Liberals push SCARY new censorship laws
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Summary
Chris Sims, Alberta Director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, joins me to talk about the dangers of government-funded journalism in Canada, and how it threatens to erode our ability to freely express ourselves in a free and fair environment.
Transcript
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Welcome to the Candace Malcolm Show here on Juneau. My name is Chris Sims. I'm the Alberta
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Director for the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. Thank you so much for joining us today. We've got
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a lot to talk about on this show, and we're thankful that we can still do that, that we can
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still talk about things. Because right now, our ability to express ourselves freely in Canada
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is on a slippery slope, and it's declining. Here's why. Remember back in shop class, or if you've
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got a garage and you've got some tools in it, you know those table vices where you can put stuff
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between them and crank it up, you know, making it loose or making it tight, and it's got two sides
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coming together? Well, here in Canada, we have two sides of censorship, which are tightening upon
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people. One side of it is the fact that the government is handing hundreds of millions of
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dollars to media outside of the CBC. So yes, we know that the state broadcaster already takes well
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over a billion dollars from taxpayers each year, and that the current liberal government is planning on
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upping their stipend, thanks to the taxpayer, and giving the CBC more power. That's a given.
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But what isn't understood by many is that much of the mainstream media is now also on government
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payroll. There is a motley crew of really weird forms of subsidy, direct payment, tax credits out the
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wazoo, and there's even a panel, a government panel, that decides what is a real journalism outfit
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and worthy of government money. As a long-time journalist and someone who values free expression,
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and I need to for my job at the Taxpayers Federation, this is all deeply disturbing. Because bluntly,
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journalists cannot be paid by the government. Government-funded journalism should be a
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contradiction in terms, and it is. The moment a journalist is on government payroll, that's
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propaganda. The sad thing here is that even if there's a journalist, and I've met many, who's still
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working like the dickens to be as balanced as possible and as careful responsible as possible with
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his or her reporting, the very fact that their paycheck depends in some way, shape, or form on the
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government compromises them, no matter what they do or how hard they work. As in ethics, okay, where
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there's a perception of corruption, same goes for journalism. Where there's a perception of a conflict
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of interest with the government, trust falls down. And this is exactly what we're seeing with journalism
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in Canada. Now, a very healthy majority of Canadians believe that journalists are deliberately trying
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to mislead them with statements they know to be false. That is very alarming, because we need to be
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able to trust the information that we're being given. Further to this point on the censorship vice.
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So again, one side of it, we've got government dumping millions of dollars into journalism in Canada.
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That was perfectly illustrated just before the election, where you saw, I think it was a national
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post or a post media journalist saying something about the government, like criticizing it mildly and
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pointing out a discrepancy. And a member of parliament of the government basically saying, pipe down, and
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this is why we give you a subsidy. Perfectly proving the point of people who are concerned about
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government funding journalism in Canada. To the reporter's credit, she shot back pretty good.
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And there's also the scene that happened during the last election. We had a situation where
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candidate A is saying, hey, CBC reporter standing there on the sidewalk scrumming me,
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I'm going to give your employer more money. And candidate B saying, hey, CBC reporter standing there on the
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sidewalk scrumming me, I'm going to defund your employer. How is that supposed to be reported on straight?
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How is that not an obvious, almost embarrassing level of a conflict of interest and an affront to a free press?
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Because the term free press might conjure up images of some old timey newspaper stand in, you know, New York City
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somewhere, where a paper boy is, you know, handing out free newspapers. That is not what a free press is.
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That wouldn't be super important. A free press is free from government. And we do not have that in Canada
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at all right now. The other side of the censorship vice is the censorship itself or the potential of it.
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And that is through legislation laws that are passed by our legislators in Ottawa. Bill C-11 has already
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been passed by the Trudeau government previously. It's now working its way through the CRTC. And you
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need to stay on top of that because it's eventually going to start trickling down and affecting what kind
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of podcasts you can see and hear and share online. It's going to eventually alter the visibility of what
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you're even seeing on YouTube, for example, here in Canada. We're already seeing pressure coming from
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the government in that direction. And the reason why this is really important, of course, is because
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if you want to express yourself against the government, for example, the Canadian Taxpayers
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Federation, we just finished handing out golden pig statues to government and bureaucrats who waste your
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money. We criticize the government all the time for jacking up your taxes and wasting your money.
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If that ability of speech is eroded, then your rights are being eroded. So Bill C-11 has already
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passed into law. Now currently on the table is something called the Online Harms Act. And this
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is a doozy. So right off the top, there's a big portion of this bill that any decent person would be
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fine with strengthening. So that's where, you know, monsters who are targeting children online are going to
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jail for longer or there's more restrictions on them. Like everybody accepts that that is fine to do.
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Unfortunately, there's a strange Trojan horse element of this proposed legislation. And that is
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the ability for anonymous people to make complaints about your expression online that makes them
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uncomfortable or feel unsafe. Those are all such variable terms, right? Define what you mean by
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uncomfortable, right? Because a lot of our discourse can get uncomfortable in politics. And here's the
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kicker. Folks under this legislation could be fined for it. Or if they don't take it down, they could even be
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put on house arrest, some of the language in this law. Now this gets pretty extreme. And people start
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imagining things like what's happening over in the UK. If we are going to be able to speak truth to power and hold
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government to account, we're going to have to be able to speak freely and express ourselves freely.
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So this is what's at play right now. And that's why it's really important to speak with Peter Menzies
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about this. What does he have to say about it? Let's find out. Joining me now is Peter Menzies. Mr. Menzies
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is a fellow at the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, past editor of the Calgary Herald, and now a writer and
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founder of the rewrite that is on Substack. I would encourage anybody who values serious journalism
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to go subscribe to it. I just did. And I'm very happy with my decision. I wanted to get into a few
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things with you. I often describe in my talks about censorship in Canada, as we're facing two sides of
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a vice, similar to what you would see in a metal shop. On one side, we have the fact that much of the
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mainstream media is now unfortunately on a form of government payroll, either through direct payment
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or through massive amounts of subsidy. On the other side are laws, things like Bill C-11, which has
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already passed, and the looming Online Harms Act. I just wanted to get your bird's eye view first.
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As a long-time journalist who writes about this quite clearly, where would you rate our state of
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journalism and free expression in Canada? Are we at a C? Are we at a B-plus? Where are we at?
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Probably the C range. I think that the real issue has been this sort of decline in the willingness to
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stand up for freedom of speech at all costs. There's been, I mean, we're just emerging right now
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kind of from a cancel culture era. And what shocked me about it was that instead of media standing up
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for people's right to speak and that sort of stuff. Now, I mean, there's always social consequences for
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whatever language you choose to use. I mean, you're free to use it, but you're not free to use it
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without consequences. But the consequences during this cancel culture frenzy that went on for a few
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years were very severe, career destroying and that sort of stuff for the slightest little miscue.
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Media didn't fight that. They went along with it. And that's really, I thought, sent a bad sort of
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example for where we might be going when you see that media, being the ones who depend the most upon
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freedom of speech. We're willing to get pretty mushy about it. So right now we're left with librarians
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who are the only ones who are still really sticking up for free speech. That's so C, I maybe might even
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slide it to a D, but I just want to leave room for next year's grade.
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Oh, great point. We just finished releasing a report card on finance ministers. So I understand
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needing to leave room for the next year's grade. To your point, just on purely, not with taxpayers'
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money going to it, just on the pure free expression element. So the Taxpayers Federation, for example,
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we often will do stunts that are annoying to people and politicians, even insulting in some ways. We
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just finished handing out golden pig statues to politicians and bureaucrats who waste money. So
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free expression from a taxpayer's perspective is essential to our work. If we can't criticize the
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government, if we can't express ourselves freely, we're in some trouble here as a country. And so
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this is one of the reasons why the CTF took a stand against things like C-11. To your point,
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though, on the pure journalism element, because this is where I spent most of my adult life,
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I agree. And for the longest time, it was journalists, at least I found, that always
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defended free expression, that defended free speech. We've seen overseas, you know, what happened
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with Charlie Hebdo, for goodness sake. You know, one of my most, you know, closest friends in journalism
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still has, you know, a magazine cover from that magazine in France. And so I'm wondering where you
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think this changed? Where, where did we take a turn to where what you were kind of made me think
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of referencing? I'm going to be careful here because I don't want to upset people. A few years ago in the
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before times, before lockdown, there was a huge cancel culture push that swept through media in Canada,
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especially on what was then Twitter. And all that had happened was a couple of more high profile
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journalists had kind of joked about the fact that now authors aren't allowed to write from a
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perspective that they are not. Meaning, Jack London couldn't write from the perspective of a wolf,
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for example, anymore. Or a woman writer couldn't write from the perspective of a man anymore,
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because that was somehow appropriation. And so a lot of fiction writers were having a problem with this,
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saying this is a little bit silly. And a couple of journalists had chimed in,
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basically saying, yeah, this is a little bit silly. And all hell broke loose in their own
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workplaces. They were attacked by their own employers and had their jobs threatened.
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And I think I think we reached peak crazy cancel culture at that point. And it was just a few years
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before the lockdowns. Yeah, it was about the mid 20 teens. I think it started emerging around then,
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but it kind of coincides roughly with Justin Trudeau's election. Yeah. And I think his approach
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to the to world affairs and domestic affairs seemed to give people permission to go a little farther
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than they had been going. I mean, cultural appropriation, there were all kinds of, oh,
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what do you call them? Social misdeeds that people could people could commit. But but it was,
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it's one thing to sort of criticize people for it. But it was the full consequences of it. I mean,
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what was that? The, the kids from the school in Kentucky in the States, who had the, I can't
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remember their name right now. But, but that kind of went viral. And even though, I mean, the main kid
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in that, I think probably doesn't have to work a day in his life with the settlements he got from the,
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from the lawsuits he filed, but people were constantly trying to accuse each other. And it was very,
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you know, Orwellian, in a sense, that word gets overused, but kind of Stalinist, where people are
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even goes back to the French Revolution, when, you know, j'accuse, right? And people were,
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there was sort of a terror going on. Ben Mulroney can probably speak to that. Yes, he can.
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Quite a bit too. And I don't know exactly where it came from, other than there'd been this sort of
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long march through the institutions that had been going on for about the previous 20, 25 years.
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So young people were coming out of schools with this attitude, young people were graduating from
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university, not, not all of them, I got to be careful not to be too sweeping with this attitude. And
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like I said, the thing that disturbed me the most about media was that it didn't fight it. Yes.
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Right. I mean, the National Post initially threw Rex Murphy under the bus
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for, for saying, and if you go online, you can find that column, when he said he didn't think Canada
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was an institutionally racist country, right? When he, it was like you, it even, he didn't just,
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it wasn't like you just had, you, you weren't able to speak. You were compelled to speak only one
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thing, right? You had to, you had to be in agreement. And the Post initially, you know,
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threw Murphy under the bus, the, the, the note is still on that column online, but then they found,
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they regained their balance, right? Which was a good sign there. And that, that gave me a little
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bit of hope when I started to see that. And some of them you can see are slightly shifting back,
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but it was scary that they fell for it in the first place. Because particularly if they're going
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to get subsidized for being the defenders of democracy, you better frigging defend it.
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Yeah. So let's take off from there. So I think you've really set the scene well
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of this just didn't come out of nowhere. All of a sudden, this was already kind of growing and
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bubbling before the money started flowing from government. Um, and I would also just to throw
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in, sorry for the inside baseball. Um, but for those of us who've worked in journalism,
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it wasn't just that it was a combination of that, of course, this cancel culture frenzy that was
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sweeping, but also there's just so few journalists anymore compared to what it was 20 years ago.
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There's just a lack of bodies. You know, there used to be so many journalists. I've told this story
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many times that when I graduated J school from BCIT back in the nineties, there were two full-time
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salaried paid reporters, like paying your mortgage level paid, who worked at the Vancouver Sun
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only on softwood lumber. That's how much journalism we had. So we had city hall reporters. We had,
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uh, we had consumer affairs reporters. We had court reporters who went to court every day
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just to go find a story. And so there's so few of them now, and they're younger and younger and
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younger and coming out of these universities with journalism degrees without a lot of experience.
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So it kind of created this perfect storm for the government to back up the money truck and say,
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okay, we're going to save you. And now a lot of them, unfortunately, either one way or the other
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are dependent upon government funding, meaning they're getting paid by the government. Um,
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where do you see this going? Do you see more people cluing into the fact that a lot of mainstream
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media are getting paid by the government and rejecting them because of it? Or is it just a
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by-product? Oh, it's hard to say because the mainstream media doesn't talk about it very much,
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do they? They sure don't. No. So it's kind of like their dirty little secret. So, um,
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which means that to me that they're embarrassed by it. Um, to be fair, it wasn't the government that
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went to them that said, do you want some money? They went to the government and said, give us some
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money. We're the defenders of democracy, blah, blah, blah, which is a lot of nonsense as far as I'm
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concerned. Um, just because the Toronto Star or the National Post goes belly up, that doesn't mean
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that journalism dies. It will find a way, right? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's mere, those are merely
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the vehicles that carry journalism. There are lots of other ways to deliver journalism. And
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the 21st century is discovering that there are a lot, like you mentioned, a rewrite. I can read,
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I can go on Substack and read all kinds of good commentary, um, from experts in the fields, not
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journalism's, you know, calm us trying to find expertise in them. I mean, God bless them for
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that, but I can go straight to the horse's mouth there, for instance. So there's all kinds of
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different examples of that, but they went to the government. Now, what gets me about that when you're
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talking about the decline of journalism, there was a time not that long ago. And I'm, I'm kind of at
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that age, right? I don't like saying back in the day or there was a time, but I kind of have to do it.
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I mean, that's, that's what I can offer now. When no publisher, um, out of their own sense of
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self-respect would ever link themselves to government with money, right? I mean, after the
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Kent commission in the 1980s, the government proposed a whole bunch of things. The industry
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stood up on its hind legs, snarled and said, get the away Satan, right? Stay away. We would never,
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we would never, um, compromise their independence like that, but just like that.
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They all did this time. So I'm not going to accuse them of pay for play because there's plenty of
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evidence of some journalists still doing some good work. The fact of the matter is though,
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you're going to have a tough time convincing the public of that. And that's, that's the core reason
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for it. Once you build an association or a codependence like that, you're going to lose
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public trust. And they're just not going to believe you. And there's some other practices
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like the use of unnamed sources and that sort of stuff, which is very liberally applied these days,
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which have declined. So there's been definitely been a decline in the ethics, um, and the application
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of what, of what were the ethics of, uh, journalism organizations in the past. So going along with
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the, that trend you're concerned about, censoring, censorship, um, I'm not sure that we can trust them
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to defend our right to freedom of speech anymore.
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And journalism, trust in journalism is plummeting. Uh, I read a recent, it was an Edelman survey on
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trust. It was from a couple of years ago and trust in journal. I think it was something like
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50, high 50%, close to 60% of Canadians believe that journalists are deliberately saying things
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they know not to be true in order to mislead people. This isn't flubbing something or getting
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a date wrong or accidentally mispronouncing somebody's name, which all journalists do.
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Um, it isn't a typo. This is deliberately trying to tell people things they know not to be true.
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Um, and once you erode trust, that's what journalists bank on. You need your audience to be able to trust
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your work and what you're saying, because otherwise, what are you doing there? And the, the moment that
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you are on some form of government payroll, that shows again, that is a direct conflict of interest.
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Okay. I'll put it this way. It wouldn't matter if the dearly departed Rex Murphy, okay. We're
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delivering the news and Don Cherry, we're delivering the sports. If they're on direct government payroll,
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that's the problem. It's the perception of bias that destroys trust because it's a conflict of
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interest. No matter how much they try to guard against it, it's an inherent conflict of interest,
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very similar to ethics. The perception of corruption is what gets you. And so this is where, again,
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I plead with every journalist who's in the field right now, who can actually have some influence
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over their employers, get away from government funding, do it however you have to, but get away
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from being funded by the state. Speaking of the state, I wanted to quickly touch on the other side of
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the vice grip. And that is laws about free expression. Now, Bill C11 has already been put
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through the machine. It's working its way through. I sometimes get updates, you know, from the CRTC,
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which you were also a member of, I will point out. Again, folks, this is why you need to go subscribe
00:22:26.100
to his sub stack called the rewrite because he's got a lifetime of experience in this. When it comes to
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the online harms act though, this is the current new law that is still in play. Now for folks who forget
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what it was, it's kind of this double-headed law. One of them was what any normal person would want
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to do, was to protect young people online from being disgusting imagery being shared, all that
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stuff. Any reasonable person would say, sure, tighten all of those laws. But there's an element to it
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about so-called hate speech or online expression of harm or intent that was really alarming a lot of
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people who value free expression because it was punishing people for, think, tweets, right? Going
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back and forth in time. I saw that it sounds like the minister responsible for this is going to be
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Fraser going forward. Where do you see the current online harms act going? Do you think they're going
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to split the bill and they're going to get rid of the online censorship element?
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I don't think they will because, well, it depends. I guess it's too early to say. The last government,
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Trudeau's government, was very susceptible to lobbyists. And the online harms act, and it's had
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two or three different efforts to get through, was pushed for, some of the groups pushing for it a lot
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were religious minority groups, Muslims and Jewish groups as well, who felt they were being subjected
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to prejudicial statements online and wanted that to stop and that sort of thing. There are ways,
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I think, to address those issues, civil actions and that sort of stuff if you behave. But what gets
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really tricky, as you say, is when you get into this area of hate speech. So do you want to end up
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where, and this is where I'm concerned about the Carney's sort of connection, you know,
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admiration for things that are British, is that the rules in England right now, you can get arrested
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or you can certainly get visited by the police if you say something that makes somebody feel
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uncomfortable online, that they interpret it as racist or that. It doesn't even have to be overtly
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racist. But I am hopeful that they will be practical and they will do things like deepfakes,
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for instance, you know, turning women into online porn stars like that, that all they have to do is amend
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section 162 of the criminal code, which is all about sharing of intimate images without permission
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information to include deepfakes there. Done, right? If you want to protect kids from access to
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online porn, there are ways you can go about that and work with the online industry on because
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coordinated efforts. I remember this from my CRTC years between ISPs, internet service providers,
00:25:42.020
the police and others, like when it came to child pornography, for keeping a watch for it,
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most of it, most of that crap gets hidden below, you know, in the dark web. But they find it and they,
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where they find it, they seek it out and destroy it sort of thing. So if you're talking about main,
00:26:01.120
I guess what we would call mainstream porn, this day and age, finding a way to protect children from
00:26:08.260
that, or at least empowering parents to protect children from it with, I mean, my preferred solution
00:26:16.140
is actually having a sort of block that you can apply at home to your internet in terms, in terms of
00:26:22.980
that, so that nobody under that age can even access it, let alone get into it. But those are all going
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to be contentious issues, which I think the government, I think it may address it, they may
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decide, and a practical decision might be to just clean it up through amendments, as I said, and move on
00:26:44.900
with their bigger economic agenda. That's where I'm leaning, based on the fact they've now shifted it
00:26:51.740
initially, this was under heritage, which was super weird. And now they've shifted it over to justice,
00:26:57.480
which is an indicator that they're getting more serious about it. And I know there's been a lot of
00:27:01.900
advocacy, both from what I would describe as left wing defenders of free expression. And again, for the
00:27:07.840
obvious stuff, not, you know, against protecting children, any decent person wants to do that. So there was a
00:27:12.740
big push to split the bill, to get rid of the online censorship element and keep, you know, tightening
00:27:18.000
restrictions on people who seek to harm others, which is already illegal, by the way. Sharing images
00:27:25.460
of child sexual abuse is already illegal. Terror, you know, promoting terrorism online, all of these
00:27:31.260
things are already in the criminal code. To your point, all they would need to do is just amend them
00:27:36.860
that are already in the criminal code. And I know, for example, the Canadian Constitution Foundation
00:27:41.660
was speaking very vigorously against this. So I think because it's coming from kind of a bipartisan
00:27:46.980
grassroots element from both so-called left and right, I think there's a strong chance they will
00:27:52.660
drop that element. So to your point, they can roll on forward. We're out of time, sir. Is there
00:27:57.300
anything else you would like to mention? Or they could take a look at Michelle Rempel's bill that I
00:28:01.780
think she has tabled again. Okay. She came up with an alternative, which addressed some of the
00:28:08.000
concerns. And it's not perfect, but who knows, maybe they can work with that.
00:28:14.980
They might. And it is still technically a minority. And governments have absorbed opposition,
00:28:21.440
you know, proposed ideas into their own legislation before. So let's hope that wiser heads prevail.
00:28:28.660
Thank you very much for your time today, sir. Folks, head on over to the rewrite on Substack.
00:28:33.280
Subscribe to it because, of course, Mr. Menzies keeps up to date with the latest on censorship and
00:28:39.680
Thank you so much. Folks, if you want more original journalism that is independent and
00:28:46.220
thoughtful and hard-hitting, be sure to head on over to JunoNews.com and subscribe there. Thank
00:28:52.700
you so much for watching. Candace is back tomorrow.
00:28:55.200
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