The Candice Malcolm Show - Is Justin Trudeau losing his grip on reality？

00:00:00.040 Justin Trudeau insists on vilifying Canadians who don't agree with him.

00:00:04.100 I'm Candace Malcolm and this is The Candace Malcolm Show.

00:00:10.100 Hi everyone, thank you so much for tuning into the podcast.

00:00:13.060 This is becoming a theme here on The Candace Malcolm Show,

00:00:15.560 is that Justin Trudeau sees the world in a very black and white way.

00:00:19.140 According to Trudeau and according to his rhetoric,

00:00:21.380 which really he's heated up as of late,

00:00:23.220 we heard it throughout the election campaign

00:00:25.160 and now that we're back in lockdown,

00:00:26.920 Trudeau is sort of lashing out again

00:00:28.740 and his rhetoric is very angry

00:00:30.620 and according to him, everything that's wrong in the world,

00:00:33.700 all the ills of society and the entire reason why we're in lockdown,

00:00:36.620 not just lockdown, the reason why we have cues in our healthcare system,

00:00:39.460 the reason why people aren't getting proper care

00:00:41.340 when it comes to other illnesses like cancer,

00:00:43.440 it's all simply because of the unvaccinated.

00:00:46.140 If only those people would change their minds,

00:00:48.560 come around to his point of view, get vaccinated,

00:00:50.780 this whole thing would be behind us.

00:00:52.640 Well, that's a bit simplistic thinking

00:00:54.120 and to get into it a little bit more,

00:00:56.220 I am joined by a longtime journalist

00:00:58.520 and columnist with the Toronto Sun.

00:01:00.320 I'm talking about Laurie Goldstein.

00:01:02.100 Laurie Goldstein began his career with the Sun back in 1978,

00:01:05.780 starting out as a general assignment reporter.

00:01:08.020 He's covered politics at City Hall in Toronto,

00:01:10.760 as well as Crean's Park,

00:01:11.780 where he was the Toronto Sun's columnist

00:01:13.540 and burial chief from 1985 to 1990.

00:01:16.480 Laurie has held a variety of positions at the Sun,

00:01:18.360 including city editor, associate editor,

00:01:20.880 and comment editor.

00:01:21.660 Laurie Goldstein, welcome to the program.

00:01:23.280 Thank you so much for joining us.

00:01:24.820 Thank you for having me, Candice.

00:01:26.880 Well, you've seen it all

00:01:28.460 and you've been covering politics for a very long time.

00:01:31.080 So I want to ask you your opinion on the prime minister,

00:01:35.480 on his approach, his communication approach,

00:01:38.220 as well as his handling in general of the pandemic.

00:01:42.060 And why do you think we're seeing him get so angry

00:01:44.720 and lash out so much at the unvaccinated here in Canada?

00:01:48.420 Well, I think it's political and it's unfortunate.

00:01:51.980 The Trudeau government has polls,

00:01:54.020 both internally and externally,

00:01:55.200 that shows that a lot of Canadians

00:01:58.140 are angry at the unvaccinated.

00:02:00.440 And so he's playing to that.

00:02:02.820 To me, that's not what a leader is supposed to do.

00:02:05.040 A leader in a time of crisis

00:02:06.240 is supposed to bring people together.

00:02:07.980 But it's beyond that.

00:02:10.920 Sometimes he makes a distinction

00:02:12.580 between people who are genuinely vaccine hesitant

00:02:15.560 and people who have medical exemptions

00:02:19.700 and children who can't be vaccinated,

00:02:22.620 very young children.

00:02:23.940 Sometimes he doesn't.

00:02:25.420 Sometimes, as you said,

00:02:26.700 it's just this tsunami of anger

00:02:29.420 directed at the unvaccinated.

00:02:32.140 And to me, that's wrong.

00:02:34.180 It's wrong in the facts.

00:02:36.120 And it's not what we need as a country.

00:02:40.080 Abacus Data, who's a pollster,

00:02:41.920 who's hardly critical of the liberals,

00:02:44.600 did some very interesting polling over the summer.

00:02:48.180 And it found that the people

00:02:50.760 who don't want to be vaccinated

00:02:52.260 are into two groups.

00:02:53.840 One of them are what we call the vaccine hesitant.

00:02:56.780 That may be a bad term.

00:02:58.060 Maybe call it vaccine skeptics.

00:03:00.360 And the other is people

00:03:01.520 who are what we would call anti-vaxxers.

00:03:03.660 They will never get vaccinated.

00:03:05.660 But half of that group,

00:03:07.100 millions of Canadians,

00:03:08.640 are people who are genuinely concerned

00:03:11.600 about their health

00:03:13.440 when it comes to the vaccines.

00:03:16.860 Abacus Data found they are not ideologues.

00:03:19.540 They vote along the same lines as in elections,

00:03:23.480 as they stand on this issue.

00:03:27.080 They're just genuinely skeptical

00:03:28.800 of government in general,

00:03:30.580 more so than, I guess, the average person.

00:03:32.960 And they have legitimate concerns.

00:03:35.920 And they're the group we can reach.

00:03:38.180 They're the group.

00:03:38.940 So in other words,

00:03:39.420 we can probably cut by half

00:03:40.880 the 4 million Canadians

00:03:42.620 who aren't getting vaccinated

00:03:43.720 if we keep sending the right messages to them.

00:03:46.800 When I wrote that column,

00:03:48.400 people thought that it would be,

00:03:49.860 I would get a negative reaction.

00:03:51.160 I got an enormously positive reaction.

00:03:53.260 And I had heartbreaking emails

00:03:55.900 from people who were denied access

00:03:59.220 to their family over Christmas,

00:04:00.800 even though they agreed to be tested.

00:04:04.680 And when you look at their concerns,

00:04:07.640 these were not crazy people.

00:04:09.600 They were people who had watched

00:04:11.180 what the government told them.

00:04:12.900 And a lot of it didn't jibe

00:04:15.060 with what they were seeing

00:04:16.600 and what happened.

00:04:17.820 Now, the other part of my column

00:04:19.340 was to say that Prime Minister Trudeau

00:04:22.420 and Ontario Premier Doug Ford

00:04:24.880 have contributed to this vaccine hesitancy.

00:04:27.800 How have they contributed to it?

00:04:29.600 OK.

00:04:30.520 Well, a lot of information

00:04:32.300 has now come out.

00:04:33.500 For example,

00:04:34.200 one of the original things

00:04:35.460 that caused an uproar,

00:04:36.940 the Public Health Agency of Canada

00:04:38.260 saying it would be worse

00:04:39.700 to wear a mask,

00:04:42.220 less safe than wearing vaccines.

00:04:44.620 And then it did a complete about face.

00:04:47.940 Now we know

00:04:48.740 that when the Public Health Agency of Canada

00:04:50.860 was telling us not to wear vaccines,

00:04:53.760 there was a-

00:04:54.140 Wear masks, I think you mean.

00:04:55.240 Wear masks, I'm sorry, wear masks.

00:04:56.980 There was a critical shortage

00:04:58.320 of masks and personal protection equipment

00:05:00.940 in the country

00:05:02.140 because the Public Health Agency of Canada

00:05:05.400 had ignored warnings

00:05:06.780 for more than a decade

00:05:07.980 to make sure we had secure stockpiles

00:05:10.420 of masks, ventilators, all those things.

00:05:12.880 And the provincial governments

00:05:14.860 had failed as well.

00:05:16.640 So in other words,

00:05:17.940 that wasn't a thing based on science.

00:05:20.720 It was that there was a shortage

00:05:22.000 and they needed to preserve

00:05:23.800 the masks for people

00:05:26.880 who were healthcare workers.

00:05:27.760 Now, if they told people the truth,

00:05:29.860 then people would have understood that.

00:05:31.300 OK, you screwed up,

00:05:32.800 but we got to deal with this,

00:05:33.800 so let's deal with it now.

00:05:37.120 The, well,

00:05:38.440 the efficacy versus the efficiency

00:05:40.660 of vaccines.

00:05:41.620 Remember when we were all told

00:05:43.000 at the start

00:05:43.480 that it was,

00:05:44.580 they were not,

00:05:45.260 their efficacy rate was 90%.

00:05:47.040 Efficacy doesn't mean efficiency.

00:05:50.120 Efficacy is what happens

00:05:51.360 when you have ideal conditions

00:05:52.620 with a test group

00:05:53.600 and a placebo group

00:05:54.980 and you're making sure

00:05:56.040 that all of them

00:05:56.580 are following the instructions

00:05:57.660 and yada, yada, yada.

00:05:59.680 Efficiency is what happens

00:06:00.700 in the real world.

00:06:01.720 And what we see now

00:06:02.860 is that efficiency

00:06:03.780 is very different

00:06:04.960 from efficacy.

00:06:06.660 And I want to be clear.

00:06:07.580 I've taken my vaccines.

00:06:08.920 I've taken the booster shot.

00:06:10.580 I think people should.

00:06:11.980 But as you're discussing

00:06:13.640 on this show,

00:06:15.100 it's what our leadership

00:06:16.540 has been doing to us.

00:06:18.000 Remember when they said to us,

00:06:20.460 closing the borders

00:06:21.200 won't do any good.

00:06:22.840 The vaccine doesn't respect borders.

00:06:28.020 Quarantines,

00:06:28.740 bringing in people

00:06:29.420 from planes coming in,

00:06:30.940 that's really not going to help

00:06:32.080 because it's already here.

00:06:32.920 We now know

00:06:34.960 that when they were saying that

00:06:36.520 from documents

00:06:37.200 that have since been released,

00:06:38.800 that when the government

00:06:39.460 was saying that,

00:06:40.300 it was being advised

00:06:41.180 by its own experts,

00:06:43.760 you don't have the capacity

00:06:44.980 to do quarantines

00:06:46.800 at the airport.

00:06:48.880 You don't have the capacity

00:06:50.020 to check everyone out.

00:06:52.100 So again,

00:06:53.800 that's not,

00:06:54.500 they weren't honest

00:06:55.220 and truthful with us.

00:06:56.940 Just tell us that,

00:06:58.300 look, we have the largest

00:06:59.160 unguarded border in the world.

00:07:02.440 We have people coming in

00:07:03.440 from all over the world.

00:07:04.820 We don't have the capacity,

00:07:06.120 but they didn't.

00:07:07.040 They argued it was bad to do.

00:07:09.360 And now we know

00:07:10.080 that countries that did it,

00:07:11.860 admittedly,

00:07:12.360 many of them islands

00:07:13.220 like Taiwan,

00:07:14.740 which did better

00:07:15.420 than anybody in the world,

00:07:16.980 did this from the day

00:07:18.460 they knew

00:07:19.220 that the Chinese government

00:07:20.980 was talking about

00:07:22.040 a SARS-like virus.

00:07:23.400 That was December 30th, 2020.

00:07:26.760 And they moved right away

00:07:28.600 and they had better data

00:07:29.640 than we did

00:07:30.100 and all those things.

00:07:31.000 But what I'm saying

00:07:31.880 is that these things

00:07:32.780 contribute to vaccine hesitancy.

00:07:35.880 You remember

00:07:36.360 when the prime minister

00:07:37.380 and many others,

00:07:39.200 Premier Ford

00:07:39.960 and many politicians said,

00:07:41.580 the best vaccine

00:07:42.880 is the first vaccine

00:07:44.020 you can get.

00:07:45.560 And then the National Action Committee

00:07:46.880 on Immunization,

00:07:49.540 Advisory Committee,

00:07:50.920 went,

00:07:51.280 well, no,

00:07:51.760 actually Pfizer

00:07:52.860 and Moderna

00:07:53.480 are better than AZ

00:07:54.680 because AZ

00:07:55.580 might clot your blood.

00:07:57.360 And then the chairman

00:07:58.080 of NACI

00:07:58.600 goes on national television

00:07:59.980 and says that

00:08:00.980 if her sister died

00:08:02.280 from a blood clot

00:08:03.560 from AZ,

00:08:04.580 she could never

00:08:05.280 live with herself.

00:08:07.800 But that if,

00:08:08.180 but that if,

00:08:09.360 but if the COVID

00:08:10.740 was really rampant

00:08:11.720 in your community,

00:08:12.400 then you should take AZ.

00:08:14.620 So as many people observed,

00:08:16.360 so now they're telling us

00:08:17.440 to take the bad one

00:08:18.620 in the places

00:08:20.180 where the vaccines

00:08:21.860 are most needed.

00:08:22.720 I took AstraZeneca

00:08:25.320 and I went through hoops

00:08:27.360 to get my second dose

00:08:28.780 of AstraZeneca

00:08:29.520 when the government

00:08:30.220 was telling us,

00:08:31.240 no,

00:08:31.420 we're stopping those

00:08:32.380 for first

00:08:32.860 and we're stopping

00:08:34.420 them for second.

00:08:35.620 And I'm like,

00:08:35.960 what are you doing?

00:08:37.120 I've read the stuff

00:08:38.560 on the risk.

00:08:40.800 It's the one I took first.

00:08:42.460 I did it because

00:08:43.260 I was a good citizen.

00:08:44.640 I listened to you

00:08:45.600 when you said,

00:08:46.540 you know,

00:08:47.140 we were the early ones,

00:08:48.240 right?

00:08:48.320 We were the early guinea pigs.

00:08:49.300 We got the first vaccines,

00:08:50.600 right?

00:08:51.360 Now you're changing the rules.

00:08:53.120 You're telling me

00:08:53.780 I made a mistake.

00:08:55.540 You're trying to deny me

00:08:57.060 access to the one.

00:08:58.580 Now you tell me

00:08:59.040 to take another one.

00:09:00.040 No,

00:09:00.480 that wasn't the deal.

00:09:02.680 And having said that,

00:09:03.760 I've since been boosted

00:09:04.800 with Pfizer

00:09:05.740 because now I think

00:09:06.380 there's been a lot more data

00:09:07.280 and I'm more comfortable.

00:09:08.760 But to not think

00:09:09.980 that decisions like that

00:09:11.500 by all governments

00:09:12.460 in Canada

00:09:13.020 didn't contribute

00:09:14.060 to people

00:09:14.580 who were already hesitant

00:09:15.620 for their own reasons,

00:09:17.080 who may have had

00:09:17.920 bad reactions

00:09:19.060 to flu vaccines,

00:09:19.940 to sort of dismiss

00:09:22.120 those people

00:09:23.100 as the people

00:09:24.200 that are now

00:09:24.920 forcing people

00:09:25.740 not to have cancer surgeries.

00:09:29.020 It's,

00:09:30.140 I don't want to overstate it,

00:09:32.120 but to me,

00:09:32.800 politically,

00:09:33.440 that is evil.

00:09:35.280 This is a much more

00:09:36.300 complicated issue

00:09:37.180 than that.

00:09:37.960 There are people,

00:09:38.860 I agree,

00:09:39.620 the ones who go

00:09:40.380 and protest outside hospitals,

00:09:42.160 you know,

00:09:43.100 and stop political meetings

00:09:45.320 and throw rocks

00:09:46.800 at the prime minister

00:09:47.440 or pebbles.

00:09:48.440 That's insane.

00:09:49.260 And we all agree

00:09:50.400 with that.

00:09:51.620 But this is a nuanced problem.

00:09:55.120 And to me,

00:09:56.420 the reason Trudeau's doing it

00:09:58.040 is he's very smart politically.

00:10:00.500 He knows that

00:10:01.580 if this thing gets worse

00:10:02.900 and worse and worse,

00:10:04.360 people are going to look

00:10:05.720 for scapegoats

00:10:07.680 and the scapegoat

00:10:08.420 will be him

00:10:09.040 and the premiers.

00:10:10.400 So very early on,

00:10:11.700 he's establishing this idea

00:10:13.120 that all of the problems

00:10:14.880 we've had,

00:10:15.560 all of the failures,

00:10:16.600 all of the misinformation,

00:10:18.740 all of the fact

00:10:19.660 that we were late

00:10:20.280 in getting vaccines

00:10:21.120 because the Trudeau government

00:10:22.400 was,

00:10:23.380 for reasons no one understands,

00:10:25.320 thinking that it would be

00:10:26.260 a good idea

00:10:26.760 to have a Chinese company

00:10:28.040 do our vaccines.

00:10:29.200 At the same time,

00:10:29.900 they were holding

00:10:30.800 Canadians hostage.

00:10:32.020 They were committing genocide

00:10:33.080 with the Uyghurs.

00:10:33.880 They were threatening Taiwan.

00:10:38.320 All that stuff.

00:10:40.040 And his government

00:10:40.840 was negotiating with,

00:10:43.580 and it wasn't,

00:10:44.120 to fairness,

00:10:44.600 it wasn't the company

00:10:45.420 that screwed it up.

00:10:47.980 It was the Chinese government.

00:10:50.560 And they knew

00:10:52.200 that had happened

00:10:52.880 for months and months,

00:10:53.620 but they didn't say anything.

00:10:54.980 Then they announced it.

00:10:56.400 And then they said,

00:10:57.360 and then,

00:10:57.840 so people made

00:10:58.660 the logical conclusion.

00:10:59.480 Well, you were late

00:11:00.200 to the party getting vaccines

00:11:01.700 because you idiotically thought

00:11:03.340 this was a good idea.

00:11:05.540 All those things

00:11:06.660 are why we are here today.

00:11:08.400 And there have been failures

00:11:09.240 in the provinces,

00:11:10.020 no doubt.

00:11:10.720 You know,

00:11:11.380 they didn't take this seriously.

00:11:12.720 At the beginning

00:11:13.720 of the rollout,

00:11:14.260 they weren't prepared

00:11:14.920 when they finally started

00:11:15.880 getting the vaccines.

00:11:17.240 They did a bad job

00:11:18.320 of getting them out.

00:11:19.740 So the point is that

00:11:20.820 all these are the reasons

00:11:21.920 we're here today.

00:11:23.240 And this is happening

00:11:24.380 in every country.

00:11:25.800 It's not because

00:11:26.600 unvaccinated people

00:11:27.820 in Canada

00:11:28.440 are uniquely evil.

00:11:30.440 This is happening

00:11:31.120 all over the world.

00:11:32.280 This is what they,

00:11:33.100 you know,

00:11:33.220 they call a wicked problem.

00:11:35.340 And so this is not a time,

00:11:36.780 in my view,

00:11:37.760 that you divide Canadians.

00:11:39.800 You try to reach out

00:11:41.480 to them as much as you can

00:11:42.720 to try to bring people

00:11:44.180 together as much as you can.

00:11:46.420 That's what great leaders do.

00:11:48.360 That's what John F. Kennedy did.

00:11:51.680 That's what in Ontario,

00:11:53.140 I would say,

00:11:53.640 Bill Davis tried to do.

00:11:55.800 He didn't segment off the,

00:11:57.560 and one of the chief

00:11:59.480 liberal strategists

00:12:00.500 during the federal election

00:12:01.420 after it,

00:12:02.860 boasted about the fact

00:12:03.960 that they had successfully

00:12:05.040 hived off slices

00:12:06.500 of the Canadian population

00:12:08.660 so they could win an election

00:12:10.580 with the lowest level

00:12:11.800 of popular support

00:12:12.740 in Canadian history

00:12:13.920 and that that was a good thing.

00:12:15.920 That slicing off

00:12:17.080 those little things

00:12:17.960 and appealing to this group

00:12:19.180 and making this group

00:12:20.300 hate this group,

00:12:21.120 that's how we won.

00:12:22.580 Well,

00:12:23.340 he's doing the same thing now.

00:12:25.900 Well,

00:12:26.000 it's like the balkanization

00:12:26.900 of our country.

00:12:27.920 It's not going to last

00:12:28.520 if you continue to just

00:12:29.360 openly pit people

00:12:30.400 against people

00:12:31.220 and pit them

00:12:32.240 against each other.

00:12:32.880 Lauren,

00:12:33.040 I think you did a great job

00:12:33.900 of explaining all the many reasons

00:12:35.700 why one might be skeptical

00:12:37.580 or hesitant

00:12:38.260 or at least say like,

00:12:39.540 hey,

00:12:39.620 let's wait and see.

00:12:40.440 You know,

00:12:40.900 I think it'd be perfectly reasonable

00:12:42.720 to say,

00:12:43.480 let's just wait and see

00:12:44.460 how this vaccine rollout goes

00:12:45.900 for the exact reasons

00:12:46.720 you laid out.

00:12:47.480 You know,

00:12:47.600 my husband and I

00:12:48.320 were keen to get vaccinated

00:12:49.500 because we just wanted

00:12:50.320 to go back to normal.

00:12:51.620 We were down in Florida

00:12:52.320 and our plan was to get

00:12:53.280 the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.

00:12:55.540 We wanted to be one and done

00:12:56.620 and we literally,

00:12:58.380 we had our appointment scheduled.

00:13:00.820 We were in Florida

00:13:01.520 when Florida Governor

00:13:03.560 Ron DeSantos

00:13:04.440 and the U.S. CDC

00:13:05.600 banned Johnson & Johnson

00:13:07.680 so they were pulling it

00:13:08.440 because of concerns

00:13:09.720 about adverse reactions

00:13:11.780 and so,

00:13:12.660 you know,

00:13:12.860 those are the kind of things

00:13:14.140 that would make you

00:13:14.700 sort of pause saying,

00:13:16.280 you know,

00:13:16.440 I'm glad I didn't get it

00:13:17.160 because now they're saying

00:13:18.100 it's not safe

00:13:18.660 even though,

00:13:19.480 you know,

00:13:19.900 six hours ago

00:13:20.700 they were insisting

00:13:21.680 that it was safe

00:13:22.320 and then there's another layer

00:13:23.680 on top of that

00:13:24.380 that you didn't mention

00:13:25.400 but this is the social media

00:13:26.740 censorship that we have seen

00:13:28.160 which just,

00:13:29.220 in my view,

00:13:29.780 further fuels

00:13:31.320 the hesitancy

00:13:32.620 and the skepticism

00:13:33.360 if you sow

00:13:35.200 any kind of doubt

00:13:36.160 about the safety of vaccines,

00:13:37.660 if you ask questions,

00:13:38.620 if you raise

00:13:39.620 valid medical concerns,

00:13:40.760 if you look at the way

00:13:42.020 that the trials were run

00:13:45.180 and you ask scientifically

00:13:46.580 legitimate questions

00:13:47.540 about that,

00:13:48.500 you get kicked off of Twitter,

00:13:49.720 you get banned from YouTube,

00:13:50.700 you get your page

00:13:52.880 removed from Facebook

00:13:53.660 and so,

00:13:54.460 you know,

00:13:54.720 the fact that we have

00:13:55.400 all of these sort of forces

00:13:56.620 conspiring to silence

00:13:58.780 one side of the conversation

00:13:59.980 and then we have people

00:14:01.400 like Justin Trudeau

00:14:02.440 demonizing them,

00:14:03.820 I think we're in a tough place

00:14:06.580 as a country,

00:14:07.560 as a society right now,

00:14:09.020 Laurie,

00:14:09.380 I mean,

00:14:09.820 the people that I talk to

00:14:11.060 who are vaccine hesitant

00:14:13.040 and don't want to take this drug

00:14:15.020 or worry that their kids

00:14:16.140 are going to be forced to,

00:14:16.940 they're upset about schools

00:14:17.860 getting canceled once again,

00:14:19.020 I mean,

00:14:19.840 they have legitimate feelings,

00:14:21.360 I think,

00:14:21.980 of feeling bullied

00:14:23.400 and persecuted

00:14:24.240 and singled out

00:14:25.260 and I know a lot of Canadians

00:14:26.820 in that situation

00:14:27.700 are talking about up

00:14:28.560 and leaving the country

00:14:29.400 because they just don't feel

00:14:31.080 safe and comfortable,

00:14:32.200 I mean,

00:14:32.660 what a sort of sad reflection

00:14:34.380 on our country,

00:14:35.840 what do you think

00:14:36.620 the way out of this,

00:14:37.940 how can we sort of heal these,

00:14:40.180 mend these wounds

00:14:41.400 and move forward

00:14:42.400 post-COVID

00:14:43.400 if that ever does happen,

00:14:45.080 but what do you think

00:14:46.080 should be done here?

00:14:46.760 I don't think a politician

00:14:48.640 has given their record

00:14:49.440 can do anything.

00:14:51.620 It has to be,

00:14:53.140 it has to be our civility

00:14:54.600 towards one another.

00:14:55.680 It has to be

00:14:56.640 that we all live together

00:14:57.880 in a social contract.

00:14:59.880 It has to be that,

00:15:01.400 and look,

00:15:01.940 you know,

00:15:02.420 let's be honest,

00:15:03.360 I mean,

00:15:04.320 I'm as much,

00:15:04.820 I was much a part of this

00:15:05.780 as anybody.

00:15:06.540 I think I mentioned

00:15:07.260 that one of the,

00:15:07.920 I think the great failures

00:15:08.860 of our industry

00:15:10.420 was at the beginning

00:15:11.360 not to explain

00:15:12.520 that 90% efficacy

00:15:13.940 didn't mean 90% efficiency.

00:15:17.020 It didn't mean

00:15:17.760 nine out of 10 people

00:15:18.580 weren't going to get it.

00:15:19.940 It meant,

00:15:20.400 it meant in ideal conditions,

00:15:22.100 that's about as good

00:15:23.960 as it can get.

00:15:25.200 And then,

00:15:25.480 of course,

00:15:25.780 there were the game changers.

00:15:27.100 The fact that

00:15:28.220 we learned that

00:15:29.400 even if you've been vaccinated,

00:15:31.440 you can transmit it

00:15:32.480 to other people.

00:15:34.060 Although,

00:15:34.740 that these are not vaccines

00:15:36.200 like measles vaccines,

00:15:37.740 where if you're vaccinated,

00:15:39.200 you can go in a room

00:15:39.980 full of people

00:15:40.940 who will have measles,

00:15:42.160 and you're all likelihood

00:15:43.480 not going to get it.

00:15:44.640 That doesn't mean

00:15:45.080 the vaccines were bad.

00:15:47.620 I mean,

00:15:48.120 you know,

00:15:48.740 obviously there was a goal

00:15:50.400 to this is going to kill

00:15:51.200 a lot of people.

00:15:51.840 We've got to make them

00:15:52.440 so that it will make people

00:15:53.700 less sick.

00:15:54.320 And they certainly,

00:15:55.080 I agree to that.

00:15:57.160 But,

00:15:57.180 but,

00:15:57.460 but my concern is always

00:15:59.880 that you can make,

00:16:01.040 you can make societal changes

00:16:03.420 that damage us

00:16:04.440 for decades to come

00:16:05.600 in the space of

00:16:07.020 a few months.

00:16:08.480 You can establish

00:16:09.660 a level of distrust

00:16:10.980 that Canadians

00:16:12.460 might have

00:16:13.320 of their government

00:16:14.000 and more important

00:16:15.360 that they might have

00:16:15.960 of each other

00:16:16.500 that will,

00:16:17.780 will supersede

00:16:18.860 the pandemic

00:16:19.520 because we'll get over

00:16:20.360 this pandemic,

00:16:21.160 all pandemics end.

00:16:23.340 It's similar to what

00:16:24.120 I always say to people

00:16:25.100 when years ago

00:16:26.140 there was a teacher strike

00:16:27.120 and the son was,

00:16:29.620 that a paper I worked for

00:16:30.380 was against the strike.

00:16:31.580 And I had all kinds

00:16:32.500 of teachers phoning me

00:16:33.380 and saying,

00:16:33.700 I don't want to strike.

00:16:34.540 I don't want to go out.

00:16:35.300 This is ridiculous.

00:16:36.100 What do I do?

00:16:37.180 And I told them,

00:16:38.080 go out.

00:16:38.380 And they said,

00:16:39.860 but your paper is saying,

00:16:41.060 you know,

00:16:41.700 that there shouldn't

00:16:42.380 be a strike.

00:16:43.240 I said, yes,

00:16:44.380 but if you don't go out,

00:16:46.600 your life will be hell.

00:16:48.440 When after the,

00:16:49.680 this will be resolved

00:16:50.500 in two weeks

00:16:51.320 and in a month,

00:16:52.280 if you don't go out

00:16:53.440 with them,

00:16:54.360 and sadly,

00:16:55.580 some people,

00:16:56.240 I know that happened to,

00:16:57.400 they were ostracized.

00:16:58.600 So,

00:16:58.920 so that's the concern

00:16:59.920 for me beyond

00:17:00.820 what's happening right now,

00:17:02.320 the churn

00:17:02.780 and the yelling

00:17:03.360 and this and the that.

00:17:05.200 It's that we may,

00:17:07.060 I think Canadians

00:17:08.120 have always been good

00:17:09.200 at acting with each other.

00:17:11.200 When Quebec gets hit

00:17:12.220 by the ice storm,

00:17:13.240 I don't think the vast majority

00:17:14.460 of Canadians objected

00:17:15.560 to sending in help

00:17:16.980 when there was flooding

00:17:17.920 in BC.

00:17:18.860 I don't think the vast majority

00:17:20.100 of Canadians,

00:17:21.000 you know,

00:17:21.180 we didn't have that,

00:17:22.500 what they call in the states,

00:17:23.720 I guess,

00:17:23.980 the blue state,

00:17:25.020 red state division.

00:17:26.900 But under the liberals,

00:17:28.780 I think we're starting

00:17:29.940 to have a sort of

00:17:31.480 Western Canada,

00:17:32.740 Eastern Canada thing

00:17:34.940 that's always been there.

00:17:36.060 But I think,

00:17:36.580 I think it's now getting

00:17:37.480 to an very unfortunate level.

00:17:40.320 And,

00:17:40.840 you know,

00:17:41.740 when you look at our country,

00:17:43.100 we're in,

00:17:43.740 we're in an unlikely country.

00:17:46.120 We,

00:17:46.620 you know,

00:17:46.820 we have the second largest

00:17:47.960 man last in the world,

00:17:49.400 a very small population,

00:17:51.300 mostly right around the border.

00:17:52.840 And so it's important

00:17:54.160 that our,

00:17:54.700 our interprovincial

00:17:56.480 and national ties

00:17:58.000 stay strong.

00:17:59.660 And so that to me

00:18:01.020 is the danger

00:18:01.640 of the kind of rhetoric

00:18:02.680 that the prime minister

00:18:05.340 is using.

00:18:06.080 He's done it,

00:18:06.600 by the way.

00:18:07.020 This isn't the first time.

00:18:08.400 He did it in August

00:18:09.240 during the election

00:18:10.160 and he blamed

00:18:11.720 Aaron O'Toole

00:18:12.840 for these demonstrations

00:18:14.440 that were disrupting

00:18:15.360 his thing.

00:18:16.500 Aaron O'Toole

00:18:16.940 had in fact said

00:18:18.000 as soon as they happened,

00:18:19.260 that's wrong,

00:18:19.960 stop doing it.

00:18:20.880 You have no place

00:18:21.480 in the Conservative Party

00:18:22.320 if you're trying to shut down

00:18:23.560 the prime minister

00:18:24.400 of Canada speaking.

00:18:25.680 And yet Trudeau

00:18:26.180 still blamed him

00:18:27.120 because of,

00:18:27.960 because they knew

00:18:28.780 that that was

00:18:29.320 a popular thing to do,

00:18:30.880 to find a villain.

00:18:32.100 You know what it is.

00:18:33.160 When things are scary,

00:18:34.320 you want a scapegoat,

00:18:35.740 right?

00:18:36.180 So it's the unvaccinated.

00:18:37.860 The problem is,

00:18:38.780 and I'm not making

00:18:39.420 a direct comparison,

00:18:40.640 but we've seen in history

00:18:42.000 what can happen

00:18:42.780 when a particular segment

00:18:44.240 of the population

00:18:45.060 is blamed for everything,

00:18:47.600 is blamed for,

00:18:49.000 is blamed for willfully

00:18:52.000 not doing something

00:18:53.020 that they could do,

00:18:54.040 that the solution

00:18:54.860 is just if these people

00:18:56.260 don't do this anymore.

00:18:58.120 We've seen what can happen.

00:18:59.180 And it's,

00:19:01.500 it's a scary prospect.

00:19:04.580 Well, absolutely.

00:19:05.360 And I would put,

00:19:06.520 I mean,

00:19:06.680 I completely agree

00:19:07.800 with the criticism

00:19:09.460 you have about Trudeau

00:19:10.500 and how he's made

00:19:11.640 the country more divided.

00:19:12.700 I mean,

00:19:13.100 after his victory

00:19:14.400 in 2019,

00:19:15.020 we saw the rise

00:19:15.980 of both the bloc

00:19:17.080 Quebecois gaining back

00:19:18.500 a lot of the ground

00:19:19.280 that they had lost

00:19:19.840 in previous elections,

00:19:20.800 as well as a new

00:19:21.860 sort of Wexit movement

00:19:22.820 of people in Alberta

00:19:24.320 and Western Canada

00:19:24.940 who just sort of fed up

00:19:25.780 with his anti-energy policies.

00:19:28.700 But, you know,

00:19:30.020 part of the problem

00:19:30.900 is Trudeau

00:19:31.660 and part of the problem,

00:19:32.880 in my mind,

00:19:33.360 is the media

00:19:33.800 and the way they cover it.

00:19:34.560 And I know you commented

00:19:35.780 on this sort of

00:19:36.840 high-profile exit

00:19:38.680 from the CBC,

00:19:39.640 a journalist named

00:19:40.580 Tara Henley

00:19:41.420 who wrote a lengthy blog

00:19:43.440 really laying out

00:19:44.640 some of the real problems

00:19:46.000 over at the state broadcaster.

00:19:47.920 And one of the things

00:19:48.940 that she mentioned

00:19:49.420 was the sort of

00:19:50.360 new attitude

00:19:50.980 where journalists

00:19:52.300 don't question the narrative

00:19:53.720 or don't question

00:19:54.540 the direction

00:19:56.160 and policies

00:19:56.940 of the government

00:19:58.080 or big corporations

00:19:59.120 and instead

00:20:00.040 they sort of focus

00:20:00.760 their ire on people

00:20:01.900 that they disagree with

00:20:03.520 or people who have

00:20:04.280 unpopular,

00:20:05.000 unfashionable views.

00:20:06.980 So I want to make you

00:20:08.100 comment a little bit

00:20:09.020 on sort of the CBC

00:20:10.440 and how the sort of

00:20:13.620 culture over there

00:20:14.680 has an impact

00:20:15.960 on all Canadians

00:20:17.000 and certainly our political

00:20:17.920 culture in this country.

00:20:19.640 Yeah, I don't think

00:20:20.820 she said anything

00:20:21.360 that surprised a lot of people

00:20:22.700 in terms of the criticism

00:20:23.700 and a lot of people

00:20:24.380 feel that way

00:20:25.540 about the CBC.

00:20:27.420 She also did reference items

00:20:28.700 that had to do

00:20:29.220 with the pandemic

00:20:29.920 in terms of how

00:20:30.760 they've reported it.

00:20:34.440 Look,

00:20:35.100 every media organization

00:20:36.300 has a culture.

00:20:37.840 The CBC does.

00:20:39.200 The Toronto Sun does.

00:20:40.740 The difference is,

00:20:41.620 of course,

00:20:41.960 that you don't have

00:20:42.580 to buy the Sun.

00:20:43.440 You have to buy the CBC.

00:20:46.460 And I think she was,

00:20:49.800 and this was a person

00:20:50.760 who had been there

00:20:51.320 as a producer

00:20:52.100 of TV and radio shows

00:20:53.100 and an occasional columnist

00:20:54.200 who went,

00:20:54.980 there is this group thing

00:20:56.100 that says that there

00:20:57.300 are certain correct

00:20:58.260 positions on issues

00:20:59.620 and that other positions

00:21:01.420 are invalid.

00:21:04.200 Personally,

00:21:04.780 when I wrote about

00:21:05.560 what she said,

00:21:06.440 I said that

00:21:07.140 I've thought that

00:21:08.160 for years.

00:21:08.660 I think that if you look

00:21:09.820 at the mindset

00:21:11.320 of the CBC,

00:21:12.660 it is much closer

00:21:14.400 to the views

00:21:15.160 of Justin Trudeau

00:21:16.040 and the Liberals

00:21:16.640 than it is

00:21:17.700 Aaron O'Toole

00:21:18.700 or whoever

00:21:19.160 the conservative

00:21:19.680 leader happens

00:21:20.220 to be

00:21:20.560 and the conservative

00:21:22.840 party,

00:21:23.260 if you look

00:21:23.540 at issues

00:21:23.800 like freedom,

00:21:24.880 if you look

00:21:25.200 at issues

00:21:25.600 like climate change,

00:21:27.120 if you look

00:21:27.580 at hate crime,

00:21:29.720 law and order,

00:21:31.140 and I think

00:21:33.920 that is something

00:21:35.740 that we should

00:21:36.560 be worried about.

00:21:37.860 Now,

00:21:38.740 the Toronto Sun

00:21:39.360 has a conservative view,

00:21:41.240 but we don't go out

00:21:42.600 and do research

00:21:43.780 to tell Canadians

00:21:45.100 not to use words

00:21:46.360 like lame

00:21:47.820 and grandfathering in.

00:21:51.360 What was the CBC

00:21:53.300 thinking of?

00:21:54.480 We don't do a poll

00:21:56.000 that specifically

00:21:57.200 talks about,

00:21:58.660 you know,

00:21:59.180 less than half,

00:22:00.580 almost half,

00:22:01.180 but less than half

00:22:01.740 of Canadians

00:22:02.240 would be comfortable

00:22:02.980 moving to Alberta.

00:22:04.980 What was that about?

00:22:06.800 They didn't ask

00:22:07.460 any other,

00:22:08.420 they didn't ask people

00:22:09.140 living anywhere else,

00:22:10.040 well,

00:22:10.480 where would they be?

00:22:12.340 And I remember,

00:22:13.300 like,

00:22:13.820 I remember tweeting

00:22:14.380 on it and going,

00:22:15.500 okay,

00:22:16.360 but what about,

00:22:17.580 most people like

00:22:18.260 where they live?

00:22:19.120 That's the simple truth.

00:22:21.420 So there was

00:22:22.220 such a blowback

00:22:23.080 that the pollster

00:22:24.120 who did the first one

00:22:25.140 for them

00:22:25.580 went back

00:22:26.400 and asked the question

00:22:27.440 properly

00:22:28.040 all across the country.

00:22:29.620 And what happened?

00:22:31.380 Turns out that Alberta

00:22:32.520 was the,

00:22:33.820 in the top third

00:22:34.660 of places

00:22:35.200 that people would

00:22:35.920 be comfortable living

00:22:36.940 in Canada.

00:22:38.320 It was the exact

00:22:39.440 same level

00:22:40.100 as for Ontario.

00:22:41.940 And it was twice

00:22:43.280 as popular

00:22:43.860 as Quebec.

00:22:45.240 Now,

00:22:45.740 obviously,

00:22:46.340 Quebec has to do

00:22:47.120 with the language.

00:22:47.920 I'm not,

00:22:48.180 not trashing

00:22:49.140 the people of Quebec.

00:22:50.720 But,

00:22:50.900 but what would

00:22:51.820 cause you originally

00:22:52.920 when you're

00:22:53.800 in the story meeting

00:22:54.700 and you're talking

00:22:55.820 about,

00:22:56.320 let's do a poll

00:22:56.980 about where Canadians

00:22:57.960 would be,

00:22:59.060 that you would only

00:22:59.720 talk about Alberta

00:23:00.580 and that you would

00:23:01.620 organize the poll

00:23:02.620 only about Alberta

00:23:03.860 and then nobody

00:23:04.900 when they got the story

00:23:06.000 wouldn't have gone,

00:23:07.100 I mean,

00:23:07.360 I'm an editor,

00:23:08.360 you would have to be

00:23:09.160 a doofus

00:23:09.900 getting that information

00:23:10.900 not to go,

00:23:11.940 whoa,

00:23:12.040 wait a minute,

00:23:12.580 wait a minute,

00:23:13.340 we're going to say

00:23:14.020 less than half

00:23:14.680 of Canadians

00:23:15.160 are comfortable

00:23:15.660 living in Alberta?

00:23:16.880 What about

00:23:17.300 everywhere else?

00:23:18.500 And then when

00:23:18.920 they did the story,

00:23:20.920 rather than talking

00:23:22.780 about the key factors,

00:23:24.800 yeah,

00:23:24.940 well,

00:23:25.040 we said less than half,

00:23:26.100 well,

00:23:26.180 actually,

00:23:26.500 they're in the top third

00:23:27.300 and it's the same

00:23:28.240 as Ontario

00:23:28.840 and,

00:23:29.580 you know,

00:23:30.740 yada,

00:23:31.180 yada,

00:23:31.380 yada,

00:23:31.720 rather than doing

00:23:32.560 that truthfully

00:23:33.880 to sort of refute

00:23:35.900 what the first poll

00:23:36.980 had said,

00:23:38.220 they led off

00:23:38.940 that the most popular

00:23:40.040 places to live in

00:23:40.980 or to be comfortable

00:23:42.040 in were BC

00:23:42.940 and Atlantic Canada.

00:23:44.560 What's that got to do?

00:23:47.260 That's not the issue.

00:23:48.560 The issue is you did a poll

00:23:49.660 because you were trying

00:23:50.540 to smear Alberta.

00:23:52.180 So other media,

00:23:53.640 I think,

00:23:54.420 like,

00:23:54.660 and their complaints,

00:23:55.380 people complain about it all,

00:23:56.080 and they complain about the sun,

00:23:57.520 you know,

00:23:57.780 so I'm not,

00:23:58.460 I'm not trying to,

00:23:59.180 but it's,

00:23:59.940 it's,

00:24:00.540 and I did,

00:24:01.420 one of my first jobs

00:24:02.800 in media

00:24:03.360 was as a gopher

00:24:04.120 at CBC National Radio

00:24:06.700 when I was very young

00:24:07.480 and I've written that,

00:24:10.020 well,

00:24:10.120 it was the cast,

00:24:10.660 British cast system there.

00:24:12.040 My job,

00:24:12.760 I was lowest,

00:24:13.440 you know,

00:24:13.740 lowest,

00:24:14.160 last hired,

00:24:14.960 lowest down.

00:24:15.740 So my job was to smile

00:24:17.600 when people were having

00:24:18.540 a bad day

00:24:18.960 and they yelled at me,

00:24:19.840 but they,

00:24:21.300 they were serious journalists.

00:24:23.240 I mean,

00:24:23.800 when I dealt with those folks

00:24:25.540 in a very low level

00:24:26.820 and when,

00:24:27.700 when they allowed me

00:24:28.660 to start writing brief items,

00:24:30.180 they taught me

00:24:30.920 how to do things,

00:24:31.720 how to write it coherently,

00:24:32.840 how to write it accurately,

00:24:34.460 so,

00:24:35.020 you know,

00:24:35.740 back then to me,

00:24:36.600 it was a very different culture.

00:24:38.700 It,

00:24:39.080 whatever the fights

00:24:39.820 within the CBC were,

00:24:41.240 they were about

00:24:41.820 putting out the news accurately,

00:24:44.560 you know,

00:24:44.760 and they had icons

00:24:45.680 who did that.

00:24:47.000 I don't think it's the same anymore

00:24:48.160 and,

00:24:49.180 and it's the particular problem.

00:24:50.960 If they were privately run,

00:24:52.760 live long and prosper.

00:24:53.900 If you think that's where

00:24:54.880 your market is,

00:24:55.960 you know,

00:24:56.420 fill your boots,

00:24:57.320 but you're the national broadcaster.

00:25:00.100 You know,

00:25:00.680 you're supposed to,

00:25:01.420 you tell us that your mandate

00:25:02.500 is to look at,

00:25:03.500 you know,

00:25:03.960 things nationally.

00:25:04.540 When I asked the CBC,

00:25:07.040 well,

00:25:07.220 what about Tara Henley's things?

00:25:10.140 They said,

00:25:11.100 we disagree with her perspective.

00:25:13.220 We make every effort

00:25:14.220 to cover the diversity of views

00:25:16.060 in,

00:25:16.720 in Canada.

00:25:17.740 And that's not just our,

00:25:19.640 how did they word it?

00:25:21.180 It's not just what we do.

00:25:22.560 It's our responsibility.

00:25:23.680 I,

00:25:24.940 you know,

00:25:26.720 okay.

00:25:27.940 And,

00:25:28.320 and the person who said it to me,

00:25:29.440 I smart person

00:25:30.940 and,

00:25:31.260 and,

00:25:31.400 and I thank them for their,

00:25:32.820 their input.

00:25:34.440 But,

00:25:34.980 but I'm not sure that that's how

00:25:36.620 many Canadians would think

00:25:37.920 the CBC behaves today.

00:25:40.560 it's,

00:25:40.800 it's so interesting,

00:25:41.960 Laurie,

00:25:42.140 because it's sort of like

00:25:42.920 the worst of the worst

00:25:44.100 of the sort of the fringe,

00:25:45.040 far left ideology,

00:25:46.180 the dogma,

00:25:47.120 the way that they look into

00:25:48.900 and pull out race

00:25:50.000 as a center of every aspect

00:25:51.500 of every story.

00:25:52.300 Like that,

00:25:52.700 like a story can't be about,

00:25:53.960 you know,

00:25:54.740 a community,

00:25:56.040 or it can't be about a family.

00:25:57.080 It has to,

00:25:57.860 they have to focus on the issue of race,

00:25:59.920 which is often so divisive.

00:26:01.520 It's like,

00:26:02.280 it's like people sitting around,

00:26:03.860 you mentioned earlier in the interview

00:26:05.020 that Canada doesn't have the same

00:26:06.540 sort of red state,

00:26:07.720 blue state divide,

00:26:08.800 where we're,

00:26:09.140 we're sort of coming apart as a country.

00:26:11.240 We're pretty,

00:26:12.120 you know,

00:26:12.620 united in some ways.

00:26:14.300 And,

00:26:14.420 and yet here's CBC sitting around a table,

00:26:15.940 scheming about how can we bring in

00:26:18.920 this sort of divisive American woke culture

00:26:22.120 and,

00:26:22.540 and bring it up to Canada

00:26:23.740 to try to further divide a country.

00:26:25.160 Oh,

00:26:25.240 I have an idea.

00:26:26.040 Let's,

00:26:26.520 let's,

00:26:26.720 let's look into and try to tell a story

00:26:28.880 about how nobody likes Alberta

00:26:30.360 and nobody wants to move there.

00:26:31.580 It's like,

00:26:32.240 it's like they're designing news

00:26:33.620 to try to divide the country.

00:26:35.480 Well,

00:26:35.500 Henley said in her experience

00:26:37.900 as since I think it was 2013

00:26:39.660 before she resigned

00:26:40.820 as a producer

00:26:42.420 and,

00:26:42.840 and of TV and radio

00:26:44.440 and an occasional columnist

00:26:46.260 that she was aware

00:26:48.400 that in booking guests,

00:26:50.400 people had to basically fill out

00:26:53.200 the background of these people.

00:26:55.220 Who are you booking?

00:26:56.540 And the reason was

00:26:57.880 they wanted more

00:26:58.880 of certain types of people

00:27:00.220 and less of other types of people.

00:27:02.660 Now,

00:27:03.380 I agree that there is legitimate concern

00:27:06.900 that you want,

00:27:08.240 you want your commentary

00:27:11.480 to reflect the country,

00:27:13.200 right?

00:27:14.020 And so,

00:27:14.760 I'll give you an example.

00:27:16.960 If there's an issue about economy

00:27:18.400 and there's an Asian

00:27:19.940 or a black

00:27:20.540 or a Filipino

00:27:21.280 column,

00:27:22.020 you know,

00:27:22.500 economist who's,

00:27:23.420 who's expert on this,

00:27:24.560 well,

00:27:24.660 then of course you go and get them.

00:27:26.540 Of course,

00:27:27.260 you know,

00:27:27.460 like in other words,

00:27:28.320 you're not putting that person on

00:27:29.480 because of their color.

00:27:31.180 You're putting them on

00:27:32.260 because of their expertise.

00:27:34.440 And what may well have happened

00:27:35.920 in the past

00:27:36.620 is that,

00:27:37.440 is that people more

00:27:38.180 stories weren't put on

00:27:39.180 simply because

00:27:40.120 our audience won't like that.

00:27:41.680 You know,

00:27:41.960 that was wrong

00:27:43.620 and that needed to be corrected.

00:27:45.720 But when you're,

00:27:46.760 when you're sitting on your staff

00:27:48.720 so much

00:27:49.580 that they are filling out forms,

00:27:51.760 well,

00:27:52.040 okay,

00:27:52.300 this person was this

00:27:53.540 and this person was this

00:27:55.160 and I got,

00:27:55.880 I know I got to make more people

00:27:57.000 from this group

00:27:57.800 rather than that group.

00:27:59.420 And nobody

00:28:00.280 in the organization goes,

00:28:02.480 what is going on?

00:28:04.820 This,

00:28:04.980 this is creepy.

00:28:05.840 This feels wrong.

00:28:06.560 Like we're putting race

00:28:07.440 above everything else.

00:28:08.520 And I,

00:28:09.280 I know there's a whole section

00:28:10.520 on CBC's website

00:28:11.840 called Being Black in Canada.

00:28:13.340 And I,

00:28:13.880 I get the kind of concept

00:28:15.820 is like,

00:28:16.300 hey,

00:28:16.380 let's tell more stories

00:28:17.520 from people of diverse background.

00:28:18.860 But,

00:28:19.420 but when you have a whole

00:28:20.340 dedicated section

00:28:21.240 on your website

00:28:21.900 and I read it

00:28:22.900 and it's like,

00:28:23.320 they're really kind of

00:28:24.460 scraping the bottom of the barrel

00:28:25.680 just to come up with stories.

00:28:26.780 And like,

00:28:27.080 it's like sitting around,

00:28:28.600 how can we tell

00:28:29.660 a different story

00:28:30.280 of racism in Canada?

00:28:30.960 How can we retell the story

00:28:32.560 that we think Canada

00:28:33.540 is this horrible racist,

00:28:34.600 irredeemably racist country?

00:28:35.840 And just different iterations

00:28:37.620 of the same thing

00:28:38.240 over and over again.

00:28:38.980 And it's like,

00:28:39.880 they're pumping it out.

00:28:40.700 It's like propaganda,

00:28:41.520 Laurie.

00:28:41.960 It's,

00:28:42.120 it's to me,

00:28:43.380 just so wrong

00:28:44.260 that we're paying for it again.

00:28:46.600 I'll give you an example.

00:28:47.620 I did a story

00:28:48.400 about a huge,

00:28:49.980 it's,

00:28:50.560 I guess the primary award

00:28:51.780 that,

00:28:52.800 you know,

00:28:53.640 honoring black citizens.

00:28:55.140 And it's called

00:28:56.780 the Harry Jerome Awards.

00:28:58.500 And I've covered,

00:29:00.180 I'm astounded

00:29:01.120 by the,

00:29:01.920 by the quality

00:29:02.940 of these winners.

00:29:04.780 They would be winners

00:29:05.880 anywhere.

00:29:07.300 And,

00:29:07.860 you know,

00:29:08.260 like,

00:29:08.960 how often do we hear

00:29:09.580 about that?

00:29:10.140 How often do we hear

00:29:10.780 about actually,

00:29:11.540 no,

00:29:11.680 this community

00:29:12.180 is integrating

00:29:12.880 really well.

00:29:13.520 And here's things

00:29:14.280 they're,

00:29:14.640 they're,

00:29:15.140 they're doing

00:29:15.580 with other communities.

00:29:16.640 And here's Arab groups

00:29:17.760 and Jewish groups

00:29:18.400 working together,

00:29:19.120 you know,

00:29:20.240 to try and achieve things

00:29:21.220 or,

00:29:21.800 or working together

00:29:22.820 on,

00:29:23.320 on,

00:29:23.660 on charitable endeavors.

00:29:24.780 I worked for 20,

00:29:26.420 more than two decades

00:29:27.720 with a,

00:29:28.220 a black charity

00:29:29.520 that,

00:29:29.780 that was founded

00:29:30.320 by Jamaican Canadians

00:29:31.440 who gave,

00:29:33.200 who were able to gather

00:29:34.460 millions of dollars

00:29:35.540 in donations

00:29:36.120 in food,

00:29:37.700 in,

00:29:37.900 in,

00:29:38.500 in hospital supplies.

00:29:39.900 They sent them to Canada.

00:29:40.940 They sent them around

00:29:41.660 the world.

00:29:43.000 And,

00:29:43.520 and,

00:29:43.920 you know,

00:29:44.880 and just,

00:29:45.960 just,

00:29:46.280 they were everyday people.

00:29:48.540 And,

00:29:48.660 and like,

00:29:49.360 but of course,

00:29:49.820 when you do that story,

00:29:50.580 oh,

00:29:50.640 that's a happy story.

00:29:51.420 You do it once a year

00:29:52.060 and away we go.

00:29:52.660 Um,

00:29:53.860 uh,

00:29:54.640 like,

00:29:54.840 are we really

00:29:55.500 the most racist

00:29:56.760 country in the world?

00:29:58.280 Are we really

00:29:59.360 the equivalent

00:29:59.940 of apartheid South Africa?

00:30:01.960 Um,

00:30:02.580 uh,

00:30:03.180 I don't think rational

00:30:04.180 people believe that.

00:30:06.000 Um,

00:30:06.580 but,

00:30:07.220 but also what I noticed

00:30:08.460 when I,

00:30:09.220 when I broach

00:30:10.640 subjects like this,

00:30:11.600 people say to me,

00:30:12.740 I'm so glad you're saying it

00:30:13.700 because I'm afraid to say it.

00:30:14.900 And that's the insidious thing.

00:30:16.760 People are afraid

00:30:17.600 to say things

00:30:19.120 that are,

00:30:19.700 are,

00:30:20.220 you know,

00:30:21.300 they went after

00:30:22.120 Rex Murphy

00:30:22.760 because he said

00:30:23.360 Canada wasn't

00:30:24.020 a racist country.

00:30:25.860 Like,

00:30:26.400 like,

00:30:26.940 like,

00:30:28.140 okay,

00:30:28.640 you can,

00:30:28.980 you can disagree.

00:30:29.780 You can say,

00:30:30.340 well,

00:30:30.420 look,

00:30:30.600 that,

00:30:30.900 that minimizes

00:30:31.680 the problem.

00:30:32.760 You know,

00:30:33.100 understandable.

00:30:34.400 Or Wendy Mesley,

00:30:36.500 basically her career

00:30:37.800 destroyed

00:30:38.500 because in two story

00:30:40.340 meetings,

00:30:40.740 she used the N word

00:30:42.440 and she said the full

00:30:43.500 word because she was

00:30:45.220 angry about racism.

00:30:47.620 Now,

00:30:48.780 and,

00:30:49.040 and you're saying

00:30:50.040 the context doesn't

00:30:51.780 matter anymore.

00:30:53.080 Like,

00:30:53.540 okay,

00:30:53.720 maybe it was insensitive

00:30:54.660 and maybe,

00:30:55.580 you know,

00:30:55.900 if somebody objected,

00:30:57.060 she could apologize

00:30:57.820 and not do,

00:30:58.600 but really,

00:30:59.640 you crater a 40 year career.

00:31:02.200 Whatever you think of,

00:31:03.060 of,

00:31:03.480 of,

00:31:03.560 you know,

00:31:04.400 Wendy Mesley

00:31:04.920 and her work in the CBC,

00:31:06.120 she was a loyal soldier

00:31:07.320 to them.

00:31:08.000 And you crater her

00:31:09.280 based on that,

00:31:10.660 that you can't use

00:31:11.680 when you're angry

00:31:12.300 about racism,

00:31:13.140 the N word

00:31:13.600 in a story meeting,

00:31:14.500 right?

00:31:15.680 But don't say lame

00:31:16.860 and don't say

00:31:17.600 grandfathering in.

00:31:19.080 What is wrong

00:31:20.000 with you people?

00:31:21.180 What is wrong

00:31:21.720 with your management?

00:31:23.480 Well,

00:31:24.000 there's just,

00:31:24.620 there's just so much,

00:31:26.040 there is so much

00:31:26.680 wrong with it.

00:31:27.380 And,

00:31:27.400 and right,

00:31:28.340 like the,

00:31:28.680 the idea with

00:31:29.980 Rex Murphy

00:31:30.660 is column,

00:31:32.500 it wasn't just saying

00:31:33.440 Canada's not a racist country.

00:31:34.320 It says that we're not

00:31:34.920 a country defined

00:31:35.740 by racism.

00:31:36.460 When you think of Canada,

00:31:37.340 you don't,

00:31:37.580 of course there's racist people.

00:31:38.940 There's racist people

00:31:39.620 all over the planet

00:31:40.700 of every color.

00:31:42.060 And you use racist country

00:31:43.140 when you're saying

00:31:43.720 a specific thing.

00:31:45.020 Yeah,

00:31:45.140 when you say Canada.

00:31:45.720 it's like you're,

00:31:46.040 you're defined by it.

00:31:47.420 Yeah,

00:31:47.620 exactly.

00:31:48.880 But,

00:31:49.220 but I mean,

00:31:49.680 it's the same thing.

00:31:50.500 I mean,

00:31:50.600 we could go on forever

00:31:51.440 about this,

00:31:52.120 but the Ontario Divisional Court

00:31:54.440 just ruled that you can't

00:31:55.840 ask math teachers

00:31:56.860 to pass a basic

00:31:57.880 grade nine math exam

00:31:58.920 because it's racist.

00:31:59.720 Not because the law

00:32:01.040 itself is racist

00:32:01.860 or the intent

00:32:02.500 of the law is racist,

00:32:03.320 but because the impact

00:32:05.240 is,

00:32:06.000 has,

00:32:06.360 is racially

00:32:07.240 divided

00:32:08.900 or whatever.

00:32:09.640 So it's like every,

00:32:10.560 they,

00:32:10.780 they,

00:32:11.020 they find racism

00:32:11.940 in,

00:32:12.680 in just every mundane thing.

00:32:14.100 And I think it's,

00:32:14.800 it's really having a bad

00:32:16.520 impact on our society.

00:32:17.500 It's really tearing us apart

00:32:18.400 at a time when our prime

00:32:19.880 minister is also doing

00:32:20.860 everything he can to

00:32:21.740 vilify people that he

00:32:23.120 disagrees with.

00:32:23.860 So Laurie,

00:32:25.120 I mean,

00:32:25.420 it's,

00:32:25.600 it's,

00:32:25.840 it's a tough time in Canada

00:32:26.940 right now,

00:32:27.300 but we really appreciate you

00:32:28.300 coming on the show

00:32:28.920 and helping us make sense of it.

00:32:30.900 Thank you so much for joining us.

00:32:32.280 Thank you for your time.

00:32:33.580 Thank you for having me.

00:32:35.540 All right.

00:32:36.000 Thank you so much for tuning in.

00:32:37.220 I'm Candice Malcolm

00:32:37.800 and this is the Candice Malcolm Show.

The Candice Malcolm Show - January 10, 2022

Is Justin Trudeau losing his grip on reality？

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