The Candice Malcolm Show - March 29, 2022


Should the Conservatives embrace populism？

Topics
elite gatekeepers conservatives and suburban voters NDP survival and conservatism McNaughton's reforms gig work
Hosted by
Candice Malcolm
Mentioned
Erin O'Toole Justin Trudeau Pierre Poilievre Stephen Harper Andrew Scheer Brexit Jagmeet Singh McNaughton Trump Ben Woodfinden Billy Bishop Westminster Poliette Johnson
Introducing a new True North Contributor： Samuel Sey Trudeau doubles down on his failed climate schemes

Episode Stats


Length

45 minutes

Words per minute

209.91

Word count

9,446

Sentence count

359

Harmful content

Hate speech

4

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

The Conservative Party of Canada is at a crossroads. Will the party embrace populism and capitalize on the broad frustrations that many Canadians have with the Trudeau government, or will they go down the safe establishment path of presenting themselves as a more disciplined and moderate version of the Liberal party of Canada?

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 The Conservative Party of Canada is at a crossroads. Will the party embrace populism and capitalize on the broad frustrations that many Canadians have with the Trudeau government, or will they go down the safe establishment path and formula of presenting themselves as a more disciplined and more moderate version of the Liberal Party of Canada?
00:00:17.700 I'm Candice Malcolm, and this is The Candice Malcolm Show.
00:00:30.000 Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. So there's a couple of things that we know, and that is that Canadians are feeling the effects of a big government led by the Liberal Party and Justin Trudeau.
00:00:41.200 They always think that they know best. This style of government includes the astronomical debt that Trudeau has raked up, a bureaucratic busybodies constantly getting in the way of jobs and growth, a growing nanny state where the government restricts our rights and freedoms at every turn.
00:00:55.980 And all the while, it seems like Justin Trudeau is never really held accountable. He always finds a way to get away and give himself more power, whether it's through backroom deals like the one we saw with Jagmeet Singh, or just utilizing the various tools of government to get away with his various scandals.
00:01:11.420 So many Canadians are left wondering, what is the alternative? Could there be an opportunity here for the Conservative Party of Canada?
00:01:19.260 Do Conservatives embrace populism, or do they look down their noses at it like so many in the establishment class do?
00:01:25.660 Well, my guest today on The Candice Malcolm Show is Ben Woodfindan. Ben is a writer and contributor to the National Post and to Hub.
00:01:33.980 The Hub, his recent article, he argues that it's time for the Conservatives to embrace populism.
00:01:39.100 Ben is also working on a PhD over at McGill University. And it is great to have you on the program, Ben. Thank you so much for joining us.
00:01:46.460 Good to be with you.
00:01:48.080 So I've never had you on the show before, but I have been reading and enjoying your work in various publications for a long time.
00:01:55.380 So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got involved in sort of public policy and writing in various newspapers?
00:02:02.980 Sure. So yeah, so as you said, so I'm finishing a PhD right now at McGill. Doing a PhD is kind of, I won't bore your listeners with the details, but basically on executive power in the Westminster system is a really boring version of it.
00:02:18.120 So I do that, you know, that's kind of like my day job, so to speak. But I do a fair bit of, I never really know what to describe myself as exactly. I do some writing, commentary on the side.
00:02:28.140 I write pretty regularly placed like the National Post. And what's, what's, people always assume I kind of have a kind of a hyper-partisan background. And I really don't. I've actually never fully worked for the Conservative Party or anything like that.
00:02:42.480 I kind of see my role in, in the kind of the movement more broadly in that kind of more small C sense. You know, I don't hide my political leanings. You know, people in the academic world certainly are aware of my political leanings, unfortunately, sometimes. But I, yeah, I kind of see myself as a kind of, a kind of small C voice that tries to kind of, you know, offer nudges and prompts to kind of the way the part on directions I think the party should take.
00:03:08.580 You know, I don't really, I don't really know if there's a kind of, I would just call myself a conservative. I don't know if there's a kind of type of conservative I would necessarily kind of frame myself as.
00:03:20.400 I do, I do kind of, you know, some of the, some of the kind of broader shifts we've seen in the last couple of years, you know, not just in Canada, but, you know, in the US and the UK towards a kind of more, what I like to call kind of like a blue collar conservatism.
00:03:33.200 I think I'm very kind of sympathetic towards that. And I kind of think that's, I think that's happening, whether people like it or not, that's the direction it's going anyway.
00:03:42.560 But I also think that's, it's a good thing that we're going in that direction and kind of some of the work conservatives need to be doing over the next few years is kind of figuring out how to kind of, how to put meat, meat on those bones and how to kind of really flesh and kind of good, good policy ideas and kind of a good, a good substantive agenda around that kind of shift as well.
00:04:01.020 Well, it's interesting to hear you talk about the need to sort of embrace working class values and populism. I don't really expect that talking to an academic from McGill University.
00:04:12.220 So I do wonder what, what brought you towards conservatism? You know, it's sort of rare, like you mentioned, in academia, and in, in just sort of, you know, elite establishments, like the one that you work at. So I'm just curious as to, like, you were reluctant to say what kind of conservative you are, but what brought you to this tradition of conservatism?
00:04:36.140 Good question. You know, I was, I was a, so I, so I grew up, I was born in the UK, and I grew up in the UK, and we moved, my family moved to Canada when I was about 15. It's a, moving, you know, I, moving, moving countries when you're 15 is, it's not an easy time necessarily to move.
00:04:52.920 So I had a kind of strange high school experience when I was here. And I basically, you know, I wasn't, I wouldn't have called myself kind of, I wasn't interested in politics or anything like that when I was young.
00:05:02.780 So, you know, you know, I basically just kind of had more time on my hands and doing a bit more reading, a bit more thinking when I was, when we moved here. And I just kind of, I kind of, of course, I would say this, you know, as I'm doing a PhD, I basically just kind of read my way into it.
00:05:15.960 So, you know, I did, I did the kind of very, the very unique, maybe strange thing of, I became, I grew up in a fairly non-religious family, and I, I decided, I became a Catholic, I converted when I was about, I was about 21, and I was an undergrad.
00:05:31.000 So there was definitely, and some of that was definitely, you know, well, it wasn't a political move, but it was definitely broad, you know, I'm fairly traditionalist in many ways.
00:05:39.840 And so there's definitely, you know, there's definitely something going on there. In terms of my kind of, you know, political evolution, I think, so like I said, I grew up in the UK.
00:05:48.700 And I think prior to that, my politics were kind of quite, I was, you know, I was always kind of conservative, but I was never, I was never super comfortable with maybe some of the more, like, free market-y kind of conservatism.
00:06:02.600 But I kind of just went, you know, I kind of, I didn't really think about there being other ways to think about conservatism until Brexit.
00:06:10.920 And Brexit really kind of changed, but really opened my eyes to certain things.
00:06:16.380 So the kinds of, you know, I come from a fairly working class background in the UK.
00:06:20.100 So, so much of the kind of, the discourse, the kind of discussion around Brexit that, you know, before and then after, after the referendum, certain things really changed, some things really changed for me and opened my eyes.
00:06:35.920 And the kind of, I guess if there's one kind of broad, broad thing that I changed my mind on that really does shape my politics now, it's the kind of the way that, the way that, you know, the traditional defenders of the working class, people on the left, the way that they now think about politics and the way that they now think about defending the interest of working class people.
00:06:57.460 It's just, just totally divorced from the real lives of these people.
00:07:03.220 You know, I, I sometimes get fairly or unfairly, I think fairly kind of labeled as kind of a pro-union conservative.
00:07:11.560 And I always like to clarify with people that I'm very pro kind of labor unions and actual like trade unions, but I'm not particularly pro public sector unions, which are a totally different animal, just in terms of the incentives that motivate them.
00:07:25.160 The kinds of people that are actually members of, you know, they're, if you're in a, you know, a public sector union, you're basically a member of like the professional class, right?
00:07:34.700 And so I think like, like the Labour Party in the UK now, it's still, you know, a union party, but it's dominated by like public sector unions.
00:07:42.300 So the kind of labor politics that they're into now is very much that kind of like professional managerial kind of urban London-based kind of politics.
00:07:52.140 And also, you know, while all these kind of bigger shifts were going on around Brexit and stuff like that, it just kind of, so many of these doors, so many new things just kind of became clear to me that, I don't want to say that I kind of found my own consciousness.
00:08:06.200 That's a, I really like that kind of language, but I think kind of over these last couple of years, I've kind of come into my own kind of sense of, you know, where I'm from, how it fits into the world.
00:08:15.200 And, you know, so when I say I'm sympathetic, it's kind of like blue collar conservative shifts, you know, as partially kind of like self-motivated, that's kind of worldly speaking, how I kind of see my background and see where I'm from.
00:08:27.680 So, yeah, and, you know, there's a, some of this is economic stuff.
00:08:31.880 Some of this obviously overlaps with like deeper kind of cultural questions, questions about respect and dignity for people.
00:08:37.780 But yeah, I think, so I, yeah, it's a, it's a long way of kind of explaining how I got here.
00:08:43.960 But if there was a single kind of catalyst for my kind of shift in politics, it was probably Brexit and what happened in the years following that.
00:08:52.100 It's so interesting.
00:08:53.220 I could, I could do a whole show and I probably should one day on the number of conservatives that I know have, who have converted to Catholicism just personally, either from, from like an atheist background or, you know, maybe just like a Anglican Christian sort of background.
00:09:07.040 Where they, they sort of feel the need to go towards something even more traditional and more steeped in the, in the actual teachings of the Bible and not just sort of the latest politics around them all.
00:09:18.440 But we'll save that for another day.
00:09:20.020 It's interesting that you mentioned the distinction between public sector unions and private sector unions, because I feel like this is a conflict for the NDP.
00:09:28.620 I mean, we saw the big merger or the agreement or the coalition, the pact between Trudeau and NDP leader Jagmeet Singh.
00:09:36.120 And, you know, right in their priorities, it talked about unions.
00:09:41.540 But you could tell that they were talking about public sector unions because they're talking about sick days and perks.
00:09:46.880 Like it wasn't, it wasn't so much we're going to fight for the interests of the working man.
00:09:50.760 It was more like we're going to fight for the entitlements of the government class and the managerial class.
00:09:56.040 And it's a good segue because I know you wrote this great essay over in The Hub where you talked about how Pierre Polyev or whoever is going to lead the next conservative party, there's a sort of winning strategy baked into a speech that Pierre Polyev gave about the elite gatekeepers.
00:10:13.900 And so I'm hoping you can sort of expand on that a little bit.
00:10:17.740 What do you mean by elite gatekeepers or what did Pierre Polyev mean by them?
00:10:21.200 And how is this a winning strategy for conservatives?
00:10:24.540 Sure. So, yes, when I read that essay, I had in mind.
00:10:27.260 So Polyev gave a speech on the floor of the House of Commons sometime.
00:10:32.020 I think I think it was last spring.
00:10:33.200 I have to go look.
00:10:34.040 But he called the speech the gatekeepers and, you know, Polyev has this kind of, he has a sort of kind of, he has a very distinct kind of style, right?
00:10:43.160 He's kind of mastered his own, his own approach.
00:10:45.080 And it was a very kind of Polyev-ish speech where he, he went after basically, you know, he starts going after kind of NIMBYs that basically blocked an expansion of Billy Bishop to the airport in town of Toronto.
00:10:58.020 And he basically uses it to show basically how kind of all sorts of different, these elite gatekeepers are basically kind of, you know, holding back ordinary Canadians.
00:11:10.960 And it's not, you know, it's a perfect, it's a very kind of, in many ways, it's a very kind of, it's not a very dangerous or like dark speech.
00:11:20.180 I think like, you know, everyone, some people, you know, they hear the word populism, they think, you know, this kind of evil, scary, you know, demonizing rhetoric.
00:11:28.900 But the kind of populism he was kind of channeling there, I think is a very kind of healthy, healthy populism.
00:11:34.720 And his argument, you know, he's making essentially kind of an economic argument, right?
00:11:37.920 You have these ordinary Canadians who are being held back by these various kind of bureaucratic, not always bureaucratic, but, you know, whether it's kind of big corporate interests or big government interests,
00:11:48.960 or like, well, the wedding of the two, which happens so often.
00:11:52.400 It's how these kinds of people are, you know, preventing, he looks at things like, like housing is the most obvious one.
00:11:59.400 And I think, and so my arguments in the piece, but there's some real potential for this kind of message for him to build a kind of, for him to kind of simultaneously kind of be, be authentically himself.
00:12:09.520 He doesn't have to pretend to be something he isn't, which, you know, I think that was the, as I said in the essay, that if there was one lesson to take from, from Aaron O'Toole's leadership,
00:12:18.440 it's that you can't run, you know, you, the, you can, you can try that pivot, you know, that run is one thing for leader and then try and pivot towards something else.
00:12:27.940 It's unlikely to work, right?
00:12:29.480 Because you kind of stuck, caught between a rock and a hard place once you do.
00:12:33.960 O'Toole did this, O'Toole, O'Toole was still kind of, you know, during the election was still attacked as being kind of like far right, which is, you know, farcical to think about.
00:12:42.960 But he simultaneously, some of those attacks would stick precisely because, you know, there were clips of him that they could use to try and, that the liberals could use to try and make him out to be one thing.
00:12:54.420 But then precisely because he wasn't like that, and precisely because he pivoted to this completely, you know, done a complete 180, O'Toole, you know, he, he lost, he basically lost trust with, with the base, right?
00:13:06.100 With the, with the people that elected him.
00:13:08.580 And so he had, and so he had what was, you could basically describe as an authenticity problem by the end of it.
00:13:14.460 If Polly was to run on this kind of thing, I don't think he has that problem precisely because he can, I think this kind of message is appealing to enough of the kind of conservative base that will still, you know, resonate with the base.
00:13:26.540 But where I really think there's kind of potential for this kind of message is it really has growth potential beyond just kind of traditional, traditional Tory voters.
00:13:36.820 One thing that I don't want to tease it too much in here, but I'm working on another piece right now that I'm hoping to expand on this point a bit.
00:13:43.640 But, but the kinds of, so the, if, if, if he goes for this kind of, this anti-gatekeepers coalition, I'm kind of suggesting he should, you know, it's, in some sense, it's a, it's a populist movement, a populist coalition.
00:13:58.440 But the people I think he should target aren't necessarily what you might think of as kind of the traditional populist voters, right?
00:14:04.480 You know, when we think about places like the UK and the US, you know, we're thinking about kind of like rust belt, you know, maybe rural, like older people that these are the kind of prime populist voters.
00:14:16.860 And I'm actually not so sure that that's the people he should be targeting with this message so much.
00:14:22.000 I think the kind of people that will be most open to what he's saying are quite likely to be younger Canadians.
00:14:28.480 It's quite likely to be a fairly kind of diverse, like ethnically quite a diverse set of people.
00:14:35.700 I'm thinking kind of like the four nation kind of coalition.
00:14:39.700 These are the, like, these are people, you know, they're, they're younger, you know, they're struggling, you know, the cost of living is kind of, you know, threatening to swamp them.
00:14:48.440 They can't afford, they can't buy a house.
00:14:50.080 They've been priced out to the housing market.
00:14:51.580 You know, they get told by, by boomers that, you know, kind of wealthy to do boomers that, you know, if you can't afford gas on your car, just go, oh, just, just, just buy an electric vehicle as if it's that easy.
00:15:03.840 These, so these are the kind of people I think Poliette could really resonate with.
00:15:08.380 And so it's not necessarily, it's a kind of, it's a fairly, you might want to call it like an unorthodox coalition.
00:15:17.340 But I think it's one that has real potential, kind of real formidable electoral potential for him.
00:15:22.520 And one that, especially where you think about some of these voters, the places like the GTA and the 905, if he could find a way to successfully kind of mobilize his coalition, it could, it could propel him to government, you know, a big kind of resounding government.
00:15:36.480 So, you know, it's not, it's, it would be easier.
00:15:40.600 It's going to be, if, if Poliette wins, he's going to get painted as, you know, the next Trump, the next Johnson.
00:15:46.140 And so many of these comparisons are so silly when, when they're made by, you know, like media and people like that.
00:15:51.260 But in many ways, I think if, when people, if people try and do that to him, they're really going to kind of miss the, miss what's going on.
00:16:00.700 They might be quite shocked.
00:16:01.640 You know, they might wake up in 2025, whenever the next election is going to be now, and discover that kind of a coalition of people that they really weren't expecting might propel them to victory.
00:16:13.720 One of the interesting things that came out of the trucker convoy, I saw a poll that showed that the people who were the most sympathetic to the cause of the truckers were young Canadians, people under the age of 30.
00:16:24.800 Which, which, which seems a little counterintuitive, but I think that the way that you draw out that, that sort of coalition of people who, I mean, if you think about the last two years and what we've lost, you know, it's, it's hard for all of us.
00:16:36.940 But I think that the people that were hit the hardest are those who are in school, who are young, who are out there, you know, looking to live a life and get experiences and make friends and date and all this kind of stuff.
00:16:48.540 And so much of that was restricted that I don't think we've really properly calibrated just how much anger and resentment there is among that group of people.
00:16:58.000 Well, I want to chat a little bit more about this aspect that you're talking about with Aaron O'Toole and the authenticity issue.
00:17:05.220 I completely agree with your analysis.
00:17:06.940 And I think that that was certainly one of his many, many problems.
00:17:12.840 It seems like the sort of tried and true strategy for conservatives is to appeal to the base, the, you know, provide the red meat during the selection period where they're picking a new leader,
00:17:23.980 and then sort of moderate and appeal more to centrist voters during the general election.
00:17:29.280 It didn't work for Andrew Scheer.
00:17:31.140 It didn't work for Aaron O'Toole.
00:17:32.560 Do you think conservatives will learn this lesson?
00:17:35.340 Do you think that, that, that, that they will select a leader based on this?
00:17:39.880 Or do you think that they're doomed to continue to make this mistake?
00:17:43.460 I think, I think they're going to, I don't know if they're going to learn all the right lessons, but I think, you know, I would, you know, we're, it's still, you know, we're recording this in, in March.
00:17:53.400 So, you know, who knows what's going to happen in the next six months, but I still think this race is very much polyettes to lose. 1.00
00:17:59.780 I'd still be quite surprised if anyone else wins.
00:18:02.920 I do have to, I, you know, it's, it's quite, it's, it's quite funny watching some of the media kind of the race from non-conservatives.
00:18:12.040 Um, the people who they think, um, you know, there's, there's, there's nothing more, uh, uh, I mean, I find amusing, but also quite frustrating to get kind of, you know, this is who the conservative should, uh, should pick from people that are never, ever, ever going to vote conservative.
00:18:26.140 Right. Um, and I always think it's kind of like, um, it's the kind of, it's atheists giving advice to the church, right? Like, well, I'm never ever, you know, I don't believe in God and I'm never, ever, ever going to go to church. 0.94
00:18:35.760 But if only the Catholic church would become a bit more liberal and all these things, well, you know, I'd never become Catholic, but maybe I would just, you know, maybe I respect the church a bit more.
00:18:44.000 And so much of that advice feels like that to me, you're getting, uh, it doesn't mean you shouldn't, it just doesn't mean the conservative should only listen to, um, to, to, to conservatives.
00:18:53.860 I'm not saying they shouldn't take outside advice.
00:18:56.280 Um, but they should be very careful in some senses who they take that advice from, um, people that, you know, people that want a conservative party, lots of these people that want the kind of, you know, the kind of liberal light candidate.
00:19:08.280 And they might, you know, they, they think that that is the kind of, um, you know, they'll, they'll frame their arguments as like, this is what the conservatives need to do to win.
00:19:16.180 Um, but what they really mean is this is what the conservatives need to do so that they can be an opposition that I like a bit more.
00:19:21.500 Right.
00:19:22.440 Um, and I, I, I think they, they have to avoid that kind of, uh, they be very wary of that kind of advice.
00:19:28.380 And, uh, I do, I do think this time around, I get the sense that the base in general is quite sick of, uh, is quite wary of that.
00:19:35.620 They're quite sick of that.
00:19:36.480 Um, where I do think the conservatives need to learn, uh, where I think they need to do some real thinking, where I think they need to kind of, um, you know, do some serious kind of, uh, work and thinking for themselves is, um, you know, we try, we treat, uh, we treat, uh, we treat, you know, we treat, we treat people in different parts of the country as kind of the same.
00:19:58.140 If you're in Alberta, you must be this way.
00:19:59.880 If you're a Quebec, you must be this way. 1.00
00:20:01.800 If you're rural, you must be this way.
00:20:03.460 If you're urban, you must be this way.
00:20:04.720 Um, and I don't think, I think it's, it's such a kind of simplistic way of looking at it.
00:20:10.060 Um, one of the things I kind of think, uh, the conservatives would benefit, would, could do well, would benefit from, uh, and something where I think Polyev especially has potential to resonate, um, is think about the kinds of people that, um, that live in these kind of suburban writings in Toronto, where like realistically, they're going to have to do, have some breakthroughs if they're ever going to form government again.
00:20:31.780 Um, you know, there's, there's, the suburbs of Toronto are the most kind of diverse place, probably maybe one of the most diverse places in the world.
00:20:40.340 And I don't just mean in terms of kind of like different immigrant communities.
00:20:43.440 I mean, in terms of kind of, in terms of like, like class background as well, right?
00:20:47.660 The idea that there's a single kind of suburban voter, um, is silly, right?
00:20:52.200 There are rich suburban people, there are poor suburban people, there are younger suburban people, there are older suburban people.
00:20:57.700 And the idea that all these people will have the exact same kind of, like, there's a, there's a, there's a way to kind of please all those people as if they have kind of the same priorities and preferences, um, it's kind of, you know, it's never going to happen.
00:21:09.380 Um, and the conservatives are never, you know, the, um, too often it feels like, um, conservatives, they either, uh, they either don't want to expand the base at all, or they want to be liked by everyone.
00:21:20.040 Um, they don't need to be liked by everyone, right?
00:21:23.320 Um, you're never going to please everyone.
00:21:24.700 Um, so what, what I think they need to do is be looking at, um, uh, the kinds of people I'm talking about, this kind of, um, younger, more, more millennial, entirely millennial, but more millennial, um, young, younger, um, group of people that, you know, live in places like the GTA, uh, figure out the kinds of things that motivate those kinds of voters, uh, and tap into that.
00:21:47.600 Um, and I think what people will be shocked to learn is that, you know, people, um, might kind of, if, whenever I go to places like, uh, I was in, I was in Toronto a couple of weeks ago, uh, and I was in a place called, I was in Vaughn, so like Northern, Northern GTA, uh, and something that amazes me when you live somewhere like that, um, you know, I live in, so I live in Ottawa and I live in a fairly, I live downtown Ottawa, so I live in a fairly kind of bougie urban kind of area.
00:22:13.480 Uh, and I can, I can walk basically most, but I can walk to the grocery store, I can walk to the gym, um, so I have a car, but I don't use it all that much.
00:22:20.940 Um, but if you live somewhere like Vaughn, like you, you drive everywhere, right? That's just kind of how those places were built.
00:22:27.520 Um, and so if you're going to appeal to people like that, it's funny how, as much as kind of urban trendy people think that, you know, suburbs are full of people like them.
00:22:35.120 Um, um, in many ways, like, like people that live in kind of car, car, car oriented suburbs, places like that, um, they are, they live different lives to kind of urban, urban people, urban progressives, especially, right?
00:22:50.860 Um, and I think conservatives, if they actually tried to kind of figure out, um, a message that can resonate specifically with those kinds of people, I don't actually think that, um, I don't actually think that should be that difficult.
00:23:02.340 I think kind of conservative, small C conservative values should appeal to those people quite easily.
00:23:06.900 It's just a matter of kind of selling back, getting through to those people and actually selling them that.
00:23:12.380 Well, and getting in front of the message so that you're presenting yourself to the Canadian public and not letting the liberals define you.
00:23:19.280 And, you know, it's interesting because the type of coalition that you talked about, look back at the 2011, uh, electoral map and you'll see that Stephen Harper, like the GTA is all blue.
00:23:30.380 It's, it's, it's, it's really remarkable, um, how many of those seats went to the conservatives in 2011.
00:23:35.340 So, you know, it's, it's, it, I, I know so many people say, look, the Harper coalition's dead and you can't rerun on something that you use a decade ago, but, you know, clearly channeling something, um, that, that was, that was in that platform.
00:23:49.420 The, the, the idea of, you know, simplistic policies that appeal and actually help people in those parts of the country, uh, I think is great advice.
00:23:57.300 Uh, Ben, I want to sort of switch gears here because I, you know, you mentioned that you're doing your PhD and you're studying the Westminster system of government.
00:24:05.060 I get so many people emailing me and messaging me asking how it's possible, uh, for the type of sort of power grab or solidification coalition, whatever you want to call it, uh, that we saw between the NDP and the Trudeau liberals.
00:24:20.140 People, people, people ask, you know, is it, isn't, isn't our system set up, um, to sort of protect against these post-election, uh, jockeying of, uh, coalitions, but, uh, you, you, you're sort of the expert on this topic.
00:24:30.700 So I want to get your thoughts on that and maybe just more broadly, uh, what, what do you think is a good strategy?
00:24:36.440 What, uh, Trudeau and Singh have done here?
00:24:39.800 Um, yeah, yeah.
00:24:40.760 I'm going to be the kind of the, the pet end here that kind of pleases no one with an answer, but, um, uh, yeah, like, you know, this, so much of the kind of silly online.
00:24:50.140 Discussion over this is, you know, someone's calling it a coalition and then, you know, the Aaron worries of the world saying, well, that's not, that's not the correct word.
00:24:57.680 And then that kind of like back and forth over terms.
00:25:00.700 Um, you know, I, I think this is probably very, if, if, you know, the conservatives, you know, will be, are publicly as they should criticizing the agreement.
00:25:09.020 Um, you know, they're, you know, they probably stand to benefit from this agreement in a couple of years, um, given just given, you know, who they can now run against.
00:25:16.140 Um, uh, the, technically what's, so what's, what's actually being, uh, what's been agreed here is what's called a confidence and supply agreement, which is a fairly kind of common practice in, uh, Westminster systems.
00:25:28.640 Um, there's nothing technically kind of, uh, so both parties have signed, agreed to this, uh, confidence and supply agreement.
00:25:36.220 Um, it's not formal legislation or anything like that.
00:25:39.660 Um, so, you know, if one of the parties chooses to break it, they're not breaking the law or anything like that.
00:25:44.500 And there's no legislation doesn't have to be repealed to, to remove it.
00:25:48.380 Um, so it's, it's more of a kind of a gentleman's agreement, um, that they'll both promise to keep, but, uh, it could be, you know, the NDP could withdraw support at any time if they wanted to.
00:25:57.640 Uh, and more, more likely the liberals could, you know, if they see an opportunity, um, they could just break the agreement.
00:26:04.220 Um, that happened a couple of years ago in, uh, British Columbia when the, um, the NDP, the, the then, uh, the then minority NDP government that was backed by the greens, but had basically all of these agreements with, um, with the green party.
00:26:18.460 And just basically, uh, uh, I might be getting some of the details on this slightly wrong, but that they basically, you know, broke the agreement kind of betrayed the greens almost, and then they won a majority.
00:26:27.900 So, um, you know, that it's, this doesn't guarantee that the government lasts till 2025.
00:26:34.900 Um, but into, but I have to say the people I'm most surprised, but the, the, the, the move makes sense for the liberals because it, you know, it basically just gives them a close to a free hand as they're going to get in this parliament.
00:26:45.960 Right. It allows them to minimize, to avoid scrutiny, uh, the place to really watch where this, uh, how this is going to shake out is going to be in the committees.
00:26:54.000 Um, so, uh, in, if you go and read the actual, uh, agreement that they published, uh, publicly, um, they have a, they have a, uh, a mention of the, um, uh, how this is going to work in terms of committee work.
00:27:05.560 And there's some very kind of vague language in there about both parties will agree to not have any kind of, um, unnecessary obstruction in committees.
00:27:13.400 Uh, but you, you know, the liberals have not got a good track record with respect to committee work.
00:27:18.360 So, um, you know, they'll probably just use this as an excuse to kind of sideswipe any kind of like serious, uh, scrutiny in committees, which, which, uh, worries me a bit.
00:27:28.460 Um, but in terms of what the NDP gained from this, I just don't, um, you know, technically they'll gain some, you know, some of their policy priorities, you know, pharma care, dental care, all this kind of stuff.
00:27:38.280 Um, but, you know, there's nothing to actually force the liberals to do this.
00:27:42.520 Um, and, you know, if I was betting, I don't think we'll actually have, you know, dental care or pharma care two years from now, just based on, um, how the liberal government tends to operate.
00:27:50.980 We'll have some sort of, you know, promise to have it down the road, like a white paper or something.
00:27:56.560 Um, but the NDP of the party that I just don't understand, you know, the, the, the traditional, the traditional kind of self-understanding of the NDP has been, uh, you know, the conscience of parliament.
00:28:07.620 Um, so, you know, whether you, you know, I'm not a member of the NDP, but, um, you know, they were traditionally thought of themselves as kind of the principled conscience in parliament that held the government to account.
00:28:17.980 Um, you know, this is just kind of the betrayal of that almost, right.
00:28:22.080 Um, uh, you know, Singh, I don't know if Singh, I confess, I think Singh is kind of a, um, uh, quite far from the, his, his, his politics seem quite different from, uh, the politics that, you know, used to define that party 30, 40 years ago.
00:28:36.380 If you ask me, um, he seemed more interested in, uh, kind of being, you know, you know, more interested in being recognized by people like AOC in the U.S., um, and kind of, you know, playing, playing, uh, playing gay online games and stuff with American progressive.
00:28:52.080 Uh, than they actually seems in kind of defending the interests of kind of working class Canadians.
00:28:56.700 Um, so again, I think there's a real, um, you know, traditionally the conservatives have done well when, uh, when the, when the NDP are stronger, right.
00:29:05.400 When it splits the kind of left wing vote.
00:29:07.340 Um, I kind of think there's an opportunity, there might be an opportunity here for the conservatives to really try and go after some of those, um, kind of working class votes that, um, that might feel kind of increasingly kind of adrift and betrayed by the modern NDP, right.
00:29:21.720 This kind of, uh, this working class party, that's more of a kind of urban progressive public sector union party.
00:29:27.480 Now, um, there's opportunities for the conservatives there.
00:29:30.780 I think if they, if they're smart, but they can exploit, um, and just, just one more quick thing before I, uh, just to go back to something for a second.
00:29:38.780 Um, I think the, so, uh, there's something to this, um, this idea that, you know, you, um, the, the Harper coalition, the Harper, the Harper recipe can't just be redone, right.
00:29:49.060 At times of change. And I think that's definitely true. Um, my point about kind of say, thinking about the suburbs as themselves, very diverse places in all sorts of ways is that you could still rebuild that kind of Harper coalition, so to speak, in terms of kind of the seats that you're winning.
00:30:03.760 Uh, but you might be able to, I think that kind of the path for the conservatives to do that, especially under someone like Polyev, um, it might be with different people, right.
00:30:12.360 Um, it doesn't, you can win those writings and win them in very different ways. Um, and that's, that's so, instead of thinking of, um, kind of a book is if I had a, if I have a criticism of maybe someone like Scheer, um, Scheer's, Scheer's the 20, was it in the 2019 election, um, that really did feel like a kind of rehash of Harperism, right.
00:30:33.660 It didn't really feel like there'd been kind of much new thinking or fresh ideas plugged in there. Um, what's you, I think you can still kind of keep the broad kind of template for where you need to win, uh, and then infuse it with kind of new ideas, uh, new, new efforts to reach different people.
00:30:49.960 People that might not have been persuadable reachable 10, 15 years ago, uh, that, you know, the world's changed a lot in the last 10 years, five years, less than 10 years.
00:30:59.220 Right. So, um, um, yeah, I think, uh, to, to bring it back to the, uh, the question of the NDP and liberal agreement, um, you know, it's, um, I think there's some, I think if the conservatives play their hand right here, there might be some real opportunities for them.
00:31:15.560 Um, but they, but, you know, it requires them playing their hand right to do that. So we'll see.
00:31:21.080 Yeah. I, I tend to agree with you that the, uh, pact or the agreement is a good thing for the conservatives in a number of ways. It also gives them more time because I knew during the 2021 election, Justin Trudeau said that, uh, in minority government, this only tend to last 18 months or so.
00:31:36.220 And so there was sort of this imperative, okay, we need to be ready for the next election. It could happen as soon as late 2022. Well, this sort of says, okay, we can, conservatives, you can take your time in selecting the right leader, giving that leader time to sort of set the stage with, with your agenda.
00:31:52.640 Just final question for you. Cause I, I don't mean to pick on Aaron O'Toole. I think he had a tough, uh, job that, that he was tasked with. Uh, one of the things early on he said was that he really did want to appeal to those working class voters and that he wanted that to be like, I remember in an early interview, he was asked if, what, what do you thought about the comparisons with him to Trump?
00:32:13.800 Because obviously, like you said, they're kind of lazy, but they're always going to come for any conservative leader. And, and, and he, he, he didn't like, he didn't push that away. He, he actually said, look, there's a lot of things that Trump did that I want to replicate something along those lines. Um, whereas with his, with his, um, the way that he ran and his policies and his set of, uh, priorities, I didn't see much that, that really did appeal to, to the working class.
00:32:39.580 So I, I wondering if you could provide some like suggestions in terms of ideas, policies, uh, things that conservatives can do or say to, uh, attract and keep more, um, of these people that are disaffected by Jagmeet Singh and the NDP who don't feel like they have a home in the modern view. I don't, I don't even know just as a side, I don't know if the NDP is really going to survive. I mean, at this point, it seems like so many of the priorities that they have are mirrored with the liberals.
00:33:07.480 It seems almost redundant to have two parties now. I see this as an outsider. So I don't, I don't know if there's, you know, I, I, I'm not speaking as an NDP member of vote. I've never been part of that party, but I can't imagine really what, what, what the purpose of having to, but yeah, if you could, if you could, uh, maybe comment on the future of the NDP and then also comment on what you think conservatives can do to capture this voting block.
00:33:29.280 Yeah. Um, yeah, sure. Um, yeah, I, I agree. I don't, I don't, um, you know, I'm not, like I said, I'm not a member of the NDP. I, I don't understand what they're kind of the reason for their existence anymore. Um, um, you, sooner or later, you would think that that's, uh, you know, things that cannot go on forever don't go on forever. And so I won't suspect sooner or later that, um, that will, something will, something will happen there with them that will force them to kind of figure out who they are. Um, I don't think it's true that they,
00:33:58.920 they don't have a constituency anymore. I think they do. The problem is that constituency is just not, um, you know, the, the NDP are more than anything else now a kind of party of kind of very urban, very progressive, um, you know, culturally very radical, uh, people. Right. And there, you know, there's, there's, there's a constituency for that in certain places. Um, those are the kinds of people I think that the NDP that dominate kind of, you know, how the NDP think, um, you know, who tends to vote for them now. Um, so I,
00:34:28.840 I suspect they can survive as kind of a kind of whatever, whatever you want to call that kind of party now. Um, but like you say, you know, in many ways that makes them not all that different from the kind of modern liberal party. Um, in terms of kind of how I think the conservatives can kind of, you know, capitalize on some of this. Um, I think there's a couple of things. So I, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll put in a word, a defense here for, for Aaron O'Toole for a second. Um, I think some of the moves he made, especially early on, uh, in his, uh, just after he got elected, um, um,
00:34:58.820 were in those kinds of directions we're talking about here. And I think they were good. Um, I think the problem with O'Toole was that by the end of it, he tried, um, he tried to, he put on so many different masks and faces and costumes to see if any of them would stick. Right. Um, because he tried that one, he tried a couple other ones. Um, I think he, yeah, that again, it goes back to that kind of authenticity problem. Uh, but I do think he was onto something with that. Um, and I would, you know, I would, and I would still, um, you know, I, when the, during the election, I wrote pretty,
00:35:28.820 uh, positively about, um, the conservative parties platform they put out. Um, you know, I didn't like everything in it and there was plenty of stuff I would have changed with it. Um, but I thought, I actually thought there was some quite, there was an attempt to do some kind of original, um, new stuff in that platform. Um,
00:35:45.480 especially around kind of working class, uh, labor stuff. Um, some of the stuff that they championed around, um, uh, some of the stuff to do with, uh, uh, some of the stuff around unions, not all of it. Some of the stuff around unions, I think was quite interesting. Um, certainly wouldn't have pleased everyone in the party. Um, it didn't, um, but I think there was stuff to work with there. Um, one place where I think, uh, federal conservatives could look, um, is that, and there is, there would be a role for the feds on some of this, uh, is to go
00:36:15.480 look at some of the work that, uh, Ontario, the minister of, um, I forget his exact title, but the minister of labor in Ontario, Monty McNaughton. Um, he's really managing to cut, he's carving out a space right now on some of the stuff. Um, he's putting, you know, it's obviously there's jurisdictional issues here. So the feds, you know, they don't control kind of skills training and stuff like that. Um, uh, all that much. Uh, but, you know, McNaughton's done a lot of really, really good stuff around, uh, skilled trades around that reforming colleges, you know, make them more kind of suited for that kind of
00:36:45.460 stuff. Uh, they've done some good stuff recently on kind of like gig work, you know, the future of work and the gig economy. Um, and I think that is exactly the kind of, when I say that the conservatives need to be reaching kind of new people, younger people, um, you know, gig, gig work, so to speak, I think is for lots of people, that is the future. Uh, and there's, there's bad, there's downsides to that and there's good sides to that. Right. Um, I don't think it's all bad. Um, you know, it means you get to, some people really like it because, you know, they can, uh, jobs where they kind of get to choose their own hours,
00:37:14.620 that they can work a hundred hours, one week, and then, you know, 10 hours the next, if they need to do something else. Um, so I think, you know, some people kind of like the kind of flexibility that comes with that kind of work. Um, but the biggest challenge for big work, I think is the kind of precarity of it. Right. Um, you know, there's no kind of, um, it's harder to have kind of stability in that kind of work. It's harder to build kind of like long-term plans. Um, so some of the stuff that, uh, McNaughton's been doing around, uh, just kind of tweaking kind of, uh,
00:37:44.620 welcoming to big work. Uh, I think there's good stuff to be done there. Um, obviously there's, again, there's jurisdictional issues here about what the Feds can do, uh, but there's definitely, there's, there's definitely opportunities down there. And so federally, I think, uh, looking to kind of the work that North is doing, it'd be, uh, uh,
00:38:00.620 would be one good thing they could do. Uh, but if there's a, if there's a bigger kind of, and this goes back to what I was saying earlier about, um, some of the Brexit stuff, um, you know, parts of what this is going to take is going to be, uh, putting kind of, like I say, flesh on the bones, like a substantive policy agenda, uh, that actually helps the kinds of people that you're trying to target in real, real material ways. Um, but a bigger picture, part of this picture is a broader kind of cultural questions and cultural shifts. Um,
00:38:30.100 so much, so much of the kind of, uh, so much of what I think is actually driving some of these shifts is there's a kind of, there's an economic and kind of like a material story. You can tell yourself about it, but there's also the other side to the story is a kind of cultural story about the kinds of the changing values of kind of cultural elites versus kind of ordinary people. Um, and so there's, and that is where I actually think there are some real, real opportunities for the conservatives. Um, uh, you know, we've seen the,
00:38:59.860 the liberals and the NDP have both gone this direction, right? But there's a, there's a real, there's a real kind of vacuum right now, uh, that the conservative should fill, um, on kind of what you might, what I would, you know, it, it, it would get painted by kind of like mainstream media as kind of like culture war, culture warrior, um, cultural conservatism. But what I would actually say is like a very moderate kind of mainstream cultural conservatism that I think actually is a kind of the kind of, the kinds of cultural values that are shared by most, like this majority of Canadians, at least. Um,
00:39:29.840 you know, I, I, I, I think about the kind of, um, you know, the, what happened with the flag last year, right? We had the flag at half mass for like, what, six months, just, just ludicrous. Right. Um, and, you know, we basically got into that mess because the, you know, the liberals did like, what was it, you know, initially like a nice gesture. Sure. Um, you know, it was just a performative gesture in the end, right? And then they get themselves into this mess of, well, we can't raise the flag because that means, uh, you know, we don't care about racism anymore. It was basically kind of like,
00:39:58.000 what it seemed like they kind of trap they got themselves into. Um, I think there's a real opportunity
00:40:03.440 for conservatives to kind of reclaim, uh, become the kind of the patriotic party, um, become the party of
00:40:10.280 kind of, you know, uh, the party that says, you know, Canada might not be a perfect country, but Canada is
00:40:14.520 a good country and we should be proud of this country, be proud, you know, the fact that, um, people want to
00:40:20.300 come here, the fact that, you know, this is the kind of country where people, uh, want to, and, you know,
00:40:25.020 should be able to lead and can lead free, good and free lives. Um, that kind of, you know, it used to
00:40:30.720 be, you know, the, the, the party of the flag in some ways used to be the liberals, right? In so many
00:40:35.140 ways they owned that they own the flag, they owned all the kind of hallmarks or national identity, the
00:40:40.280 charter, um, constitution, healthcare, you name it, right? Like the liberals kind of own these kind of
00:40:45.580 symbols of, you know, what it meant to be Canadian, but it's kind of, as the kind of, it's kind of
00:40:49.620 culturally, as elites kind of move in this kind of increasingly kind of, uh, more radical kind of
00:40:54.620 direction culturally, whether, you know, they reject, um, you know, Canada becoming, you know, and it's
00:41:00.660 hard, some of these people think of Canada as this kind of illegitimate, um, you know, settler colonial
00:41:05.320 estate, um, that leaves so much kind of cultural space, right? For, uh, for normal people, um, that
00:41:13.360 fits kind of what most normal people kind of think about. Um, and that is something I think the
00:41:18.480 conservatives really need to kind of figure out how to, um, how to take advantage of. Uh, I don't think
00:41:23.940 they do, I don't think they need to become like radical culture warriors. Um, even though that's
00:41:28.740 how they'll get painted if they, if they do anything like this. Um, I think they just need
00:41:32.880 to become kind of the unabashed party of kind of, uh, Canadian values, so to speak. Um, and 20 years
00:41:38.920 ago, I don't know if they necessarily would have been able to get away with doing that because
00:41:41.920 I think the liberal party of 20 years ago was much more kind of culturally moderate in that sense.
00:41:46.920 Uh, now I'm not so sure. Um, and so if the conservative, so, um, you know, it's sounds
00:41:52.980 kind of maybe counterintuitive, but I think one way to reach some of these new voters is
00:41:56.780 precisely to become that new, um, I wrote in the recent national post column that, um,
00:42:01.840 there's something to this kind of this, this, uh, this classic kind of, you know, the conservatives
00:42:06.720 need to moderate in order to win. Um, I think that's true. The problem is they let all the
00:42:11.860 wrong people define what it means for them to moderate and become moderate on. They need to,
00:42:15.500 they need to define for themselves what it means to be moderate and something like this
00:42:19.400 is a classic, perfect example of what it would mean to be a kind of define we're the moderate
00:42:24.800 party in, in your own image, right? You know, we are the party of Canadian values. We're the
00:42:29.440 party of the flag. We're the party that believes in this country. Um, there, there is so much
00:42:34.160 ground for them to kind of carve out there. And so I'm not, I'm not a strategist, right?
00:42:38.120 I don't understand the kind of the nitty gritties of exactly how you would, you know, create
00:42:41.940 messaging and, um, how you, how exactly you would go about doing that. But, um, I think
00:42:47.560 that if there was one way to kind of really kind of accelerate some of these shifts, uh,
00:42:51.340 and really try and take advantage of them, uh, that's, that would be the route to go down
00:42:55.240 for them.
00:42:56.280 Well, we have, we have a prime minister who says not, not just that Canada is a country
00:43:01.000 that was formed on genocide. Um, but he says that Canada is actively committing genocide.
00:43:05.180 He, he agreed with the 2017 recommendations of the missing and murdered Aboriginal women 1.00
00:43:10.660 report, which was a report that was necessary. However, the people who, who put it together
00:43:15.720 radically left-wing, um, part of their recommendations was that admit, admitting that a genocide
00:43:21.520 is still going on today. And, uh, Trudeau said that he agreed with that. Um, so, so, so
00:43:26.420 talk about the need for a moderate, uh, just to counter our crazy, insane, woke, uh, leftist
00:43:33.780 sort of mindset. And I think that's right. Anecdotally, uh, last year at Canada Day, you
00:43:38.840 know, amidst all of the sort of consternation about Canada and this, this sort of horrible
00:43:43.280 irreconcilable past, uh, cancel Canada Day movements, uh, toppling statues, uh, you know,
00:43:50.080 the, the, the number of people who were out on the streets on Canada Day celebrating
00:43:54.220 unabashedly, uh, you know, the, the, the, the horns honking all night, the fireworks going
00:44:00.540 on. Um, I don't know what it was like in Ottawa, but in Toronto, it was like an absolute
00:44:05.220 party. And, uh, part, part of that might've been just that people were cooped up from COVID
00:44:09.740 for too long and they were finally able to go out at that time. But really, I, I saw
00:44:13.900 a big outpouring of, uh, sort of Canadian national, nationalistic or patriotic, uh, impulse
00:44:20.480 there. And then we saw it again during the freedom convoy. So I think, I think definitely
00:44:24.380 right. I think there's something to that, that the liberals have sort of abandoned their
00:44:28.780 traditional kind of base as being the party of Canada and all these symbols that they
00:44:32.540 themselves brought in, um, that they're now apparently ashamed of and don't want anything
00:44:35.920 to do with and, and can't bring themselves to, uh, promote. So I, I think that's great.
00:44:41.720 I think, um, uh, hopefully Ben, the, uh, listeners listen to the advice that you're giving and, uh,
00:44:48.480 appreciate your time today. Appreciate your, um, writing that we can find, uh, in the hub
00:44:52.480 and the national posts. So thank you so much for joining us. That's, uh, Ben Woodviden
00:44:57.400 and, uh, I'm Candace Malcolm. This is the Candace Malcolm Show.