that anyone can understand it.

00:25:48.500 If you have zero background in science or biology, because that's important. I think even the best scientific papers, if they are not written in a way that someone can understand it and can access it as well, because a lot of science is behind a paywall.

00:26:01.760 So people can't even read the thing. I felt that was important because otherwise the content is completely lost.

00:26:07.360 So I'm glad to hear that in terms of sex and gender. So biological sex is determined by gametes. 0.63

00:26:14.400 So these are mature reproductive cells. So they're eggs and sperm. And then gender has to do with how we feel in relation to our biological sex.

00:26:23.180 So whether we feel masculine or feminine. So if someone is transgender, they identify more as the opposite sex than their birth sex. 1.00

00:26:29.820 And then gender expression is how we express our gender identity. So usually this is through clothing, mannerisms, our haircut, makeup, things like that.

00:26:40.640 So then with regard to the myth of biological sex being a spectrum. So this is something that's been become more and more prominent, I would say, probably the last year or so.

00:26:49.940 And I think where it's coming from is wanting to argue in favor of rights for people who are intersex.

00:26:59.600 So intersex people possess characteristics of both male and female. And I'm totally on board with that.

00:27:06.020 I think intersex people should be given legal protections, you know, equal rights.

00:27:12.960 I think intersex children should be left alone and have bodily autonomy.

00:27:17.940 They should not be forced to undergo unwanted potentially surgeries because that's another concern.

00:27:24.520 There's been a history of that for intersex children.

00:27:27.120 But I don't think we have to redefine biological sex or pretend that it is a spectrum when it's not.

00:27:33.080 Most intersex people actually do want to live within the binary.

00:27:37.100 They want to live as male or female. 1.00

00:27:39.000 They don't want to be something in between that or to collapse male and female into one construct. 0.99

00:27:47.580 So that is a very unusual one when I start to see that idea become more prominent because it doesn't make sense because we have, again, eggs and sperm.

00:27:58.000 There's nothing in between.

00:27:59.880 So, again, it's binary.

00:28:01.900 It's interesting that this concept has kind of come up because I remember back when I was in university, there was this idea that sexual orientation was a spectrum that you could like that everyone was on the spectrum somewhere, whether you were like a little bit gay or very gay.

00:28:21.280 And they were kind of pushing this idea of spectrum.

00:28:24.140 And then now it's taken on the idea of gender and sex itself.

00:28:29.820 So the idea that there aren't just two genders, but there are hundreds or even potentially infinite number of genders.

00:28:39.020 So just because I don't want to come across as insensitive and I'm trying to, you know, take on this issue in good faith.

00:28:47.260 The idea that there are intersex people and there have been throughout human history and across cultures, that is a fact of biology, correct?

00:28:57.820 Yes.

00:28:58.920 Yes.

00:28:59.260 And so the idea that someone would be born with ambiguous genitalia or both male and female genitalia and that in that case, the person would still biologically be either male or female, correct?

00:29:13.340 Yes, because intersex people, for the most part, still produce one or the other type of gamete. 0.98

00:29:20.180 It's very, very, very rare that someone has the capacity or the capability to produce both.

00:29:26.000 And even in that case, they usually will only produce one or the other.

00:29:30.540 It's not that they're able to produce both at the same time.

00:29:32.980 But I find most people, when they are trying to argue in favor of biological sex being a spectrum, they don't even look at the data.

00:29:39.560 They don't even look at these very, very rare case studies.

00:29:42.380 They very much just say, we want X, we want rights for this group, so this is what we're going to say.

00:29:49.340 And you see so-called scientific experts arguing this as well because, again, they're basically reverse engineering what they would like the social policy to be.

00:29:59.680 And so then they're changing what science says in order to facilitate that.

00:30:02.640 And this is just like a prevalent thing that's come up recently, Debra, because, I mean, again, I feel like this stuff wasn't really an issue five years ago or so.

00:30:13.740 But I have seen it recently.

00:30:15.280 Like, I think there's an example in Nature Journal that said that the idea of two sexes is simplistic and that biologists now think that there's a wider spectrum.

00:30:24.500 Presumably that would exist in all animals.

00:30:27.360 So the idea that really the idea of male and female are kind of like a social construct.

00:30:32.720 How long have you been seeing this argument floated around?

00:30:35.740 Well, I would say it started with the argument of gender as a social construct, which it is not.

00:30:42.700 And so I argue about that myth in the book.

00:30:44.680 And then from there it went to gender is a spectrum, which it also is not.

00:30:48.860 And I argue against that in the book.

00:30:50.340 And then it's expanded now to biological sex as well.

00:30:52.960 So it's been this progression.

00:30:53.920 I would say the specific specific to biological sex being not binary, probably in the last two years, really, was when it really started to pick up because, yeah, we saw that with Nature.

00:31:07.020 Nature is one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world.

00:31:11.040 In 2018, there was that whole debacle with the Trump's memo saying that sex is defined at birth by genitalia and people, all the media freaked out and not well, not all.

00:31:24.260 But I would say the majority of left leaning media outlets got very upset about this and said that he was erasing trans people and intersex people.

00:31:32.220 I do want to emphasize I do support transitioning in transgender adults because research does show that can be beneficial.

00:31:37.900 And also adults have the cognitive capacity to make life-altering decisions.

00:31:43.780 But, you know, I talk more specifically in the book about this particular incidence in 2018 and how really what the memo was saying was not actually that inaccurate, depending on how you define sex versus gender.

00:31:58.600 Because what we saw as journalists were using the word gender when really what they should have been using was sex. 0.70

00:32:03.720 So when you use the word gender and you say that gender is defined at birth and by genitalia, that's a much different meaning from saying that sex is determined at birth and by genitalia.

00:32:15.760 So, yeah, I mean, I would say that I'm curious to see what they're going to come up with next, but I'm really not.

00:32:22.900 I really would like for all of this to stop, but there's going to be more of it, I know for sure, because it's always about pushing boundaries.

00:32:29.480 It's always about rewriting and redefining things, because that's that's the only way that people who are anti-science can really do away with the field.

00:32:39.680 It's so interesting. I know you write about it in the book a lot that the idea and conservatives get accused of it all the time of being anti-science.

00:32:48.740 I think, sure, there's probably truth to that in the past, but, you know, I'm a conservative and I think that science is incredibly important.

00:32:58.060 And I don't really understand the argument. Usually when people say like, oh, the Harper government was anti-science, it's like a quibble over funding or whether or not we have how many questions we ask on a census form and stuff like that.

00:33:11.900 And I don't think that they're very sort of substantive, but we have seen this new attack on science coming from the left.

00:33:19.900 And, you know, it's it's it's it's really unfortunate. And I think it's so important that we have people like yourself that call it out on both sides.

00:33:30.780 I think I think you probably do call it out against conservatives when you see it as well.

00:33:37.060 Yeah, I mean, I would still call myself a liberal. I'm certainly not far left.

00:33:41.380 But this book is I mean, I do call it both sides, but I would say predominantly it's about calling out left leaning science denial,

00:33:46.860 because when it comes to gender and gender ideology, left leaning science denial is definitely posing more of a threat right now in terms of influencing, like I mentioned, 0.79

00:33:57.080 what kind of science is allowed to be done and what is allowed to be published and ultimately how we talk about these issues in our day to day lives.

00:34:06.000 So I think within the field of sex research in particular, because the vast majority of sex researchers are liberals.

00:34:12.760 Historically, the field has been dealing with interference coming from the right.

00:34:18.640 And that's not to say that all conservatives have an issue with sex research.

00:34:21.580 But I think when it's your own side, it's a bit disorienting because my colleagues are not used to dealing with it coming from their own side or they don't see it as as much of a threat.

00:34:34.240 And and there's an assumption there that it's not as serious and it's going to go away eventually.

00:34:38.580 It's not it's not going to actually gain any momentum, but that's definitely not the case.

00:34:43.700 I mean, this is how we ended up where we are right now.

00:34:46.260 And I definitely don't blame I don't blame, again, scientists for this because they're busy.

00:34:52.460 They've got a million things going on.

00:34:54.080 And who who could have predicted this?

00:34:55.800 And I'm very blessed to be in a position where I can actually call this out, because if I were still affiliated with a scientific organization or an academic institution,

00:35:04.100 I definitely would have would have lost my job as a result of that.

00:35:07.920 But I do I do wish that more scientists were willing to speak up about it because, I mean, it's not going to get better until they do.

00:35:17.880 Yeah, it seems like these sort of ideology just keeps growing and growing and growing.

00:35:21.960 Like, to be honest, the first time I ever really remember hearing about the pronouns debate was with Jordan Peterson.

00:35:27.900 And then what happened to Lindsay Shepard, who now works with me at True North.

00:35:32.760 And I kind of remember thinking, OK, it's sort of weird to use they.

00:35:37.180 I don't I can't I can't really picture myself doing that just because it doesn't make sense, like grammatically.

00:35:43.020 And it's confusing.

00:35:44.000 But then when I started looking into I realized, OK, it's not just about like using she to describe a trans woman or he or they.

00:35:53.420 It's like they have even more terms that are basically words I've never heard of before, like people that want to identify as she or she or something like that.

00:36:02.640 And I've heard you say that you're you're happy to use people's preferred pronouns, which is just sort of like the polite thing to do.

00:36:08.160 And I think most people agree.

00:36:09.780 But do you draw a line like would you use someone's pronoun if they if they ask you to refer to them as as she or she or one of these sort of words that didn't exist in the English vocabulary like a couple of years ago?

00:36:23.480 I as I've thought about this and I definitely have no issue using binary pronouns for a trans person who would identify as the opposite sex.

00:36:30.900 I don't have an issue with using they, although I do criticize the non-binary movement and we can talk about that in terms of why I think we need to have there should be a more clear conversation around the non-binary friends, if I can call it that.

00:36:49.160 But even for the pronouns that, you know, are are maybe not he, she or they, I will still use them.

00:36:57.260 I think if that's what someone would like me to use, I do try to be respectful.

00:37:01.480 I think in many cases, though, when it starts moving to that direction, it's a bit more about trying to signal yourself as being different or an individual.

00:37:09.880 And it worries me when this sort of language is now being backed by, again, medical literature, scientific literature, when there's no science to back it up.

00:37:26.220 Something like someone who's someone who's a transgender, but a binary sex that's backed by research, you know, gender dysphoria is backed by research, something like identifying as a third gender.

00:37:39.680 I mean, there's so many beyond just non-binary.

00:37:42.360 I mean, beyond, say, I mean, the most common ones would probably be gender fluid, gender queer.

00:37:49.800 I generally don't like to use the word queer because I still consider that to be a slur against gay people, agender, bi-gender.

00:37:58.060 I mean, all of these terms have no basis in science.

00:38:01.140 I think in many cases it's there are other issues going on with the individual.

00:38:06.100 You know, I've spoken before about how I think in many cases it's either gay people who have experienced homophobia and they are not comfortable with being gay.

00:38:13.180 Or there are in many cases young women who do not want to identify as female.

00:38:18.660 And as critical as I've been with of feminism, I do think on some level sexism does exist.

00:38:24.660 I think it's an individual's choice what they choose to do with those experiences and whether it's going to be something that's going to shape you or something you say is going to motivate you to just overcome obstacles in your life.

00:38:35.780 But I do think especially for young women who experience maybe negative interactions with people as a result of being female, they will identify now as non-binary or as a trans man because they don't want to experience that.

00:38:49.780 They don't want to be female. 1.00

00:38:50.920 And in other cases, I think it's people just trying to signal that they're progressive and it's considered ahead of the curve to some extent or it's a way of of fitting in with your peers.

00:39:04.100 I guess if all your peers are identifying as a third gender, if you identify as male or female, that's considered antiquated.

00:39:12.060 So that, yeah, that's basically my thoughts on that.

00:39:15.940 Yeah, it's sort of just a trendy sort of way to signal that you're interesting and different.

00:39:20.920 And woke or something like that.

00:39:23.260 All right.

00:39:23.580 Let's see.

00:39:24.020 Let's get into your criticism about non-binary.

00:39:26.780 I sort of reminds me a little bit of in Douglas Murray's latest book, The Madness of Crowds.

00:39:32.060 He talks about some of the tensions within the LGBTQ community and how they don't necessarily have a lot in common.

00:39:38.580 And I think that you picked up on that and kind of went a lot deeper with some of the kind of inherent contradictions,

00:39:45.660 like the idea that being trans would be transitioning from male to female, which kind of implies that there's just two genders.

00:39:53.540 But then bringing in this whole concept of being non-binary and being a spectrum and you can be male one day and female the next.

00:40:03.140 And it just depends on your feelings.

00:40:05.360 It sort of undermines the whole idea of being trans or transitioning.

00:40:09.940 Maybe we can expand on that a little more.

00:40:13.220 Sure.

00:40:13.460 I mean, I absolutely love Douglas Murray.

00:40:15.020 I think he's amazing.

00:40:15.860 So with this tension, you see with trans people who have transitioned to a binary sex, so they go from one to the other, 0.98

00:40:28.100 they will say, I don't have much in common with people who identify as non-binary because they aren't the same. 0.97

00:40:34.340 But I think part of also what it is with this non-binary movement is it's for people to get some sort of social currency in terms of victimization or some sort of oppression.

00:40:50.580 So they will lump themselves into the trans community. 0.76

00:40:54.840 And we see this happening more and more now when people refer to trans.

00:40:58.620 It's not just about people who have transitioned to a binary sex.

00:41:02.320 It's now beginning to include non-binary people, gender non-conforming people.

00:41:08.680 And they're not the same.

00:41:10.080 These are two different groups.

00:41:11.340 I mean, the underlying etiology is very different.

00:41:14.560 And so, like you're saying, I mean, and I say this in the book, if gender is fluid and can change throughout the day or within the hour, as some people claim it does for them,

00:41:26.000 how is that not an argument against transitioning?

00:41:28.880 Because for someone who is unhappy with their birth sex, why can they not then be told, just wait it out until you feel differently?

00:41:36.880 Which I don't agree with.

00:41:38.040 I do think, like I said, transitioning can be helpful for adults.

00:41:41.660 And also for non-binary people in many cases, they don't, when their quote-unquote transition, they don't really do much besides take on new pronouns and maybe change their haircut and clothing.

00:41:53.960 It's not like for someone who's, say, transgender and transitioning to a binary sex where they will undergo medical interventions.

00:42:01.580 It's not something, like there's definitely more of an investment there.

00:42:06.740 And I think also an emotional investment in terms of you are now living as the opposite sex. 1.00

00:42:14.240 This is not something, like non-binary people, it just seems like it's like a fun thing that they're doing when you hear them talk about it.

00:42:20.660 And I find that, I'm not transgender, but I would find that, I think, disrespectful for someone who has transitioned and undergone, you know, in some cases, a very challenging path.

00:42:32.380 So, yeah, there's definitely more of a tension within the community.

00:42:36.660 And I think people are rightful to be skeptical of it.

00:42:39.140 Because now, if you criticize the non-binary movement, you get called transphobic.

00:42:43.640 And I think this has nothing to do with trans people.

00:42:45.820 Well, yeah, it's interesting, because obviously, if you are trans or if you're intersex and then decide to transition, it's a huge, life-changing, all-encompassing thing. 0.98

00:42:58.140 And so then to see someone else who's sort of flippant about it and, like, it's like a fun trend.

00:43:03.380 I mean, it's, like, good for them to have that attitude towards it.

00:43:06.300 But at the same time, I can totally see how it is disrespectful.

00:43:10.640 Well, let's get into what I thought was the sort of meat of the book.

00:43:14.800 My favorite chapter, anyway, was about children with gender dysphoria and whether or not they should transition.

00:43:23.240 And so I think you said in the book that you once supported transitioning for children.

00:43:28.380 I think based on the logic that, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have a child who knows at an early age that they want to be the other sex or the other gender, I should say, 0.87

00:43:38.440 that allowing them to go through puberty is irreversible and that it can stop them from becoming who they want to be, essentially.

00:43:47.680 So if you transition pre-puberty, then that would prevent them from having to go through the awkward stage of going through puberty in what they think is the wrong body or the wrong sex.

00:43:58.960 But that you change your mind about that.

00:44:01.660 Maybe you can explain that better than I can.

00:44:03.320 But what is your take on children and transitioning?

00:44:10.780 Right.

00:44:11.300 So I did.

00:44:12.060 I used to believe that early transitioning was the best way forward for kids with gender dysphoria because it superficially made sense to me that if you have this child who is really struggling,

00:44:22.960 why wouldn't you want to help them in that way and especially to undergo medical interventions that would help prevent them having changes to their body that would be otherwise irreversible

00:44:37.640 and would make it more difficult for them to live as the opposite sex. 0.72

00:44:41.420 So that was my superficial understanding.

00:44:43.360 And then once I started reading the research literature, I realized that, again, the vast majority of these children are going to desist.

00:44:53.760 They're no longer going to be gender dysphoric by puberty.

00:44:56.900 Usually what happens is they grow comfortable in their body.

00:44:59.520 They start having crushes on their peers and they actually are quite happy.

00:45:04.180 So for the kids who persist, I do think they should be allowed to begin, you know, whatever interventions are seen as appropriate for them.

00:45:14.080 I don't do clinical work anymore.

00:45:15.440 I don't work with these children.

00:45:16.840 But I think a good clinician would say that that would be an appropriate course.

00:45:22.160 However, it's next to impossible nowadays for clinicians to do their jobs properly in that way in terms of assessing whether transitioning will be beneficial for a child who has reached puberty.

00:45:34.860 I would say even in the case of adults, I think it's extremely difficult for clinicians to even do a proper assessment for people with gender dysphoria who are, you know, well into an age where they can make these kinds of decisions.

00:45:49.720 Because often there are other issues going on that can lead to them feeling unhappy about their gender.

00:45:55.720 But with regard to the children and my change in my understanding.

00:45:59.840 So the other thing is people will often say that a social transition is harmless and that it's easily reversible.

00:46:06.460 And all you're doing is letting the kid wear whatever clothes they want, play with the toys they want.

00:46:11.040 That's not true because you are actually treating that child as though they are the opposite sex.

00:46:15.540 I am totally in favor of parents letting their kids play with whatever toys they want and having friends of the opposite sex and being, you know, gender nonconforming. 0.89

00:46:26.820 That doesn't require them to live as the opposite sex because a social transition is associated with persistence.

00:46:34.280 It's associated with going on and taking puberty blockers.

00:46:38.100 Puberty blockers are associated with cross-sex hormones, you know, going on down the line.

00:46:42.320 So it's not true, it's not factually accurate to say that a social transition is easy to reverse or that it's harmless because, I mean, this is what parents are being told.

00:46:54.380 I don't blame them for obviously believing the professionals who are telling them this.

00:46:59.300 But if you actually sit and read the studies and document all of this and I have all of the citations in the book, it's just not true.

00:47:06.740 Well, again, it's just really interesting because, I mean, you're dealing with little kids, right?

00:47:12.760 So they don't know what they're going to feel three, four years down the road.

00:47:17.380 They can't kind of wrap their head around the idea of like how this could affect their body going forward, whether it affects their ability to have children or their ability to change their mind.

00:47:27.800 That's when it gets like really dicey.

00:47:29.380 And I think a lot of parents out there are rightfully concerned that it is an ideology that's being pushed.

00:47:36.440 Maybe you can help break down the numbers a little bit.

00:47:39.500 Just how prevalent is this sort of phenomenon?

00:47:43.240 I'm talking about transgenderism.

00:47:45.100 Do we know like what percentage of people fall into this category?

00:47:49.800 Well, in terms of the adult population in the U.S., six in a thousand people identify as transgender.

00:47:58.980 So this is a number that has doubled in the last 10 years with regards to children.

00:48:03.820 So previously, referrals to gender clinics have been predominantly for boys.

00:48:09.460 So little boys who are very feminine. 0.98

00:48:11.860 But there's been a switch now and it's predominantly now for children born female.

00:48:18.020 We can talk a bit about rapid onset gender dysphoria as well, because that's another phenomenon that is really worrisome to me because we are seeing this huge influx of young women who are very suddenly wanting to transition to male or a third gender, when in many cases their issues have nothing to do with gender.

00:48:37.320 And also with regards to the issue of clinicians not being able to do their job, here in Canada, we have Bill C-8 that criminalizes any therapeutic interventions that do not facilitate early transitioning.

00:48:54.000 So essentially any child who is gender dysphoric or at all uncomfortable in their body, if they go to a mental health professional, they will be given, they'll be facilitated in transitioning.

00:49:08.860 There's no alternative there.

00:49:11.160 Who wants to face potentially five years in prison for doing good clinical work?

00:49:16.140 I mean, very few people are going to take that risk, I think, if anyone.

00:49:20.540 So that's only going to add to these numbers.

00:49:25.260 So maybe you can break down that bill a little bit, because I think maybe most people aren't too familiar with it.

00:49:30.340 But the idea is to ban conversion therapy.

00:49:33.280 Is that right?

00:49:34.560 Right.

00:49:34.800 Well, they're calling it conversion therapy.

00:49:37.260 I do not support any therapeutic interventions that seek to change sexual orientation.

00:49:42.800 So conversion therapy used to mean attempts to change someone's sexual orientation.

00:49:48.000 And that does not work because, as I write in the book, sexual orientation is biological.

00:49:52.660 It cannot be changed.

00:49:53.700 It's immutable.

00:49:55.360 Gender identity is not the same as sexual orientation, because especially for young children, the way they feel about their gender can change with their development.

00:50:03.480 So it's not appropriate to say that, not to call any therapeutic attempts at reconciling one's gender or the way a child feels in their birth sex, to call that conversion therapy, because it's not the same.

00:50:20.260 But I think it's very clever marketing on the part of these activists, because they know that most people are not in favor of conversion therapy for sexual orientation.

00:50:30.020 It's unethical.

00:50:31.520 And so they've tacked on the gender identity aspect of it to this broader idea.

00:50:37.440 And so, I mean, even in my work, people, when they see that I am opposed to conversion, so-called conversion therapy for gender identity, they are there a bit taken aback because to them, that's hateful.

00:50:50.700 And then once you explain to them, no, it's not the same as sexual orientation.

00:50:54.000 And in fact, what you see happening, so for these kids who are gender dysphoric, who identify more as the opposite sex, if they are facilitated in transitioning, so as I mentioned, most of these kids would grow up to be gay if they transition.

00:51:09.380 So if you have a little boy who is very feminine, who is going to grow up to be attracted to men, if he transitions to female, when she grows up, she's going to appear to be a straight woman because she's going to be a woman attracted to men.

00:51:22.300 So the really hypocritical and unfortunate thing is essentially this ban is conversion therapy, in my mind, because you are taking these children and you're making them straight by putting them down a course of transitioning.

00:51:36.960 They're going to look heterosexual in adulthood.

00:51:40.240 But I don't think the politicians have thought about this.

00:51:44.000 I don't think they necessarily care.

00:51:45.620 I think it's really just about what seems to be the quote-unquote right thing to say in this climate.

00:51:51.180 So the children will pay a price for that, unfortunately.

00:51:55.280 It's so sad that little kids have to go through this.

00:51:58.860 Just to pick up on something that you said, though, your scientific opinion is that sexual orientation is biological.

00:52:07.580 So that would be like in the nurture nature debate, it's entirely based on nature, like Lady Gaga, I was born this way kind of thing.

00:52:15.960 And so you would oppose any kind of therapy that someone would go to to try to change that, that it's totally immutable, that you can't change it.

00:52:25.480 What about someone, though, who is bisexual or someone who is gay but didn't want to be gay?

00:52:30.340 I mean, you would oppose therapy for them even as an adult or just for children?

00:52:36.320 Well, see, this is the thing.

00:52:39.920 I don't like the idea of the government coming in and telling people what they, especially adults, telling them what they can or can't do.

00:52:46.840 I would say, in my understanding of the scientific research, and chapter four of the book is dedicated to this, that sexual orientation cannot be changed.

00:52:56.780 So if someone is uncomfortable with being gay or bisexual, I would say the best way for them would be maybe to speak to a therapist about why they're uncomfortable about that and maybe find ways of learning to accept that and appreciate that about themselves and not feel like they have to change that.

00:53:17.460 I mean, I understand, and I write in the book about how I grew up in the gay community.

00:53:20.500 And I see, I still see the discrimination that gay people face, but, you know, it's one of those things.

00:53:27.840 It's just, it's not, it's not effective.

00:53:30.240 If you do, there are some practitioners who do still practice conversion therapy for sexual orientation, which makes me very, very uncomfortable.

00:53:39.880 I would just really advise against going down in that direction because it's not going to work.

00:53:45.260 I think it will cause more harm than good.

00:53:48.680 Fair enough.

00:53:49.420 Yeah, I would, I would just sort of feel uncomfortable with the government saying you can or cannot have this kind of therapy if that's what you want.

00:53:56.380 I mean, if, say you were bisexual and you were attracted to both, you were a man who was attracted to both men and women, but you chose that you wanted to have a traditional family and be a father and stuff like, you know, you could, you could go to therapy to help you.

00:54:10.760 And that, that's not something that the same logic is applied to trans children who are clearly going through something, a major, you know, life issue.

00:54:22.460 It just seems crazy that the government would tell you that you cannot engage in therapy without going down the path of transitioning, which is what I understand is the case now.

00:54:33.040 Right. And I mean, in terms of bans for conversion therapy for sexual orientation for children.

00:54:39.920 I mean, I think I have less of an issue if the government were to do that because one, it is more based in science and also because young children especially can't necessarily advocate for themselves.

00:54:50.480 So if they do have a parent say, I mean, parents, I think are quite intuitive.

00:54:55.540 They get a sense if they have a gender nonconforming child, there's a chance that child's going to grow up to be gay and that bothers some parents.

00:55:02.040 And so they will, you know, this is, we've seen this in the past where parents will take their kids to these practitioners to try and convert them to be more gender conforming and to be straight, which I do not agree with.

00:55:12.960 I always want to emphasize, I don't agree with that, but I have less, it makes me less uncomfortable.

00:55:17.020 I have less of an issue if, say, there were policy in place to prevent that from happening because kids can't, they can't, you know, if a parent makes that decision for them, they really don't have much recourse.

00:55:31.380 But I think as, you know, for adults, it's a little bit more concerning to me.

00:55:36.520 And also with especially Bill C8, it's not scientific.

00:55:39.680 I mean, that's ultimately what it comes down to.

00:55:41.240 So scientists should be consulted on this, not activists.

00:55:48.900 Absolutely.

00:55:49.540 So, yeah, you have a situation where a lot of parents are really terrified because they might have a child who is gender nonconforming, like you say, or maybe just some of their friends.

00:56:00.280 Like you talk about in your book about, and you just brought it up too, about rapid onset gender dysphoria and how it can happen.

00:56:08.240 I mean, I know someone who, the child goes to a small private school and like half the kids in the class identify as, you know, non-binary or they're transitioning or they're trans.

00:56:19.480 And it's like, how can you look at that situation and not see it as the environment that the child is in, where they're being encouraged to explore this or being led down that path by someone who is ideological?

00:56:32.760 And so parents are stuck in this position where they just don't know what to do.

00:56:36.560 So is that something that you've sort of encountered and maybe you can speak to that to concern parents who obviously love your children and want the best for them, but worry about an ideology that could potentially have terrible impact on the rest of their life?

00:56:51.520 I've had so many parents reach out to me about this issue, both before the book came out and since the book has come out.

00:56:59.000 Since the book has come out, I've been blown away by the number of parents and family members who have reached out to me.

00:57:03.920 It's really, really sad.

00:57:05.380 You know, I really feel for them because they're in a position where they really are at a loss because they're, if they are skeptical of their child wanting to transition, they're called all kinds of hateful names.

00:57:17.220 Now we see, you know, legal policy is in favor of, of allowing the child to, to basically transition.

00:57:23.960 And, um, I mean, I, I know, I know the truth is going to come out.

00:57:29.800 I know what's around the corner.

00:57:31.320 It's going to be devastating.

00:57:32.860 And, um, it's difficult for me to, I find of the parents that I talked to, some of them are very much aware of this and they're, they're skeptical rightfully.

00:57:44.800 There are other parents who go along with it.

00:57:47.920 They're skeptical, but they also feel they don't have a choice.

00:57:51.380 And so that chapter that you mentioned, chapter five, which is about gender transitioning children, I document, you know, all the advice that I would give to parents because I've had parents reach out to me sometimes when I would, when I used to do speaking engagements, they would come up and ask me questions at the end.

00:58:05.380 And it's very difficult.

00:58:07.100 I don't feel it's appropriate for me to tell a parent what they should or shouldn't do with their particular child, because, you know, in these cases, I've never met the child.

00:58:14.720 I don't know the parents.

00:58:15.660 And I also know that parenting decisions are very personal, but, um, yeah, in the book I do go through, you know, there are a number of things that activist groups will say, or even medical professionals will say.

00:58:27.500 To try to sway a parent in one direction or another, um, things like saying your child is at a higher risk of suicide or they will commit suicide if they don't transition saying that this is due to greater social acceptance, which really doesn't make sense.

00:58:41.340 Because why is it, we're seeing this predominantly in adolescent girls who are not gender non-conforming for the most part.

00:58:47.940 Most of them are very female typical up until even days before they announced that they want to transition.

00:58:53.980 So, yeah, that, that, I'm not sure if that answers your question, but that's, that's been my take on it when I step back a bit.

00:59:01.480 Well, it's, it's really interesting because I think you're getting at that.

00:59:05.200 There's, I mean, obviously, you know, when you're going through puberty, when a child's going through puberty, their body's changing.

00:59:11.340 It's confusing and they feel uncomfortable.

00:59:14.600 And so if you, if you take a little girl who's feeling uncomfortable with, with her puberty, and then at the same time, she's socially awkward, or perhaps she's on the autism spectrum somehow, it's like, these are all things that are pushing someone towards wanting to go down that route of being trans.

00:59:33.980 But it's like, you know, what, what, what happens a couple of years later when they grow out of it and it's irreversible.

00:59:40.940 So maybe we can talk a little bit about some of those cases that we're now seeing where someone has transitioned and now they want to go back and detransition or they experience regret is how prevalent is that?

00:59:53.540 We don't yet know the numbers in terms of what has been documented in research, about 2% of people detransition.

01:00:05.440 But again, this, the data for that study were collected years ago.

01:00:09.580 So it's, it doesn't really apply to the young women and that we're seeing right now who are rushing to transition.

01:00:16.400 But I, I definitely think it's going to be higher than 2%.

01:00:20.200 We're seeing, you know, even in the UK, hundreds and hundreds of these girls are coming out in one county alone. 0.52

01:00:25.360 And in a lot of cases, they're saying, I am on the autism spectrum.

01:00:30.140 I'm lesbian.

01:00:31.480 I just feel different.

01:00:32.760 I don't feel like I'm a typical girl.

01:00:34.840 You know, in many cases, they aren't extremely feminine. 0.57

01:00:37.160 So they believe that means that they must really be a man.

01:00:40.600 And as you're saying, you know, puberty brings upon these changes.

01:00:43.480 And for some of these girls, even the fact that they get periods, they don't like the fact that they get a period every month. 0.50

01:00:49.080 And so they think that means they must be a man.

01:00:50.980 And, you know, I say in the book very clearly, like, there are no woman likes getting her period. 0.93

01:00:55.360 That's just an inherent part of being a woman. 0.99

01:00:57.180 That doesn't mean you're not a woman. 0.70

01:00:58.500 And it doesn't mean that it's not amazing to be women.

01:01:00.560 And, and I, I just, I can't believe that no one is saying this to these, these girls or, you know, developing breasts.

01:01:07.700 The double mastectomies are becoming so common now for, for young women who are identifying as male or who identify as a third gender.

01:01:18.220 And I think it's, you know, I, my breasts are small, but of my girlfriends who have larger breasts, they will tell me that they, they hated their breasts when they first started developing.

01:01:28.080 That it was very uncomfortable.

01:01:29.200 That it was something that they had to adjust to.

01:01:31.820 And I, I, you know, once it's not as simple as having the surgery and then simply getting implants later, if that's what you decide, it's not the same.

01:01:42.940 They sell it as though it's the same, they tell the parents it's the same, it's easily reversible, it's not the same.

01:01:49.140 And, and as for these young women who are de-transitioners, so they were born female, they identified as male or third gender, and now they've gone back to, to identifying as female.

01:01:58.440 They will say, I wish that medical professionals had asked me these questions.

01:02:03.620 I wish they had not taken what I had said at face value.

01:02:06.040 In some cases, these girls are getting prescriptions for testosterone after one, one hour appointment. 1.00

01:02:13.220 They don't, you know, the practitioners do not do a proper assessment.

01:02:17.560 They don't do any sort of history.

01:02:20.960 It's just, it's a mess.

01:02:24.500 It's really a mess.

01:02:25.440 And I really feel for these girls.

01:02:28.320 And why aren't they getting proper assessments?

01:02:30.600 Is it because the ideology is so prevalent that people who, by the time a child comes in to talk to a, presumably, you know, a trained professional, that it's just assumed that they are a trans person?

01:02:44.620 Or why aren't they getting the right advice here?

01:02:48.380 Because even the doctors believe that if they don't facilitate transitioning right away, that their patient is going to commit suicide.

01:02:56.060 They've, they've, they've been intimidated and I think to some extent misled by activist groups that really are pushing this narrative.

01:03:04.840 And this is not to say that, you know, I don't think, I do believe gender dysphoria is, you know, a legitimate condition.

01:03:12.720 And I have a lot of empathy for people who are struggling with their gender.

01:03:16.620 I think it should be taken seriously.

01:03:17.960 But I don't think the, the response to that is to go completely in this opposite direction.

01:03:24.880 Because gatekeeping has been an issue in the past for trans people where they can't get access to the interventions and the care that they need and deserve.

01:03:33.220 But now we've gone so far in the opposite direction where it's very much whatever someone says goes.

01:03:38.960 And in many cases, this is not going to be the best case as we're, the best outcome as we're already seeing for these individuals.

01:03:45.380 You're right. It seems like it's sort of coming from a place of kindness and trying to accommodate people that are different.

01:03:52.820 But, you know, it's definitely seems like the spectrum has swung so far.

01:03:58.000 It's so easy to transition. It's so easy to change your gender. 0.89

01:04:01.440 I don't know if you remember a few years ago, Lauren Southern officially changed her gender. 1.00

01:04:05.820 All she had to do was go into a doctor's office and claim that she wanted to be a boy.

01:04:11.100 And then that, it was that, it was that easy.

01:04:12.600 It was like she did it in an afternoon. And I mean, obviously she's an adult, but one of the things you talked about in your book as well,

01:04:20.000 and you just brought it up with suicide is, is that that's something that's sort of almost being used to threaten parents.

01:04:26.040 Like, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't you rather have a happy transgender little girl than a dead boy, 1.00

01:04:32.440 which to me is like, as a parent, it's like the most evil thing you can say to a parent, that kind of guilt,

01:04:37.280 like as if a parent doesn't care already. And that's something that they would want, like no parent wants anything like that for their child.

01:04:44.980 But what is, what is the data surrounding suicide? Is it something that's, that's really a problem in the trans community?

01:04:51.160 Well, there is one statistic, the 41% statistic of saying that trans adults, 41% of trans adults have attempted suicide,

01:05:02.140 which I think we should take seriously. I mean, there, there are legitimate concerns there.

01:05:08.440 Um, but I, I don't think, especially when it comes to the issue of whether children should be transitioning or not,

01:05:14.260 it's not appropriate to take a statistic that pertains to adults and to apply that to children.

01:05:20.820 Uh, that particular study, the researchers also mentioned how, um, they did not ask whether the individual was experiencing issues with their gender at the time of their suicide attempt.

01:05:32.400 So we don't even know that, um, their suicide attempt had anything to do with gender dysphoria.

01:05:39.460 Um, there's also, you know, likelihood that there was comorbidity. We don't know, but there, you know,

01:05:44.880 one study showed that as many as 60% of people with gender dysphoria have some other psychiatric comorbidity.

01:05:51.760 Um, I understand why people don't want to talk about these things because then it can be used in some cases for people to dismiss the concerns of someone who is,

01:06:00.760 who has gender dysphoria to say, Oh, this person is just mentally ill. They don't know what they're talking about.

01:06:05.500 I don't agree with that, but I do think we have to, again, look at this from a fact-based perspective,

01:06:10.620 because if someone is struggling with something else and it's being expressed as gender, but it's not actually about their gender,

01:06:17.100 well, if they transition, they're not going to feel better after it's not going to take care of whatever it is that they're struggling with.

01:06:23.240 And, um, so yeah, definitely that suicide narrative is being used to emotionally blackmail parents.

01:06:30.760 I don't blame the parents who, who allow their child to transition as a result of being told that,

01:06:35.140 because I think that's what any parent would do. Um, but it's, that's definitely been a very powerful,

01:06:41.380 I think tool in terms of why, why this has become so prevalent. And, and also that mental health professionals

01:06:49.180 and doctors don't want to be called transphobic because they have to worry about that too. They

01:06:54.420 have to worry about potentially losing their license if they don't facilitate this, but they

01:06:58.100 also have to worry about activist groups going after them and saying that they're hateful and

01:07:02.440 transphobic. Um, it's not a good look for them either. So, uh, it, yeah, it's just, it's just completely

01:07:08.880 inappropriate. The fact that children, I feel they're being used in this way to further a particular

01:07:13.900 agenda. Well, and it's like a minefield trying to navigate it because again, most people,

01:07:19.540 most people out there are just, you know, decent people. They want to do the right thing. They

01:07:23.540 don't want anyone to suffer. They want equal rights and they want everyone to be protected and everyone

01:07:28.000 to feel included. But then, you know, at some point it's like, well, wait a minute. I mean, this,

01:07:33.760 this is just not right. And, and like you say, for both, uh, little girls and little boys that

01:07:41.080 want to transition at that moment, you know, if, if, if, if you just wait that, that, that phase

01:07:46.920 might change, it might turn out to be, like you said that I think, I think you said that most males

01:07:54.080 who want to transition, if they don't, they just end up kind of becoming comfortable and becoming

01:07:58.920 gay men. So the idea of forcing them to transition would be sort of a slight against gay men or, or

01:08:07.100 saying that it's not okay to be gay. So you see a homophobia come into that as well. Um,

01:08:13.040 what are, are there any other sort of, um, clashes that you see between these different groups or is

01:08:17.460 that sort of the main one? I would, I want to add actually with regards to gay men, I've had so many

01:08:23.420 gay men reach out to me over the years saying that they thought about transitioning and they read an

01:08:30.000 article or they saw a video of me talking and they decided to wait. And now they're happy that they did

01:08:34.620 because they're happy as gay men and they're out to everyone in their life. And so that means a lot

01:08:39.300 to me when I hear that, because it, it gives me some reassurance that I'm doing the right thing.

01:08:43.800 Cause I do try to, to step back every once in a while and ask myself, am I still making sense?

01:08:48.620 You know, I obviously don't want to make life more difficult for, for the trans community or for

01:08:53.380 anyone who is experiencing gender dysphoria. Um, but in terms of that tension, I mean, I'm always amazed when I

01:09:00.360 see, how shall I say this gay men who are, you know, very open about being gay, but they will

01:09:10.620 defend childhood transitioning. Um, there are a number of public figures who have done this. And

01:09:15.060 I just think, uh, I don't know if they realize what they're doing or how harmful it is. I think

01:09:21.780 in many cases, maybe these individuals have forgotten how much they are like these kids,

01:09:25.540 because for many, um, especially boys with gender dysphoria, when they grow up, they forget like

01:09:30.540 research has shown that they will forget that they once wanted to be girls when they were young.

01:09:34.800 So maybe that's it. I think at best, but, uh, you know, I have a line in the book talking about

01:09:39.880 how this, I'm amazed because it is leading to essentially the extermination of gay children. 0.94

01:09:43.920 And it's like, these gay adults don't seem to have a problem with that. I don't think they 0.98

01:09:47.800 represent most in the gay community because I have, I have many people, trans adults and gay adults

01:09:52.840 who reach out to me saying they agree with me, but it's at the end of the day, I think it comes

01:09:57.780 down to individuals who are really looking to build their own platforms and get social

01:10:04.740 accolades and move their career forward. And so they really don't care at the end of the day,

01:10:09.540 who gets pushed under the bus as a result. Yeah. It'll be interesting to sort of keep an eye

01:10:14.780 on the LGBT. I don't know what, it feels like the letters are constantly changing or they're

01:10:20.800 always adding new ones or depending on whether you're reading something that's Canadian or

01:10:24.440 American, they have like different letters at the end, but the, the, the sort of tensions

01:10:28.660 between them. Cause I know you talked a little bit in the book about, um, feminism and how 1.00

01:10:33.940 sort of, there's a, a big divide between, uh, you know, whether or not a trans, someone who

01:10:40.780 transitions to become a woman can actually be a woman. Obviously biologically they can't, 1.00

01:10:45.180 but then, you know, they're able to, you can't even say that now though.

01:10:48.360 Okay. Well, I, I, I mean, I, I, I, I wouldn't be afraid of it, but yeah, I, I get, I get that

01:10:53.880 like a lot of people get canceled just for making that very basic statement that, I mean, even,

01:10:59.100 you know, biologically, it's almost like a, an obvious statement, but it's, it's politically

01:11:04.240 controversial these days. But I think one of the things that I would be concerned about, and

01:11:08.940 this is sort of starting to happen more and more where you see a trans person in a woman's locker 0.64

01:11:14.000 room and it's just sort of weird. And a lot of women feel uncomfortable about it, but they're 1.00

01:11:19.120 afraid to speak out. And it's like, you know, the idea that we have women only spaces supposed to be

01:11:24.360 to protect women. You know, if you're, if you're changing in after, after going to the gym or

01:11:29.280 something like that. Um, and, and a concern could be, especially if there's little, little girls in 0.98

01:11:33.460 there. Uh, but, but then I think there's another issue, Debra, which is, uh, sports and, and, and

01:11:39.260 women who, you know, want to play like competitive soccer. Um, but they have to compete against 1.00

01:11:44.900 someone who is biologically male, you know, who's transitioned. And one of the things I think was

01:11:50.760 interesting was supposed to be the Tokyo Olympics coming up. They, they had a new statement, a new

01:11:55.440 policy on transgender athletes where they were under, under some circumstances going to be able to

01:12:01.000 compete. And I think that that would have been pretty jarring for the public to see. And, and it

01:12:05.020 would have brought this debate much more into the forefront, but of course those Olympics got, uh,

01:12:09.260 postponed or canceled, but, um, maybe you can just quickly address the issue of, um, transgender

01:12:14.900 athletes and the sort of, uh, the, the tension between feminists and trans, trans people. 1.00

01:12:23.700 Right. So I have that chapter talking about whether, uh, trans women are no different

01:12:30.900 from women who were born women. And I do in the chapter talk about differences, but I do want

01:12:35.700 to emphasize that I don't think those differences should be used to hold back trans rights. I don't

01:12:40.340 think they should be used to discriminate against trans people or trans women, but in some cases,

01:12:44.940 no, these differences are important. Like as you're mentioning in competitive sports or, you know,

01:12:50.080 say I love mixed martial arts. If they can have a serious consequences for competitors,

01:12:55.400 if, if we overlook these differences, it can feel, I mean, even when I talk about this issue,

01:13:00.360 I feel it, it can be seen as insensitive because it's as though we are saying to a trans person who

01:13:07.380 they really are or how they should be seen. And that's not my intention. Um, but again, I'm coming

01:13:12.720 from a scientific perspective and saying, if we ignore these differences, and I think most in the

01:13:18.220 public know that these differences exist to shut that down and pretend that they don't exist,

01:13:24.160 you lose credibility and it alienates people from the cause of wanting to advocate for trans rights

01:13:29.080 and for equality. So with regards to sports, I mean, it is so contentious. Like you're saying,

01:13:34.540 those guidelines for the Olympics, they were at last reported, still basically deciding what they

01:13:41.920 were going to be, because I guess it's so difficult to come to an agreement because of, of how,

01:13:46.340 how controversial it is. And I feel like I feel for them because I think no matter what they do,

01:13:51.460 people are, someone is going to get upset. Some group somewhere is going to get upset and say

01:13:54.880 either you didn't do enough or you've gone too far. Um, the tension between feminists and trans 1.00

01:14:00.040 activists. So it depends what kind of feminists, because, um, radical feminists are very skeptical 1.00

01:14:05.300 of this idea that, uh, someone who is trans should be considered the opposite sex. So I'm not a radical

01:14:12.260 feminist. I don't want to speak for them, but in my understanding, someone who was born male and 0.98

01:14:16.700 identifies as female can never be female. They will always be male, which would be correct from a, 0.99

01:14:23.520 from a biologically speaking standpoint. I don't have an issue referring to a trans woman as a woman

01:14:29.920 using, you know, she calling her, she using the name she'd like me to use. But again, I, there are

01:14:36.680 differences there. Um, whereas say for, for radical feminists, they, they very much say, no, trans women 1.00

01:14:42.900 are not women. So I don't agree with them in that. Um, whereas say they're kind of like a different 1.00

01:14:50.640 kind of woman. Like you, you can, it's like, it's just hard to say, like, it's almost like a case by

01:14:56.360 case basis, but there are some men that you could just tell their men, no, you know, no matter what

01:15:01.880 they do, they're big, they, you know, they have broad shoulders and just, you know, for someone like

01:15:07.620 that, it's, it's hard to say, okay, that, that person is going to be a woman beat just because they 1.00

01:15:12.380 transitioned. And I know obviously it's, it's really difficult, but I just have a hard time

01:15:17.880 kind of roughing my head around the idea that, that someone who could be a large male wanting

01:15:24.800 to compete against women in sports. That's something that we should, that we should just 1.00

01:15:28.680 say, okay, that's, that's fine. Well, I would say, I mean, I understand where the, the concern is

01:15:35.440 coming from for people who say it should be fair because, um, you know, I don't necessarily

01:15:40.280 fault to fault an individual who may be physically larger, who may look a certain way because

01:15:45.300 in some cases, maybe they, they can't help that. But I guess it's because if we were to

01:15:50.740 say you cannot compete with women, then we're essentially telling them again, who they are 1.00

01:15:54.840 and that they aren't really who they say they are. But the other side of that, which, which

01:15:58.840 I, you know, I argue in the book is that it's not fair and it's not fair for, for, especially

01:16:04.160 in competitive sports, for women who've in some cases have been working their entire lives 1.00

01:16:08.340 for these opportunities and, and they're basically being told that they should just suck it up

01:16:12.860 and work harder. That's how can you, how can you say that to somebody? So, I mean, I feel

01:16:18.260 this is one issue where people are a little bit more willing to be vocal, you know, they'll

01:16:23.580 be quiet about talking about women's spaces or transitioning and children or gender neutral

01:16:31.700 language. But sports is one area where people get very, very upset and they say that is, they

01:16:36.920 have a problem with this. So I say, if you have a problem with it, it's good to speak

01:16:41.060 up about it. And I think that guidelines should be taken into account. You know, I get that

01:16:45.620 for trans people, sport is not just about the competitive aspect and about it being a meritocracy,

01:16:50.800 but it's also about that sense of community and people, you know, in some cases just want

01:16:55.820 to be able to go out and have fun and feel like they're being recognized as they would like

01:17:01.420 to be recognized and just get on with their business. I think that's the average trans

01:17:04.920 person. When you take it to the level of competitive sports and it's becoming a political statement,

01:17:09.320 that's a little bit different. But my, my general approach is that it really depends on what realm

01:17:15.820 we're speaking of. You know, I think sports are different from prison and that should be different

01:17:19.680 from say bathrooms or, um, you know, we, I also talk about sexual preferences and our sexual preferences

01:17:27.660 considered transphobic nowadays. So, um, yeah, I just, I just think people should be less afraid

01:17:34.780 to talk about this more broadly because I feel like everyone is, is stepping, is, is just afraid

01:17:42.500 of being targeted next for saying the wrong thing and everyone is terrified. And again, if you're,

01:17:48.220 if you're coming from a fact-based perspective, a lot of people are going to agree with you and

01:17:52.960 they're going to tell you that they agree with you. Uh, absolutely. Well, uh, you're definitely

01:17:57.700 one of the people that do speak out about it. And I think your book helps provide clarity because

01:18:03.340 again, it's, it's, it's not only is it a confusing issue because of all the terminology and the

01:18:08.560 different sort of new words that are, a lot of them are really ideological, uh, but it's also new

01:18:13.700 and, and it's not something that people were even exposed to a couple of years ago. So a lot of

01:18:18.380 people who might be intimidated by the issue, I think they could read your book and, and, and,

01:18:22.580 and learn a lot about it. I'll just ask you one final question, Deborah, on the topic of your book.

01:18:27.880 What, what, what do you see happening down the road? I mean, with kids transitioning or being pushed

01:18:33.420 towards it and, and, and sort of, you know, scientists being afraid of, of, of putting out

01:18:38.420 factual information. And so because of that, it's more inundated with ideology and, and, and again,

01:18:44.700 just this chill of cancel culture and political correctness, like where, where are we headed and,

01:18:48.900 and what, what do you predict will happen in the next five years?

01:18:52.860 I think there's going to be a huge wave of children detransitioning. It's going to be really 0.93

01:18:58.360 awful. And I see a lot of the people who are pushing this right now, playing dumb and saying, 0.94

01:19:04.720 oh, we had no idea this was going to happen. This is so terrible. Who could have predicted this 0.96

01:19:09.240 when those of us who are calling it out are being called by them, uh, transphobic,

01:19:14.880 we're being called hateful and bigoted. So I really hope anyone that's been following this

01:19:19.400 conversation, hold those people accountable when that happens, because they're going to deflect the

01:19:24.540 blame and, and pretend as though there was no indication that this was, was coming. Um, I think

01:19:30.480 for, you know, how children are being targeted with education, they're being taught these ideas

01:19:35.360 in their curriculum. They're going to be extremely confused as they get older, because a lot of the

01:19:40.740 ideas they're being told don't make any sense. There's something very basic, like say in Ontario,

01:19:45.360 the sex ed curriculum, and I am in favor of comprehensive sex ed. I always want to make sure

01:19:50.240 that I'm clear about that. My issue is when the gender ideology starts coming in, comprehensive sex 1.00

01:19:55.200 ed is actually more, uh, effective than abstinence only sex education in terms of preventing,

01:20:00.840 um, unwanted pregnancy and, and children, not children, not children. I take that back, but

01:20:06.540 young adults are more likely to use protection and make better decisions about their sexual health

01:20:11.840 with comprehensive sex ed. But the gender ideology has no business being there. And, you know, they're, 1.00

01:20:17.800 the kids are being taught things like sexual orientation and gender identity, gender expression

01:20:23.160 and anatomy have nothing to do with one another. Um, and that, like you were saying, sexual orientation is

01:20:28.140 a spectrum, it's fluid, all these nonsensical ideas. So as these kids get older, they're going to,

01:20:34.660 they're not going to have any sort of realistic understanding of the world around them, or how to relate

01:20:39.120 to other people, because everything they've been told is factually inaccurate. I have a chapter in the

01:20:44.200 book dedicated to sex differences and sex and dating. And I think this is, this is going to be even bigger

01:20:49.580 of a problem because young people especially have, are so confused when it comes to if they're straight

01:20:56.020 interacting with the opposite sex and how a lot of this ideology is quite damaging, I think, in terms 1.00

01:21:01.120 of, um, how we relate to each other, both not just in the bedroom, but just more broadly. And also,

01:21:08.920 I think science as a whole is, is, has been taken hostage and that's only going to get worse because

01:21:13.520 we see more and more activism is just destroying these disciplines.

01:21:17.540 All right. Well, I, I don't want to keep you much, one, one, one final question. What did you have

01:21:23.400 any advice for parents? So say, you know, your child is going through the sex education and I agree

01:21:29.420 with you that, that it's, it's more important to have sexual education than allowing kids to kind of

01:21:34.600 go find their own knowledge out on the internet or wherever, where it might not be, uh, very accurate.

01:21:40.640 It's, it's, it's better to teach them in class, but obviously it needs to be based on,

01:21:44.780 on fact and not on ideology. Uh, so, you know, if, if, if, if a child is being taught something

01:21:50.440 in school, like, you know, the idea that the, the, that there's this gender unicorn that's coming

01:21:55.540 from the UK schools where they're teaching you that you can be any number of, of children or,

01:21:59.980 uh, CBC kids had, had a story that was talking about how JK Rowling was trans, uh, transphobic. I

01:22:06.560 mean, when, when the ideology seeps into, to, to teaching little kids as, as a parent, like what,

01:22:11.760 what can you do if you see that happening to your child in their school?

01:22:14.780 I would say number one, be aware because in a lot of cases, the parents don't even know,

01:22:21.040 oh, this is what the kids are being taught. Sometimes it's not formally documented because

01:22:25.540 teachers from my understanding do have some wiggle room in terms of, in terms of what they actually

01:22:29.440 do want to teach the kids. So be aware. Um, and if it comes down to it, don't feel bad about taking

01:22:36.640 your kids out of those classes, keeping them home. I've had colleagues do that. Um, another,

01:22:42.660 one of the reasons I wrote the book is to offer parents, a resource in terms of the scientific

01:22:46.800 studies showing exactly why these ideas are false. So something like, uh, gender is a spectrum.

01:22:53.620 If you go to the administration and say, this is not fact-based, they'll pull up materials from

01:22:58.480 activist groups and say, yes, it is because look at, this is what, you know, they say is,

01:23:02.740 is the newest science quote unquote. So this is why we're teaching this. So as a parent, you can

01:23:07.620 take the studies in the, in my book and say, no, this is, this is why what you're teaching

01:23:12.460 the kids is false because otherwise you really have no way of combating it because they'll just

01:23:17.080 say, well, the newest science shows this. So this is, this is what we're going with.

01:23:22.300 Well, maybe they can pick up a copy of your book and, and bring that into the, uh, into the schools

01:23:27.260 if, if they need to push back, uh, Dr. Dever, so it's been such a pleasure having you on, uh,

01:23:32.240 maybe let our, let our viewers know where they can find you, where they can read your stuff

01:23:35.720 and, uh, where, where to go. I'm on Twitter at Dr. Deborah. So, and I'm on Instagram at Dr. Deborah

01:23:42.900 W. So I write a monthly column for the Globe and Mail. Um, if you want to see all the different

01:23:48.380 myths, uh, in the end of gender, you can go to my website, which is Dr. Deborah. So.com

01:23:53.460 slash book, and you can get the end of gender on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble. Great. Well, 0.94

01:23:59.860 it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining the True North Speaker series.

01:24:03.620 Thank you so much for having me.

01:24:05.720 Thank you.

The Candice Malcolm Show - October 14, 2020

Ep. 16 ｜ Dr. Debora Soh ｜ Are we witnessing the end of gender？

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